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1:20

the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries,

1:22

sailing was crucial. It was

1:24

a tool of warfare and

1:26

empire of conquest and discovery

1:29

and of course of basic

1:31

travel. The dominant maritime forces

1:33

of the times Spain, Portugal,

1:35

England and Holland all had

1:37

established extensive fleets for trade.

1:39

Merchant ships carried art, textiles,

1:42

currency, and other pressures goods,

1:44

the most valuable of which

1:46

was spice to expand their

1:48

territories and establish. The first

1:50

global trade routes. In

1:55

heavy storms and on unfamiliar

1:57

routes through attack and piracy

2:00

it was incomplete or incorrect

2:02

maps. Vessels were often. Last

2:05

breath and many of them are

2:07

still being. The most famous to

2:09

direct is of course the Mary

2:12

Rose on display in a wonderful

2:14

states is the art museum and

2:16

posting this historic dockyard. but how

2:18

about other rock. From the period.

2:21

His talk about just some

2:23

of them is David Given

2:25

maritime archaeologist and. Also have

2:27

a history of the world

2:29

in twelve shipwrecks. His

2:31

work as a diver has taken

2:33

across would move investigating some of

2:35

the most. fascinating weeks in

2:38

history. David.

2:45

Wilkinson noticed the shooters. Or

2:47

if you superior thank you. I am

2:49

delighted to have a chance to talk

2:52

to you who pick kill brains about

2:54

this fascinating subject. Can you tell me

2:56

First of all, was it means to

2:59

work as a marine archaeologists? What? Can

3:01

we learn from invest the icing a

3:03

shipwreck in the city? You. Will

3:06

See products are first of all

3:08

unique part. shoes off your school

3:10

for it because they're having a

3:12

single mom isn't hard. The Demarco

3:14

very high resolution for it's so

3:16

that be artifacts. Your farms have

3:19

a very close association with each

3:21

other. We treat them are not

3:23

association and they tell us about.

3:25

A particular event which in a

3:28

way of very familiar to us.

3:30

We don't have to work very

3:32

hard to understand what happens with

3:35

a separate from one for some

3:37

really easy sites to understand archaeologically

3:39

and I have this incredible power

3:42

to tell us in great detail

3:44

about that moment in time. And

3:46

for that to be a springboard, For

3:49

looking at all of the other aspects

3:51

of life economic and otherwise which represents

3:53

to the our socks tough one aspect

3:55

of ship a calico as we the

3:57

other one is the difficulty of actually.

4:00

Surfing the sites and sort of

4:02

realizing that potential and that's all

4:04

to do. Of course with challenges

4:06

the works under water which can

4:09

often be extremely difficult and saw

4:11

an archaeologist you have this. Great.

4:14

Adventure and finding separates and investigating

4:16

the sites that offer the challenges.

4:18

for example, time constraints. Because rex

4:20

even relatively shallow often you can

4:22

only spend half an hour or

4:24

forty minutes or an hour on

4:27

them and saw that time. The

4:29

archaeologists would normally have an alarm

4:31

fight for contemplating and thinking about

4:33

what they're looking at. You don't

4:35

really have to wash everything for

4:37

intensive about shipwrecks, the archaeology in

4:39

the history. three hundred and sensors

4:42

and focused. And so is

4:44

investigation. So it's the kind of

4:46

hiding ratcheted up process. You then

4:48

have to hope that all of

4:50

those expenses you have all your

4:52

diving on rak sun during the

4:54

work stays with you. when you

4:56

than spend those weeks and months

4:58

sitting afterwards thinking about what it

5:00

all means and doesn't matter very

5:02

much. where. The zip guns down

5:04

That is one of the things has

5:06

always said about the Mary Rose is

5:09

the fact that the celts of the

5:11

Silent preserves the asked taxes and important

5:13

so what does not need for. Other

5:16

regular texans that's a very good

5:18

points you have some shit generally

5:20

in vehicle was her being battered

5:23

preserves of artifacts. The whole you're

5:25

more likely to get substantial have

5:27

reservations you do with Mary Rose.

5:29

But one of the really fascinating

5:31

aspects of my it's right for

5:33

outset when I began talking the

5:36

student or in the Mediterranean right

5:38

way through to the work that

5:40

I mandatory now with shoes and

5:42

socks off Cornwall insert. Wrecks

5:44

and very shallow water up against

5:47

rocky code so scientists or lines.

5:50

And the most adverse circumstances exposed

5:52

to westerly from the Atlantic huge

5:54

gales and C and C bad

5:57

movement can austin consent pockets of

5:59

extra. The Nation on several direct

6:01

look into recently off with and

6:03

com well that's a very very

6:05

badly smashed up meet up on

6:07

any whole remains and as very

6:09

little obvious coherence in this thread

6:11

of material you know you're looking

6:13

at a separate be taught talk

6:16

about whether you're at one end

6:18

of the simple the other below

6:20

you do get to through the

6:22

circumstances of but see that's poker

6:24

fee and and sedimentation his pockets

6:26

within those sites that extraordinary preservation

6:28

them as you can have organic

6:30

remains. Just as significant as those

6:32

from Mary Rose. So and so

6:34

often an archaeology how things really

6:36

predictable and every rak is worthy

6:38

of the same attention because you

6:41

never really know what you're likely

6:43

to find that there are many,

6:45

many circumstances in which rak that

6:47

seems to have a little potential

6:49

with a bit of investigation to

6:51

produce really sickness since his. I

6:54

must have success And can we

6:56

talk about those center Christian detest

6:58

under This is a much since

7:00

sept them as wrecked off the

7:02

coast as England as and the

7:04

Sun on her maiden voyage and

7:06

sixteen sixty seven would we know

7:08

about the vessel and it's journey

7:10

before the rag. So.

