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1:10

On with the same time life. waiting

1:12

for change, new does not come. Unless

1:15

you're crap opportunity by the hand

1:17

and never let go. Airing

1:24

on. Sky is a stunning

1:26

new series. Marry and George

1:28

certain appeared that frankly doesn't

1:30

get it's fair share of

1:32

Tv time, the Jacobean era

1:34

ak the early seventeenth century

1:36

reign of James the Six

1:38

and first starring Julianne Moore

1:40

as Marry Nicholas gotten seen

1:42

as George and Tony Kern

1:44

as the King it brings

1:46

to the screen a historical

1:48

story that in the queer

1:50

caught of James the Six

1:52

and first the beautiful and

1:54

charismatic. George Villiers captured the

1:57

favor trust and love. Of

1:59

the king. The drama amplifies

2:01

what history tells us. That. It

2:03

was due to his mother Mary who had

2:06

a hand in leading has some to the

2:08

king said. From your

2:10

wife sort of just ago and.

2:13

I think I am higher. Same

2:15

time. Soon app thorpe with his

2:18

brother in law, the Danish came

2:20

and a new friends tell me

2:22

they're opening up that. He

2:24

won't read the whole the man's

2:26

car he swallows amazing specific to

2:28

it's not a man, it's a

2:31

king. So

2:33

are you ready for some that to steal?

2:35

Not. That was a daring. Move

2:38

and Eight ultimately paid.

2:40

Off in sixteen sixteen, James

2:42

declared before his Privy Council.

2:44

Of huge, newly. Raise to the

2:47

Odom of Buckingham. You may be

2:49

sure that I loved the Earl

2:51

of Buckingham more than anyone else.

2:53

Jesus Christ did the same that

2:55

are cannot. Be blamed. Christ

2:57

had his John and I

2:59

have my tools. But.

3:02

All wouldn't go smoothly.

3:05

Million. Jews. The series is inspired

3:07

by Benjamin What his book, The

3:09

Kings Assassin Benjamin What He has

3:11

written on a number of people

3:13

from this period, including stock John

3:15

Dee, and he acted as a

3:17

historic consultant on the show. He.

3:20

Joins me today to talk about

3:22

fact and fiction when it comes

3:24

to marry James. And his

3:26

to. When

3:34

he welcomes not just the T is. Oh

3:36

thank you! Very. Exciting me

3:38

your book. The Kings

3:40

Assassin is now a

3:42

major television series. Marry

3:44

and George How does

3:47

that feel? I would

3:49

be lying if I didn't say it

3:51

feels really good. It's obviously an unusual

3:53

situation to find oneself in. This.

3:55

Does not happen to every history

3:57

book for fun? might right? to

4:00

see it come to life in this

4:02

way has been an incredible

4:04

adventure for me. And the

4:07

biggest surprise for me, I suppose,

4:09

is how embracing the production

4:11

was of the history. I

4:14

set out right from the beginning that

4:16

I saw the history as being there

4:18

to inspire, not to contain the drama.

4:21

And they certainly were

4:23

happy to go with that. And

4:26

a scriptwriter, Dave Moore, so he

4:28

did the adaptation. I just

4:30

loved the vivid way he brought

4:32

the story to the screen, basing

4:34

it on what I'd written in the book. Yes.

4:37

And there's lots of moments where watching

4:39

it with my partner, I was saying,

4:41

Oh, no, no, that bit that is true. Yeah,

4:43

no, no, that did happen. But there's some things

4:45

where there's a bit of creative license. And I

4:47

think perhaps what we're going to do today is

4:50

have a chat about the history, what we see

4:52

on screen, and help people understand a bit of

4:54

what really happened to use

4:56

that 19th century phrase. So the series

4:59

opens at the time that George

5:01

Villiers senior has died, which in

5:03

reality was in 1606, I

5:06

understand it. And in the series, Mary

5:08

has a hand in this. Perhaps you

5:10

can introduce us to the character of

5:13

Mary Villiers, what really happened

5:15

at the time of her husband's death

5:17

and what situation it left Mary in.

5:20

I'm quite glad you picked that one out

5:22

because that's one of the areas where we

5:24

had some lively discussions about what

5:26

I knew the history and what they

5:28

were doing in the drama. And it

5:31

was a very interesting case study in

5:33

how you dramatize something. So Sir

5:35

George Villiers, who is confusingly

5:38

as names are at this period, everyone

5:40

has the same name in

5:42

a family. So George's father, the

5:44

George in Mary and George's father,

5:46

Sir George Villiers, he was

5:49

an interesting, slightly rascal character who came

5:51

from basically provincial gentry in Leicestershire and

5:53

married this extraordinary woman who was a

5:55

Beaumont. She claimed that she was a

5:57

woman, and she was a woman who

5:59

had a very descent of five European

6:01

kings. She certainly had a sense right

6:04

from the beginning of her own rank

6:07

that the world was failing to acknowledge.

6:09

So George and Mary I think had quite

6:11

a productive relationship. They did in terms of

6:13

children, which was obviously important at the time.

6:16

He became a Leicestershire MP, actually

6:19

alongside one of Mary's

6:21

kinsmen. He was obviously

6:23

very ambitious himself. The villier's

6:26

name, it sounds French, doesn't it? It goes

6:28

back to the Normans. He wanted to build

6:30

a dynasty and the two of them set

6:32

about it together. Then he died.

6:34

He probably died a plague when

6:37

James's first parliament was starting

6:39

to get underway. A sign

6:42

of the relationship they

6:44

had comes actually after Mary's death.

6:46

Mary designed her own memorial, which

6:48

sits in Westminster Abbey. I mean,

6:51

it's absolutely amazing. Her and her

6:53

son lie among the kings and

6:55

queens of Britain in

6:57

Westminster Abbey. She's there lying

6:59

next to Sir George. I

7:03

think those two were kind of in

7:05

cahoots in a mission to

7:08

get the rank they thought they

7:10

deserved. But when it came to

7:12

the drama, all of that was

7:14

far too complicated. It would have involved

7:16

establishing Sir George as an MP. The

7:20

complexities of their relationship quickly

7:23

became apparent. You couldn't do that. You just

7:25

simply couldn't do that. It would complicate too

7:28

much Mary's starting position in terms of the

7:30

unfolding of the narrative. He ends up being

7:32

a bit of a monster and she ends

7:34

up basically killing him. That's the

7:36

outcome of the fight that they have. That's

7:38

what happens in the drama. So those are

7:40

in the first few minutes of the drama.

