0:00

This episode of Navarra Live is brought

0:02

to you by listeners like you. Thank

0:04

you. Good

0:08

evening and welcome to Navarra Live. My name is

0:10

Aaron Mustani. Tonight I have the immense pleasure, the

0:13

huge satisfaction of

0:15

being joined by Michael Walker. Michael, how are we? Very

0:18

well, I'm glad to satisfy

0:21

you and excited. What a

0:23

crazy day in British politics it's been. I'm

0:25

like, I've just been completely shocked every

0:27

time I've seen a Tory speak so I

0:30

can't wait to go through it with you. Yeah,

0:32

we will be talking about the craziness, the

0:35

perennial craziness that is the British Conservative Party.

0:38

Coming up later this evening, updates on

0:40

the US port set to be built

0:42

on the Gaza coast to help deliver

0:44

aid. We look at the situation in

0:46

Haiti following unrest that has led to

0:49

the resignation of that country's

0:51

Prime Minister and head of

0:53

a potential Labour government. Keir Starmer was

0:55

grilled on Sky News regarding his plans

0:57

for governing Britain. Stay tuned for all

1:00

of that. But first, racism

1:03

from a Tory donor. Well,

1:05

I never. First story, Frank

1:08

Hester is one of the Conservative

1:10

Party's biggest donors, having handed them

1:12

£10 million in the last year

1:15

alone. But it's now emerged

1:17

that he's made racist comments about

1:19

Diane Abbott. The Guardian

1:21

reports that after calling a

1:23

female executive, quote, the shittest

1:25

person in a 2019 business

1:27

meeting, Hester said this. It's

1:30

like trying not to be racist, but

1:32

you see Diane Abbott on the TV

1:34

and you're just like, I hate, you

1:37

just want to hate all black women because she's there. I

1:40

don't hate all black women at all. But

1:42

I think she should be shot. The executive

1:44

and Diane Abbott need to be shot. Hester's

1:47

company, the Phoenix Partnership, has received

1:50

over £400 million in NHS contracts

1:52

since 2016. It released this comment

1:54

about his remarks.

2:00

Frank has to accept that he was rude about Diane

2:02

Abbott in a private meeting several years ago, but

2:04

his criticism had nothing to do with her

2:07

gender or colour of skin. The

2:09

Guardian is right when it quotes

2:11

Frank saying he abhors racism, not

2:14

least because he experienced it as

2:16

a child of Irish immigrants in

2:18

the 1970s. He rang

2:20

Diane Abbott twice today to

2:23

try to apologise, try, directly

2:26

for the hurt he has caused her,

2:28

and is deeply sorry for his remarks.

2:30

He wishes to make it clear that he regards racism

2:32

as a poison, which has no place in

2:35

public life. Frank has to

2:37

also release another statement this afternoon in

2:40

an attempt to get ahead of a

2:42

further Guardian report which quotes

2:44

him as saying this. For

2:47

me racism is a hatred and a fear

2:49

of the other. For me it

2:51

is exactly the same as homophobia. It's not limited

2:53

to the colour of your skin, it's not limited

2:55

to religion. It can just be

2:57

the country next door. It can be Northerners and

3:00

Southerners, which we have here. Apparently you

3:02

can be racist to Northerners.

3:04

Who knew? Hester

3:06

confirmed this is his view, but felt

3:09

to confirm that he did indeed say

3:11

the comments about Diane Abbott. On

3:14

the morning media rounds, where ministers were

3:16

attempting to defend their party over Hester,

3:18

this is work on pension secretary Mel

3:21

Stride. It's clear that what

3:23

he said was inappropriate. He has, as

3:25

I understand it, apologised for those remarks.

3:28

I think the critical point here is

3:30

I don't think what he was saying

3:32

was a gender-based or a race-based comment,

3:34

but it was clearly inappropriate.

3:36

He has apologised, and I think we

3:39

need to move on from there. Also

3:41

trying to downplay the issue was

3:43

Energy Minister Graham Stewart on

3:45

Sky. Hester has made clear

3:47

that while he was rude his criticism had nothing

3:50

to do with the colour of

3:52

her skin. Is

3:54

that right? He

3:57

has been absolutely clear that although he

3:59

spoke in an intemperate and rude manner.

4:01

I know. What he said, he said, it's

4:03

like trying not to be racist, but you

4:05

see Diane Abbott on the television and you

4:07

just want to hate all black women because

4:10

she's there. I don't hate all black women,

4:12

but I think she should be shot. Diane

4:14

Abbott needs to be shot. I

4:16

mean, that is based on the color

4:18

of her skin. And they're truly

4:20

awful remarks, aren't they? So there's

4:23

nothing I can say apart from to condemn them

4:25

and say that he's absolutely right to apologize. So

4:28

should the Conservative Party spokesperson, just to have

4:30

said, it's got nothing to do with the

4:32

color of her skin? Well,

4:34

that's clearly what he said. He used

4:36

the wrong language. He was annoyed with

4:38

Diane Abbott and was making a white

4:40

point. I'm not remotely tempted to try

4:42

and defend it. He shouldn't have said it. It

4:45

was half a decade ago in a

4:48

private meeting, but that doesn't really excuse

4:50

it. That's why he's quite right to

4:52

apologize profoundly profusely and completely because those

4:55

words are not defensible and I'm not here today

4:57

in any way to seek to defend them. So

4:59

you know what my follow up is? Should

5:01

the Tory Party return the money, the

5:03

many millions he's given? Or are you OK

5:06

to spend money that has come from him?

5:08

He's only apologizing because he's been caught out.

5:11

Yeah, and it's obviously, as I

5:13

say, deeply regrettable. But everybody, we

5:17

can't cancel anybody from participation in public

5:19

life or indeed donating to parties because

5:21

they said something intemperate and wrong in

5:24

their past. It's not my

5:26

decision, but I

5:28

do welcome those

5:30

who support the Conservative Party to ensure that

5:32

we have Rishi Sunak, of course, our first

5:35

Hindu Prime Minister. You welcome. We

5:37

welcome. I have to return. Not

5:40

returning his money is something else. You're saying you

5:42

welcome his money. No, I said I welcome all

5:44

those who seek to ensure that our first Hindu

5:46

Prime Minister stays Prime Minister and that we don't

5:49

have Kia Sartama becoming Prime Minister

5:51

of this country. So somebody else that might have

5:53

said things like this in the past, you welcome

5:55

their money. I'm saying

5:57

that I welcome those who contribute. I'm

6:00

not here to sit in judgment on one remark.

6:03

What a cockroach! I'm not here to sit

6:06

in judgment on one remark. You did. Literally

6:08

a minute earlier, you say those are awful

6:10

remarks. That's judging them. My

6:13

goodness, imagine these people in the general election campaign.

6:16

We should say that Business Secretary

6:18

Kemi Badenok, who's also Minister for

6:20

Women and Equalities, has this afternoon

6:22

called Hester's comments racist, as

6:25

has Quazi Kwatang. Both Tory

6:27

MPs of colour, although Kwatang

6:29

is off come

6:31

the next general election. Michael, those

6:34

ministers we showed, clearly being briefed to

6:36

say the comments were rude and inappropriate,

6:39

but they're refusing to say they were either

6:41

racist or sexist. What do

6:44

you make of those responses? And secondly,

6:46

what do you make of Badenok, who's very

6:49

ambitious, very talented in her own

6:51

way, breaking ranks with number

6:53

10? Mel Stryde was just

6:55

repeating a line which the Conservative Party spokesperson

6:57

or the Prime Minister spokesperson said yesterday, which

6:59

is these comments had nothing to do with

7:01

race or gender. He

7:03

literally said it makes you want to hate black

7:05

women. It could

7:08

not be any more explicit. You

7:10

know, like in the anti-Semitism debate when it comes to

7:12

Labour, sometimes you sort of say, oh,

7:15

they've used a trope and they say, well, they didn't, you

7:17

know, maybe they've said that they were powerful and rich or

7:20

something, and that is a trope, but they only said it,

7:22

they didn't say it because they were Jewish, right? There are

7:24

lots of situations where

7:26

one might accuse someone else of racism. You know, you've

7:28

got a black politician and you say they're very aggressive.

