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0:38

Three hundred and fifty years ago this

0:40

year and this month, a charter

0:42

was given by the crown

0:43

to the royal African company of England.

0:47

This did not mark the beginning of

0:48

the slave trade. In fifteen

0:51

sixty two, captain John Hawkins

0:53

became the first known Englishman

0:55

to include enslaved brickens

0:58

in his cargo. But as

1:00

today's guest writes in his book Freedom's

1:02

Debt, the Royal African company

1:04

of England shipped more enslaved

1:07

African women, men, and children

1:09

to the Americas than any other

1:11

single institution during the entire

1:13

period of the transatlantic slave trade From

1:16

its foundation in sixteen seventy

1:18

two to the early seventeen twenties,

1:20

the African company transported close

1:23

to a hundred and fifty thousand

1:26

enslaved Africans, mostly to the

1:28

British Caribbean.

1:28

in

1:30

Today's podcast blores the

1:32

story of England's involvement in and

1:34

later dominance of the transatlantic slave

1:36

trade. And my guest is William

1:38

Petter Group, professor of history at the University

1:41

of Lancaster. He's written much about

1:43

the transatlantic trade and enslaved peoples.

1:45

The East India company and the relationship

1:48

between corporations and the state in

1:50

history. Among his books is

1:52

the one I've already mentioned, Freedom's debt,

1:54

the Royal f far from company and the politics

1:56

of the Atlantic slave trade sixteen seventy

1:59

two to seventeen fifty two, published by the

2:01

University of North Carolina Press in twenty

2:03

thirteen. and Professor Petigroup

2:05

is currently leading a team to explore

2:07

the legacies of the British slave trade,

2:10

examining the structures and significance of

2:12

British investment in the Transatlantic

2:14

slave trade. So I welcome him to

2:17

talk about

2:17

the royal African company.

2:25

Well, it is a great treat

2:28

to have a chance to speak to you about this

2:30

topic you worked so much on and I've been

2:32

reading lots of your work and what

2:34

we're going to talk about is

2:35

fascinating. We

2:37

are marking

2:38

an anniversary the

2:40

anniversary of

2:41

the charter given to the Royal African

2:43

company. But

2:44

that wasn't the first entity

2:47

to operate on the west coast of

2:49

Africa? Or was it the first

2:51

two trade in enslaved Africans? Mhmm.

2:54

So perhaps you can give us a bit of the background

2:56

running up to the charter given

2:59

to

2:59

the Royal African company. Of course. Yeah.

3:01

I mean, the first point to mention is

3:03

the beginning of English involvement in

3:06

the Transatlantic trade and enslaved people,

3:08

which is well known to start in the fifteen sixties

3:10

with the Hawkins for ages Interestingly,

3:12

there's a sort of impasse for several

3:15

decades before independent merchants.

3:17

In other words, merchants not operating as

3:19

part of a company begin to develop sort

3:21

of persistent transatlantic trade in

3:23

enslaved people, largely to supply

3:26

the labor needs of Barbados. Once the

3:28

sugar revolution is taking place, you know, those once

3:30

sugar cultivation happened and has become

3:32

profitable on the island. There's quite substantial

3:35

trade in the 1640s and 50s

3:37

via these independent merchants, but it's

3:39

sixteen sixty when

3:41

a, if you like, state backed

3:44

corporate venture is established, which

3:46

is a direct sort of predecessor of the Royal

3:48

Ashburn Company. And that company is known as the company

3:50

of Royal Adventures Trading to Africa chartered

3:53

in sixteen sixty and then sort of

3:55

reinvented in sixteen sixty three

3:57

and then repurposed and refreshed in

3:59

sixteen seventy two

3:59

as the Royal African company. It's a separate

4:02

charter, but really is a continuation of those

4:04

two predecessor institutions. And

4:06

the charter gave

4:07

the Royal African company a monopoly.

4:10

What did it mean to have

4:12

a so called legal monopoly? on

4:15

the transportation of human cargo? Well,

4:17

a lot of the overseas trading companies have

4:19

the nopilies and the sort of limits

4:22

geographically of where they could trade were prescribed

4:24

in those charters. Of course, all

4:26

sorts of assumptions were made about

4:29

whether or not English provide the right to those

4:31

areas of the world. but there

4:33

they were. The monopoly is really there

4:35

as a tool to encourage investment. Why

4:37

would I risk my capital in the

4:39

venture? were it not for the understanding

4:42

that I and this organization and

4:44

nobody else is going to have access to the sort

4:46

of commercial upside. But in reality,

4:48

the monopoly was difficult to enforce

4:50

from day one. The company said

4:53

state backing, they often had the backing of the royal family,

4:55

and the monarchy, they often had the support

4:57

therefore things like the Royal Navy as it was

4:59

developing around this time. So there

5:01

were state mechanisms for ensuring

5:03

the monopoly was upheld and protected.