7:43

Me and Dave and Liza Marshall, who's the

7:45

producer, had discussions about this. And

7:47

I came to see what was going

7:49

to happen as this process continued. And

7:51

I, to be clear, didn't mind because

7:53

I saw it from the start as

7:55

a drama. It's not history. It's not

7:57

a historical reconstruction. It's not some people.

8:00

going out into the middle of a muddy

8:02

field and trying to reenact a battle using

8:05

the original weapons and all

8:07

that kind of business. It's

8:09

a drama and drama has

8:11

very clear priorities and

8:14

history can just provide a firm

8:16

foundation for it. That was how

8:18

George Sr came to sort of

8:20

evolve as the story of

8:22

Mary and George evolved for the drama. And

8:25

in the series it's implied, not only

8:28

implied in fact, I think it becomes

8:30

established as time goes on, that Mary

8:32

has secrets. That's a bit of creative

8:34

license, isn't it? Yes. The

8:37

thing that made Mary, in a

8:39

way, a very tempting subject was

8:42

how little there was in

8:45

the historical record about her. Like so

8:47

many women of that period, even though

8:49

she became the Countess of Buckingham, a

8:52

title that James essentially made up for

8:54

her, it wasn't a heritable title. He

8:56

became Duke, George that is, which of

8:58

course is a title normally reserved for

9:00

members of the royal family. But she

9:02

was given this special title and

9:05

most of the information about her in the

9:07

historical record is basically written by her enemies

9:09

when they saw her as this terrible upstart

9:11

who was elbowing her way into court. So

9:14

they're all very unflattering. They're all about her

9:16

being a serving woman and things like that,

9:19

i.e. being a lowly person and

9:21

wanting to diminish her rank. So

9:24

it was very difficult to find

9:26

out much about her. There are a few

9:29

letters, there are some letters she exchanged with

9:31

George. She curiously doesn't give away a lot

9:33

in those letters, those that

9:35

survive. So she's quite a difficult person

9:37

to find out much about, but she

9:39

was clearly important, intriguing. She was the

9:41

person who weaponized her son to get

9:43

him into court and to get the

9:45

villiers name established, get her children

9:48

married off to other courtiers and so

9:50

on. And the length she

9:52

went to do that clearly showed her

9:54

determination. But there were these gaps

9:56

and they could be filled, which Dave

9:58

was happy to do. with her

10:01

secrets, these relationships that she had,

10:03

which the series alludes to, in

10:07

particular a relationship with a character

10:09

called Sandy, who is a product

10:11

of Dave's imagination. But

10:13

they're for a dramatic purpose, which was to

10:16

show what Mary was

10:18

having to deal with and how

10:20

she tried to find the

10:22

comforts, as it were, that would

10:24

help her pursue this extraordinarily ambitious

10:27

target of hers, which was to

10:29

get her son and her children

10:31

into court. So I think

10:33

that's where the license comes in, and

10:36

she was a very inviting target from that

10:38

point of view. And it needed to be

10:40

a meaty role to attract somebody like Julianne

10:42

Moore, and it needed to have somebody like

10:45

Julianne Moore for money to come forth to

10:47

turn it into the kind of

10:49

drama that's been produced. Absolutely. And

10:51

it's an incredible scale of drama.

10:53

I mean, it's beautiful for a

10:56

start, and very evocative. And

10:58

actually, from what you've said, although it

11:00

is true that these secrets did not

11:03

exist, there is a kind of

11:05

foundation of truth there, isn't there, which is that she's

11:08

being castigated for being lowly born and

11:10

trying to make out that she's quite

11:12

high born. And I was

11:14

also struck in your book by the

11:16

fact that there is some evidence also

11:19

that Mary was unscrupulous. One of the

11:21

complications that the drama has to evade

11:23

is that she actually has a marriage

11:25

between her marriage to George Rillias

11:28

and that to Sir Thomas Compton. And then

11:30

the way she handles that, to the 80-something

11:32

year old, to William Raynor, one

11:34

could arguably note something about her

11:36

character, couldn't we? Oh,

11:39

yes. When Sir George died,

11:41

perhaps one of the most exciting finds

11:43

when I was going through, this was

11:45

at the Bodleian in Oxford. I found

11:47

this list of debtors that he left

11:49

behind, and the debts he left were

11:51

astronomical. Very interesting ones as well, like

11:53

for a coat. Can't remember how

11:55

much it was, but I worked it out using

11:57

the various tools that we have at our disposal.

12:00

to try and work out the value of things

12:02

in the past. The code was equivalent to the

12:04

annual salary of a carpenter or

12:06

blacksmith or something. It was a

12:08

pretty huge amount of money, particularly for

12:11

somebody so impetuneous as George. But

12:13

obviously those are the risks you have to take. Those

12:15

are the debts you take on board in order to

12:17

try to fake it until

12:19

you make it, to use a contemporary phrase,

12:22

to show off and try and get the

12:24

notice that you need to improve your rank

12:26

in society. So she was saddled

12:28

with these debts and in a desperate attempt to

12:30

try and deal with it, she basically married a

12:32

man in his 80s, one of her

12:35

desers. And then she proceeded to

12:37

try and relieve him of all his movable

12:39

property and take it back to her

12:41

home. And he virtually on his deathbed objected

12:44

to this. It ended up in court, which

12:46

is how we know about it. But

12:48

then he died, but by that stage, he had

12:50

disinherited her. So she was back to stage one

12:52

and she had to start again. And

12:55

that led to the marriage to Thomas

12:57

Compton, Plato have to say

12:59

marvelously by the actor, Sean Gilda in

13:01

the series, hilariously, I would say. I

13:04

agree. I mean, perhaps my favorite character.

