0:14

Hey , I'm Ellecia , your non-monogamous relationship

0:17

coach . Welcome to the podcast where

0:19

my friends and I chat about our relationships

0:21

enthusiastic , non-monogamy

0:23

polyamory swinging kink

0:25

and our lives . You'll get a candid

0:28

peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside

0:30

the box . And in case you're still wondering

0:32

, nope , we're not monogamous Welcome

0:44

to our newest episode . I'm so happy you're

0:46

here listening . Today I'm chatting with Hunter

0:48

and Butcher , the hosts of the Polly Pocket podcast

0:51

, and a married UK-based

0:53

couple who are navigating

0:55

life with children and a strong

0:57

desire to support and grow the Polly community . So

0:59

on their show they offer practical advice wrapped

1:02

in their genuine experiences . Their

1:05

journey into polyamory highlights the importance

1:07

of self-discovery and clear communication

1:10

in non-monogamous relationships this

1:12

thing that I keep telling you guys about over and over

1:14

and over right , they

1:17

actually moved from traditional marriages

1:19

to other people into

1:22

the realm of polyamory and they're here to share

1:24

their insights on everything from handling jealousy

1:26

to raising kids in a poly family to

1:28

building strong , open relationships . So

1:31

I hope you enjoy this very fun

1:33

and down to earth chat with Hunter and Butcher as

1:35

we discuss the ins and outs of adopting

1:37

a non-monogamous lifestyle post-divorce . Whether

1:40

you're curious about polyamory or you're deep in

1:42

your own journey , these stories

1:44

and these tips and this

1:46

light-hearted conversation will offer

1:49

support and perspective . Enjoy

1:52

Excellent Right

1:54

Like just so we have it . I often do that

1:56

. I'll start talking to people and then

2:02

I'm like man .

2:02

I wish we had recorded that .

2:04

Exactly , exactly . So I

2:06

um , where

2:09

do I start ? Okay , so I uh

2:14

, I was married monogamously

2:16

for 13 years and I got divorced . And then

2:18

I was like 35 , had two kids , had a house

2:20

, had a business . I was like , man , I'm not doing that again , I'm

2:22

not getting married again . So I

2:25

guess I'll just be a slut and I'll be honest

2:27

about it , cause that seems like the right thing to do . And

2:30

then , like three months later , I met my second husband

2:32

, who was like yeah , I'm polyamorous and I'm dating this couple

2:34

and I have these friends and you know whatever . And I was like

2:36

, uh , cool , great , awesome , um

2:39

. And then I fell in love with

2:41

him and was like , oh fuck , now

2:44

I have to deal with all this . Like , like

2:46

, I see the ideal , uh huh

2:48

, I know what I want to be doing and also

2:51

my emotions are telling me that I shouldn't be doing

2:53

this and that there's lots of bad things happening

2:55

. And my brain is like , no , there's everything's

3:01

great . And my emotions are like , no , everything sucks . So

3:03

I was doing a lot of work around that . I was also doing

3:05

a lot of work around sexuality and I was studying

3:08

under Layla Martin and

3:10

she came out with her

3:13

coaching , her

3:16

coach like coaches certificate

3:18

program , which was like

3:21

a year long program that took me two years to

3:23

do , cause it was really in depth

3:25

.

3:26

And you're 35 , with two children at this point , or

3:29

a little bit older potentially , and that's a

3:31

lot to deal with as well . Yeah

3:33

, yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , exactly

3:36

.

3:36

So so yeah , I went through that and I thought

3:39

I was going to be like a women's sexual empowerment

3:41

coach , like that's what I was going for . And then

3:43

, like all I was talking about was relationships

3:45

and non-monogamy , and it's like , oh

3:47

, that might be the thing that I actually have

3:49

a passion for . And so I've been

3:52

coaching folks around

3:54

relationships , non-monogamy

3:56

, transitions , right

3:58

like moving from one relationship

4:00

paradigm to another , for like about

4:03

five years now okay

4:06

, very interesting okay

4:08

and is it ?

4:09

is it busy work like , do you

4:12

get like booked up

4:14

or is it difficult to find ?

4:15

people . No , I mean , it

4:18

took a while to build up right , like I've

4:20

been running the podcast for two years , which

4:22

I started to get people

4:24

to know who I am , and

4:27

so I I like

4:29

spent the last I

4:32

think it was like three and a half years

4:34

where I was doing I also owned a salon and

4:36

I was doing so I like was slowly transitioning

4:38

into coaching , and so last year I closed

4:41

the salon and now I'm at like

4:43

a full-time level

4:45

. Now , when I say full-time in

4:48

coaching , I mean like I will typically

4:50

have about 10 clients and

4:53

maybe a group program running . Um

4:55

, okay , yeah , so it's not like

4:57

actually full-time . I work like 20 hours a week

4:59

, maybe , right , but I mean a lot of . It is

5:01

like content creation

5:03

and marketing . Like that's the the

5:06

biggest thing I want to be coaching . But , like , in

5:09

order to coach at the level that like

5:12

you want to do , you also have to like Market

5:14

the crap out of yourself yeah

5:17

, yeah , yeah , absolutely

5:19

.

5:19

And this is where we're kind of um , I

5:22

think we're coming to at the moment , because

5:24

we're looking at sort

5:26

of tapping into the UK market around

5:28

the coaching but the the so

5:31

the niche would be looking at couples

5:34

transitioning , because that's the experience that we've

5:36

got right , that we did it together and

5:39

I think it would be a bit unfair of

5:41

us to potentially go as a single

5:43

person . We did

5:45

do it together , sure

5:47

we

5:50

actually did he

5:53

just winded me up . But

5:57

yeah , I think it would be

5:59

unfair of us to uh

6:02

try and we

6:04

can try and understand where a single person

6:06

coming into it would potentially

6:08

be , but we do not have that experience

6:10

and that has not been our life , so

6:13

to speak . So we draw on what we've

6:15

been through and then apply the coaching techniques

6:17

etc to cetera , to that .

6:19

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . I mean that's

6:22

, that's basically all . It is

6:24

Right . Like I have , um , I

6:26

have uh programs around like jealousy

6:28

, and I have a program around , like I have a program

6:30

that's for women , um , just

6:33

to build up their confidence . Cause

6:41

I was like , oh my God , so much of what I'm seeing is like all of this comparison and

6:43

like so much of the the struggles and issues were coming

6:45

up because of like I actually

6:47

just kind of don't feel great about myself

6:49

, and then I was fine until I

6:51

had people to compare myself

6:54

to , and now everything

6:56

sucks yeah

6:58

, but that is such a social

7:00

issue .

7:01

I find that you probably are crucially

7:05

aware of this with the work that you do , but women

7:07

are effectively pitted against

7:09

one another . We're not designed to to

7:11

build well , sorry , we're not encouraged

7:13

to build one another up and to be

7:15

there for one another . And I think the early

7:18

part of our journey and I think this is what's

7:20

it was a real surprise for you is that we

7:22

actually had a , um , a girlfriend as

7:24

almost thruple

7:26

type territory , but not quite

7:29

as easy as you say . It is it , but it's easy yeah

7:31

as a thruple

7:33

dynamic , um , and

7:36

I was so insanely jealous of her , even

7:38

though we were both bisexual . We were literally 10

7:40

days apart in age . But the difference was

7:42

is that I was a mother of two and

7:45

I felt even though I helped run

7:47

a business and you know , I play

7:49

football and I have all these amazing things

7:51

going for me , including

7:53

you living with you full-time yes , um

7:56

, but

7:58

, um , it was that thing of I

8:00

was so jealous of her , and it wasn't

8:02

her necessarily just being with him

8:04

, it was the idea of her

8:07

just being able to do what she wanted

8:09

when she wanted , without any permission

8:11

from anybody . And it drove

8:13

a wedge . Yeah , yeah

8:15

, yeah , yeah , yeah yeah , it's so

8:17

hard .