5:06

But because enforcement

5:08

depended upon, you know, intercepting

5:11

independent merchants thousands of miles

5:13

away from England, executing the English law

5:15

in those areas proved very difficult.

5:18

And you said it was a continuation of the company

5:20

of royal adventurers. What

5:22

were its powers and privileges? Did it have

5:24

a broader remit than that previous company?

5:27

Most important sort of constitutional

5:29

power the Royal African company

5:31

had that its predecessors did not

5:34

have and that no other trading

5:36

company, in fact, had at this point in time

5:38

was the right to erect abnormality courts.

5:40

abnormality courts were civil courts. They stood

5:43

outside the common law position. they

5:45

enabled you to intercept

5:47

merchant overseas and try

5:50

them on the spot imprison

5:52

them and seize their goods

5:55

without the use of a jury trial. So

5:57

there were quite controversial legal

5:59

entities. But this was given

6:01

to the Royal African company. It was the

6:03

most high-tech enforcement mechanism

6:06

you could imagine for upholding the monopoly of the

6:08

company. as I said, so powerful

6:10

was this entity that it created a lot of

6:12

controversy and a lot of opposition. The

6:14

East India company sought the same

6:16

powers and what given them in the sixteen

6:18

eighties. That's kind of measure of how effective

6:21

the advice settlement to power was.

6:22

That's extraordinary, isn't it? Because that's the

6:24

right of justice without trial

6:27

on top of which they can wage

6:29

war and make peace and they

6:31

have this right to enslave people

6:34

they are operating much

6:36

as East India companies, of course, practically

6:39

as the country, as a jurisdiction

6:41

in themselves. That was the understanding. Yeah. I mean, what

6:43

really concerned these companies when the operative

6:45

overseas was the right to control their own people.

6:48

Because again, if you turn up in a foreign jurisdiction,

6:51

you can't assume that you can control your

6:53

people in the way you want to in a different

6:55

constitutional environment, the Google Infra

6:57

or various different rulers of West Africa

6:59

would seek to manage your people in their

7:01

own way. So they were always designed

7:04

to be self governing. Again, how enforceable

7:06

that was varies enormously. So

7:08

think it's really important to draw a distinction between

7:11

what the company is intended to do, what they're

7:13

actually able to do on the ground. Lots of

7:15

historians have slipped into the trap.

7:18

of reading the company's intentions as

7:20

the reality of their operations overseas,

7:22

and that's clearly a mistake. Yeah. So it's

7:24

the difference between prescription and description,

7:27

but even the descriptive sources here probably

7:29

are going to be boasting of their power

7:31

and not telling the truth about ways in which

7:33

that's been subverted. Yes. Although,

7:36

if you're along the spot manager of the company in

7:38

West Africa, it's in your interest to play

7:40

up your weakness. because you might get additional

7:42

constitutional powers given to you. So it is

7:44

possible to get a real insight into the weakness

7:47

of these entities overseas. through

7:50

the alliances that the people on the ground

7:52

are forced to form and the request they

7:54

put it back to London to have their powers extended

7:56

or altered in some way. Was

7:58

it totally unregulated

7:59

by anything other than

8:01

the company directors or governors

8:04

themselves? There was state

8:06

interest. I mean, if you understand

8:09

that with the company of all adventurers, we have

8:11

the minute book of that company for the sort

8:13

of second half of its life and

8:15

the Duke of York who'd become James the second

8:17

is at pretty much every single meeting.

8:20

And, you know, he's a phenomenally powerful

8:22

person even before he becomes king. So

8:25

what I've been able to do is to track

8:27

the individuals who are members of this company

8:30

on the days when they were at these meetings. What

8:32

else were they doing? And it's fair to say they

8:34

were simultaneously establishing the Royal

8:36

Navy, simultaneously establishing the sort

8:38

of modern Whitehall bureaucracy, simultaneously

8:41

establishing the Royal Society, So

8:43

this venture is not helpful to understand

8:45

it as private. It really

8:47

is a sort of public state.

8:50

body. It's not subject to regulation.

8:52

It is the

8:54

regulation. It is state power.