13:06

Yes, he is. And actually in a

13:08

way, there's very little that one can

13:10

read into Sir Thomas. He comes over

13:12

as fairly characterless in the historical record.

13:15

And I love the character that was

13:17

provided for him in this context, but

13:19

it must, to a certain extent, reflect

13:22

what Sir Thomas was about.

13:24

Because he had courtly connections. He was

13:26

a really good find for

13:28

her and provided the stage

13:30

basically from which she could

13:32

launch her hugely ambitious

13:34

schemes. And why did

13:37

her hopes rest on her third

13:40

born son, her second to survive, George?

13:43

And what do we know, if

13:45

anything, really about the mother-son relationship?

13:47

With respect to why she put

13:50

everything, all her hopes

13:52

and dreams On

13:54

advancing George's career was because

13:56

John was. Basically, this is

13:58

reflected in the. Drama John

14:00

I studied say had mental illnesses

14:02

right from the beginning. He was

14:05

a very unstable character. And

14:07

the opening tax or I call as

14:09

they owed the episode of the series

14:11

called Second Son because second funds at

14:13

a terribly difficult time in this period

14:15

the they stood to inherit nothing essentially

14:17

to that the make a life for

14:20

themselves. But it was different in this

14:22

case. I think that's one of the most notable

14:24

features about towards his career and how much it

14:26

must have therefore depended on marry. But. As

14:28

he stood to inherit nothing and even

14:31

worse, a because of her second marriage.

14:33

They. Were half siblings involved as well?

14:36

So the whole picture in terms

14:38

of what he stood to inherit

14:40

was both complex and bleak. And

14:43

so she put everything into cultivating

14:45

George and they had a very

14:47

close relationship. He wrote in one

14:49

letter that he describes his love

14:51

for her as more than merely

14:54

a sons love I can't remember

14:56

the exact phrase, and I dunno

14:58

what he meant by that. Blesses

15:00

at this time work quite emotionally

15:03

open, often with it policy when

15:05

that wasn't official correspondence, and that's

15:07

one of the things that marks

15:09

the historical underpinnings. As be said

15:11

for the entire. Story It's letters

15:14

between George in his mother and

15:16

between George and James and Marry

15:18

An extraordinary sets of letters that

15:21

fortunately some of which devised was

15:23

do so that they had a

15:25

very deep as physical the almost

15:28

sake with feeling and I hope

15:30

and ambition and talk about marrying

15:32

George there. Which. Was

15:34

interesting to see being explored in the

15:37

series, as by the never smelled On

15:39

contest police enough through the research to

15:41

really explore the nature of that relationship

15:44

or not say that was quite frustrating.

15:46

It's implied l in the series that do is

15:48

not have the same father as his siblings. Not

15:51

least because he's. Drop.

15:53

Dead Gorgeous and the other siblings or his employees

15:55

other an aunt quite a good looking. Is

15:58

there any a historical. evidence is

16:00

suggest this illegitimacy?

16:03

No, not only that, there's also a suggestion which

16:05

is far more credible that she wasn't even a

16:07

Beaumont, that Mary wasn't even a member of the

16:09

family she claimed to be, which is

16:12

an intriguing dimension. And that isn't

16:14

impossible. Rank rested on genealogy, and

16:16

genealogy was not well recorded at

16:18

the time, as we know

16:20

if we're hoping to find birth certificates

16:22

and such like relating to these figures.

16:25

I think he was probably her legitimate son.

16:27

I think that the way the siblings worked

16:30

together, because he had these two brothers and

16:32

a sister, there's the four of them. I'm

16:34

one of four, although I've got only brothers,

16:36

but I know some of the dynamics of

16:38

that kind of configuration. The great delights of

16:41

doing the drama is I met all the

16:43

actors who played George's siblings, and

16:45

they formed a family in the making of

16:47

the production because it's a very intense process.

16:49

People are together for a long period of

16:51

time, several months. And I also

16:54

loved the way that the script explored

16:56

all the relationships between the siblings. And

16:58

I think they were absolutely vital historically

17:01

in what happened to George and

17:04

how they formed part of Mary's, if

17:06

one can see it as Mary's scheme,

17:08

but how they all played their various

17:11

roles and also provided their various obstacles

17:13

to her achieving her

17:15

ambitions. But John was not a

17:17

firstborn who was going to lead

17:19

the way, it just wouldn't have

17:21

worked. So she focused on George.

17:23

And by all accounts, he was

17:25

absolutely gorgeous, very charismatic, just

17:27

really easy to like, I think, except

17:30

of course, if he was somebody who

17:32

was getting in your way, if you

17:34

were somebody else in court and found

17:36

him to be a rival, but he

17:38

was quite easy to like, I think,

17:40

and had this odd combination of arrogance

17:42

and humility, which keeps surfacing. In

17:45

your book, we have some reproductions of

17:47

the images of George Williams. And

17:49

you can see how remarkably

17:52

good looking he is even from these. And

17:54

that's not always apparent from portraits of the

17:56

time, sometimes in quite often when I'm working

17:58

on Henry VIII, it says, absolutely

18:00

gorgeous, a word to that effect in early

18:02

16th century phrasing. And then you

18:04

look at your pictures and you say, oh really? I

18:06

mean, I think it's all in the eye of the

18:09

beholder. Whereas actually, we look at these, you think, yeah,

18:11

I think he would pass us that today. And that's

18:13

quite interesting. The sources all seem to reflect his

18:16

nature, that character that makes him

18:18

very likeable. Yes, the

18:20

portrait that did it for me was actually

18:22

one by Van Dyke, which wasn't a portrait.

