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0:21

the not, and as valuable

0:23

as precious metals. The economy

0:25

of the only modern world

0:27

was shaped by the pursuit

0:29

of it's single most important

0:31

commodity, spice Transport have zero

0:33

through a network of complex

0:35

trade routes. The exact source

0:37

for many spices remained unknown,

0:39

but all this changed in

0:42

fifteen Eleven with the Portuguese

0:44

discovery of the Malacca is

0:46

the so called Spice Islands.

0:48

The next six decades broad,

0:50

intense. Change from the linking

0:52

of trade routes across oceans to

0:54

the increasing manufacture of merchant ships

0:57

and armaments and the origins of

0:59

the first truly global economy, all

1:01

in the hope of controlling the

1:04

world's most valuable asset. Joining me

1:06

today to talk about the European

1:09

battle for spice and it's enduring

1:11

effects on the world is the

1:13

New York Times best selling author

1:16

Roger Crowley. His latest work of

1:18

compelling narrative history is Spice. The

1:21

sixteenth century contest that shaped the

1:23

modern world. Roderick

1:31

Early. It is a great pleasure to welcome

1:33

you to not just the Tudors. Thank you

1:36

very much is under. It's a great pleasure to be here.

1:38

This. Is an exciting topic. Can you

1:41

take us of the very beginning back

1:43

to the early sixteenth century and give

1:45

us some basics? Were in the world?

1:47

Where the Spice Islands? What were they?

1:49

What was great in there and why

1:51

they were important? The. Spice

1:54

Islands are. in the malaya archipelago

1:56

which is a kind of four thousand

1:58

miles on it's about a cold of

2:00

the world's diameter, a little

2:02

group of islands which are now effectively

2:05

in the Philippines, and the

2:07

critical issue here is that they

2:09

sit on the fault line between

2:12

two species systems. One is that

2:14

of Asia, the other is that

2:16

of Oceana, Australasia. And on

2:18

this fault line, it's like a

2:21

laboratory of evolution. It

2:23

was here that Alfred Wallace, the 19th century

2:25

naturalist, really fleshed out the theory of

2:27

evolution at the same time as Darwin. And

2:31

in the middle of this, there are

2:33

a tiny group of islands called the

2:35

Malakas. And the most extraordinary thing about

2:37

this is that there are five small

2:39

islands, the only places in the world

2:41

where clove grew. A few hundred

2:44

miles south, there's a second group of islands

2:46

called the Bandas, which are the only place

2:48

in the world where nutmeg grew. And if

2:51

you go deep into history, you can find

2:53

spice clove on the banks of the Euphorates,

2:56

possibly because of their rarity value.

2:58

They've always had an incredibly

3:01

vivid presence in the human imagination.

3:05

I think people thought that they

3:07

were analgesics, they were aphrodisiacs, they

3:10

were a kind of a portal to the divine.

3:13

And throughout history,

3:15

it seems odd to us now when we look

3:18

at our spice cabinets, that they have been

3:20

almost the first global commodity. They

3:23

were very handy from that point of

3:25

view. They're lightweight, you can stuff a

3:27

lot of this stuff into a ship, and

3:29

it's reasonably durable. And

3:32

Europe was getting spices in

3:34

the Middle Ages, usually through the

3:36

hands of many Islamic middlemen. Massively

3:39

expensive, they were like a prestige

3:41

item. If you were incredibly wealthy,

3:43

you'd have clove or nutmeg in

3:45

your meat, whatever. So they had

3:48

this magical presence in the imagination of

3:50

Europe. At the same

3:52

time, we have to think that part

3:54

of that imagination was focused by certainly

3:56

the influence of Marco Polo and the

3:58

way that he was he had

4:00

projected the whole of the Orient

4:03

as being critical. Columbus, in the

4:05

marginal note in his edition of

4:07

Marco Polo's work in Latin, said

4:10

that he was going for spices,

4:12

gold and gems, so they focused

4:14

something exotic beyond the European world.

