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0:46

I just remember when you asked it to fall. I

0:48

just kind of remember you saying hello. He

0:51

said, my name is Antonio and I

0:53

am your nephew. Not only was his

0:55

mother my sister, she was

0:57

also missing. In 1987, Anita Wiley

0:59

left her home to head to

1:01

the store. She never returned. She

1:04

was outgoing and she was a

1:06

dresser. I'm stay sharp every day.

1:08

Earlier she was just a natural-boning

1:10

hustler. None of us kind of

1:12

liked him, but she loved

1:14

him. You could literally see

1:17

this man's footprint in hustle.

1:19

What were you searching for when

1:21

you contacted me? My aunt.

1:23

You. You know, like if we

1:26

could get to that level of

1:28

conversation that we probably would both

1:30

discover something new. Ourselves.

1:34

Exactly. It's

1:51

Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the

1:54

show. public

2:00

radio listener who are probably deeply

2:02

familiar with the voice of Tanya

2:05

Mosley. She's been an

2:07

award-winning audio journalist for years, has

2:09

been a host of NPR's Midday

2:11

Show here and now, and is

2:13

today co-host of the iconic program

2:16

Fresh Air. And

2:18

amid all of her journalism about the

2:20

wide world we inhabit, Tanya

2:22

has been on a more personal journey for

2:24

several years. About 20

2:26

years ago she got a phone call, met

2:29

a nephew she didn't know existed, and discovered

2:31

a whole new dimension of her family story.

2:34

That nephew told Tanya she had a sister,

2:36

someone named Anita. Tanya had always

2:38

dreamed about having a sister ever since she was

2:40

a little girl in Detroit being raised by her

2:43

single mom, but there was a twist. Tanya's

2:45

new sister Anita had been missing since 1987.

2:47

Tanya and her nephew began

2:51

trying to find out what happened to

2:53

Anita, and they have now made

2:55

a podcast documenting their effort. It's

2:57

called She Has a Name, and it's

3:00

part memoir, part investigative journalism, and really

3:02

a deep dive into

3:04

the city and the history that

3:06

shaped Anita's life. Tanya

3:09

Mosley joins me this week to talk about

3:11

her journey and about her broader work as

3:13

a storyteller and a host. And

3:16

Tanya, welcome to Notes from

3:18

America. Thank you so much, Kai. It's such

3:20

a pleasure to be here. It's fun. We got you

3:22

on the other side of the mic now. I know,

3:24

I'm nervous. So

3:29

the story, Detroit, the

3:31

city you grew up in, is a

3:33

huge part of the story as a

3:35

character almost. So why don't we start

3:37

our conversation there? It's

3:39

your hometown, as I said. Tell me about

3:41

like what did or does

3:43

a good day in Detroit feel

3:45

like? Oh my gosh,

3:48

what a good question, Kai, because

3:51

you know Detroit is about the people. So when

3:54

you go to Detroit, oftentimes I'll ask people, you know,

3:56

I'll meet people and they'll say, oh, when they find

3:59

out I'm from Detroit. Oh, I've been to Detroit and

4:01

I say, okay, what did you do when you were

4:03

in the city? And those who

4:05

tell me they had an amazing time

4:07

is because they were with the people.

4:10

They were experiencing what is

4:12

the beautiful thing about Detroit and that

4:14

that is community. It's

4:16

harder to say, you know, the landmarks

4:18

and things like that because the truth

4:20

about Detroit is that so much of

4:22

it has been raised. It's something new

4:24

now. And so really, it's

4:27

about the people right now. The

4:29

people, your people. That's right.

4:31

You do describe, you said so much of it

4:33

has been raised. I mean, you do describe the

4:35

harpships of growing up in Detroit as

4:37

well in the show. What,

4:40

what was your relationship to the city before

4:42

beginning this project? And how did its well

4:45

known tough history shape that? Yeah,

4:48

well, you know, if anyone has

4:51

met a fellow at Meta Detroit, or

4:53

you know that Detroiters rep their city

4:55

hard and I don't even know if

4:57

you have any Detroit friends, but you

5:00

know, Detroit has been such a big part of

5:02

my identity. I've lived a lot of places throughout

5:05

my career and I

5:07

wear it as a badge of honor because

5:09

to be from Detroit signifies

5:12

something, especially to fellow Detroiters and from

5:14

those who are not from Detroit, they

5:18

know about Detroit's hardships and they're so

5:20

fascinated by it. And so Detroit always

5:22

lives in me. And so when I

5:24

was conceptualizing this

5:26

story and thinking about telling this very

5:28

personal story, I knew that Detroit had

5:30

to be a character because you can't

5:32

really know about me or my family

5:34

without understanding the city and the history

5:37

and all that goes into what

5:40

makes up who we are. It

5:42

is not a spoiler to say that Anita,

5:44

your sister was murdered. We learned that

5:46

right away in the podcast. And

5:50

we'll get to her story in a moment, but sticking with

5:52

Detroit for a bit, in

5:54

the show you say that nearly 700 other

5:57

people were killed the same year that

5:59

Anita disappeared. That's right. Why

6:01

is that important context? What was going on in

6:03

Detroit in the 1980s? Yeah,

6:06

it's the second deadliest year in

6:08

the history of Detroit. What

6:12

was going on that year was the crack

6:14

cocaine epidemic and the

6:17

divestment of the automotive

6:19

companies that had

6:21

started happening right around 1986, 87. People

6:25

were losing their jobs. Detroit

6:27

is an industry town. It's

6:30

the Motor City. I

6:32

think something like 70% of

6:34

its workforce had some sort of

6:37

touchpoint to the automotive industry.

6:39

When the big three started leaving,

6:42

things started to get desperate. Right

6:44

around that time was the height

6:46

of the crack cocaine epidemic. It

6:48

was ravaging communities. I

6:50

saw it firsthand. I think almost every Detroiter

6:52

saw it firsthand. Even if you lived in

6:54

the suburbs, you understood what it meant to

6:57

cross the line and go into the city.

