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you get podcasts. Hey,

1:01

I'm Matt Katz. I'm a journalist at

1:03

WNYC who has the pleasure of calling

1:05

Kai Wright a colleague and friend. I'll

1:08

be sitting in for him on the broadcast

1:10

of Notes from America this coming Sunday, April

1:12

19th. I hope you'll join me

1:14

because we're opening the phones and inviting

1:16

people to take part in a conversation

1:18

that has been happening in my community

1:20

for many months now. We're

1:23

asking people to tell us, what does it

1:25

mean to be a Jewish American today? How

1:28

has the ongoing war exposed any

1:30

conflict or confusion or clarity

1:32

about that identity? And how

1:35

are you preparing to talk about it

1:37

or not at your Passover Seders this

1:39

week? You can share your

1:41

thoughts right now with Notes from America. Call or

1:43

leave us a text at 844-745-8255 or email notes

1:45

at wnyc.org. I would love

1:47

to have you for that live show

1:57

on Sunday. And now I'd like to

1:59

tell you about another... show I'm hosting,

2:01

it's a podcast called Inconceivable

2:03

Truth about a recent experience

2:05

I had tied to my own identity

2:07

as a Jewish man, as

2:09

a father, and as a son. The

2:12

first episode sets the stage for a journey

2:14

I've been on since I was a kid

2:17

and may continue to be on for a

2:19

long time. I'll share it with you now.

2:21

There are more episodes of Inconceivable Truth available

2:23

on your favorite audio app. Here's

2:26

episode one. This

2:29

podcast is intended for mature

2:31

audiences. Listener discretion

2:34

is advised. You

2:52

knew how to

2:54

read an analog clock

2:56

before anybody else of your age

2:58

because he was always late and

3:01

you would always look at the clock. You would know he's

3:03

supposed to come at two o'clock, two

3:05

o'clock came and he didn't come. This

3:15

might be the saddest thing I've ever

3:17

heard about myself. I

3:20

don't remember it exactly, but my mom

3:22

does. We'd be at home in

3:24

Queens and I'd be perched in front of this old

3:26

grandfather clock, watching the pendulum click

3:29

back and forth, waiting for

3:31

a man named Warren to arrive. One,

3:38

32, 230. But Warren didn't always show up and

3:41

when he did, he was very

3:43

late. This I

3:45

remember. Is

3:47

this me right after I was born? Is this like in

3:49

the hospital? Yeah, and that's

3:51

coming out of the station where I can where they didn't have

3:53

seat belts. So you were on my lap.

3:56

In the front seat. Who

4:01

took this picture? I guess Warren

4:03

took it. Warren

4:05

was the man I had been waiting for.

4:07

I called him Daddy back then. My

4:10

mom, Roberta, married Warren in 1973. I

4:14

arrived five years later. And

4:16

by the time I was a year and a half, they

4:19

were split, divorced. There's

4:23

dozens of pictures. There's no, at least

4:25

in this batch, there's no pictures of Warren. Did

4:28

you get rid of them? Mm-hmm. You

4:31

just threw them out. Mm-hmm. Sorry. I

4:33

don't know. When I was in

4:36

a sit of anger. Did you remember? There

4:39

were very few to begin with, and I

4:41

was putting these in an album, and he

4:43

didn't belong there. This is

4:45

just an arm. That's it. Oh, I'm brushing your teeth,

4:47

right? Yeah. I didn't...

4:50

That's it. That's it. That's

4:58

the only picture I have of Warren

5:00

ever. A big man arm

5:02

coming from outside the frame. We

5:04

all live together in an apartment that I have

5:06

no memory of. Then

5:09

one day, without telling Warren, my

5:11

mom just left. She

5:13

moved us out, first to my grandmother's

5:15

studio apartment, where my crib filled the

5:17

room, and then to an

5:19

apartment for just me and her. What

5:23

happened? We

5:25

just had

5:28

lots of fights about gambling

5:30

and about not

5:32

telling the truth about things, and

5:37

I said, that's it. There's no support. I

5:39

had no love for him, and

5:41

I had to get out. He

5:43

was gambling excessively

5:46

then, like the morning's

5:48

workers. Sneakingly gambling. Yeah. I mean,

5:50

I didn't know until I found that there's no

5:52

money, and then when I went back to work,

5:55

because I had to, I'm sure

5:57

you... I think you know this. I

6:00

called the first day at work from

6:02

a collection agency. I've

6:04

never had that in my life. And

6:07

I was talking about being embarrassed at school, and

6:12

they were going to garnish my salary because

6:17

I owed so much money, which I had

6:19

no idea. You

6:21

know, we had joined credit cards. And

6:23

I didn't see the bills, I

6:26

did not know. I

6:28

was busy trying to raise a baby, and I did

6:30

not know about other things that were going

6:32

on. I kind

6:35

of thought of a little bit, but every

6:39

time something came up, I believed him or

6:42

tried to believe him, and then I just had it.