18:25

It's described as Venus and a Donis. It's

18:27

exactly the one I just turned to, actually, exactly

18:29

that one. It's absolutely gorgeous. It's

18:32

very interesting because of the portrayal,

18:34

actually, of Venus, who is Catherine,

18:36

George's wife. It's not

18:39

flattering on her. And I don't think

18:41

in a way to insult her, oddly,

18:43

I think almost the opposite is to

18:45

try and demonstrate the relationship that they

18:47

had, and that she

18:49

wasn't just a trophy wife, to use a

18:51

sort of contemporary term. I

18:53

thought it was fascinating portrait. But as

18:55

you say, yes, it's the one that

18:57

shows clearly what a sexy creature he

18:59

was and how there's some pretty awful

19:01

portraits as well, including the one that

19:03

I showed to Liza, the producer, when

19:06

we had our initial meeting about the

19:08

whole thing at the National Portrait Gallery,

19:10

we went downstairs to the room where

19:12

it's all been rearranged now, but where

19:15

they had George alongside Shakespeare and James,

19:17

a marvellous portrait of James, one of

19:19

the best, where he does look like

19:21

he doesn't, why am I here?

19:23

How did I get this crown on my

19:26

head? It's just a remarkable portrait. He

19:28

was a very charismatic young man. And at

19:30

the time when performance and charisma

19:32

was so important to power, he was

19:36

just the person needed to do the job

19:38

that Mary wanted him to do. Now

19:40

we'll come on to territory, which is far more historically

19:43

robust in a second. But first of all, let's talk

19:45

about France. Because George did

19:47

go to France, although in reality, his elder

19:49

brother John went to, what do

19:52

we know in reality about that time?

19:54

What do you make of its depiction

19:56

in the series? So Basically, his mother

19:59

packs him off. The problem in order

20:01

to learn some manners as Basic put it

20:03

in the crude possible terms. and he did

20:05

go with his brother and his fancy, Tommy

20:07

Thompson who provided the means of doing that.

20:10

We. Know absolutely be the next to nothing

20:12

about what happened in France. Who was

20:14

ways but he was doing. And

20:17

into that void in the drama was

20:19

poured. He could say

20:21

bit of a stereotype of France

20:23

as basically a venue for orgies

20:26

and that this is what led

20:28

to George's sexual awakening, to which

20:30

I reply, why not something about

20:33

dramas, things happen in seconds in

20:35

terms of what actually comes up

20:37

on screen and you have to

20:40

establish things so quickly. So.

20:42

You have to often reach for tools

20:44

that are quite crude but.makes room for

20:46

the stuff that really delivers in terms

20:49

of the subtleties and the development of

20:51

the character. Get a plot rolling along

20:53

with is what you need to have.

20:55

This is one drama in the midst

20:57

of thousands that are available to us

20:59

these days. The things have to be

21:02

moving along at a pace so sober

21:04

assessment of was actually he did in

21:06

France while he was. that isn't gonna

21:08

happen. And. They would be

21:10

very difficult to do that in a way that

21:12

was a historically authentic anyway because we know so

21:14

little about the what we do know is he

21:17

went a boy and he came back a man

21:19

said speak That much seems to be clear. And

21:21

it was the So the transformation it's

21:24

a very well just moved with his

21:26

the transformation that was needed to progress

21:28

towards his career. Is a

21:30

interesting because Snc earlier we have

21:32

and them engaged to France and

21:34

the same sources thing happens in

21:37

representation had time and renaissance France

21:39

as stooges him throughout France and

21:41

I suppose it's trying to convey.

21:44

His. Something somewhere sophisticated is

21:46

catches educated, full of bright,

21:49

brilliant people who know how

21:51

to dance and who know

21:53

how to conduct. themselves and that's

21:55

had that of a little as two

21:57

to sex in there as well stick

22:00

shorthand, isn't it? I would add there

22:02

was also a cleverness to the move

22:04

historically, which was, of course, the court

22:06

of King James was very

22:08

francophile. The Scottish court generally, James's

22:10

first sort of, shall we call

22:13

him, lover, but Esme Stewart was

22:15

French, essentially. And so giving

22:17

George that French polish was an

22:19

extremely deft move in terms of

22:22

progressing his career at court. So

22:24

there was that aspect to it

22:26

too. But yes, France was always

22:28

associated with manners, sophistication. And that's

22:31

true to a certain extent. And let's face

22:33

it, England was a bit of a backwater

22:35

at the time, even after the Tudors, we've

22:37

only got to look at the quality of

22:39

the painting. We talked about a lovely

22:42

portrait of George and James, but that's by

22:44

van Dyck. And English portraiture, let

22:46

alone everything else, was way behind what

22:48

was happening on the continent. So that

22:50

was the place to go to get

22:52

the sense of a bit of French polish. And

22:55

when George comes back, what

22:57

do we know about Mary's

22:59

role in sending him to court?

23:02

So this is where it gets very

23:05

tricky to establish exactly what happened. What

23:07

I imagined happened is she essentially, he

23:09

might have been enthusiastic about it, we

23:12

don't know, but essentially made him go

23:14

to London. So make the trip the

23:16

King's way from Leicestershire to London, and

23:20

just get his face noticed. And

23:22

he actually seems to have fallen

23:24

in love with a young woman

23:26

whose father had close connection with

23:28

court, and was more or less

23:30

ready to try and marry her.

23:32

We know about it because the

23:35

family did everything in

23:37

their power to stop this upstart

23:39

basically getting a foothold in their

23:41

dynasty. That was repulsed, but it

23:43

got him noticed. And then Mary

23:46

had a role with Compton's help,

23:48

I think, in getting him

23:50

noticed by, let's face

23:52

it, you need some aristocratic backing if

23:54

you're going to get this done. And

23:56

that's what there was a growing body

23:59

of resentment among. among the aristocratic elite

24:01

at the time that James surrounded

24:03

himself by these Scottish minions blocking

24:05

the sunlight of his majesty or

24:07

whatever the phrase was so that

24:10

they needed to get an Englishman

24:12

into the royal bedchamber, not for

24:14

reasons of sexual connections, but simply

24:16

because the bedchamber was the locus

24:18

of power at the time because

24:20

James ran that kind of court.