7:00

It was a really dark time. You

7:03

do tie these two events together,

7:05

the eruption of the crack

7:07

trade and the crack epidemic and

7:09

the collapse of the auto industry there.

7:11

Do you think these are related? It's

7:16

a fact that those

7:18

things really contributed to the city's

7:21

decline. I will say that nearly

7:24

20 years before that, there were

7:26

the riots. That was the

7:28

beginning of the end for the city. Why that's

7:30

important to note is because

7:34

what that signified and what that showed

7:36

was that there

7:38

was a discontent that had been brewing in

7:40

the city around racial

7:42

issues and around the

7:46

divestment of automotive companies to the

7:48

suburbs before they took that next

7:50

step outside of the city and

7:52

into other countries. So yes, all

7:54

of that together

7:58

made for a really tough time in the area. and into

8:00

the 90s. It's the story of a lot

8:02

of Black cities. That's right. And

8:04

every time you look at the crack epidemic,

8:07

you just return to that marriage of divest.

8:09

That's right. And the explosion of

8:11

this. Well, I mean,

8:13

that reality shaped a lot about Anita's

8:15

life and also shaped your search for

8:18

information about her life. One of the

8:20

challenges that you and Antonio faced in

8:22

telling the story was that a lot of

8:24

the basic records of life and

8:26

death in the city had been

8:29

destroyed. Why is that? This

8:32

was a

8:35

heartbreaking thing, a very surprising thing

8:37

that the majority of city

8:40

records and police records have

8:42

been destroyed over a

8:44

certain time period. So the

8:46

80s and 90s and surprisingly the 2000s, you

8:49

will see big holes. And that was during

8:53

the time of the city's bankruptcy, but during the

8:55

80s and 90s, there

8:57

had been a crazy amount

8:59

of fires and floods. And

9:03

couple that with the

9:06

city was losing money, a

9:09

lack of services. And so what

9:11

also happened, not only

9:13

could I not find records, I also

9:15

found that there were school records that

9:17

I couldn't even find. So I couldn't

9:19

find police records. I couldn't find school

9:21

records. Many of the schools, including my

9:23

own high school, the

9:25

schools that Anita went to, those

9:28

schools were shut down and records weren't

9:30

kept. And so it's almost like not

9:34

only Anita represents a city that

9:37

doesn't have a record of itself, we

9:39

don't really have, there's so many people

9:41

who don't even have records for themselves

9:43

in the city of Detroit. And so

9:45

that was something surprising when we were

9:48

investigating this case because

9:51

I've lived in a lot of

9:53

places and I've never experienced this

9:55

issue in trying to find records

9:57

that were so recent. We're just...

10:00

talking about 30 years ago. Right,

10:02

a city that doesn't have a record of itself. Yeah.

10:06

It's a thought. How did you first meet

10:08

your nephew, Antonio? When was this

10:10

and what were you doing at the time? Yes,

10:13

so I was a young

10:15

television reporter in Louisville, Kentucky. I had

10:17

just landed a job there and

10:21

I received this phone call out of

10:23

the blue. And on

10:25

the other line was my nephew, Antonio. And

10:27

he told me that he had received my

10:29

number from my father

10:32

and that he was my nephew. And

10:34

I wasn't

10:37

necessarily surprised because as

10:39

folks will learn in the podcast, I didn't

10:42

know my father and I knew there would

10:44

come a day when

10:47

maybe relatives would find me or I would

10:49

find them. But

10:52

what was really heartbreaking and when I think back

10:54

to that time, I could still feel how I

10:56

felt when my

10:58

nephew Antonio then told me that his

11:01

mother was

11:03

no longer here. I really

11:05

didn't have a chance to get excited at

11:07

the prospect of having a sister. And

11:10

so that's how we met. And

11:12

from that moment on, I

11:14

mean, we continued a relationship

11:17

that has only deepened over the

11:19

decades. Introduce us to him.

11:21

How would you describe Antonio to a stranger? I

11:23

mean, he's someone who's had a challenging life in

11:26

many ways and who seems

11:28

to be remarkable. Like if he's a tenacious

11:30

human being, he's the main thing I can

11:32

see from reporting and tracking

11:35

you down. Introduce us to Antonio. Well,

11:38

I had never met anyone as ambitious as

11:41

me until I met him. It's in the

11:43

mind. And I should actually, yeah, I know.

11:45

I should rephrase that. Like I've met a

11:47

lot of ambitious people, but no one that

11:50

I was related to. So it was really,

11:52

really energizing from our

11:54

first phone call that he

11:57

was moving. Like he was

11:59

living in Detroit. at the time, as I said,

12:01

I was living in Louisville, Kentucky, and he knew all

12:03

about the city and city politics. He

12:05

was into urban planning. He was studying at

12:07

the University of Michigan. He

12:10

had this wonderful voice that was just

12:12

crisp and clear. And I

12:15

say that because for some reason, every time

12:17

I think back to that time period, I

12:19

just remember his voice. He talks about how

12:21

my voice was so familiar to him in

12:23

a way that he couldn't describe. And I

12:25

would say it's the same for me. And

12:28

so I just loved talking to

12:30

him. We'd talk on the phone. He'd give me

12:32

a call maybe once a month. I'd call him

12:34

every few weeks, and we'd always

12:36

be on the phone for hours with each

12:38

other. So that's how our relationship developed. If

12:42

I could describe him in current day, it's

12:46

amazing because this podcast, you know,

12:50

we've learned so much about each other. And

12:52

in many ways, it is like

12:55

therapy through storytelling because

12:57

on the surface, Antonio

12:59

has it all together.

