0:00

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked

0:02

Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless

0:04

companies are allowed to raise prices due

0:06

to inflation. They said yes. And then

0:09

when I asked if raising prices technically

0:11

violates those onerous two-year contracts, they said,

0:13

what the f*** are you talking about,

0:15

you insane Hollywood a*****e? So to

0:17

recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a

0:19

month to just $15 a month. Give

0:22

it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45

0:25

up front for three months plus taxes and fees. Promote for new

0:27

customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. Mint

0:29

Unlimited slows. A

0:33

cast powers the world's best podcast.

0:35

Here's a show that we recommend.

0:39

Hey, I I'm Air Name's editor at large,

0:42

The Nineteenth News, and a journalist who has

0:44

spent the last twenty years working hard to

0:46

tell the truth. I'm also a black

0:48

woman born and raised in the South. So. I've

0:50

seen how often journalists get stories wrong. That's

0:52

why I decided to start The Amendment, a

0:54

weekly podcast where I talk to folks with

0:57

unique perspective to try to get it the

0:59

truth behind the biggest stories of our day.

1:01

Whether that means talking to Wesley Morris about

1:03

the politics behind the Oscars. I do spend

1:05

a lot. Of time thinking about like wonder

1:07

how this would have gone if anatomy

1:09

before was about a black woman jail.

1:13

Or Nicole Hannah Jones about the stakes of

1:15

our election. And we have to figure

1:17

out how to not discover Chomp. That all. Of

1:19

the ways that democracies being eroded,

1:21

tune into The Amendment. Listen wherever

1:23

you get your podcast. He.

1:27

Cast helps creators launch, grow

1:29

and one of times the

1:32

podcast everywhere a cast.com. At

1:41

the end of Fifteen Ninety

1:43

Nine into early sixteen hundred

1:45

villages for sure in the

1:48

center of Friends told magistrates

1:50

have to parliament of Paris,

1:52

the Criminal Court is jurisdiction

1:54

covered over half the French

1:56

population Of the appalling acts

1:58

of rape, pillage, torture, and

2:00

murder, inflicted on them a decade earlier,

2:02

in the winter of 1590-91, by Mathieu

2:04

Delac Today's

2:29

guest has examined the trial of Mathieu Delac demonstrating

2:32

how much could be achieved

2:34

when a resourceful and wealthy

2:37

plaintiff, in this case a

2:39

woman, led the charge. The

2:42

testimonies that emerged from Chomos villagers

2:44

give us some insight into what

2:46

it was like to live through

2:48

France's 16th century religious wars. My

2:52

guest is Dr Tom Hamilton, Associate

2:54

Professor in Early Modern European History

2:56

at Durham University, and

2:58

the author most recently of A Widow's

3:00

Vengeance After the Wars of Religion, Gender

3:03

and Justice in René-Sence, France. He's

3:06

also written articles about the case for history

3:08

today, and for the journals History

3:10

Workshop and French History, all of which

3:12

are currently open access. And

3:14

not only that, but he's also transcribed

3:17

the trial, and the full text of

3:19

it can be found on criminalcorpus.org. This

3:22

case is fascinating, one of the

3:24

first criminal trials to survive from

3:26

the 16th century in the archives

3:28

of the Parliament of Paris. This

3:30

podcast contains references to violence, rape

3:33

and homicide. Dr

3:41

Hamilton, Tom, welcome back to Not Just the

3:43

Tudors. Hi, Judy, thanks for having me again.

3:46

So, I thought I'd start by

3:48

asking you how you came across

3:50

this trial, and what about it

3:52

caught your interest? I guess the

3:54

question underlying that one is, what

3:57

sort of history do you care about writing? Is it... In

4:00

the trial that I came across when I was working

4:02

in the National Archives in Paris, and

4:04

I was particularly looking at an archive

4:06

series of criminal records of the High

4:09

Courts of the Parliament of Paris.

4:11

But really I wanted to find evidence of

4:13

people's experience in the French Wars of Religion.

4:15

And it's really hard to come across ordinary

4:18

people's experiences in the 16th century when

4:20

most people were illiterate and sources are

4:22

scarce. People might turn up in tax

4:24

records potentially if they're wealthy enough to

4:26

pay a tax, but that's not their

4:29

own voices of the period. So I

4:31

thought maybe if I look at criminal

4:33

archives I at least find somebody asking

4:35

a question and writing down

4:37

responses of anyone who ends up in a

4:39

trial for whatever reason, they're prosecuting their witnesses

4:42

and they might be accused. But

4:44

the archives are sometimes a bit overwhelming. I

4:46

found a series of records of criminal trials

4:49

and looking through them I realised this one

4:51

was astonishing because it had probably the longest

4:53

amount of testimony of any trial

4:55

I'd seen in the 16th century criminal archives

4:57

in France of evidence

5:00

of the impact of the Wars of Religion,

5:02

how people lived through the troubles and in

5:04

this case sought justice for

5:06

some of the soldiers' violent experience. So

5:10

can you paint a brief picture,

5:12

she says, setting the impossible of the

5:15

Wars of Religion up to 1590 and

5:17

what that meant then for the villagers

5:19

of Chommo which we're going to be talking

5:21

about? It's interesting. The trial comes up towards

5:23

the end of the Wars of Religion and

5:25

what's conventionally classed as the Eight Civil War.

