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subscribing to history hit. Head.

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Over to History

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hit.com/subscribe. Most.

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Of us will have several surgical

0:22

procedures in the course of our

0:24

lives. From dentistry and cosmetic treatments

0:26

to assisted child birth and organ

0:29

transplants, surgery is one of the

0:31

most important sectors in the medical

0:33

field. Most was also know something

0:35

about the innovations and discoveries of

0:38

the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the

0:40

discovery of germs and the understanding

0:42

of post surgical infection and not

0:44

forgetting of course introduction of general

0:47

anesthetic. But. What are

0:49

the centuries before these developments in

0:51

England? What was surgery like for

0:54

the women and men of the

0:56

sixteenth and seventeenth centuries? How surgeons

0:58

trained and what ailments did they

1:00

treat? How would they regarded what

1:03

tools to they use? The treatment

1:05

vary depending on your station, society,

1:07

and means and what was that

1:10

rate of survival? With.

1:12

Me today is Mister

1:14

Michael Crumpling historian, author and

1:17

retired surgeon. Mister Crumbling

1:19

has written extensively on the history

1:21

of medicine and surgery during conflict,

1:23

as well as acting as a

1:25

historical advisor for film. Mister

1:33

Crumbling Welcome to not just the Tudors

1:35

like you. Now we're going to be

1:37

talking about surgery in the sixteenth and

1:39

seventeenth centuries in thereafter. So I suppose

1:41

the first thing to ask is what

1:43

we mean when we use the word

1:45

surgery in terms this period will sort

1:47

of procedures were being done and how

1:49

was a surgeon different to a physician?

1:52

A surgeon is somebody who works with

1:54

his hands. It's a craft in the

1:56

world is derived from carona goes to

1:59

Greek words. Which means work of the

2:01

hand. Therefore, In

2:03

olden times in general surgeons

2:06

were really designated trade working

2:08

across twelve physicians who are

2:11

very well educated men often

2:13

at Oxbridge cause the were

2:16

very few. Universe is in

2:18

these times who noticed three

2:20

English and three Scottish? So

2:23

physicians were honorable, well paid,

2:25

respected and really were there

2:28

is limited in their knowledge.

2:30

No solid T classification of

2:32

disease. And capabilities as they

2:35

had drugs and diagnostic ability

2:37

is that's about all but

2:39

very much considered superior to

2:41

the surgeon. Said. Will be

2:43

fair to say than that surgery was

2:45

something that was more available to people

2:48

of different social ranks and a citizen.

2:50

Yes, I think so. But then

2:52

of course surgeons who became predominant

2:54

challenge. Lot of money and indeed

2:56

well respected so and often called

2:58

more patients because they charge of

3:00

lot more money. These with the

3:02

very top rank of the master

3:04

surgeons positions were with very well

3:06

off and I suppose there was

3:08

some antithesis about this. I know

3:10

that in the fifteenth century there

3:12

was an effort preceding the barber

3:14

surgeons to unite the physicians and

3:16

surgeons and that lasted just for

3:18

one year didn't work. And

3:21

never got on position would not

3:23

does his hands and cause bleeding

3:25

and mess. And a surgeon.

3:28

Surprisingly many of them knew quite

3:30

a bit about material medical. So

3:32

to clean the armed services the

3:34

surgeons did pretty much all the

3:37

worst. Physicians were a rarity and

3:39

props some use and public health

3:41

dos and disease outbreaks. You

3:43

mentioned the ball, the surgeons and which

3:46

is the killer that stab list. To.

3:48

Organize the profession, the company

3:50

about the surgeon subsisting forty.

3:52

What? Was a ball that

3:54

sets in. And why did the

3:57

sealed says surgery and grueling overlap?