7:30

You say, well, I didn't say that because they were

7:32

black. I said that because I think they're aggressive in

7:34

this situation. There are grey

7:37

areas when it comes to racism

7:39

and often someone's intentions aren't clear,

7:41

right? So it's not

7:43

always completely black and white. This

7:45

one is. He

7:47

said, you just want to hate all black women

7:50

and she should be shot. It

7:53

does not get any more clear cut than

7:55

that, right? It's black

7:57

women, right? He's not talking about Diana, but

7:59

as I said, He's saying he hates Diane Abbott

8:01

and that makes him want to hate all black

8:03

women. It's an open and

8:05

shut case. To have all of

8:07

these Tory MPs go out there and pretend it's anything

8:10

other than that is frankly

8:12

bizarre. I don't know how much

8:14

they need, this £10 million. They

8:16

never eliminate this story. He's their biggest donor

8:18

and his whole career is based on getting

8:20

contracts from the state. Now, I've got no

8:22

idea if his IT company is the best

8:24

in the business. His

8:28

company is better at record keeping for

8:30

the NHS than anyone else. But this

8:32

guy has become a multimillionaire by winning

8:34

these contracts. How is it appropriate

8:36

for him to be the biggest donor to the

8:39

main party, to the governing party? The

8:42

Kemi Badenoff thing you mentioned there is always interesting because Kemi

8:45

Badenoff isn't to the

8:47

left of the Conservative Party when it comes

8:49

to issues about race and identity. In

8:52

a way, she's often fronting their

8:55

message to say, oh no, this thing

8:57

that you think is racist isn't

8:59

racist. It's very critical of ideas

9:01

of structural racism. If

9:03

there is a disparity, that's not necessarily because of racism. It

9:05

could be for any number of reasons.

9:08

It's obviously very critical of definitions

9:10

of Islamophobia. She is not

9:13

left wing on racism issues, but

9:15

she is a black woman. She's

9:18

read this comment. I

9:20

cannot possibly read

9:22

that comment and not say it's

9:25

both racist and misogynist. I think it's

9:27

really embarrassing for the Conservative Party that

9:30

the only people who seem to have come out and broken ranks,

9:33

it's not because of their political

9:36

leanings. It's not because there

9:38

is a faction of the Tory party that

9:40

has a different perspective on race to other

9:43

factions for some ideological or philosophical reason.

9:46

The black politicians in the Conservative

9:49

Party aren't willing to go along with this

9:51

complete farce. You can say you don't

9:53

like a black person, say that makes you want to

9:55

hate all black people, and then pretend

9:58

that the hatred has nothing to do with it. do

10:00

with race. It's

10:02

completely bizarre and yeah, Kemi Badenok

10:05

isn't willing to pretend. I mean, maybe it's because

10:07

as you say, she's hopeful for a future Tory

10:10

leadership election. It might just be that there's a

10:12

limit to what she can go along with and

10:15

saying that this completely

10:17

racist statement is not racist is

10:20

something she's not willing to do. Who

10:23

knows? I should say Michael

10:25

as well. It's interesting, isn't

10:27

it? All the stick that was thrown at

10:29

Jeremy Corbyn for being allegedly anti-Semitic. If only

10:31

he had donated money to the Tory party,

10:33

he would have been fine. Now

10:35

we know how to rebut these claims.

10:38

Coming from the right, Diane

10:40

Abbott herself has released this statement

10:43

in response. It is

10:45

frightening. I live in Hackney and do not

10:47

drive, so I find myself at weekends popping on a

10:49

bus or even walking places more than most MPs. I

10:52

am a single woman and that makes me

10:54

vulnerable anyway. But to hear someone

10:56

talking like this is worrying. For all

10:58

of my career as an MP, I thought it important

11:00

not to live in a bubble, but to mix and

11:02

mingle with ordinary people. The fact that

11:04

some MPs have been murdered in recent years

11:07

makes talk like this all the more alarming.

11:09

I'm currently not a member of the Parliamentary Labour

11:11

Party, but remain a member of the Labour Party

11:13

itself, so I am hoping for the public support

11:16

of Kirste Armour. Abbott

11:19

is referring there to her suspension from the

11:21

Parliamentary Labour Party. Kirste Armour

11:23

removed the whip from Abbott almost a

11:25

year ago, after she wrote a letter

11:27

to the Guardian saying that racism could

11:30

only be experienced by people of colour,

11:32

while minorities who are racialised as white

11:34

may experience prejudice. Abbott

11:36

immediately retracted that letter and

11:39

apologised. And yet the

11:41

whip still hasn't been returned to

11:43

her, a fact that even Labour

11:45

rights stalwart and former shadow chancellor

11:47

Ed Balls pointed out. For

11:49

Kirste Armour, she was suspended from the Parliamentary

11:51

Labour Party a year ago for saying something

11:54

which she probably shouldn't have said and she

11:56

apologized for it. But

12:00

actually, the fact that a year on, she's

12:02

still outside the parliamentary Labour Party, my

12:05

personal view is she should be brought back

12:07

following that apology, and she should be

12:09

supported and defended rather

12:11

than left on her own. That's what's happening at

12:14

the moment. The Labour Party

12:16

investigation into Abbott has still somehow

12:18

not concluded. And Abbott

12:20

herself said this in September. I

12:23

am the longest-serving black MP. There is a

12:25

widespread sentiment that as a black woman and

12:27

someone on the left of the party that

12:29

I will not get a fair hearing from

12:31

this Labour leadership. In

12:34

that context, it's more than a little

12:36

rich for Labour MPs and bigwigs to

12:38

now be calling out a Tory for

12:40

abusing Diane Abbott. But this is

12:43

what Keir Starmer had to say. Comments

12:45

about Diane Abbott are just abhorrent. Diane

12:49

has been a trailblazer. She

12:52

has paved the way for others. She's

12:55

probably faced more abuse than any

12:57

other politician over the years on

12:59

a sustained basis. And

13:01

I'm sorry, this apology this morning

13:03

that is pretending that what

13:06

was said wasn't racist or anything to do

13:08

with the fact she's a woman. I

13:10

don't buy that, I'm afraid. And I think

13:12

that it's time the Tory party called it

13:14

out and returned the money. Now,

13:16

I found that ridiculous. You know, where

13:19

there is political capital to be made,

13:21

Keir Starmer is talking about her being

13:23

a trailblazer. She's an extraordinary

13:25

person, but I won't give her the whip back. When

13:29

you can knock to the side, he'll sing our

13:31

praises. And yet in other

13:33

circumstances, she seemingly a liability doesn't even deserve

13:35

to be in the same party. Now,

13:38

Starmer's record on dealing with anti-black

13:40

racism isn't the best. Black

13:43

Labour MPs wrote to him last year

13:45

warning they were, quote, losing faith in

13:48

his efforts to tackle a hierarchy of

13:50

racism in the party. That's

13:53

a reference to the Bombshell Ford Report,

13:55

published in 2022. It found, quote, serious

13:57

political. problems

14:00

of discrimination in the operations of

14:02

the party. Labour

14:04

MP Jess Phillips criticizes

14:06

conservatives defending Hester's comments

14:09

by saying this, it is, if

14:12

it's indefensible, why try to defend it?