7:12

They started with Excel always

7:15

is nicknamed the Malian Tin

7:17

Rak was rach and sixteen

7:19

Sixty seven. Near. Malian

7:21

on the west coast of the

7:24

Lizard peninsula and the rest was

7:26

discovered in Nice and Sixty Nine

7:28

by a local diver role naval

7:31

officer called Piece of Mcbride who

7:33

was snorkeling along. The coast is

7:35

very shallow and he rounded a

7:38

corner of dramatic rocky conflict town.

7:40

And those cannons to house and

7:42

a blister on the sea birds

7:45

and that glitters turned out to

7:47

be thousands of clothing pens with

7:49

the come from Amsterdam. And

7:52

these of course of that period

7:54

were items have considerable value, all

7:56

handmade and so it got that

7:58

nickname and his research. Don't

8:01

worry pinpointed, it's A does

8:03

she Really as we thought

8:05

it was Huge Stella which

8:07

was the Janna Wheeze fun

8:09

dead cert built in Amsterdam

8:12

and sixteen Sixty Five Sixty

8:14

six. very lavishly funded, built

8:16

probably. Said. The same

8:18

standards even in the same ship

8:20

yards as the.is sentiment of the

8:22

parents are very grand vessel designs

8:25

to the transport goods from Amsterdam

8:27

down to Spain and then into

8:29

the Mediterranean that ought to Recently

8:31

caught up here to China. We

8:33

were very big high as an

8:35

international trade and night in fact

8:37

had quite a lot of their

8:39

vessels built. Enough says I'm so

8:41

we know from the documentary rattled

8:43

more and more about the said

8:45

She was very well appointed she

8:48

had forty eight guns were to

8:50

in Imax third pic of the

8:52

water for the period and we

8:54

have to remember that that science.

8:56

Fiction: Sixty Seven was still the Anglo

8:58

Dutch war and any much him and

9:01

going venturing out that onto the Tomlin

9:03

beyond have to be on because of

9:05

the possibility of being attacked and taken

9:08

as a prize and then they have

9:10

to also. Confront. The pirates

9:12

of the Barbary coast of North

9:14

Africa from artifacts and she would

9:17

have looked at us like a

9:19

warship but she was in fact

9:21

much and ship and does just

9:23

amazingly rich eisen rich history. the

9:25

excavation produced. A. Fantastic range

9:28

of materials including raw materials

9:30

that we're letting guts and

9:32

copper and get satellite consignment

9:34

of iron with said corroded

9:36

and created a kind of

9:38

granite hot mouse. Over the

9:41

site and beneath us a lot of. Very.

9:43

High on facts were preserved. Comprising.

9:46

Both other types of cargo

9:48

materials and also set bought

9:51

equipment and personal belongings and

9:53

that evidence has been complimented

9:55

by some fascinating documentary evidence

9:58

from the national Law. Those

10:00

are the results of the fact that

10:02

another ship from Amsterdam bill to the

10:04

same time you could almost call her

10:07

sister said called the Abraham sacrifice had

10:09

left Amsterdam also that summer and Sixty

10:11

six you some but see had in

10:14

fact been captured by the English intention

10:16

of the primaries and as a result

10:18

the battle of her papers that ended

10:20

up in the Price Titles collection in

10:23

the Admiralty, Potus and the National Archives

10:25

and what they so is that many

10:27

of the consignments of is to sit.

10:30

Through split between them and that's

10:32

allowed me on discovering this material

10:34

to reconstruct club lot about the

10:36

more personable materials on a such

10:39

a crucifix stella because I now

10:41

know that there was split with

10:43

consignments that were recorded. And

10:45

or in that this great archive a

10:48

documentary material and and then I saw

10:50

I saw the other ships to the

10:52

Abraham sacrifice so it's a wonderful correlation

10:55

those really rich documentary evidence which is

10:57

not always easy to come by. even

10:59

so relatively recently saw it wrecks and

11:02

it's very rich archaeological site so it's

11:04

contents all manner of interesting. Ah fuck.

11:07

Explained. Me: how you stick

11:09

it out that one was associated

11:11

with the other. How do you

11:13

concerns the items? Tim: Assassin like

11:15

that. Well. At the

11:17

site itself though we're records

11:20

festival from sixteen sixty seven

11:22

sixty eight in Cornwall of

11:24

ships that had come ashore

11:26

because of cause those great

11:28

interest in salvage. And

11:30

salvage was a memorial rights and

11:32

they a crown would also be

11:34

interested basically in the more lucrative

11:37

rak and as a result of

11:39

that is quite a bit of

11:41

documentary evidence because to sit through

11:43

kind of saw legal proceedings and

11:45

wednesday those targets began researching the

11:47

site that found are easily able

11:49

to narrow it down. To. A

11:52

couple of clear possibilities. a very

11:54

wonderful set of finds was made

11:56

on the Rack which thought about

11:58

Prozac the fantastic things neither. Merchant

12:00

Wage and they were stuck with

12:02

the days of the regulation authority

12:04

in Amsterdam who had issued them.

