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0:30

All the well as any Jews who

0:32

subsequently arrived be segregated to their own

0:34

quarter, a quarter that became known as

0:36

the Jewish Ghetto. Despite

0:39

a restriction on movement and home

0:41

ownership, despite segregation, higher taxes and

0:43

an increase of at least a

0:45

third above the rental price given

0:47

to a Christian, the ghetto

0:50

became a haven, a flourishing place

0:52

for the Jewish cultural renaissance.

0:55

Among the notable men and women

0:57

living there were the poet Sarah

0:59

Kopje Solam, the philosopher Leonie Abreu,

1:02

the musician Christian Tamudis and Elijah

1:04

Halphon who became an advisor to

1:06

Henry VIII. We might

1:09

then ask why does the fictional Sherlock,

1:11

Abberish's money lender immortalized in Shakespeare's

1:14

Merchant of Venice, remain the most

1:16

famous Jew of early modern Venice?

1:19

How do we go about restoring these

1:21

remarkable stories to Venice's history?

1:25

Joining me to discuss these questions

1:27

among others is Harry Friedman, author

1:29

of a new book, Shylock's Venice,

1:31

the remarkable history of Venice's Jews

1:33

and the ghetto. Harry,

1:42

welcome to Not Just the Tudors. My

1:44

pleasure. Thank you for inviting me to that. To start, could you briefly set

1:46

the scene for us in terms of what was happening in

1:49

Venice as well as Europe more widely that caused the Venetian

1:51

government at this time to construct the world's first Let

2:01

me go back very briefly, 200 years,

2:04

to the Black Plague in Germany and

2:07

the blame has been put on the Jews

2:09

in Germany for starting the plague. That's quite

2:11

common in those days. And they

2:13

flee from Germany, flee down into northern Italy. And

2:17

they end up in Milan and around Venice,

2:19

but the Venetians won't let them into the

2:21

city of Venice itself. They tell them they

2:23

have to stay on the mainland. Now,

2:26

in those days, Jews are restricted from

2:29

most trades. There are very, very few things they

2:31

can do. The only profession they can do is

2:33

medicine. They can be doctors, that's all. And in

2:35

terms of any other trade, they can't do anything

2:37

agricultural, they can't own land. They

2:39

can lend money because the church forbids Christians

2:41

from lending money. And although Christians do lend

2:44

money, they do it at very exorbitant rates

2:46

because they're going against the church. So

2:49

the Jews are allowed to lend money and

2:51

they basically become not so much moneylenders as

2:53

pawnbrokers. There is this sort of idea of wealthy

2:56

Jewish moneylenders and they're well one or two,

2:58

but the majority of them are pawnbrokers. And

3:00

they're really giving what I would call payday loans to

3:03

people who just need a few coppers to tie them

3:05

over for a week until they get their wages. The

3:08

Jews are living, and we're now coming out to the end

3:10

of the 15th century, they're living in

3:12

the Venetian territories on the mainland. And

3:15

the nearest point where they live is

3:17

the town of Mestre, which is just

3:19

across the lagoon from Venice. And

3:22

they're allowed to come into Venice for 15 days

3:24

at a time, but that's all, to do their

3:27

business and they've got to go again. And

3:29

they have to wear a yellow

3:31

badge to distinguish themselves as Jews.

3:33

And until 1496, that's what the

3:35

situation was. In

3:38

1496, the Venetians decide that the Jews

3:40

are overdoing their privileges. They're

3:42

covering up their badges and they're staying in

3:44

the city for longer. So they make more

3:46

yellow hats in a yellow badge. They

3:48

say they can only stay in the city for 15

3:50

days a year rather than 15 days consecutively.

3:53

But, they say, if your lives are

3:55

ever in danger, you can come into the

3:57

city. In 1509, the League of Cambrai,

4:00

which is a coalition of European

4:02

forces, the Pope, the Holy Roman

4:04

Emperor, the King of France, decide

4:07

that the Venetians are too rich, too

4:09

powerful, and they invade the Venetian territories.