13:01

He's a father. He's

13:03

a spouse. He has

13:06

a wonderful job and great friends and

13:08

loves to travel and is deeply involved

13:10

in his children's lives. And at the

13:12

same time, he's

13:15

dealing with this very real thing, the murder of his

13:17

mother that impacts his

13:19

day to day. We'll learn more about

13:21

him after a break. My guest is Tanya Mosley,

13:23

co-host of Fresh Air and host of the new

13:25

podcast, She Has a Name. More with

13:28

Tanya Mosley and your phone calls after a break.

13:48

I'm David Remnick, host of the New Yorker Radio

13:50

Hour. There's nothing like finding

13:52

a story you can really sink into that

13:54

lets you tune out the noise

13:56

and focus on what matters. In

13:58

print or here on the podcast, the New

14:00

Yorker brings you thoughtfulness, depth, and even

14:02

humor that you can't find anywhere else.

14:05

So please join me every week for the New Yorker

14:07

Radio Hour wherever you listen to

14:10

podcasts. It's

14:31

Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright and

14:33

I am joined this week by NPR's

14:35

Tanya Mosley. She's co-host of the program

14:37

Fresh Air, but she also has a

14:40

new project of her own, an

14:42

investigative audio memoir called She Has

14:44

a Name. It's a project in

14:46

which she discovers a long-lost sister

14:48

who was killed in the 1980s

14:51

and then works

14:53

with her nephew Antonio to try and find out

14:55

what exactly happened to their shared loved one. We

14:58

asked you on our Instagram page at

15:00

Notes with Kai if you have ever

15:02

had a similar experience. So

15:05

has uncovering lost family history helped

15:07

you better understand who you are?

15:10

You can leave us a comment on Instagram on

15:12

our page. Again it's Notes with Kai or give us a call

15:14

at 844-745-8255. We

15:19

can also take questions for Tanya if you've been

15:21

listening to the podcast. She has a name. It

15:23

is addictive. I can tell you if you have

15:25

it yet or if you

15:27

have a question about her fascinating career as a journalist. Okay

15:30

Tanya, there is a moment in

15:33

the podcast when you have begun

15:35

to realize some of your sister

15:37

Anita's story and

15:39

realize that Antonio has been withholding

15:41

details about his mother's life from

15:43

you for many years throughout your

15:46

relationship. Here's a very

15:48

quick clip of that moment. Why

15:50

do you think you hesitated early

15:52

on when we first met and

15:54

telling me like the full

15:57

details about your

15:59

mother's disappearance? heartbreaking.

16:02

I didn't want to break your heart. What

16:05

does he mean by that, Sonia? I mean, he gave

16:07

you a funny portrait of

16:10

your sister. Why do you think

16:12

that's the case? We've,

16:16

oh, gosh, you know, he

16:20

gave me a sunny portrait because

16:23

and these are things I want to say, Kai,

16:25

that I've learned through the years

16:27

that we've been working on this podcast. He

16:30

gave me this portrait because when

16:33

you have a murdered parent, a murdered

16:36

loved one, someone who has gone through

16:39

something pretty devastating in a way, they've died

16:42

in a way that is volatile. And

16:45

they were not

16:47

a person that folks

16:50

who maybe, you know, Anita was a

16:52

drug, she had a drug

16:54

addiction problem, and she was also involved

16:56

in drugs. Where

16:58

do you start with that with people when you're wanting

17:01

to get to know them? You know,

17:03

Antonio says that things

17:06

change when you tell people the full story

17:08

about yourself, they can never really see

17:10

you in totality. But I

17:12

will tell you, it really broke my heart that we had

17:14

had a relationship for 20 years, we, as

17:17

I mentioned, would be on the phone for hours with

17:19

each other, our kids got to

17:21

know each other, we spend slow time

17:23

together. And I felt like I knew

17:25

him deeply, that he would keep these

17:28

things from me. At first,

17:30

I thought it was because he

17:33

felt shame for them. And now

17:35

I realize it's much deeper than that he

17:38

was protecting himself by

17:40

allowing himself to be able to have a

17:42

pure relationship with someone that that

17:46

didn't involve this very heavy thing

17:48

hanging over us. And

17:51

knowing that he has dealt with that for

17:53

so long in his life alone. It's really

17:55

powerful for me to be on this journey

17:57

with him as he lifts himself out of

17:59

that. faces those things. A

18:02

new relationship to start fresh with somebody who

18:04

he got to call auntie. That's

18:06

right. Auntie. You didn't like that first. You didn't want

18:09

to be called auntie. Well, because it was

18:11

weird. You know, I'm not an auntie, especially when

18:13

I was in my 20s, you know, I'm like,

18:15

I'm young. I'm nobody's auntie. And

18:19

also, you know, the audience should know we're very

18:21

close in age. So that also was the

18:23

factor there. But more than that, you know,

18:26

because I wasn't raised, we weren't raised together.

18:28

It was just something I needed to get

18:30

used to and really fill

18:32

in those shoes as an auntie. But

18:35

it's interesting that he was so

18:37

longing for this fresh new intimacy.

18:39

Yes. Without any of the past

18:41

to hang over it. I hadn't really thought about

18:43

it that way. That's right.

18:45

And it's so relatable. You know,

18:48

I mean, it is. It is.

18:50

Another interesting thing to me, Tanya,

18:52

is that as I kept

18:54

listening, as I listened to the

18:56

podcast, I kept thinking about

18:59

the Harlem Renaissance, the famous line

19:01

about the Harlem Renaissance from Langston

19:03

Hughes, when he describes

19:05

the kind of black life he wants to

19:07

embrace as an artist. And he writes, we

19:10

know we are beautiful and ugly too.

19:12

And that's

19:15

it felt like almost a thesis

19:17

statement for you in telling Anita's life

19:19

story that she is

19:21

beautiful and ugly too. And that there's

19:23

not a lot of room in our media for

19:26

that about black women or black people period. Yes,

19:30

Kai. And I want to, I want to,

19:34

I want to tell you something so

19:36

that ties directly to what you're saying

19:38

here. You know, I

19:40

left Detroit at 18 years old

19:42

to go to college. And I said to myself,

19:45

and I had told my mother when I was

19:47

young that I was leaving and never coming back.

