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Music.

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Hello, friends. Welcome back to the show. Today on the podcast, we have Michael Weir.

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He's got a new book called The Spirit of Our Politics. Michael worked in the

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White House for Obama, and he's now the founder, president, and CEO of the Center

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for Christianity and Public Life. I rarely will have political figures on the podcast, typically those who work for news stations.

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I typically don't have those people on. I've had rare exceptions.

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One of the ones that you guys are somewhat familiar with is my friend from Telos

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who worked in the Bush administration underneath Condoleezza Rice,

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and that is Todd Detheridge. And this guy right here, Michael Weir, is another exception because I think

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both of these voices are not trying to get you in a line to a specific political

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party, but they're trying to help us do something a little bit more substantive.

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So the podcast with Michael Weir, We're having him on right now.

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And he's someone that I've known his name for many years. And I've always wanted

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an opportunity to talk to him. And I think you will not be disappointed at the conversation that Michael and

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I were able to finally have. So check it out.

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All right, friends, welcome back to the show. Today, it is my honor to be joined

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from Baltimore, Maryland, by Michael Weir. How are you, man?

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I'm doing well. How are you? Good, good. Now, Baltimore, it's a great place to be this time of year because

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football's very good in Baltimore right now.

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Life is... Yeah, yeah. I mean, they are an intimidating team.

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You watch the game this past weekend and you just go, oh my...

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Goodness, I would not want to be facing these linebackers. Oh, you do?

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But yeah, no, I think they have to be favorites against the Chiefs.

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Chiefs haven't looked as good as they have in the past.

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They were good enough to beat my Buffalo Bills, unfortunately.

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But yeah, no, it's a good time in Baltimore.

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For my listeners, Michael and I have been talking football. Michael is originally from Buffalo.

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We record this just hours after a heartbreaking loss. Ross, I want you to know,

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I was watching the game last night with my daughter.

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This is the Bills versus the Chiefs.

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And I wanted to root for the Chiefs. And if I'm being really honest,

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it's because I like Taylor Swift and I'm rooting for the Chiefs.

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And then my heart just started tugging for the Bills.

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I don't know if it's the guilt I have as a Dallas Cowboys fan from my childhood,

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which was vastly different from your childhood when it comes to football.

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My experience with y'all in football games is always very positive.

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And so maybe Maybe three decades later, it's like, I'm trying to like put positive

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love towards the Bills because of kind of some of the ways that we've stomped your hearts.

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But anyway, we won't talk about what happened last night.

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Anyway, so yeah, you got a book. This is the most abusive opening to a podcast

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interview I've done my entire last few weeks here.

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For someone whose business is politics, for you to say what I'm doing to you

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is the most abusive thing you've experienced, that is a very telling statement.

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This is honestly what it's like to be my friend. Before we started recording,

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you mentioned how, you know, Steve Carter, our now mutual friend,

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and you compared me to Steve. What you need to know is Steve is a much nicer person than me. Okay.

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And so you don't get this from him. Let me take a note here.

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I think I, you've been on a Suzanne Stabile's podcast, right?

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Years ago. I listened to that. Suzanne's a dear friend of mine.

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She was much nicer than me. You should know that.

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She's nicer. Annie Downs endorsed the book. I don't know if you've ever been

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on, you've been on her podcast. She's much nicer. So what you need to do is just, this is the level of expectation

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you need to have for talking to me.

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And I apologize, but I'm just going to be upfront about it.

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Hey, I'm in. I'm in either way. I'm here and I'm willing to take a little bit

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of abuse to talk about this book.

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We won't talk anymore about football.

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Here's part of what I'm doing is I've wanted to talk to you.

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I've known about you. I've, like I said, I listen to you on Suzanne's podcast.

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I've heard our mutual friend, Scott Sauls, told a beautiful story about how

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you and Governor Haslam, am I saying his name right? He's been on my podcast.

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I feel like I should be able to say his name. Did this really beautiful thing

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at First Press Nashville. Four or five, whenever it was, years ago, where each of you represented different

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political sides and you spoke beautiful, kind words about each other.

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Scott talked about that. And I was like, I want to get to know Governor Haslam

4:50

when he has his book come out. I want to talk to you. I've looked up to the stuff that you've done, but I don't want to talk about politics.

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And as a pastor, I'm just like, I'm begrudgingly stepping into this conversation

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because of the the very things you described so accurately in this book.

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You have a line at the very beginning of the book where you talk about how Christianity

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is either useless or it's used by the political system.

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I'm like, that's why I don't really want to talk about the spirit.