4:12

There is a Jewish historian, or young man actually,

4:14

a young man who's a student, who decides

4:16

to write a history of Venice, and he's in

4:19

Padua as his armies approach. And he sees

4:21

what's happening, he writes an account of how everybody

4:24

frees, the Orphe to Mestra, and

4:27

from Mestra the Jews cross the lagoon and

4:29

end up in Venice to save their lives.

4:32

In 1509, that's the first time Jews are living in

4:34

Venice. The Venetians, the Remercon time

4:36

economy, were very mercenary, and they decide that

4:39

they want the Jews to stay there. It

4:41

suits them for the Jews to stay there, because now people

4:44

don't have to cross the lagoon to pawn their goods.

4:47

The Jews who are holding all the pledges, all the deposits

4:49

people made are in the city, not across the lagoon.

4:51

So it makes more sense for them to stay there. And

4:54

there's a commercial opportunity for Venetians

4:56

because they can tax them. And

4:58

the way that taxes worked in those days

5:00

was he taxed the whole community, if not

5:02

individuals, and the community is responsible for raising

5:04

the tax amongst itself. So 1511, for

5:07

the first time, the Jews are living officially

5:09

in Venice, they've been taxed 11,000 ducats

5:12

a year. That's at a time when somebody

5:14

might earn one ducat

5:17

a week, a house will cost 25 ducats

5:19

a year to rent. So it's a lot of

5:21

money. And that amount is being

5:23

shared out amongst the Jews of Venice, who have

5:25

probably number maybe 1000, something like that. That

5:28

goes until 1516. In

5:30

those five years, between 1511, 1516,

5:33

the Venetian authorities, in particular the church, start

5:36

to become offended by the presence of Jews. They don't

5:38

want to come out of the house and see Jews

5:40

living there. There is one very wealthy Jew, a man

5:42

called Vita del Banco, Vita of the Bank, who is

5:45

a wealthy man who's rented a palazzo on one of

5:47

the canals. You know, they don't like this. So there's

5:49

a lot of toing and froing in the Venetian Senate, and

5:51

eventually they decide to move them into a ghetto so they

5:54

can keep them in the city, but keep them out of

5:56

sight. 1516 is when

5:58

they move into the ghetto, the the tenant

6:00

tells all the Christians who are living in the area of

6:02

the ghetto to move out. The Jews

6:04

have to move in, the landlords are told they can charge

6:06

one third more rent because they've now got to have

6:09

Jews living there. And that's the beginning of the ghetto.

6:12

So we shouldn't conceive of a

6:14

golden age of integration prior to the

6:17

construction of the ghetto then? Not

6:19

in Venice, in Spain, yes, but not in Venice, yes.

6:22

So can you describe some of the

6:24

practicalities of the ghetto, how large

6:26

a place it was, where it was

6:28

situated, and how many people live there?

6:30

You said there were perhaps a thousand Jews.

6:33

So the ghetto is still there, if you go to Venice you

6:35

can see it, it's on the canal on the north. It

6:38

is basically a square, four rows

6:40

of houses surrounding a campo, a

6:43

field which is, I suppose, the size

6:45

of a football pitch at the most,

6:47

probably a bit smaller, the width of

6:49

football pitch squared. And

6:51

it's not paved, it's muddy,

6:53

it's in sanitary, there are three wells,

6:56

it's a horrible place, there's no sewage, it's

6:58

a horrible squalid slum.

