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0:08

The trauma of the Hamas attack

0:11

and the global impacts that will likely follow

0:13

has inspired a certain historical

0:16

analogy.

0:16

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0:26

What does a brighter future for you look like in this

0:28

town? I think it's hard to think of a future

0:30

when people haven't really accepted

0:33

or acknowledged the past. When

0:35

I was growing up here, I am Osage,

0:38

and I didn't know about the murders until

0:40

David Grant's book came out.

0:42

They didn't want to talk about it, and we never understood.

0:45

But we do now. And then the people who are

0:47

non-Osages that lived here either didn't know or they

0:50

were complicit at the time. It was a

0:52

nice-looking little town. There

0:55

was lots of money. A lot of the money was, of

0:57

course, siphoned off from Osages and built

1:00

by white people.

1:01

They didn't even really consider us human

1:03

the way they killed us off and poisoned

1:05

us. So maybe that movie

1:07

is the beginning to some healing. How

1:09

can you learn from this and

1:12

encourage

1:12

all of us to be better people?

1:33

It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome

1:36

to the show. And

1:38

a special shout-out to listeners joining us

1:40

for the first time this week from KMUW

1:43

in Wichita, Kansas. Great to have you in

1:45

the community.

1:46

Martin Scorsese's latest epic

1:49

film hit theaters this weekend. The

1:51

Killers of the Flower Moon gives the Hollywood treatment to

1:53

a very real and painful history. The

1:56

film tells the story of the murder of a huge

1:59

number of Osages.

1:59

the Osage citizens in the early 20th century. During

2:02

that time, the Osage were among the wealthiest people

2:05

in the world because of oil underneath their

2:07

reservation. White people in Oklahoma

2:09

wanted access to that wealth, and they

2:11

began to target the Osage in a sprawling

2:14

conspiracy to steal it through marriage

2:16

and murder. The film is based

2:18

on a book by journalist David Grand, which was

2:21

itself a sensation when it was published

2:23

five years ago. It's part true

2:25

crime, part history, part incredible

2:27

narrative nonfiction that is

2:29

now likely an Oscar vehicle for some

2:31

of Hollywood's biggest names. So this

2:33

week, in partnership with our friends at KOSU

2:36

in Oklahoma, we're gonna ask Osage

2:38

citizens how they're processing this moment, what

2:41

it means to have this difficult history excavated

2:43

and dramatized for the

2:45

whole country, for the world. What about

2:48

that feels useful and healing, and what

2:50

doesn't? I'm joined first by

2:52

Damon Waters, who is an Osage and Ponca

2:54

citizen. He's an actor and filmmaker

2:56

working on his own documentary about Fairfax, Oklahoma,

2:59

where much of the story takes place. Damon

3:02

is one of many Osage citizens who were involved

3:04

in Killers of the Flower Moon in one way or another, and

3:07

his own family was touched by the history the film

3:09

depicts. Damon, thanks for

3:11

coming on the show. Hi, thanks for having

3:13

me. So you

3:16

had a role in the film, as I said, let's start there, what'd

3:18

you do?

3:19

Well, originally I was up for, let

3:23

me backtrack one quick second. I

3:25

was a young kid, they came for

3:27

the last time of Heakins to have extras, and

3:30

I got selected, but I missed the phone

3:32

call. And so I missed

3:34

out on that movie, and years have gone by,

3:37

and whenever they said, we're gonna do Killers

3:39

of the Flower Moon, I was like, well, that's great, I'm Osage. So

3:41

I went to be an extra for that. And they

3:43

pulled me out of line, and they asked me if I'd read

3:45

some lines, and

3:48

I had never really done any acting before. I

3:51

said, sure, let's go. And they said

3:53

they really liked me, and they kept me

3:55

on this roster, and then COVID hit. And

3:59

the movie got put on. on hold and it came back and

4:02

they called me and I was still up for

4:04

a speaking rule for a little bit. I ended up not

4:06

getting it, but then they had me

4:09

do background work for Modern O-Stage

4:11

Man for about 31 days I filmed

4:14

on the movie during the summer of 2021. Modern

4:18

O-Stage Man. Yeah, I made

4:20

a few scenes. I'm in the trailer in the black

4:23

and white scene. I'm the golfer.

4:24

Okay. Okay. And

4:28

from what you saw, did it feel

4:30

like it's really the case that Martin Scorsese

4:33

engaged meaningfully with O-Stage people and

4:35

telling your story? Certainly

4:38

as a viewer. Yeah, tell

4:40

me about that.

4:42

Yeah, absolutely. I know that Martin came

4:44

to Grey Horse and

4:46

came to some dinners way

4:48

before production and started on the

4:50

movie to meet with Chief Standing

4:53

Bear and a lot of my family that lives

4:55

up in that area. I lived down in Oklahoma City

4:57

about two hours away, but

5:00

he came and worked very closely

5:02

with the nation to make sure that the

5:05

story that he was going to tell was a story that the O-Stage,

5:08

my tribe would approve of.

5:11

And what kind of reaction are you hearing from O-Stage

5:14

who have seen the film? I imagine it's a wide range,

5:16

but any through lines you're picking up?

5:19

Yeah, you know, mostly

5:21

positive. There are some

5:24

that have some concerns about it still

5:26

being told from the

5:28

perspective of Ernest Burkhardt and not

5:31

necessarily from the O-Stage

5:33

viewpoint. And

5:35

I can certainly understand that. And I understand why

5:37

that came across in Marty's

5:40

movie, but I still

5:42

think that it's important that the story itself

5:44

got out there. I

5:47

know that there's a majority of us are

5:50

behind the movie and really enjoyed

5:52

the movie, especially those of us who worked on the movie.

5:55

Tell us about your grandmother Rose. She

5:58

is actually part of this history, right?