19:50

And I had a deep and abiding love

19:52

for the city and also a very complicated

19:54

relationship with it. And it took me living

19:58

in seven states. interviewing

20:01

thousands and thousands of people and having

20:04

them be vulnerable and

20:06

open to me. And in

20:08

many ways being an example to me of what

20:11

it means to be able to face your

20:13

truth and speak about it. And

20:16

it took me that time and experience

20:18

to be at this moment where

20:20

I'm now able to step into my

20:23

own story and be

20:25

able to tell the story through my sister,

20:27

a complicated thing that I felt

20:29

such shame about, the things about the city

20:31

of Detroit and the things that I experienced

20:34

and came from. And so

20:36

it really took me that 20 plus

20:38

years of experience to be able to come back and

20:40

look at Anita's life and be able

20:42

to tell her story and be

20:44

able to articulate the very thing that you're

20:46

saying from the Harlem Renaissance. It's like you

20:48

can hold both and see the beauty because

20:51

that helps us understand our humanity. Yes.

20:55

Well, let's meet Anita Wiley. Who

20:57

was Anita Wiley? How

21:00

did people describe her? So

21:04

everyone says that she was a leader. I

21:06

mean, without fail, that's the first thing they

21:08

say, but they say

21:10

it more plainly, like she was a

21:13

boss. She knew how to

21:16

work a room. She knew how to talk to people. She

21:19

was always the one that her siblings looked

21:21

up to and her friends, too. She was

21:23

the one driving. And

21:26

that was something that was innate in her.

21:28

And it was something that she also had

21:30

to grow into because she lost

21:33

her mother at a very young age and took

21:35

on a lot of responsibility. She

21:38

also was like sassy, like she loved

21:40

to dress. She loved opulence. She

21:43

loved to have parties. And these

21:45

things are great to know because it

21:48

helps me and it helps those who love

21:51

her be able to talk about the really

21:53

bright and beautiful things about her. Because

21:55

the other thing that I learned is

21:57

when you lose someone so tragically, oftentimes,

21:59

Sometimes everything about them disappears because

22:02

it's overshadowed by the darkness of

22:04

how they died. And

22:06

so those small details about how she

22:08

loved to put on birthday parties and

22:10

dress in silk dresses and her hair

22:13

was always done. It was late. I

22:15

mean, she was from Detroit, okay? And

22:17

so those

22:19

are the things I know about her and

22:21

I'm learning about her even more at this

22:23

moment. Do you know since the podcast has

22:25

been out, we've heard from

22:28

her from friends, people we didn't know

22:30

about. We have. And these people

22:32

are in their sixties and seventies now because she would

22:34

have been in her sixties by

22:36

now. And

22:39

they say, oh yeah, I remember her.

22:41

She loved boxing and we would always

22:43

go to boxing matches together. I

22:45

knew her from school. It's amazing to

22:48

learn from her these ways too. So

22:50

every day we're learning more. Wow. Let's

22:53

take a call, a phone call. Maureen

22:55

in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. Maureen,

22:58

welcome to the show. Hi, how

23:00

are you? We are well, what did

23:02

you want to share with us, Maureen? So

23:05

I have a sister who's been missing for 43

23:07

and a half years. The last time we saw

23:09

her was the Sunday after Thanksgiving, November

23:12

30th, 1980. And

23:15

I was listening to your program. I'm actually at

23:17

the BJ's deli counter being told, I'm sorry, we're

23:19

closed. So I apologize. I ran in hoping to

23:21

get it here on time. So

23:24

what I wanted to share is a few

23:27

things. One, my sister was

23:29

19 when she disappeared. And in 1980,

23:31

if someone was 19 when they disappeared,

23:34

they were considered an adult and the cops

23:36

kind of really didn't do much

23:38

of anything. So

23:42

many missing people just stayed missing because

23:44

the police turned a blind eye to

23:46

it. Second, my sister was

23:48

a sex worker. And

23:52

when the Gilgo Beach bodies

23:55

were discovered, Jacqueline

23:58

Gluche wrote a front page. article

24:00

about my sister and about my search

24:02

for her. It

24:04

was amazing. What

24:08

you were talking about, about like getting to

24:10

know your mom, getting

24:12

to know my sister through her

24:15

friends that have reached out has been such

24:19

a meaningful part of the

24:21

journey and how many people

24:23

loved her. How many

24:27

people wished that they weren't mean to

24:29

her in grade school and middle school.

24:32

She never really graduated from high school.