7:01

And the number of Jews who live there

7:03

fluctuates, probably about a thousand at the beginning,

7:05

but the numbers go up and down, largely

7:07

due to plague, but also due to a

7:10

little bit of immigration when it's allowed. The

7:12

houses are very narrow, and because

7:15

they couldn't spread out, because the ghetto

7:17

is defined by the canals and the

7:19

wall, where there's no canal, and

7:22

gates which are locked at night, so the

7:24

cause for Jews can't spread out as numbers

7:26

increase, they have to go up. And

7:28

they build their houses higher and higher, and they

7:30

make the rooms narrower and narrower, and

7:33

the ceiling's lower and lower to get more and

7:35

more rooms in, and it's standing on very watery

7:38

subsoil, since Venice, and

7:40

it's not just a dirty, horrible place to live,

7:42

it's also a very dangerous place, because the houses

7:44

are so tottery. So that's what it looks

7:46

like. They're allowed out during

7:48

the day, and Venetians are allowed into

7:50

the ghetto during the day, and they do this for

7:52

trade, because this is where the pawnbrokers are, and the

7:54

Venetians are coming in. That's how it starts anyway. The

7:56

Venetians can come in during the day, the Jews can

7:58

go out into the day. town. The

8:01

gates were locked at night. There are four

8:03

centuries posted on the gates and the Jews

8:05

are responsible for paying their wages. The original

8:07

plan was to have a boat patrolling the

8:09

canals at night, but it actually never happened.

8:11

A lot of what the recent societies do,

8:14

they didn't do. They weren't that efficient at

8:16

putting their plans into practice. But

8:18

that's basically what it was, a squalid slum

8:21

with far too many people in it

8:23

for what it could contain. So was

8:25

it possible in these deeply

8:27

constrained circumstances to

8:30

establish any kind of financial stability?

8:32

Well, that's the official version. In

8:35

fact, we know there's much more than that.

8:37

There is, for example, there's a man

8:39

called Moses del Castello, who is a very

8:41

renowned artist. There's Sarah Copiassoula, who is

8:43

one of Italy's most famous early modern poets.

8:46

So there are people who are breaking

8:48

out from constraints, if you like. And

8:51

of course, the guess of itself is almost a

8:53

self-sustaining economy. So if you go into the ghetto,

8:55

you'll find good weather, the stores are out in

8:57

the campo, and the bad weather there in the

8:59

ground floor of the houses. You'll

9:01

find people who are trying bakers

9:04

or people selling groceries, they

9:06

can sell and veils and things like that. So there

9:08

are a number of things they're allowed to sell. But

9:11

you get the impression the whole time that

9:13

the people in the ghetto are pushing the

9:15

boundaries because they're so restricted, they're not afraid

9:17

to do more than they're supposed to do

9:20

and hope they get away with it. You've

9:23

given some sense of the restrictions

9:25

on freedom of movement,

9:27

for example, and indeed

9:30

unemployment, but some of the ways that

9:32

that's being pushed at because the limits are

9:34

so extreme that there is no alternative

9:36

but to do that. Did they have religious

9:38

freedom? Were they free to practice? Oh

9:41

no, I don't think so. It's difficult to understand how

9:43

this works. Apart from

9:45

the ghetto, you've got Jewish merchants who are

9:47

trading between Turkey and Venice. One of the

9:49

reasons why the Galician wanted to keep the

9:51

Jews inside the ghetto once they came in

9:54

was that Vasco Tagama had found

9:56

a route to India around South

9:59

Africa. and is taking

10:01

away a lot of the trade

10:03

because people bring spices and filts

10:05

and things from India, previously had

10:07

to cross the Arabian desert, dangerous,

10:10

slow process, get on a boat

10:12

at Istanbul or Alexandria or someone

10:14

come across the Mediterranean to Venice.

10:16

Venice was a major Mediterranean shipping

10:19

power and trading power. And the

10:21

Portuguese, when Vazgerta Gama found his route, basically took

10:23

a lot of trade away from them. So the

10:25

Venetians are desperate to rebuild their economy. This is

10:27

round about the same time as the Jews are

10:29

fleeing into Venice. The Venetians want

10:32

to have the Jewish merchants, they don't particularly want

10:34

the Jewish poor, but they want the Jewish merchants.