6:44

And that's when I left. She

6:54

was flat broke when she left. Warren

6:56

had racked up so much debt on their joint

6:58

credit card and stiffed her on child support. We're

7:00

talking tens of thousands of dollars that he owed

7:03

her, 1980s dollars. But

7:05

a piece of Warren was still a little bit

7:08

in the picture, coming to see me once in

7:10

a while, even if he was late, enough

7:12

of a presence to loom in my mind

7:15

as my father, but not

7:17

enough for me to really know who my

7:19

father was. And so

7:21

I wondered, and I watched that clock, and

7:23

I waited for the rest of him to

7:25

come back into the picture. What

7:37

I didn't know then was that I would

7:39

spend my life waiting for my father. I

7:42

looked for decades, and only after those

7:44

decades would I understand why something never

7:46

felt right, that there

7:48

was a mystery at the heart of who my

7:50

father really was. And

7:53

now, after years of tracking

7:55

down clues, I'm so, so close.

7:58

I almost have answers. From

8:15

Wave Land and Rococo Punch,

8:17

this is Inconceivable Truth,

8:19

I'm Matt Katz. My

8:36

name has always been Matt, or Matthew

8:38

as my mom called me, but

8:41

my last name has not always been

8:43

Katz, and the reason why

8:45

is all wrapped up in what happened

8:48

shortly after Warren and Roberta divorced. It's

8:51

the early 80s, Queens, and Roberta is a single

8:53

mom, it's just me and her. So

8:56

she joins this group for single

8:58

people with kids, parents without partners. The

9:01

group was for parents to meet

9:03

partners, but she says she

9:05

didn't really go for herself. She

9:08

thought it'd be good for me to at least be

9:10

around men, dads. She lost her

9:12

own father when she was six, has

9:14

no memory of him. I

9:17

really went for you because there

9:20

would be parks, there would be baseball,

9:22

there would be activities, and there would be

9:24

men. And I thought it would be good

9:26

for you. So that's why I

9:29

did that. Was

9:31

that because you didn't have a father

9:34

and you wanted it? Yeah, I think. And you were

9:36

concerned that I wouldn't have... So you would

9:38

go to these things and then there'd be men for me to

9:41

throw a ball with her later? Right, exactly.

9:45

But I did go to a couple of dances,

9:49

which would be for me, socially. And

9:52

she went to these group conversations for

9:54

single parents called rap discussions. It's not

9:56

like rap that we talk about today,

9:59

okay? You have

10:01

drinks or coffee and Danish or whatever, and

10:03

you get to meet other people. Sometimes

10:06

you meet women for yourself, you

10:08

know, friends, and you meet potential

10:11

dating partners. There was

10:13

a potential dating partner in the room one night. Medium

10:16

build, medium height, pretty much all of his

10:18

hair, plus the warmest smile in

10:20

the world. His name? Richard.

10:24

I met this meeting in Queens,

10:27

and the door opens and your mother

10:29

walks in, and I

10:32

said, that's a

10:34

beautiful woman. And

10:37

the only seat available was

10:40

next to me. Well, first,

10:42

when I walked in, this was an apartment

10:44

in Queens, in Forest Hills, and

10:46

the first thing I did is I walked in and I

10:48

see these people sitting around, and

10:50

I'm looking around and I'm saying, A,

10:54

they're too old, or

10:56

B, I've dated them. C,

10:58

I have to get the hell out of here. D,

11:02

my mother is babysitting. I have

11:04

a free babysitter. And

11:08

E, it doesn't look right.

11:10

I mean, everybody's sitting, a new

11:12

person comes in, and then she turns on

11:14

her heels and walks away. It just didn't

11:16

look right. So when

11:18

Richard tapped on the empty chair next to him, she

11:21

walked over. She sits down and we

11:23

start talking. And

11:25

what I remember of that night is

11:30

some of the other people

11:33

were expressing attitudes

11:35

towards their children and

11:38

their ex-spouses, and

11:40

towards life, which just

11:42

didn't resonate with me. Whatever

11:46

the discussion was, because his memory is worse

11:48

than mine, we do not remember per se,

11:50

but we were the only ones that were

11:53

in agreement. And we were

11:55

sitting there discussing it quietly and laughing

11:57

like hell. very,

12:00

very similar outlooks

12:02

about life. I

12:05

was lucky enough, she gave me

12:07

her number when I asked and I made a date.

12:10

And then this shouldn't be for your

12:12

ears, but he liked my Jordache jeans.

12:15

I fit into these sexy jeans

12:17

and he remembered that. He

12:19

keeps talking about those jeans that I

12:21

cannot wear anymore. But

12:23

between that and the discussion that

12:25

we had, that's how it started.

12:29

So you were also like shopping for a father

12:31

for me. Right. Where you got one?

12:33

I got one. I did, I did. I

12:39

was in love from the beginning. I

12:42

had dated other women after

12:45

I was divorced. And

12:49

there was no one that I would want to

12:52

spend my life with. And

12:54

we both, we had a sort of an agreement

12:59

that at our age, two years of dating, two years is enough

13:01

time to date. And

13:03

I made sure before two years came that I said,

13:05

would you marry me? We

13:13

were at the house at your apartment in Queens

13:17

and we're having dinner. And I had to go home.