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The title of the book is The Spirit of Our Politics.

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I just don't want to. And so how many people do you feel like have that same

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sense of, seriously, do we have to do this about politics?

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Yeah, no, I think this exhaustion, this skepticism, politics feels like this area of life that, gosh,

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for as long and as much as we can ignore it,

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let's try to because it just doesn't make us feel good.

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We don't see how it fits into the rest of our life.

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Unfortunately, right, a couple of things.

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One, politics, we live in a society that's dictated by politics,

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so our lives are affected by political decisions.

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Our neighbors' lives are affected by political decisions. Those are sort of

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maybe obvious statements to make.

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I think the third, which is less common –.

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It is that we need to understand the ways in which the political and the social

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are not ancillary to or supplemental to our spiritual formation.

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There is no political you. There's just you.

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And so to the extent that your life brushes up against politics,

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whether that's running for office or just having a political conversation at the dinner table,

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how you engage in that conversation is going to be reflected by and is going

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to be affected by the kind of person you are.

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And so that's the message at the heart of this book, that the kind of politics

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we have has much to do with the kind of people we are.

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And we need to contend with that. Yeah.

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You said that there's not this dichotomy between the political person,

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whether that's how you vote or how you influence people to vote or what you

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put on your social media wall compared to who you actually are.

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Where did this notion that there is a bifurcation between this is normal me

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and then this is me when I have to, you know, go, you know, go to the polls

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or when I have to talk to someone. Where did that even come from? Yeah, well, I don't think politics is the only

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area of life where this is the case.

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I mean, I think that there's a faith and work movement for a reason,

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because people had and in some cases still have a very similar approach.

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Sort of, I have my work life and I'm a business person or whatever,

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and I take care of business and real things in my work life.

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But then on Sundays, I go to church and I'm very nice and charitable.

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And so this is part of just a sacred-secular divide is one way that people talk about it. It's also –.

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Politics is a bit unique in America because of the power of the notion of the

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separation between church and state.

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And I think that the separation of church and state has a lot of value as a legal principle.

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As a philosophical one, as a sort of statement about where Christian resources

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hold up, like where they count, it's a pretty awful principle.

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Which is to say, if you take from the separation of church and state that it's

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some kind of statement that our political life wouldn't and couldn't benefit

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from Christian resources,

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then you're going to be misled in some pretty serious ways.

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Yeah. Yeah. The idea that, okay. Once I said in a sermon that I was trying to

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talk about the way Christians engage with our culture and I made the same as like,

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I think Christians who are living out what it means to be a Jesus person,

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it would bring a benefit. It would be a value add to our country and

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like i i i got

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a lot of people to buy in on that but there's there's

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this comedian who made the joke about how he was trying to express what it's

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like to be a white man in america and he was like you know there there's something

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that's there are struggles about it and he's like the joke was yeah but there's

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people who are amening about about that statement and they're way too loud.

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And you're like, I'm not with you. Like whatever you're thinking, I'm not saying that.

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And when I'm trying to say, I think people who love their neighbor,

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who forgive as they've been forgiven, who believe in generosity and welcoming

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their neighbor and believing in, I think that is a value add,

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but sometimes it's become this. Idea where it's like, this is the only way for someone to be a good part of our community.

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And you're like, well, maybe that's an interesting philosophical discussion,

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but I don't think that's really a practically healthy discussion because I have

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plenty of friends from different religious commitments that are great neighbors.

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And so when we talk about this division of church and state,

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yeah, it creates an interesting discussion.

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I feel like I'm just kind of of tongue-tied as to how you accurately express

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what that really should be about. Yeah, well, look, I mean, I think there are all kinds of public implications,

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and I attend to those in the book.

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I think for Christians themselves, there's just a central discipleship question,

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which which is we are – in America, you do not choose to have political influence.

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If you're a citizen, you have political influence.

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You're an officeholder. And so the question is how you steward that influence.

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And so for Christians, you're going to be exerting your will in politics regardless.

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Regardless, the question is, what resources are you drawing on for that?

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I tell a story in the book.

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My pastor, in the wake of the shooting in Las Vegas, preached a sermon.

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And in the middle of the sermon, he referenced this Barna study,

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Barna, the Christian polling agency.

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And it was a two-part question. The first question was basically if someone

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was going – if someone was threatening violence on you, your family, your property,

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would you retaliate with violence for self-defense? Yeah.

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About 75% said, yes, I would. About 25%, give or take, said, no, I wouldn't.

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That's fine. This has been a Christian debate for millennia.