14:16

Conservatives are so afraid of calling out racism when

14:18

they're own do it because they want to be

14:20

seen as a little bit racist. This

14:22

wasn't a little bit. It's not

14:24

because they don't want to give the

14:26

money back, it's because they are worried

14:28

about offending racists. Now

14:31

this is the same Jess Phillips

14:33

who claimed, quote, I told Diane

14:35

Abbott to fuck off during a

14:37

row about feminism in 2015. Elsewhere,

14:41

Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting

14:44

said this about the

14:46

Hester affair. One

14:48

day when they have left office,

14:50

ministers like Mel Stride will regret

14:52

debasing themselves like this. It

14:55

does show that the Conservative Party is rotten

14:57

to its core and unfit for

15:00

office. Well here's the

15:02

thing, Wes Streeting knows

15:04

a thing or two about debasing

15:06

himself. In 2018,

15:08

Squawk Box reported this, in

15:11

a parliamentary corridor, Streeting is alleged to have

15:13

literally shouted in Miss Abbott's face, standing

15:16

toe to toe with her and screaming,

15:18

not my party, in front

15:20

of a number of onlookers. As

15:23

described, Streeting's behaviour is so intimidating that

15:25

he had to be physically steered away

15:27

from the labour, from venture. Look,

15:30

I have to say, if you behave like that in

15:32

a workplace, you should be suspended, you should be disciplined,

15:35

you should be punished. But of course, if the labour

15:37

leader, prior to 2020, Jeremy

15:40

Corbyn, did anything, if he tried

15:42

to have any kind of discipline you

15:44

would associate with a normal professional work

15:46

environment, he would be battered

15:48

from pillar to post by

15:51

the media. Michael, there's a few things

15:53

to unpack here. Obviously I don't want to steer

15:55

the conversation too far away from

15:57

the substance of what this idiot has said.

16:01

But at the same time, in particular,

16:03

Keir Starmer's comments really

16:06

struck me as so

16:08

extraordinarily opportunistic. You know,

16:10

here is an opportunity over the

16:12

course of several days to bash the Conservative Party,

16:15

so all of a sudden I'm going to sing

16:17

Diane Abbott's praises. He called her

16:19

a trailblazer, and yet he

16:22

can't even give her the benefit

16:24

of an expeditious process with

16:26

regards to her being disciplined. Diane Abbott has no

16:29

idea when she may or may not

16:31

be given the whip back some

16:33

way to treat a trailblazer, isn't it?

16:36

The thing with Labour investigations is it is very

16:38

un—they always take two years to investigate them,

16:40

and it's like we've all read the email,

16:42

right? So you

16:44

should be able to do the investigation within a week or so. I

16:47

suppose, you know, it's important to

16:49

say it's not inconsistent to say that

16:51

Diane Abbott is a trailblazer, that this

16:54

racism which has been directed at her

16:56

is appalling, and

16:59

that she sent a really quite

17:01

offensive letter, actually, to the observer, and

17:03

then apologized to it. And

17:05

it's not inconsistent to say, and therefore she shouldn't get the

17:07

whip back. Obviously, I want her to get the whip back.

17:11

I think she's apologized. I think there are

17:13

MPs who've done much worse. I

17:15

also have absolutely zero faith in the disciplinary procedures in

17:17

the Labour Party because I think it's pretty much a

17:19

factional stitch-up. But it's not—you know, Chias

17:22

Dahmer can stand there, and it's

17:24

not ridiculous for him to say, she's

17:27

a trailblazer, but she's made a mistake, which is so

17:29

big that I'm not going to let her back into

17:31

the party. And also, I'm absolutely repulsed

17:34

to see the racism which is being directed at

17:36

her. You

17:38

can hold those three positions. I

17:41

think we should be clear about that. As well with

17:43

the West treating the Jess Phillips case, I

17:45

suppose in my previous answer, I'm saying sometimes

17:48

it is difficult to know for

17:51

sure whether or not racism or

17:53

racial insensitivity has been a factor

17:56

in conflict or disagreement, I suppose,

17:58

in both the West. in

18:00

the Jess Phillips case, it is ambiguous.

18:03

And so for them to sort of say,

18:06

well, this Tory donor has said something which is clearly

18:08

racist just because they have had a previous disagreement

18:10

with Diana, but even if we don't like how

18:12

they behaved, again, it's not completely inconsistent.

18:15

So yeah, I would be reluctant to say, oh,

18:17

God, they haven't got a goddamn leg to stand

18:19

on because the things that

18:21

have happened in the Labour Party are quite

18:23

different to what this Tory donor has said.

18:25

And then the Conservative Party saying there's absolutely

18:27

nothing wrong with it, or if anything, it's

18:29

a little bit intemperate, but it's not racist

18:31

or sexist. So I just

18:34

want to separate my huge

18:36

distrust of the Labour Party

18:38

and my distrust of the disciplinary processes and

18:41

my solidarity with Diana, who I think has

18:43

been treated pretty appallingly by many people

18:45

within the Labour Party from sort

18:47

of saying, oh, they're all the same. No one's got a leg

18:49

to stand on. Do you

18:52

know what I mean? I think I

18:56

want to be consistent is what I'm saying. Well,

18:58

Michael, on the consistency point, you

19:02

know, if you look at the substance of

19:04

what was coming out in the Labour League

19:06

documents, there were Labour staffers coordinating with mainstream media

19:08

journalists who wanted to know where Diana but

19:10

was to effectively intimidate

19:12

her, persecute her.

19:15

And no, nobody was saying, they were saying some

19:17

pretty bad things, by the way, including about Clive

19:20

Lewis, nobody was saying anything on this level. But

19:23

I do find it extraordinary, Michael, that

19:25

you had a party apparatus, her own

19:27

side were coordinating a campaign

19:29

of malevolent persecution by the

19:31

media. And that's kind

19:33

of just pushed under the rug. And

19:36

you know, you have West Reading, Michael, Diana

19:38

now is 70 years old, you know, she

19:40

would have been in her late 60s when the episode

19:42

with West Reading happened. You know, you're

19:44

a bit younger than West Reading, I'm about the same

19:47

age. If you were being pulled

19:49

away by colleagues because you were screaming at

19:51

a woman in her late 60s, regardless of her

19:53

skin colour, I think you should

19:55

be ashamed, frankly. So him using those

19:58

words, I find frankly ridiculous. But

20:00

I think you're right. My

20:02

goodness. It's almost hard

20:04

to believe this story, right? And like

20:07

you say, finally, the Tories who say,

20:09

well, this isn't racist. Imagine if Ash

20:11

Sarkar had said, I see this

20:13

white guy on TV. It makes me want to hate

20:15

all white people. My God, that

20:18

would be played 24 hours a day, seven days

20:20

a week across all the, across

20:22

the whole mainstream media,

20:24

OBC phonings, James O'Brien breakdowns, front pages

20:27

on the sun. It

20:29

would all be there. Next story. Haiti's

20:32

unelected prime minister, Ariel Henry,

20:34

has resigned after violence rocked

20:36

the country's capital Port-au-Prince and

20:39

caused a state emergency to

20:41

be declared. On

20:43

the 29th of February, a series of attacks

20:46

carried up by armed groups took place on

20:48

government buildings and police stations in the capital

20:50

and led to the release of 4,000 prisoners

20:54

from the country's jails. In

20:56

the days that followed, the disparate

20:59

armed groups joined forces to oust

21:01

prime minister, promising genocide if Henri

21:03

did not step down. The

21:05

United Nations estimates that thousands of people

21:08

have been killed in the violence with

21:10

hundreds of thousands displaced. There

21:12

have also been widespread reports of

21:14

rape, torture and kidnaps. Henri

21:17

is currently in Puerto Rico, blocked from

21:19

returning to Haiti by the closure of

21:22

the airport and threats of violence. He

21:25

made this statement following his resignation.

21:28

For more than a week, our country

21:30

has experienced an increase in acts of

21:32

violence of all kinds perpetrated against the

21:34

population, assassinations, attacks against

21:37

law enforcement, looting, systematic destruction

21:39

of public and private buildings.

21:43

We deplore the numerous losses of human life.