6:00

Yes, so my grandmother Rose

6:03

is mentioned in the book Killers of the Flower Moon and

6:05

for a time they tried

6:07

to blame Anna Brown's murder on

6:09

my grandmother.

6:11

So Anna Brown is one of the main characters,

6:14

not characters, people depicted

6:17

in the story and in the

6:19

nonfiction book. Anna

6:21

is the, her murder is one

6:24

of the things that sets in motion the FBI's

6:26

investigation of

6:29

the story. So your

6:32

grandmother was accused

6:34

of committing that murder.

6:37

Yes, over jealousy of a boyfriend

6:39

is what they tried to blame it on for a little while.

6:43

There's another book that was a precursor to Killers of the

6:45

Flower Moon, it's just called The Osage Murders and

6:47

it was written earlier in the 90s and

6:49

they go into a little bit more detail about

6:51

it. My

6:54

grandmother was accused because of

6:57

a child, a small child said that they

6:59

overheard her say this, like a five year

7:01

old child apparently was the

7:03

one who said, hey we heard Rose

7:06

Osage say she came. So that's

7:09

kind of how that started but it's briefly

7:11

mentioned in the book but they don't go into the detail

7:14

and Killers of the Flower Moon.

7:16

I mean it kind

7:18

of to me suggests what you're describing

7:20

there, just how, truly how

7:23

much these murders permeated society

7:25

at that time, you know, that it's five

7:28

year old kids were talking about it. Growing

7:31

up, was this history that you

7:34

talked about, was this history that your family talked about?

7:37

Well, yes, but not when

7:39

I was so young, as I got older

7:41

my dad would tell me a lot of the stories,

7:44

especially when the book that I mentioned previously,

7:46

The Osage Murders was released and we

7:49

all had a copy and my mom made sure that we read

7:51

it.

7:53

My dad was born in 1935 and

7:56

my grandmother passed away three months after

7:58

that and my father was taken to the hospital. out

8:00

of custody from the tribe and put

8:03

into the custody of

8:05

a family in Barnsdall, which is a nearby

8:07

town on the Osage reservation.

8:10

And he didn't grow up in traditional

8:13

Osage ways. He grew up with a Caucasian

8:16

family. And so

8:20

a lot of my life, I

8:23

grew up the same way. I didn't grow up on

8:25

the reservation, but I've

8:27

always been wanting to get back

8:30

to meeting my family that

8:32

I know I have there and I haven't spent as

8:34

much time there as I wanted to. But then the

8:36

course of this movie, going back and

8:39

I was able to step back in

8:41

time and envision what it must have been like to

8:43

to be able to see

8:45

my grandma walking around the town of Fairfax

8:48

or Prohuska wearing

8:50

those clothes from the 1920s and seeing a lot of

8:54

the people that are on the movie are related to me, cousins.

8:58

And I just envisioned being back in

9:00

time, being able to talk to my grandma.

9:02

I was very close to my grandma on my mother's side. So

9:05

I've always missed out on having my grandma on my father's

9:07

side.

9:09

What was that like for you then

9:11

to be sort of fictionally walking back?

9:15

It must be sort of a weird experience to think about,

9:17

you know, this is a real life

9:20

thing you you have longed for and

9:23

you're experiencing it in a fictional setting.

9:26

Yes, but when

9:29

I was on set there was times where I didn't

9:31

see any of the camera crew, I didn't

9:34

see any of the things were around.

9:36

I just focused on the people that were

9:38

there and it was very

9:40

emotional sometimes. There were sometimes I was

9:43

overtaken by the emotion. My grandmother

9:46

actually was deceased from

9:48

an opiate overdose. You

9:50

know, this book focuses

9:52

on one subset of murders but there's

9:55

a lot of things that happened that aren't really

9:58

mentioned in this book. And this goes

10:00

on to 1935. My grandmother, there

10:03

was a doctor that just came door to door and

10:05

would inject those age people with opiate

10:09

to get them, their doctor

10:11

would get them over their sickness. And so

10:13

my dad was born addicted to opiate and

10:16

he had to go, you know, he almost didn't make it as a small

10:18

child. And then my grandmother passed

10:21

away shortly after that.

10:24

Yeah, I mean, the official federal

10:27

investigation says 24 people were

10:29

murdered and that's the subject of this film. Many

10:33

Osage point out that the number is a far under

10:35

count. And that's

10:37

what you're talking about here that there were this went on

10:39

in all kinds of different ways. Yes.

10:43

How much is that history, is that

10:45

idea discussed even in the present tense? I

10:47

mean, so David Gran, who

10:50

wrote the original nonfiction version of Killers of the Flower

10:52

Moon published an op-ed in the Times

10:54

this weekend, in New York Times this weekend, they

10:56

pointed out, you know, Oklahoma is one of the states that's

10:59

banned, that's passed

11:01

laws restricting

11:03

what can be taught in classrooms around

11:06

race and sexuality and has said

11:08

that teachers have told him that Killers of the Flower Moon

11:10

is one of the books that people are scared

11:13

to talk about. Do

11:16

you hear that? Are you seeing that too, in

11:19

Oklahoma in general, that this is history that

11:21

people even in present tense can't

11:23

learn?

11:25

Yes. You know, whenever

11:27

I talk to people about the story, people

11:29

are flabbergasted. They had no

11:31

idea that this had gone on, you

11:33

know, much like Black Wall Street that happened simultaneously

11:37

almost. It's a part of our

11:39

history that in Tulsa, which

11:41

is about an hour away from Osage reservation. It

11:45

is something that the

11:47

state has always

11:50

tried to keep under the rug. They don't want

11:52

this to get out.

11:55

And I cannot believe that

11:57

the book is banned. There's a lot of

11:59

books that are banned. that I just cannot believe, but

12:01

especially this one.

12:03

And someone,

12:05

Addie Rohnhor,

12:07

said, you can ban the book,

12:09

but you can't ban Martin Scorsese.