4:18

You mentioned there that the control

4:20

of the trade was chiefly

4:22

in the hands of Muslim

4:24

kingdoms. Is that still the

4:26

case at the very beginning of the 16th

4:29

century? And if so, by what

4:31

means was the trade secured? It was

4:33

a whole network of trading points in

4:35

the hands of very many middlemen, from

4:38

spice irons to somewhere like Malacca

4:40

or to Goa on the west

4:42

coast of India, across the Indian

4:44

Ocean, to the Red Sea, taken

4:47

by other merchants up the Red Sea,

4:49

carried by camels to Carrow, up the

4:52

Nile to Alexandria, where you'd meet some

4:54

Venetians and Genoese who are going to

4:56

buy this stuff. It moved through

4:58

the hands of very many people, which is why

5:00

the markup by the time you got to Europe

5:02

was about a thousand percent. And

5:05

this diurnal trade, which depended

5:07

very much upon the monsoon,

5:09

was very ancient and very

5:11

well established. And

5:14

given that the rewards were

5:16

this value, the markup of

5:18

a thousand percent you mentioned,

5:20

that suggests that it must have been worth

5:23

taking those risks. So that's a lot

5:25

of travelling, that's a lot of effort. People

5:28

must have been getting rich from

5:30

this in order to carry on

5:32

doing it. Yes, absolutely. Cities were

5:34

founded and proffered throughout Asia on

5:37

this trade, and it was definitely worth the

5:39

risk. It certainly was. There was

5:41

a time when spices were more valuable than

5:44

gold. It was the first

5:46

global commodity really, the first globally

5:48

traded thing. And certainly, Mamluk Egypt

5:50

totally depended upon that trade. It

5:53

was supported by Genoese and Venetians

5:55

pitching up at Alexandria, and it

5:57

was really kept the Mamluk dynasty.

6:00

going until it was wiped out by the Ottomans in

6:02

1517. So yes, it was

6:04

definitely worth the risk. Now

6:07

you mentioned Columbus. This is a

6:09

time of enormous exploration and

6:11

expansion. So what impact did

6:13

that have? How was that sort of

6:15

interrupting the control of the spice trade

6:18

in the early 16th century? It

6:21

took a while for this really to

6:23

take off and it was really when

6:25

the Portuguese, when Vácico de Gama went

6:28

to India in the 1490s and brought

6:30

spices back around

6:33

the Cape of Good Hope to Lisbon,

6:35

that it froze the blood of the

6:38

nations and caused bank crashes because they

6:40

certainly thought that their whole business model

6:42

was out of date. If you could

6:44

stuff a hold full of spices into

6:47

a ship that was going

6:49

to be far more lucrative than the drip and

6:51

drab that you got at an enormous expense

6:53

at the hands of Islamic middlemen who you

6:55

didn't really want to trade with anyway.

6:57

So you can see it in

6:59

the annals of Venice, a moment at which Venice

7:02

really freaked out over the Vácico de Gama story.

7:04

In fact, they thought it was actually Columbus who'd

7:06

done it, but yeah, it shocked people. So

7:09

there's a European race to discover

7:11

the spice islands. What were the

7:14

main challenges facing those in Europe

7:16

in their search to try and

7:18

conquer the islands? By the

7:20

time the Portuguese had got to Malacca

7:22

and taken Malacca in 1511, they

7:26

had a pretty good sailing network

7:28

back into Europe. Beyond

7:31

that, they didn't really know where

7:33

they were or how to get

7:35

them, although they had captured some

7:37

charts and they depended upon local

7:39

Malay pilots who were merchant traders to

7:41

take them into the spice

7:43

island. And the challenge

7:46

really when they arrived was

7:48

trying to work out how

7:50

this really complicated little group

7:52

of islands operated, the

7:55

power structures, the rivalries, what were

7:57

they going to trade with what.

8:00

and the enormous complexity of

8:02

inter-island politics within the Malacca

8:04

was quite challenging. But the

8:06

Portuguese were enormously good at

8:09

gathering information. They'd had many years

8:11

of gathering information about the places

8:13

they were going to, asking questions,

8:16

finding translators, and

8:18

they worked out fairly quickly how

8:21

much you pay, who's on what

8:23

side, and they chose one island,

8:26

Tenate, over another island, Tidal, and

8:29

how to manage things. But it

8:31

was never easy because of

8:33

the enormous inter-tribal politics

8:36

of these islands. And

8:39

they also had to work out the

8:41

failing seasons, the diurnal fring of the

8:43

monsoon, and they had to

8:45

work out failing routes. But they were very

8:47

good information gatherers, unfortunately, so they learned this

8:50

quickly. And they

8:52

weren't the only ones trying to do this.