8:56

So I suppose that's one reason why

8:58

talk of people like Edward

9:00

Colston and people who were involved

9:03

in the company is

9:04

quite so contentious because this isn't

9:07

just

9:07

identifying the group of private individuals

9:10

who are operating discrete from

9:12

all the other activities of the country

9:14

at the time. You're saying that this is fundamentally

9:16

the story of the

9:18

creation of Britain and

9:21

its governing institutions and

9:23

its

9:23

economic power and in every

9:25

other way, these things are interlinked.

9:26

Absolutely. And I think the Colston

9:29

example really is an attempt to

9:32

locate our historic connection

9:34

to slavery in the private sector,

9:36

where it doesn't really belong

9:38

if you understand the story of these companies.

9:41

as entities that really transgress

9:43

the distinction between private and public, state

9:46

and market. That distinction wouldn't

9:48

be upheld in the seventeenth century. and

9:50

think it's important to dissolve it in this context.

9:53

But it's not accurate to

9:55

suggest that these are private enterprises that

9:57

this is just the market operating.

9:59

This is a will fall

10:02

premeditated state

10:04

managed enterprise And just for the

10:06

sake of clarity, the investors all

10:09

knew where their money was going.

10:11

Absolutely. Certainly, the first group of

10:13

investors were quite active in the company.

10:15

And in any case, as I was saying before,

10:17

those either in the court

10:20

or in the city merchants there's

10:23

twenty years of precedent here for them to relate

10:25

to about the transatlantic slave trade. So the

10:27

plantations in Barbados and later Jamaica

10:29

will be generating huge amounts of money. So people

10:32

understood the source of those profits.

10:34

So I've always maintained

10:36

strongly that those people who signed

10:38

documents purchasing shares in these organizations

10:41

and you exactly what they were doing. And of course, over

10:43

time, the details of what happened in the plantation,

10:45

the details of what happened on the slave ships became

10:48

more and more broadly understood. What

10:50

was

10:50

the justification for this trade

10:52

and human? The

10:53

principle justification was

10:56

that labor was required to

10:58

keep the economies of the Caribbean going

11:01

and that those people inheriting

11:04

what we would now call the West Coast of Africa

11:07

were peculiarly suited for

11:09

that labor. And I described

11:11

that as the main justification but all

11:13

sorts of additional rationalizations were

11:15

generated as this became subject to political

11:17

debate. And these become quite bizarre

11:20

from a 21st century perspective, including

11:22

it became quite commonplace to

11:24

describe the slave trade in philanthropic

11:27

terms. And actually, those people who were transported

11:29

against their will to a completely

11:31

different society, denied any form

11:33

of payment, robbed of their identity and

11:36

and subject to legal murder and

11:38

rape, were actually being aided by

11:40

this process that actually Africa was understood

11:42

by these same propagandists to be such

11:44

an uncivilized place in that language.

11:47

that it was better for them to be operating on

11:49

the plantation in West Africa. So

11:51

there's all sorts of justifications developed

11:53

for the unjustifiable but the core

11:56

justification is to solve the colonies

11:58

problem of labor supply. I'm

12:00

aware that justification of

12:02

the benevolence of

12:04

enslaving others was

12:07

still being used in the nineteenth century,

12:09

in the early twentieth century, and it underpins

12:12

Cheryl Churchill's new book says, the

12:14

film gone with the wind. I mean, it's something that

12:16

has remained -- Yes. -- as this

12:18

convenient fiction this

12:20

delusion, actually, to justify what

12:22

had happened. Yes. Something

12:23

that ceded in the seventeenth

12:25

century is very, very powerful. There's an

12:27

idea. Yes. I mentioned the political

12:29

process because it's through having to

12:31

debate how this was done that

12:34

these justifications were generated. And

12:36

actually, in generating these just vacations.

12:39

My view is that actually British identity itself

12:41

was generated and therefore is a product

12:44

of the need to justify a

12:46

sort of universal access to the slave

12:48

trade. The company resisted because it had

12:50

this monopoly that you mentioned, and that was understood

12:52

to be in English. every

12:55

Englishman must have access to any

12:57

kind of trade just kind of common or refrain.