21:45

The government that I lead cannot remain indifferent

21:47

to the situation. As I

21:49

have always said, no sacrifice too

21:51

great for our common homeland, Haiti.

21:54

I'm asking all Haitians to remain calm

21:56

and do everything they can for peace

21:58

and stability to come back. back as fast

22:01

as possible. Haitian

22:04

leaders have now met in Jamaica to

22:06

form a transitional government, but it's not

22:08

clear that's going to satisfy the armed

22:11

groups. Jimmy Barbecue

22:13

Chirizia is a former policeman

22:15

and now Haiti's most powerful

22:17

paramilitary leader. He told

22:20

reporters that the international community

22:22

backed a transitional government. It

22:24

would quote, plunge Haiti into

22:26

further chaos. He added this.

22:29

We Haitians have to decide who is going to

22:31

be the head of the country and what model

22:34

of government we want. We're

22:36

also going to figure out how to get

22:38

Haiti out of the misery it's in now.

22:41

It's not clear how seriously to

22:43

take that statement. The armed groups

22:45

certainly seem to have political aims,

22:47

but they're also reported to be

22:50

funded by Haitian oligarchs based abroad

22:52

and armed with US weapons. Chirizia

22:55

is right to point out that Haitians

22:57

have never been free to choose how

22:59

their country is run. Ariel

23:02

Henri came to power in

23:04

2021 following the assassination of

23:06

Jovanel Mois. His

23:08

role was supposed to be temporary,

23:10

but elections that were promised never

23:13

materialized. In fact, Haiti has

23:16

not had an election since

23:18

2016 and under Henri's watch,

23:20

poverty in the world's poorest

23:23

country increased dramatically. Last

23:26

year, 97% of households in

23:28

some areas suffered from severe

23:30

hunger. That was according to

23:32

aid agencies. Meanwhile, 280,000 children

23:36

under six are expected

23:38

to suffer acute malnutrition this

23:41

year. But it

23:43

would be unfair to place all of the

23:45

blame for that situation at the feet of

23:47

the most recent prime minister. Overall,

23:50

he's just the latest in a long

23:52

line of Western-backed leaders who have stood

23:55

in the way of self-determination for the

23:57

Haitian population. Jean

24:00

Bertrand Aristide became Haiti's

24:02

first ever democratically

24:04

elected president until he was ousted

24:07

by a military-led coup the following

24:09

year. In 1994,

24:11

he was restored to power following

24:14

the collapse of the military regime

24:16

under US-led pressure. But

24:19

in 2004, right-wing paramilitaries backed

24:21

by the US, France, and

24:23

Canada invaded the country

24:26

from the neighboring Dominican Republic.

24:29

They ransacked the country and

24:31

forced Aristide into exile. The

24:34

2004 coup happened after Aristide

24:36

demanded $21 billion in reparations

24:39

from France. That

24:42

was for the money Haitians paid to the

24:44

country over the course of, get this, 120

24:49

years to buy their own freedom

24:51

from French slavery. And that

24:53

coup was followed by more than

24:56

a decade of foreign intervention. UN

24:58

soldiers stationed in Haiti committed abuses

25:00

against the civilian population, while

25:03

foreign governments repeatedly interfered in

25:05

every attempt to exercise

25:07

democracy. In 2010,

25:10

Haiti held an election following a

25:12

devastating earthquake. Jemima

25:14

Pierre is a Haitian-American professor

25:16

at the University of British

25:18

Columbia. She told Democracy

25:20

Now how those elections went. One

25:23

of the key things that happened is in

25:26

2010, after the earthquake in

25:28

Haiti that killed hundreds of thousands,

25:30

where the US pushed the sitting

25:32

president, René Preval, to have elections.

25:34

And in the weekend leaks papers

25:36

revealed to us later

25:39

that Hillary Clinton actually flew

25:41

to Haiti and changed the

25:43

election results, where Michel Martelly

25:45

of the PHTK political party

25:47

did not make the first

25:49

round, but the US forced

25:51

the Haitian election council to

25:53

actually put him in

25:55

the final in the second round. And

25:58

so establishing the PHTK. Michel

26:00

Martelly, a neo-dividerist,

26:03

as Haiti's president with under 20%

26:05

of the people voting, with the

26:07

largest political party in Haiti, La

26:09

Vala, not being able to participate,

26:11

we set the stage for what

26:13

we see today. The

26:15

US, along with allies in the region, appears

26:18

once again set to determine Haiti's

26:20

future. The Secretary of State,

26:22

Anthony Blinken, has traveled to the region

26:24

to meet with CARICOM heads, that's the

26:26

political union of American and Caribbean nations.

26:29

Looking ahead of that visit, State

26:31

Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said this.

26:34

A proposal that is on the table that

26:36

CARICOM has developed over the past several

26:39

days in consultation with Haitian stakeholders

26:41

and consultation with the United States

26:44

would expedite a political transition through the

26:46

creation of a broad-based, independent presidential college

26:49

to steer the country toward the deployment

26:51

of a multinational security support mission and

26:53

free and fair elections, and that's what

26:55

I expect the Secretary will be discussing

26:58

with his colleagues. Jemima

27:00

Pierre gave this assessment of that

27:02

plan's chance of success. Now

27:05

CARICOM is playing a different role, where

27:07

they're bringing the US, France, and Canada,

27:09

the people who did the original thing,

27:12

to take our leaders again. And so

27:14

the problem is, if this goes on,

27:17

and if they don't take into account other solutions

27:20

that Haitians have been putting together, you know,

27:22

early 2021, you had La Familla Vales

27:26

come up with Sali Piblique, which means that

27:28

we need to start over and change the

27:31

system. We had the Montana

27:33

Accord. We had the local groups that

27:36

actually had a solution before the

27:38

Moise assassination. The US government was

27:41

trying to protect Moise and

27:43

basically ignored all these local solutions. And

27:45

so now they cannot say that they're

27:47

here to help Haiti, as much as

27:49

trying to figure out how to put

27:52

it in place, another unpopular

27:54

and illegal government. And

27:56

so then we'll have the same problem a

27:58

few years later. down the line. Haiti

28:01

now has every appearance of a failed

28:03

state. There is not a single

28:06

elected government official anywhere in the country.

28:08

It's parliament, justice system and basic services

28:11

are not functioning. Economic growth stands at

28:13

zero while inflation has been over 15%

28:15

for three years

28:17

straight. And all

28:20

of that is the result

28:22

of decades of foreign interference,

28:24

UN occupation and anti-democratic governments,

28:27

leaving its population of 12

28:29

million people facing a deeply

28:31

uncertain future. This

28:34

is a really interesting piece of

28:36

news from our top story. Diana

28:38

has reported the conservative party's biggest

28:40

ever donor to the police that's

28:43

being reported in the independence. As

28:46

I said, I don't know substantially

28:49

what that means. The

28:51

political optics certainly aren't good if you

28:53

reported the police. It'll be interesting to

28:55

see any other Tory

28:58

MPs defending him if there is

29:01

any kind of investigation into

29:03

this. I call him gentleman, but he's

29:05

really not. He's an absolute scandal. Next

29:08

story. In a State of

29:10

the Union address last week, President Biden

29:12

announced plans to build a temporary port

29:14

to get aid into Gaza. Uncle

29:16

Sam to the rescue. We may be

29:19

selling F-35s to Israel and giving them

29:21

billions in aid, but we can't

29:23

just leave starving Palestinian kids to die. Yet,

29:26

according to the Jerusalem Post,

29:28

the person behind that proposal

29:31

was Benjamin Netanyahu. The

29:33

Jerusalem Post writes this, a

29:36

senior diplomatic source said Netanyahu took

29:38

the initiative to establish maritime humanitarian

29:40

aid for the civilian population in

29:43

the Gaza Strip in collaboration with

29:45

the Biden administration. On

29:47

October 22nd, two weeks following

29:49

the war's outbreak, Netanyahu discussed

29:51

with President Biden the concept

29:53

of, quote, delivering humanitarian aid

29:55

to Gaza via the sea,

29:57

contingent on Israeli inspection. in

30:00

Cyprus. Then, October

30:02

31st, Prime Minister Netanyahu

30:04

outlined this strategy. The

30:07

Cypriot President, Nikos Christolidis,

30:09

the source added, in

30:11

addition, the matter was revisited

30:13

on January 19th, since several months

30:15

later, during a dialogue between Prime

30:18

Minister Netanyahu and the President of

30:20

the United States. When Netanyahu

30:22

proposed, according to the source, quote,

30:25

I want to suggest setting up a

30:27

team to explore maritime supply through Cyprus

30:29

after a thorough inspection of all

30:32

goods. Now, here

30:34

are Joe Biden's precise words

30:36

announcing the plans during that

30:38

State of the Union. Okay.