8:54

What can we learn about the battle, I

8:57

suppose, between Portugal and Spain over trade rights?

8:59

The Portuguese arrived their first.

9:02

The Spanish, to do with

9:05

the deep politics of the Atlantic,

9:07

had to sail west. And it

9:09

was only when Magellan made it

9:11

round into the Pacific that they

9:13

confronted each other. But

9:15

we see a kind of extraordinary

9:17

micro-war being fought in the Molacos

9:21

between these two adversaries, who

9:23

are separated by about 500

9:25

yards of sea, a very vicious

9:28

little contest to get control

9:30

of this terrain. And extraordinary

9:32

narratives of the Picts' attacks,

9:34

of they co-opted their local

9:36

allies, they raided, they plundered. They really spent

9:39

20 years slugging it out on the other

9:41

side of the world. Very weird little contest.

9:43

It's a very small group for men,

9:45

but they felt that what was at stake

9:48

really was a control of the whole pot.

9:51

One can imagine that this European

9:53

war played out in these islands

9:57

was massively disruptive to the indigenous

9:59

people. What sort

10:01

of evidence do we have about their

10:03

experience and how they responded to these

10:05

settlers? Unfortunately, we

10:07

have very little written

10:09

knowledge of how the

10:11

people of the Spice

10:13

Islands responded. Almost

10:16

everything that we know is

10:18

filtered through Spanish and Portuguese

10:20

narratives. And there

10:22

was certainly a point where they just wanted

10:24

to get rid of these people altogether. And

10:28

there was a point actually when the

10:30

Spanish and the Portuguese had to cooperate.

10:32

They built forts to protect themselves. And

10:34

there was a point when really they were

10:36

forced back on temporary alliances to

10:39

deal with the threat. Basically, as far

10:41

as we can understand it, the Portuguese

10:43

and the Spanish went totally unwelcome in

10:45

the scheme of things. They

10:48

were disruptive. They were brutal.

10:50

They wanted monopoly trading. Whereas

10:53

actually, the Spice Islands drew on

10:55

all sorts of people from across

10:57

the Malay Archipelago coming and buying

10:59

stuff. And people would come

11:01

from the Philippines, from China and so

11:03

on. So they would have loved to

11:06

have expelled these intruders, but it just

11:08

wasn't possible. They couldn't do it. It's

11:11

really interesting that you can say

11:13

that the Portuguese and Spanish were

11:15

brutal, but that we don't have

11:17

that from indigenous sources. So that

11:19

raises an interesting question because it

11:21

means that we're finding the material

11:23

in their own accounts. Is

11:25

there a sense that they feel entitled to

11:27

acts in that way? The answer is

11:30

yes, really. Of course, there's also

11:33

a missionary dimension to this. St. Francis

11:35

Xavier turns up and found it very unrewarding

11:38

trying to turn these people into Christians. They

11:40

felt that they were entitled to act in that

11:42

way. The Portuguese had laid claims in Malacca. They'd

11:45

laid claims to Goa. They

11:47

laid claims to almost the mouth of

11:49

the Persian Gulf. And they laid a

11:51

claim to the Malakas. They stuck their

11:53

flag on a map called the Miller

11:55

Atlas in about 1519. And

11:58

you've got the Malakas with it. There's an enormous... Fortunately,

12:00

they felt that they were driven by

12:02

God. They had a prerogative and a

12:05

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14:08

than into the way in which

14:10

the Spanish were attempting to find

14:12

a route to the islands and

14:14

what the in the opposite way

14:16

round. And what I meant for

14:18

relations between the two countries because

14:20

it's an interesting time, you know,

14:22

got diplomatic marriage is happening between

14:24

Spain and Portugal only one half

14:26

of the globe and on the

14:28

other half this battle being played

14:30

out and we obviously have talked

14:32

about the value of. Exactly

14:35

the bridge is it could bring. But

14:37

I suppose not many people look at

14:39

this by strikes today and think this

14:41

had enormous consequences on the lives of

14:44

people that this could lead to this

14:46

degree of war. So for those who

14:48

don't know anything about it, could you

14:50

outline some the events of those tumultuous

14:52

he is. I agree. It's

14:54

very difficult for us now to

14:56

understand how important the world will

14:58

suffice right For the first up,

15:00

Really well said that Spanish had

15:02

to learn to say around South

15:04

America and the real issue was

15:06

that nobody has any measure of

15:09

the size of the Pacific ocean

15:11

is now know how thousand miles

15:13

from districts of Mckellen to the

15:15

Malacca. it's a volume of water

15:17

which larger than all the terrestrial

15:19

landmasses and the world. And crossing

15:21

the see was incredibly difficult because.