4:00

Well, it's a strange one really,

4:02

cause you would have thought that

4:04

be quite distinct but Company of

4:06

Barbers and the Guild of Surgeons

4:08

as it became from the Fellowship

4:11

of Surgeons as you say, became

4:13

united in the mid sixteenth century

4:15

by Hundred Assists charter and that

4:17

continued. I think there was certainly

4:19

a delineation. Of which sort

4:22

of work was done by whom

4:24

and I think the were as

4:26

things involved in the barber surgeons

4:28

companies. Any barber who and transgress

4:31

beyond bleeding dancing to pulling cutting

4:33

hair at the very outset would

4:35

be castigated and likewise a surgeon

4:38

in that company ababa surgeon wouldn't

4:40

take as they groom federal miss

4:42

post that might occasionally might have

4:44

to in surgical procedure but they

4:47

were distinct. The was an effort

4:49

to keep it distinct. I'm

4:51

sure the web transgressions in each

4:53

way with but at least by

4:55

by the Barber Surgeons Foundation of

4:57

those regulations and ruling in and.

5:00

Said. What kind of training then could

5:02

we expect a surgeon to. Have

5:04

said. Well. Long before universities

5:07

that would take surgeons on medical

5:09

schools, surgeons came really from the

5:11

middling sort. On the whole, that

5:13

doesn't mean that poor people didn't

5:15

become surgeons cause somebody picked them

5:17

up and threw them into the

5:19

pot because they had some sort

5:22

of skill, but the training was

5:24

largely an indentured apprenticeship to amass

5:26

to search and preferably or an

5:28

ordinary surge in the ones a

5:30

huge number in London and the

5:32

were some then after scattered to

5:35

the country. And the

5:37

licensing procedure I presume was mostly

5:39

through the barber surgeons but I

5:41

see let the would be people

5:43

coming down from Scotland also on

5:45

people props practicing when they had

5:48

abilities. They had training from a

5:50

surgeon in the provinces but without

5:52

necessary say getting a license. but

5:54

the was a licensing procedure and

5:56

that's one of the most important

5:58

developments I think. In this

6:00

period and up quickly as this

6:03

could somebody. Boy, so that

6:05

status does it sort of take the normal

6:07

amount of time and of apprenticeship. And a

6:09

journeyman? I guess maybe seven years or something.

6:11

Or is it quicker than that? Have any

6:13

idea. Well. I think probably

6:15

a mean later on it was fairly

6:18

designated as five years, but I think

6:20

here you'd see something between three and

6:22

five years and he would probably be

6:25

according to the apprentices abilities and speed

6:27

of learning. I mean, that's one of

6:29

the things with modern surgery. the because

6:32

of the European Working Time Directive that

6:34

cut the Us right down. some people

6:36

take longer to train and others are

6:39

obvious. Think between three and five years

6:41

and they would obviously attend, they would

6:43

have to attend. The Saxons demonstrations

6:45

and lectures at the barber Surgeons

6:48

whole to do it properly. Anything.

6:50

Like that This info So much skill

6:53

with your hands is about time on

6:55

task isn't This is about practice and

6:57

doing than maneuver again and again and

7:00

again until you've got the delicacy. To.

7:02

Do it properly. Yeah, and although

7:04

surgery was extremely crude at this

7:06

time and essentially very speedy for

7:08

obvious reasons to reduce the amount

7:10

of pain and blood loss in

7:12

or estimates you're quite right the

7:15

best way to learn surgery with

7:17

do amount of basic learning and

7:19

reading was to operate under to

7:21

listen Mentorship that still applies to

7:23

Dice and in the armed services.