30:42

The United States has been

30:44

leading international efforts to get

30:46

more humanitarian assistance into Gaza.

30:49

Tonight, I'm directing the US military

30:51

to lead an emergency

30:53

mission to establish a temporary peer

30:55

in the Mediterranean on the Gaza

30:57

coast that can receive large ships

30:59

carrying food, water, medicine, and temporary

31:02

shelters. This temporary peer

31:04

would enable a massive increase in

31:06

the amount of humanitarian assistance getting

31:08

into Gaza every day, but Israel

31:10

must also do its part.

31:14

Interesting. Israel

31:16

must also do its part, and

31:18

apparently, the US has

31:20

been leading. Really? It's

31:23

leading by following the proposals of

31:25

Benjamin Netanyahu, the guy, arguably

31:28

responsible, I think, inarguably responsible

31:30

for overseeing war crimes in

31:33

Gaza. But Israel

31:35

must also do its part. Yet they're proposing

31:37

they'll do their part, which is

31:39

to check everything, which is

31:41

to effectively maintain a siege beyond

31:44

this one little exception. If

31:47

this source is to be believed, the entire

31:49

proposal is Israel's. Now,

31:51

this story has credibility because Israel's

31:54

Foreign Minister, Israel Katz, floated

31:56

this exact idea while

31:58

meeting with... the EU officials

32:00

and diplomats in January. He even apparently

32:03

showed them a video of the proposal.

32:06

What is more, Katz previously dropped similar plans

32:08

for a floating island off the coast of

32:10

Gaza while serving as transport minister in 2017.

32:15

This would be patrolled by Israel,

32:17

allowing supplies, energy and water to

32:19

reach the territory. And

32:21

naturally, Katz wanted the international

32:23

community to pay for all of

32:25

this, by which he

32:28

means the European and US

32:30

taxpayer. Michael, what

32:32

are you making of this story? It's

32:34

one of those, you just think, my goodness. I

32:37

know that we're on the left, you're gonna be

32:39

critical of the US's role in international affairs, but

32:42

I didn't realize it was so

32:44

bad that the Israeli prime minister

32:46

now fundamentally authors the centerpiece policy

32:48

for an American president state of

32:50

the union address. The mind boggles.

32:53

It's interesting, isn't it? Because sometimes we're talking

32:55

about how Israel really wants to starve

32:58

the garbens in a sort of act of ethnic cleansing to get

33:00

them all to leave. At the same time, they seem to be

33:03

talking to the United States about building temporary piers.

33:05

And sort of those two things seem somewhat inconsistent.

33:08

Why doesn't any of you want to get food

33:10

in there if he's trying to starve them? And

33:12

I think there probably are kind

33:15

of different, different

33:18

intentions that are all sort of acting towards

33:20

the broader goal, which is Israel

33:22

basically wants to have nothing to do with

33:25

the garbens. It wants them off their hands. Now that

33:27

could either be by kicking them out of Gaza, or

33:29

it could be by saying Gaza

33:31

is now the responsibility of other

33:34

countries. It's got nothing to do with us,

33:36

right? So, and

33:38

I suppose you could see this as a way of

33:41

them trying to set this precedent whereby it's

33:43

not just aid organizations that are giving, you

33:45

know, servicing people

33:48

in Gaza, but actually international governments. Because I

33:50

think one thing the Israelis have sort of

33:52

been proposing is the saying, we want to

33:54

basically completely destroy Hamas, and

33:57

then we'll create this sort of buffer. zone,

34:00

which means that we can

34:02

basically forget about the Gazans because it's going to

34:04

be very difficult for us ever to face any

34:06

consequences for this ongoing occupation which we're managing. And

34:10

also, by the way, can you Americans

34:12

and Europeans sort of try and manage

34:14

Gaza with some money from the Emiratis

34:16

so that we can basically just say

34:18

it's nothing to do with us?

34:21

And then when sort of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International put

34:23

out, I mean, not that Israel cares, but

34:25

when these organizations put out their reports that

34:27

say Gaza is a terrible

34:29

place to live and it's not getting enough food, Israel can say,

34:32

well, it's not our problem. You

34:34

guys now control Gaza. So

34:36

I mean, they want Gaza off

34:38

their hands. Ideally, they'd

34:40

want some of the land, but obviously, we know they're much

34:42

more interested in the land when it comes to the West

34:45

Bank because the West Bank has sort of more

34:47

value both in terms of the

34:50

land itself, sort of the agricultural capacity, but

34:52

then also the religious significance of

34:54

the West Bank is more important. One of the reasons

34:57

why sort of Sharon

35:00

gave Gaza, well, withdrew settlements

35:02

from Gaza was because he was like, well,

35:04

Gaza is where we can maybe put the

35:06

Palestinians and then we'll take their land from

35:09

the West Bank. It was supposed to solve

35:11

a demographic question. So this could be part

35:13

of the Israelis basically trying to coax the

35:15

Americans in to say, can you sort

35:18

Gaza so we can just wash our

35:20

hands of it after

35:22

we've completely destroyed Hamas in any military capacity

35:24

they have? So this would mean that Israel could

35:26

say, you know, America,

35:29

if you're going to run Gaza, you've also got to make sure that Hamas

35:31

can never come to be again. So

35:35

in a way, they want to have their cake and eat

35:37

it, right? Get their war aims and then get someone else

35:40

to do the rebuilding. I think they want this off their

35:42

hands to some degree. One,

35:44

their cake and eat it. Israeli politicians, well, I

35:46

never. Just on what you're

35:48

saying there, Michael, Israel Katz, the person who's

35:50

proposed this, is an

35:53

annexationist. He would like Israel to absorb the

35:55

West Bank and he would like Egypt to

35:57

have Gaza. So I suspect you're right in

35:59

that diagnosis. long term, the

36:01

plan is to probably create a really extensive

36:04

security buffer zone in Gaza. Maybe

36:06

that would be a third of the territory. And

36:08

the other two thirds would be administered by the

36:11

Egyptians, like you say, they probably don't

36:13

care, and the quote-unquote international community, from

36:16

the Emiratis to the Europeans, the Americans, would

36:19

help to rebuild Gaza. And

36:22

of course, this will be sold to us as

36:24

somehow a noble humanitarian endeavor. And who

36:26

knows? As you know, in 30 years' time, you rebuild it all

36:28

again, it gets blown up again. And

36:31

we keep on going through these motions. And yet

36:33

no major politician in the

36:35

US, all the UK, in terms

36:38

of the governing parties, of course, will

36:40

say this is ridiculous, it's absurd,

36:42

we're not doing it. Now

36:45

emergency relief isn't possible if you can't guarantee

36:48

the safety of medical and health care workers.