15:23

Really saw a very long period

15:25

of three months you sale with

15:28

no opportunity to reproduce yourself and

15:30

these crews are going to be

15:32

decimated by scurvy. scurvy will start

15:34

killing a crew. They don't get

15:36

the human see within about a hundred and.

15:38

Ten. Days and the brutality of

15:41

they said. It took my long

15:43

time to realize how big the

15:45

Pacific was. The sheer tales of

15:47

suffering are extraordinary really he just

15:49

getting their the problem them for

15:51

the Spanish was having got their

15:53

how do they get back again

15:56

how do they take the step

15:58

back against they couldn't say. well

16:00

because that was Portuguese territory and they'd had

16:02

a treaty around that and anyway

16:04

the Portuguese had a much better hold on that

16:06

area and would capture them. So

16:08

we see a series of voyages one

16:10

after another where they get to the

16:12

Malacca's, they get some stuff and then

16:15

they try to sail back across the

16:17

Pacific and it's a lobster pot they

16:19

can't get out and there are about

16:21

four voyages, successive voyages where they

16:23

set sail and they're just blown back

16:25

by the winds and end up

16:28

having to surrender to the Portuguese and then get repatriated

16:31

by being put on Portuguese ships those

16:33

who survived and making it

16:35

back to Europe. So the suffering,

16:37

the sheer loss of human

16:39

life is quite extraordinary really

16:42

and this is only going to be solved

16:44

when one of the great forgotten heroes, if

16:47

you can call them that, of the age

16:49

of navigation. We think about

16:51

Columbus Vasco de Gama Magellan

16:54

and the fourth name in that is

16:56

a man called Andres Urdaneta. Urdaneta

16:58

spent something like 12 years

17:00

on the Malacca's, he went at 17 he

17:02

came back at the age of 28 but

17:05

he was a very bright guy and he

17:08

spent a lot of time studying

17:10

the pattern of the wind and eventually

17:13

in 1565 Philip

17:16

King Spain after Charles launches

17:18

an expedition from Mexico and

17:21

with the sole purpose of getting to the

17:23

island and making it back again. This

17:25

is like a moon shot, the

17:27

problem for NASA was you can send the people up there,

17:30

can you get them back again? But

17:32

Urdaneta had studied the meteorology

17:34

of the Pacific Ocean in a great deal

17:36

of detail and it was the best, the

17:38

quite expedition they'd ever had and he

17:41

worked out that you had to sail northeast, pick

17:43

up a wind and you could

17:46

make it back to Acapulco and it

17:48

worked and this was a crowning

17:51

moment in global oceanic connectivity. It

17:53

was the final link in the

17:55

chain that allowed Europeans to sail

17:57

all the way around the world.

18:00

And every year from then

18:02

on, when the Spanish established

18:04

a foothold in the Philippines

18:06

at Manila, every year

18:08

the Manila Galen would make that

18:10

voyage back to Mexico. And

18:13

this was the link in the

18:15

chain that linked all the oceans

18:17

together and was critical point in

18:19

a global trading network. And Odoneta,

18:21

who was by that time actually

18:23

a priest, was the man

18:25

who did it. He's fairly forgotten. He was

18:27

a Basque from northern Spain, and it was

18:30

a remarkable achievement. It's so

18:32

true. I mean, it's not a name that most

18:34

people would be able to give you if you

18:36

ask them. And yet, as you said, it's so

18:38

fundamental. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

18:42

Now, we're in the 1560s by

18:44

this point, but if we were to zip

18:46

forward the following decades, we

18:49

see that then the Spanish and the Portuguese are not

18:51

the only ones who want to get in on the

18:53

act. How is the spice

18:56

trade connected to the establishment of the

18:58

East India companies? That's

19:00

a fascinating story, I think. There

19:02

were in Seville a trading merchant

19:05

from Bristol, Robert Thorne and Roger

19:07

Barlow. These were

19:09

Bristolian merchants, licensed to trade,

19:12

and they had been there when El

19:14

Cano came back from the first expedition.