13:00

And so in building a case to have

13:02

the African companies monopoly, top of

13:04

the idea of Englishness was kind of

13:06

codified. That's

13:07

absolutely fascinating. Let's

13:09

come back to that. I just want to press a little

13:11

bit more on this point read one of your

13:13

articles that slavery thrives when

13:15

labor supplies a low desire for profits is high

13:18

and a distinct people deemed culturally

13:20

eligible for enslavement can be found. And

13:22

I thought this was very curious because

13:24

I've always understood this is from my undergraduate

13:26

day, so I may well get

13:27

wrong, but that racism really

13:30

became entrenched as a result of slavery

13:32

rather than the other way around. And so

13:34

it feels to me there's a question here

13:36

about why after fricans were

13:38

deemed to be culturally eligible

13:40

for in segment? Well, the initial marker

13:43

of cultural difference was religious. slavery

13:46

had been justifiable since the

13:48

early middle ages on the understanding that

13:51

Christians couldn't slave Muslims and vice versa.

13:53

that's kind of broaden to Christians

13:55

and slavery, other Asian nations, not

13:57

just Islamic people. So

13:59

when

13:59

you hear people talking about

14:02

this idea of cultural justification, it's

14:04

initially made with reference to their religion.

14:07

So there's this formula that operates at the beginning

14:09

of the slave trade that therefore If

14:11

you allow your slaves to be baptized,

14:14

then they should be money mitted. But of course, that

14:16

doesn't serve the broader commercial.

14:18

justification that I just mentioned about

14:20

the need to solve this in the key problem of labor

14:22

supply. So that condition of

14:25

justifying slavery, this idea of cultural difference

14:27

has to be mutated to base. I think braces

14:29

we understand it is something that, you know, we would

14:31

connect to scientific difference. And of course,

14:33

that's a post enlightenment idea. So it

14:35

doesn't really fit for the late seventeenth century.

14:38

But over the course of the eighteenth century, you

14:40

begin to see the development and

14:42

entrenchment of what we could now relate

14:44

to as racial stereotypes. Let's

14:46

also think about that politicization

14:48

of the trade

14:50

that you mentioned because another

14:52

fascinating point in your work is that

14:54

you argue that the

14:57

link between enslaved labor

14:59

and the rhetoric of freedom

15:01

is fundamental. Can you explain

15:04

that? Well, the monopoly that

15:06

the company has is sort of branded

15:08

as the company has to justify itself in public

15:11

as a kind of a badge of slavery. That's the expression.

15:13

They're not police for the badges of a

15:16

slaveish people. A slaveish people

15:18

being the English you would put up with them.

15:20

Not enslaved by them. And hopefully, of course.

15:23

And so a campaign has

15:25

started to have the company's

15:27

monopoly and the company itself destroyed.

15:30

if you're going to mount campaign in public by

15:32

the end of the seventeenth century, you're going to need a media

15:34

campaign. You're going to need a parliamentary campaign.

15:37

You're going to need a legal campaign. You're going to need

15:39

the courts. and in each of those

15:41

three settings, and they're quite well coordinated,

15:43

often using some of same personnel, the

15:46

sort of technique that campaign slogan

15:48

is we're going to free

15:50

a slave trade. We're going to develop a

15:52

deregulated slave trade to underpin

15:55

the development of our transatlantic empire.

15:57

that's absolutely explicit in all of

16:00

those three settings for the debate.

16:02

And it's – from our perspective, it's kind of

16:04

astonishing that nobody saw the irony at all

16:06

Oh,

16:07

they didn't. It's a massive case of cognitive

16:09

dissonance.

16:09

It could be, but I suspect

16:11

it wasn't. I think in order to understand,

16:14

how human beings were able

16:17

to do what they did to

16:19

other human beings in the context of slavery.

16:21

We have to appreciate that one group of human beings

16:24

didn't believe the other to be human at all.

16:26

And then actually, the way in which they

16:28

developed the notion of freedom to

16:30

enslave is really just the

16:32

same as shipping any other kind of

16:34

objects around the commercial system that the image

16:37

we're participating in. So cognitive dissonance

16:39

certainly where they second half of the eighteenth

16:41

century.

16:43

But the final years of the seventeenth

16:45

and opening years of the eighteenth, I think we're

16:47

talking here about one group people not understanding

16:49

the other to be human to.

16:59

Hi there. I'm Don Wildman, the host of

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18:29

Let's

18:30

talk a little bit about the trade

18:32

itself. As you mentioned, the

18:34

creation of

18:34

the Royal African company doesn't mark

18:37

the beginning of a trade in and safe people,

18:39

but you argue that the company elevated

18:41

the scale of the English saving

18:44

activity

18:44

to an unprecedented level. Can you give

18:46

us some sense of

18:47

that? Yes. So despite the

18:49

fact that when the company's monopoly was ended

18:51

and the trade was inverted, that

18:54

led to a three hundred percent increase in the capacity

18:56

of the trade. when was that? That happened

18:59

from about sixteen eighty nine to

19:01

seventeen twelve. But that's not

19:03

to diminish the contribution of the

19:05

African company to the English

19:07

participation in the slave trade because the

19:09

Royal African company and its predecessors shipped

19:12

somewhere in the region of one hundred and seventy

19:14

thousand human beings across

19:16

a twenty five-thirty year period.