8:18

I similarly . We have a triad as

8:20

well , but ours survived

8:22

that and has been like seven years now

8:24

. But like yeah , I was

8:26

like cool , I'm the mom

8:29

of everybody now

8:31

. Great , yeah , yeah

8:33

, awesome , yeah

8:36

. I just wanted more children

8:38

then my girlfriend started calling my husband

8:41

daddy and I was like nope , I'm drawing a

8:43

line here .

8:44

No , I already have

8:46

children it's

8:49

funny , that's a hard no here as well , isn't

8:51

it ? We're like absolutely not .

8:52

We can't do that , nope , can't we've

8:55

never talked about it , but amongst most

8:58

of our community

9:00

, yeah I play father figure

9:02

. We don't

9:04

think about it because it's just like it's just me being

9:06

me . But you think about some of the one who's got like

9:08

the up until recently , the

9:10

, the stable , successful job . I'm

9:12

the one who does like I'm good

9:14

with the kids and do cleaning around the house

9:17

.

9:17

I do a bunch of other things one

9:19

of our friends did say to us once leave

9:21

some of the parenting for us after

9:23

we'd made a like a harry potter style

9:27

cake for halloween party that

9:29

took days to make . That's

9:32

just what we do . They're like , just stop it . Just stop

9:35

it . We're just having fun , we're

9:37

having a great time . No , no , no , you're showing

9:39

the rest of us off , not a competition

9:42

but I'm winning .

9:43

But do they call you for like car problems

9:46

?

9:48

Computer tech stuff , yeah , all the geeky shit

9:50

.

9:50

That's my turf Yep

9:53

, yep , yep , yep , yep and

9:55

emotional level headed

9:57

support , I

10:01

think one of my partners . What did he say about you ? He's

10:03

a dickhead ? Yeah , well , he does say that . But he also

10:05

said um , he

10:08

said something about how you . You

10:11

always have such a level opinion on

10:13

things and I can't remember what it was . But he said to me I'm

10:15

gonna go talk to Hunter about this because

10:18

he's got such a good

10:20

, clear view on big , complicated

10:23

problems and I just

10:25

thought that's so nice that he

10:27

would think to talk to him

10:29

rather than me .

10:30

It's nice to be even nicer . I can remember who it was

10:33

he said it

10:35

.

10:35

Give me that validation give

10:37

me , give me that validation . How ?

10:38

good , I am , it's great tell

10:41

me more .

10:41

Did you screenshot it ?

10:43

I can , if you want , forever

10:47

. Yeah

10:55

, sorry , that was a slight sort of we

10:57

digressed , but it was just interesting

10:59

to pick your brains yeah , yeah

11:02

, I , I love it .

11:03

I love doing this work . I love talking

11:05

about relationships and I

11:07

mean it's not even like just non-monogamy , it's just

11:09

like I had . I

11:11

had a , um , an assistant working with

11:13

me for several years who , uh

11:16

, is monogamous , and she was like my entire

11:19

relationship is so much better because

11:21

of all , like all the information that

11:23

you put out there , like it's not just non-monogamy

11:26

stuff , this is like how-to relationship

11:28

at a much better level than

11:30

uh , than we're taught .

11:32

Yeah , yeah yep , 100

11:34

, 100 and in fact

11:36

, um that I've got a group of girls

11:38

from the football team who know not all

11:40

of them , but they all sort

11:43

of know but these three

11:45

really know the in-depth . I'll be like , oh

11:47

, I'm dating this person or I'm doing this

11:49

or whatever , and they

11:52

just sit back and go wow

11:54

, that's

11:56

so , so cool

11:58

. But it's because of how we

12:01

interact with one another . They see us

12:03

every sunday . They've met partners

12:05

of ours , they've heard about partners

12:08

. For example , you ran from

12:10

your date a couple of weekends ago 18

12:13

miles to come and watch

12:15

me at a football match and he just turned up

12:17

all springy and light and happy and full

12:19

of joy and everybody was just like having

12:22

had no sleep right . I'm like , yeah

12:24

, he was with his girlfriend last night , he's fine

12:26

um , it's full of energy

12:29

now .

12:29

Yeah , he's having a great time

12:31

so , but then also

12:34

someone else , another one of our play

12:36

partners , came to watch male

12:38

, came to watch you at the match as well , so it was kind of

12:40

fun . So I spent , I was knackered , needed

12:43

food and I'm chatting to this bloke who then that

12:46

was on the sunday , and then last friday he came

12:48

around and you two had fun

12:50

.

12:50

Yeah , with his partner as well . Yeah

12:53

, it was . Yeah , it's just .

12:56

You just think it opens up so many possibilities

12:58

, right , it's not just it's

13:00

not just that , though , because we had we talked about it on

13:03

this week's episode , I think , when we

13:05

record ours on a monday night and then it goes out

13:07

the following monday morning

13:09

so I've got a full week to edit some crap

13:11

. Um , and we're

13:13

just thinking about the fringe benefits you get about

13:15

managing your , your feelings

13:18

around these things is if you , unless

13:20

you put yourself in a position to learn and grow

13:22

, you never get the chance

13:24

to flex that muscle . You've grown in polyamory

13:26

in a completely different environment , and it was

13:29

in . It was football . It was actually , uh

13:31

, last sunday's match , a different match , where

13:33

you were playing shit . Oh god , it was terrible

13:35

and she

13:38

was sitting under the page and about five minutes to take it off

13:40

because you were crap , but not like

13:42

. But about a year ago that would have caused like a multi-day

13:45

meltdown . This was like nope

13:47

, that's fine . I , I understand the reasons

13:50

and I I'm being a grown-up about

13:52

it and that's fine . It's like , yeah , that

13:55

doesn't come from . I mean , yes , that can come from other

13:57

sources , but in this case it comes from

13:59

being able to understand

14:01

someone's point of view , not react emotionally

14:04

, and move forward in a growth format

14:07

.

14:07

And even if you do react emotionally because I was having

14:10

, I was holding it together and then the coach

14:12

came and talked to me and then I started crying

14:14

and he was like don't do that , please

14:18

don't cry , started crying and

14:20

he was like don't know , you're

14:22

fine , please don't cry . I said I completely respect your

14:24

decision and I totally understand why

14:26

you took me off , because if I was you I would

14:28

have done um . But then it got him to open

14:30

up to me . He was like I don't think I've ever told

14:32

you this , but when I was um a

14:34

youngster , I played rugby and I

14:37

used to spend most of

14:39

the time sat on the bench and I didn't understand

14:41

why , and no one ever talked

14:43

to me about it . Um , and

14:46

yeah , so it was nice that he actually came over and we

14:48

we could have the grown-up conversation

14:50

yeah yeah , yeah , yeah

14:52

oh , I

14:54

love that .

14:55

The emotional growth we get to do

14:57

is so wonderful . I

15:00

mean hard but freaking wonderful

15:02

. The outcomes

15:05

are wonderful .

15:06

Exactly and unforeseen , I think

15:09

as well . Yeah , yeah , yeah yeah

15:11

, amazing .

15:12

Okay , I'm curious

15:14

, which is why I have a podcast . I'm okay

15:16

.

15:17

Yes , I'm curious .

15:18

Yeah , which is why I have a podcast

15:21

. I'm curious .

15:22

What I thought for one moment . Sorry , there's

15:25

a small child coming downstairs .

15:26

Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , small

15:29

child .

15:31

Go parent . She

15:33

did this the last time we were recording as well

15:35

. I'm sure she knows yeah , yeah

15:37

, oh yeah . And time we were recording as well . I'm sure she knows

15:39

yeah , yeah , oh yeah . And . And she is a child that doesn't like wearing

15:41

clothes to bed as well , so I

15:45

understand that completely I totally

15:47

get it who

15:50

does , I think . I think she's learned it

15:52

from us and we mentioned this the other day

15:55

to someone . They were like how could you possibly sleep

15:57

naked ? I'm like how can you not ?