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When is the use of violence appropriate? That's not as interesting to me. The follow-up question, though,

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is very interesting and very pertinent here. The follow-up question was basically, do you think Jesus would agree with your

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answer, with your approach? And the numbers completely flip. So only 25% or so said, yes,

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I think Jesus would act as I would.

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And there you get – so our political life is full of these kinds of things.

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Sort of people saying, yes, in like an ideal world or, you know,

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yes, there's this biblical scriptural principle.

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Yes, Jesus said this. But in politics, that's really impractical. Yeah.

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And there, yes, that has consequences for our politics.

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But what I'm really interested in, what pastors need to be interested in,

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is what does that do to the soul of the person who, with their lips,

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is professing confidence in Jesus as Lord,

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but in all these different sorts of areas of life, including politics,

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think that the way of Jesus just simply isn't up to the task?

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Yeah. Yeah. It's always telling when you hear someone who has built himself

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as a political figure, who's trying to instill the teachings of Jesus or biblical values or whatever.

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But when the rubber meets the road, they will say something like,

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well, you know, the turn the other cheek has had a time and a place,

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and now we need something else. This doesn't apply to what we're doing here. And then you go, whoa, hold on.

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I mean, that seems to be a centerpiece of what Jesus is saying.

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And jettison the entire teaching because you can't apply it to what you're doing,

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but that's problematic. But if you want to say, what does it mean for us to be people who turn the other

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cheek and what is the actual policy that supports that?

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Like that's a different discussion, but just to go maybe it's just how blunt

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and upfront sometimes we have political figures being where they will actually

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just say those words. Yeah. There's no place for turning of their cheeks in politics. And you go,

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okay, but then maybe let's just leave Jesus altogether out of it.

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If you're going to say that this is one you don't want to do,

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well, then maybe just pump the brakes on Jesus altogether if you think that's

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really the game we're playing. Right. And, you know, on what basis and what other areas?

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Here's what I find. I find. That for those whom, like, let's make it more personal, right?

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Because there are distinctions with public policy and we can get into the weeds there.

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But think about the person who will just start yelling across the dinner table

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when politics becomes the topic of conversation.

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They'll go, well, that's politics. I get heated up in politics.

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But, you know, anything else, you know, you could, you know,

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I keep it cool. But, you know, politics, that's secular.

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That has to do with my pocketbook. I get really, or,

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you know, this folks who get into political disagreements and will sort of knowingly

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lie or sort of misstate things just to sort of like get out or call people names

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to try and get them to shut up.

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Here's what i found what those kinds of decisions to get out of a certain kind of predicament,

16:03

that kind of logic creeps into the rest of our lives so that when you're if

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you're if you're running a business and you're looking at the the accounting

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ledger and you're going you know this This doesn't add up, but if I move a few numbers around,

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we could make it work.

16:26

Yeah, that's the same logic of compromise. And they have something to do with one another.

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A logic of compromise and politics usually isn't going to stay quarantined,

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quarantined there. there. Yeah, I see what you did there.

16:40

Yeah, it doesn't just stay in one spot. It's the entirety of who we are.

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We'll jump into Dallas Willard, who is a big influence on you in the book.

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And I think the world is better off for the more of us who are influenced by Dallas Willard's work.

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And so I love the way that you're bringing him into this political conversation,

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because he's one of the great thinkers we have on spiritual formation of the last hundred years.

17:02

Before we jump to him, though, one of the things that you reference in the book

17:05

is a study that came from from 15 scholars on a range of fields.

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And this is October, 2020. And this is the dire warning that they gave about our current political climate.

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And they said, is a poisonous cocktail of othering aversion and moralization

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poses a threat to democracy.

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You go on to say in the book, the polarization we have today though,

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focuses quote less on triumphs of

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ideas than on dominating the abhorrent supporters of the opposing party.

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One of the lines that I keep going back to as a pastor is, unfortunately,

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more of us spend more time being discipled by whichever cable news that we prefer

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than by the actual teachings of Jesus.

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And part of the fruit of spending more time being discipled by these voices

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is that we are more in line with how they think.

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And one of the big ways that we have been taught to think by either side of

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this is how wrong and how evil the other person is more than upholding,

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hey, these are things that we think are best for our country.

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And so we end up just hating people more than we actually support the points that we're voting for.

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As you're writing this and you're talking about this tendency to other and aversion

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and moralization, you're seeing that and going, well,

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There are consequences all around us. When you think about some of those consequences,

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what comes to your mind first? Oh, so there are all kinds of discreetly political consequences.