19:16

There were 245 people who set out

19:18

with Miguel in 18th May. And

19:20

they saw the wealth that was being

19:23

made. These guys are also slavers, we

19:25

have to say. But they realised that there

19:27

was no possibility that England

19:29

could muffle in on this

19:31

trade. But they

19:33

thought maybe there is another way,

19:36

and that other way could be

19:38

by sailing around Russia. And

19:40

they wrote to Henry VIII to say, we're

19:42

missing out on this. And England's

19:44

trade, 85% of its trade

19:46

was in cloth. A dangerous

19:48

kind of proportion, if you like. But

19:51

the central figure in this for them

19:53

was the Vatican Cabo. The

19:55

Cabos had been in Bristol. His Father

19:57

John Cabo had sailed for England. Frame

20:00

North America for England. His some Sebastian

20:02

who was actually a key figure in

20:04

the Spanish navigational hierarchy was what was

20:06

called the Pilot Major. He was the

20:08

chief of navigator who controlled all kinds

20:11

of activities that might make him so

20:13

on. and we think the service and

20:15

cabin probably said Robert so on a

20:17

map of the world was quite handy

20:19

with you sent back to England and

20:21

Cabo. he was a creature of off

20:23

as soon as he like so many

20:25

of these people he was generally eve

20:27

but he'd sell to Spain and then.

20:30

He defected to England. I

20:32

can swinging and he puts his

20:34

proposal to effectively. By this stage

20:36

hadn't it. It stayed and we

20:38

got able to save his young

20:40

man that there is another way

20:42

we should settle round Russia after

20:45

the reach of Spain and Portugal

20:47

and make it to Cafe China

20:49

and the Spice Islands. It's

20:51

difficult now to understand how people made

20:53

these sectors is leads. The thing about

20:56

thorns map was his act handily cut

20:58

off your for you got to the

21:00

top of Russia for the with no

21:02

way of thing whether though the way

21:05

round or not and it's hard to

21:07

get into the mentality of the people

21:09

who think forget to give that ago

21:11

but they did and one of those

21:14

instruments a Cabo introduce was a joint

21:16

stock company that merchant all contribute hit

21:18

a certain amount of money that is

21:21

not an imperial expedition that is have

21:23

much impact petition and these kinds of

21:25

structures were in place in Venice and

21:27

Genoa and he introduced this to England

21:30

so the much hims contributors in this

21:32

and avoids was made which came to

21:34

a certain sort of slightly grizzly end

21:36

of the coast Russia were two ships

21:39

of the leaders who will be were

21:41

frozen in and they all died for

21:43

the third shift the chancellor. Dns

21:45

them all Chancellor. John De called

21:48

him actually managed to fell into

21:50

the White See where archangels take

21:53

a sledge to Moscow and

21:55

strike up a trade deal with

21:57

Ivan the Terrible. But this financial.

22:00

The Or looking consolidated into a

22:02

company called the Mccovey Company which

22:04

traded with Russia reasonably whether it's

22:06

and terms and they sold clocked

22:08

him Russians and Trump but that

22:10

model John the who thought about

22:12

this and thought is the first

22:14

doesn't use the word I think

22:16

British empire. But. That model

22:18

of the joint stock company has

22:20

consolidated i think about sixty no

22:23

one into the East India Company

22:25

so beginning to see for the

22:27

origin from this voyage and cabbage

22:30

presence all of a mercantile independent

22:32

not crown based entrepreneurial financial sexual

22:34

structure and this is really but

22:37

I think going to be very

22:39

critical in the development of England

22:41

presence in the world. Activity.

22:44

And it's worth remembering though, that the

22:46

East Indies that the company is interests

22:48

in the first place is not India.

22:51

It is very much they are. and

22:53

we've been talking. About absolutely as he

22:55

was. the English are enormously interested in

22:57

getting the spices as well and way

22:59

after a member of course the great

23:01

had sailed rub Mccallum straight to made

23:03

it to the mark of him a

23:05

very well received. They had a kind

23:08

of backcloth to this and also managed

23:10

to tundra manila gallon along the way

23:12

which is quite happy. So he was

23:14

a prototype of this thing and yes

23:16

up with where they went but they

23:18

were be nonchalant by the Dutch and

23:20

the next his ration us Europeans wanting

23:22

to get as. Well,

23:25

and we've looks over the course

23:27

of the sixteenth century and beyond

23:29

at this European pursuit of the

23:31

Spice Islands as the come toward

23:33

fan of our time together. Could

23:35

you give me a sense of

23:37

the long term effects of this

23:39

to suit? Because and some ways

23:42

the still with us. I

23:44

can a long term effect to

23:46

the wall that the Spice Islands

23:48

where the cove which they paint.