15:59

what is wrong with you ? I

16:01

get blankets that feel good . I don't know . That's

16:03

how . Yeah , I

16:06

have soft blankets .

16:07

I have soft sheets yeah , like

16:09

we are lucky , like that amazing

16:14

, it won't be

16:17

much longer . How old can ask how old were

16:19

your kids when you were 35 and

16:21

you decided to step into all of this ?

16:24

Yeah , they were three

16:30

and five . Okay , yeah

16:32

, three and five . They're now

16:34

13 and 15 . Okay

16:36

, and I

16:39

have just , you know , there's just

16:41

normal life for them . Yeah

16:44

, yeah , yeah . We

16:46

have , you know , different partners around and

16:48

, like I said , our girlfriend has been

16:50

around for like seven years , so she's

16:52

just part of the family . And then we have other friends

16:54

that come and go , but they're just , you know , they're

16:56

friends , it's not . Yeah , yeah

16:59

, yeah .

16:59

Weird . We have other friends that that come and go , but they're just

17:01

.

17:01

You know they're friends . It's not .

17:02

Yeah , yeah , yeah , weird or anything , yeah no , yeah , just like any

17:04

friend , regardless of whether it's yeah

17:06

monogamous or whatever . Yeah , we're very much the same

17:08

and and and that um take

17:11

on things . But yes , sorry , we were distracted

17:13

. You had a question . Oh , what

17:15

was my ?

17:15

question my . What was my

17:17

question ? What was my question ? My question was

17:20

oh , just about

17:22

your , like your relationship structure

17:24

, like , um , have you guys been

17:27

open a long time ? What does that ? What does that look

17:29

like ?

17:31

yeah , sure , so , uh , we got into

17:33

it , uh , just like into

17:35

the pandemic , so about three and a half years ago , maybe

17:37

four years , in june classic

17:39

uh

17:42

, great timing yeah , it

17:44

was wonderful , really , really well planned

17:46

. It was a great idea um , yeah

17:48

, that was kind of like not quite out of the blue , being

17:50

like this bubbling conversation since the very early

17:52

days of our relationship , but we didn't really

17:54

know . We didn't know kind of got triggered

17:57

by this particular individual . We

18:02

then , like he was on the scene and off the scene fairly quickly because it turns out he was a colossal dickhead

18:04

, so it

18:06

didn't really help . He was embezzling money from the UK

18:08

government to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds

18:11

. So you know that kind of thing

18:13

, we pick them , we really do Going

18:16

to get out of that one yeah

18:18

, then we

18:20

didn't really have anything really for about

18:22

another nine months to a year

18:25

or something , because a , covid and b there's a

18:27

lot of lessons to be learned . There's lots of like anxiety

18:30

within 2am conversations . Then

18:32

you found a , basically

18:35

started . You found a long-term boyfriend

18:37

. Then we found this girlfriend who was a

18:39

thrupley girlfriend for 20 months . That

18:42

all ended last April in a complete

18:44

fire disaster thing

18:46

and then , overlaying

18:49

that , you found a stable boyfriend

18:52

. I found a stable . He's French . Um

18:54

, it's

18:58

fine , he's doing a so-called he um

19:00

he is beautiful and

19:04

he snores , but apart from that , uh , he's

19:07

not . He may be beautiful , he's not perfect , um

19:11

no one is .

19:16

He's been shouting .

19:17

I'm so sorry he's shouting

19:19

well , let me ask the question . You

19:22

can have the experience of hearing one half of the

19:24

conversation , because when you walk away from this

19:26

, I can hear you but

19:29

she can't hear what I'm saying so I can just say what I want about

19:31

her and she won't know unless you say it . That's

19:36

the source of entertainment . So

19:38

, yes

19:40

, got a long-term girlfriend . I've

19:43

got a long-term . So I've got a long-term boyfriend

19:45

. I've got a long-term girlfriend , um , I've

19:47

been dating her since june

19:49

july last year . She lives in london

19:51

. She's wonderful , um , it's

19:54

. She's got an incredibly

19:56

interesting and tortured background which is like , but

19:59

she's this really happy person despite her . Like it's

20:02

recently been her ex-husband's anniversary

20:05

of his death and all the shit that went with that

20:08

and she goes bringing up her , their

20:10

16 year old daughter on her own and

20:13

and just loads of stuff

20:16

going on there . It's kind of interesting . But

20:18

then we've also got lots of couples that we all have like

20:20

a kind of we've

20:23

got our core poly

20:25

relationships and we've got loads of what

20:27

we call like swinger friends that we

20:30

know . So the couple that we

20:32

saw last friday , for example they're more

20:34

swingery in that sense thing , sense of things

20:36

, although we both feel there is the

20:38

possibility that could have developed into something a bit more

20:40

serious . And then we also go

20:42

to parties and clubs and events

20:45

and things like that for even more random

20:47

fun .

20:48

Yeah , yeah , yeah , that's very similar to us

20:51

. I talk to a lot of people who are like we're strictly

20:53

poly or we're strictly swingers

20:56

or whatever form , whatever form

20:58

. And I'm like , no , we just kind of do everything

21:00

.

21:00

like I've got partners that are long

21:02

term , I've got some lovers

21:04

that I visit , we go to parties and

21:06

clubs , like just

21:10

do all the things yeah , it

21:13

blows some people's minds as well and they kind

21:15

of don't necessarily know where

21:17

they fit into that

21:19

, and I think it's more a fact that they're not

21:21

quite sure where where they're

21:23

at , which makes it difficult for them to

21:26

understand where you're at , I think

21:28

oh , that's kind of

21:30

like this thing where , like what is available

21:33

for me and I'll settle for whatever's available

21:35

, rather than get the thing that I actually

21:37

want .

21:38

That's a good way of putting it . Yeah , I

21:41

see that a lot Like well , this is like

21:43

if I could have everything , this is what I would

21:45

want , but I can't have everything because , you

21:47

know , this partner has these restrictions and this partner

21:49

has this . So like I'll just see what's available

21:52

and I'll decide if that's what , if that works

21:54

for me .

22:02

Which can be a driver for anxiety people . Because if you

22:04

uh feel that because of whatever setup or even your own internal preferences to underline

22:06

someone else's preferences , if they find it somewhere

22:08

else they might leave you and you can see how that drives anxiety

22:12

, even though that is the whole thing about this

22:14

whole lifestyle is it is all

22:16

optional . No one's mandating

22:18

you do any of it .

22:19

Yeah yeah , yeah but

22:22

it's a .

22:22

It's a . It's like a next level version of you

22:24

. Know people who are uh monogamous and

22:26

don't understand it , so but you know

22:28

they might leave me and this

22:31

is like the poly version of that , which is , but

22:34

I've got different requirements than yours .

22:35

Yeah , they might leave me , but I've got different

22:38

requirements than yours , yeah .

22:40

They might leave me . It's the same anxiety

22:42

.

22:42

It's just got a different . Like it's weird

22:45

, because you think you ? Get past it at some point .

23:58

Just because we're

24:00

poly doesn't mean relationships last forever . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah

24:02

, Okay . So that's , that's fun . I'm I'm curious

24:04

what is what

24:08

would you say ?

24:09

makes a relationship successful . Oh , we had this discussion

24:12

recently and I can't remember now what we said

24:14

. Oh , no , no , hang on

24:16

cake . No , okay , okay

24:19

, cake or death cake or death .

24:21

That's uh , if you've ever heard of eddie azard

24:23

one

24:26

of his sketches one of his sketches um , it's

24:28

about the church of england , so if you haven't heard , I'm not surprised

24:30

um

24:33

we , so

24:35

we had a conversation recently about

24:38

, uh , regret and

24:41

how it's very .