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So, you know, the fact that our legislatures can't function,

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the incentive structures are given to politicians so that politicians are expected

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to play into the kinds of animosities and resentments that are held by and are,

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you know, are held by the public, exacerbated by our politicians.

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But then, and there's all kinds of emerging research on this,

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the social, the interpersonal ramifications, the toxicity of our political culture doesn't stay there.

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It's affecting our churches, our families, our personal lives.

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There's a study, the question has been asked for a long time now around,

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there's this polling question that's basically asking parents,

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like, who would you not want your child to marry?

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And in the 60s, the answer was, I would not want my child to marry someone of

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a different religion, would not want my child to marry someone of a different race.

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And right, like, not good. good.

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It's telling. You ask that question now. If the parents are Republican,

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they'll say, I don't want my child to marry a Democrat.

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If the parent is a Democrat, they don't want their child to marry a Republican.

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The social ramifications, again, political are very, I think, obvious.

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The social ramifications are profound. I write in the book about.

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There was a – and in some ways still is – a seeker-sensitive church movement

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in evangelicalism, and there's a lot of conversation about that and a lot of good.

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And I write in the book about a politics sensitive churches that increasingly

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we're seeing churches make decisions and be formed around and have to react

20:38

to the political affinities of of those in the church and that they're trying to attract.

20:45

And that is a dangerous thing when you have local churches making decisions

20:52

that are not just informed by, but being driven by these kinds of political

20:58

idolatries that people have. And the reason that churches are doing that is because it works.

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One of the best ways to build a crowd is to villainize a certain person and

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say, we're against them. And you do that with, this is a church against the woke, you know,

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secularization of America, or this is against the hate-filled,

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racist, whatever of that group.

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And it works. Like, you really do a great job of building.

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And the same reason that the seeker movement existed was because there was numeric

21:33

benefits to having a service that was catered to this style of experience.

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It works, but the problem is we're not discipling people. That's the problem.

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We're letting our culture disciple people. It works.

21:45

Yeah. Not to cut you off, but it works depending on what you're measuring.

21:50

Exactly. If what you're measuring is butts in the seat, then I think at least

21:57

at the short term, I think there are some places where it can work.

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I think if you think the local church is about...

22:06

Offering knowledge and discipling people in that knowledge to increasingly take

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on the likeness of Jesus Christ, then a model that is dictated by politics and

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political short-term incentives,

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you're not going to be too successful in that regard, which again,

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is a terrible, terrible loss for both our public life and then obviously for

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the lives of Christians and for the local church. Yeah, spot on.

22:36

You've got this line in the book. You say, we must understand that the crisis

22:40

today is not that Christians are now politically homeless, but rather that they

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ever thought they could make their home in politics at all.

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I wish I could, like, our entire church would just memorize,

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your home is not in politics.

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And unfortunately, it's a lot easier for people now to feel commonality with

23:01

people who vote like them, even if they don't have the same allegiance to Jesus.

23:05

Then having the same allegiance to Jesus with people who vote,

23:09

oh, this is a MAGA voter, this is a liberal. Like, I feel more at home with people who vote like me than people who receive

23:16

the body and the blood of Jesus every Sunday.

23:19

That's our problem. because where is our home? Now, let me go back to the quote.

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We must understand that the crisis today is not that Christians are now politically

23:27

homeless, but rather that they ever thought they could make their home in politics at all.

23:32

Now, you are a person, you worked in the White House, you're involved in politics.

23:37

It's not as though you're just like out in a cave, like the Desert Fathers.

23:41

You work in politics, but how do you make sure that you yourself don't find

23:46

your home in politics, even if you yourself, obviously, if you worked in the

23:49

White House, that means you have some political allegiance, there's a party

23:52

that, you know, that connects to you more than the other.

23:54

Like, how do you differentiate being in but not at home?

23:59

Yeah. So I think it's making decisions, both personally, who you're in community

24:08

with, but also profession,

24:11

you know, for me, because my, my, my profession, or even just,

24:15

Let's say your public sort of decision-making or political decision-making,

24:19

that you are not following the marching orders of a political party or candidate,

24:26

but that you're getting your marching orders from elsewhere.

24:29

I write in the book, you know, that it is not safe for Christians to engage

24:35

in politics with their feet planted in politics.

24:38

But when Christians can engage in politics with their feet planted in the gospel,

24:42

then they have something really to offer to our politics.

24:46

Just one more quick thing on this, which is.

24:51

It is more important to be able to say and recognize and hold that you are politically

24:58

homeless when you are happy, generally, with your political options.