23:51

Bought. This network of trading

23:54

routes who to sadness allowed

23:56

a slow commodities around the

23:58

world that. The same time

24:01

is also the jumping off point

24:03

from which the Portuguese and Spanish

24:05

push further into these, the Portuguese

24:08

into China and then Japan. With.

24:10

Slightly unfortunate consequences for themselves and

24:12

from the facts and then the

24:15

establishment. Of global trading hub

24:17

flight Manila which is going

24:19

to allow goods to fly

24:21

around the world so it

24:24

really moves. What comes after.

24:26

This is one a global

24:28

network of cities. Manila, Macau,

24:30

Mexico City, Seville, Malacca, Lisbon

24:32

go out with her own

24:35

bound together of and trading

24:37

terms. I'm. That provides all

24:39

kinds of things. And. Out

24:41

of this com the most extraordinary

24:44

consequences I think because the return

24:46

for the across the Pacific allows

24:49

the Spanish to take it one

24:51

step further when they start exporting

24:53

silver. From. The Mountains of

24:56

Peru Pato save with a mountain

24:58

in Peru which produce half the

25:00

world's So in the sixteenth and

25:02

seventeenth century, the most extraordinary mining

25:04

boom ever were almost the size

25:06

of London mountain of sixteen thousand

25:08

feet up in the Andes. And

25:10

and fifteen seventy one is like

25:12

a critical moment. I think Manila

25:15

is established as a hub. At

25:17

about the same time the Chinese

25:19

decided to overhaul their tax system

25:21

and that everything should be paid

25:23

for in silver. So what

25:25

happens is that the Spanish import

25:27

vast quantities of silver to sell

25:30

into China. With a place like

25:32

Manila, And Macau. all

25:34

been involved in some triangle

25:36

a trade and back com

25:38

exporting out of china plan

25:41

should elect center japan consumer

25:43

durables like particularly name pottery

25:45

sell all kinds of things

25:47

and it's like a model

25:49

of today everywhere china produce

25:51

and your consumed we have

25:53

got a whole global trading

25:56

system the workhouse flow of

25:58

bullion slows a model By

26:00

the middle of the 16th century, a Portuguese

26:02

nobleman could commission a dinner set

26:04

from Ming China with his coat of arms on it.

26:07

And you see in Vermeer's famous picture

26:09

of a woman with a balance, she's

26:11

weighing silver exactly at the

26:14

same time as a Portuguese missionary in

26:16

China had seen Chinese people doing exactly

26:18

the same thing. So we're starting to

26:20

see this acceleration of

26:22

goods flowing around the world,

26:24

changing all kinds of things.

26:26

We are at that point

26:29

seeing a global economic structure

26:31

coming into place. Well

26:33

of all people, you are

26:36

very well placed to have written about this.

26:38

Anyone who has read your previous works like

26:40

Conqueror's, City of Fortune, 1453, will know

26:44

that you deeply understand

26:46

things like empire and trade

26:49

and expansion and colonialism and

26:51

at the same time write

26:54

utterly beautifully. And your

26:56

new book is no exception. So those

26:58

who have had their appetites sweated, if

27:00

we can say that, Buy the Spice today

27:02

should pick up a copy of your

27:04

new book. Thank you so much for taking

27:06

the time to give us a flavour of it. Thanks

27:13

very much, I know you've really enjoyed it. And

27:22

thanks to you for listening to Not Just the

27:25

Tudors from History Hit. And also

27:27

to my researcher Alice Smith and my

27:29

producer Rob Weinberg. We are

27:31

always eager to hear from you, so do drop

27:33

us a line at notjustthetudors at historyhit.com

27:36

or on X, formerly known as Twitter, at

27:39

notjusttudors. And please remember

27:41

to follow Not Just the Tudors wherever you get

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your podcasts, so you get each new episode as

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soon as it's released. X

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