24:43

We think that it's easier

24:45

to regret what you haven't done versus

24:47

what you have done so

24:50

because there is always

24:52

a learning , and I think what

24:54

we landed on and what makes a successful

24:56

relationship is what

24:59

you take away from it , regardless whether

25:01

it's forever , whether it's

25:03

in a fleeting moment

25:06

or you know , whatever it may be

25:08

, it's what's growth . What have you

25:10

learned ? What have you taken away

25:12

from that situation

25:14

? How do you base yourself like ? What

25:16

do you like , what don't you like ? And it's

25:18

I think , that's our approach to

25:21

it . So , even if you know

25:23

, with the the situation

25:25

of the guy who we first met , you

25:28

know he taught us a lot about understanding

25:32

your gut instinct around things

25:34

or um , it's

25:38

a , it's a buzz term , but you know , understanding

25:40

what your red flags are , in

25:43

people , for example um

25:45

, it's not infallible . We still

25:47

have our moments where we cock up or

25:49

we we get taken in by people , but I

25:51

think we suss it out a lot quicker than

25:53

maybe we would have done once upon a time , would

25:56

you agree ?

25:56

I would agree , yeah , yeah

25:58

see , I thought you were gonna say we learned a lot

26:00

from him about what we don't want

26:03

but

26:06

also what we do want .

26:08

The whole like . There was a whole it's

26:11

like I say , very serious a very difficult conversations

26:13

, which is is

26:16

this something you'd ever want to do

26:18

again ? Cause it nearly broke us up the

26:20

way it went and some of the stuff that happened

26:22

was , you know , it could have been relationship

26:24

ending it nearly was , but

26:26

then also , underneath it all , for

26:28

me it was thrilling . I

26:30

want that feeling again , yeah

26:32

.

26:32

so yeah , you sort of keep

26:34

, almost keep going , despite yourself

26:37

and it's learn

26:39

oh sorry , go on , no , go ahead , go

26:41

ahead . Thank you . It's that

26:43

learning of um , you

26:47

know when it's too much , or you know

26:49

it's thrilling , but if you do something

26:51

all the time it stops

26:53

becoming thrilling . So it's like we don't

26:56

go to sex parties every weekend

26:58

, because then it's . I

27:01

mean , I'm already at the point where I can just strip down in a

27:03

room of people and literally not care

27:05

. Yeah , yeah , that that

27:07

whole fear factor thing has left

27:09

me a long time ago

27:11

wasn't much of it in the first place , to be

27:13

fair . Yeah , you're pretty

27:15

body confident these

27:17

days but there was a time where I wasn't , you

27:20

know , going through two kids and

27:22

that sort of thing . It changes you emotionally

27:24

and physically , but yeah , these days , so it's

27:27

knowing like what

27:29

levels of it uh , still

27:31

brings you that joy and that thrill , and

27:33

that you're not just doing it for the sake of it , that

27:35

you're assessing yourself constantly and going

27:38

is this what I want or does

27:40

something need to change ? Do I need something new

27:42

or is this good for me or yeah

27:44

, so I think it's . It's what

27:47

makes a relationship , relationship successful

27:50

. Going back to that initial question is

27:53

yeah , it's the growth . What

27:55

can you take away still ?

27:59

I love it . Uh , okay , um , I'm I'm

28:01

curious um Hunter

28:03

, you said that that

28:05

going through that relationship , that breakup

28:07

, um almost could have broken you guys up

28:09

, and I'm curious how ? How did you get through it

28:11

?

28:13

we did the thing . They always say

28:15

we talked a lot , we talked an awful

28:18

lot . But

28:21

it's kind of like that's the , the

28:23

mechanism , that's the train

28:26

, but our relationship was the track

28:28

. We weren't going to go off the train

28:30

tracks , we were kept on moving forward

28:32

. But you have to power the train

28:35

and you power the train with conversation and that

28:37

gets you to your destination . The destination is making it work

28:39

yeah how's that for a little like made

28:42

up on the spot ?

28:42

metaphor I like that one . That's

28:44

really good . Somehow you just

28:46

turned um conversation into coal

28:49

burn it , burn it all down

28:51

.

28:51

Somehow you just turned conversation into coal . Burn it , burn

28:54

it all down . Good on you .

29:00

Thanks , no

29:04

, it was so

29:06

good .

29:06

I've never had one of my metaphors skewered quite so

29:08

efficiently as that as well .

29:09

Thank you , I got you

29:11

I got you , I got you on that . You have

29:13

yeah .

29:15

You win bonus points . But it was hard

29:18

, don't get me wrong . It

29:21

wasn't like an easy journey to go through , but at the same time

29:24

it was I mean , we're both married and divorced

29:26

before we met . I'm sorry because

29:28

we met and

29:32

there's some things that you want because you want them . There's some things you want to

29:34

avoid because they hurt . It's like I don't want to go through divorce

29:36

again . We had children

29:38

. I don't want to have a child

29:41

with my ex that I don't see . Because

29:43

of that I don't want to go through any

29:45

of that again . So fine , I can't leave

29:48

, before I have to stay . And

29:54

despite , again , so fine , I can't leave . Therefore I have to stay

29:56

, um and like , despite some of the pain . Through it all , I never doubted

29:58

, like , how much I love butcher . So well , that's gonna stick around

30:00

. But also I've got this new

30:03

sensation that I like and

30:05

this new knowledge I have about myself that I like

30:07

, so I need to like . It's not choosing to like , it's

30:09

not choosing , it's integrating . It's

30:11

making the conscious choice

30:13

that this is a . The future

30:16

me is different from current me , but

30:18

change is always difficult and that's what we go through

30:20

. It's just going through that change . Yes

30:23

, it hurts and it requires a load of coal

30:26

, a conversation .

30:30

Yes , yes , oh , that's

30:32

so good . Thank you for sharing that . I appreciate

30:34

it . You're welcome very raw

30:37

.

30:37

I think , just I remember a lot

30:39

about that time , though that you do

30:41

feel like you're going round and

30:43

round and round the same

30:45

conversation continuously

30:48

and nothing breaks nothing , nothing

30:51

is resolved results , nothing

30:54

seems like it's getting better

30:56

for a while . When you're

30:59

in the trenches of that , really

31:01

trying to work something out , it's

31:03

hard , it's really

31:06

bloody hard , and especially

31:08

at the time that at that time we

31:10

had nobody to talk to other

31:12

than each other as well so we were

31:14

pinging off each other's emotions . Um

31:17

, you know , we didn't even have lifestyle friends

31:19

at that point . You know someone who

31:21

we could just go and be ? Could you just be a

31:23

mediator for this ? Because we are

31:25

struggling , um , and

31:28

something that we've

31:30

come to realize is that

31:32

it doesn't help

31:35

just having the same conversation again and again and

31:37

again . What you need

31:39

to kind of be striving for is

31:42

what are we going to do about it ? How

31:45

are we going to move forward ? What

31:47

makes you feel safe ? What makes me feel

31:49

safe , and where can we meet harmoniously

31:52

somewhere , not necessarily

31:54

even in the middle , just like what flex

31:56

needs to come from each side in order to make

31:58

this work ? And , um

32:01

, sometimes it's

32:03

just a case of trusting the process and

32:05

going through it , and something that

32:07

we talk about a lot on our podcast

32:09

is the marathon problem , because we're both runners

32:12

or sporting people , and you

32:14

don't know how you're going to be at

32:17

the end of a marathon before you've run run

32:20

it so the person at the start

32:22

of a marathon versus the person at the

32:24

end .