24:34

But so many

24:36

people have reached out about that. And the other

24:38

part, so I became at the age of 14,

24:41

an unwilling member

24:45

of the world of the missing. And

24:50

it has been, I've carried this torch with

24:52

me, you know, everywhere. The

24:56

heart that I hope... I'm going to

24:58

stop with you Maureen, just for time. But thank you

25:00

so much for sharing that. An

25:03

unwilling member of the world of

25:05

the missing, Maureen said. Does that

25:07

resonate with you? Oh

25:09

gosh, I thank you

25:11

Maureen for stopping at the counter

25:13

to call us because first

25:16

off, I didn't catch the name of your sister. So

25:18

I'm so sorry. I want to know more. I'm going

25:20

to look it up. All

25:23

the things that you say, Maureen, resonate

25:26

so deeply. And I see in my

25:28

nephew, Antonio and family members and even

25:30

myself. Police

25:34

during that time period, had

25:39

these rules that if you were

25:41

an adult and you

25:43

might have left on your own. And so

25:47

there was not a concerted effort like

25:49

we do now today. You don't have to wait 48

25:51

hours for someone to be missing before

25:56

they go searching for them. But during that time period, that

25:58

was the end of the day. case and

26:01

with my sister, police told

26:03

them that, you know, maybe

26:06

she left on her own. And

26:08

they have lived with this for all

26:10

of these years, and they felt that

26:12

police turned a blind eye. We've

26:15

heard from many families that have also told us the

26:17

same thing. No. Anita's

26:21

life was challenging before she went

26:23

missing. She had

26:25

Antonio at 14, and

26:29

her own mother sort of disappeared from her

26:31

life, right? Yes. And

26:34

coincidentally, her mother also had her at 14

26:36

years old. And

26:39

her mother died when she

26:41

was 32, and Anita was a teenager. And

26:45

Anita was forced to be

26:47

an adult on the spot. It's

26:51

a pretty devastating story,

26:53

but when her

26:55

mother died, it was just her stepfather,

26:57

and her stepfather left. And so Anita,

26:59

as a teenager, 17

27:02

years old, was in charge of her younger siblings

27:04

in a home, the head of the household, in

27:07

an instant, along with

27:09

a toddler herself, that being

27:12

Antonio. Yeah. And it's that kind

27:14

of thing, you know, there's

27:16

so much obvious horror to

27:18

that. But the flip

27:20

side is that she was a 14-year-old who managed to pull

27:22

it together. To some degree, I

27:24

mean, that's remarkable. You

27:27

know, it shows the resilience, the

27:29

resiliency of the human condition

27:31

and also of her, and so

27:33

many who are in that predicament. That

27:35

is definitely true. It's

27:40

true. That's a positive way to look at it, Kai.

27:44

I came to really respect her. She

27:47

disappears at 18, though. Right?

27:50

She was 18 years old? She

27:53

was 28. Antonio was 18 at the time.

27:58

And How did Antonio

28:00

in the before we were going to

28:03

go to break in a couple of minutes, but how

28:05

did Antonio first discover where she

28:07

was that she had been killed? And

28:10

so Antonio was 14 when his mother went

28:12

missing and she was 28. But

28:16

he discovered that she went, she had been

28:18

looking for her for all of his adult

28:20

life. And in 2020,

28:22

thanks to this program

28:24

that the Detroit police has where they

28:26

ask you to give your DNA, they

28:29

wanted to solve some

28:31

old cases that they did not

28:33

have any traction on. And

28:36

there's a cemetery in Detroit

28:38

for unclaimed bodies of the

28:40

unknown. And so they

28:42

were excavating those and gathering DNA.

28:46

And Antonio gave his DNA and Anita was

28:48

the first match as part of that program.

28:51

Which is remarkable thinking about

28:54

what you were just saying about the fact that

28:56

it's been difficult for police to find people. But

28:59

here was your sister was the first

29:01

match in this new program. That's

29:04

pretty cool. It is wonderful.

29:06

And there's a tenacious detective, Sergeant

29:09

Jones, Shannon Jones with the Detroit

29:11

police. She came up with this

29:13

idea because once she became,

29:15

she in 2012 became a homicide and missing

29:20

persons detective. And she immediately wanted to

29:22

wipe out all of the cases. She

29:24

had all of these old cases from

29:27

the 80s and 70s and even all the way into the

29:29

60s. And she just wanted

29:31

to be able to solve them. And so this

29:33

was one of the novel ways she thought that

29:35

they could do that. And so far,

29:37

there have been 62 matches. Okay,

29:40

that's 62 families reunited. That's

29:42

right. And it's

29:44

also what is really quite interesting is that you

29:46

fantasized as a kid about having a sister and

29:49

you named that person. You

29:52

came up with a fake sister and named her

29:54

Anita. I assume after Anita Baker, right? Is that?

29:56

I know. I know. I know. Woman

30:00

back then she was the bomb. She was like

30:02

the biggest R&B star at the time and

30:04

I loved Anita. Yeah Yes, isn't

30:07

that that's why was

30:09

something high? Yeah, I was the fake why

30:11

was the fake sister so important to you emotionally

30:13

What what did she represent? What

30:17

she represented for me at the time

30:19

when I think about it was this

30:21

longing to

30:25

Be connected to someone that saw

30:27

me and in that moment

30:29

when I was a young girl, I was awkward

30:31

I was nerdy. I was chubby and I

30:34

was alone I was the only one

30:36

within my family who didn't know the other

30:38

part of myself And so I felt

30:40

othered in a way and I just

30:43

had this fantasy that a big sister Who

30:45

was all the things that I wish to be? and

30:49

loves me was somehow like Something

30:51

that I wanted to project And

30:54

so yeah when I was in the third grade I made

30:56

up this story that I had a big sister and her

30:58

name was Anita and she was in college and She

31:01

was all of these wonderful things and

31:03

what is crazy about that pie is that? It

31:07

was true but I

31:09

did have a big sister who was

31:11

beautiful and tenacious

31:14

and smart and savvy and

31:16

and This

31:18

podcast is just about learning about her. Yeah

31:22

My guest is Tanya Moseley She's the

31:24

co-host of fresh air and she's talking

31:27

with us about her new project the

31:29

podcast. She has a name It's

31:31

an investigation into the disappearance and murder

31:33

of her sister when she never knew

31:35

she had until adulthood Discovering

31:38

her sister and figuring out what happened to

31:40

her was life-changing for Tanya And

31:43

we asked you on our Instagram page at

31:45

notes with Kai if you've ever had a

31:47

similar experience Has uncovering

31:49

lost family history helped you

31:52

better understand who you are? You

31:54

can leave us a comment on Instagram or you can

31:57

give us a call now at 844-744 We

32:00

can also take questions for Tanya.

32:06

You can ask her about her new podcast or

32:08

anything about her fascinating career as a journalist and

32:10

dare I say a famous voice on public radio.

32:12

844-745-8255 or check us out on Instagram at noteswiftky.