12:12

And so the

12:14

story is going to make it out one way or another.

12:17

Yeah. I mean, this is

12:19

the power of Hollywood, as it

12:21

is difficult to contain once unleashed. We

12:24

need to take a break. I'm Kai Wright, and I'm talking

12:26

with Osage citizen, Damon Waters, about

12:28

the new film, Killers of the Flower Moon and

12:31

the real history it dramatizes. Coming

12:34

up, we will visit Fairfax, Oklahoma, to

12:36

meet Osage citizens who are trying

12:38

to hold on to this painful history,

12:41

to insist that the world learn it and through

12:43

their eyes,

12:44

but also who are trying to move

12:46

forward to something new. We'll

12:49

hear from Fairfax and from Rhett.

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Hey y'all, I'm Rianni Gizzi, host

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Welcome back.

14:27

It's the Notes from America. I'm

14:29

Kai Wright. Martin Scorsese's

14:31

new film, Killers of the Flower Moon, opened

14:34

in theaters this weekend. It tells the story

14:36

of an early 20th century plot to murder

14:38

dozens of Osage citizens in

14:41

order to steal the wealth drawn from oil

14:43

on their land. This is an actual thing

14:45

that happened in actual history in a real

14:47

place, Fairfax, Oklahoma.

14:50

We've partnered this week with our friends at KOSU in

14:52

Oklahoma, and their Indigenous Affairs reporter,

14:55

Allison Herrera, spent time in Fairfax

14:58

asking Osage people about the future. And

15:00

she's going to take us there, too.

15:02

Here's Allison.

15:08

We're walking down the main street of Fairfax,

15:10

Oklahoma, with Dr. Joe and Carol

15:12

Connor. Probably the center of town.

15:15

Joe's an Osage citizen who grew up in a

15:17

small town nearby called Granola.

15:20

His great-grandfather, William Connor,

15:22

was one of the first lawyers for the Osage

15:24

Nation when they were resisting the process

15:27

of allotment in the late 1900s. His

15:30

family is steeped in Osage history,

15:32

and today he and his wife,

15:34

Carol, are giving the tour of Fairfax. Any

15:37

historic photos taken of this town focus

15:40

right on this block that we're standing on right

15:42

now, because it's

15:44

kind of the center right up here.

15:45

It's a small town with a population

15:47

of about 1,100. There's a lot of ranch

15:50

trucks that are passing. The

15:52

cars they usually see are trucks, ranch trucks.

15:56

So a few years ago, it really started

15:58

touching their attention.

15:59

would see cars parked in front of the

16:02

historic tall chief theater. And

16:04

so I would be driving down our main

16:06

street which is mostly vacant

16:08

of cars and there would be

16:11

a Volvo or

16:13

a Lexus. So I

16:15

would pull up next to them and say, what are

16:19

you doing here? Did you read the book?

16:21

And they would say, how did you know that? Well

16:25

duh, there's no one else on the street

16:27

and you're in a Lexus from Minnesota. And

16:30

they would say, I read

16:33

this book and it was

16:36

so touching that I just

16:38

thought I have to go there and see

16:40

this. And this happened

16:43

over and over and

16:45

over. Many of those people

16:47

have actually returned to our town.

16:50

Many subscribed to the Fairfax Chief

16:52

so they can see what's going on. They

16:55

all came to get some understanding

16:58

of how these murders could have happened

17:01

and what's going on now.

17:04

The book was David Grant's nonfiction

17:07

account, Killers of the Flower Moon,

17:09

about the brutal murders of Osage citizens

17:12

for their wealth and land. Joe

17:15

and Carol realized they couldn't stop and

17:17

talk to everyone. So with money

17:19

from the nonprofit they run called the Fairfax

17:21

Community Foundation, they decided

17:23

to do something

17:24

about it. I basically

17:27

created this exhibit giving people

17:29

a background of who the Osage

17:32

people were, how we got here, what

17:34

led up to the murders. He didn't want

17:36

to create an exhibit about the murders.

17:38

People coming here already knew about

17:40

that because they read the book. He

17:43

wanted to tell people the why.

17:45

And also importantly, what

17:47

was the impact of those murders on this community

17:50

But to

17:50

understand the impact, people

17:53

have to know what exactly happened to

17:55

so many Osages.

17:57

The official death toll is

17:58

around 24.

17:59

But many Osages suspect it's

18:02

higher.

18:03

Even though the murders began over 100 years ago, they

18:06

are still not widely discussed

18:08

in Fairfax. When

18:11

David Grant published Killers of the Flower

18:13

Moon, more people got interested in this

18:15

dark period of Osage history. But

18:17

some people in Fairfax didn't know, and

18:20

they didn't want to talk about it. Carol

18:22

realized this after putting an item in

18:24

the Fairfax Chief, a newspaper

18:27

she and Joe publish that's been around

18:29

since the 1920s. And

18:32

so small-town newspapers?

18:33

No one ever

18:36

unsubscribes. They die,

18:39

but they don't unsubscribe.

18:41

But the week that we had David

18:44

Grant at the Tall Chief's Theatre to

18:47

sign books, I

18:50

had 12 people unsubscribe from the

18:52

newspaper. But a few years later,

18:54

attitudes began to change. Martin

18:57

Scorsese signed on to direct the

18:59

movie. That was exciting. And

19:01

more importantly, his film crew actually

19:04

listened to Osages about their concerns

19:06

for the movie. I was part of that 150 or so

19:08

Osages that met with Scorsese and talked

19:11

to him personally about making sure that

19:13

we weren't stereotyped. That it was a

19:16

challenge for him because

19:19

he doesn't know anything about our culture, and he doesn't

19:21

know about this particular time in

19:23

our culture, which was a transition period, between

19:26

very traditional people who were living

19:29

pretty simple lives to suddenly millionaires

19:32

in the 20s, the Roaring 20s. And

19:34

so we, you know, were

19:36

a part of that as a blending

19:38

those cultures. And getting that right in the

19:40

movie is going to be difficult.