10:36

So you have this small group of

10:38

fairly wealthy merchants who may be living in Turkey

10:41

and coming across with their boats to Venice or

10:43

the other way around. And this is the merchant

10:45

of Venice, this is what Antonio is doing. You

10:48

have those people, and they obviously have

10:50

some money. The ordinary people,

10:52

they're totally impoverished. I mentioned

10:54

the Delbanco family, Vita Delbanco and

10:56

his wealthy and more famous brother

10:58

Anselmo. They've somehow over generations managed

11:00

to turn themselves from pawnbrokers into wealthy

11:03

bankers, but they are a very, very

11:05

small group. Financial stability

11:07

is the least of the Venetian

11:09

ghetto population's worries. So you've given

11:11

some sense of the restrictions on

11:14

freedom of movement, for example, and indeed

11:17

unemployment, but some of the ways that that's

11:20

being pushed at because the limits are so

11:22

extreme that there is no alternative. But to do

11:24

that, did they have religious

11:26

freedom? Were they free to practice? They

11:29

were free to practice their religion, but

11:32

initially they weren't allowed to build any

11:34

synagogues. Now that's not as

11:36

severe as it sounds for Christians that

11:38

severe because Christians need churches. Jews don't

11:40

need synagogues, they just need a space

11:42

so they could congregate in rooms

11:44

and pray. And eventually they do build

11:46

synagogues. By the end, there were five

11:48

synagogues in Venice, but the whole process

11:51

of the guess of existence

11:53

is that every five years, their

11:55

charter comes up for renewal. And

11:57

every five years, the amount of tax they pay

11:59

is increased. or decrease, and the privileges they

12:01

have are added to or taken away. And

12:04

one of the privileges that gradually came was

12:06

the opportunity to build more and more synagogues.

12:08

So they've got rid of freedom.

12:11

Unlike Rome, in the Roman ghetto, the

12:13

Jewish inhabitants of the Roman ghetto are

12:15

forced to hear once a year a

12:17

conversionary sermon. They're forced to go into

12:19

a church and hear somebody usually converted

12:21

due preaching Christianity to them. That doesn't

12:23

happen in Venice. Venice is a much

12:25

more laid back environment. And in fact,

12:27

Venice's own relationship with Rome is much

12:29

more distant than one might

12:31

imagine. There's no inquisition in Venice for a

12:34

long time. And when the inquisition does finally

12:36

get permission to set itself up in Venice,

12:38

the Senate lays conditions down, it tells the

12:41

inquisition that they must have cuff

12:43

of senators on the board. They

12:45

pay lip service to Rome, but they're not

12:47

obliged to Roman in the same way. So

12:49

the Jews are living fairly free lives. And

12:51

the Jews are also not troubled by the

12:54

inquisition. They're only troubled by the inquisition if

12:56

they are what's called Judaizing,

12:58

which basically means trying to persuade people

13:00

to become Jews. And if they do

13:02

that, then the inquisition comes down on

13:04

them. Otherwise, they're left alone. Hey,

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13:52

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History Hit, every Monday and Thursday,

14:14

wherever you get your podcasts. The

14:26

restrictions on them, does it extend

14:28

to Venetians entering the quarter? No,

14:30

so Venetians can come in. Venetians can come in only during

14:33

the day because the gates are locked at night. Venetians

14:35

can come in, and not only can they come in, but they

14:37

do come in. And this is one of the fascinating things. There

14:40

is a decree issued by the Senate at

14:42

one point in the early 16th

14:44

century forbidding the Christians to go

14:46

to a play that the Jews are putting

14:49

on the festival of Pura, which is a

14:51

carnival festival where you have a play every

14:53

year. And the Senate is forbidding the Christians

14:55

to go. Why are they forbidding the Christians

14:57

to go? Because they're going. Otherwise they wouldn't need

14:59

to forbid them. And there's a

15:02

diarist called Marine Sanudo, a Venetian diarist, who

15:04

says, we've been forbidden to go to see

15:06

this play, but actually it was very good.