32:24

So this is all about the first time you ever run a marathon

32:26

. Yeah , it's just like . This is a like

32:29

lots of first-time experiences , first time you've

32:31

ever gone skiing down a black road yeah , just pick

32:33

your . Pick your first time doing anything . Yeah

32:36

, you cannot know

32:38

how you're going to feel at the end of that experience

32:40

. You can't intellectually get yourself there

32:42

. You have to go through the experience . Yeah

32:44

, and we just shortcut it called the marathon problem , but

32:47

you could pick your sport analogy yeah

32:49

, or any analogy so yeah , so

32:51

yeah yeah

33:00

, pretty much similar .

33:01

It's as nerve-wracking and probably goes on

33:03

for about as long as well . You're

33:11

much quicker than the rest of us .

33:13

That's him running , running , uh-huh

33:15

uh-huh , I see , I see running

33:18

got it , we'll get , we'll

33:20

get feedback . Yeah

33:24

, yeah , yeah , yeah , the oh , I

33:27

feel , I agree . I think a lot , of , a lot of

33:29

times we spend so

33:31

much time talking about how

33:33

, how I think I'm going to feel

33:35

after we do this thing , what

33:37

I think is going to happen and how

33:40

I anticipate I'm going to feel , and

33:42

then it happens and it's not at all

33:44

anything that I thought it was going to be .

33:45

Yeah often

33:48

the case yeah yeah , you , and

33:50

like I say there's just so . I

33:53

keep reading um

33:55

, I've just started a coaching course

33:57

and they keep saying that the , the

34:00

experience of doing something is

34:02

what makes it real , whether you write

34:05

something down or say something , but if it's inside

34:07

your head , it's not real until it leaves your body in

34:09

some way . That

34:11

includes physical experiences as well . So you inside

34:15

your head is a simulation of the real world

34:17

. It's not the real world , though . You

34:20

have to live in the real world , otherwise it's

34:23

all a bit pointless yeah , yeah

34:25

.

34:25

This is why I don't run marathons I

34:28

mean , I encourage that world it's not the most joyous

34:31

experience .

34:31

I don't know why weeks

34:37

of training to go before the next one , dear you

34:41

got this , you got this , thanks , thanks

34:43

just a proxy for being a psychopath .

34:45

It's fine okay well

34:48

, we all have our things .

34:54

I've been talked into this one . I wasn't

34:56

keen on doing you . I'll

34:58

just sign you up and if you don't

35:00

do it , it's fine no , no , no , no , no

35:02

.

35:02

This is an offline conversation . This is not how the conversation

35:05

went . Fuck a lot

35:07

.

35:09

I imagine that that's not how non-monogamy

35:12

started , although

35:16

I have heard a lot of people say that . I

35:19

really go on more yeah , like like

35:22

uh , like , like um , you

35:24

know , we started because , well , this is what they wanted

35:27

, this is what my partner wanted , so we just thought we'd

35:29

try it .

35:31

We nearly had a version of that

35:33

, so I'll go into a

35:35

little bit of the story about how it all

35:37

started . There'd been this very fuzzy

35:39

, nebulous background conversation , not about

35:42

swinging or poly or anything else

35:44

, just a this sort of if

35:46

something like happened to

35:48

either one of us , the other one , like you

35:50

, I don't know , I'm in a car accident and get paralysed

35:53

, dark , dark

35:55

. But you know , everything's practical . We're spending the rest of our

35:57

lives together and the conversation's like well

36:02

, I'd still want you to have sex because sex is important to you , and vice versa . So you

36:04

have this very hypothetical

36:06

conversation that's way off in the future , it

36:08

may never happen . And

36:16

then you end up like getting nearer and nearer to present tense and more realistic situations . But

36:18

nothing was ever done and nothing was ever like . Said in those contexts is always a

36:20

very outlandish thought process . Yeah

36:23

, and then this guy turns up and

36:25

well

36:28

, you , you were working with him , it's probably the

36:30

easiest way of saying it and then

36:32

you started working for him and

36:35

, um , there'd be lots

36:37

of flirting , but nothing , nothing

36:40

happened . And then one day , after

36:42

a work's dinner , you'd had a couple

36:44

of drinks . He was driving you home

36:47

from london to where we live not too . And

36:50

I get a phone call and it's Hi

36:52

, hunter , it's me , we're going to share your wife

36:54

tonight . That was it . That

36:58

was the start of it . It was that phone call , really . And

37:00

then he came over and I for

37:03

varication about three hours while

37:05

getting increasingly intoxicated .

37:07

Then I eventually went all

37:10

right , All right , I'm in .

37:18

Basically , and that's how it started . But the weird thing of that is that it's

37:20

. It wasn't necessarily that either one of us pushed for

37:22

it .

37:23

It was someone else yeah

37:25

, who pushed us over the

37:27

edge , that we kind of put ourselves like

37:29

on the edge of something and someone needs to come along

37:31

give you a shove , and he was the shiver and

37:33

we had talked about it previously

37:36

, like imagine if he cracked

37:38

onto us and then I .

37:39

Then I was eight weeks pregnant . We've discovered I was

37:41

pregnant and I basically every

37:44

day for god knows how long and then

37:46

had our second child and then thought

37:49

, oh my god , what have I done in life to deserve

37:51

this ? She

37:55

was wild . She's

37:58

an independent woman .

38:01

She's a delight I

38:06

can't see my face , but it's really Imagine

38:11

someone's really sarcastic face .

38:15

Yes , yes , yes , she gets aware of it .

38:17

So yeah , but again , even with that , there was

38:19

this . It was a hypothetical conversation , it was imagine

38:21

this , imagine that , imagine this . It was never the active

38:24

version , which is do you want

38:26

to do this ? It was never that , it was

38:28

just this . Again the Marison problem crops

38:30

up and you're going it's just a thought , a

38:32

thought experiment , never anything real

38:35

. And then all of a sudden someone

38:37

else makes it really going . I'm

38:39

never gonna know unless I do it right . Let's

38:41

, let's do it and then find out . And it

38:43

was fun . The first time was great . I've

38:45

got no regrets about that this . The

38:48

other two

38:50

times , the next two times were

38:52

bad . The last time was

38:55

fun , and then we found out who's stealing money .

38:57

So and

38:59

you're like , oh , that was that , but it cast a

39:01

shadow of everything else

39:04

it did . Yeah , well

39:06

, part of the money was ours , so it didn't help , didn't

39:08

really help you yeah , oh no , yeah

39:12

, man , yeah

39:14

, wow , uh , you know

39:16

, I think you

39:19

guys , I , I okay , first of all , thanks for sharing

39:21

that story . I love it , uh , and I hear

39:23

things like that a lot in the like we've

39:25

talked about it and it's almost

39:28

like for a lot of people like

39:30

a , a light switch , like either we're doing it or we're

39:32

not right . Like

39:34

what , what is the step ? And I tell

39:36

this , I tell this to my clients on the line like what is the line

39:38

? What is the step that you're taking , that now

39:40

you're doing this thing , you're

39:42

not monogamous or you're polyamorous or you're , you know

39:44

, whatever it is you're working towards ? Like , what is the step that

39:47

moves you from whatever

39:49

paradigm you're in now into the next one ?

39:52

so sorry , I'm gonna nerd out for a second . Have you ever heard of a

39:54

beta zone paradox ? No

39:57

, so there's this uh

39:59

concept , which is people will live

40:01

in an , in a

40:03

state of mild unhappiness

40:05

, beta zone . They

40:08

can see what alpha would be , but

40:10

to get to alpha involves risk or

40:13

loss , or potential loss , risk

40:15

of another name and so they will stay

40:17

. They will keep themselves being moderately

40:20

unhappy instead of risk being happy

40:22

, because the journey from beta to

40:24

alpha is risky . So

40:26

people find themselves choosing a

40:28

state of unhappiness , which is why it's called the beta

40:30

zone paradox , and that

40:32

applies to , like again

40:35

, all walks of life , loads of things

40:37

. But you see , couples do this , having

40:40

the conversation , the thinking about it , or one of them is

40:42

they cannot get out of that

40:44

zone .