7:25

The field of battle was the

7:27

school of said absolutely it's and

7:29

good guys really moved on pretty

7:32

quickly. As I showed some adept

7:34

digital techniques. You. Mentioned the

7:36

Saxons they're how much sisters learning

7:38

would have been patched school in

7:40

Kansas cadavers as I understand that

7:42

they're starting to be used in

7:44

mid century Europe, but it enough

7:46

that his the case in England

7:48

at this time. No, a

7:51

course. That's the trouble with all

7:53

these subjects. They're worldwide the European

7:55

wide and they will differ a

7:57

bit certain in Edinburgh, the in

7:59

corporations. Surgeons were allowed in the

8:01

sixties early sixteenth century once executed

8:03

criminals could dabble around, not went

8:05

up to two. but when Henry

8:07

gave the charter to the Barber

8:09

Surgeons in London, they were allowed

8:11

for cadavers per annum and it

8:13

was a bit of a business

8:15

to try and get hold of

8:17

the is the beetle would have

8:19

to go out with assistance to

8:21

stop other people. Getting. The corpses

8:24

of the family trying to possess

8:26

it. It was a pretty awful

8:28

and horrid business, but those full

8:30

cadavers were very process and nowhere

8:32

near what they would have needed

8:34

to train. the surgeons say became

8:36

compulsory to attend to sections and

8:38

I'm in classically. The reader is

8:40

the guy who gives instructions to

8:42

the person who's doing that a

8:44

section in front of him. There

8:46

is nothing more important to a

8:48

surgeon and a son. Knowledge of

8:50

a Nasa mates because I suppose

8:52

really the sixteenth. Century was the

8:55

time when they are now

8:57

don't produce his hundred, the

8:59

Saxons and data Also Andreas

9:01

the say this is great

9:03

publication day humanists cool poorest

9:06

fabric Us, although must have

9:08

been very expensive, was able

9:10

to be engraved after the

9:12

Gothenburg sprinting revolution and so

9:15

those books became available in

9:17

libraries and of places like

9:19

The Bother Surgeons whole are

9:21

not sure how. Many people have

9:24

lowly status would be able to afford

9:26

to buy them, say you had pictures

9:28

and you had attendance at the Saxons.

9:30

and you will find if you didn't

9:32

attend them and the bodies of course

9:34

wouldn't last terribly long was no method

9:37

of preserving them rarely so most the

9:39

Saxons were held in the spring, winter

9:41

or autumn times. Yes on can

9:43

imagine that someone might not have been such a pleasant time

9:45

to do it. You mentioned earlier

9:47

the speed at which these needed to

9:49

take place and of course this is

9:52

all before the invention of anesthesia it

9:54

did This us will have a and

9:56

understanding about the need to inhibit sensation

9:58

and did they have any. That to

10:00

do. So they did the was

10:02

derivatives of opium oversee laudanum being

10:04

one of the best. no no

10:07

tincture of opium told them I

10:09

think was just alcohol mixed with

10:11

the opium and then you had

10:14

things like henbane and mandrake which

10:16

were either hallucinogenic or soporific. Not

10:18

really quite sure how effective they

10:21

will be as analgesics. Alcohol certainly

10:23

isn't ness show nearly comatose with

10:25

it and of course being comatose

10:28

means you could form a tool

10:30

be. Uncooperative or bleed more so.

10:32

state was erected, business, and one

10:34

has to really understand the philosophy

10:36

of pain and suffering in these

10:38

days. I'm in Saudi and these

10:41

days a woman would lose half

10:43

her children. With. Disease or accident

10:45

or whatever and man would go through

10:47

pain without any relief and is sort

10:49

of meet him type of analgesic. I'm

10:52

probably not guess any opium. So they

10:54

were very endured a plane. I wouldn't

10:56

say that there were braver than us,

10:59

they just didn't expect isn't it wasn't

11:01

there so. You. Do read

11:03

when you have operations like cussing

11:06

for the stone or amputation of

11:08

the absolute agony. There are a

11:10

few eighteenth nineteenth century a glance

11:12

by patients and they're pretty awful,

11:15

but they would just have to

11:17

deal with it. And in some

11:19

operations people had to be restrained

11:22

very seriously indeed, for obvious reasons.