19:43

After that conversation, the production

19:45

hired hundreds of Osages to be extras

19:48

in the movie and work behind the scenes. The

19:50

people I've talked to felt committed. This

19:53

wasn't going to be made about them,

19:54

but with them.

19:59

who were hired and excitement was palpable.

20:03

Joe and Carol Conner wanted to take that momentum

20:05

of the film and run with it. At

20:08

the same time though, Joe wondered if

20:10

it was history repeating itself. He

20:12

wanted to make sure those ages were

20:14

going to get something out

20:15

of it. Well, okay. Is

20:17

this another example of us

20:20

being exploited? In this case, what's

20:22

being taken is our history

20:25

and it's going to be used by other people for

20:27

their own wealth and their own personal

20:29

gain. Will they take that money and

20:31

build houses on the French Riviera

20:34

and Hollywood and leave us

20:36

this derelict, abandoned wreck

20:39

of a town here where they got the money? Yeah.

20:42

Will that happen again? We hope

20:45

not. We hope that they have

20:47

an epiphany and say, oh yeah, we probably ought

20:49

to leave this place a little better than we found it.

20:52

So

20:54

Joe and Carol seized the moment. They had

20:56

a vision of where to start if they wanted to improve

20:59

the community and make it so much

21:00

more than a place only associated

21:02

with tragedy. We're standing

21:05

right in front of the Tall Chief Theater

21:08

built by Alex Tall Chief.

21:10

Right after the murders in the late 1920s,

21:13

Osage citizen Alex Tall Chief built

21:16

one of the most recognizable

21:17

structures in town, the Tall Chief Theater.

21:20

He built it in honor of his two daughters,

21:22

Osage Ballerinas, Marjorie, and Maria

21:25

Tall Chief. Its red and gold

21:27

marquee pops out among this small main

21:29

street that has a number of buildings that

21:31

are vacant or are falling in. The

21:34

Tall Chief Theater also needs some love.

21:36

Its roof was damaged after a recent tornado.

21:40

The theater was built to improve the mood of the

21:42

community after the murders, and saving

21:44

it is a passion project

21:45

for Joe Connor. And we see

21:47

this as an investment in the future of

21:50

not only just Osages, but also the entire

21:52

community. So that's why it's

21:54

important to us is to make sure that

21:57

legacy, not just the murder legacy,

22:00

but the resilience and response

22:03

to try to uplift us.

22:06

Osage citizen, Danette Daniels,

22:08

is also trying to uplift the community. She

22:11

was raised here. She's opening a

22:13

museum, gift, and coffee shop in a building

22:16

she bought and renovated.

22:17

I want to be part of bringing

22:20

Fairfax back, revitalizing Fairfax.

22:23

Daniels will be selling books about Osage

22:25

culture, Osage broadcloth

22:28

blankets that can be seen in the movie, and eventually

22:30

she wants to give tours of the building's second

22:32

floor. So this is being

22:34

in the movie?

22:35

That's where the two doctors, the

22:37

Schon brothers, allegedly poisoned

22:39

Osage's. I asked

22:42

Danette how she felt about offering tours

22:44

to people about this terrible subject. Well,

22:47

it's history. So

22:50

it's just the truth, and

22:53

people need to understand the truth. Danette,

22:57

what

22:57

does it feel like to own part of this history?

23:01

It feels good, especially as an Osage person. Yeah,

23:04

taking it back. And this was built with Osage money.

23:08

So pretty sweet.

23:12

A lot of Fairfax was built with Osage

23:15

money, and some of those families, they

23:17

still live in this community. For

23:19

Danette Daniels and the Conners, they want

23:21

to be part of making a memorial to the victims

23:24

of this tragedy, but also revitalize

23:26

this town so people can heal and

23:28

move forward. They

23:31

want the Tall Chief Theater to again hold plays

23:33

and movie screenings, and maybe turn part

23:35

of the building into studios for artists.

23:38

It's all part of a plan to uplift

23:40

Fairfax and have residents here tell

23:42

their own story.

23:49

That was Alison Herrera,

23:52

indigenous affairs reporter for our partners

23:54

at KOSU. She was reporting from

23:56

Fairfax, Oklahoma. Joe

23:58

Connor has passed. since Allison

24:00

spoke to him for this story. He's survived

24:03

by his wife Carol and many, many

24:05

family members and friends. And

24:07

there are also many people still in Fairfax who

24:09

share Joe's vision for the community,

24:12

one of revitalization, investment, and

24:14

growth. And Damon Waters is one

24:16

of those people, and he joins me again now

24:18

to continue our conversation. Damon,

24:21

at the end of the story there

24:24

that Allison was telling us, we heard from Danette,

24:27

who was sort of, I hear her and Allison

24:29

kind of wrestling with this question of like,

24:32

where do you, how do you quote, take

24:35

ownership of this history, but

24:37

not let it dominate the future of

24:39

this place? And I just

24:42

want to, I wonder, you know, how much you're thinking

24:44

about that general question.

24:46

Yeah, I will say that,

24:48

you know, by time on the film, there was a day

24:50

that we were on a break, we were actually

24:52

filming in Fairfax, a lot of the way was filmed

24:54

in Pawhuska, because Fairfax

24:57

didn't, was really capable

25:00

of having the look that it had, just

25:02

because it's been run down with the faded

25:05

sin. And I looked around and I saw all

25:07

the different movie stars that were there around me, and

25:10

all the money that was right here in front of

25:12

me, how much these people were

25:14

worth. And I looked back

25:16

down the street and I can see abandoned

25:18

houses, burned down houses, empty houses,

25:21

empty grocery stores. Now we were on

25:24

set, everything looks really good in the vicinity,

25:26

but all around there. And I thought how unfair

25:28

it was going to be whenever

25:32

Hollywood leaves this town again. And

25:35

what a strange, almost 100 years

25:38

later, coincidence that we're, we're

25:40

still having this money here and it's

25:43

going away. And I thought to myself

25:45

that day, I wish there was something I could do. I thought,

25:47

well, if I could win the lottery, I'd come back here and buy

25:49

some of these buildings and renovate them.