5:28

It's a period of nearly four decades of

5:30

conflict between Catholics and Protestants. The

5:32

context of the Wars of Religion is

5:34

the European Reformation and especially the French

5:37

Reformation in the early part of the

5:39

city's entry but really within France a

5:41

number of converts to Protestantism, especially in

5:43

the Calvinist tradition, expands dramatically

5:46

in mid-centuries, the 1550s, just as the

5:48

monarchies trying to clamp down on Protestant

5:50

worship, increase the number of prosecutions of

5:52

heresy, then I think people start to

5:54

see if this faith is worth dying

5:56

for, maybe then they'll want to condemn

5:58

it. There's a crisis on the one

6:00

hand of the growth of Protestantism in

6:03

the French Kingdom, which is Catholic under

6:05

a Catholic monarchy. On the other hand,

6:07

there's a crisis of the monarchy. When

6:09

in 1559, King Henry II was killed in

6:11

a jousting accident, he had three

6:13

sons, but none of them had children. So

6:16

Charles IX, Henry III, and also Duke of

6:18

Alaincon died before the end of Henry III's

6:20

reign. So there's a succession

6:22

crisis and a religious crisis. And the combination

6:24

of those two leads to conventionally

6:27

eight civil wars, but really a sequence

6:29

of major conflicts between Catholics

6:31

and Protestants, known as Huguenot, but

6:34

also a larger expanded European conflict that

6:36

involves the Papacy, the Spanish monarchy, a

6:39

transactional conflict that involves Tudor England, the

6:41

Netherlands. And it means that France in

6:43

the second half of the 16th century

6:46

is at the heart of Reformation Europe

6:48

and the fate of the Reformation is

6:50

at hand there. And what has happened

6:52

in 1589, 1590, immediately before the events at hand? So

6:57

this is the turning point in the final phase of

6:59

the wars religion. They're known as the wars or the

7:01

troubles of the Catholic League. And the

7:03

Catholic League is a group that's formed under the

7:06

leadership of the Gies family of France, with support

7:08

of the Papacy and the Spanish monarchy, to

7:10

prevent the succession to the throne of

7:13

the Protestant Henry of Navarre. And because

7:15

the last Valois king, Henry III, didn't

7:17

have an heir, that meant that Navarre

7:19

was next in line by hereditary descent.

7:22

Henry III was assassinated in

7:25

1589 by Jacques Clemence, who's a Dominican friar from

7:27

Sainte in central France, and he

7:29

had no heir. Next in line to

7:31

the throne by hereditary descent was Henry of Navarre, who

7:33

later became King Henry IV. But

7:36

before he became King Henry IV, there

7:38

was a vast war to stop him

7:40

because the Catholic League wanted a Catholic

7:43

claimant primarily rather than the

7:45

next hereditary claimant. And in

7:47

between there are all sorts

7:49

of negotiations of Catholic royalty

7:51

support Navarre versus Catholic extremists,

7:53

as the runners would say,

7:55

who were supporting the League.

7:58

And that conflict came to a halt. in

8:01

1590 when Nivar's troops laid

8:04

siege to Paris. Paris supported

8:06

the League as an uprising the day of

8:08

the barricades where theology students

8:10

along with Catholic militia took control of

8:12

the capital and so Nivar

8:14

wants to win the capital and hopefully

8:17

gain the kingdom, failed, went to

8:19

the siege Sance, the cathedral city in

8:21

central France. Again his army failed but

8:23

it's when Nivar's army leaves Sance that

8:25

the events that set up the trial

8:27

take place. So let's

8:30

talk about the villain of

8:32

this piece, Matriourand de la

8:35

Cauch, of what was he

8:37

guilty during this winter of

8:40

1590-1591? So Matriourand de la

8:42

Cauch was a soldier in Nivar's armies, fairly

8:45

sure that he was involved in the siege of Sance

8:47

and he was certainly involved in a much smaller siege

8:49

of a small town called Valerie to the west of

8:52

Sance. Matriourand de la Cauch

8:54

and his small band of soldiers, maybe a

8:56

dozen of them, that winter, were looking for

8:58

someone to stay, so they overwintered in the

9:01

Chateau of Chaudon which is a small land

9:03

to the west of Sance, Southe Valerie, and

9:06

there they claimed food and board,

9:08

they claimed lodgings and possessions, they

9:11

also claimed sexual power over women

9:13

in the village. In the trial

9:15

that happened nearly a decade later,

9:18

Matriourand de la Cauch was found guilty of at

9:20

least 16 names

9:22

identified counts of rape, he

9:24

was found guilty of at least eight

9:26

counts of homicide and unnumbered amounts of

9:29

theft and pillage. Throughout that period he

9:31

arrives in All Saints Day, 1st November

9:33

1590, he leaves around just before Easter

9:35

in the New Year, 1691, so it's

9:38

a significant period of a number of

9:40

months where he's in control

9:42

and is terrorizing this village. And

9:45

actually some of the records which

9:47

you have also transcribed and published

9:49

so people can consult them, demonstrate

9:52

a kind of psychopathic level of

9:54

violence in this period. I suppose this is what the

9:56

debate comes down to in terms of the trial, we'll

9:58

talk a bit more about this. and new cause,

10:00

whether this is in the course of his scholarly duties

10:02

or not. But there is a sense that

10:05

this is going way beyond anything that could

10:07

be justified under the terms of his commission.

10:10

It's a really interesting problem. It's hard to

10:12

interpret the wars of religion are known as

10:14

an extremely violent period of European history. There

10:17

are many violent soldiers at work during

10:19

the wars of religion. I think here

10:21

in some ways there's a degree that

10:23

civilians did suffer from soldiers' violence. However,

10:26

the extremes of cruelty would be

10:28

how contemporaries put it, that Massacandal Akane

10:30

showed, do make him stand out.

10:33

And he's somebody who had a reputation

10:35

for violence before he entered the Chateau

10:37

of Chumon to control of it. In

10:40

Valerie during the siege there, he was

10:42

accused and there were witnesses proving that

10:44

he had quitted active rape at that

10:47

point. He was noticed on

10:49

his very litigious. I found him in

10:51

the records of the local court in

10:53

Valerie 10 years earlier, although

10:55

I found his wife trying to divorce him

10:57

at that point. They're the most common people

11:00

appearing in the law courts. She's trying to

11:02

divorce him while they're being sued. And for

11:04

other points, he's clearly someone who's contentious,

11:07

but has a potential and a

11:09

track record of committing extreme violence

11:11

that was beyond what people expected

11:14

or allowed even in the most violent age

11:16

of the wars of religion. And

11:19

as you say, it kind of reveals

11:21

evidence of soldiers' violence towards civilians that

11:24

we don't otherwise have much testimony about.