15:08

Clearly they went in. And more

15:10

than that, the most famous residence of

15:12

the ghetto, I suppose, is a rabbi

15:14

called Leon Modena, Leon of Modena. He's

15:17

a well-repeated rabbi. He has friars

15:20

and Christian nobles coming into the synagogues when

15:22

he's preaching. His reputation is such that the

15:24

sermons they're going to hear there are better

15:26

than the sermons they were hearing in the

15:28

churches. So they're coming into the ghetto

15:30

to hear him preach. So clearly the Christians are coming in. And

15:34

the most famous example of this is

15:37

when Henry VIII sends a l'envoy to

15:39

Venice. Henry VIII, as we know, was

15:41

trying to divorce Catherine of Aragon. He's

15:44

trying to get rid of her by any means. And

15:46

his bishop, John Slokesley, tells

15:49

him that he

15:51

should never have married Catherine because Catherine

15:53

was married to his brother. And it

15:55

says in Leviticus that you can't marry your brother's

15:57

wife or your brother's widow. So

16:00

Henry says great, but the Pope

16:02

says no, but it says in Deuteronomy that

16:04

if your brother dies childless, then

16:06

you are obliged to marry his widow and

16:08

after her die childless. So Henry's courtless horns

16:10

of this dilemma, does the Bible permit me

16:13

to marry her or not? Is the marriage

16:15

valid or not? And the only

16:17

way he can get an answer to that is to

16:19

send an envoy to Venice where

16:21

he sends a man called Richard Croke and

16:23

Richard Croke goes to Venice and he meets

16:26

Friar Francesco Georgi, who's one of the great

16:28

capitalists and mystical thinkers of the

16:30

time. And Georgi lives in

16:32

Venice and has friends and Jewish friends in

16:35

the ghetto. So clearly they're coming backwards and

16:37

forwards. So Georgi takes Richard Croke

16:39

into the ghetto and introduces him to a man

16:41

called Elijah Halfon, who's a rabbi and a

16:45

cabolist. And Croke explains the situation and Halfon

16:47

says, this is ridiculous. Of course, he's

16:50

not obliged to marry his brother's widow. That

16:52

only applies to Jews. So

16:54

Croke says great. But Halfon

16:56

has an enemy or a rival in the

16:59

ghetto, a man called Jacob Mantino. I didn't

17:01

tell you Halfon is a doctor as well as a rabbi and

17:03

Mantino is a doctor and a rabbi and Mantino happens to be

17:05

a friend of the Pope. So the

17:08

Pope asks Mantino what he

17:10

thinks about Halfon's ruling and Mantino says he's completely

17:12

wrong. The guy is obliged to marry his

17:14

brother's widow. So, you know, this goes

17:16

back and forth as it all resolved in

17:18

other ways anyway. But the point here is

17:20

that the rabbis, doctors in the ghetto have

17:22

got friends on the outside, including one who's

17:24

a friend of the Pope. Henry VIII is

17:26

coming to the ghetto. So clearly there is

17:28

interaction between the people in the ghetto and

17:30

outside. Although of course, you have to stress

17:32

this only applies to very small elites, the

17:34

intellectuals and the wealthy. The poor people in

17:36

the ghetto, I think, have no contact with

17:38

anybody except their own kind. But

17:40

it does convey that there is a

17:43

lively intellectual life happening and not only

17:45

happening in the ghetto, but also that

17:47

is famed outside it and across

17:49

Europe in this case. Absolutely. Another point

17:51

I should make about all that, which

17:53

is Venice is the world's leading centre

17:55

for the printing of Hebrew books. There's

17:57

a man called Daniel Bomburg who's Jewish,

17:59

he's a Belgian, comes from Antwerp, he

18:01

moves to Venice, he sets up a

18:03

printing shop, and he gets

18:06

a license to print Hebrew books,

18:08

and he therefore has to employ Hebrew

18:11

printers, or Hebrew scholars, who will

18:13

look at the books, who will censor the

18:15

books, because the church is very insistent that

18:17

nothing can be published, which might criticize Christianity.