11:24

He is. It. Says his skull. I

11:26

met him to get documentary evidence about

11:28

this because pain is set to difficult

11:31

thing to describe off the event say

11:33

anyone who has survived one of these.

11:35

Surgeries. And say it was

11:37

agony or was painful but then we can't talk

11:40

about isn't any meaningful way, can wait. No,

11:42

not really. it's some thoughts, Know

11:44

that memory? it's generally seems to.

11:46

I've had a lot of major

11:48

surgery, and I don't remember the

11:50

pain at all, and I think

11:52

there's a sort of suppressing voluntarily

11:54

or involuntarily of it, and is

11:56

the same when talking to patients

11:58

and think childbirth to. Mother is

12:00

soon very happy about having a child

12:03

and the pain is forgotten. Good as

12:05

me. She may have another one and

12:07

a year's time. Remarkable. This app certainly

12:09

seems like a survival mechanism for the

12:12

human race. Of course, at any time

12:14

someone went into surgery the were risks

12:16

how dangerous was as am I Guess

12:18

it depends on the procedure, but can

12:20

you give us some sort of census?

12:23

The cost benefit analysis of surgery. At

12:25

this time. A. Lot circumstances would

12:27

you submit to it And that was

12:29

it Took was welcomes. What I

12:31

think that it's a very important

12:33

question that certainly the people who

12:36

accepted surgery in there were many

12:38

who didn't Even into the nineteenth

12:40

century patience with soldiers, sailors and

12:42

civilians would refuse and operations die

12:44

or north of other state up

12:46

and with the decision. But if

12:49

you imagine somebody like Samuel Peeps

12:51

which is within our period who

12:53

had a very painful blood of

12:55

stone, life wasn't worth living so

12:57

you'd undergo water than are obsolete.

12:59

agony. You might st syncopate or

13:01

fainting was quite common in those days,

13:04

but then to get rid of that

13:06

stone, even with the complications off to

13:08

stone removal was probably worth it to

13:11

me and said he was and beeps

13:13

his case. So. The

13:16

cost benefit is very sad. Comments: I

13:18

mean sometimes when you have no symptoms

13:20

but say you have a sort of

13:22

tuberculosis need and it's not particularly painful

13:24

to have an above me amputation had

13:26

to be explained by the certain that

13:28

if you don't have this done you

13:30

know you're going to die and this

13:32

is going to spread of you about

13:35

a walk or whatever. So young and

13:37

important question. I'm

13:49

Eleanor yeah nigga and I'm thrilled to be

13:52

doing that! Louis Co. present Comedy Evil from

13:54

History twice a week. Every week we set

13:56

out to answer the big question that a

13:59

vexed people for. Three Like

14:01

what did the Romans ever

14:03

do for us? Rose buildings,

14:05

walls, churches, houses, manuscripts. Why

14:07

did Edward first more his

14:09

Queen Eleanor so much? So

14:11

is very good at making a show for

14:13

people to see that was going to influence

14:15

how they would understand him or his campaign's

14:18

or anything like that. Did. Fighting Hero

14:20

Ragnar Northbrook really exist.

14:22

Maybe yes maybe no the sons

14:24

who are attributed to him was

14:27

definitely feel. People to join me

14:29

Eleanor, Yanagawa and they might louis

14:31

for gone medieval from history hit

14:33

listen and fall on apple modify

14:35

or wherever you get your father.

14:55

You. Mentioned earlier that in

14:57

this period of sustained warfare

14:59

that the extreme conditions are

15:02

sealed, surgery work was an

15:04

important. Testing ground. or perhaps

15:06

a month cool it. Research. And

15:08

development and what methods and techniques came

15:11

out. His those conditions well the

15:13

grass on important developments that

15:15

I can just adjust the

15:17

question cited. It's the organization.

15:20

In the New Model Army,

15:22

and then by the Standing

15:24

Army after Restoration Actually showed

15:27

a considerable improvement by appointing

15:29

regimental certain staff, surgeons, and

15:31

field hospitals. So. That

15:34

would automatically slightly increase the

15:36

chance of survival in itself.