12:06

And these weights have a final

12:08

days of sixteen: Sixty five, Sixty

12:11

Six and the ship was made

12:13

in that year eclipse in that

12:15

you're wrecking the following year. A

12:17

not really pinned the whole thing down

12:19

because those with no other possibility for

12:21

a ship that looks like this that

12:23

we knew from the other artefacts had

12:25

come from Amsterdam so that was the

12:28

way that the ship was most definitively

12:30

that and size and then in a

12:32

documentary I target but let's leave the

12:34

recording of the since Nine alongside Out

12:36

of the Other Side and A Sweet

12:38

Tooth cartoons as well. so I know

12:40

that the name of the cops and

12:42

of the consequences he castello called Lorenzo

12:44

is the side man who spends than

12:46

the price tag that is the captain

12:48

of the ship that split it's cargo

12:50

with the one that was taken a

12:52

surprise saw everything all kind of ads

12:54

together to give just about a hundred

12:56

percent certainty of it as shows that

12:58

the said. I use

13:01

ties to that said passengers

13:03

and he describes your first

13:05

glimpse of the sent as

13:08

seeing the seabed sparkling with

13:10

goals skinny tightly soon the

13:13

extensive. That first I thought did he says.

13:15

Well. What I decided to do

13:17

and assists in two thousand a chain.

13:19

I'd known about this right because of

13:21

have been discovered by both. Not Sixty

13:24

Nine, but the accounts that we've been

13:26

told were the. Not only had it

13:28

been. Quite. Sensibly excavated that

13:30

also that treasure hunters the come

13:32

to the size and they do

13:34

it's explosives and I brought down

13:36

some of the adjacent cliffs and

13:38

covered part of the right blocking

13:40

it's and meaning that the single

13:42

another material that normally shifted to

13:44

and fro of the site was

13:46

permanently barriers and so he decided

13:48

it really wasn't worth looking at.

13:50

However, I changed my mind and

13:52

on one very fine Sonny Dykes

13:54

snorkeled out from nearby Color and

13:56

Cove which says half an hour

13:58

away. And. Slam into

14:00

this little golly with is great

14:03

plus looming above me call Poleglass.

14:05

I knew the rec flaws and

14:07

other canaan. Suez. I. Swam over

14:09

the past gated rock where the explosive

14:11

said throat on the close and just

14:14

beyond that I did start to see

14:16

diary eroded cannon poking out of the

14:18

sediment not are concerned or along the

14:20

subtle in that opened up with us

14:23

described as being like her cathedral space

14:25

and a lot of the assets we

14:27

sounds. Probably scrap metal

14:29

church on fact so there's a

14:31

lot of candelabra. Six other things

14:34

was may have been taken from

14:36

churches catholic churches in the seventeenth

14:38

century and because of all the

14:40

religious material it has his son

14:42

orator at the site and if

14:44

you go into it and drop

14:46

pounds the see that as a

14:48

cop it has. it's kind of

14:50

nice like feals her it but

14:52

what was so exciting was seeing

14:54

on one side of the size

14:57

that the single hot and facts

14:59

sisters. Revealing. This concrete

15:01

is mass I call it was

15:03

caused by the thera material and

15:06

nine and gets compacting and server

15:08

corroded mass. An embedded within that

15:10

were thousands of clothing pens which

15:12

look like fault and cemented in

15:15

the sunlight and other artifacts of

15:17

brass some of which were those

15:19

search accoutrements as if Manson and

15:22

so assuming down on is very

15:24

sunny day only seven or eight

15:26

me says. Onto. The

15:28

field and and this the the simmering fair

15:31

to fight coming down on sewer grate treasure

15:33

rak which of course that archaeological and circumstances

15:35

that me is. See. Gonna

15:37

censor foot the cart and

15:39

was and what survives that

15:42

I wasn't nervous. you have

15:44

any sense of what has

15:46

not survived and I'm thinking

15:48

wondering about leather. Was.

15:50

At ease find that is

15:53

what has not been salvaged

15:55

by previous generations. And if

15:57

the raw. Materials that just would

15:59

not. I have to drive the passage

16:01

of time. Absolutely so.

16:03

One of the very important benefits

16:06

for good rich, documentary or trial

16:08

based. We have his foot it

16:10

lists for us exactly what you

16:13

suggest which is very large quantity

16:15

of material that a set of

16:18

this nature would have been carrying

16:20

which is perishable and we know

16:22

in this case but it included

16:25

cinnamon and clothes and pepper and

16:27

other spices and this is really

16:30

fascinating because of course. Those.

16:32

With a great riches broth hotness

16:34

time by the Dutch East India

16:36

Company. To answer is i'm from.

16:39

The. Far east from Indonesia and

16:41

from India and fee for

16:43

than being sold and transported

16:45

out from Amsterdam. onset such

16:47

as that sounds acoustic stellar.

16:49

So her greatest wealth in

16:51

her cargo was undoubtedly and

16:53

facts and bales of very

16:55

very valuable spices which were

16:58

heading off to Spain. And

17:00

to a Soviet of course all of

17:02

those gone interestingly in some of the

17:04

records of the salvage time that one

17:07

recalled laments the fact that quite a

17:09

lot of the stuff the been brought

17:11

to saw and was just rotting away

17:13

because nobody really knew what to do

17:16

with it. but it's poignant because that

17:18

would have been the greatest loss and

17:20

value in the said she was also

17:23

carrying Russian hides was interesting for these

17:25

a Russian cow hides which are also

17:27

great value so there's a lot of

17:29

material was reconstituted. The greatest

17:32

value. And the greatest

17:34

bulk of the cargo which has

17:36

gone we know off though the

17:38

attempts were made at the time

17:40

and subsequently to salvage inside and

17:43

this before. Daughter. Got involved. I'm

17:45

saying that sell enough that you could see

17:47

probably the rak on the seabed and you

17:49

to put on tongs and even free died

17:52

down and bring things that Sun's out

17:54

of. The people would have got everything I

17:56

possibly could out of it, but not all

17:58

events and the controversial. Women Fighting Family

18:01

the quite surprisingly large sum of it's

18:03

a large amount of quite valuable Missouri

18:05

which because people would have jumpsuit taking

18:07

as they could have salvaged that time.