32:19

More in a moment. Hey,

32:45

it's Katarina Barton from the show team

32:47

at Notes for America with Kyrae. Something

32:50

happens to me when I listen to the show. No

32:53

matter the topic or the guess, I

32:55

can always think of someone I want to tell about what I

32:57

just heard. And I do. So

32:59

if you're thinking about who in your life would

33:01

enjoy this episode or another episode you've heard, please

33:03

share it with them now. The

33:06

folks in your life trust your good taste and

33:08

we would appreciate you spreading the word. And

33:10

if you really want to go above and beyond,

33:12

please leave us a review. It helps

33:15

more people, the ones you know and the ones

33:17

you don't, find the show. And

33:19

I'll let you get back to listening now. Thanks. Welcome

33:29

back. It's

33:33

Notes for America. I'm Kyrae Wright.

33:35

We'll talk more with my guest, Tanya Mosley, in

33:37

a moment. But before we get back to that

33:40

conversation, I want to tell you about another one

33:42

we're going to have on the show soon. We'll

33:45

be talking about protests on college

33:47

campuses. Students at

33:49

schools across the country are demonstrating

33:51

right now, occupying spaces and setting

33:53

up encampments as statements of solidarity

33:55

with Palestinians in Gaza and to

33:57

demand a ceasefire there among the

33:59

other things. In some

34:01

ways what we're seeing now is a familiar

34:04

scene. There is a legacy

34:06

of student protests throughout the US history

34:08

that has been part of just

34:10

remarkable change. So we're going

34:12

to look at some of those moments alongside this one

34:15

and we'd love to hear from you. Were

34:17

you part of any big protest movements

34:19

as a student? Did you join protests

34:21

against say the Vietnam War or against

34:24

apartheid in South Africa? Or maybe

34:26

for more local change like university

34:28

policies on your campus? Send

34:31

us an email or a voice memo

34:33

to notes at wnyc.org.

34:35

That's notes at

34:38

wnyc.org and we

34:40

will add your voice to this future conversation

34:42

on Notes from America. Thanks in advance. Okay

34:46

so now back to Tanya Mosley who

34:48

is co-host of the iconic public radio

34:50

program Fresh Air and now

34:52

also the host and co-executive producer

34:54

of the podcast She Has a

34:56

Name. It's a memoir and an

34:58

investigation into the life of her

35:00

sister Anita. Tanya was an

35:02

adult when she found out she even had a sister

35:05

and then discovered she'd been murdered

35:07

back in the mid-1980s. Tanya

35:10

your life turned

35:12

out very different than Anita's. That

35:15

is something that

35:17

I imagine is also something

35:20

for you to wrestle with and I

35:23

just wonder how much that has come

35:25

up as you've made this podcast. It's

35:27

frankly quite common for black people who

35:30

have made it to the middle

35:32

class however we define that term by education

35:35

or income or professional status or whatever to

35:38

have close relatives with very different

35:41

experiences in American capitalism and

35:43

you know I know this is true for

35:45

people of all kinds of backgrounds

35:47

but the data is clear that it is

35:49

uniquely common amongst black American families.

35:53

That can be a fraud experience and I just wonder

35:55

if Anita's story ahead made you think about that at

35:57

all in relationship to your own story. Oh,

36:00

absolutely. It's at the forefront of my

36:02

mind with

36:04

Anita's story, and it's a driver in my

36:07

life. You know, we've

36:10

talked a lot. You've heard a lot

36:12

about survivor's guilt. I suffer

36:15

from survivor's guilt. I

36:17

have all of my life. Doing

36:21

this podcast, producing this podcast, and learning

36:23

about Anita through this

36:25

podcast, which in turn has helped me learn

36:27

about myself, what this

36:31

project has allowed me to do is to

36:33

face that guilt and to really wrestle with

36:35

it and pick it

36:37

apart and understand it and

36:40

understand what happened

36:42

in Anita's life and what happened in

36:44

my life and what were the circumstances

36:47

that made her life

36:49

very different from mine. And I will

36:52

say that it's also something I've just been

36:55

grappling with, as I said, all of my

36:57

life, but never in this way where I've

36:59

truly sat down to try to figure it

37:01

out so that I could get over it

37:04

because it's been crippling too. It really

37:07

has. What have you

37:09

learned about yourself? You said it's been a process in

37:11

which you've been able to learn about yourself too. What

37:13

have you learned about yourself? Well,

37:16

you know, I mentioned how I left

37:19

Detroit at 18 and I knew that I had been

37:22

running. I know

37:24

that my wanderlust has to do with

37:27

my insatiable curiosity and of course love

37:29

for journalism and being a reporter, but

37:31

there's something deep in me that's also

37:33

driving that. While

37:36

I knew that, I never really faced it.

37:38

It's something that I just kind of, you

37:43

know, I didn't face because when you're running, you're not

37:45

stopping to think. And

37:47

so the ways that

37:49

I've been able to understand myself

37:52

is by facing those truths, but

37:55

also by learning about Anita and Antonio

37:57

and through them also, learning

38:00

about my father and other

38:02

relatives. And by learning

38:04

about them, I'm learning about myself. I

38:07

learned so much history about my father

38:09

that I didn't know through researching Anita.

38:12

And that's been gratifying because it allows

38:14

me to understand the parts

38:16

of myself that I did not grow up knowing. I

38:19

think we have a listener with a question related to this. Todd

38:22

in Cleveland, Ohio. Todd, welcome to the show.

38:27

Todd, can you hear me? I

38:29

can. Hello. Welcome. OK,

38:31

cool. So I noted

38:34

that when you said your nephew

38:36

got your number from

38:39

your father, his grandfather, did

38:41

you have an opportunity to get

38:44

to know him and his

38:46

parents, your grandparents, as

38:48

living people as a result of this conversation?

38:51

And did you get

38:54

some understanding early on if Anita

38:56

had a relationship with

38:58

your father that you thought might be

39:00

significant to talk about on the radio?