40:45

Yeah , Without a shove .

40:47

Sometimes you need a dickhead to give you a shove , which is what we

40:49

got .

40:50

You need a dickhead to give you a shove , which is what we

40:52

got .

40:52

You need a dickhead to give you a shove . That's what we call him now . We don't call him by his

40:54

real name , he's just called DH .

40:56

I had not heard of that , but yes , I talk

40:58

about this all the time with clients . Your

41:00

brain and your nervous system really

41:03

loves what's known and

41:05

it loves to be comfortable , even

41:08

if that comfortable really

41:10

fucking sucks , if it's the worst

41:12

thing ever it's like , but I know what this

41:14

is like .

41:15

the next thing that I don't know could be

41:17

worse it's

41:21

really brave to move out of your comfort

41:23

zone yeah

41:25

, yeah , yeah , it's

41:28

not easy , and especially when

41:30

you , like I say , if you have nobody

41:33

to look to . I feel like you

41:36

probably didn't realize this at the time , but you were

41:38

in such a blessed position of

41:40

meeting someone who had

41:42

the experience , um , but

41:44

not just that was open to you having

41:47

your own journey and your own experiences

41:49

as well , from what it sounds

41:52

like to me . Yeah , yeah , um

41:54

, rather than saying , you know , this is the way

41:56

it's going to play and this is how it's going to be

41:58

, and blah , you know , you go on

42:00

your own journey , um , so you

42:02

had the ability

42:04

to sort of set up your own

42:07

network and your own people

42:09

and be like , okay , if I've got a problem

42:11

, I'm gonna go talk to this person who can

42:13

give me insight without being biased

42:15

or involved or , you

42:17

know , whatever it may be , and we didn't have

42:19

that for a long time . So it was

42:21

really fucking scary because

42:24

it was like it was just the two of us

42:26

.

42:27

It was the two of us in this room usually

42:30

talking from when the kids

42:32

went to bed at like seven or eight o'clock at night

42:34

till one , two , sometimes

42:36

three o'clock in the morning , exhausted

42:39

, yeah , and unable to move

42:41

forward because we had nowhere else to turn and we

42:43

could only turn to each other because no one else knew . Yeah

42:46

, and if you look for

42:48

, like , like you

42:50

say , materials and resources , well

42:54

, there's very little in the UK

42:56

, generally speaking , and purely

42:59

towards the swinger side of things in the

43:01

UK which is kind of why we started the podcast

43:03

. Actually , originally it was going to be a book , which is . Here's the

43:05

journey . We went on and blah , blah , blah blah . Then we realised

43:08

we could write , so we started a podcast instead .

43:10

We're going to try do a book . My handwriting needs to get a lot better .

43:11

We weren't on and never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never

43:14

, never , never , never , never , never , never , never never , never

43:16

, never , never , never , never , never , never never , never , never , never , never , never , never

43:19

, never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never

43:21

, never , never , never , never , never , never , never , never

43:24

, never , never , never , never , never , never , never .

43:26

Know what you don't know , right , and if all you have is each

43:28

other to talk to , it's like you're

43:30

in this , um , like a

43:32

, like a , yeah , yes , yes , yes , thank

43:34

you . An echo chamber . You know what I was doing with my hands

43:37

?

43:37

it looked

43:40

just like an echo chamber as well . Yes , universal

43:43

sign ymca

43:45

that's later .

43:48

That's the patron

43:50

, yeah yeah , yeah , you're like

43:52

it's like you don't know , Like okay

43:55

, I know there are 12 options for this

43:57

, 12 solutions to this

43:59

problem . Really , there's like 70 , but I

44:01

only know of 12 and you only know of 12 . So we

44:03

have to choose from these 12 . We don't know

44:06

, we don't have access to the rest of the 70 , because

44:08

nobody told us they existed .

44:10

Yeah .

44:12

Just to quote Rumsfeld , because he's so good at this

44:15

, though , but it's the unknown unknowns and the

44:17

known unknowns and the unknown unknowns . Yes

44:19

, and the known unknowns . There's

44:22

a lot more known unknowns

44:24

than anything else . Yeah

44:27

.

44:27

Yeah , yeah , yeah , amazing

44:29

, what

44:32

, what . What

44:37

would you say after

44:42

that first experience ? What would you say was the

44:45

biggest growth area

44:48

or challenge or struggle , or

44:51

change ? Like six

44:53

questions there , it's fine .

44:55

We can sort of console it into one which is

44:58

there's

45:00

lots of little steps along

45:02

the way and

45:05

I'm gonna . I've got

45:07

one I'm wondering if butcher agrees

45:09

which is it's

45:13

a two-parter . Which

45:15

is trust your gut when

45:17

it comes to other people , but then I modify that because I may go . It's trusting

45:19

your gut when it comes to other people , but then I modify that because I may go . Trusting

45:22

your gut is the first data point . Get

45:25

other data points before you decide to take action

45:27

, but trust your gut

45:29

first , because the number of people

45:31

that we've had come through our relationship

45:33

, who one of us

45:35

has gone ? This doesn't feel right

45:37

, but I'm going to go

45:40

with it anyway , because of either lack

45:42

of experience , some

45:45

form of scarcity value , especially at the start , because

45:47

, rightly

45:49

or wrongly , I always thought people were more interested in butchers than

45:52

me . So I I

45:54

believed that . So when , um

45:56

, when women who were interested in me came

45:58

along , I was reluctant

46:00

to let go of them and

46:03

both of us would go

46:06

. This isn't right , but you would , you

46:08

understood my position . You would let me

46:10

keep pursuing a

46:12

kind of slightly

46:15

pointless relationship because of how things landed

46:17

Not pointless , you know what I mean , but it was doomed . Should

46:19

we say uh , uh , long past

46:21

the part where we should have given up on it , despite

46:24

what our instincts were saying , which is this is dangerous

46:26

, don't go there . So that was probably what

46:28

I would say .

46:29

That was the biggest lesson is , over the course of

46:31

nearly four years , learned to trust my gut

46:33

better it's also not my place

46:35

to tell you I

46:38

I do not believe it is my place to tell

46:40

him you have to break up with this

46:42

person . I can tell him this is

46:44

how it's impacting me

46:46

and this is how I foresee it

46:48

impacting you , and I believe this is

46:50

how it's impacting us . Now , what

46:52

you do with that information is

46:55

either you make it better

46:57

or you you or you don't

46:59

, or you try whatever , but

47:01

it's not for me to go . You have to split

47:03

up with that person now , because I say so yeah

47:06

, yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah you

47:10

gotta go through it right . You have to learn your own lessons

47:12

yeah , exactly , it's like

47:15

the kids , right , you

47:17

go . Okay , I was in a park at

47:19

15 and I got blind , out , drunk , and

47:21

blah , blah , blah . You're not allowed to

47:23

do that and they're gonna go . Well , that's exactly what I'm gonna

47:25

go and do , because you

47:27

know , because you've said I can't , so

47:29

watch me . Um

47:33

, or there's my experience , where they're like that's

47:35

fine .

47:36

I never want to leave the house anyways .

47:39

Well , exactly , exactly

47:42

, exactly . My dad

47:45

, my dad literally did

47:47

like something very similar about

47:50

16 . He said to me now , if you want to

47:53

try drugs , just let me

47:55

know and I'll get them for you . And I just went

47:57

, oh my God

48:00

.

48:01

The least cool thing you could possibly do

48:03

.

48:04

I'm never doing drugs and

48:09

basically I very like , pretty much haven't , because it was the uncoolest thing . He

48:11

could have said oh

48:13

, that's amazing .

48:15

By way as a minor sort of scientific

48:17

experiment . Butcher's sister is 10

48:19

years younger . Butcher's younger sister never had

48:22

that conversation . Butcher's younger sister has

48:24

definitely done more drugs than Butcher .