19:19

And that is the single largest

19:21

contribution to the Transatlantic sleeve trade from

19:24

any European nation throughout the whole

19:26

period of the trade. So it's the number one

19:28

slave trading organization in that

19:30

sense. even though it's criticized and

19:32

demolished for not being able to satisfy

19:34

the demand for enslaved labor. Adam

19:36

Smith mentions these trading companies, including

19:39

the African company, as examples

19:41

of kind of bureaucratic inefficient commerce

19:44

that should never have been allowed to set up that actually

19:46

they just create vested interest that slow the

19:48

British economy down. And that's

19:50

always their story to relate to the companies

19:52

as sort of economically impaired

19:54

organizations. But in fact, they were

19:56

quite efficient and effective in doing

19:58

what they wanted to do. The one exception

20:00

to that though, and this is really important, is

20:03

the monopolies were meant to sort of gather

20:06

together commercial potency

20:09

so that when you went to a far flung core of

20:11

the world, you can impose prices on the

20:13

people you wanted to buy yogurt. And they always

20:15

argue that if the monopolies were

20:17

destroyed, then the price

20:20

of the goods that the English wanted to buy

20:22

overseas would increase. and that's exactly

20:24

what happens. It's a very unusual case

20:27

of deregulating the market, in this

20:29

case, human beings, the

20:31

price of those commodities in their

20:33

view increasing at the same time.

20:35

Now the reason for that is, if you look at

20:37

the opponents of the African company, you've

20:40

got people on mainland North

20:42

American colonies. The African company did a regional

20:44

job of supplying Barbados and Jamaica, but it completely

20:47

neglected Virginia, Maryland, the Carolinas.

20:49

So those planters want to see as monopoly

20:51

ended so that more insulated people can be transported

20:53

there. That's one group. There's another group

20:56

of provincial merchants liver unions,

20:58

Bristolians, the beneficiaries of

21:00

moving the slave trades center of

21:02

gravity from London elsewhere. But

21:05

the most important constituency, and the

21:07

one that almost never mentioned, are

21:09

the African vendors of the enslaved

21:11

people themselves. Of course, they didn't want

21:13

to have prices imposed on them. In fact, they

21:15

arranged the trade on the West Coast

21:17

of Africa in such a way

21:19

that they prevented one European

21:22

organization, a company or otherwise,

21:24

from dominating any one port. In

21:26

fact, they created free ports The

21:29

most famous of which is at Weda in modern

21:31

day Benin where the king systematically says,

21:34

all people are welcome here at the trade. And

21:36

what happens then is if you've got competition,

21:39

the price of what you're selling increases. So

21:42

this is a way of bringing the African

21:44

perspective back into our own of the

21:46

trade, but also showing how

21:49

addicted the English colonists were

21:51

to the use of slave labor, how dependent

21:54

they were because they're willing to pay

21:56

higher and higher prices as the trade developed.

21:58

Normally, a trade, as it expands and

22:01

it matures, the price is coming down. Like it

22:03

does for tea, or coffee or any of the other tropical

22:05

commodities. But at the beginning of the eighteenth century, the prices

22:07

of human beings increases as the market

22:09

expands. And the A level economics

22:12

term is that the elasticity of the

22:14

colonial demand for slave labor is

22:16

inelastic. It doesn't respond

22:18

to price. so addictive were they

22:20

that they would pay any price to have enslaved

22:22

people? You talked there about the African

22:25

perspective

22:25

course, the perspective that it's

22:27

almost impossible to regain

22:30

is the perspective

22:30

of those who were enslaved from

22:33

memory I've read that maybe we have.

22:35

a half

22:35

a dozen autobiographical accounts

22:38

of

22:38

people who were enslaved. And

22:40

I know there was lots of amazing scholarship

22:42

going on,

22:43

Steph a small word comes to mind and others

22:45

who are doing incredible

22:46

work to try and recapture that.

22:49

What can we know about for from

22:52

the huge numbers of African women and men

22:54

and children who were purchased and

22:56

branded and transported and tortured

22:59

and

22:59

killed and enslaved under the rule of

23:01

company.