18:19

So he has Jewish scholars working in his

18:21

printing press, he has Christians working in his

18:23

printing press, they're all getting on very well

18:25

together. It's an example of really harmonious cooperation

18:27

between the two groups. This is

18:30

why Venice, I think, establishes such a reputation,

18:32

because books spread. Jewish scholars come from all

18:34

over Europe to get their books printed, because

18:36

suddenly we're at the dawn of printing here,

18:38

and they're going back and they're talking about

18:40

this remarkable cooperation in Venice, and Venice becomes

18:43

the center of Jewish life for the whole

18:45

of Europe, even though they're confined

18:47

in a ghetto. And in fact, as

18:49

horrible as it sounds, you're probably

18:51

better off to be a Jew in Venice than

18:53

anywhere else in Europe, because at least your life

18:55

was controlled in some way, you

18:57

couldn't be continued persecuting, people weren't allowed to come

18:59

into the ghetto and persecute you, there were guards

19:02

on the gates. It was very different from if

19:04

you were living, for example, in Germany or Poland.

19:06

That's so interesting. So what obviously

19:08

is a constriction on their freedoms

19:10

and is a form of control,

19:13

nevertheless, actually, to some extent,

19:15

you're suggesting acted as a

19:17

form of protection? More than just a

19:19

form of protection, I would say, you

19:22

know, we know about the Enlightenment, and

19:24

the Renaissance clearly is pre-Enlightenment, you know,

19:26

the seeds are already being sown. The

19:28

seeds are being sown in Venice for

19:31

the Jewish Enlightenment, which is a little

19:33

bit later than the general Enlightenment, and

19:35

is usually regarded as being the start,

19:38

as being in Berlin with Moses Mendelssohn in the

19:40

18th century. And what I would argue is that

19:42

the Jewish Enlightenment is actually starting in Venice 150

19:45

years earlier with people like

19:47

Leonhard Wodena. He's writing

19:49

to scholars in England, John

19:51

Selden, the great time Buddhist

19:53

and parliamentarian in England, quotes

19:56

Leonhard Wodena in some of his works. So

19:59

there's clearly intellectual engagement, even

20:01

if there's not a sort of physical

20:03

engagement between ordinary people. So tell

20:05

me a bit more about some of the

20:07

important figures of that cultural renaissance. You've mentioned

20:10

now intellectuals and you briefly mentioned poets

20:12

and there are musicians and artists and

20:14

philosophers as well aren't there? There are

20:16

all sorts yeah, it's a very vibrant place.

20:18

So the poets, Sarah Coppia Sullam. Sarah

20:21

Sullam is a, again quite wealthy but living

20:23

in the ghetto, but obviously has some sort

20:25

of a house, whether she has a whole

20:27

house or just a floor, she's got something.

20:30

She starts a salon, a literary

20:32

salon and she gets people

20:34

coming in from across Venice, Christians

20:36

and Jews into her literary salon and

20:39

that runs for a few years and she's

20:41

regarded as one of Italy's leading poets of

20:44

the early modern period. She

20:46

has a terrible time of it because not only

20:48

is she a woman, she's a Jew, she's in

20:50

the ghetto, she starts a

20:52

correspondence with a friar in Genoa,

20:54

a man called Cheba and

20:57

Cheba has written a poem based on the biblical book

20:59

of Efta and she's read this poem and she falls

21:01

in love with the poem and she writes in

21:03

Cheba and says how wonderful it is and how she carries

21:05

the poem with her everywhere and Cheba's response

21:07

and they have a correspondence and gradually Cheba, he's

21:10

provoking you more and more, he tells her he

21:12

wants to convert her to Christianity, he tells us

21:14

he's in love with her, all this stuff, she

21:16

has to remind him that she's married, he's silly

21:18

but he's really trying it on with her. Members

21:21

of her salon start to take

21:24

advantage of her, she's accused by one

21:26

of her best friends of another Christian

21:28

friar of denying the immortality of the

21:30

soul which means nothing to us but

21:32

was very big in those days and she

21:34

has to write a whole big

21:37

response denying this. She is victimised

21:39

because she's a woman, because she's a Jew and

21:41

yet at the same time she's an outstanding poet

21:43

and remarkable personality. So you have

21:46

her, you have Simone Lusato, he's

21:48

17th century, he's a philosopher and

21:51

he's living at the time when there's

21:53

a debate going on in Europe about

21:55

toleration, about can Christianity tolerate

21:57

other religions, can Protestants tolerate...