24:23

It was taken over by a

24:26

set of major English figures within

24:28

the court who engineered George essentially

24:30

to be plonked in front of James

24:32

at vital moments, particularly moments when James

24:35

might have been vulnerable to being noticed

24:37

and when it wouldn't arouse the rage

24:39

and rivalry of Somerset, who was the

24:41

king's favorite at the time. So

24:44

that was all orchestrated, not by Mary

24:47

alone, if at all, to be honest,

24:49

because she wasn't in a position to

24:51

do that, but by the people who

24:53

came to see George as their opportunity

24:55

to unlock the king's bedchamber for the

24:57

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to you by History Hit. There

26:52

is some evidence that she draws on the

26:54

help of Sir John Graham, that

26:56

senior courtier at an early stage. Is

26:58

that right? Pembroke comes on

27:00

the scene. So he's a much more

27:02

senior aristocrat and that provides the power

27:05

to actually get things done. I think

27:07

if he hadn't been involved, there was

27:09

a little coterie that got together to

27:12

essentially plot and they looked at casting

27:14

around for somebody, anyone suitable to try

27:16

and get Jane's attention. And she was

27:18

obviously clever enough to present a good

27:21

candidate at the right time and maybe

27:23

lucky enough to. And that

27:26

botched meat cute at

27:28

Apethorpe, the scene in which

27:30

George goes flying through the

27:32

air in 1614.

27:34

Did that essentially happen? It's

27:37

that stranger than fiction thing. It's not

27:39

really strange, but it really did happen

27:41

more or less as it's portrayed, although

27:43

he probably wasn't carrying that amazing plate

27:45

of meat. I have to say the

27:47

people who do the food on these

27:49

shows just created some stunning Meals.

27:52

Although I Had to keep reminding them that knives

27:54

and forks shouldn't be placed either sides of plates

27:56

in the sort of modern manner, because it wasn't

27:58

quite like that. That was

28:00

ironically. Where. The history

28:02

really help them because the actors

28:05

adored. Being. Able to pick

28:07

up and think of the food and throw

28:09

it in their mouth. They absolutely love doing

28:11

that and when I was watching the final

28:13

cut of the theories I just saw how

28:16

much they released literally the food in front

28:18

of the month would use their fingers to

28:20

eat it but that seen really happens. My

28:22

big regret is that safe for which is

28:24

the as he says the location of that

28:26

happening. We. Could have film that that's

28:29

a big big theme recreated the nightfall,

28:31

but we ended up because of them.

28:33

The distinct said these things doing It's

28:35

a Chance house in London and it's

28:37

a great scene. beautifully shot. It's one

28:39

of those scenes I rich in detail.

28:42

And everyone looks a gorgeous in it

28:44

since. It as you haven't had a chance

28:46

to see it yet. This to give us

28:48

a summary of of what happened in practice

28:51

which is represented here in this series between

28:53

James and Giunta. So. The first

28:55

opportunity to I had to put George in

28:57

front of James and attract the king's I

28:59

was to a sense he gets him and

29:01

point is hop bearer. So. These

29:04

were offense me servants at

29:06

Royal Infants. Who. Wouldn't necessarily

29:08

to serve wine and but didn't

29:11

servants but they would traditionally young

29:13

up and coming and in James's

29:15

case com the young men. So.

29:18

James who is this restless monitor had

29:20

moving around the countryside decided to go

29:22

from thing at a clever way that

29:24

they dreamed up for getting George in

29:26

front of James was to make him

29:29

a cup bearer of one of the

29:31

banquets that chains was going to attend

29:33

and James who is a very restless

29:35

Monique would move around the country size

29:37

and decide you're going to stay with.

29:39

There is some fortunate quite of the

29:41

middle ranking. Aristocrats, nobles,

29:44

And. Ended up at eight for where

29:46

he was going to go on a

29:48

hunting expedition. As. Had a had

29:50

to lay on this huge banquet but it

29:53

was engineered. The George to be one of

29:55

the cup bear is essentially a servants who

29:57

would not just serve wine but food as

29:59

well. but. One. One as

30:01

a selection of com the young

30:03

men who was specially selected to

30:06

serve the King James decided to

30:08

go and stay in and this

30:10

country house. this mansion called a

30:12

pool which is Northamptonshire. With.

30:15

Big Bang Quit was laid on a move

30:17

that can be a splendid avenge. His father

30:19

in law the King of Denmark, was in

30:21

England at the time. And.

30:23

It was the perfect opportunity for George

30:26

as it were to take the role

30:28

of a cop Berra and kept the

30:30

things I. And. What

30:33

actually happened historically is quite well

30:35

described as essentially George took over

30:37

the role of another cup bearer.

30:39

he's jealous rival decided to. Sabotage.

30:42

George's efforts to get in front of the king.

30:45

And as a result, the whole

30:47

thing. Descended. Into chaos.

30:50

But. Essentially, what happens in

30:53

the drama is essentially what

30:55

happened historically and that was

30:57

possibly curtains for the whole

30:59

project when it came to

31:01

George advancements. a thanks to

31:03

the determination of marry and

31:05

the various thinkers that had

31:07

gathered around George in the

31:09

hope of turning him. Into.

31:12

The new English favorite of the king.

31:14

Meant that wasn't the end of the story. We.

31:17

Have Mary arranging t meet the

31:19

days Queen of England and to

31:21

try and give her a weapon

31:23

with which to. Force the Kings

31:25

current favorite. well because of some

31:27

a set out. In practices,

31:30

you've already said the three,

31:32

these grandees like Pembroke who

31:34

are actually facilitating that. But

31:37

what is extraordinary is that

31:39

an the Queen is involved

31:42

in trying to. Dangle

31:44

before her husband this gorgeous

31:46

oh man. Absolutely Yes.

31:48

So. She's. Up for the

31:51

sort of courtly intrigues and she clearly

31:53

part of it. They live separately. Essentially

31:55

a me most is now Somerset House

31:57

in London was the ten Side Palaces.