25:04

So, you know, I'm seeing a lot of folks now, because of the state of our politics,

25:11

some of the leading political figures who are embracing sort of this moniker

25:17

of being politically homeless. And there can be some good in that, though I note that politically homeless

25:26

is also finding your identity in politics.

25:29

So to identify as politically homeless, that's still a political identity.

25:34

But it's just as important to realize that when you were voting with pride,

25:39

when you thought, oh, this candidate can really change things,

25:44

that's when it's most important to temper that sort of what can be a utopianism

25:51

or just an overconfidence with what Jamie Smith, the Christian philosopher,

25:56

calls a sense of ambivalence in our politics.

26:00

And I think Christians could use quite a bit more ambivalence in their politics

26:05

without that ambivalence causing us to be debilitated into not being able to do anything at all.

26:12

First of all, Jamie Smith, James K. Smith, brilliant person,

26:16

been on the podcast a bunch of times. He's way smarter than me. And so whatever he says is more accurate than whatever

26:20

I can come up with. I believe that. But it's hard to – like for you, you worked for Obama in the White House.

26:28

Staffer is that what your title was yeah yeah can

26:31

you tell me that in west wing terms like who were you which one were you in

26:35

west wing terms well i'm joking yeah yeah yeah i was i was in the office of

26:41

faith-based neighborhood partnerships sure and so in the in the domestic policy

26:45

council in in the white house so let me give you an example here so.

26:50

So when the easiest thing – so as I went on, I was asked to run religious outreach

26:58

for the president's reelect, which I did.

27:02

And when I took that job – I'm a student of politics.

27:08

The easiest thing to do, the most direct line if you're doing faith outreach

27:14

for a political candidate, and the traditional way to do the job is to say –.

27:20

If you're a real blank, if you're a real Christian, if you're a real evangelical,

27:25

if you're a real if you're if you're if you're a devout Jew,

27:30

if you're you will vote for my candidate. Yep.

27:33

And no argument sort of really. It's an identitarian sort of sort of appeal. to y'all.

27:41

I, when I took that job, I asked six Republican friends of mine,

27:48

if they join me on a call every week so that we could pray together,

27:52

I asked them to, I asked them to check in on some family, some family issues on a weekly basis.

27:59

I was living away from my, my family at the time for the campaign.

28:03

I also said, look, I'm not in control of everything that comes out of this campaign.

28:07

But as far as what comes out of my sort of shop, I want you to hold me accountable

28:13

to never approaching that line.

28:17

My job, I had a stated job position.

28:20

There was no sort of, it was obvious what my role is. My role is to make the

28:25

best case I can for the candidate.

28:27

So that's what I did,

28:31

but wanted to stay away from and

28:33

did stay away from this sort of idea that the vote was this sort of expression

28:42

of faithfulness in a de facto kind of way that you could tell how faithful someone

28:48

was by how they voted in a binary election.

28:52

And I think we could use more of that. Just one thing to drive the point home,

28:56

this is going to sound like a a subtle shift, but if we as Christians moved from saying things like.

29:07

I'm a Christian, and therefore I support Canada A,

29:12

or therefore I support Policy A, to saying, my Christian faith motivates me

29:20

to support Canada A, Policy A,

29:23

that subtle shift communicates something very important,

29:28

which is that it places at the center

29:30

are the fact that there's prudential decision-making going on on our part.

29:37

The second you enter politics, you are translating or attempting to translate.

29:44

Ultimate principle into the prudential realm of politics.

29:48

And we are imperfect translators. But sometimes with all of our talk of,

29:52

you know, I have a – my politics reflects a biblical worldview. view.

29:58

We sort of place what C.S. Lewis said.

30:01

He said, you claim God hath said when he hasn't spoken.

30:05

You put the stamp of dogma on your own political views.

30:09

And that, I mean, C.S. Lewis thought that that could be taking God's name in vain.

30:14

Yeah, no, I think that's spot on. It kind of reminds me of the difference between

30:18

saying God's word is inspired, which is 100% true, but my interpretation of

30:24

God's word is not inspired. My interpretation is very fallible, but often people like me,

30:30

when I'm preaching, I don't put that caveat.

30:32

I just say the Bible says this, and this is what's true. Instead of the more

30:36

honest and humble posture of going, this is how I interpret the text.

30:40

And there are other people who equally love Jesus and have committed their life to the cross.

30:46

And they interpret the very same thing different from me.

30:49

And that doesn't sell. Like that doesn't like move the needle.

30:52

It doesn't push the crowd to get behind you, but.

30:57

It's true. It's humble. It's doing unto others as you'd want them to do unto you.

31:01

And specifically what I mean is doing unto others who interpret this data differently.