21:59

Catholics and so on. And he

22:02

writes a book called Discourso, the discourse.

22:04

The theme of the book is toleration

22:06

of Jews in Venice, which becomes used

22:08

across Europe as one of the manifestors,

22:10

if you like, one of the polemical

22:12

works arguing in favour of toleration. Then

22:15

you have Salomoni Rossi. Now Salomoni

22:17

Rossi is court musician in Mantua,

22:21

but he comes into Venice regularly.

22:23

And he collaborates with Leon Vodena, the man I told

22:26

you about who has everybody coming to hear his sermons.

22:29

Leon Vodena is a polymath. And among

22:31

his many skills, he's a singer. He's

22:34

the singer in the synagogue. And

22:37

he's concerned that the quality

22:39

of singing and music in the synagogue services

22:41

is very poor. So he and Rossi over

22:44

a period of years collaborate on an operetta,

22:46

if you like, which is a basically synagogue

22:48

service, ends up being called Songs

22:50

of Solomon. And they perform it

22:53

on the Jewish festival and people come in

22:55

from all over Venice to hear it again, Christians

22:57

and Jews all together in the same place in

22:59

the synagogue to hear this. So you've got all

23:01

this intellectual flourishing going on alongside

23:03

the poverty and the misery of living in the

23:05

ghetto. As time goes on,

23:08

the ghetto remains in place, in fact, it's

23:10

there for almost three centuries. How

23:12

does the treatment of Jews change over

23:14

that period of time? Well,

23:17

there are really two main factors. One

23:19

is just general modernisation, the

23:21

status of Jews in Venice,

23:23

as people becomes better. The

23:26

other is economic, because the Republic is really

23:28

being to suffer. And the Jews are still

23:30

the body they can tax. So

23:33

it ends up with Jews being given more and

23:35

more privileges, probably being allowed out of the ghetto

23:37

more frequently than we know, but we don't have

23:39

any records of that. Their lives are probably better.

23:42

But they are being forced to pay

23:44

money to the Senate to

23:46

maintain the nation economy. And

23:49

the only way they can pay this

23:51

money is by borrowing the money from

23:53

the Venetian nobility. Venice is

23:55

in a bind where it's taking money from the

23:57

Jews, Yet the Jews owe money to the.

24:00

The Beatles even if they can't be too harsh on

24:02

the do this because they will never do for money

24:04

you you you might sit in the senate and the

24:06

creed of the tax on it is going to got

24:08

to this amounts and some of his you can be

24:11

your own money would she want to get back so

24:13

you can't be too hard on the delete your money

24:15

back for. Gradually the thing

24:17

since improve but of course it's hard to tell

24:19

because these are not seem to get written down.

24:22

This is interpersonal relationships we don't really get written

24:24

about. It as really interesting enhances

24:26

it source material we have to

24:28

this period know how. You access to

24:30

their senses A sleepless really crucial he says

24:32

I was at Venice. Venice is really good

24:35

record keeping One the reasons why we know

24:37

some of my guess is the recent themselves

24:39

are great recall keepers and the would I

24:41

risk as well but it is in terms

24:43

of sources it's it is difficult British stock

24:45

Also I. The. Parallel between

24:48

way that governments today seem to

24:50

judge immigrants on that to see

24:52

contribution society in the sense that

24:54

at see any improvement so any

24:56

amelioration and cheapen to choose if

24:58

old house in the sense of

25:01

their economic usefulness. Yeah and

25:03

across his sauces are you from this but

25:05

it ends up with you eat Immigrants who

25:07

do the task for your own people do

25:10

and that's the situation when today. Whatever the

25:12

government says this country and most comes in

25:14

the world have relied on another neighbor for

25:16

decades. That's why the reasons decided to allow

25:19

the to to stay and the Sat there

25:21

and guess who is a compromise between we

25:23

need them will be done one. And.