15:39

You'd have a chief surgeon, the post

15:41

graham physician with the army and eventually

15:43

you'd have Kill Mine On and Chelsea

15:45

Hospitals for those that had survived crippling

15:47

injury or surgery. The

15:49

techniques that gradually developed in the

15:52

army and Navy One of them

15:54

was trepanation or drilling a hole

15:56

in the skull either to get

15:58

access to Elevate. Driven down

16:00

driven bits of bone or release

16:03

paravant material blood. the continentals in

16:05

early English surgeons use a thing

16:07

called embraced her pants and I'm

16:09

show and a carpenter listening will

16:11

understand what a brace bit it

16:13

is that those attack cool woodall

16:15

who actually invented a fine which

16:17

is really a t shaped instruments

16:19

which you held in one hand

16:21

on the but the time away

16:24

from your hand there's a circular

16:26

saw what you twisted rod to

16:28

make a little groove in the

16:30

scouts eventual he cause he writes

16:32

in both tables of the bone

16:34

having divided the skin to get

16:36

access to the bones and then

16:38

you've got some access into the

16:40

skulls and I views these instruments

16:42

both types and animals and experiments

16:44

and there's no.that to find was

16:47

very good instrument the other thing

16:49

is to in a case to

16:51

any case were introduced in the

16:53

sixteenth century and then the wind

16:55

last two an ak came in

16:57

first and then attack could put

16:59

see and about seventeen sixteen brought

17:01

in so it's just after a

17:03

period a thing cool the screw

17:05

to indicate which was a strap

17:08

canvas strap and as you tightened

17:10

a brass screws the strap titans

17:12

and on the battlefield or at

17:14

surgeries this would control and eat

17:16

grass of blood from the live

17:18

at the center to nor on

17:20

the battlefield. So tony

17:22

case on the for fine and

17:24

then probably the were at some

17:27

instruments, not so much in Woolwich.

17:29

Improved access for removing bladder stones.

17:32

If. You go through this period and

17:34

look at instruments, you see how crude

17:37

they are. They often have very decorative

17:39

handles made of semi precious stones or

17:41

decorated would all metal and this is

17:44

long before sterilization are made of. Food.

17:46

Steel. They didn't change all that

17:48

much, but if you compare the

17:50

beginning of our period with the

17:53

end, the instruments were becoming more

17:55

practical, more refined and less deficit

17:57

is. It is it fair to say that

17:59

the development. Third school in tools over

18:01

that period of time and indeed as restrictions,

18:03

the Eighteenth century and so on came about

18:05

through a process of trial and error. Yes

18:08

somebody would say well on on

18:11

comfortable with this thing or blunts

18:13

too quickly and that's improved zones.

18:15

It's insane to watch Oh techniques

18:17

compare with modern for instance seats

18:19

amputation Eyes initially would curb because

18:21

the technique was to do a

18:24

beef steak guillotine amputation which was

18:26

very difficult to close over the

18:28

bone and as you can imagine

18:30

cause the was no excess of

18:32

soft tissue to bring over the

18:34

bone and but gradually slaps would

18:36

develop bar chart cause young. In

18:39

the i'm seventeenth century and spot

18:41

he did was to change the

18:43

shape of the nice them cause

18:45

to straight and he would pass

18:47

it straight through the them above

18:49

and below the bones sequences and

18:51

cause obliquely outputs. Nothing can imagine

18:53

that it would produce a flop

18:56

and then you divided the bone

18:58

after holding the sucks away it's

19:00

and the to flux would come

19:02

together and produce and nicer vascularized

19:04

bit of soft tissue out to

19:06

the bone end and thus innovation.

19:08

And. Then in my day we didn't

19:11

have long amputation eyes, we used

19:13

a scalpel and then that's been

19:15

superseded by the cussing dancer mates.