31:06

And I, I had a sermon one time, made a statement. I said, you know, Christians think this.

31:11

And I got the email from a very respected friend from church.

31:15

And she goes, I heard you say Christians don't think this, and I'm a Christian and I think that.

31:20

And I was like, well, wait, you see what I meant was,

31:23

and she it was just spot on it

31:26

was just like okay the consensus position might be

31:29

this the majority of christians typically interpret it this way all these

31:32

things are all those statements are more faithful

31:35

ways to present my interpretation and so i think what you're describing while

31:40

it might seem subtle it's it's more honest i think that's something that would

31:44

create less what you're calling othering we're just like you're over there these

31:50

people are awful yeah i think think that's right.

31:53

Here's a line from the book. You say, Christians participate in politics not

31:57

as an act of imposition, but out of a spirit of loving service.

32:04

And so you're encouraging Christians to see politics as an act of service.

32:09

You're encouraging gentleness. How do we see the spirit of service as we're expressing our politics instead

32:17

of what you're You're calling an act of imposition.

32:21

Yeah. First of all, I need you to define an act of imposition for my listeners

32:25

and then jump into the answer. Yeah, no. So this is this comes out of a chapter on gentleness in politics that

32:36

was inspired and takes a great deal from a book Dallas Willard wrote on Christian

32:41

apologetics called The Allure of Gentleness.

32:43

And Dallas advances Christian

32:47

apologetics as an act of service and juxtaposes

32:50

that approach to a Christian apologetics that had become so axiomatic and had

32:59

become more about insulating Christians from sort of secular attacks,

33:08

so to speak, than actually trying to serve those that the Christian was doing

33:16

the apologetics work with. And there are significant applications to what a Christian politics has looked like.

33:25

To impose means you don't really have much care,

33:33

and not just practical care, You don't even care to explain why you're doing what you're doing.

33:41

It's just something that if you have the power to do it, it will be done.

33:46

And often that's the way Christians have approached politics,

33:50

which is if we can get the votes, then our say goes and whatever.

33:55

We don't even – we can not even care to instead approach politics out of a sense

34:07

that we are here to will the good of our neighbors, of those in our politics.

34:13

And so, yeah, it's an important concept, and it's a paradigm shift.

34:19

It's a paradigm shift from a posture of defensiveness and embattlement to one

34:27

of contribution and joyful confidence.

34:30

And it's one I think Christians can and should and have every resource to step into.

34:36

To yeah imposition to me sounds like the

34:39

way of power it's like if i get power i'm gonna do what

34:42

i want and i believe i'm the one person who will not be corrupted by

34:45

power and i'm the one who can use power correctly even

34:48

though we have thousands of years of history of people incorrectly using power

34:52

yes there was a situation churches where a predominantly white group will move

34:59

a certain in a certain direction and have inclusion of women in thing and people

35:04

of color who said, well, okay, we want to be a part of this. We interpret that differently.

35:10

And it seems like you guys just got the power. And so you all read it this way.

35:14

And so you're going to go forward with it. And we're just going to be like,

35:17

well, we don't have any say. So y'all are going to do what you're going to do. And it was very...

35:24

Very convicting because it's like, okay, well, I think this might be the right

35:27

move, but then I see how the move is being inserted because I have power and

35:31

I trust in the way of power. Like that's just part of who I am and that's not right.

35:35

And anyway, so as a pastor, that's an interesting discussion.

35:39

And you have a section in the book specifically for pastors about how we are

35:44

to engage with politics. and luckily there's some Dallas Willard in there because

35:49

I think Dallas Willard is a brilliant person to have as a kind of a through

35:52

line in the book. So great job on that. Let me read a quote where you're talking about pastors being,

35:57

and this is his terminology, teachers of the nation and spokespeople for Christ.

36:01

And so you say this, the task of Christian pastors and leaders is to present

36:06

Christ's answers to the basic questions of life and to bring those answers forward as knowledge,

36:12

primarily to those who are seeking And are open to following him,

36:16

but also to all who may happen to hear.

36:19

Okay, so that's a quote from Willard. Yeah. Flesh that out, because I know I'm

36:23

not the only pastor who's going to be listening to you talk about this.

36:25

As you're trying to coach us up on what we should be doing during the election

36:28

cycle, what does it mean to be teaching the basic questions of life?

36:34

Yeah. So this is Willard had concern, and I share it, especially in this political climate.

36:44

As I talk with pastors around the country, I sense such an exhaustion, such a weariness.

36:52

And I think a sense that this is not what I signed up for.