11:27

But before we get any further, let's

11:29

talk about the heroine of this story

11:31

as well, René Chevalier. Now you characterise

11:33

her as the persistent widow. Can you

11:36

also explain her position as

11:38

Seigneur and how unusual that was?

11:42

She's fascinating. When I first found the trial,

11:44

I struggled to work out to transcribe what

11:46

is Shumu. I think sometimes the place, the

11:48

proper names, are the hardest things with the

11:50

handwriting, because normally you can expect the kind

11:52

of things that might turn up. But names

11:54

even putting it on a map took me

11:56

a long time. When I Realised

11:58

that the Lord of the Rings... The show was

12:00

of an issue valley. Who. Married

12:03

five times to be aged eighty

12:05

nine. She. Sued her uncle, her

12:07

mother in law, her third husband, a brother

12:09

in law and others. More than that she

12:11

always one. I kept trying to find Hulu

12:13

the a case in the trial. she's always

12:16

successful in litigation still not paying off debts

12:18

that sheath fascinating at the point that divine

12:20

takes place. she'd already be with over the

12:22

first time since she was the rural law

12:24

at the center of the chateau living I

12:26

with our household of servants. When method that

12:29

I caught arrived she said one of her

12:31

sons to spy on him. She's one of

12:33

the my simple witnesses Genes Apple. Does.

12:36

It's interesting that eventually as a lot it's

12:38

not that rare that wouldn't feel old. So

12:41

I colleague Epigram Gehring is welcome lords in

12:43

the late Middle Ages. He points out that

12:45

something like two fifths of Lords and Lynette

12:47

evil France or women as broadly the number

12:50

of women in the Us Senate army correctly.

12:52

so his felt that much a couple of

12:54

progress that I think steam or lordship with

12:56

the fact of life. and of unease

12:59

about he shows this. The. She'll say shows

13:01

how. Widows had extra capacity

13:03

for legal independents that she could

13:05

south a trial on her initiative,

13:07

not respond to any husband demands.

13:09

I think. Mack. Gondola cause

13:12

masterly underestimated her. When.

13:15

He invaded the chateau shallow he thought that she

13:17

was so on he could take advantage of. He.

13:19

Accused her of supporting the Catholic League.

13:21

She had a very strong track record

13:23

of the on opposite sides of the

13:25

conflict. He didn't realize the man opposition

13:27

the you safe by invading how chateau

13:29

and causing such extreme violence against the

13:32

villages. When I think. That

13:35

he is not said that it

13:37

is unusual that she's been this

13:40

case. As. I start

13:42

by the fact. That this case happens

13:44

it all depends so much as

13:46

the title of your book suggests

13:48

on her own initiative on high

13:50

and expenditure on her doggedness agency

13:52

that even in length of time

13:54

it took to go to trial

13:56

the think it's even about the

13:59

logistics of it, she gets it

14:01

it. fifty seven witnesses up the

14:03

river to Paris you comedy some

14:05

there for criminal trial to testify

14:07

before the intimidating prison magistrates a

14:09

me this is quite extraordinary. See

14:11

the Complete Master of using the law

14:14

courts in the city than than it

14:16

answers. To. For the witnesses see chart

14:18

of the boat from some. The. Goes

14:20

down there of a young of the same

14:22

as the powers she has a hotel or

14:24

residents in Paris on the left bank of

14:27

the sang sung the boat would have dogs

14:29

out that a house I found orders for

14:31

wine the would to keep the fire going

14:33

through the window seen as nine and he

14:35

didn't hundred when the witnesses are in Paris

14:38

the by that point she knew how to

14:40

work because. Because she'd already.

14:42

Litigated. Successfully have a

14:44

different phases Poly it's a plenty about

14:47

her status. She's a widow she the

14:49

lord. She had failed her villages by

14:51

lie my family cause to invade and

14:53

take control. She'd failed to do justice

14:55

A senior. Don't. Other hand, she's

14:58

exceptional because another diverges five years

15:00

old. Her. Uncle took

15:02

control of her guardianship. He.

15:05

Use a third of her fortune

15:07

to finance a Protestant armies in

15:09

around sounds. So. He

15:11

arranged her first marriage to Michael Mccann the

15:13

guys who the finance yeah, he saved the

15:16

fortunes, the house in Nevada or then took

15:18

a job in part and said. That.

15:20

He had a protestant mother so that

15:22

was potty. convenient. So. English about

15:24

his uncle Fishy feed her uncle for

15:27

gardens back. That's a long time. Nothing.

15:30

Illegal his mother said when he shot his

15:32

mother in law. Was. Fascinating her

15:34

own right, she fled to Geneva.

15:36

With. The Bishop of Nevada. And

15:38

combat the person isn't. The. Visual to

15:41

that was executed for treason and for not

15:43

having had a current marriage contre when they

15:45

arrived Seventies Valley of the defend her inheritance

15:47

from first husband against her Mother in law

15:49

says she got your really compare to the

15:52

asian and always succeed. It's a she knew

15:54

what was required, the locals what is the

15:56

standard of proof. What? Can a

15:58

plaintive due to. Charter the boat,

16:00

provide the packed lunch and the wine but

16:03

not provide so much of a tasty patterns

16:05

that counted as bribery month and then of

16:07

course tried to say she had robin the

16:09

witnesses training them to lot to do getting

16:12

punched incentives that the witnesses say actually know

16:14

I'm out of pocket. I spent four months

16:16

in Paris. My. Shoe the war now

16:18

I what part of the way to the

16:21

got off the boat see did all that

16:23

was required to prosecute any shows the in

16:25

early modern period in the city century it

16:27

was difficult to prosecute. he did or resources

16:29

pile authority in know how but it wasn't

16:32

impossible to prosecute If we think that. A

16:34

trial that takes. Eight or nine

16:36

years to get to cause. A proxy

16:38

sexual violence breathing does slow inefficient as

16:41

we might have some as one day

16:43

that the criticism. A sixteenth

16:45

century justice. What? We think

16:47

about twenty first century justice. And

16:49

the that's a couple more obstacles

16:52

in the way of this. going

16:54

to trial because it's after the

16:56

edict is not which is best

16:58

Her brought an end to the

17:00

religious wars of the previous for

17:02

decades that comes with conditions and

17:04

it's in a period where under

17:06

criminal justice system it is hard

17:08

for women. To. Prosecute sexual crimes,

17:11

Conditions under which they are due to have

17:14

happened They have to pay is. That. They

17:16

had resisted. They have to

17:18

have witnesses. These are challenging.