32:00

Turbo Denmark House she saw George. This

32:02

is where we get into the stuff

32:04

of really doesn't make into the drama

32:07

which is the political, the most particularly

32:09

religious aspects of the tensions within Cold

32:11

Oversee. We've got the sort of legacy

32:13

of the reformation going on the head

32:16

because James comes from a different the

32:18

please yeah, Stickleback Brown because he of

32:20

as he comes from Scotland, There's a

32:22

lot of suspicion and concerned as to

32:25

whether he's got Roman Catholic leanings. And

32:28

and represent such strong

32:30

process and presence that

32:32

the English support the

32:34

George particularly want to

32:36

exploit. Also. And has

32:38

personal reasons for wanting to get

32:40

George in front of James. She

32:42

ends up conniving in this ensure

32:44

and not at the direct behest

32:46

of marry that seems extremely unlikely

32:48

to The difference in says rank

32:51

would have made it virtually impossible

32:53

for married to a corner, the

32:55

Queen Wells exam on a walk

32:57

and baptist isn't many possible and

32:59

and thing historically speaking and it

33:01

also brings little Prince Charles into

33:03

the picture. Or. Little Prince

33:05

Charles because he is there when

33:07

George really make the transition where

33:10

it's knighted by James and appointed

33:12

a gentleman that the bedchamber and

33:14

then so to speak were off

33:16

when the social climbing can really

33:18

begin. And this moment in

33:20

which George is. Spontaneously knighted

33:23

by the King and the

33:25

an essay to be stages

33:27

amazingly did happen. As far

33:30

as I can tell it sooner. yes it

33:32

is extraordinary is the as he say. It

33:34

was a sort of spontaneous act on the

33:36

kings part and being there is what made

33:38

it possible. I think it's inconceivable that successful

33:41

test you would happen without her big. They're.

33:43

Not. Just the night in the particularly

33:45

making him gentlemen of the bed saying

33:47

that because the calls this kids george

33:49

automatic internet access to the king so

33:52

is there was any question about. His.

33:54

Loyalty or house safety would be

33:56

to have around in that kind

33:59

of position. Was.

34:01

Overcome by her presence in her endorsement

34:03

of them. Won't assessed as we

34:05

need to ask, is why was

34:08

Somerset the kings favorite at the

34:10

time sufficiently unpopular with the Queen

34:12

and with those around the king

34:14

that they wanted to replace him

34:16

because this isn't And replacing Somerset

34:19

because she herself is envious of

34:21

James his affections? Is it? It's

34:23

something more. Than that, correct.

34:25

I've just assumes. In

34:28

my Arms is about this. But. And

34:30

feelings towards James her husband would

34:32

be of no concern when it

34:35

came to us and he introducing

34:37

dealing with one of James's Some

34:39

people might question whether they were

34:42

male lovers. I don't I think.

34:44

We. Now can clearly see that the evidence

34:46

is that he had intimate relations. With

34:49

these men, she wasn't jealous.

34:51

There's no Simon see had

34:53

any sexual jealousy about Somerset

34:55

Position: Because position in the

34:57

royal court based purely down

34:59

politics. Essentially, Somerset was in

35:01

a position of great power.

35:04

Seeding, get on with him. She didn't like

35:06

him. For. Various reasons, his connections

35:08

to the Howard's the Duke of Norfolk,

35:11

all that kind of Coakley stuff as

35:13

his vocal to be rivalries are all

35:15

about Really very complicated. Combinations.

35:18

Of political and personal animosity is

35:20

and friendship and so on and

35:22

so forth. But for those reasons

35:25

he didn't like Somerset prominence in

35:27

court see was basically acts a

35:29

north out of anything to do

35:32

with her feelings towards her husband

35:34

and his relationships. She was doing

35:36

it entirely for political purposes because

35:39

knowing he needed these men around

35:41

you couldn't get a woman in

35:43

that position is a big difference

35:46

between this court. And Elizabeth

35:48

called gender is essential to

35:50

understanding this. Elizabeth was a

35:52

woman and see how to bed chamber

35:54

and she had people in that bedchamber

35:56

see had to be policed heavily and

35:58

securely. Similarly with. But in

36:00

completely the other side of the

36:03

gender divide at the time and.

36:05

It. Wasn't a question of James's

36:07

sexy or meanings or any of

36:09

that I didn't believe. Anyway, I

36:11

think it was to do with

36:14

the politics of who control the

36:16

King's favor basically. and she didn't

36:18

like Somerset. In the

36:20

series we have the king and on his

36:22

royal. Progress We have that going

36:25

hunting. And this is

36:27

a moment in which Somerset is

36:29

setting out to threaten George and

36:31

make it clear that he is

36:33

unwelcome. To What extent did you

36:36

would genuinely have to negotiate around?

36:38

Somerset said quite make sense. I think

36:40

the evidence is that some of that

36:42

was jealous of his position Than for

36:44

George is a clear rival. And

36:47

it escalated is all sorts of

36:49

olds way. So there was that

36:51

area sort of royal functions where

36:53

they were efforts by Somerset supporters

36:55

if you like. To. Try and

36:57

denigrate George in various ways and

36:59

try and steer him away from

37:01

the Royal Bit in the best

37:03

way that they could. The hunting

37:05

seen it which is in the

37:08

drama of As This Funds which

37:10

is as I learned not an

37:12

easy thing to say. It's by

37:14

any means the dynamics of it's

37:16

these marvelous stump riders blue for

37:18

horses, the beautiful horses that would

37:20

turn up in a great because

37:22

fan and the try and build

37:24

the dynamic of the hunt was

37:26

an extraordinarily difficult. But rather amazing thing

37:28

to behold. not that I saw it on

37:30

a happening in front of me and seeing

37:32

the end result. Was amazing but

37:35

he was and actually vital ever the

37:37

hunt. Involving. George and

37:39

James. This is not where the

37:41

Somerset rivalry reached it's peak, but

37:43

there was a hand, and the

37:46

budding of George by James was

37:48

so to speak, the moment where

37:50

George his position seem to be

37:52

utterly insurmountable. So have Somerset witness

37:54

states like that? Undoubtedly the reaction

37:57

that you seen the drama would

37:59

be no. He would have had

38:01

it would have been a clear sign

38:03

that the tide has turned. It is

38:05

a suit, a public declaration, By James

38:07

choosing George to be blooded after

38:10

the hunt, I space and I

38:12

think that it's just such a

38:14

marvelously physical. Intimates.