23:01

More and more, there's been a tremendous

23:03

effort and a successful effort to

23:06

focus the history of the slave

23:08

trade on those human beings tragically

23:10

transported by it. We have the

23:12

slave narratives themselves. This is a kind

23:14

of separate genre of writing that comes out

23:16

of Aquinas, autobiography, These

23:19

are hugely important attempts to understand

23:21

what this experience was like. Other

23:24

endeavors in this area have really been

23:26

about document to hear these people out were?

23:28

What were their names? Where did they come from?

23:30

Rebuilding their identity, going against

23:33

the grain of a system that was meant to rob them

23:35

of that. So simply locating,

23:37

for example, Africans in Tudor England

23:39

or Africans in Stuart London. All

23:41

those who were clearly not held as slaves,

23:43

but were, you know, servants in a more

23:45

conventional English way. I think

23:48

doing this without any access

23:50

to the sort of evidence that these

23:52

individuals left behind themselves is obviously

23:54

very very difficult, but doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

23:57

So I think a lot of the insight we have

23:59

about

23:59

what the lives of these people was like

24:02

derived from those Europeans who are connected

24:04

to their enslavement who may wish to

24:07

humanize in the eyes of their readers.

24:09

individuals who were concerned in human.

24:11

And so when you begin to see the very

24:13

first glimmers of criticism

24:16

of the trade, It's often through

24:18

making it clear who these people

24:20

were, where they came from, the languages they

24:22

spoke, and the human qualities that they,

24:24

of course, had. So focusing

24:27

the story there as historians have done over

24:29

the last ten or fifteen years has been massively

24:31

important.

24:31

I imagine some of that evidence tells

24:33

us about the actual

24:34

experience of people who were enslaved.

24:37

Can we talk about what precisely happened?

24:39

Yeah. I mean, Aquionis is the most famous account

24:41

of that. and the

24:44

European materials, including the archives of the

24:46

African company, which are mostly

24:48

focused on Africa, give a lot of detail

24:50

this, how human beings were

24:52

purchased, which goods

24:55

were imported into Africa to

24:57

encourage warfare between African

24:59

states, warfare caused greater supply

25:02

because enslaved people tended to be captive

25:04

in war. So shipping things like guns

25:07

were made commercial sense.

25:08

So if you like, you can understand

25:11

a little bit about the mechanics of this

25:13

from the commercial strategies we formulated

25:15

in Britain and elsewhere in Europe and then implemented

25:18

on the West Coast of Africa. But

25:20

again, apart from the slave narratives, that doesn't

25:22

always give us a brilliant insight into how it was

25:24

to be on receiving it into these techniques

25:26

of capturing But think it's important to

25:29

stress that it wasn't really until the eighteenth

25:31

century that Europeans were capturing

25:33

Africans directly without the

25:35

mediation of the African vendors'

25:37

policies who developed

25:40

significant profits, if you like, and

25:42

wealth and power, from participating

25:44

in the trade themselves.

25:46

You mentioned that after sixteen

25:48

eighty nine, the trade increased greatly.

25:51

obviously, we know in sixteen eighty eight eighty

25:53

nine, we've got the Circle Doris Revolution taking

25:56

place, this change of monarchy. How

25:58

is this related to this

25:59

massive expansion of

26:02

the trade. Well, because of the intimate connections

26:04

between the Royal Off and Company and the Stuart

26:06

Kings, Charles and James. It's the

26:08

only trading company without royal prefix.

26:11

Those monarchs put a lot of

26:13

their power and credibility behind supporting

26:15

the company's monopoly. when James

26:17

abdicates drops his seal and

26:20

attempts and leaves over to France,

26:22

the

26:22

company is quite vulnerable at that point. It's

26:24

lost all the state backing. It's lost all of

26:26

the powerful individuals. And meanwhile,

26:28

you've got a chorus of opposition to the

26:30

trade building since the charge of

26:32

the government company had been written and signed. Quite

26:35

a few merchants have had their cargoes intercepted

26:37

in the Atlantic. They've been imprisoned by the company

26:40

in Cape Coast Castle. they'd have their

26:42

goods taken away from them, and so they wanted

26:44

the revenge. So

26:45

as soon as they could after James

26:48

departed, And

26:49

it happens within weeks, they

26:51

bring cases against the company in the Court

26:53

of King's bench, basically

26:54

saying it's a contravention of

26:57

my liberties as an English person. What

26:59

happened to me? What the African company did to me

27:01

was on English? And chief justice holds upholds

27:03

that view in the case of Nightingale versus

27:05

Bridges. says basically the crown

27:08

can charter an overseas trading company,

27:10

but it can't give that company vice

27:12

versa, enforcement powers. Those are illegal

27:14

unless those powers are established

27:16

through statute, which is what happens with

27:18

the legislation to track down the pirates very

27:21

early in the eighteenth century. So this forces the

27:23

African company to come into parliament to seek

27:25

these powers to seek a statutory basis

27:27

for its charter its enforcement power. And that's

27:29

what leads to this twenty five year public debate about

27:31

how the slave trade should be managed, which in duration

27:34

and intensity is a bit like the

27:36

protracted public debate about evolution.