17:20

Circumstances it's really difficult around. It's

17:22

rare to prosecute sexual violence, I

17:24

think. Look, I thought I'm researching

17:26

the book that it's not as

17:28

rare as insurance claim. I

17:30

for their number. Going around the literature that

17:33

there were only a dozen or so. Rape

17:35

cases and I looked into the footnotes

17:37

and typically when he saw the trace

17:40

it back It comes from a myth

17:42

as I found many times that number

17:44

of cases in a sauna muschamp we're

17:46

so wouldn't do prosecute the sexual violence

17:48

but still that exception and I can't

17:50

prove this at the sense that because

17:53

only studies the plaintiff. this

17:55

a female plaintiff thought that encourage

17:57

the women of shovel to testify

17:59

in court. In a Parisian court, these

18:01

are villagers from central France who've possibly

18:04

never even seen the Quile city of

18:06

Sainz, let alone Paris, testifying

18:08

face-to-face against a soldier and a

18:10

rapist, in some instances saying that

18:13

he had raped them or their relatives and friends.

18:15

So that required courage, also high

18:18

quality of evidence, a large number of witnesses

18:20

with a clear view and a clear recollection.

18:23

But that's one thing to prosecute the challenge

18:25

of possibly in sexual violence. As

18:27

you said, the other point here is the context of

18:29

the wars of religion. The edict of

18:31

Nantes, one of a sequence of edicts that

18:33

bring peace and religious toleration at

18:35

the end of each phase of the civil wars.

18:37

But the point that's best known about it is

18:40

the first article. Everyone remembers that the first point

18:42

of Nantes is that you should forget the wars

18:44

of religion. And that doesn't mean wipe your

18:46

memory as a blank slate, but it

18:48

means don't pick up disputes that

18:50

were linked to civil wars, an amnesty clause.

18:52

And that's article one, but then I think

18:55

this trial depends on a more specific article,

18:57

86, which is the article

18:59

on exocable crimes, which basically

19:01

means if an incident

19:03

is so severe, so violent, which includes

19:06

soldiers, rape and acts of homicide, which

19:08

don't follow the orders of their hierarchy,

19:10

then that is a crime, not an

19:13

act of war, and it can be

19:15

prosecuted. Whereas an act of war would

19:18

be covered by the amnesty clause. So it's

19:20

a complicated balance of organizing

19:22

a trial, bringing the quality

19:24

of evidence, but also negotiating a

19:26

quite specific political context that was

19:29

trying to prevent between acknowledgement of

19:31

these kinds of cases, race

19:33

and violence. Age

19:59

to the first. real-life store stage all the

20:01

way to the did we just hit a

20:03

million orders stage? Shopify is

20:05

there to help you grow. Shopify

20:07

helps you turn browsers into buyers

20:09

with the internet's best converting checkout.

20:11

36% better on average compared

20:14

to other leading commerce platforms because

20:17

businesses that grow grow with Shopify.

20:19

Get a $1 per

20:21

month trial period

20:23

at shopify.com/work. shopify.com

20:27

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we

20:30

like to do the opposite of what Big

20:32

Wireless does. They charge you a lot, we

20:34

charge you a little. So naturally, when they

20:36

announced they'd be raising their prices due to

20:38

inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due

20:40

to not hating you. That's right! We're cutting

20:42

the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a

20:44

month to just $15 a month. Give

20:48

it a try at mintmobile.com. $45

20:52

up front for 3 months plus taxes and fees. Promote it for new

20:54

customers for a limited time. Unlimited more than 40GB per month. Mint Slows.