25:53

And that night, I had my picture taken by Carol

25:55

Connor. And I started to talk to her

25:57

and get to know her. And then after the movie wrapped

25:59

a few. months later, I started

26:01

a career, a part-time career

26:04

in acting and making movies that just

26:06

kind of opened up for me. And

26:08

I got a call that said, Hey, Damon, will you direct

26:10

a movie about the the Tall

26:12

Chief Theater in Fairfax? Would you be up for

26:14

that? And if there's one thing I've learned, it's

26:17

just to say yes to everything from this

26:19

point on. That's right. So yeah,

26:22

so I started my own production company called Billy

26:25

George Productions named after my dad, Billy

26:27

George. Some

26:29

of my my retirement money.

26:31

I've been a software developer by trade for the last 20

26:33

years. So I dipped into a little bit of my retirement

26:36

money and started a production

26:38

company, bought a lot of lights and the microphones

26:40

and a nice camera. And my documentary

26:43

is almost done. It should be coming out this week.

26:46

It's going to debut at the Circle Cinema, hopefully

26:48

there in Tulsa. I was

26:51

trying to get it done before the killer's release.

26:53

There's just been some challenges, some personal

26:56

challenges I've been going through. And also,

26:58

yeah, since Joe

27:00

passed away, a little bit of the

27:02

tone of the film has changed. Yeah. And

27:05

Joe was like, he was a really good friend to

27:07

me. And it was very tough to hear of his

27:09

passing.

27:11

We're gonna talk a little more about that here in a second.

27:13

But listeners, we also want to hear from you

27:15

for the rest of the hour, particularly if you're

27:17

Osage. But I think a lot of indigenous

27:20

communities can probably relate to this question

27:22

that folks are wrestling with. How

27:25

are you holding on to the history,

27:28

taking ownership of it in the way that Joe

27:30

and Carol and Damon are trying to do without

27:33

letting it define the future? What's the balance

27:35

there for you? You can call or text us

27:37

either way. And if you're Osage,

27:39

we'd also really love to hear

27:42

your reaction to the film after seeing it, whatever you're,

27:44

that left you feeling or thinking. So

27:47

your film, your documentary that you're working

27:49

on, it's also about the Tall Chief's theater.

27:52

Who is Alex Tall Chief? We heard him mentioned

27:54

in the piece that Alison Herrera just brought us from

27:57

Fairfax, but introduced us to to to Alice.

28:00

Alex Talcheef.

28:01

Alex was one of the original Allati members

28:03

of the Osage nation, and he

28:06

was, Allati mean that he was allotted

28:08

a section of land from the government. My

28:11

grandmother was one of those as well. And

28:14

after the murders had kind

28:16

of ceased, Bill Hale was put

28:18

to prison. All the Osage, if

28:21

they hadn't fled to either Colorado, they

28:23

stayed inside their houses. They stayed inside

28:25

their homes and they didn't go anywhere.

28:28

That still happens today, actually. There's

28:31

a lot of Osages that just stay in their home and they don't

28:33

want to be anywhere around the town. Alex

28:35

built- Because I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I have to make sure I understand what

28:37

you're saying, because of the trauma from it, then we're like,

28:40

I'm just not going out here anymore. I'm going to hide. Exactly.

28:43

Exactly. Yes. Osages

28:45

would keep some of their family just

28:47

at home all the time. Alex

28:51

built the theater as a place for us to have a place to

28:53

get back together. Let's come back out

28:56

into the city. Let's come back out and get into the

28:58

streets. Joe

29:02

would always say, of course, he also built it to

29:04

make some money, but he

29:06

also built it just for us to all have a place

29:09

to go in town. The theater

29:11

was a great place for everyone. I

29:13

think in my movie, I have

29:15

a cousin that talks about when he was a kid,

29:18

that was the thing to do on Saturdays is to

29:20

go to the Tall Chief Theater and see a matinee.

29:24

I think that it's awesome now that

29:26

we're here we are again. We're

29:29

trying to get the theater back together to get

29:32

everybody back out to support this town.

29:35

What happened

29:37

to the theater? Why does it need to

29:39

be renovated, I guess, or why does it need to be revitalized?

29:41

Why didn't it stay this vital thing

29:44

that Alex was trying to create?

29:46

I think there's quite a few reasons.

29:48

I think if I remember correctly,

29:51

the last day that was open was early 72.

29:56

The town had really dropped off, I heard, when

29:58

Halliburton left town. the employees

30:00

and things that left the town just kind of you

30:03

know aside from all the murders that it happened and

30:06

aside from all the history that happened there in Fairfax,

30:08

I think the town just kind of dwindled

30:10

away and Joe almost

30:12

had the theater back up to a state where they

30:14

were going to be able to renovate the inside in 2016 a

30:16

tornado comes through town comes to

30:20

the front door to theater goes right

30:22

through and blows the top of the roof.

30:25

The roof is just all over the stage is completely

30:27

missing basic wow and that

30:29

was a real a real setback

30:31

for the plan to get it open.

30:34

When you say that that the

30:37

you know say just started height staying in the

30:39

House how long did that go on or does

30:42

that is that still the case.

30:43

There there might be a few cases

30:46

that still going on today.