36:50

So this next story has even

36:53

greater significance. Palestinian medical

36:55

staff have told the BBC

36:57

they were detained, blindfolded, forced

37:00

to strip, and repeatedly beaten by

37:02

Israeli troops after a raid at

37:04

their hospital. The BBC

37:06

reports this. Ahmed

37:08

Abu Sabah, a doctor at NASA hospital,

37:11

described being held for a week in

37:13

detention, where he said muzzled dogs

37:15

were set upon him and his hand was

37:17

broken by an Israeli soldier. His

37:20

account closely matches those of two

37:22

other medics who wanted to remain anonymous

37:24

for fear of reprisals. They

37:26

told the BBC they were humiliated,

37:28

beaten, doused with cold water, and

37:31

forced to kneel in uncomfortable positions

37:33

for hours. They said

37:35

they were detained for days before being

37:37

released. Now just

37:39

to be clear, what's being described

37:41

there is torture under any international

37:43

definition. Extensive physical violence

37:46

and stress positions absolutely

37:49

comprise torture. At

37:52

one point Sabah also believed he was

37:54

about to be executed. Here's what he

37:57

told the BBC. It

38:00

was like a gallows. I heard sounds of ropes,

38:02

so I thought I was going to be executed.

38:05

After that they broke a bottle, and it, the glass,

38:07

cut my leg, and they left it to bleed. Then

38:10

they started bringing doctor after doctor in and

38:12

started putting them next to each other. I

38:14

was hearing their names and their

38:16

voices. In response, the

38:19

IDF told the BBC it quote,

38:21

does not and has not carried

38:23

out mock executions of detainees and

38:25

rejects such claims. Is

38:27

Ahmed Abu Saba speaking to the BBC?

39:27

He said that torture is strictly prohibited by

39:29

them, but beyond that they've made

39:31

no comment. Now these claims

39:33

are even more credible because there is

39:35

video footage of men stripped their underwear

39:37

in front of the hospital's

39:40

emergency building with their hands behind their

39:42

heads. Here's that shocking video.

39:45

One can reasonably infer their medical staff

39:47

because as you can see, there are

39:49

medical robes lying in front of some

39:51

of them. A detainee being

39:54

transported in a hospital bed appears to

39:56

have their hands found. In

39:59

response to this story. Dr. Lawrence Hill Corthorn,

40:01

co-director of the Center for International Law at

40:03

the University of Bristol said this, It goes

40:05

against what has for a long time been

40:07

a very fundamental idea in the law that

40:09

applies in armed conflict, which is

40:12

that hospitals and medical staff are protected. The

40:14

fact that they treat nationals of the enemy

40:16

side should not in any

40:18

way undermine that protection. Along

40:21

with Dr. Abu Sabah, the BBC interviewed

40:23

two other medics and their

40:25

stories were corroborated by separate

40:27

sources. Families of five

40:29

other medics at the same hospital have

40:31

told the BBC their loved ones remain

40:34

missing. Meanwhile, the International Committee

40:36

of the Red Cross has confirmed

40:38

to the BBC it has received

40:40

dozens of phone calls from people

40:42

who say family members, including medics

40:45

at NASA hospital, are now missing.

40:48

Obviously, this has a profound impact

40:50

on the ability of the hospital

40:52

to tend to patients. And

40:55

those staff allowed to remain at

40:57

NASA have described being ordered to

40:59

move seriously ill patients between buildings,

41:02

being taken away from their duties

41:04

to be interrogated and assigned patients

41:06

whose cases they were not trained

41:08

to deal with. As

41:10

a result, multiple medics told the BBC that

41:12

13 patients died

41:14

in the days following Israel's

41:18

takeover of the hospital.

41:21

Michael, again, I say

41:23

that word a lot, extraordinary story. What's

41:26

really interesting here for me is that

41:28

the BBC have done everything.

41:31

They've gone absolutely overboard almost with

41:33

the amount of data. They've got

41:35

multiple video accounts, multiple witness testimonies.

41:37

You know, they've got people saying

41:40

that dozens of other

41:42

people are saying that people are

41:45

missing. So we know that people are missing.

41:47

We clearly know that somebody has

41:49

had at least one hand broken. And

41:51

we know that people were being held

41:53

in front of the hospital, some of which were medical

41:56

staff naked just in their underwear. A huge amount

41:58

of people are missing, and that's what we're saying. So, I'm sure that of

42:00

information there, Israel

42:02

not really saying anything beyond the fact that we

42:04

don't use torture.

42:07

What do you make of it? Particularly the fact

42:09

that BBC have really gone in such

42:12

depth on this investigation. We

42:14

have seen over and over again,

42:16

many mainstream media outlets

42:19

in some of their prominent framing, who found it

42:22

deeply, let's

42:24

say, overly

42:26

sympathetic, let's say, or overly

42:29

credulous towards messages put

42:31

out by the Israeli side. But then every

42:33

now and again, we do get these reports

42:36

from the BBC. I mean, there have been a number from the BBC, but

42:38

we've even seen them from CNN outlets, which

42:40

is historically, and throughout

42:42

most of this conflict have been fairly pro-Israel.

42:45

They do do investigations, and when they do

42:47

the investigations, they find out that the Israelis

42:50

have done some atrocities and aren't

42:52

being particularly honest about it. I suppose just

42:55

we've talked about hospitals a lot since

42:57

October the 7th and Israel's bombardment of

43:00

Gaza. I just think if you

43:02

think of sort of the sequence of talking points

43:04

when it comes to hospitals, you've got the Al-Atli

43:06

hospitals. That was the

43:09

first time that we were all talking about hospitals because there

43:11

was this shelling of

43:14

people outside the Al-Atli hospital.

43:17

Then we heard the Israeli sort of say, oh, we wouldn't

43:19

possibly do that. We would never ever shell

43:22

a hospital. It must have been a

43:25

misfired Hamas rocket. Then we've got all the

43:27

various sort of different perspectives

43:29

and different arguments and theories

43:32

when it came to how that explosion happened.

43:35

But then within a month

43:37

or so, you've got pretty much

43:39

every hospital in or within a couple of

43:41

months, every hospital in Gaza has by that

43:43

point been subject to shelling or raided or

43:46

put under siege. Then suddenly,

43:48

the narrative has changed. It's not, oh, we

43:50

would never attack a hospital. It's, oh, of

43:52

course you're attacking the hospitals. That's because they've got

43:54

loads of Hamas operatives under them. Then

43:57

They get control of the hospitals. It Turns

43:59

out there aren't. Any huge command centers

44:01

might be a couple of tunnels here all day

44:03

but they're in this big command center. On the

44:05

of it was the our Shifa Hospital. That period

44:07

was that and. Look. At

44:09

each time I thought we've almost have forgotten cause

44:12

we moved on an hour on this position whether

44:14

literally torturing doctors. So. We

44:16

would never been a hospital would bomb in

44:19

the hospitals but only because we want to

44:21

get to the the the Hamas headquarters underneath

44:23

them. Now. I mean you'd

44:25

expect decide we'd never talk to doctors but it seems like

44:27

they're not denying as that and now we're literally taught from

44:29

doctors and at either know how the hell they're going to

44:31

have to buy this as by the doctors even though they've

44:33

got these medical qualifications and of have been. You're

44:36

doing. Amputations and with with no anesthetic

44:38

valve and be made as a matter of

44:40

course we are taught that they were I'm

44:42

Us A Dinner. Where.

44:44

Will this end? And.

44:46

Yet. You. Wouldn't have put

44:49

it would go this far in our if if

44:51

someone is that when we haven't is debate about

44:53

about the hospital and ever present and where where

44:55

would have come from different video analysis Within four

44:57

months we can have analysis which is showing that

44:59

Israel's literally just torturing. Doctors. Going

45:01

into hospital and torture doctors? It's just. Where.

45:04

Is that? where can they sent? Me:

45:07

I really does the fireplace you have. This

45:09

is me Mama sweat Israeli say we have

45:11

the most. Moral. I'm in the

45:13

world. The idea for the muffin small

45:15

army of the world's like police is

45:17

the least moral army and wild arms

45:20

in Iraq, Russia, and Ukraine as on

45:22

many unsavory things occupy Us and Uk

45:24

forces in Iraq. To. Leave us

45:26

of is is more of them. The. Same.