39:03

And then one last question. What's

39:06

your earliest piece of history that

39:09

you have on your sister that

39:11

you find highly significant? Like, for

39:13

example, do you know something about

39:15

her life as a kindergartner? I'm

39:18

using that as an example. Thank

39:21

you for those questions, Todd. Those are great questions. Let's

39:23

talk a little bit about your father. You

39:26

want to start there? Todd, yes,

39:29

thank you so much for those questions. Yes,

39:32

at the time that Antonio contacted

39:34

me, I had also been in

39:36

contact with my father around that

39:38

time, which is why my father

39:40

likely gave Antonio my information.

39:44

We were getting to know each other. I was

39:46

a young adult. And as I

39:48

mentioned, I did not grow up with him. Antonio

39:52

and I reflect a lot about

39:54

that time period and the gift

39:56

that my father gave me by

39:59

sending Antonio way. In many ways,

40:01

we feel like he knew that we needed

40:03

each other. At least that's what

40:05

we tell each other. I learned

40:07

about my father, the history

40:11

behind why he was in Detroit.

40:13

He had fled from Mississippi. He

40:16

had a friend, his best friend who

40:18

had been hung by a tree and

40:20

he was so devastated and so traumatized

40:22

by that, that he fled to Detroit

40:24

with the clothes on his back. He

40:27

got into the automotive industry and he

40:29

was able to open a series of

40:31

tire shops in Detroit. He was

40:33

a deeply wounded man. He knew my sister was

40:35

one of his

40:38

other daughters by someone else, but he

40:40

didn't have a relationship with him or any of

40:42

his children in the ways

40:44

that we needed and

40:47

we yearned for. What I understood

40:49

was the complexities of his own

40:51

trauma through this podcast, through researching

40:53

and talking to people. I was

40:55

able to understand some

40:58

of the things that he was dealing with. Did

41:01

you get a sense that he

41:03

was himself, was fleeing racial violence

41:05

himself as well? I mean, you

41:07

described him escaping in the trunk

41:09

of a car from Mississippi. This

41:11

is a very common

41:15

part of what we call, we know is

41:17

the great migration of black folks from the

41:19

South to the North. Did

41:21

you get a sense that he was also

41:23

facing violence? I'm

41:26

not sure. I believe that he was

41:28

afraid. He was deeply afraid that this would

41:30

be his fate and it was such a

41:33

deep wound in him that he only talked

41:35

about it a handful of times to people

41:37

and they got just a little bit of

41:39

the story, not the whole story, which is

41:41

also understandable, which I also found through

41:44

the research and interviewing family members and friends

41:46

is that we hold on to this stuff

41:48

and we repress it and we don't talk

41:51

about it or share it or pass it

41:53

down to our children. I

41:56

also want to say that this podcast

41:58

for Antonio is Him also

42:01

learning about his mother and piecing together

42:03

her because when

42:05

she Disappeared he was 14 years

42:08

old and so his

42:10

version of her is forever frozen

42:13

in time without Understanding

42:16

with which what it comes with

42:18

wisdom and time and growth in

42:20

age When you are

42:22

able to see your parents as whole

42:24

and complete people the complexities of them

42:26

He never had that experience and so

42:29

he's having a slice of

42:31

that a version of that through through this

42:34

podcast Well,

42:36

that brings us to Todd's other question of what

42:38

you've learned about Anita prior

42:40

in her early life. Sorry his question was

42:42

what's the earliest thing you've learned about her

42:45

that that is relevant or informative to you

42:48

Yes, I learned From

42:51

her sister Val. They were

42:53

just a few years apart that That from

42:56

a very young age Anita was a nurturer.

42:58

So Her

43:01

memories of her sister was always her

43:03

sister playing with her caring for her

43:06

loving to loving music loving to dance

43:08

loving to get the kids together and

43:11

Play house and those kinds of things which

43:13

I thought were beautiful memories And it takes

43:16

me back to the old days when kids

43:18

would just be outside making up games, you

43:20

know Yeah To

43:23

go back to your father for a second There's

43:26

this a scene that was

43:28

very compelling to me in the podcast

43:30

after you Have met

43:32

one of your siblings who he raised

43:35

one of the daughters. He had who

43:37

he didn't raise As

43:39

someone in the pot in the podcast said Papa

43:41

was a Rolling Stone And

43:47

so you met one of them And

43:51

she described this wonderful relationship

43:55

And your producer asked you whether

43:58

you regretted not having that relationship with

44:00

him, you kind of say,

44:02

no, you don't. Tell

44:05

me about that moment for you and what you were

44:07

reflecting on. Sure. So, yes,

44:10

my father was a rolling stone, for sure. He

44:13

had a lot of children and from

44:16

different people. And I

44:20

think I, my mother was

44:23

amazing. She was

44:25

an amazing single mother who really sacrificed

44:28

so much for me and tried her best

44:30

to make sure I

44:32

had the best in everything that she could give

44:35

me, which was education and

44:37

learning and just

44:40

an insatiable desire to make sure that

44:42

I was educated. And

44:45

the love

44:47

from my family on my mother's side

44:49

really fortifies me and makes me who

44:51

I am today. And so learning about

44:53

my father while it was really gratifying

44:56

and I regret that we didn't

44:58

have a relationship. I

45:02

also am okay with it because

45:05

I hate that saying. I

45:08

hate this saying I'm about to say to

45:10

you Kai, it is what it is. But

45:12

some things you just can't explain it, you

45:14

know, some things they just are. And I

45:16

can't change the past. And

45:18

so I can't be broken by that

45:21

because there's nothing that could have ever,

45:25

that I could have ever done. And

45:28

as you say, you're able to think about what you have instead

45:30

of what you don't have in your mother. That's

45:34

right. That's right. How

45:36

has she processed this? I

45:39

imagine this is an experience for her as well. It is, yes. So

45:45

episode four, I'll just say, she has

45:47

an appearance in it and

45:49

she talks about meeting my father and their

45:51

relationship. And so I just recently saw her.