38:18

Visceral. Literally visceral. Moments.

38:21

And I'm really pleased that they drew on it's

38:23

in the drama. I. Mean I see James

38:25

is portrayed very empathetic. Li in the

38:28

drama is and and I wonder if

38:30

you have a sense. Of what

38:32

towards. Games

38:35

to represent attains.

38:37

After. The death of an during for

38:39

this extraordinary letter to George asking him

38:41

to become his wife. He was clearly

38:44

not just a sausage with him. I

38:46

had a long discussion with the actor

38:48

who played. James. Toney parents

38:50

got presents her I came into

38:52

this I really grew to both

38:54

admire and like James as I

38:56

was researching him for this book.

38:58

He was extraordinary figure and it

39:00

just totally amuses me. but he's

39:02

not known British history. I mean

39:04

I onset of the asking people

39:06

how much do you know about

39:08

the Jacobean? The didn't even know

39:10

what Jacobean, what will cycle to

39:12

do with it. The sort of

39:14

link between Daves and Jacob. Of.

39:17

As the have to know little bit

39:19

of last season though why they call

39:21

Jacobin because of the link but the

39:23

latin for James is Jacob so that

39:25

in itself a bit of a barrier

39:28

to precise in the period and is

39:30

the period of Shakespeare. I mean this

39:32

has been sakes they have flourished dogs

39:34

the road during Elizabeth's rain, but Daves

39:36

with his main patron at this stage

39:38

James was not entirely behind but Dames

39:41

down in North America, England's. First.

39:43

Sort of sustained colony in North America that

39:46

was cool Jamestown off to jail because that's

39:48

when it happened. All these factors make

39:50

this a T period in history. Yes, he's

39:52

not known yet. He remains that sort of

39:55

sign up for many people if they know

39:57

them until the authors that complicated title things

39:59

the Sixers go, but in England. But as

40:01

he couldn't unite the thrones. Very.

40:04

Complicated all round, but he also

40:06

complicated personally. and I told to

40:08

Tony current at length about James

40:10

Purple the start of this production.

40:13

Use Nourished and Fair as Danes

40:15

themselves, top of his own. Upbringing:

40:17

His father murdered his mother, ending

40:19

up in prison in Scotland, then

40:22

executed in England surrounded by murderous

40:24

functional fighting, ending up on the

40:26

Throne of England. Book: This is

40:28

going to upset of Scottish people.

40:30

I don't mean it in a

40:32

disrespectful way, but a kind of

40:35

promotion for him. And then.

40:38

He. Just settling into his

40:40

parliamentary thrown they trump blow

40:42

him up so no wonder

40:45

if paranoid and needy and

40:47

clever and emotionally vulnerable. To.

40:49

He was this beautiful poem about

40:51

the first love of his life

40:54

as my Stewart. He was

40:56

a very interesting, rounded individual and

40:58

office. He got this connection with

41:00

the bible as well the King

41:02

James bible people think he translated

41:04

nothing that but. He

41:06

initiated that enormously important

41:09

literary achievement. So. He's

41:11

just a fascinating character. We need to know

41:13

lot more about him. Yes, And

41:15

assessed ambassador to India, as well

41:17

as an extraordinary. Period. It is

41:19

sort of global Britain was born.

41:21

In this period you could argue

41:24

and turns reaching out beyond Europe

41:26

all about was happening during James

41:28

Rain on I thought that what

41:30

the act a tiny current brought

41:32

to the role was. An

41:34

understanding of the sort of vulnerability,

41:36

both a sense of his power

41:39

and his vulnerability and is both

41:41

kinds of contrast. The make character

41:43

interesting, Even. Describe the kindest

41:45

generational trauma that he experiences or

41:47

said beaten. As a boy, he doesn't

41:50

have his parents around. I mean,

41:52

he's undernourished in loves to nourish. Sincere

41:54

was a good expression that he came

41:56

home. To describe his upbringing, you

41:58

mentioned that you. Certain that

42:00

the relationship between George and James

42:02

was sexual and is a good

42:04

piece of evidence of them consummate

42:06

in their marriage at Farnham. Pass

42:08

on that role progress to to

42:10

Give Us Up because I think

42:13

this is one of the areas

42:15

in which. Because. At

42:17

the time, the nature of

42:19

the physical relationship. Versus not

42:21

talks about In fact, James. If

42:23

anything is publicly very born

42:26

to be anti sodomy and

42:28

as a coach who are

42:30

around talking about these savers

42:32

in those terms as favourites

42:35

that some of that deliberate

42:37

obscuring the happened in the

42:39

seventeenth century is still often

42:41

replicated in history books. Yes,

42:44

I think it is so difficult get

42:46

a clear view of the sex on

42:48

politics from this period and the nature

42:50

of intimacy of has been some really

42:53

good scholarship. Around this perfectly

42:55

Recently for the collection of

42:57

George's Letters to James. This.

43:00

American Academic all birds are and did the collection

43:02

than I did to collect some of the letters

43:04

for and not just George and James Bond between

43:06

James and and favorites. Which. Is cold

43:08

King James letters of homoerotic desire and

43:11

that for the give you a clue

43:13

as to what he found that when

43:15

he was looking at those letters another

43:17

lesser in particular which George Roads and

43:20

James late Sir Emyr and relationship though

43:22

quite frequent bus stops or to want

43:24

was ill and would withdraw from colds

43:27

and this cause James consternation and letters

43:29

were exchanged to try and patch things

43:31

up. And George recalls with

43:33

enormous of section. As. Express

43:36

in the letter of any rate, but

43:38

the Road member the time at Farnham

43:40

Causal where the bedstead could not come

43:42

between a dog and he's Mothra Things

43:44

the phrase he is something along those

43:47

lines and fairly indicating that they shared

43:49

a bed. Now we have to be

43:51

careful with that, because physical intimacy between

43:53

men isn't like it is now. They

43:55

slept together for warmth. Security

43:57

It wasn't unusual for men share

44:00

a bed, and it's certainly the

44:02

King's bedchamber was essentially populated by

44:05

other men at my as well

44:07

as day. So with respect to

44:09

James his attitude to having sex

44:12

relationships with another man, given his

44:14

opposition to sodomy. And.