20:56

Full terms at mintmobile.com. This

20:59

is After Dark. Myths, misdeeds

21:01

and the paranormal. The

21:04

podcast that takes you to the

21:06

shadiest corners of the past. Unpicking

21:08

history's spookiest, strangest and most sinister

21:11

stories. I'm Maddy Pelling and

21:13

I'm Anthony Delaney. Join us every Monday

21:15

and Thursday and we'll take a look

21:17

at the darker side of history from

21:19

haunted pubs to Houdini to witch trials

21:22

and arsenic-laced breakfast. Follow After

21:24

Dark, Myths, misdeeds and the paranormal

21:26

wherever you get your podcast. Brought

21:29

to you by History Hit. Can

21:40

you give us some examples of the testimonies

21:42

that were given? It's establishing

21:44

some of the things that people were

21:46

saying during the trial. One example

21:49

that really stuck out to me

21:51

was Nachandar Akanje's homicide killing of

21:53

Llewelles Sorens. Llewelles Sorens was a

21:55

laborer who worked in Shumu. Nachandar

21:58

Akanje accused him of being a spy. for

22:00

the Catholic League. He accused everybody in

22:02

the village of being against him. It's

22:04

a conspiracy mindset. So to

22:07

punish Noel Sorens for allegedly spying

22:09

against him, Massrand de la Cange tied

22:11

him up. But he tied him

22:13

up, according to Noel Sorens widow,

22:15

so tightly it was like a

22:17

bushel of wheat. And he pushed him

22:19

down the hill and was attacking him with

22:22

his sword. He attacked him with horses hooves

22:24

that kicked him. And apparently, according to the

22:26

testimony, his eyes were bulging as

22:28

a result of the attacks he suffered. That's

22:31

one of the incidents that becomes most common. I

22:33

think because Noel Sorens was very well liked, one

22:35

of the villagers said he was his best friend

22:37

in the world. Another of

22:39

the villagers was a childhood friend of

22:41

Massrand de la Cange, who said that he'd

22:44

shared the la Cange's bed more than 100

22:46

times growing up together in the village of

22:48

Dolo nearby. But Massrand de la Cange took

22:51

him hostage, tried to get a ransom

22:53

for him and tied him up. And when

22:55

he tied him up, it was apparently so

22:57

cruelly, he said that when the weather changed, he

23:00

felt his whole body in pain and he

23:02

was so bruised, his widow said that there

23:04

wasn't a part of him that you couldn't

23:06

see touched by the bruising. And he said

23:08

he wished he wasn't still living. It was

23:10

really tragic testimony. And then probably

23:13

the incident that's most often

23:15

mentioned is the series of attacks

23:17

Massrand de la Cange inflicted on

23:19

a woman from the village called Vard

23:21

Gautier, who had died before the

23:23

trial took place. And Massrand

23:25

de la Cange raped her

23:28

in the great hall of the chateau in

23:30

the presence of soldiers and some

23:32

of the villagers. And there were some villagers

23:35

who said they watched through the

23:37

keyhole because they were forced to watch by

23:39

Massrand de la Cange's soldiers. And that is

23:41

an important incident. It's an example of Massrand

23:43

de la Cange using rape as a weapon

23:45

of war. And here it is the case

23:47

and social scientists, war study scholars are debated

23:49

how far that is the case. What's the

23:52

function here? Is Massrand de la Cange being

23:54

a typical soldier, trying to make

23:56

his fellow soldiers complicit in an act of

23:58

sexual violence. They've all committed this. together,

24:00

they're all culpable. Is it to

24:02

intimidate the villagers? It seems true in this case, but

24:05

it's not the only incident of sexual violence. And

24:07

I think one contemporary lesson that feminist legal

24:09

scholars have raised from this point is

24:11

to say that not all rape committed by

24:13

soldiers in warfare is an act of war.

24:16

That almost sounds like it's in a pre-modern

24:18

context, even the site of legitimacy. It doesn't

24:20

have that in the slightest. Rape

24:22

is a crime and the

24:24

variety of sexual violence inflicted

24:26

on Mattschandlerkage was such that some

24:29

of it was in private houses, some of it was

24:31

in the vineyards, some of it was in view of

24:33

many villages. And it was the variety

24:35

of incidents that matter. And I think it's important

24:37

legally to identify what's happening, what

24:39

are the conditions, what's at stake of

24:41

an incident to find the appropriate legal

24:44

response. I'm also struck by the choice

24:46

you just made not to turn our

24:48

eyes away from the scene. And

24:50

I think there's an interesting decision to

24:53

be made as historians when we come

24:55

to think about this material. Because

24:58

on the one hand, you want

25:00

to do justice, I suppose, to

25:02

the people who experienced this savagery.

25:05

And that means in part saying

25:07

what was done to them. And

25:09

yet I'm struck by Sergio

25:12

Hartmann's challenge, how can we do more

25:14

than recount the violence that deposited these

25:16

traces in the archives? How can you

25:18

do more than keep rehearsing

25:21

the violence against these women and men

25:23

in this case as well, so that

25:25

we're not just being titillated by it?

25:28

I found that so difficult to write

25:30

about. I think one answer I had

25:32

here was, as you mentioned, to edit

25:34

the complete trial record. The sources out

25:37

there, it's transcribed. It's so rare to

25:39

find this kind of eyewitness testimony. A

25:41

soldier's sexual violence, even if tragically

25:43

the soldier's sexual violence was fairly common.

25:46

Here in writing the chapter,

25:48

I wanted to analyze

25:50

it as a problem and think about

25:53

how did the villagers tell their stories, but why

25:56

did they tell their stories in a certain way?

25:58

What was the stake for them? And

26:00

also to think about the incidents and what

26:02

they saw and I can say happened in

26:04

a way that makes a historical question How

26:06

do we know what happened? But also how

26:08

did they know what happened? What was

26:11

the standard of proof in the law courts? What

26:13

did the villagers have to say to prove

26:15

to the judges that Mathis van der Lechas

26:17

had committed all of these heinous crimes? and

26:19

so their way of telling a story in a

26:22

way is extremely vivid and situated

26:24

and I found never

26:26

gratuitous. It was accurate They wanted to give

26:28

a precise account of what he had done

26:31

on his motivations because that's what the judges

26:33

are looking for to find a guilty verdict

26:36

But their testimony was so detailed and

26:38

precise in a way I relied

26:41

on quoting them letting them tell

26:43

their story and giving a sense

26:45

of what justice meant to them And

26:47

so René Chevalier who is coordinating and supporting

26:49

their claims But I was

26:51

constantly when I was editing the

26:54

text thinking have I conveyed what their

26:56

point is I've done justice to

26:58

their testimony without making a gratuitous

27:00

scene of violence for itself But

27:03

rather for the historical sort of justice that they

27:05

shared It's interesting

27:07

then to think about the way

27:09

that the story was shaped for the

27:11

audience because Then it

27:13

would be things like having heard cries

27:16

or having seen Violence committed because then

27:18

you've got witnesses It would be the

27:20

fact that women would need to cry

27:22

out to demonstrate that they were resisting

27:25

And one thing as you know I've written about

27:28

rape and sexual assault in this very period in

27:30

France in the 16th century But

27:32

cases that fell under that kind

27:35

of legal standard for conviction because

27:37

they're being carried out in Ordinary

27:39

life they're being carried out by women

27:41

who quite often are going silent through

27:44

the trauma of rape but here we

27:46

have a situation where the testimony has

27:48

to fit the narrative that the criminal

27:50

court is going to recognize as Violence

27:54

and as rape the comparison

27:56

between what you're writing out in voice

27:58

of NIM was fascinating when I

28:00

was analyzing this trial because there are different levels

28:03

of justice. And I think with

28:05

the Consistory Court in Neem that

28:07

you wrote about, so effectively it

28:09

was fascinating that there's everyday violence.