19:17

And then the bonus divided now

19:19

by an oscillating electric soul. But

19:21

of course the old days straight

19:24

teen on soul and that is

19:26

needed. a special technique to divide

19:28

bone without upsetting the patient too

19:30

much so you can see the

19:32

evolution of surgery through it's instruments

19:35

and the techniques change was. Interesting

19:37

about that his of see we've got

19:39

a clear differences between sexes saw and

19:41

a straight saw but all the any

19:43

is what we might think. Well this

19:46

is kind of a recently primitive to

19:48

from this period still in use today

19:50

but in a modernized version. For.

19:52

Depends what you mean. My modern day

19:54

my day a twenty five years expect

19:57

of. we still have had a hand

19:59

held tendencies. Which was fine. We

20:01

didn't use oscillating sores, which is okay.

20:03

I mean it's probably just as quick

20:05

to go through with a handsaw, but

20:07

the patient nowadays is asleep. Say he

20:10

doesn't mind what we do in the

20:12

way of how we divide the buffet.

20:14

the scalpels or best years which is

20:16

a long that type of scalpel blade

20:18

are still in use yes of course,

20:21

but they're disposable now. They were resort

20:23

and by the surgical orderly in the

20:25

old days will a servant or below

20:27

of whoever and he had to homemade

20:29

knives. And I have one set

20:32

from the eighteen hundreds and they'll

20:34

raise shop A beautiful steel. That's

20:36

another thing that the development of

20:39

maternity went on through this period

20:41

that were talking about. Does carbon.

20:43

Isaac iron is a very old

20:46

technique and stainless steel didn't come

20:48

until about nineteen. Eighteen. Nineteen sixteen.

20:51

Something like that. So. We've

20:53

been talking to say about the sixteenth

20:55

and seventeenth centuries, but let's sort of

20:57

look on a little bit further because

20:59

do we find the says call methods

21:01

that this time paving the way for

21:03

what is developing in the following census.

21:05

That's where I look at it. I look

21:07

at it as stepping stones if we just

21:09

sort of sync of what was done in

21:12

this period. I mean, you've got anatomy being.

21:14

Printed. Learned taught unregulated. know

21:16

months you've got anonymous. The wasn't

21:19

much pathology in those days because

21:21

disease process as well understood but

21:23

the microscope had been invented harvey

21:26

him. sixteen hundred said describes his

21:28

circulation of the blood and Malpighi

21:30

from Italy described the couple or

21:33

is so gradually we will beginning

21:35

to understand how the body worked

21:37

as an element of physiology. There

21:40

were split net to miss performed

21:42

on dogs and humans and they

21:44

survived. Without a spleen although they

21:46

didn't know what the spleen did say

21:49

Anatomy and you got physiology. But.

21:51

Obviously in the next century that

21:53

half two hours in the eighteenth

21:56

century it's we have the really

21:58

scientific thinking men like John. William

22:00

Hunter and Day sort know the

22:02

French surgeons and they were just

22:05

taking experimentation on an awesome even

22:07

further but rarely until Eighteen Forty

22:10

Six and Eighteen Sixty Five which

22:12

respectively whether discovery and use of

22:14

Isa and then antiseptic surgery by

22:17

Mr Those so far you could

22:19

go once that happens and the

22:22

germ theory comes I to then

22:24

got the causation of disease you

22:26

can classify you can treated, you

22:29

can. Start finding an

22:31

area with antibiotics, substances,

22:33

or antibacterial substances and

22:35

so forth. So until

22:37

those two factors came

22:39

about, surgery remained pretty

22:41

basic, very painful. Had

22:43

to be speed eighth was often

22:46

complicated but was often survived on.