48:26

It's wild .

48:29

I find it endlessly entertaining .

48:32

Now we know which conversations

48:35

to have with our kids .

48:37

Yeah , exactly , exactly

48:39

.

48:40

It's just reverse psychology , uh-huh

48:42

, yeah , yeah amazing

48:47

. That's why I'm not pushing back against child

48:49

one's latent christian fundamentalism , because

48:51

she's that

48:53

is a really good point actually . No , it sounds

48:55

weird , but it's a good point because she's

48:57

she's good , she's a church of england school because

48:59

it's the school nearest to where we live . And

49:02

she's , she's

49:04

convinced . She's convinced it's all real , it

49:06

all happened . I mean , she's six , so she's got time to change

49:09

her mind . The rest of us , and we're not religious . But

49:11

also , if I stop , this

49:13

is news I

49:16

am not religious . I'm very comfortable with

49:18

my atheism . I'm

49:20

less comfortable with my spouse . But

49:24

if I start pushing back

49:26

and this is a metaphor for polyamorism as

49:28

well in different scenarios if I push

49:31

back against my six-year-old's interest in religion , it's

49:33

probably going to make her more religious , and

49:35

we've had this a couple of times

49:37

with couples where one of them's been really interested and the

49:40

other one isn't , or someone's being dragged

49:42

into it and the other one isn't , the other one's into

49:44

it , sorry . And the

49:46

more someone resists

49:49

, the bigger the problem it

49:51

causes . And then what

49:53

then happens , though , is they'll

49:55

go with it , and then

49:57

you get the other problem , which is they are asymmetrical

50:00

in their levels of interest . So we've

50:02

had a couple a couple

50:04

of couples , really where the

50:06

female's been very

50:10

into it , loves it , gets all the attention

50:12

, it's great . The guy's been dragged , kicking

50:14

and screaming , and you can tell I

50:16

wouldn't say from a mile away , but you can tell , you

50:19

know pretty quickly that they're getting dragged

50:21

along and

50:23

again that instinct I was talking about earlier on , knowing

50:26

what that looks and feels like and staying the

50:28

hell away from it , because if a couple is

50:30

asymmetrical , going into

50:32

this in any way , um

50:34

, it just won't end well . They'll end

50:36

up having a problem , or you'll end up

50:38

having a problem with them , or it just causes

50:41

a bunch of strife . So this is

50:43

why we're very interested in the support

50:46

for couples , because we feel

50:48

like we're very balanced about all this stuff . We

50:51

can feel we can see imbalance in others

50:53

, and that will yeah

50:55

, yeah , but also I have lots of feelings about that just

50:58

going back .

50:59

If child one decides that

51:01

she is christian , then that's also

51:03

completely valid . But

51:05

we've given her the space to go

51:07

. This is who I am and

51:09

no one ever fought me on it , so

51:12

I can truly be who

51:14

I want to be and for me it's not my

51:16

thing . But if she wants to go to church on christmas

51:19

eve , we actually had a lovely time

51:21

. Not my thing , don't believe in it , but

51:23

she was happy .

51:26

Her sister was happy , we

51:28

had we had I was singing , so no

51:30

one else was happy .

51:35

Yeah and we'll probably do the same at easter

51:37

as well , because at least then there's a balance

51:39

of we're meeting you part way where

51:41

you want to be and

51:43

you know it's not feeling like we're

51:46

having to do it every Sunday and blah

51:48

.

51:48

So everyone gets a bit

51:50

, yeah yeah , yeah , and

51:52

they all come around eventually .

51:56

Thank you , good

51:58

to know mine went through that too okay

52:00

, I hear it's a phase , but even so

52:03

, yeah , I don't want to

52:05

like , let them have it it's

52:12

like playing dress up in

52:15

fact , that's literally what they did at this service

52:18

. They gave them all costumes to dress up in

52:20

. They know how to appeal to the children

52:22

.

52:24

Yeah , I mean , that's what a lot of people like about swinging

52:26

the

52:30

costumes and the themes , getting

52:34

to play dress-ups . You can't do that in your everyday

52:36

life .

52:38

Wow .

52:39

Now the funny thing is isn't

52:42

it , isn't it so ? Over

52:45

here . We've got a uh a fetish we've got

52:47

. I'm sure there's fetish events everywhere , but in

52:49

england there's a particularly long-running one called torture

52:51

gardens and we've done that one . I've

52:53

done it three times . You've done a couple of times , haven't you ? And

52:56

I love it because I get to dress up have

52:58

you done it ?

52:59

no ? Have you been to torchgate ?

53:00

okay , you mean to like a fat life

53:02

type event oh , yeah , yeah , yeah

53:05

, yeah , oh yeah honestly

53:07

, come on , yeah , I'm , I'm in seattle

53:09

, we have , we have a lot of um events

53:12

and things , stuff . But

53:15

, yes , you get to dress up , you get to like take

53:17

on a role , you get to play up , you get to like take on a role , you get to play

53:19

, make believe , you get , you know , all the , all

53:21

the fun things that , um , that we

53:23

don't get to do when we're being really responsible

53:26

adults running our lives and

53:29

I'm very , yeah , I'm very on board with it

53:31

, Yep . Yep , uh

53:35

, okay , tell me this . Is there anything that

53:38

I haven't

53:41

asked you that you would

53:43

want to share with listeners ?

53:48

I've got more of a question for you , and I

53:50

think it's something that we , when

53:52

you asked us what we wanted to talk about , mainly

53:54

because of your experience , is

53:56

we were talking about this before we

53:58

started recording of , and

54:02

you're actually perfectly placed for this , I think

54:04

. But yeah

54:07

, now , as someone

54:09

who has x amount of years

54:12

as a polyamorous swinger

54:14

, cnn , em , whatever

54:17

label you want to put to it when

54:19

you meet someone who's

54:21

new in some respect

54:23

and

54:25

wants a piece of you or

54:28

wants to become polyamorous or have a

54:30

relationship with you , how

54:32

do you work

54:35

with that , based on the fact that you

54:37

are the one who's effectively the

54:40

experienced one and leading the way , etc

54:42

. And you are dealing

54:45

with someone who doesn't know

54:47

what they don't know ? How

54:49

do you balance that off or do you ? God

54:52

, that's so hard .

54:52

That's funny you know , I , uh

54:55

, okay , so we , we've been non-monogamous for 10 years

54:57

. Uh , we , my husband and I

54:59

, um , and

55:01

I remember when , like when we first started

55:03

there , we started going to swingers clubs and there were

55:05

a lot of people who were like , oh no , we don't , we don't hook up

55:07

with new people , uh , and

55:10

we were like , why , how are you supposed to even get experience

55:12

? Like , how are you supposed to know what you're doing if you can't do anything

55:14

right ? And then now I look

55:16

and I'm like , oh , iew , I see why they said

55:19

that . But also

55:21

I

55:23

think you have to have a really good , like

55:29

Hunter said , you have

55:31

to listen to your gut , right ? Because

55:35

it's funny , because the other day we were

55:37

at well

55:40

, we went to an event this weekend and I remember

55:42

telling someone like , oh , my God , I've hit

55:44

this place where , because I'm so

55:46

open you know , I'm just out here , this is just

55:48

what I'm doing Um , where I

55:51

have , I

55:53

have this I don't know if I want to say privilege

55:55

, but like , like this assumption , I started

55:57

walking through life assuming that everyone is

55:59

non-monogamous , which

56:03

also is not good I'm

56:06

like , oh shit , maybe I should pull back and not flirt

56:08

with them . Shit , I should

56:11

check . I've just started assuming that everyone

56:13

is non-monogamous and everyone has great relationship

56:16

skills and everyone talks about this

56:18

stuff , and I've

56:20

been really lucky in that most of the people I run

56:22

into are somewhere on

56:24

that spectrum . But when

56:27

I'm interacting with people who , like , don't have

56:29

much experience , I asked lots of questions

56:31

. That's

56:33

how I do it . I ask tons and tons of questions

56:35

about where

56:37

they're at , what they're doing , what they're wanting

56:39

, what they're hoping to get , and I find

56:42

, like , without having to , like , take on a teacher

56:44

role or having to be a mentor or

56:46

being a parent or hand-holding

56:48

, I just get them to do their own introspection

56:51

by asking lots of questions . What

56:53

does that look like for you , which is essentially

56:55

coaching ? So I coach

56:57

them . Yeah , cool

56:59

, essentially

57:05

coaching . So I coach them , yeah , cool , but in a non-coercive way . Yeah , yeah , totally right , because , like

57:07

you know , they may not know the answers to

57:09

those things because

57:12

nobody's asked them and so they might

57:14

have to go get about it .