28:11

This builds up in their community

28:13

and what goes for the Consistory

28:16

Court maybe has a lower threshold

28:18

for being denounced. Whereas what

28:20

goes to a criminal court requires so

28:22

much more financing and organization. It means

28:24

that you only get the really tip

28:26

of the iceberg of the most extreme

28:30

incidents with the most

28:32

coordinated campaigns of prosecutors. I

28:34

think the levels of justice work

28:36

together. We only know about the

28:38

more everyday patterns of violence

28:41

and patriarchy through the kinds of records

28:43

that you analyzed in the case of

28:45

Neem. And here I've got an exceptional

28:47

trial but I'm trying to work out

28:50

what elements are typical, what are exceptional.

28:53

Overall it's such a difficult problem. I

28:55

had a whole chapter that

28:57

I was very pleased with the statistical

28:59

analysis of all the trials and every

29:01

reader said I think that might break

29:03

up the narrative. I was

29:05

quite wedded to giving a context. It now

29:07

becomes a footnote and a separate article. I

29:10

think there counting was always me trying to

29:12

work out how typical what is, how many

29:14

trials are coming to court, what's the impact

29:16

of war on the business of justice, what

29:18

kind of trials are there. This case isn't

29:21

alone but certainly there

29:24

are not thousands of trials. There may

29:26

be dozens of trials of this nature but

29:29

none of them quite so well

29:31

conserved. Because the archives assisted, not

29:34

every record survives. In Paris

29:36

every trial was kept in a canvas case bag.

29:40

In the Toulouse archives the case bags are conserved.