22:48

The new to look at baron

22:50

law right and the eighteen twelve

22:52

French venture into Russia is total

22:54

amputation. Mortality without any of these

22:56

facilities in often in very primitive

22:58

conditions was twenty percent. That means

23:01

ice out of ten men are

23:03

surviving as a. Pretty impressive, right? given

23:05

everything is just said. My juices

23:07

area and section that this time

23:09

carried mortality of about ninety percent.

23:11

so the worst things at weren't

23:14

said yes. I have. To say

23:16

one of the questions that often asked

23:18

of me as a historian as which

23:20

time I would like to listen and

23:22

seeing as neither my toddler I would

23:24

have survived his birth in previous centuries

23:26

it i was a now actually is

23:28

what I'd. Like to live. Thank you

23:31

Find Despite all the problems were going

23:33

through at the moment, it's to says

23:35

a system that needs rejigging. It's a

23:37

very good system and what impresses me

23:40

as a retired surgeons is what I

23:42

hear about and seats and sometimes experience

23:44

by the people who do the job

23:47

now. So good summer I mean you've

23:49

now got robotic surgeons who are doing

23:51

nothing but robotic total prostatectomy. This and

23:54

the results of super what does that

23:56

mean? The Da Vinci robot is a

23:58

very simplistic it'd machine. It's operated at

24:00

a distance by the surge of you

24:03

gain entrance into the abdominal cavity. it's

24:05

you distended with gas and you go

24:07

to view better than us Open surgery

24:10

and you got signed instruments and you

24:12

can see planes and hi use of

24:14

the sect watts well as or nerves.

24:17

you shouldn't divide blood vessels you've gotta

24:19

be careful of So the people in

24:21

the equipment the we have are phenomenal

24:23

but we're North Wales for and since

24:26

haven't got a robotic machines they must

24:28

have dozens in London. so. It's a

24:30

very sexy business, but the people are

24:33

working in the service as in these

24:35

days there was some remarkably able people

24:37

on the Ambrose Para never fails to

24:39

amaze me. He was an amazing. Just

24:42

telephone service about Paris. Well.

24:45

Paid train Domini came from quite good

24:47

family and trained in the hotel

24:49

geo than he joined. The

24:52

Army. In one of his

24:54

answers to the Siege of Turin

24:56

I think is Fifteen Thirty seven.

24:58

The standard technique to cause wounds

25:00

to heal reverse the poisonous effect

25:02

of gunpowder was didn't exist and

25:04

her to stop bleeding was to

25:06

pour hot oil allow that into

25:08

a wound. Boiling oil and it

25:11

was the most cruel and dreadful

25:13

treatment but it was believed in

25:15

South. He. Ran out

25:17

of oil or turin and he

25:19

just stressed the wounds with a

25:21

thing turpentine, rose water and egg

25:24

yolks. And next day

25:26

he finds his patients com and

25:28

wounds were fine. They won't inflamed

25:30

as much but you see, how

25:32

would he get that message to

25:35

everybody? I. Mean wiseman in the

25:37

seventeenth century, another great surgeons hated

25:39

course rate with the same vehemence,

25:41

but not everybody. The information that

25:43

was emanating from these great thinkers

25:45

and people, trial and error or

25:47

whatever just wasn't getting out there

25:50

because the weren't any journals. his

25:52

coterie of people rounds it would

25:54

know about it. But. You

25:56

know when obe journals till and so

25:58

nineteen hundreds in this country. In surgery.

26:01

So sad. But the worst? Some great

26:03

advances in a. Godly. Moral

26:05

question for you One is that perhaps

26:07

obvious, but I want to ask? Is

26:09

all the same. We've been talking about

26:12

men so far. a we know of

26:14

any female surgeons in this. Period of

26:16

time as far as I

26:18

know. nasim emanating from the

26:20

Uk to.to Bury which was

26:23

in the nineteenth century what's

26:25

women did in villages. midwives,

26:27

even bone sensors and herbalists

26:29

were an important contribution to

26:31

health care. But. As qualified

26:34

barber surgeons or doctors not to

26:36

my knowledge in other countries I

26:38

mean in the Far East Middle

26:40

East. I think the were female

26:42

actual surgeons as well as a

26:44

doctor's here a map but not

26:46

in this country. To. My knowledge?