27:38

During that period of time, we've got

27:40

opponents to the Royal African company. Do

27:42

we have opponents to the

27:44

slave trade itself. Very few.

27:46

As I was saying earlier, the political process

27:49

sort of forces people to see the issue

27:51

in the round. it forces them to consider

27:53

every aspect of this because MPs aren't always

27:55

merchants growing themselves. But still

27:58

they're quite small minority. So they don't look at this

28:00

issue just in commercial terms. What

28:02

about this issue of baptism? What about

28:04

ultimately the treatment of enslaved people?

28:07

But nobody at least

28:09

in this phase of public development apart

28:11

from, I think, two exceptions is

28:14

thinking that this is not a trade people

28:16

should be participating in. It's not a trade

28:18

that the parliament should be endorsing.

28:21

Never mind, the English states are supporting. So

28:24

those voices of opposition

28:26

and discontent are very, very isolated.

28:29

So let's go back to that point you mentioned earlier

28:31

then about the history of slavery being

28:33

a history of identity, this

28:35

forming of the identity of English

28:37

or Britishness. Can you explain a

28:40

bit more about that? I think if

28:42

I can connect it back to that notion

28:44

of which constituency is most

28:46

powerful in rejecting the African

28:49

companies monopoly. To my mind, of course,

28:51

it's those constituencies on the West Coast

28:53

of Africa who don't want to have

28:55

the prices imposed upon them. The African

28:57

company, it's very clear having gone through

28:59

the story of how the African company tries

29:01

to impose itself and entrench

29:04

itself in the West African realm, is

29:06

very, very weak, is very limited

29:08

in its ability to enforce his wishes and its

29:11

commercial strategy there. So

29:13

when the African company is

29:15

subject to this public debate. If

29:18

you like the commercial reality has already been

29:20

set, the the monopoly is unenforceable. Even

29:24

if the English had been able

29:26

to buttress the African

29:28

companies monopoly through a statue, and

29:31

establish its legality unequivocally,

29:34

it wouldn't have been able to enforce that monopoly

29:36

in West Africa. So this

29:38

whole notion of sort

29:40

of larding the opposition to

29:43

the African companies monopoly with

29:45

a sort of jingoistic fetishizing

29:48

of English liberty is really

29:50

a rationalization of

29:52

African power over

29:54

English aspiration. that somehow

29:57

making it more nationalist is compensating

30:00

for the fact that in reality, the English

30:02

company had very little power and

30:04

English had very little power over the slave

30:06

trade in this very early stage. One of ingredients

30:09

of the English identity that are formed

30:11

in this way, well, there's all sorts not just the

30:13

constitutional argument that, you know,

30:16

the English subject should have the liberty

30:18

to participate in trade. That's a kind of classic

30:20

common law argument from earlier in the seventeenth

30:22

century. grafted onto this pro

30:25

slave trade lobby. You also

30:27

have the very beginnings of

30:30

a sort of mandevillian argument

30:33

in favor of free trade. So the companies

30:35

existed to prevent individuals from

30:38

managing trade. Why couldn't you let an

30:40

individual participate trade on

30:42

his own overseas? Because individuals were

30:44

naturally prone to

30:45

committing fraud

30:47

and would be greedy. They needed to be structured

30:49

into organizations that could conduct

30:52

trade in a way that was good for society

30:54

as a whole was virtuous. The great intellectual

30:57

conflict of the eighteenth century has ultimately

30:59

voiced by Adam Smith is to say no. If

31:01

you give individuals free reign to pursue

31:03

their own acquisitive instincts, then

31:06

the economy as a whole will grow and society as

31:08

a whole benefit. If you look carefully

31:11

in the debates in favor of deregulating

31:13

the slave trade, and it's the very first overseas

31:15

trade to be deregulated in this way. You

31:18

can see that the smithyan argument in

31:20

favor of giving individuals what

31:22

it's called in one of the pamphlets, freeing

31:24

their animal instincts to acquire

31:26

things to participate in trade as

31:29

a way to expanding the scale of the English

31:31

economy creating a bigger tax

31:33

base to fight more against the French.