18:10

Is it says that the

18:12

let some last works of

18:14

Rembrandt. Onboard. Yeah, now

18:16

this is the really amazing

18:18

story on a Sunny has

18:20

come to light very recently.

18:22

this in two thousand and

18:24

six researchers in China were

18:27

looking at the archives of

18:29

City Sally family discovered an

18:31

extraordinary correspondence between Francesco family

18:33

who was a wealthy member

18:35

The family at the time

18:37

and his agents in Amsterdam

18:39

and the state is from.

18:42

The. Time of the building of

18:44

the Sat across the Casella

18:46

because Folly had a financial

18:48

stake in Knots Enterprise and

18:50

lots of correspondents or field

18:53

was that he had instructed

18:55

his agents and also the

18:57

captain of the zip that

18:59

was being built two cats

19:01

a prankster called Rembrandt's to

19:03

produce too much l a

19:05

two smaller versions of paintings

19:08

with he wanted put in

19:10

his chapel in Genoa. And

19:13

the name of those ships caption was

19:15

Lorenzo the the Auto which isn't I'm

19:17

that we already knew to be in

19:19

the cops and of the photography Stellar!

19:22

And so suddenly when I saw this.

19:24

And I first came across this

19:26

just a couple of years ago

19:28

and then began researching further. It

19:30

became clearer and clearer as made that

19:33

these two paintings is Rembrandt heart

19:35

of a lot of procrastination. Much

19:38

more money and recruiting

19:40

the correspondence about. How

19:42

as is usual with Pine says

19:44

he was unpredictable and somebody you

19:46

can't rely on. Eventually, he did

19:48

produce his paintings and sixteen, sixty

19:50

Seven and I were laden on

19:52

the ship. And then they disappear

19:55

from history. And when I saw that,

19:57

I realize that. They. Must have

19:59

been lost. In. A wreck of

20:01

a close to Cornwall and that just

20:03

talking about this cutters mystical feeling of

20:05

swimming and so that size of the

20:07

imagining what lies that what was once

20:09

they're that the had been is to

20:12

paintings was even though they were much

20:14

alley would have been very high quality

20:16

paintings I would have been the size

20:18

of a series of paintings and that

20:20

they weren't the full size tidings that

20:22

he would have wanted in his topple

20:24

they would have been the in a

20:26

remarkable works of art and at among

20:28

really the great last Let's. Run from

20:31

So does the only time at it

20:33

as an ignorant football for the record

20:35

realizing as something of that kind of

20:37

extraordinary artistic and cultural interests that had

20:39

once been on the ship of it

20:41

came into this whole where I've been

20:44

diving. I don't think we'll find any

20:46

evidence of it but so slightly possible

20:48

There might be a little brass plaque

20:50

was Rembrandt's name on it down there

20:52

but just knowing it was out of

20:54

fuses for the homeless emotional power of

20:57

a wreck lightness. Absolutely.

20:59

And there's no chance that some

21:01

and pricing conus diver took them

21:03

off and that the manor house

21:05

and in a few years. Time.

21:07

Will discover them are so think so

21:10

because I think I wouldn't really have

21:12

lasted very long underwater. It slightly possible

21:14

that the the out of the we

21:17

know survived the rak conceivably could as

21:19

the last minute taken these with him

21:21

along with other valuable items that fairly

21:23

unlikely because people don't tend to do

21:26

that in separate My really looking out

21:28

for themselves, I think they would have

21:30

gone down with the seven sixteen, sixty

21:32

seven rest. Very interesting timing. rubber five

21:35

could be with someone in the doldrums

21:37

and. It's possible that this

21:39

commission. By. Sally by

21:41

this wealthy Chinese family. Is

21:44

something he might have seen as to solve

21:46

I said you know it could have led

21:48

many more similar commission search for missing for

21:50

the south. Undoubtedly it's loss would have been

21:53

a blow to him but he was very

21:55

resilient and carried on for do from some

21:57

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23:17

Humphreys to hit wherever you get your foot.

23:30

Let me ask is that a

23:32

couple of other rex is been

23:34

investigating and says within center and

23:36

tenure the sentence and he is.