30:48

Yeah, it happened a lot and I mean

30:51

especially in the 80's 90's,

30:54

I think it was still happening. And

30:57

you know not to say that all the us ages are

30:59

like that are doing that but I think there was such

31:01

a something that's really come to

31:04

my knowledge lately is as I'm an adult and

31:06

Russell with some of my own things with this generational

31:08

trauma that's just happened

31:11

and it you know it still affects everybody

31:14

still there in our 3

31:17

cities, but has to come in and

31:19

gray horse. You

31:21

just keep hearing it, I mean this is sadly

31:25

familiar for a lot of communities of color that

31:28

generational trauma that that you're asking

31:30

about it's a too common conversation.

31:33

We need to take a break I'm Kai right and I'm

31:35

talking with Osage citizen and filmmaker

31:37

Damon waters about the history that's traumatized

31:40

in the new film killers of the flower Moon it

31:43

hit theaters this weekend and has already started

31:45

a lot of conversation about how

31:47

and why and for whom this history

31:49

gets told. Our phones are open for indigenous

31:52

listeners in particular if you're Osage

31:54

what your reaction to the film and more generally

31:57

how are you holding on to

31:59

sometimes.

31:59

meaningful history, getting ownership of it, without

32:02

letting it define your future. What's your balance

32:04

on that for

32:05

you? I'll be right back.

32:24

Hi everyone. My name is Rahima and

32:26

I help produce the show. I want to remind you

32:28

that if you have questions or comments, we'd

32:30

love to hear from you. Here's how. First,

32:33

you can email us. The address is notes

32:35

at WNYC.org. Second,

32:38

you can send us a voice message, go to notesfromamerica.org

32:42

and click on the green button that says

32:44

start recording. Finally, you

32:46

can reach us on Twitter and Instagram. The

32:49

handle for both is notes with Kai.

32:52

However you want to reach us, we'd love to hear

32:54

from you and maybe use your message on

32:56

the show.

32:57

All right. Thanks. Talk to you soon.

33:10

Welcome back. It's Notes from America. I'm

33:12

Kai Wright and we're talking about the painful

33:15

history that's been dramatized in the new film,

33:17

Killers of the Flower Moon, and about

33:19

the future of the Oklahoma town where it is set.

33:22

I'm joined by Damon Waters. He's an Osage citizen,

33:24

an actor and filmmaker who's part

33:26

of a broader effort to invest in Fairfax

33:28

and whose family the story touched. Damon,

33:32

can I ask you about the true crime sensation

33:35

of it all? You know, certainly

33:37

in audio and podcasting,

33:40

true crime is the hot commodity. We

33:42

heard Carol

33:45

earlier in the show in Fairfax talking

33:47

about the people driving up in their luxury automobiles.

33:50

I don't know. How do you feel about the

33:53

way people entering this history through a true

33:56

crime lens?

33:58

Well, I think it's... think it's great. I

34:01

mean, I think, well, I think it brings people

34:04

to the town and and that's

34:06

one of the goals as to why we want to open the theater,

34:08

you know, to capitalize

34:11

on some of the revenue from tourism coming through

34:13

the town. There's when you come through Fairfax,

34:15

there's not really much to go on to go there.

34:17

There's treats, the coffee shop, there's

34:19

a barbecue joint and grocery

34:22

store and then the tall chief theater and

34:24

a gas station, of course, but just

34:27

to see all those people come through when I would come to

34:29

town, there's always someone talking

34:31

to Joe and Joe was so good at telling

34:34

stories. And then meeting people,

34:36

I would think when I first would run into

34:38

him with these this group of people that these are his cousins

34:40

or a friend, he's like, Oh, no, those people just

34:42

showed up and I just started talking to

34:44

him and they would follow Joe around all day. They, you

34:46

know, he would love to tell all the stories about

34:49

everything. And so those

34:51

are the people that, you know, are invested in this

34:53

this true crime. And they want to know,

34:56

most people can't believe that this has happened. And,

34:59

you know, they've had people come from all

35:01

over the world to this town so far. And

35:04

we're really hoping that based on the movie,

35:06

when the after the movie is released, that that is

35:08

only going to further the tourism that comes

35:10

to town.

35:11

And that, you know, tourism, however they got there,

35:14

I guess the theory is what whatever was

35:16

on your heart that brought you here, now you're here. And can

35:19

we can we use that in some

35:21

way to develop this place, I guess? Absolutely.

35:26

One of the Osage language consultants on

35:28

the film on Killer and the Thought of the Moon was was

35:31

asked during the film premiere about how

35:33

he talked about it. And I want to play

35:36

something he said, because I thought it was just really interesting.

35:38

He said he had some conflicted feelings. And,

35:41

you know, when he was when he was asked by the Hollywood

35:43

reporter, he said, Oh, I liked it. But also,

35:46

I'm point of view was a little off.

35:48

This is Christopher Cote.

35:50

As an Osage, I really wanted this to

35:53

be from the perspective of Molly and

35:56

what her family experienced. But

35:59

I think

35:59

it would take an Osage to do that.

36:04

Martin Scorsese not being Osage. I think he did a great

36:06

job representing our people. But

36:08

this story is being told, this history

36:10

is being told almost from the perspective

36:13

of Ernest Burkhart.

36:17

And they kind of give him this conscience and they kind

36:19

of depict that there's love. But when

36:21

somebody conspires to murder

36:23

your entire family, that's

36:27

not love. That's not love. That's

36:29

just beyond abuse. So

36:35

that was Christopher Cote, I believe that's how you pronounce

36:37

his last name, who was one of the language consultants

36:39

on the film, He Is Osage. And

36:41

Damon, I mean, you mentioned this earlier

36:43

that you had thoughts about the

36:46

point of view it was shot from. What do

36:49

you think about what he's saying? I mean,

36:52

does it matter to you whose

36:54

point of view the movie came from?

36:57

Well, I got to say, I'm conflicted as well.