45:29

But taught. From Medical staff? I mean.

45:32

Not. Mine and off in front of a

45:34

hospital and and that subsequently leading to patients.

45:38

I. Mean, I don't. I

45:40

don't think I can recall that coming Sunday

45:42

in some the military operations by a quick

45:44

question how and of Israel's in the Middle

45:46

East but you know they're a close ally

45:48

of the U S U K that as

45:50

thirty five that the first of crunched use

45:53

of thirty five a combat I can be

45:55

classified as so conquest the power. Just

45:58

incredible. Incredible.

46:01

I'm going back to that top Story.

46:04

Sue next surprise surprise. See Like spokesperson

46:06

have now said has the comments are

46:09

racists? I wonder if I had anything

46:11

to do with Diane Abbott reporting those

46:13

comments to the police? his the quotes

46:15

from Broken by Kate Mccann on twitter.

46:18

At the comments allegedly made by Franks

46:20

has that were racist and wrong he

46:22

has now rightly oppose Us Defense says

46:24

any a legit but he's really opposes

46:27

accounts for the events caused and were

46:29

remorse he showed. It should be accepted.

46:31

Walk to class. he gives us a

46:33

million pounds. The promises clatters. No place

46:35

for racism, public life and as the

46:37

first precise and prime minister leading we

46:40

must ethnically diverse cabinets not history. The

46:42

Uk is living proof of that fact.

46:44

Wow. What? Of Asian. Is

46:46

a Britain's the Right Now He said Britain,

46:49

the Races Country. They said the guy who's

46:51

the biggest funder in the history of the

46:53

Conservative party might arise as common as he

46:55

did. Unbelievable.

46:59

And believable. I mean, these people

47:01

are just. Ridiculous. You

47:03

know there's been so greece me as once through

47:05

we didn't cupboards day of a potential on. Real.

47:08

On the part in Rebel they can

47:10

use Bastone said he's not that popular.

47:12

Buddies believe it'll still the most popular

47:14

conservative politician the country left rodgers more

47:16

popular according soon you got any? Are

47:18

they going to use Boris and and

47:20

David Cameron? You think anti. Cameron.

47:23

Says of Lib Dem sorry waivers

47:25

and the South Boris Johnson's Abraxas

47:27

here votes is. Okay,

47:30

My. Work and then you see

47:33

nonsense like this and. I.

47:36

Think these guys Really? Are. Rappolt.

47:39

Beyond. Even our comrades in here and of

47:41

our media. Sophie

47:44

was from Sky News recently sat down

47:46

with his dharma for one on one

47:48

interview. Or. Much of that

47:50

conversation focused on stomach person's story.

47:52

It's so rules so some moments

47:55

of plus cause substance. in

47:57

particular the labour leader was quizzed about

47:59

whether his numbers add up.

48:02

I want you to be honest with people. What are you

48:04

going to do? Are you going to become the austerity prime

48:06

minister if you win the election? It would be

48:08

an awful inheritance if we're privileged

48:10

enough to come into power. They've damaged the economy,

48:13

they've damaged our public services, and we have to

48:15

change that. I ran a public

48:17

service, so I don't need anybody to tell

48:19

me how important it is that our public

48:21

services are properly supported and properly funded. We

48:24

have to ensure that we've got an economy

48:27

that is thriving, because at the bottom of

48:30

all of this is the fact that the economy has been stagnant

48:32

for 14 years. I know you want to grow the economy, but

48:34

that's not going to happen on day one. I want Sheffield Wednesday

48:36

to win the Premier League. I know it's not going to happen

48:38

this season. But there's a lot of things we can do very

48:40

quickly. They're changing the planning regulations and rules

48:42

to be done very, very quickly. Oh, come on.

48:44

Councils are going bust. The National Wealth Fund. Councils

48:46

are going bust now. Yes. There's a five and

48:48

a half year, and I know you'll care about

48:50

this, there's a five and a half year average

48:52

weight from a rate being committed to that person

48:54

seeing justice. What are you going

48:57

to do straight away if you're in number 10?

48:59

Be honest. Are you going to borrow more?

49:01

Are we going to enact austerity? Where

49:04

we are going to be able to put

49:06

money into our public services, we've been clear

49:08

that we'll do that. So when it comes

49:10

to NHS, two million reduction in the waiting

49:12

lists by the scheme that we've got to

49:14

work 24 seven with our schools. I'm

49:18

not talking about the initial. We can put

49:20

more teachers into our schools than what we

49:22

needed. I assess is 20 billion

49:24

pounds in public services and you're not being

49:26

honest about what you're going to do. This

49:28

is your chance. Tell people. We

49:31

need to ensure that the economy is growing. We can

49:33

turn that around. It's not going to happen on day

49:35

one. Please just hear me

49:37

out. It's not. You're telling me it's

49:39

not. Planning can be changed very, very

49:41

quickly. That will have a massive impact

49:43

on growth. The second thing

49:45

is our National Wealth Fund, which will bring

49:48

in private investment. I talk to private investors

49:50

all of the time and they

49:52

say to me, Kia, we've got the money

49:54

to invest right now in your country, but

49:57

we're not going to do that because we don't see the

49:59

stability. We don't see the conditions in which

50:01

we're going to invest. Notice

50:03

there that Stalin talks about the National

50:05

Wealth Fund, which by the way, will

50:08

need money. You can't just have a

50:10

National Wealth Fund. We'll invest in places, but we won't capitalize

50:12

it with any money. He conflates

50:14

the National Wealth Fund with stability. They're

50:16

two separate things that care. And

50:19

that really underscores how this was

50:21

a completely meandering,

50:24

meaningless answer. Five

50:28

years from somebody being raped

50:30

to getting justice. Five years. What will you do? I'll

50:33

change planning laws. Okay.

50:36

The summer proceeded to talk about the scale of

50:38

the challenge Labour stands to inherit. We

50:40

are going to inherit a really badly

50:42

damaged economy after 14 years of failure. Our

50:44

job is to pick it up, stand it

50:47

back up and move our country forward. And

50:49

I'm not going to shy away from that.

50:51

We'll provide easy answers to that. Or not

50:53

any answer. We've got to grow our economy.

50:55

Now you may say that's not an answer

50:57

you like. I say it's the only answer.

50:59

It's a long time answer, but it's not

51:01

telling me what you're going to do. Well,

51:03

I don't think that it is

51:05

going to take that long to get our economy

51:07

going. I think we can turn it around very, very

51:10

quickly. What I'm not going to do is

51:12

make the mistake of saying that or

51:15

pretending there are easy

51:17

answers, unfunded spending

51:20

commitments, are what Liz

51:22

Trust installed on the country. We're all

51:24

paying the price. Last week you saw

51:26

in that budget at the very end,

51:28

staggeringly, the Chancellor announced £46 billion

51:32

of an unfunded commitment to get rid

51:34

of national insurance. We're not going to

51:36

make that mistake because

51:38

in the end who pays the price for that?

51:41

It's working people. And I'm not going to allow

51:43

that to happen under a Labour government. It's

51:45

really important that we're honest about what Labour

51:47

stands to inherit. That's pretty much the only

51:50

moment, I think, of insight from Keir Starmer

51:52

over the whole AC Minute interview, particularly

51:55

after the latest budget. Indeed, following

51:57

that budget last week, Citibank... American

52:00

banks, said Britain would struggle to achieve

52:02

its growth targets and that productivity

52:04

growth would remain at around 0.5% If

52:08

productivity doesn't go up, growth doesn't go

52:10

up, taxes don't go up, you get

52:13

the picture. That's enough

52:15

to worsen the borrowing outlook by around 30 to

52:17

35 billion

52:19

pounds if Citibank are correct.