23:38

This is an earlier subsisting twenty

23:40

seven. What? p Tell her that

23:42

the sith it's journey in his

23:44

on board. So son

23:46

since I mean sometimes on it

23:49

was a Portuguese carrots and see

23:51

rats in fifteen twenty seven off

23:53

gun wallow. So we're not very

23:55

far north of the size of

23:57

the side of the city. Hello

24:00

and in very very solid

24:02

was up against the great

24:04

stretch of fans of the

24:06

liver cancer. The goes as

24:08

far as of Levin. Several

24:10

kilometers wearing shoes offer a

24:12

very richly appointed ship. She

24:14

was on by things on

24:16

the third of Portugal and

24:18

it's thought that she may

24:20

have been carrying the diary

24:22

of his bride Catherine taking

24:24

it from Lisbon to answer

24:26

that because concerns part of

24:28

the Habsburg family. Base in

24:30

the Netherlands. The sip was

24:32

like the. Sensibly

24:35

salvaged at the time so in

24:37

the same way that clyde lot

24:39

of breath lot of it from

24:41

the period but again quite a

24:43

lot of it remained in situ

24:45

when it was rediscovered and as

24:48

recently as much as he won

24:50

by local tigers. Results of a

24:52

been sites copper ingot being discovered

24:54

in the sand on the shoreline

24:56

and his subsequent diving on the

24:58

sides produce name or goes and

25:00

gets on a silver and goods

25:03

are lots of handle six and

25:05

another are facts. It's a frustrating

25:07

site because it's in first solo

25:09

was out that it's often completely

25:11

buried in fans and other thing

25:13

earlier. It's one of those sites

25:15

which seems very on promising at

25:18

the outset because it's all spread

25:20

out and strewn over. Results very

25:22

destructive reckon process but unquestionably there

25:24

is a lot more than a

25:26

to be recovered and like has

25:28

a sorry I'm licensee. From Historic

25:30

England's because this is a protected rak

25:33

is to got there and monetarism surveyors

25:35

and every time I go out folk

25:37

that more of it will be revealed

25:40

that the there will be some of

25:42

these goalies on the rec that like

25:44

insane more expensive organic finds. It's a

25:47

very very interesting dates because Fifteen Twenty

25:49

Seven is very early as being before

25:51

the Mary Rose was so rak and

25:54

becomes Portuguese. This is a set which

25:56

is representative of the great Portuguese as

25:58

a discovery. so. The anything that

26:01

can be found out about sit

26:03

the that period has that extra

26:05

he significance of the time. This

26:07

is hop cause of all the

26:09

great exploration of the indies, Magellan

26:11

going and circumnavigated world and exactly

26:13

was period So there's a very

26:16

rich historical backdrop to erect likeness

26:18

an intensification whole thing as we

26:20

thought though that more of it

26:22

will be revealed and future. And

26:25

do you have a documentary towel

26:27

for their sentence? knee? Yes

26:30

we do because of it's significance of

26:32

the royal shirt into the probability that

26:35

it's carrying the or what kind of

26:37

our a of John's Queen to be.

26:39

There is a losses of the much

26:42

material everyday got involved because it seems

26:44

that John and maiden treated for him

26:46

to have the cargo return to him

26:49

father was a forty saw trying to

26:51

convene which to focus on the rack

26:53

whether or not any of the salvage

26:56

material did actually make his whereabouts toilets

26:58

who it up know. What

27:00

we do know is that it

27:02

did in rich several local people

27:04

as often happens with brought some

27:06

of these include some of the

27:08

bus home families and Com or

27:10

the Godolphin for example The Sun

27:12

all than said that Michael's mad

27:14

too many of these landed families

27:16

in Cornwall who were coastal elicited

27:18

from Rak because of the next

27:20

claim an oral rice on rec

27:22

that was fluster saw for it's

27:24

been a significant factor in the

27:26

corners economy at that level of

27:28

course. But another aspect which

27:31

really interest me with a threat

27:33

to search for local people anything

27:35

coming off the rack and we

27:37

know the strike was research on

27:39

times would be potentially of great

27:42

economic significance as well people living

27:44

in our hands, mouth and for

27:46

saying and small scale agriculture and

27:48

he's the kind of was so

27:50

if you like of cultural material

27:52

reaches his sword from foreign parts

27:55

as a result of ah fuck

27:57

son from It's Heroes being taken.

27:59

Up by. That wealthy local people but

28:01

all manner of others who would have

28:03

benefited from it. So in that sense

28:05

wrecks and wrecking has a significant part

28:07

you play any economics if you like

28:09

of reasons were ships were rats, much

28:11

thought and not something that you know

28:13

to be traced with more recent rak

28:15

especially in Cornwall. Evil Sons

28:17

incidences. Another read that this one

28:19

is a sip. Of unknown

28:21

origin. Yet you can face

28:24

hit to tell me about this reckon how

28:26

at least a says. So. The

28:28

other rak of potential to the

28:30

date is now going further south

28:32

on the peninsula so close to

28:34

where the for suddenly for having

28:37

them what sticks out just to

28:39

fight finance pose as many people

28:41

will have businesses and this is

28:43

it a political real trouble than

28:45

it's the most dramatic of all

28:47

of the threats that we've talked

28:49

about because it's such under whose

28:51

parents were very difficult place to

28:54

got so it's a long way

28:56

off from any place that you.

28:58

Can get in from the sort of

29:00

from accurate it's completely exposed to violence

29:02

southwesterly storms more often than not a

29:05

diving other side his country. Inconceivable. Over

29:07

the last seven months has not been

29:09

a single day where we should consider

29:12

going outside it's been so behind, but

29:14

this is a really amazing sight. It

29:16

was also found by locals I was

29:19

in. The. Sixties, a nice

29:21

and sixty nine of the kind

29:23

of halcyon period of rak discovery

29:25

of people were learning to die

29:27

than getting out of exploring. So

29:29

many of these threats that were

29:32

talking about was found innocent that

29:34

time and again it was a

29:36

very i'm incoherence rak. There was

29:38

no fall off remains that suggested

29:40

it hurts the said for and

29:42

effects. So in a month gullies

29:44

on sunday sea floor below the

29:47

cliff thought a sort of finding

29:49

hundreds and hundreds. Then thousands

29:51

of silver Spanish pieces of

29:53

eight. So this is a

29:55

true treasure rak. Really fascinating

29:58

because they all kinds. The

30:00

on Spanish America or from

30:02

Spain for the majority of

30:04

the coins were from Mexico

30:06

station to the final two

30:08

decades of the sixteenth century

30:10

and just answered the seventeenth

30:12

century. There. Are also cordless

30:14

number from fatality Now this

30:16

was the single silverman said.