36:57

I'm being put in these boxes that are so far outside of my sense of calling.

37:05

And I hope that my book and this chapter in particular will empower pastors,

37:16

will remind pastors and those in their churches of the dignity of the calling of a pastor.

37:24

Willard thought that pastors hold an essential role.

37:28

He says that the most important activity happening in your local community is

37:33

that which takes place under the loving authority of pastors in the local church. I think that's true.

37:43

Pastors are to bring knowledge, not beliefies.

37:47

What's the difference of—how would you define knowledge compared to beliefies?

37:51

Like, Like, what's the difference? If pastors think that their job is to sort of get people to do things,

38:01

as opposed to offering knowledge about reality,

38:06

about God's kingdom, and not just, again, not just sort of beliefs,

38:11

things that you ought to provide mental assent for, but knowledge about reality, then burnout,

38:20

then this sense of constant exertion is just going to be evident.

38:28

And this is true when it comes to these political issues.

38:31

So the book offers a range in this chapter in particular, offer a range of ways

38:38

for pastors to think about and speak into our politics,

38:44

which I think there used to be this dominant idea that we could just keep this

38:50

stuff outside of the four walls of the church.

38:53

But as we've discussed at the beginning of this interview, I think most pastors

38:57

have said that that's just completely impractical in the kind of culture that we have today.

39:02

And so I offer a range of resources, both for thought and practice for how pastors

39:08

can offer knowledge in this political environment. Here's one thing I'd say.

39:14

I think that there's space and room for the ways in which Christian knowledge

39:20

might inform direct political decisions.

39:27

But I think one of the greatest gifts that Christians have to offer our politics

39:31

right now is not telling our politics what it is, what it should be, but what it is not.

39:39

To rightly size politics in the imagination of those under and within our influence.

39:47

And pastors have a great deal to offer there.

39:51

Tell them what they are not. because what politics are telling me is that those

39:56

people are the problem with our country and that if they get in charge,

40:00

then we're going to lose everything. Or if they stay in charge, then it's going to get worse.

40:04

Politics is, I feel like politics is always asking for more than a Christian can give.

40:09

And the idea that a pastor is telling you what they aren't like that as I,

40:14

part of the reason we're doing this podcast is because I'm going to have to

40:18

preach on this in in a couple of months, like how to survive in an election cycle.

40:21

And I, because of all of our mutual friends, like I had admiration and respect for you.

40:25

And so part of the reason I want to read this book and talk to you is because

40:27

I needed you to tell me what to preach in a sermon.

40:30

And I feel like that one right there is definitely going in there.

40:32

Like this isn't what it is. The other side is something that during COVID, I had a new perspective on a

40:39

complaint that I'd gotten like five years before.

40:41

I was teaching the story about Ruth. Ruth is an alien.

40:47

She is someone who who is a refugee and she receives hospitality.

40:52

And so I was telling that story using the perspective of, there was a refugee crisis at the time.

40:59

And I had a buddy who was a filmmaker who shot some stuff for,

41:01

I think it was Compassion International from a refugee camp.

41:04

And I just used some of that footage as a way to illustrate,

41:07

this is probably what Ruth would have felt like.

41:10

And afterwards, someone complained about it and said, you know, I want to go to church.

41:15

I don't want to hear all this politics stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

41:17

And I was like, I never told you how to vote for the issue.

41:20

I never brought up, and I was relatively callous to the criticism because I

41:24

thought it was unfounded. Years later, during COVID.

41:28

There's a podcast that I occasionally would listen to. And I was like,

41:31

honestly, I'm sick of the podcaster giving his opinion on vaccines and how you should respond to that.

41:38

Like share your stuff, use your platform to do what you need to do.

41:41

But at some point I'm like, I know what you think. I know what I think. Let's just move on.

41:45

And I think part of what some people want to do when they go to church is tell me that Jesus is Lord.

41:51

Tell me that grace is there for me. Tell me that the Holy Spirit is not going to abandon me.

41:55

And so to talk about this is kind of like, man, why do we have to do this?

42:00

Can't I just have a safe space for, for my life outside of politics? How do you hear that?

42:06

Yeah. So I think that there's some, I think that there's some,

42:09

some, some merit to that. I think, you know, part of what I meant by rightly sizing our politics is ensuring

42:17

that we're placing our politics under God and not, not over God.

42:24

And sometimes if we If we use the church or if we find ourselves using – I refer

42:34

in the book to something I call the toolbox gospel,

42:37

which basically refers to this idea that Christianity offers all of these –

42:42

all this great rhetoric, all this great tradition that I can sort of pick and

42:46

choose from to advance a worldview.