29:42

There are more than a hundred thousand of them

29:44

still most of them uncathologued for

29:46

the seventh century. In Paris the judges sent

29:48

the case bags back to local courts. So

29:50

the entire trial is not there so I

29:52

transcribed more than 40,000 words. That's

29:54

still not the whole thing but the copy that

29:56

was kept in Paris gives that testimony

29:58

and it's just so... that this trial

30:01

not others have survived. I think here

30:03

the fact that Ganesha Valley was such

30:05

a determined plaintiff also helps in parts

30:07

explain that she made sure the

30:09

records kept in the archives. It's

30:12

so interesting I was asked this question a lot

30:14

about typicality and it's almost impossible to answer because

30:16

on the one hand as you say these

30:19

rapes are so multiple, the violence is

30:21

so excreval, this is on such a

30:23

grand and such witness scale that

30:26

it is obviously exceptional. And

30:28

yet it may only be

30:30

here because of the efforts of René

30:33

Chevalier, this one woman campaign to push

30:35

this to justice which means

30:37

that there may be many more instances of

30:39

this that just never saw the light of

30:41

the court. It's a really

30:43

important question to ask. The one point that

30:46

I draw from this trial is that it's

30:48

likely that there was far more instance of

30:50

extreme violence throughout the Civil War. This is

30:52

warfare, this is civil war of

30:54

a nature that impacts directly on civilian

30:57

population. On the other hand I

30:59

take some encouragement from the fact that the

31:02

villagers were willing to spend six

31:04

to eight months of their lives to

31:07

prosecute Madame de la Cage and to

31:09

say in the law courts in Paris and have it written

31:11

down by scribes that it's

31:13

not acceptable for soldiers to

31:15

commit sexual violence, it's not acceptable for

31:18

soldiers to run Saka village, that the

31:20

customs of law might be sometimes unclear

31:22

and might be debate at the time

31:25

but there's one thing for a jurist or a

31:27

general to say soldiers cannot use this extreme

31:29

of violence and there are uncertainties around that

31:32

but villagers know very well what's acceptable and

31:34

here they said this goes far beyond the

31:36

pale. There's a passage from the Essex of

31:38

Misha de Montaigne in that chapter on cruelty

31:41

where he was trying to distance himself from

31:45

certain kinds of violence. He said all peasants

31:47

they can stick a pig or put a

31:49

chicken's neck. That makes him squirm but he

31:51

thought there was maybe some difference still between

31:53

the kind of everyday violence of the farmyard

31:56

and the kind of extreme cruelty he saw

31:58

in the wars of religion. which

32:00

he thought was even more extreme than the most

32:02

extreme examples he'd read in Roman history. So

32:05

judging the typicality or exceptionality

32:07

of soldiers' violence, we can look into the

32:09

law courts, we can look it through writers

32:11

like Montaigne, but I think I so appreciate

32:13

the work on this trial because I could

32:15

judge it from the perspective of a villager

32:17

called Orlith Cuyu, who can sign better than

32:19

her husband and can say very well that

32:21

Matanakar should not have taken her grain. She

32:23

was at one villager who tried to prosecute

32:25

him immediately. Didn't manage it then,

32:27

but I think would have been satisfied nearly

32:30

10 years later. One

32:32

thing that came to me, you mentioned

32:35

earlier that one of the people witnessing

32:37

against him had slept in a bed

32:39

with him a hundred times. So

32:41

he's from a nearby village. He

32:44

knew some of the people that he hurt. And

32:46

I wondered how much that played

32:48

a role in the urgency of

32:50

securing justice against him. Matanakar

32:53

clearly is somebody who's well connected in

32:56

the region. He grew

32:58

up in the household of

33:00

the Arlí family. As it turned out,

33:03

Ashil de Arlí became by sitting hundred

33:05

when the trial was happening, the first

33:07

present of Pardon of Paris. And on

33:09

his day of execution, Matanakan was waiting

33:11

for a pardon because he thought that

33:14

having lived in this household would

33:16

have given him some favour. And it clearly

33:18

didn't. The Arlí family include

33:20

Christophe de Arlí, Chard de Arlí. Christophe de

33:22

Arlí became an ambassador in England. Chard de

33:24

Arlí was governor in France. So he had

33:27

significant patrons, I think, who probably got him

33:29

into the army and were on the royalist

33:31

side. But Matanakan

33:33

also had patronage

33:36

from René Ville as his

33:38

general, Ciorre de Champs-Ivo. And basically

33:41

when the violence ended, Chard de

33:43

Arlí pulled out Matanakan from the village and

33:45

he sent twelve noblemen in,

33:48

including Chard de Arlí, saying to

33:50

him, At this point, you're needed

33:52

elsewhere, but potentially I think he would have heard

33:54

that the La Canche had gone too far and

33:56

had to be stopped. However, the La Canche was

33:58

rewarded, he became... Provost

34:00

Marshall, which is head of the

34:02

highway police and military justice, he

34:05

was the one in charge of military justice

34:07

in the region immediately after the wars of

34:09

religion. So he had

34:11

the fear of protection. I found him, when

34:14

he got that role, selling his farm in Dolo, buying

34:16

a house in Sance. He was going

34:18

up in the world. His general got the cordon bleu,

34:20

the blue sash of the Order of St. Michel. They're

34:23

being rewarded for violence in the

34:25

name of Henry Navarre, so-called good

34:27

King Henry, here who's patronising extremely

34:29

cruel soldiers. However, when his general

34:31

dies, when Dolo got his general

34:33

champs vivos, dies somewhere

34:35

around 1996, then Renishia

34:38

Valley begins the trouble. So she knows

34:40

how to negotiate the local hierarchy. And

34:42

one thing she also does is get

34:44

documents signed by, I think, eight leading

34:47

noblemen and officeholders of the

34:49

law courts in Sance, saying

34:51

and signing to say, Renishia Valley

34:54

supported the King all along. She

34:56

was never a leaguer. She was the

34:58

first chaper to declare publicly for the King. So

35:01

you can't doubt her credentials. And I think that

35:03

really outflanks the l'acage in the courtroom. He thinks

35:05

he can slander her as a leaguer, but

35:08

he has no idea the degree of her,

35:10

or at least has no avowed sense, the

35:12

degree of her patronage network, support

35:15

the Duke of Navarre, her royalist credentials

35:17

in Sance and in Paris.

35:20

So the l'acage is well connected, but

35:22

his connections and his well don't match

35:24

Renishia Valley. And

35:27

do you think that's ultimately why the

35:29

case is successful? Because at

35:32

one level it seems extraordinary that a

35:34

soldier who has fought for the new King should

35:37

then be executed for

35:39

what he protests he's done in trying

35:42

to establish royal authority. In a

35:44

way it's an impossible question to answer, because

35:46

it's an internal versus external exhalation of

35:48

how law functions. And I suppose my

35:50

point is that they go together.

35:52

On the one hand you need to have the

35:54

circumstances that are right for the trial to take

35:56

place. On the other hand, you

35:58

do need the evidence. Maybe here

36:01

I'm being too much aligned with the

36:03

judges I work on a bit into as detail

36:05

but I think they do have a sense of

36:07

proof. They do have a sense of

36:09

what is justice. Roman law

36:11

in the sittinies century is very comprehensive

36:14

and at least in the appeal courts

36:17

it's very hard to

36:19

win a case without a body

36:21

of evidence that means that the

36:24

judges can say there are valid

36:26

witnesses we have proof whether material

36:28

evidence or eyewitness evidence

36:31

but a case can't get to court

36:33

can't have support through the legal hierarchy

36:36

without the right financing connections so I

36:38

think the two do go together but

36:40

Venetia Valley had judged the right moment

36:43

to go to trial among other things

36:45

she married her second husband Charles de

36:47

la Grange in the time between initiating

36:49

the investigations against the la Cage and

36:51

bringing the case to trial so

36:54

she had extra backing and her second husband Charles

36:56

de la Grange he was also

36:58

a military general and a governor of

37:00

Isudal. Her second husband had the status

37:02

of the la Cage's patron so

37:05

from her being at risk against

37:07

the soldier and a provost-martial

37:09

in 1596 by 98-99 she's got a husband of

37:11

equal standing although he

37:16

sadly died within a year of their marriage which

37:19

does produce an incredible source of the inventory

37:21

of her household to take account of her

37:23

possessions at the moment her second husband's death

37:26

so from moment she had extra backing to

37:29

take the case to court I think I

37:31

wouldn't want to see that any further it's

37:33

the combination of circumstances and substantive

37:36

content of law that means Venetia Valley

37:38

can win the case regardless of the

37:40

La Cage's attempts to say

37:43

that she's using chicanery she's bribing

37:45

the witnesses they're all lies and

37:47

thieves and cheats you can't trust

37:49

her or the evidence he tries

37:51

everything but it's not

37:53

successful yes I was really struck

37:55

by the various ways that he was trying to defend

37:58

himself I mean typically of course imputing the sexual honour

38:00

of those who are bringing charges. It's

38:02

a fairly conventional approach but you know

38:04

call them mackerel, call them a whore

38:07

on a board and hope that the mutt will

38:09

stick. I want

38:11

to ask you one last question about

38:13

this Tom. Obviously the experience of these

38:15

villages is the primary thing here but

38:18

as a historian reading

38:21

this brutal material it also

38:23

must take a certain toll

38:25

and I wondered if you had reflected at

38:27

all on that in the course of coming

38:30

across this trial and thinking about how to

38:32

handle it. I'm always fascinated by

38:34

those who can make it their work

38:37

to go and provide justice which

38:39

means encountering some of the darkest

38:41

elements of humanity. It's a really

38:43

important question. It's one I found really difficult throughout

38:46

the research and writing and

38:48

I found it a challenge to edit

38:50

to choose the right words but also first

38:52

my solution to that was just make sure

38:55

I was sticking closely to the text and

38:57

the detail and analyzing the document. The risk

38:59

I actually felt too was having too much

39:01

distance from the violence I'm describing because I'm

39:04

accessing it through a record

39:06

written in the hand of the court

39:08

scribe. I think about a third of

39:10

the witnesses signed sometimes I can get access to

39:12

their hand on the page but

39:14

I'm also accessing a record which is framed

39:16

by the way the judges ask questions trying

39:19

to make sure the evidence conforms to

39:21

the clause of X-4 crimes they're looking

39:23

for translating it in so many ways.