13:21

And my very, very romantic proposal was,

13:28

darn it, I can't go home. I want to be

13:30

with you. I don't want to leave. Would you marry me? Very,

13:33

very romantic. And

13:36

she said, I have to think about it. Thankfully,

13:42

she said yes. And

13:45

I was like, I'm sorry. The

13:50

rest is history. And

13:54

of course I proposed to you. I

13:56

remember we were by the river in Brooklyn.

14:00

I don't know what we were doing in Brooklyn. And

14:02

then like, mom walked away

14:04

to buy me an ice cream or

14:06

something. And I think

14:08

that's where you did it. The

14:10

way you were being brought up by mom and

14:13

your personality and just, you know, the

14:15

two of you, just, I

14:17

wanted you part of my life and I wanted to make

14:19

sure you wanted me as part of your life. How

14:23

do you say, I'm moving

14:26

in, I'm gonna be with you. As

14:30

you grow up, I'd ask

14:32

you, because

14:34

I know a lot of children resent

14:38

the spouse of the parent they're

14:41

living with. And

14:43

I didn't want that. And I was at that

14:45

point that was already showing you a lot of

14:47

love. So

14:49

I asked you and you, I

14:51

think the look on your face is what is

14:54

he talking about? But you

14:56

remembered. I remembered. It's like one of

14:58

my earliest memories. I

15:01

think you basically asked me permission.

15:03

Is it okay if- Can I marry your

15:05

mom and become part of your family? And-

15:10

Such a menchie thing to do. Menchie

15:14

not, I mean, it's like, how do you,

15:17

I don't see any other way. You had to be part of

15:19

it. I

15:24

was definitely part of it. I was

15:26

the ring bearer at their tiny wedding at a

15:28

hall off Central Park in January, 1983, when

15:32

I was four and a half. And in

15:34

short order, a move out of the apartment and

15:36

into a house in Queens with a yard on

15:38

both sides. And I had

15:40

a happy childhood there. My

15:42

mom and Richard both had solid government

15:44

jobs. He worked at the Food

15:47

and Drug Administration. She was a

15:49

New York City public school teacher, teaching kids how to

15:51

read for more than 30 years. So

15:54

I had a stepfather now. Richard threw a

15:56

baseball with me, taught me how to ride a bike, told

15:58

me he loved me. But I

16:00

also had Warren, my birth father, still

16:02

fading out and then into that picture.

16:09

When he did come by and take me

16:11

out for the day, we'd do things that

16:13

even I knew. I'm like five. We're not

16:15

normal. We'd sometimes go to the

16:17

off-track bedding parlor so we could wager on the

16:20

horses. I'm standing in a pile

16:22

of bedding slips up to my ankles, cloud

16:24

of cigarette smoke hovering over me. One

16:28

time he took me to a zoo in Queens,

16:30

a little place, more of a petting zoo than

16:32

anything else. Instead of going to

16:34

the entrance, he led me off to the

16:36

side. He lifted the bottom of the fence.

16:38

He told me to crawl under and so

16:41

I did. He then went to the

16:43

front, paid admission for himself and met

16:45

me inside. He

16:48

saved a couple of bucks, I guess. Outside

16:53

of those experiences, which felt pretty off, my childhood

16:55

seemed normal. I loved the Mets, Matchbox cars, swings

16:57

that didn't move all that fast. I

17:00

had a blonde mop top, hazel eyes, skinny and smiley. And

17:03

I was probably the shyest little boy in Queens.

17:08

You stood behind me because you were so shy with the Kermit the Frog puppet and

17:10

you were behind me

17:15

and you just wiggled the Kermit the

17:17

Frog puppet. Yeah, so you were very shy in

17:19

some ways. In other ways,

17:21

at the age of four, I would ask you to

17:23

go to the candy store to get the times, Sunday

17:25

times, because

17:29

it wasn't until I was about to get

17:32

the candy store. I was about to get

17:34

the candy store Sunday

17:36

times because it wasn't delivered that day or

17:39

whatever. And you had to

17:41

wait until somebody was strong enough to open

17:43

up the door because you couldn't open the door,

17:45

but you got the paper. I really wanted to

17:47

read the week in review. Oh, sure. That

17:54

shy kid who bravely waddled into the

17:56

candy store to grab my mom's newspaper

17:59

Was also holding. The Onto An inner

18:01

thoughts of sorts. I.

18:03

Didn't talk about this with anyone,

18:06

but I remember sort of

18:08

obsessing over war and like what

18:10

was his deal. Why was

18:12

he such a dick? But

18:19

those questions about who my father

18:21

was. Turns out I was in

18:23

asking the right thing. It off,

18:25

I mean twenty years. I've now

18:28

worked as a reporter, newspapers, radio

18:30

of their plan, impaired recorder, the

18:32

whole thing, asking people questions. Twenty

18:34

thousand that kept Matt cats And

18:36

thank you again for being here.

18:38

Public face A reporter Mack current

18:40

swimmer Big Mortimer. I've

18:43

ask questions the politicians and police chiefs

18:45

a once as questions the new to

18:47

set a nudist colony new Jersey. Turn

18:50

into a front page story. During.

18:52

The Us War in Afghanistan. I embedded with

18:55

the military to ask questions about what in

18:57

the world was happening over there. But.