44:17

Snc, taping up the Law or on

44:19

sodomy. I think that we have to

44:22

sort of really think back through. So

44:24

the idea of homosexuality wasn't a concept.

44:26

That. Wouldn't be recognizable to Jacobean. They wouldn't

44:28

have known what you were talking about. The.

44:31

Prohibition surrounding men having sex

44:34

together. I think we should

44:36

probably think about them more along

44:38

the lines of the laws against

44:40

rape, so they were more about

44:42

the power dynamics. The. Risk

44:44

that saw the to be used

44:46

by powerful men against power. This

44:49

young men those kinds of aspects

44:51

of. It is clear that whatever

44:53

happened to in Georgia James was

44:56

consensual of both parts of is

44:58

it George had a massive most

45:00

is to cultivate James's affections and

45:03

to keep them there. But.

45:05

The says is got say suffering because

45:07

I'm trying to avoid sounding like I'm

45:09

just coming out with a lot of

45:11

euphemisms. That is so difficult to

45:13

talk about this because when we talk

45:15

about putting somebody in, the king said

45:17

same the immediately it sounds sexy. When

45:19

it wasn't it was political when you

45:22

talk about men sleeping together. We use

45:24

the phrase east and heuristically when it

45:26

means in the sixteenth and seventeenth century.

45:28

Literally. Sleeping Together So it's very

45:30

difficult to actually talk about sexual

45:33

politics of a different age. and

45:35

I was really struck by what

45:37

you said that about how we

45:39

conceptualize sexuality. Right now we think

45:41

about it as. About the

45:43

gender of the person with

45:46

whom you are having sexual.

45:48

Intercourse that actually posted they the way

45:50

that it was to spot then was

45:52

about the power dynamics. Of the sexual

45:55

intercourse whether it's male or female, for

45:57

example, there are very different ways. Wanting

45:59

Cast Crisis. I think Famous Feminists

46:01

is written about the a how

46:03

long list of different ways you

46:05

could categorize it apart from male

46:07

female for example, but we are

46:09

murky territory but the evidence itself

46:11

is strongly suggest is also. Loves

46:14

that appears to be erotic

46:16

Love that appears. To be acted

46:18

on as as some rates I think so.

46:20

yes I think most a good way of

46:23

are driving. What happened with the word love

46:25

is important. We just have to think of

46:27

Shakespeare. We just have to think about how

46:29

the fact that. Without. Anyone batting

46:31

an eyelid, they were always males

46:33

playing see Melrose in Shakespeare's plays

46:36

on the Witches and Macbeth with

46:38

been plagued by men boys quite

46:40

often. So. That you

46:42

put it now, gender fluidity

46:44

of that period is something

46:46

that was very much embedded

46:48

in social attitudes and assumptions.

46:50

I think you have to

46:53

contextualize it with that rather

46:55

than current preoccupations with gender

46:57

and sexual politics and see

46:59

underpinning is something that I

47:01

suppose personally. I. See as.

47:03

Something. That transcends the history which

47:06

his feelings of love for one

47:08

person for another. And what I

47:10

really enjoyed when I was researching

47:13

and writing about this story. Historically.

47:16

Was James's. declarations

47:19

of love and how touching they

47:21

were. And. How vulnerable he was

47:23

he saw the he is the bone

47:25

will partner in this relationship. He.

47:28

Falls to pieces when George takes himself

47:30

off to one of the houses he

47:32

inherited. As a result of this call,

47:34

the position Jane's would fall to pieces

47:36

and implored George to come back to

47:38

him. And this is

47:40

web crucial historical politics come

47:42

into it. When George

47:45

started to peel away from

47:47

James's politics, his foreign policy

47:49

in particular when James's rollers

47:51

rex a catheter so precipitous

47:53

of the want to pronounce

47:55

it is under threat because

47:57

of what George is doing.

48:00

The. James could nevertheless not

48:02

like Gov. George entirely how

48:04

close it against George. On

48:06

the one hand, but on the other hand was

48:09

desperate to see him and be with him. So.

48:11

Those kinds of complex is where the politics in

48:13

the purple become so intertwined was one of the

48:16

things that made this for me. That's a key

48:18

story and why the book has the title. it's

48:20

goals. Why? James his

48:22

final hours were in such

48:24

interest to me, because in

48:27

a sense, what happens in

48:29

James's final hours to the

48:31

consummation of all that complexity

48:33

in terms of politics. And.

48:36

See laying in in motion, which

48:38

is what makes coldly life so

48:40

fascinating to us. Now it's the

48:42

way it intertwined, the leads things

48:44

and such an extraordinary manner. And

48:46

that's exactly what happened in the

48:49

Cold. But King James. Well we

48:51

may have to have another conversation at some

48:53

point in the future as he will to

48:55

talk about the end of James is like

48:57

but we haven't got there in the drama

48:59

yet so we should put that aside for

49:01

one. Moment But thank you so much

49:03

for talking. So maps and

49:05

so brilliantly about the reality,

49:08

historically, the drama and the

49:10

interactions between the two at

49:13

the coup says James even.

49:15

Britain. Thank you Thank you very much of

49:18

really enjoyed talking to about it. Great. To

49:29

chooses in history. And uses

49:31

to the researchers. You

49:34

could use. A Book one day and

49:36

and attacks and edited this asphalt

49:38

were always eager to hear from

49:40

you. Seduce Officer Line at Not

49:43

Just The Tudors at History hit.com

49:45

or on X formerly known as

49:47

Twitter at Not Just Chooses and

49:50

do remember to follow Not Just

49:52

The Chooses let as he get

49:54

your podcasts see that each new

49:56

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