37:02

I like the fact that the story is getting

37:04

out there. I will

37:06

say that my first day of filming, we

37:09

went to the Drummond Ranch to

37:11

film. And I thought, well, why would

37:13

we go to the Drummond Ranch to film? We

37:16

have all this other Osage land everywhere else.

37:19

Granted, the Drummond's do own a lot of land. And I think

37:21

you can hear a lot about how that came to be in

37:23

the Entrust podcast by Bloomberg.

37:25

So it

37:30

is conflicting. It's great for

37:33

the story is getting out there. The story is a story

37:35

that needs to be told. It needs to be told so that

37:37

these kinds of things don't get repeated. But

37:42

I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, I have the kind of the same

37:44

viewpoint as Chris is that, yeah,

37:48

they gave Ernest a little bit of the Leonardo,

37:53

the love of his character kind

37:55

of, you know, when I always read the story,

37:57

I just thought of him as a sinister guy. And

38:00

now he's coming across as maybe

38:02

a little bit lovable. I took my daughter to

38:04

watch the movie, the premiere with me the other day,

38:06

and she leaned over and she goes,

38:08

is he a good guy or a bad guy?

38:10

Oh wow, that's so interesting. Yeah,

38:12

I was like, well let's, I go why don't you keep watching

38:15

and tell me what you think, what you think it is. Wow.

38:18

What are you being so?

38:20

That's really fascinating. I mean, I struggled throughout

38:23

with this when I watched it, I have to say. So

38:25

I mean, you have to expect that this is gonna be the case. Leonardo

38:27

DiCaprio, he's

38:30

the star of the film, he's gonna have to have some kind of complicated

38:32

character. And who knows, I don't know the history, maybe

38:35

this white man

38:37

was in love with Molly. I

38:40

did appreciate the fact that it was

38:43

just like an unflinching portrayal of

38:45

the ways in which in our history,

38:49

humans of all sorts, but certainly white

38:51

communities have rationalized

38:54

horrific violence, that

38:56

you were able to see the way

39:00

that the lead white characters and those

39:03

people in real life rationalized what

39:05

they were doing. And

39:07

that somehow was satisfying

39:10

to me.

39:12

But the interior lives of the Osage did feel a little

39:15

flat, I have to say. I

39:17

mean, did you feel, how much

39:19

do you feel like you got the interior lives of

39:21

the Osage people in the movie?

39:24

Well,

39:25

you know, I think Molly

39:28

could have got a little bit more screen time. I wish

39:30

that maybe my grandma got a little screen time

39:33

on there. She's mentioned in the book,

39:35

I was always looking forward to maybe having

39:38

a portrayal. She gets, they

39:41

talk to her about the murder a little bit.

39:45

But I certainly understand it, and it's

39:48

a great movie, Scorsese's one of my favorite filmmakers

39:50

of all time. So there's

39:54

the part of me that just loves this as

39:56

a Scorsese movie, and there's a part of me as Osage

39:59

said. and it says, well, it's

40:01

good. It's good. I wish it could have been a little bit

40:03

more of our viewpoint. And I think

40:05

that's going to happen still. I think there's still talks

40:08

of, there's a book by

40:11

Charles Redcorn called A Pipe for February that's

40:13

mentioned a little bit in this movie, and

40:15

certainly referenced in the credits as some

40:18

of the design

40:20

that Martin took from. But

40:23

there's talk of that becoming either a series

40:25

or a movie. And it's precisely is going to produce it. And it's

40:28

a fictionalized account, but it's from the Osage

40:30

viewpoint. And it's basically one foot in

40:33

the past, one foot in the future. How do

40:35

we as a tribe go

40:37

through this?

40:38

You've mentioned Molly. We've mentioned

40:40

Molly a few times. She is the

40:43

person who's, she

40:46

spurred the investigation in some way when her sister

40:48

was killed. Well, two of her sisters

40:50

were killed. And she

40:53

is in this history, a bit of the heroine

40:56

in that she

40:58

went and demanded an investigation from the federal

41:00

government. How was she remembered in Fairfax?

41:03

Is she thought of as a

41:06

heroic person in history

41:08

or do people know about her?

41:11

Well, a

41:13

lot of them do now. My

41:17

cousin Owen, who we heard talking in the Alice

41:19

interview earlier, he's like, you know, I grew up

41:22

in this town. I didn't even know any of this story until

41:24

I was a teenager

41:26

and just growing up

41:28

in Fairfax. And so I think mostly

41:31

she's looked at as a sad

41:34

figure, you

41:36

know, certainly

41:38

heroic, certainly to make it through all that

41:40

she did. But I think a lot of people

41:42

just sympathize with her and her story.

41:45

You know, she watched her whole family get murdered all

41:47

around her. And the

41:50

fact that she made it out through there is certainly something

41:52

to be said about, you know, the

41:54

will to survive of Molly.

41:57

But I don't

41:59

know if she's necessarily

43:20

the

44:00

case for everyone, but I

44:02

think that that was just a hard thing to navigate

44:05

as People

44:07

coming into Oklahoma we've

44:10

been through some

44:11

terrible times and all of a sudden we have all this

44:13

money

44:14

Okay, what do we do with

44:16

it?

44:17

Yeah, I are I

44:19

mean, you know, I just

44:21

it's I have to imagine the

44:24

rage Of

44:26

the loss of that wealth thinking about

44:28

where the town is today And where

44:30

that what that wealth could be used for listeners

44:34

we can hear from you if you want to join this conversation

44:36

particularly if you are Osage or

44:38

a indigenous listener

44:41

eight four four seven four five

44:43

talks at eight four four seven four

44:45

five eight two five five And

44:48

let's go to Alan in Westchester

44:50

who is not Osage but wants

44:53

to chime in Alan. Welcome to the show

44:56

Hello, how you doing? Very well.