19:02

Now I'm working on the

19:05

hardest story I've ever worked

19:07

on. And it's about my

19:09

father, fathers. And the

19:11

story I got started on almost forty years

19:13

ago when I was little kid. A

19:18

question first and foremost loot

19:20

the truth and and. Efficiency

19:26

is ridiculous, but if you stick with

19:29

me a promising he mixes. How

19:32

did I can to exist? When.

19:40

I was born. We all lived in

19:42

the Bronx. Warren had a variety of

19:44

jobs from toll collector to cabdriver. His

19:46

most steady work seem to be as

19:49

a funeral director teacher. He taught a

19:51

class for people who were trying to

19:53

get their funeral director licenses. i

19:56

saw him even at a young

19:58

age as interesting Maybe because

20:00

his lack of consistent presence made

20:03

him mysterious. He was tall

20:05

or he seemed tall to me, bald

20:07

with a pot belly and a dark goatee. He

20:10

talked to me about sports, took me to the

20:13

good chocolate chip cookie shop in Manhattan. The

20:15

one and only time I went to his apartment,

20:17

there were dirty dishes in the sink, something that

20:20

didn't happen in the house I grew up in.

20:23

Dishes in my father's sink seemed reckless but

20:25

maybe kind of cool. He

20:27

seemed to have access to a world

20:29

very different from my own that seemed

20:32

darker, more intriguing. He

20:35

had this diner that he'd go to. They'd

20:37

open up early for him and the other regulars so

20:39

they could all sit there and chain smoke and read

20:42

the New York Post. He was there

20:44

every morning. Meanwhile though, I didn't

20:47

even have his phone number. After

20:49

a visit, I never knew when I'd see him

20:51

again. Right, and that wasn't

20:53

our doing. That was

20:55

his doing. He would make arrangements

20:57

and then cancel them. Like

21:00

arrangements to pick me up? Yeah.

21:02

And since we never

21:04

knew where he lived, we

21:07

weren't too happy with that. Like

21:10

you never had his address? No, he wouldn't

21:12

give it to us. And he

21:15

didn't like me asking him where he was

21:17

taking you. And I had a right to

21:19

know where you were. And then I said

21:22

to him, I have

21:25

to know where you are. I have

21:27

to be able to contact you. He

21:29

didn't like that. A couple

21:31

of times we followed him

21:34

because I was worried about that

21:36

he was going to abduct you. I was really very scared

21:38

about that because I didn't know where he was living. So

21:42

my mom is scared he's going to abduct

21:44

me. But the final straw for

21:46

me, as Richard remembers it, was

21:49

how he didn't send me promised birthday gifts. Richard

21:52

remembers that Warren was supposed to come by

21:54

and give me a remote-controlled car. I

21:56

loved those things. And

21:59

then called up and cancelled because he didn't have

22:01

the money to buy it because he gambled

22:03

it away. Oh wow.

22:05

I think. And so that's

22:07

what I was really pissed about? That's what you were,

22:10

that he lied to you. You know, you

22:12

finally figured out the man is a

22:14

liar. And you have

22:17

a huge sense of

22:20

truthfulness. This

22:23

was all starting to feel not right to me.

22:25

This relationship with a father who wouldn't give

22:27

me birthday presents or tell me where he lived

22:30

and as loving and full as

22:32

my home life was Warren's inconsistent

22:34

presence in my life. The

22:37

fact that I was watching that damn clock, I

22:40

was sad about it and I kept it in.

22:42

I opened a phone book sometimes secretly look up

22:44

his name, see if I could find him. It

22:48

was frustrating. I started to be like,

22:51

fuck this. I asked

22:53

my mom if I could change my last

22:55

name from Warren's last name

22:58

to cats, which was Richard and

23:00

my mom's new last name. I

23:02

had no siblings with Warren's last name,

23:04

no close relatives. I wanted to

23:06

be a cat. December

23:09

15th, 1985, I changed my last

23:11

name. Do

23:14

you remember how that came

23:16

about? Yes,

23:19

you asked me because you would

23:21

go to school and

23:23

your parents name was cats and

23:26

yours wasn't. You

23:28

felt, can I have your

23:30

name? I suppose you

23:33

were thinking, you're part of my family.

23:35

I should have the same name. Yeah, I

23:38

didn't have anybody else who

23:40

was very present in my world with that

23:42

last name. It felt lonely

23:46

and awkward. Yeah. When

23:48

Warren called, I still called him

23:50

daddy. Maybe I thought changing my

23:52

last name would scare him straight, force him

23:54

to play that father role, but

23:57

it didn't. It did the opposite. He

23:59

was pissed. about the name

24:01

change and he told me so. He

24:03

drove over one day in his red station

24:05

wagon. I remember he

24:07

came over and went

24:10

out to the car with you, had

24:12

you out in the car, and

24:15

was sort of screaming because he

24:17

was sure that we had instigated you

24:19

to want the name change. He

24:22

didn't realize he had instigated you

24:24

to want the name change because

24:27

he lied to you and you didn't want

24:29

to even know him. I

24:32

mean I did want to know him but I

24:35

didn't really know him because I

24:38

would see him so irregularly.