45:54

I was in Detroit and I rang the

45:56

doorbell. She opened the

45:58

door and she said, I just listened to episodes. So for

46:01

my story, and I said, you're right,

46:03

it is your story. She

46:06

had a few other details she wish I had put

46:08

in there, which I may later. But it's

46:11

been wonderful to have this conversation with my

46:13

mother because one of the things that

46:16

my mother did as a way

46:18

of self preservation for her, and because she didn't

46:20

have the language for me as a child, is

46:22

that she never talked about my father growing up.

46:24

I didn't know anything about him. She didn't tell

46:27

me anything bad, but she also didn't tell me

46:29

anything good. And so I'm learning

46:31

things through conversations that

46:33

we're having, woman to woman,

46:36

you know? I mean, you're always a

46:38

child and your mother's eyes. Yes,

46:41

and this is a gift to be able to have

46:43

this type of conversation with your mother. Yeah.

46:47

So it's changed your relationship as well. A lot of

46:49

relationships have changed in the course of this. Which

46:52

is the beautiful thing about talking. It's

46:54

the beautiful thing about being

46:56

vulnerable and open with people close to

46:58

you, telling them the things that occupy

47:00

your heart and mind that you keep

47:02

closed, allows

47:04

you to gain deeper understanding, you

47:06

know? So these have

47:09

been really hard conversations to have but needed.

47:11

Yeah. You

47:14

made the choice to tell a deeply

47:16

personal story that actively centers people's lived

47:18

experiences. How different was

47:20

this approach to how you tell other

47:22

stories as a journalist? I mean, as

47:24

an interviewer on a daily

47:27

conversation show, just how different was this for you? Well,

47:31

it involved my family. So that was what made

47:33

it different. It's the poor most. Yes,

47:37

but at the core of

47:39

it, to allow

47:42

expansiveness for people, all

47:46

different types of people with different lived

47:48

experiences, that's what drives me. I

47:51

wanna hear from everyone. I wanna hear from

47:53

the world. It's why we love stories. It's

47:55

why we love to hear each other, to

47:58

see each other. It's why we watch. movies

48:00

and television and listen to the news,

48:02

we are trying to understand ourselves and

48:04

we can't do that unless we understand

48:07

others. We have to be relational. That's

48:10

why it's so fortifying. I'm

48:13

getting so many letters from people that are

48:15

really beautiful to me because I understand when

48:17

you see yourself, when you hear yourself, when

48:19

you hear an accent that sounds like one

48:21

that's familiar with you to you, if you

48:23

a person that is from

48:25

where you're from or a similar

48:27

place, a background that sounds familiar,

48:29

people who have loved ones who

48:31

were involved in drugs or sex

48:33

work. These people never

48:36

get to hear their stories, their

48:38

loved ones stories in a way that shows

48:40

the totality of who they are. That

48:44

is what drives me is to be able to

48:46

open up that expansiveness and in any way that

48:48

I do it, whether it's through fresh air and

48:51

having conversation with people or

48:54

storytelling in a narrative way,

48:56

it's so fulfilling to be able to do

48:58

that because I'm trying to understand the human condition

49:00

too. It's participatory

49:03

journalism. You're really

49:05

involving people in telling their own stories

49:07

in this podcast, which is something different

49:09

than we hear a lot as well.

49:14

You're going to be holding a listening session for

49:17

the podcast in Detroit, I understand. Why

49:20

and what do you hope comes out of that? Yes.

49:23

We're holding a live event in May on May 13th. I

49:28

want to hear from the community. There's

49:30

nothing like being in a room full

49:32

of people and having conversation and relating

49:34

with each other. I

49:37

love opening up space and

49:39

I'm honored to be able to do it and

49:41

be able to do it through this podcast where

49:43

I want to hear people. I want to hear

49:45

their curiosities, but I also want to hear their

49:47

stories. I know we're going to

49:49

hear a lot of them. Like Maureen, I

49:51

can't wait to look up more about her

49:53

sister and I want to hear other people's

49:56

experiences too. Tanya

49:58

Mosley, thank you so much. much for the work

50:00

that you are doing and thank you so much for joining

50:03

us to talk about it. Kai,

50:05

this has been a pleasure and an honor. Thank you

50:07

so much. Tanya Mosley

50:09

is co-host of Fresh Air and

50:12

co-executive producer along with her nephew,

50:14

Antonio Wiley of the podcast, She

50:16

Has a Name. We

50:18

want to keep hearing from you. Thanks to everyone

50:20

who called. You can leave us a message about

50:22

what you heard in my conversation with Tanya just

50:25

by calling the 844-745-TALK and leaving

50:28

a voicemail right there. We

50:30

also are asking you to add your

50:32

voice to a future conversation we're going

50:34

to have about student protests now and

50:36

throughout history. If you've joined

50:39

the student demonstrations currently sweeping the country

50:41

in opposition to Israel's bombardment of Gaza,

50:43

we'd like to hear from you. But

50:45

also, if you're no longer a student, I

50:48

want to hear if you were part of

50:50

a past campus demonstration. Tell us about it.

50:53

Leave a voicemail or send us a text message at

50:55

844-745-8255 and share what kind of social change your

51:01

actions and student protests have a student

51:03

protester created. Thanks in advance. Notes

51:06

from America is a production of WNYC Studios.

51:08

This episode was produced by

51:11

Siona Petros. Theme music

51:13

and sound design by Jared Paul. Matthew

51:15

Morando is our live engineer. Our team

51:18

also includes Katarina Barton, Regina

51:20

DeHear, Suzanne Gabbard, and Lizzie

51:22

Foster Thomas. And I am

51:24

Kai Wright and I thank you so much for

51:27

spending this time with us.