30:18

And what's not Bolivia which

30:21

produced huge amounts of silver?

30:23

Or. That. Was mentored into

30:25

clients' the status and are also some

30:27

coins that had been answered in Seville

30:29

another places in Spain. We

30:32

have no idea of the name

30:34

of the shirt all where she

30:37

was hiding or why she had

30:39

all these coins on board is

30:41

a huge mystery. there are other

30:44

our sights sounds beautiful have navigational

30:46

divided so summer months of the

30:48

Mary Rose though the gunners tally

30:50

stickers that as investments deck pottering

30:53

goods so again. Probably a ship

30:55

that it had other cargo on board

30:57

that his parish so might have been

31:00

salvaged that the time most of the

31:02

Koreans were sold at the time

31:04

in. this isn't the. Seventies.

31:06

And eighties when it was still

31:08

possible to do that. The divers

31:10

who investigated thought racking up as

31:13

long as coast were for the

31:15

most part amateurs and they were

31:17

very admirable groups of people because

31:19

they were really. Learning what

31:21

they were doing, At. A

31:23

time when the wasn't really rough it's

31:26

guidance yet on how to do my

31:28

are some articles were investigation they were

31:30

often self thoughts very very good historians

31:33

and and this case that artists who

31:35

study distracted do quite a bit of

31:37

research on the coins and found the

31:39

attribution of many of them and it's

31:42

to be hopes in future that and

31:44

investors and then might produce more that

31:46

could be numismatic we studied but even

31:49

so it's the really remarkable sign for

31:51

the period and of all. The Rec

31:53

foot I saw it on round

31:55

the discipline and services to one

31:57

would probably count the most people's

32:00

mind as a profit from the

32:02

Rec are handled these clients and

32:04

they are the most amazing things.

32:06

I mean they're great has he

32:08

loves to silver very crudely embellished

32:10

with the declaration that south the

32:12

origin and that denomination and I

32:14

really athlete rattle and saw that

32:16

amazing period where the Spanish were

32:18

in case unfortunately in such destruction

32:20

and the Americans but we're also

32:22

finding a lynching silver which tool

32:24

their own activities back in Europe.

32:27

I'm Linda. Started by the size of

32:29

that all three of these rocks. Were

32:31

Rex. Austin isn't much as I mean

32:34

isn't easy for past the well. If

32:36

anyone wants to visitors it's gonna that

32:38

he could essential my son planet but

32:40

apparently not good as your six. So

32:42

what is it They southwest storms you

32:44

mention? What is it about the lizard?

32:46

That means that we have seventy Rex

32:48

their. Yeah, so if you

32:51

look at the market sticks out like that,

32:53

he'll have a high heeled boots into the

32:55

verge of the English Channel. beginning of the

32:57

Alonso action. The whole of the west side.

32:59

And the points itself. Is

33:02

completely exposed as you say to

33:04

the prevailing southwest delays and these

33:07

are always there over the winter

33:09

months and some Us as is

33:11

this your they carry on. Beyond

33:13

that so sits traveling outward bound

33:16

from for example Portsmouth, A London

33:18

or Us to them. Are

33:21

going to travel into the T V

33:23

for hims is there are lucky they'll

33:25

try to avoid them but variously it's

33:27

those ships that are outward bound and

33:30

get blown back into the lizard peninsula

33:32

so they do the very best to

33:34

avoid is hop nice but it does

33:36

and as soon as they. Are

33:39

being blown in that direction of a

33:41

little of silence of do about it

33:43

really because once a sort of reach

33:45

beyond the point of no return with

33:47

a cop rounds of points and fun

33:49

so skewed back in Falmouth, aw Plymouth

33:51

then they're really terms and are very

33:53

few places along the whole stretch of

33:55

the west side of the Lizard where

33:57

you can find any how of shelter.

34:00

So often the tragedy to be suits

34:02

is that many them were destroyed and

34:04

tude gales but not all of them

34:06

and they're very often would have been

34:08

people fully but solely being blown and

34:10

saw knowing that there was nothing they

34:12

can do about it. Watching. The

34:14

saw get closer and closer. And

34:16

then being rats against the cliffs somewhere where

34:19

those is really very little chance of

34:21

escape for the bible. And so there's a

34:23

lot of human tragedy and this and then

34:25

a post and the other direction ships

34:27

coming in from the Atlantic as well. How

34:30

to act of the same risk of the

34:32

Westerlies which they were using to travel

34:34

in the direction they wanted. Instead.

34:36

Blowing them a little bit too much

34:38

to the northwest and answer that cause

34:41

such a real a trap for shirts

34:43

and this carried on right way through

34:45

and so. The. End of Edge

34:47

sale and in beyond that in our

34:49

own steamship. Rak suspended delivered from as

34:52

one from the nineteen thirties so is

34:54

continue to be a danger. There is

34:56

another feature, the lizard right off the

34:58

point which is the rather horrifying race

35:00

that stick out like dragon's teeth of

35:02

the end of the Peninsular and especially

35:05

in fog. Ships could think they'd cleared

35:07

the point but I haven't and they

35:09

end up coming up against one of

35:11

these rocks which if you try navigating

35:13

through them a terrifying they come and

35:16

go with. The tide and they are

35:18

often just a while since I was very

35:20

very dangerous place not what of years While.