24:42

Something else was happening. I

24:45

think I started to internalize this tension

24:47

between my parents, an

24:49

awareness that my father Warren was

24:51

also hurting my mother. I

24:53

remember the look on her face, the way she'd

24:56

literally bite her tongue when she talked to him.

24:58

Whenever she tried to schedule a visit or get

25:00

money he owed her. And

25:02

so one night he called when my mom

25:05

and Richard were out. My

25:07

grandmother Gam lived with us and was

25:09

hanging out downstairs watching her stories. I

25:12

answered the phone. It was him. I

25:15

was eight I think and I was upset.

25:18

Why hadn't he called? Why didn't I have

25:21

his phone number? Where was he? Who

25:23

was he? I told

25:25

him and I remember this so well that

25:28

I was going to sick the FBI on him.

25:31

I don't know it was the 80s. Me

25:33

and my friends used to play a spy

25:35

game called KGB versus FBI and I wanted

25:37

him investigated. Not for a crime but

25:40

so I can understand why he was the

25:42

way he was. Warren

25:44

hung up on me. He

25:47

didn't call again. WNYC

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27:36

I was 9 years old, with months

27:38

and months of no contact whatsoever from

27:40

Warren, I remember my mom saying to

27:42

me, if something happened to

27:45

her, if she died, then I'd

27:47

end up moving in with Warren,

27:49

my biological father, instead of Richard,

27:51

my stepdad. Warren

27:53

would have custody. He'd be responsible

27:55

for me. He'd be my only parent. guy

28:00

you don't even know where he lives what

28:02

his phone number is he'd be

28:04

responsible for taking care of you there

28:08

was a solution though she told me if Richard

28:11

adopts you he would take care

28:13

of you he'd be with you always

28:15

I wanted

28:17

you as my kid legally and

28:22

legally that he

28:24

couldn't come back and ask for something

28:26

else joint custody for instance

28:31

he didn't earn having you

28:33

as his son I did I

28:35

worked at earning that because you

28:37

were worth it and I

28:40

wanted that and

28:47

so I agreed we took things

28:49

to the next level symbolically and officially

28:51

I took the day off from

28:53

school got on a tie and went before a judge

28:56

in the conference room legal paperwork

28:58

notifying Warren about the pending adoption

29:00

had been sent to my grandparents

29:02

house in California the only address

29:04

we had to reach him but

29:06

Warren made no formal objection his

29:09

mother later told me they threw the envelope in

29:11

the trash without opening it and

29:15

so the judge signed off on the adoption

29:17

a new birth certificate was issued gone

29:20

was Warren Richard Katz

29:22

was Matthew Katz's father and

29:31

so I gained a father but also

29:33

grandparents Richard's parents Nathaniel and Ethel Katz

29:36

and an aunt and uncle and my

29:38

first first cousins and the

29:41

best part I got siblings which as an

29:43

only child I'd always wanted Richard

29:45

had two daughters from his first

29:47

marriage Sarah Sally they were eight

29:49

and twelve years older than me already off

29:51

to college we didn't live together but

29:54

I still saw them as my sisters you

29:57

all my child has Sarah

30:00

The and Sally will my children. And.

30:02

You get equal share of they'll Love. I

30:07

appreciate that. I feel

30:09

I saw that. A.

30:12

Couple of years later and nineteen Ninety,

30:14

we left Queens and moved a mile

30:16

and a half, but a world away

30:18

from Queens Borough of New York City.

30:21

The. Great Neck, one of the most

30:23

affluent towns in the country. A quintessential

30:25

Long Island suburb. I. Still, pronounce

30:27

it with two syllables Long Island. You.

30:30

Member Want to restore hanging out. Ah,

30:33

I think we are forced to ever really lived across

30:35

the street. In Greenock everyone's parents

30:37

seem to still be married and no

30:40

one's mom seem to work. I was

30:42

petrified starts school there. it was middle

30:44

school six the race knows. Coming in

30:46

seventh grade everyone was gonna have more

30:49

expensive sneakers and I knew no one.

30:51

but there was a boy who lives

30:53

across the street from my new house.

30:55

His name was evil on. I

30:58

remember being very excited because you are

31:00

smaller than me briefly. ever been cited

31:02

Get a catcher's mitt As is very

31:04

strange for Jewish boy cancer shit. three

31:07

years has got a big big guy

31:09

rare you are not of his men

31:11

are friendlier approachable you into music you

31:13

have been is the proper tongue tied

31:15

up Google you can see village or

31:18

from your window I could. So basically

31:20

you had a cardboard cutout of Billy

31:22

Joel I think it's up from like

31:24

a C D store your own devices

31:27

and it. With mensa i think old

31:29

albums on it's they know they had whatever of

31:31

the treated sewage out with huge huge stack it

31:33

on their that was used for the store i

31:35

somehow you got your house was also with four

31:37

hundred you do that my mom like what do

31:40

you talk about when i breathe adjunct are out

31:42

there is no way that would have been in

31:44

my mother's car and then on to my room

31:46

but somehow you got that to your house yeah

31:48

ah and I'm a was in your window and

31:51

it was constantly staring at me with very creepy

31:53

because I know you're looking at me or was

31:55

do a job right now are we used to

31:57

talk. On walkie talkies remember that reason.