57:15

Let me figure that out , yeah

57:17

by the way , going back to what you were saying

57:19

, I I have recently had that experience of

57:21

going around local supermarkets and

57:23

like having

57:26

that sense check which is

57:28

they're attractive , but just by

57:30

bisexual . So we could sort of like we've

57:32

been check

57:34

out together and

57:37

then you realize , oh no , most people

57:39

are . We should probably stop doing this . It's

57:41

not fair , it's entertaining

57:43

, but it's not fair .

57:44

I appreciate a good guy as well on

57:47

my behalf , of course , occasionally . You're

57:49

not bisexual , you . You're

57:52

not blind either .

57:53

I'm not blind . I've also now

57:55

become very highly attuned to what Butcher likes turns

57:57

out it's foreigners .

58:00

I love a european , I love an american

58:02

, I love I , just , I just love it .

58:04

I'm with you on that you

58:09

nearly had an australian on the on the tick list , didn't you

58:11

? I feel like I feel like butchers nearly

58:13

. Uh , I feel like butch . Got like little bingo

58:15

card of nations just working your

58:17

way around we should make one of those

58:19

yes , we could do nation

58:22

bingo , yes , poly nation bingo

58:24

yes , that actually feels

58:26

like a proper ball , like I got canadian

58:28

, australian , brazilian

58:32

, I got

58:34

most of north , most of north america

58:36

, covered semi-central my

58:40

only .

58:41

But the only one I'm gonna get is saint lucia , which is

58:43

very niche , but I've got that one covered you

58:46

got it .

58:47

I'll probably never get that one now yeah

58:49

, I mean , it's quite a niche one

58:51

, isn't it ? Yeah , it's very niche yeah

58:57

, that's amazing I've had texan

58:59

, so I feel like that's

59:01

texan .

59:02

You know , the us is so big you have to do states

59:04

though .

59:05

Yeah , I was gonna say like when you're doing like

59:07

all of europe it's

59:09

not quite the same here when you say like I've

59:11

done manchester or I've done birmingham , it's

59:16

less yeah , it's less , just

59:18

generally have you guys seen that

59:20

dating show , the naked dating show ? That's

59:24

a uk one oh

59:26

naked , it's . Oh naked attraction

59:29

. Naked attraction , yeah

59:31

. So I've seen snippets of it , because it's

59:33

like those things that if you're all in

59:35

the office together and someone's watched

59:37

it , and it's been particularly cringy .

59:49

What made me think of that was , um , we watched a couple of episodes

59:51

I don't love it , but it's also entertaining and naked bodies , um , but

59:53

what the thing that got me was this guy saying

59:55

I think it was a guy , I know it was a lady and

59:57

she was like she disqualified a guy

59:59

because of his acts . She was like I don't know

1:00:01

, I don't think he'll , I don't remember

1:00:03

if it was a Northern or a Southern accent , and I'm like

1:00:05

I don't know what either of that means . And he

1:00:07

was talking and it was a really lovely , sexy

1:00:09

accent and she was like can't do that

1:00:12

. But yeah , and

1:00:20

they're all from the UK .

1:00:21

So I was like like I don't know it all sounds foreign to me , so we all

1:00:23

sound foreign to each other here so you

1:00:26

go from one county to the next and this

1:00:29

you speak , yeah , like a different

1:00:31

tongue .

1:00:31

I literally . There are some

1:00:34

parts of our own country that you

1:00:36

go to . You cannot . I

1:00:38

cannot understand what they're saying

1:00:40

, because this accent is so thick that

1:00:43

you just wouldn't have a clue of what they're saying

1:00:45

again in bill bryson's book mother

1:00:47

tongue .

1:00:47

There's more um more

1:00:49

variation in english in england

1:00:52

than there is in all the united states and

1:00:55

there used to be . It's about 100

1:00:57

years ago now , maybe 150 years ago , but

1:01:01

the way certain words were

1:01:03

pronounced changed every

1:01:05

50 miles between oo

1:01:07

and er , oo and er , oo and er as you got

1:01:09

further and further away from London , and there's

1:01:11

parts of Wales where words are pronounced differently in

1:01:13

different valleys that are right next to each other . So

1:01:16

there's just this huge amount of vocal

1:01:18

variation . This has got nothing to do with polyamory , but it's interesting

1:01:21

. Yes , I love a good fact

1:01:23

polyamory

1:01:26

they

1:01:29

pronounce it differently in

1:01:30

different places yes

1:01:34

, no , I , I couldn't even say the

1:01:36

word on last week's podcast . Oh you , I'm

1:01:38

like . I run a podcast

1:01:40

on polyamorism and I literally could not

1:01:42

say it .

1:01:44

You were a bit of shit last week , weren't you ?

1:01:46

I was not having a good week . I was not having

1:01:48

a good week . Yeah , in all

1:01:50

the ways , Football speaking yeah

1:01:53

.

1:01:54

I think Freud , and I just took it out of you

1:01:56

, thank you .

1:01:58

Where can people find your podcast ?

1:02:01

Me then , sorry , right . So we

1:02:04

are on Spotify , we're on Apple Podcasts

1:02:06

, we're on all the usual channels . It's called the Polly Pocket

1:02:08

Podcast . We have an Instagram

1:02:10

as well , which is Polly Pocket Show .

1:02:13

Polly underscore Pocket underscore

1:02:15

show .

1:02:18

Thank you , definitely . Yes , that's

1:02:21

us amazing , amazing .

1:02:23

I have one more question for you and I'll put

1:02:25

links in the show notes for you guys , um

1:02:27

, but I have one more question that does not

1:02:29

go on the main episode but is for

1:02:31

our patreon subscribers at patreoncom

1:02:34

slash , not monogamous , love

1:02:36

it , and this segment is called

1:02:38

just the tip , and it's what

1:02:43

is your or what is , uh

1:02:45

, something you can share , that is a favorite or best

1:02:47

sex tip . Amazing

1:03:00

, you guys are so much fun . I'm

1:03:02

so glad you came on . You guys

1:03:04

are a blast and , um

1:03:07

, everyone should go listen to you because , uh

1:03:09

, this is fantastic , I love it no

1:03:12

, thank you .

1:03:13

Thank you for having us , thank you for suggesting it

1:03:15

. Yeah , absolutely absolutely

1:03:20

it , yeah great , absolutely . Go with it again sometime

1:03:22

, come to us .

1:03:24

I'm in . Okay , yeah , sweet , and

1:03:27

that was Hunter and Butcher

1:03:29

from the Polly Pocket podcast . And if you aren't a member

1:03:31

of our Patreon community and you didn't just

1:03:33

hear that brilliant tip hint

1:03:35

, it was advice on how to be wildly popular at

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a sex club Go

1:03:40

to patreoncom . Slash , not monogamous

1:03:42

, become one of our friends with benefits or lovers

1:03:44

, and get all of the extras , like the just the tip

1:03:47

segment . Thanks so much

1:03:49

for listening today . Until next time , just keep

1:03:51

talking and listening . Bye .