42:50

Worldview, but I leave the supernatural, I leave the actual relationship,

42:57

interactive relationship with Jesus out of it. We don't want to do that.

43:01

But, and right, this is all one-to-one sort of pastoral stuff,

43:06

but right, I think there are people who can say that, and they literally do

43:10

mean, look, every time I come to church.

43:14

Pastors using the pulpit on Sunday to express his prudential view on the topics of the day.

43:22

And that's not what the pastor has the authority for.

43:27

That's not what I need in the morning. And I think that there's some merit to that.

43:32

However, the same sort of complaint could be made from From someone who says,

43:36

look, don't touch my politics.

43:40

You know, like you stay in your lane.

43:43

And Jesus, you stay in your lane. And I have my own sort of political read.

43:50

And I have my own priorities. And I have my own sort of top issues.

43:55

And you stay out. And I'll just come to you, Jesus, for my sin problem.

44:01

And in the book, I refer to that as the fixer gospel. This sort of idea that

44:05

Jesus could be sort of kept out.

44:08

You just call him in when the body is on the carpet.

44:14

And if he could take care of the sin problem, then you could go on living your life.

44:18

And so those would be like the two extremes. Those would be the two extremes.

44:23

And we want to make sure that we're conveying confidence that Jesus cares about

44:30

the whole of our lives without expressing too much confidence in our own political

44:36

opinions. it. That's smart. I like the way that you paired the fixer gospel.

44:40

A fixer typically gets things done no matter if the way to get there is right or wrong.

44:45

With the great line from Dallas Willard, where we've reduced the gospel to just

44:50

a sin management problem, and he pairs that with the idea of vampire Christians.

44:54

I just want Jesus for the blood and nothing else, just like take care of my sin problem.

44:58

And yeah, there has to be something much bigger without being reduced to just

45:03

being a shill for whatever interpretation you have of the political thing.

45:07

Okay. I want to get you out. Final question, spiritual disciplines. Anyone knows Dallas Willard knows that

45:12

he's a spiritual discipline guru. His book, Divine Conspiracy is one of many ways that he's contributed to how

45:17

many of us engage with spiritual disciplines.

45:20

There are spiritual disciplines of abstinence and engagement.

45:25

Can you give me a quick one of each for someone as, okay, we're gearing up,

45:30

There's going to be more and more political discourse.

45:33

It's going to be the center of kind of everything. Give me one abstinence,

45:36

one engagement discipline that could help me survive this election cycle.

45:40

Yeah. So for abstinence, I'll give two that are usually paired together, silence and solitude.

45:47

I think that silence and solitude are absolutely essential disciplines given

45:54

the environment today. And I lay that out in the book.

45:59

In terms of engagement, oh gosh, well, let me say this.

46:03

I mean, talk about celebration, talk about worship, prayer.

46:08

There's a lot of sort of rhetoric around prayer.

46:12

Whether prayer is appropriate in politics. Is prayer opposed to action?

46:17

If you're praying for something, does that mean you're avoiding it?

46:22

And I think instead of giving into this sort of very politicized conversation

46:30

about prayer, which is the last thing Christians should be doing,

46:34

we should be upholding prayer as the very thing you want to do if you really

46:40

want to deal with with a problem. So silence and solitude and prayer would be just some,

46:46

but I offer probably about a dozen disciplines in the book for shaping the kind

46:55

of person we are that can make a positive contribution to our politics.

47:00

That's good. That's good. The good stuff. The book, again, The Spirit of Our

47:03

Politics, a lot of good stuff in there. I love the way that you've You've woven Willard through the idea of the allure

47:09

of gentleness, politics with gentleness.

47:12

Like that seems like an oxymoron, but I love the way you've done that.

47:15

And because of that, like I was going to, you know, make a joke about,

47:18

you know, someone who worked for Obama and being a Buffalo Bills fan.

47:22

And just because the field goal went left, did that make it any easier for you?

47:26

Wow. Wide left. Just because. But I'm not going to make that joke now because I'm going to choose wide right.

47:32

Unfortunately, I thought it went left. My bad.

47:38

So no, it didn't make it easier. Yeah, it was pretty not easy.

47:43

It was pretty difficult. What a terrible human being I am. Michael, you've lived up to my expectations.

47:50

It's great to finally connect with you. And again, congrats on the book,

47:52

The Spirit of Our Politics. It's a great resource to help you survive this elect cycle.

47:56

Music.

47:58

Thank you so much, Luke. Great being on. Great being on with you.

48:06

Thank you.