35:23

So when you're dealing with

35:25

he said these are science

35:27

not only off extraordinary remains

35:30

in the homes of since

35:32

that they are graveyard. Some

35:34

I quite often. Yes,

35:37

Very very often. and it's something

35:39

which I think you're always concert

35:41

thought as it's either that thing

35:43

with talking about the beginning of

35:46

the heightened sensitivity and the intensity

35:48

of diving and the high resolution

35:50

of erection and all that. Another

35:52

aspect there is that you're dealing

35:55

with places where people often died

35:57

violently and suddenly and unexpectedly. There's

36:00

often a almost palpable sense about

36:02

with Rags where you you're looking

36:04

at what was left on the

36:06

seabed. At that very moment

36:08

in time and you're looking at sea

36:11

belongings and a fisherman's you people I'd

36:13

say had some of the time after

36:15

using them and I think that gives

36:17

the real point it's use right and

36:19

either pressing the set lot of respect

36:21

as well because I mean these are

36:24

even if there are no remains to

36:26

be found our graves of cause some

36:28

search more recently or a war graves

36:30

and up for taxes for that reason

36:32

as well but I think it would

36:34

be very unusual sight of either who

36:37

was not. Cognizance of this and didn't

36:39

sometimes pause joined the dies of you

36:41

swim down into the blue dots and

36:43

know that there is a track down

36:45

there that people died in the water

36:48

your and now he didn't pause and

36:50

possibly have second thoughts when at least

36:52

sort of feel in a sense of

36:54

respect of a little bit of the

36:56

sheer as well the people must have

36:58

felt too. So yeah I'm always very

37:00

aware of the sun on the sides

37:03

with i've on. Not. On.

37:05

A testy of the Mary Rose

37:07

and asking? a sinister fantastic museum.

37:10

It's incredible collapse in this objects

37:12

and the to to period. And

37:14

of course we have this up

37:16

itself. And forty plus years ago

37:18

when it was raised, that was

37:21

the thing to do. I wanted

37:23

to ask what maritime offsides he

37:25

now says about Sit Rex. Do

37:27

you consider raising them all? Is

37:30

it best to leave and them

37:32

things. The. Prevailing philosophy

37:34

which is a very practical one

37:36

is preservation answer to so this

37:39

is the i would say the

37:41

main directly behind the way the

37:43

most smart on archaeologists will approach

37:45

sites suddenly and Uk was is

37:48

now and the Mary Rose story

37:50

really in many ways illustrates why

37:52

that is the case because on

37:54

the what had of if you

37:57

have the marvelous discovery and found

37:59

you have a breaking the hall

38:01

and how that can rich people

38:03

are deciding that period of absolutely

38:06

was during but the expense of

38:08

efforts and the ongoing conservationists use.

38:11

It as an immense Enterprises Nets

38:13

fan even just raising a few

38:15

tendency to have a responsibility to

38:17

pluto same thing with them and

38:19

go through the same process and

38:21

saw the issue really is it's

38:23

not, it's simply a matter of

38:25

expenses and conservation. It's matter of

38:27

whether cats and weather for so

38:29

there's no National Museum of Separate

38:31

Archaeology and Britain has no one

38:33

place to which. Finds

38:35

that might come from rats

38:37

can be taken but it's

38:39

also actually a procedural issues

38:42

through archaeology that nowadays we

38:44

can record thing so well.

38:46

Underwater the techniques the recording

38:48

a summer more sophisticated and

38:50

exciting the needs to be

38:53

that the points of actually

38:55

raising material is reduce as

38:57

well as an argument in

38:59

that sense. What about in

39:01

more effort to finding ways

39:03

of remotely survey remotely recording

39:05

Opposite from censored. The conundrum

39:08

arises with rak says are

39:10

exposed to the elements or

39:12

to elicit salvage where does

39:14

the danger of thera materials.

39:16

Exposed and readily removable the they might

39:18

be damaged or last and those sort

39:21

of issues I think that's has to

39:23

be addressed side by side. all of

39:25

the rak like have died on that

39:27

of protect you plight in theory are

39:29

exposed to lose hang rested announcer have

39:32

had silver coins on such as a

39:34

real contract I think that's a sort

39:36

of fairly rare plants nowadays but it

39:38

was an your back in the time

39:40

when these types of us been discovered

39:43

in the sixties and seventies. As a

39:45

kind of ethical issue in archaeology. Of

39:47

not as to whether to lease things as

39:49

they are. And it's not just

39:51

the future generations I find out of

39:53

disparate him myself in i think that

39:55

I want so us to know what

39:57

we can about archaeology. I don't want.

40:00

The leaving at society be further escalation

40:02

future when I can preserve things better

40:04

I was like a positive attitude which

40:06

is the in ah yes we can

40:09

leasing sunsets you bit less do everything

40:11

we can serve record them as well

40:13

as we hadn't even that sciences and

40:16

photography like and was photography cinematography and

40:18

the times I've been us either. Of.

40:21

Moves us rarely from very limited

40:23

ability to to image rates to

40:25

the time from five years ago

40:27

were almost every time goes down

40:29

with a pretty good Tamra now

40:31

and so Thera Masses imagery being

40:33

produced for some of the racks

40:35

we've been talking about, and much

40:38

of the work that we've been

40:40

doing really has been capturing that

40:42

imagery and and recording those sites.

40:44

And I think that's probably the

40:46

biggest change in my lifetime and

40:48

what's been possible under water and.

40:50

Some sort of techniques and production

40:53

of opens up a way of

40:55

experiencing racks that doesn't require you

40:57

to hasta raise them into listener

40:59

material because you get such wonderful

41:01

impressions of them from other was

41:03

photographs and moving images you have.