32:00

flash our lights and I would sing. Our

32:02

rooms face each other on the street so

32:04

if I wanted to talk to you I'd

32:06

flash my lights. But I would have to

32:09

have been looking out the window. Yeah but

32:11

I always thought you were looking at me because

32:13

there's Billy Jones. I'm like oh there's Matt let's

32:15

flash the lights. He's not answering you know. And

32:17

then we turn on the walkie-talkie which was

32:20

a little ridiculous because we also had phones.

32:22

We did have phones. We also had phones

32:24

in our room. I don't know why we

32:26

thought our own lives. Do

32:30

you remember me talking about

32:32

my then birth father? So

32:34

okay I've been thinking about this. I

32:37

find it very interesting that you still to

32:39

this day say he's your birth father. There's

32:42

no word in the English language to

32:44

describe this person. But that's how you always refer

32:46

to him as your birth father and you know

32:49

a lot more now than you did. But yeah

32:51

or I would call him bio dad. Yeah I

32:53

will I remember you at some point when you

32:55

were about 16 17 you're like I want

32:57

to find my birth father. I

33:00

hadn't heard from Warren since that time he hung up on

33:02

me when I was eight. But I

33:04

never stopped thinking about him wondering about him

33:06

and wanting to find him again. It was

33:09

something I had to broach with my mom

33:11

and Richard. I

33:14

think they supported

33:16

it but maybe didn't understand why I

33:19

needed to go and find this deadbeat.

33:21

I think they have they understood why

33:23

you wanted to do it as part

33:25

of your whole life actually not your

33:28

whole life but a large part of

33:30

your life starting from middle school onwards

33:32

has been about what's my identity who

33:34

am I and the large part

33:36

of your identity is who is my birth father

33:39

who's my father. I mean clearly

33:41

Richard your father I mean he

33:43

basically helped raise you but who's

33:45

your who are you and

33:47

that's for a lot of people they

33:49

know who they are when they're from their kids you

33:51

know like I knew who I was my dad was

33:53

my dad my mom was my mom I grew up

33:55

in Great Neck I'm gonna be a doctor I was

33:57

a doctor that's who I am. You're

34:01

constantly like a chameleon. You're always

34:03

changing. Who's my father? Who's

34:06

my father for you changed basically

34:08

every decade for you. You never

34:11

really knew who your father was. Right. And

34:13

I was drawn to the search

34:16

for him for some reason. I

34:21

made friends quickly in Great Neck. This

34:23

was pre-internet, so when I wasn't on

34:25

the walkie-talkie with Ilan, I was

34:27

on the phone talking with friends. Friends

34:30

like Kelly. We would like

34:34

listen to Billy Joel and you'd fall asleep. Like in

34:36

the wee hours, we'd be on the phone. You'd

34:40

go to sleep on the phone with me and we'd be like listening to

34:42

Billy Joel. Oh

34:44

my God. Yeah. Yeah.

34:46

I remember being on

34:49

the phone silent. Yeah. Like

34:51

we would just be on the phone, quiet,

34:53

sleeping, whatever. Yeah. It

34:55

was like having a sleepover. Junior

34:58

year in high school, Kelly would end up

35:00

playing this key role in what would become

35:02

really a lifelong search for my father. Kelly

35:05

and I talked about music and sex

35:07

and girls and boys and teachers and

35:09

parents. We

35:11

talked like in

35:14

a deep, you know, high school, but still

35:16

in a deep way and about like for

35:18

hours and hours. Yeah. I

35:21

remember you divulging like serious

35:25

shit to me. Yeah.

35:28

You can say stuff. I'm curious

35:30

what I divulged. Yeah. I

35:32

mean, I don't know. It's

35:35

fine. But like eating. Oh

35:38

yeah. And I, you

35:40

know, that was like, yeah, I struggled

35:43

so much with that. I mean,

35:45

so many. Like I remember talking to you like

35:48

in the throes of those experiences. Yeah.

35:52

Wow. I remember feeling, being

35:54

like heavy. Yeah.

35:57

Cause I didn't know what to say. You're the trusted guy

35:59

for. girls to talk to. Yeah.

36:02

And there were like friendships that I had with these

36:05

girls in high school that were, you

36:08

know, deep and

36:10

like meaningful. Yeah. And

36:14

probably I guess, I don't know,

36:16

life-changing. I mean, life-forming, like they,

36:19

you know, make me as a

36:21

person. Yeah, gives you an understanding of what

36:25

women go through and yeah.

36:33

But like, you were just like fun-loving and light, which

36:38

is interesting because you had a lot

36:40

of stuff, you know, family and

36:43

that kind of thing. But I

36:46

just remember you like smiling a lot and

36:49

just being happy. One

36:53

of the things I would talk about with

36:55

Kelly was Warren. I was

36:57

getting to the point where I just couldn't hold

37:00

in any more. I didn't know why he had cut me out

37:02

of his life like this. Junior

37:05

year, I was playing Cats

37:07

in the Cradle on the piano, you

37:10

know the song, you gonna

37:12

sing it? But it's

37:14

about, you know, fathers and sons, obviously. So

37:17

my mom was sitting there on the couch

37:19

and she was listening and reading the paper or

37:21

something. And I asked her, do you ever

37:23

wonder where Warren is? Like, for the father,

37:25

she's like, I do. I

37:28

have his

37:30

brother's phone number in California

37:34

if you wanted to, you know, try

37:36

to reach him through his brother.