44:58

What did you want to add? Oh I

45:00

just wanted to be great to hear new

45:02

information, you know factual information

45:04

about history

45:05

And hopefully we could do more this and

45:08

no one has to feel, you know stereotyped

45:10

or feel like they're

45:12

being Depicted in

45:14

a bad way because it's just the truth about what's

45:16

taking place in history

45:19

Had you had you heard any of this history Alan

45:21

before the killers of the flower moon?

45:23

No, no, not at all When

45:26

I saw the preview for the movie,

45:28

I didn't know that it was a based on

45:30

facts I just thought it was a movie

45:32

with some interesting actors But

45:35

now listening to you guys which I greatly

45:37

appreciate if you can get the facts

45:41

Okay.

45:41

Thank you for that Alan So

45:44

this is what we're talking about Damon is that

45:46

you know, it's one thing to

45:48

have a book It's another thing to have a Hollywood film To

45:51

get people's attention What I mean the

45:54

sort of a subtext of a lot of this is like

45:56

every time there is a movie like this that deals With

45:58

a difficult history particularly for one

46:00

of our communities that is

46:03

often left out of Hollywood stories told

46:06

by some white person is like, basically,

46:08

did they get it right? Everybody wants to know, did they

46:10

get it right? So just

46:12

in the context of this film, what would that even

46:14

mean for you? I mean, we've talked about it in some of

46:16

the details, but like getting it right, what

46:19

does that mean for a film like this to you?

46:23

Well, you know, I'm an Osage

46:25

citizen, but I can't say that I'm an expert on everything

46:28

Osage, I feel that to

46:31

get it right, I

46:34

think they did it as close as they could. It's

46:36

a great movie. You're certainly

46:38

gonna be entertained. It goes by really quickly

46:40

for the three and a half hour runtime

46:43

that it is. And so I

46:45

don't know if you could ever get the story right, but

46:48

I think it gets close enough. I

46:51

think the fact that the story is out there and people

46:53

are going to the theater to see it. And I

46:56

think that's just, I

46:58

think that's right.

46:59

And for you, it sounds like it has profoundly

47:02

changed your life.

47:03

Yeah, it absolutely has. I've

47:06

ever as a kid going to Fairfax with my dad

47:08

and my dad would be like, I gotta run into Fairfax.

47:10

And we'd go and I would say, oh, I don't

47:12

wanna be in this town at all. And

47:15

so, because it was just so abandoned

47:17

and run down, it wasn't nothing to do as a kid.

47:19

And then, now

47:22

we come coming back, I understand the importance

47:24

and of trying to get

47:27

this town back to its glory day. And

47:29

it might not ever get there, but I think it's a town

47:31

that deserves to be

47:33

in the spotlight. And

47:35

it's a town that deserves to have all

47:38

the glory that comes to it. The

47:40

revenue from tourism,

47:42

I think is something that's not

47:45

being able to be capitalized on because of

47:48

the condition of the town. And so, I

47:52

just feel such a sense of unfairness. And

47:56

I wanna just bring some kind

47:58

of justice back to this town. And

48:00

I feel like this is a start

48:02

for us. So things

48:05

are starting to happen. Some people are starting to help

48:07

us out and we're starting to revitalize the

48:09

town. And I can't wait to see

48:11

what this town's gonna look like in 10 years.

48:13

How about that? Just quickly

48:16

to correct, earlier I mentioned Molly Burkhart

48:19

had two sisters. She had three

48:21

sisters in total and all of them

48:23

died within five years. That's one family

48:25

that's the main family that's depicted in the movie.

48:30

But as you have told us, Damon,

48:32

that is just the beginning of the death.

48:35

You know, we're talking about revitalizing the

48:37

town. What

48:39

about revitalizing the people? Like, what is that

48:42

gonna look like? It sounds

48:44

like you are going through a bit of a revitalization

48:46

yourself from this history. What

48:48

does it mean and what will it take

48:52

to revitalize the Osage people

48:54

if that is even necessary? Help

48:56

me think about that.

48:58

Well, I will say that that's something that, you

49:00

know, Joe was good

49:03

to speak on too. It's just not

49:05

just for the Osage people. I think the Osage

49:08

people that are in town only make up 3% of

49:10

the population, only 9% of

49:12

the town that Fairfax is indigenous. The

49:15

rest is a mixture of Caucasian

49:19

and African-American. So

49:22

it's not predominantly an Osage town anymore.

49:25

And Joe wants to bring it in Carol

49:28

and myself and Owen. We

49:30

want to just make this for

49:33

the town. And certainly

49:35

we want the theater to be there for

49:38

indigenous playwrights and movies to premiere

49:41

and things, because we're right there in

49:43

the heart of the Osage nation.

49:45

But the town itself is not predominantly

49:48

Osage anymore. So

49:50

it's a good question and it's something

49:52

that's gonna be hard to navigate and hard to see

49:55

how things go. Because, you know, like Carol

49:57

said, the day that David Graun talked in...

50:00

In town they had 12 people unsubscribed

50:03

from the the paper. There's still

50:05

a presence there that doesn't

50:08

Want these types of things to happen?

50:11

hard history We will have

50:13

to leave it there. Thanks to Osage citizen

50:15

filmmaker and actor Damon Waters Look

50:18

out for his new documentary about the tall chief

50:20

theater in Fairfax, Oklahoma Thanks

50:22

for this time Damon. Thanks for having me

50:25

Thanks to our friends at KOSU in Oklahoma

50:27

for partnering with us on this show and

50:30

you can always keep talking to us go To notes from

50:32

America org. Look for the green

50:34

record button That's where America is

50:37

a production of WNYC Studios. Follow

50:39

us wherever you get your podcast and on Instagram

50:41

notes with Kai It

50:44

has been lovely talking to you this week, and I look

50:46

forward to talking to you next You