39:26

So there's a degree of distance that comes from

39:28

the record but there's also a degree

39:31

of proximity that comes from eyewitness testimony

39:34

and one thing I felt quite

39:36

strongly is just that it's a really important

39:38

topic and I found it strange

39:41

looking into the wider field how

39:44

rare it is to find detailed discussion

39:46

of a full trial of sexual violence

39:49

of this nature especially during warfare when

39:51

the records are not so well conserved

39:53

but also when the assumption is that

39:55

this was common and didn't

39:57

face any consequences that soldiers would just get

40:00

away with sexual violence. So

40:02

I think at least historicizing the

40:04

village sense of justice and the Rolish

40:06

Valley sense of justice helped. What also

40:08

helped was talking to colleagues who

40:11

work on similar questions in the present. So

40:13

I've got dear colleagues in Durham, the Centre

40:15

for Research into Violence and Abuse, and

40:18

they're practitioners, colleagues at Nicole Westmanland,

40:20

they work on the front line in

40:23

terms of policy and justice and charity

40:25

work and their perspective of

40:27

how to choose the right words, what

40:29

matters, how the past might also give

40:31

us a sense that justice

40:33

can be done in the sexual violence.

40:36

And there I thought one thing derived

40:38

from these conversations was a sense that there's almost,

40:41

I'd call it a rape myth. Back

40:44

in the past in some undetermined,

40:46

imprecise date, soldiers, men could get

40:48

away with sexual violence. And

40:50

one point I want to say here is that they

40:53

couldn't. They would face justice.

40:56

Soldiers rape in war was a crime

40:58

in the 15th century. And

41:01

that at least undermines any claim to

41:03

use the past in a sloppy or

41:05

hazy way to excuse the

41:07

failures of courts to prosecute successfully

41:10

today, or to excuse

41:12

attempts to justify unjustifiable violence. So

41:14

I think there's a broader sense

41:17

of why it matters. I wanted

41:19

to focus on just the content of the trial

41:21

and the stories that came through the documents. But

41:23

I think that bigger sense of why it matters

41:25

was what encouraged me to get back to the

41:28

computer screen and transcribe again or

41:30

rewrite the passage of the most sensitive

41:32

violence that occurred in the trial, because

41:34

it matters to get it down. It

41:36

matters to surf at these texts and

41:38

make it better known that sexual

41:40

violence was a crime and

41:43

was prosecuted successfully in the 16th

41:45

century. Well, thank

41:47

you very much for joining us to

41:49

talk about it. And those who wish

41:52

to consider more this question and to

41:54

think about the realities of

41:56

life in the 16th century and what a

41:58

woman of a new could

42:00

do and what villagers of

42:03

determination could do should pick up

42:05

a widow's vengeance after

42:08

the wars of religion, gender

42:10

and justice in Renaissance France

42:12

which is out now with Oxford University

42:14

Press. Dr. Hamilton thank you

42:16

so much for your time. Thank you for your

42:18

very interesting conversations. Thank you. And

42:25

thanks to you for listening to Not Just

42:27

the Tudors from History Hit and also

42:30

to my researcher Alice Smith and my

42:32

producer Rob Weinberg. We're always

42:34

eager to hear from you so

42:36

do drop us a line at

42:39

notjustthetudorsathistoryhit.com or on X,

42:41

only known as Twitter, at

42:43

not just tutors. And

42:46

please remember to follow Not Just the Tudors wherever

42:48

you get your podcasts so you get new episodes

42:50

as soon as they're released. My

42:52

new online course Henry VIII The

42:55

Making of the Tyrant starts

42:57

this April. Go to

43:00

learn.cisandlipscomb.com to find out more and

43:03

as a listener to Not Just the Tudors

43:05

I'd like to offer you 10% off the

43:07

regular price. Use the

43:10

code NJTT10 at checkout.

43:12

That's learn.cisandlipscomb.com

43:16

NJTT10. Selling

43:25

a little or a

43:27

lot? or a lot. Shopify

43:30

helps you do your thing however you

43:32

chiching. Shopify is the global commerce platform

43:35

that helps you sell at every stage

43:37

of your business. From the launch your

43:39

online shop stage to the first real-life

43:41

store stage, all the way to the

43:44

did we just hit a million orders

43:46

stage, Shopify is there to help you

43:48

grow. Shopify helps you turn browsers into

43:50

buyers with the internet's best converting checkout.

43:53

36% better on average

43:55

compared to other leading commerce. The. Businesses

43:58

that grow grow with Shopify.

44:00

get a one dollar per

44:02

month trial period at shopify.com/work

44:05

shopify.com. Slash work. Wow.

44:08

Nice? Yeah, What

44:10

you're hearing. Or the sounds of

44:13

people everywhere putting on bomba socks,

44:15

underwear, and teachers made from absurdly

44:17

soft materials that feel like plush

44:19

clouds. Yeah, a plus. And the

44:21

best part for every item you

44:23

purchase, Bomb. Donate another to someone

44:25

facing homelessness. So I've seen how Bomb vest. often journalists get

44:27

stories wrong That's why I decided

44:29

to start the amendment a weekly podcast where I

44:32

talk to folks with unique Perspectives to try to

44:34

get at the truth behind the biggest stories of

44:36

our day Whether that means talking

44:38

to Wesley Morris about the politics behind the

44:40

Oscars I do spend a lot of time

44:42

thinking about like wonder how this would have

44:44

gone if anatomy before was about a black

44:47

woman jail Or Nicole

44:49

Hannah-jones about the stakes of our election We

44:52

have to figure out how to not just cover

44:54

Trump But all of the ways that

44:56

democracy is being eroded tune into the

44:58

amendment. Listen, wherever you get your podcast

45:03

Hey cast creators launch grow

45:05

and monetize the podcast everywhere

45:08

a cast calm History

45:13

is full of extraordinary people the

45:15

Tudors being just a handful in

45:18

my latest film on history hit we

45:20

meet Bess of Hardwick and go inside

45:22

the incredible house that she built a

45:25

house that defines the elegance and grandeur

45:27

of the Elizabethan age a House

45:29

fit for a woman who climbed to the

45:31

top of the Tudor social ladder To

45:33

find out more about the life of Bess

45:36

and many more fascinating figures from the past

45:38

Sign up via the link in the description

45:40

with the code Tudors for

45:42

an exclusive discount