26:49

No. And. Is insisting you mentioning

26:51

mid West Africa's One of the things

26:53

I wondered about is how was says

26:56

he received by people as it develops

26:58

as on what people are suspicious was

27:00

the result of basso for it to

27:03

be accepted was seen as something not

27:05

so ordinary people with any the privileged.

27:07

It's difficult to know it's only

27:09

by reading diaries of prominent surgeons,

27:11

hunters and sing because although later

27:13

than all period I'm so he

27:16

reflects what would have happened to

27:18

have many of the most Ababa

27:20

surgeons the that surgeon or a

27:22

doctor from the province would send

27:24

in a case. But what is

27:26

striking is any case is referred

27:28

to top Men were very advanced

27:30

indeed. So. The cancers who

27:32

had valance infection was advanced the

27:34

concern is normally was ensues. And

27:37

because we're dealing now in a

27:39

society whose for the ordinary people

27:41

lifespan is about thirty five to

27:44

forty two the aristocrats it might

27:46

have crept up to sixty in

27:48

advanced disease and made the treatment

27:51

know easier. And people would

27:53

try and avoid surgery. I think it was

27:55

not a happy place to be. And as

27:57

as you said earlier, the symptoms were desperate.

28:00

One. Final thought. Then I'm

28:02

struck by the fact that

28:05

surgeons across time have not

28:07

only been taunted craftsman, but

28:09

have had to be unsentimental,

28:12

sanguine, decisive, and I wonder

28:14

if as a retired surgeon

28:16

yourself, you feel some kindred

28:19

spirits with the surgeons of

28:21

the Post. Has. Been quite

28:23

a bit of study own emotions

28:25

and surgery recently, which is quite

28:27

a conflict psychological analysis. I mean,

28:29

it's easier to related to personal

28:32

experience. I think there's a great

28:34

empathy with people, but there's a

28:36

terrific balance. On one hand, you've

28:38

got a surgeon who is non

28:40

empathetic, non sympathetic, and is just

28:42

a technician. I'm of the

28:44

opinion not be quite happy to go

28:46

to than either. Rudy Seven Miles pretty

28:48

certain said those little is nice shot

28:50

but he had no relationship so sleep

28:52

with a patient with a lot of

28:54

chatter sitting on the bed and holding

28:56

hands and so on. And I do

28:58

know of a surgeon who used to

29:00

pray with a since before surgery. That's

29:02

very unusual but the thing is is

29:04

you can see this scale. And

29:07

I think what you need to be

29:09

as a surgeon is to understand the

29:12

problem and managers as if it was

29:14

a member of your family and not

29:16

be to over emotional about it. Be

29:19

very prepared to listen and I think

29:21

explain the technique in the complications clearly

29:23

and then I think things are much

29:26

easier because it's still a very scary

29:28

process. I have to say haven't gone

29:30

to for maze of procedures. I have

29:33

no fear of surgery at all because

29:35

the results are generally it's. Clear

29:37

and the technique is usually find

29:39

to get the odd catastrophe, but

29:41

he probably knew I. Had

29:44

that over answers your question is difficult. On

29:47

the stand as frankness and some

29:49

compassion without being over sentimental is

29:51

important things in the most important

29:53

his belt to do the operation

29:55

probably. Indeed, indeed the thank

29:57

you so much for you to. In

30:00

talking to us about the is

30:02

his origin period I suppose is

30:05

more than surgery and giving us

30:07

a sense of how it created

30:09

a stepping stone to today. Much

30:12

no questions and will end. In

30:22

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30:24

his history his any.

30:26

Researchers Smith my producer

30:29

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