41:06

An. Interesting us upcoming. Didn't you say

41:08

he pulled friends? Tell me that as.

41:11

Well there is one of the

41:13

sable rak of the lizard tonnage

41:15

you're gonna as blunt with started

41:17

to done for decades as the

41:19

other problems prize and this is

41:21

one of the shirts captured by

41:23

George Clifford. Of Cumberland

41:25

on one of his expeditions

41:27

against Spanish to the Azores.

41:30

And further afield and through the

41:32

caravan as well. And and fifty

41:34

eighty nine one of the sits

41:37

the cops said which is such

41:39

that Bin Laden with stolen silver

41:41

records and mounts by we don't

41:43

know where but it's very possible

41:45

that it would wreck. You can

41:48

stay close of the lizard because

41:50

that's where sit for blown into

41:52

and there is a one size

41:54

and particular one cannon rec and

41:57

rochelle a water which we think

41:59

might. The B B S lack

42:01

the might not be but it's was

42:03

investigation and that's all I can say

42:05

about a moment but it is the

42:07

one big prize Was has yet to

42:10

be discovered in Wrexham the of the

42:12

state rains a monster anyway off lizard

42:14

so watch this space and will see

42:16

what the rises if we're able to

42:18

gas and as the site is a

42:20

uncovered and we can do some recording

42:22

of it. Has access and

42:25

my sister. Since then you have

42:27

send your life will much as

42:29

well as leading expeditions all over

42:31

the wound. What is it about

42:33

this and continues to fascinate you?

42:35

And why do you think shipwrecks

42:37

hold such a special place in

42:40

the popular imagination? I think

42:42

separate a very beguiling fights because

42:44

as the resolution again the extreme

42:46

precision with which you can know

42:48

about the events that cause the

42:50

rack and what the people on

42:52

this isn't what they're doing, it's

42:54

almost as this other phenomena direct

42:56

draws space and time into it

42:58

and when I was writing my

43:01

book of really felt this with

43:03

the rec said i'd talking focus

43:05

on that isn't Do or Max

43:07

Baucus a catalogue sites as you

43:09

can do any other awful school

43:11

books. But what makes it work

43:13

is to see those sites the springboard

43:15

for drawing in history and everything else

43:18

going on at the time. And Rex

43:20

a very much like that because they

43:22

have this great precision. But.

43:25

In a way that very precision allows you

43:27

to fuse latitudes of imagination than and of

43:29

sort of his sort of brought in the

43:31

way that you look at even spring from

43:34

rats. Talking about the people are on the

43:36

shirts, the cargo, the our sights, how they

43:38

were made. You can as in the case

43:40

of the Mary Rose you can talk about

43:43

the big sugars of history like hundred gates,

43:45

you know who stepped on board the Mary

43:47

Rose. You can talk about the common silos

43:49

and people who are otherwise on recorded history

43:52

so it's great powerful next sources of history

43:54

and I. Think afflict continually Kids: Rex

43:56

have any period but in any place

43:58

great Him okay did not pose a

44:01

fast forward. A guy tries demonstrating the

44:03

book as nineteenth and twentieth centuries well

44:05

when we think everything is that of

44:07

article is automatic recorded. but the nature

44:10

of Rex transcends thought because there's a

44:12

kind of power to the imagination and

44:14

archaeological sites even if they off period

44:16

such the Second world war where we

44:19

have such a lot of documentary evidence

44:21

and that almost within living memory of

44:23

well that rak still have a great

44:25

deal of the most his power for

44:28

us but some me I'm I think

44:30

I discovered when I was a child

44:32

a fascination with and what a discovery

44:34

I grew up at the time most

44:37

cops and Cousteau. It just hooked me

44:39

and I'd still very fortunate that I

44:41

was able to. Make. A

44:43

career have it both instances separate

44:45

archaeology and and often times in

44:47

a way that. I've. Been able

44:50

to present hit both infects and none

44:52

are now a nonfiction as well and

44:54

it's a bit addictive So I mean

44:56

once you've made a few discoveries he

44:58

wanted got make more and you know

45:00

it's the next rak just behind the

45:02

next in a wreath that there is

45:04

to be discovered there's always must be

45:07

found And I think that the other

45:09

thing is that really have a costly

45:11

writing the book is that your think

45:13

you know more or less things but

45:15

when you themselves into the sites that

45:17

you think you know really. Well you

45:19

just find out such lot more to

45:21

do involved with. You know it's a

45:24

historian or was archaeologists your perspective kinds

45:26

and also and I know that now

45:28

I see things through a lens very

45:30

different to the one I might have

45:32

had when I started my career and

45:34

that means a whole process of looking

45:36

at Rak even ones that have already

45:38

been found his as an endlessly exciting

45:40

and interesting process and of those more

45:42

history to be drawn into a similar

45:45

stories to be told. Well.

45:47

You have sad your passion

45:49

very convincingly with us and

45:51

anyone who has course that

45:53

must be taught, a caucus,

45:55

a wonderful book, a history

45:57

as the loud and twelve

45:59

separate. The carry on the

46:01

adventure with use. David, Thank you so

46:03

much for your time! This has been

46:05

really fabulous. Thank you very much. For

46:16

listening to not just the Tudors from

46:18

history. On also to

46:20

be researchers smith he produces within

46:22

the and annotate so who edited

46:25

this episode were always eager to

46:27

hear from me to do drop.

46:29

Us a line at Not Just

46:32

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