37:39

So as I remember, it was

37:41

a few weeks after that, I went to Junior Prom,

37:44

came home from the Junior Prom and I called the

37:46

number because it was like three

37:48

hours earlier. And it

37:51

was disconnected. And then I called 411, like

37:53

the operator old school, you know, and he

37:55

gave me the phone number and

37:58

a woman answered. turned

38:00

out she was my new aunt. They had intervening

38:03

years married

38:05

and she seemed

38:09

confused that I had no contact with

38:12

my birth father because he had been telling

38:15

his family that he

38:17

was in contact with me. Wow. That

38:20

my mom wouldn't let me

38:22

see the rest of the family but

38:26

I was into math, which was bullshit.

38:29

I wanted to go to the University

38:31

of Michigan like he made up all

38:33

this nonsense. Later

38:39

that night after midnight on the East

38:41

Coast, my uncle Mitch called me. He

38:44

was really nice but there was this

38:46

disconnect. He didn't seem to understand what

38:48

I was saying that I had not

38:50

seen Warren since I was eight years

38:52

old. Warren had

38:54

been telling his family all of these

38:56

fabricated stories about me and my life.

39:00

I tried to tell Mitch Warren doesn't know

39:02

anything about me because I haven't

39:04

spoken to him since I was a little boy. Mitch

39:07

said, well, we haven't seen you because your

39:09

mom hasn't let us. I'm like, I don't

39:12

even have Warren's phone number and

39:15

that's why I'm calling. Can I have his number? Sorry,

39:18

Mitch said I can't do that but I can

39:20

ask him to call you. Won't

39:23

give me his phone number. Why all the

39:25

secrecy? Why all the hiding? I'm his son. Can

39:28

I have my father's phone number? But

39:30

I didn't have a choice. If I wanted

39:32

to get in touch with Warren, I had

39:35

to do it his way. So

39:38

gave him my phone number and

39:42

I had my own line, my own answering machine. So

39:46

I feel

39:48

like there might've been a couple of hang ups on

39:51

the answering machine over the next couple of days when

39:54

I wasn't home and I was like, is that him?

39:57

And then I picked up One

39:59

day and. This man and other. Side

40:02

of the line says I'm. It's

40:04

warren. Where do you want? And

40:08

I had a very terrible first

40:11

conversation with him like ice. I

40:13

remember immediately after it, Nadia remembering

40:15

everything that happened. I know he

40:17

talks shit about my grandmother, my

40:19

mom's mom who I was close

40:21

with before she died. And

40:25

I know he was like. Obnoxious.

40:27

And. Skeptical. About what I want:

40:30

isn't he on my mom switch money? child support

40:32

that he. Sure,

40:34

he'd that was wrapped up in his

40:36

reaction. I'm.

40:39

But. It was. I was terrible and

40:41

I must have then. Talk

40:43

to you about it because he.

40:46

Kept. Calling. And

40:49

eventually we started talking

40:52

about. Blade. Or

40:54

things like specific like baseball. And.

40:58

We. Could have like a normal

41:00

conversation. And then

41:03

I'm. We.

41:05

Made a plan to meet. Turned.

41:09

Out Warren lived in Queens that even

41:11

a fifteen minute drive away from my

41:13

house. We decided to meet at a

41:15

Bennett Guns restaurant. He. Told me

41:17

what he'd be wearing so I could

41:19

recognize him. It was the spring of

41:22

Nineteen Ninety Four. They. Didn't

41:24

have my driver's license yet, but Kelly did

41:26

and I most definitely didn't want my mom

41:28

to drive me to see him. I mean,

41:31

to awkward. So. Kelly

41:33

drove me over. Did. You wait in

41:35

the car. You must have asked.

41:37

To see that cell. Are

41:39

you. To. Meeting you would

41:41

have waited in the car. It's like

41:44

amazing You did that! Wow. Thank.

41:46

You still accomplish this

41:48

is so sweet. You're

41:51

like my liver fairly close. Yes,

41:53

he analysis a big deal, says

41:55

I'm like some little thing. I

41:58

mean, I remember walking up and. And he was

42:00

there who was smoking a Marlboro light 100. And

42:03

he was wearing a members only jacket. And

42:09

I know we didn't hug. I

42:12

think it's possible

42:14

we shook hands, but I actually think I

42:16

remember being strange because we kind of said

42:19

hello. And then he turned and started walking to

42:22

the door. And then we walked into the restaurant.

42:25

Like I don't know if there was any

42:28

physical contact when we

42:30

first saw each other. Maybe a handshake,

42:33

but no hugging. That weird. Can you

42:35

imagine not seeing your child for eight years and not hugging

42:37

them? I mean, in order

42:39

to not see your child for eight years, you

42:42

got to be pretty well disconnected from everything.

42:45

Right. But then

42:47

we had a pretty good meal. Yeah. It

42:50

was like it was not I

42:52

don't I don't remember any being any like drama

42:56

or tension really.