31:35

These arguments are made for the first time

31:37

in the context of the slave trade. So

31:40

economic liberty and constitutional liberty

31:42

of a particularly British

31:44

kind of both either accelerated

31:47

and expanded in this context or created

31:49

in this context. If you think about definitions

31:52

of britishness that operate right

31:54

through the nineteenth century, those are two things actually

31:56

central to it.

31:57

great contract of Adam Smith

31:59

and Economic

31:59

Liberty feels particularly relevant

32:03

in the days in which we're living. how

32:05

do you think we should tell

32:08

the story, the history of

32:11

the trade and state people today?

32:13

How has it you've touched on, but

32:15

how should it now play

32:17

a part in modern identity?

32:19

I think that it's absolutely essential

32:22

that we understand the extent

32:25

to which the systematic

32:28

violence and torture, murder of

32:30

a group of people over hundreds

32:32

of years, and that group of people being in

32:34

a millions large what

32:37

role that played in the development of

32:39

Britain, not just there's been a fixation

32:41

on economically understand that. It

32:43

plays a very important part in developing the

32:45

British economy. But also the

32:47

part it plays in the development of the British

32:49

ideas of British identity, the

32:52

development of British institutions, the

32:54

development of the British state, and

32:56

the development of the British nation.

32:59

because the slave trade is quite an unusual

33:01

example of capital

33:03

flight from London to the rest

33:05

of the country. forgive me, but it's sort of a good example

33:07

of leveling up to the provinces. The

33:10

company had fixated and fixed

33:12

commercial opportunity on London what

33:14

the opponents of the company wanted to do is to

33:16

make sure that benefits of slavery was thrown

33:19

around the country. So you look at the great cities

33:21

of the west of this country, Bristol, in particular,

33:23

Liverpool, these cities would not be

33:25

as cities they are today. At all,

33:27

Lancaster is the same without this history.

33:30

So we've got to understand beyond

33:33

the commercial dynamics, the

33:35

significance of this. And I think the

33:37

process of debating that openly

33:39

in all its detail and subtlety,

33:42

I suppose, a crucial British value in

33:44

itself. I would like to see,

33:46

you know, a fallen frank constructive conversation

33:49

about that. That's the way think that this

33:51

story is going. And I think over the past

33:53

couple of years, that's hugely expanded in

33:55

ways just massively important and

33:58

valuable. How are you continuing to work

34:00

on this today? So I lead

34:02

a group of scholars working on writing

34:04

biographies, mini biographies of

34:06

all of the investors in the transatlantic

34:08

slave trade. So we define investors

34:11

as those financially connected to this directly.

34:13

So that includes the slave traders people investing

34:16

in individual voyages, but also all

34:18

the investors in the slave trading companies that

34:20

we've been talking largely about today. fifteen

34:22

thousand of them, and we will

34:24

launch the data think towards the end

34:26

of twenty twenty four. And

34:28

the website will have a page per individual,

34:31

but it'll also enable to connect

34:33

individuals to one another. It'll show the networks

34:35

between them. It'll map the data. It'll

34:38

also enable you to search

34:40

through the data according to the institutions

34:42

these people were connected to, some of which are

34:44

still going, some of which are not. So

34:46

it's relational database hope

34:49

people do a good job of showing a

34:51

commercial significance of these individuals

34:53

connections to this trade, but also the political

34:55

networks these people use to sustain the trade

34:58

and the cultural products that

35:00

many of them generated as a result

35:02

of the wealth accumulated from this or other aspects

35:04

of their commercial growth. I imagine that's going

35:06

to be something of a bomb. Right. When

35:10

it's when you start the operation. Yeah.

35:12

I hope so. And, you know, I think

35:14

that having participated in

35:16

the debate a little bit myself over the last couple of

35:18

years, think it benefits from the underpinning

35:21

of high quality information, and that's what we're trying

35:23

to do. Got to tell the truth. Well,

35:25

hopefully, this conversation is a

35:27

small part of that. So thank

35:28

you so much for making the time to talk

35:30

to me. I recommend people you book

35:32

Freedom's debt. if they want to know

35:34

more about this whole process and

35:37

we should watch this space in terms of thinking

35:39

about how the conversation develops.

35:41

Thank you very much for inviting me, Susie.

35:43

And it's a really great opportunity

35:45

for me to put some these ideas to a

35:47

different audience. So thank you

35:48

very much.

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