25:25

So we're gonna put him in a place where we don't have

25:27

to see them but the close at hand if we knew where

25:29

we need. So. Aren't was

25:32

your question then tipping out

25:34

fascinating conversation took place. which

25:36

is east mentioned so many

25:38

we'll notable figures emerging. From

25:40

the Jewish Ghetto. So. Why

25:43

is it that the. Most.

25:45

Famous character. Among the

25:47

Jewish Venetian is a six no

25:49

one, six days Merchant of Venice.

25:52

I. Don't think that's that is the detriment

25:54

of the people who lives in The guess.

25:56

I think that is the credit of Shakespeare.

25:58

What Safely Does is or. Going to

26:00

be far more popular Fum a well

26:02

known then what fun guy living seventeenth

26:05

century Venice is gonna do with you're

26:07

right I think more the reasons why

26:09

Salafi so famous and arrive safely Have

26:11

Hundred is a wonderful characters are smokers

26:13

have a different because we never know.

26:16

What? To think of side of the me ask

26:18

you questions a lesson to as a an anti

26:20

semitic play refiners missing say. Well, that's precisely

26:22

the thing. About. Trying to for isn't exactly

26:25

and the only way you consume. even though

26:27

Prozac question is not to look at Venice

26:29

and silent which looks Shakespeare this able to

26:31

safely know about jews and what does the

26:34

state of jews in England which taste is

26:36

rising costs. Jews are banned from England so

26:38

been there are few is a fascinating subject.

26:40

When I will say though is see very

26:42

clear the Shakespeare didn't know about the ghetto.

26:45

Because. He has silent living in a house

26:47

with clearly com be in the ghetto. And

26:50

yet I, the Sonic is living in

26:52

the fifteen cents he was. seems unlikely.

26:55

Of is having sex is time. Six? Who

26:57

doesn't know? by the guess? that and this

26:59

is quite odd because sex been those. Sir.

27:02

Henry wasn't for example who the ignition buses

27:04

or to Venice who is a friend of

27:06

Leo Medina who is the guy to coming

27:08

back to so the circus who connection overlap

27:10

live. He doesn't know about the guess I

27:13

just decided to ignore it. The silent quite

27:15

clearly doesn't live in the guess in and

27:17

them I find very interesting. Is

27:19

it's illnesses of six days imagining

27:22

an alternative units arsenal tend to

27:24

sadness in which to escape would

27:26

do just less amongst everybody else.

27:28

Axis mimi centurions relate. used to

27:30

be christians in the street on

27:32

the day but the the interaction

27:34

between San Antonio suggests their neighbors

27:37

or did to fly is fascinating.

27:39

Well I like your question very much

27:41

at slump russell to ponder. And think

27:43

about the not as independent somewhat. she's actually trying

27:45

to get a good mile citizen. It is not

27:47

an anti semitic play. Whether it's finest mitigate some

27:50

ios setting or anti semitic as my view. Well.

27:52

thank you and thank you so much

27:54

introducing us to this really see so

27:57

development in the treatment to choose people

28:00

You know, we all think of getters and

28:02

what they come to be in later centuries,

28:04

but it's so important to know about the

28:06

origins and understand what

28:09

was trying to be achieved by the Venetians

28:11

and what the Jewish people managed to achieve

28:13

despite them. Good work wasn't it? There's

28:16

a lot more in my book, Shylock's Finest, and you know,

28:18

I love writing that book because it just

28:20

opened up so many new avenues for

28:22

me. So yeah, it was a great period in history.

28:24

If you live now and you're looking back on it.

28:26

And this book is highly recommended. So

28:29

the full title to remind everybody is

28:31

Shylock's Venice, The Remarkable History of Venice's

28:33

Jews and the Ghetto. Harry

28:35

Friedman, author of that book. Thank you so much for

28:37

coming on. Thank you for inviting me. Thank

28:40

you very much. And

28:48

thanks to you for listening to Not Just

28:50

the Tudors from History Hit and

28:52

also to my researcher Alice Smith and

28:54

my producer Rob Weinberg. We are always

28:56

eager to hear from you. So do

28:59

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