43:00

And then I think he gave me a little money. And

43:03

then I felt some degree of like

43:06

closure and completion afterwards, which is probably

43:09

why that's what I saw from you

43:11

was was that. Yeah.

43:15

Yeah. That

43:18

was probably what was on my face when I was walking back

43:20

to the car. Yeah. Like

43:22

a million pounds of, you

43:24

know, of weight release, just relief, you

43:26

know, and like you look

43:30

happy. So

43:39

for the next several years, we

43:41

had a okay relationship.

43:44

He flew me out to California to

43:48

meet or reunite with my

43:51

grandparents and my uncle

43:53

and new aunt and two

43:56

first cousins. And

44:00

I had a pretty good trip as

44:02

I remember it. And then I would

44:05

see him occasionally. I had his

44:07

phone number. He would call me. We

44:10

had a regular phone interaction. He

44:13

visited me in college

44:15

once. I was

44:17

living in a fraternity house. It was like

44:19

the morning after a party. And

44:22

I remember not having to worry about

44:24

the crushed natty

44:26

light cans all over the place because it

44:28

was like a judgment-free

44:30

situation with him because the

44:33

bar was so low

44:35

in terms of how he was the

44:37

father that I never, in a

44:40

way, it was a lot less pressure hanging

44:42

out with him than my parents, who I wanted

44:46

to live up

44:48

to the standard they helped me. Because

44:50

they were actual parents. We

44:54

went to brunch and I bummed a cigarette

44:56

from him. And

44:59

then on the way back, he

45:01

bought me a pack. And

45:04

then he says to me, do you ever

45:07

wonder why all of your

45:09

negative qualities you seem to get

45:11

from me? And

45:13

I'm like, I do wonder that, actually.

45:15

Because he was unlike my mother

45:19

and Richard. He had an edge about him.

45:21

He lived off the grid. He

45:24

was shady. He

45:27

had a way with

45:29

strangers. He'd be the guy sitting

45:32

next to him on a bus stop who could

45:34

chat you up. And he'd be

45:36

charmed. But also, he was

45:38

somebody who. He was like a bad boy. He was like,

45:41

yeah, he was like a bad boy. And so obviously, at

45:43

16, 17, 18, 19, 20, I

45:45

related. I

45:48

connected with that. There

45:56

was still plenty of shady shit. If I met

45:58

him at a restaurant, I might give him. him

46:00

a ride home afterward, but he'd have me drop

46:02

him off at the end of his block so

46:04

I wouldn't know his address. Things

46:08

would eventually sour again, badly.

46:12

He would once again fade out of the picture, and

46:14

I'd be left wondering about him, wondering about

46:16

his family and who they were and who

46:18

he was. I

46:23

felt like I still didn't really know anything

46:25

about my father. What was

46:27

the truth about Warren? What are the

46:29

secrets I can't access? My

46:32

whole life, my head swirled with

46:34

questions, and once I started investigating,

46:36

I learned, turns

46:39

out, there is something there.

46:42

There is a reason things don't

46:44

add up. There is something about

46:46

my past that I never knew.

46:49

The answers would turn out to be

46:51

way weirder, more interesting,

46:54

and more personally intense than

46:57

anything I've ever investigated before. Coming

47:14

up on this season of Inconceivable Truth.

47:17

I knew there was something that someone wasn't

47:19

telling me, and she said

47:21

to me, there's a secret.

47:25

That was the hand-married Ellie Lynch. Most of them do go to America, actually. If

47:27

they have the right family, it's, ah, that's

47:30

it. Finding

47:33

the truth, it's not what you want it to be.

47:36

If you can deal with that kind of stuff, then,

47:38

jean them. The

47:41

DNA is the truth. Everything else is

47:43

just a story. Never

47:46

in even years would I

47:48

have thought that this is how

47:50

this occurred. Inconceivable

48:04

Truth is a production of Waveland

48:06

and Rococo Punch. I'm writer

48:08

and host Matt Katz. The

48:10

story editor is Erica Lance, mixing by

48:13

James Trout. Emily Forman

48:15

is our producer. Natalie White is our

48:17

intern. Our executive producers

48:19

are Jason Hoke at Waveland and

48:21

John Perotti and Jessica Alpert at

48:24

Rococo Punch. For

48:26

photos and more details on the series,

48:29

follow at Waveland Media on Instagram, X,

48:31

or Facebook. And you can reach

48:33

out via email at podcasts

48:35

at Waveland.media. That's

48:37

Waveland. W-A-V-L-A-N-D.

48:41

If you like this series, please leave us

48:43

a review and don't forget to tell a

48:46

friend or relative. I'm Matt

48:48

Katz. Thanks for listening. How are you feeling? Good.

48:51

Good. Good. Good.

48:54

Good. Good. Okay.

48:58

I feel drained. Sorry.

49:01

I shouldn't have

49:03

had pizzas laying on my stomach. Okay,

49:05

let's take naps. Oh,

49:08

God. The

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living room is where you make life's

49:14

most beautiful memories. But your sofa shouldn't

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to clean. Shop the high performance

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furniture in store online at ashley.com.

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Ashley for the love of home.