52:22

In fact, city economist Benjamin

52:24

Nabarro said the UK could

52:26

be quote, fiscally offside by

52:28

around 50 to 60

52:30

billion pounds falling

52:32

to 15 to 20 billion if

52:35

bonds rally as we currently expect.

52:37

In other words, best-case

52:39

scenario, Hunt's numbers are out

52:41

by 15 billion

52:43

pounds. So it's

52:46

no surprise that the Revolution

52:48

Foundation called that budget fiscal

52:51

fiction. Then

52:54

there's the fact that dozens of councils

52:56

around the country face going bankrupt. It's

52:58

already happening in Birmingham. So

53:01

even just to keep us where we presently

53:03

are, which isn't a great place, a Labour

53:06

government would have to find tens

53:08

of billions of extra cash. That's

53:10

before investing in the NHS or

53:12

building infrastructure. Now

53:15

it's not all bad. For instance,

53:17

a Labour can reverse the recent

53:19

national insurance cuts by the Tories.

53:22

National insurance went down from 12 to

53:24

10 percent. It'll now go down to

53:26

8 percent. That's a start. I mean,

53:29

there's one problem with that. They've

53:31

claimed they won't do it. And

53:34

on additional money going to the NHS,

53:37

which Keir Starmer talked about there, it's

53:39

okay. That was coming from

53:42

a tax on non-doms. The Tories have

53:44

just nicked that tax and it's paying

53:46

for the national insurance cuts. Deeply

53:50

unserious responses from a deeply

53:52

unserious man. And I really

53:55

sympathise with Sophie Ridge when she says,

53:58

come on. He's saying... there

54:00

are no easy answers, there were

54:02

no answers. Michael, what's

54:05

your read on that interview in Keir Starmer's

54:08

two minutes there really, which I think in

54:10

many ways the most revealing two minutes he's

54:13

offered so far in terms of how he'll govern. It's

54:16

good she got him to be explicit about

54:18

what the plan is. So the plan is

54:20

basically, we

54:23

do forget as well actually, because not

54:25

much extra money for public services, but as

54:28

the IFS have shown, what the current budget

54:30

from the Tories implies and if Labour are

54:32

going to go along with those spending plans,

54:34

actually we're going to see another 20 million

54:36

pounds in cuts to unprotected services.

54:39

So that's not health or

54:41

education. So there will be

54:44

further austerity if Labour

54:47

do what they say they're going to do. In

54:49

terms of the longer term issue, the five

54:51

year plan, she

54:53

has got them to explicitly say our growth plan

54:56

is this. Our growth plan is

54:58

planning reform. Our growth plan

55:00

is a national wealth fund, which

55:02

won't really be capitalized with much

55:04

public money, but Keir Starmer is

55:07

assured that international investors will pump

55:09

enough money into the economy to

55:11

make that happen because

55:14

of stability. So those are the two ones,

55:17

aren't they? And I'd like to see that

55:19

modeled really, because before it was a bit, it's

55:21

less vague than it used to be. So we want

55:23

growth and we want growth and we're going to get

55:25

there by planning reform and we're going to get there

55:27

by having some international investment because we offer stability.

55:33

Can we see that fleshed out? Can we see

55:35

some modeling? Can we see an

55:37

academic paper or a paper from a

55:39

think tank that really does

55:42

suggest that those two policies, there

55:44

are only two policies, particularly ambitious

55:47

plan, but these two policies, could

55:49

that really up growth by

55:51

1% a year or

55:53

an amount which would be significant enough that

55:56

you can keep to the same fiscal rules

55:58

whilst not having a completely collapse. the justice

56:00

system could be cut. Local councils, by the

56:02

way, those are both things which are outside

56:04

of those protected areas. So

56:08

those would expect those 20 billion pounds in

56:10

annual cuts would be expected to hit local

56:12

authorities and justice. So yeah,

56:15

we're closer to, I don't want to call

56:17

it a plan because I think that would

56:19

be overstating it. We're closer to some honesty

56:21

about what the promise

56:23

is. How can we see

56:26

any particular reason why we should

56:28

believe that's remotely plausible, that those

56:30

two policies would lead to enough

56:32

growth that public services

56:34

aren't still due to collapse?

56:37

I think that's right. But what I would say,

56:39

Michael, is that look, Keir

56:42

Starmer is clearly moving to a place now where

56:44

he's not offering the

56:47

moon on a stick. But

56:50

like I said earlier, I think just stand

56:52

still. You're probably going to have

56:54

to reverse these national insurance tax cuts, which by

56:56

the way, that's very easy to do because it's

56:59

only just been sort of people aren't assuming that

57:01

money's there. And that's a lot of

57:03

money. You're looking at tens of billions of pounds from that. And

57:06

by the way, I think they'll do that. I think they're going to

57:08

have to do it. And I

57:10

find this whole sort of argument

57:12

so stupid. We're not going

57:14

to lie to people. You're going to have to increase

57:17

some taxes from somewhere. You are lying to people. And

57:19

if you don't, it goes back to

57:21

your point about local government, Michael, council

57:24

taxes go up. Council taxes will

57:26

go up. If you're not going to increase taxes

57:28

at a national level somewhere, and you're

57:30

going to continue to underfund councils and

57:32

they're facing bankruptcy, business rates and council

57:34

tax will go up. Now, I don't

57:36

know how good your growth model is.

57:38

We're going to get growth. We're going

57:40

for growth. If you're going to

57:43

have businesses bludgeoned by business rates being increased,

57:45

by the way, labor have committed to reforming business rights.

57:48

Again, if you're going to get rid of business rates,

57:50

where's the money going to come from? And

57:53

my mother-in-law, Michael, I think she's a very wise woman.

57:55

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. She

57:57

said, look, the Tories talk about tax cuts, but then

58:00

When your council tax goes up, they rob Peter to

58:02

pay Paul. I

58:04

feel like if the Tories weren't

58:06

so remiss in that department, that would be

58:08

a useful line of attack against the Labour

58:10

Party. I

58:12

feel like we are headed towards permanent

58:15

dysfunction in local government because at a

58:17

national level, no political party is being

58:19

honest about the need to increase some

58:21

taxes. I wouldn't increase tax on working

58:23

people. I would increase capital gains, for

58:25

instance. They won't be honest

58:27

about that, so of course councils have to increase council tax.

58:30

Well, let them be hated. What's your read

58:32

on that? Do you think we'd see a big rise

58:34

in council tax and how might Labour respond? Money

58:37

has to come from somewhere, right? So either it's

58:39

the case that planning reform

58:42

and some international investors having new

58:44

confidence because Kirstal has got a

58:46

nice haircut, right? Either that brings

58:48

around really intense growth or

58:50

taxes are going to have to be increased at a national or

58:52

local level, as you say, or they're

58:55

going to have to change the statutory obligations

58:57

of councils. So councils at the moment, I

58:59

think about 70% of their budgets goes

59:01

on. Older

59:03

people that need care, adult social

59:05

care, and then children who

59:08

have extra needs. So

59:10

councils are responsible for getting them to special

59:13

education schools. And this

59:15

is costing them lots of money, in part,

59:17

I think, because there's a bit of some

59:19

monopoly power when it comes to the service

59:22

providers. So I suppose they

59:24

could do something about that. But I think

59:26

either you're going to have taxes

59:28

increasing somewhere or you're going to

59:30

have to have services declining and

59:32

actually statutory obligations of councils falling.

59:35

So literally saying, okay, it

59:37

was the case that you had to provide XYZ for

59:39

kids with learning difficulties. We're going to take away the

59:41

Z, you just have to provide XY. Like that's the

59:43

only way you're going to make it work unless all

59:46

of these councils end up going bust.

59:49

So I suppose pick your poison and

59:52

your labour aren't being honest because they're saying we can

59:54

have it all because suddenly we're going to get Chinese

59:56

to grow because of some planning reform. Yeah,

59:58

there's one comment here. then council tax is going

1:00:01

up. I know, but you said 10%. Generally

1:00:04

speaking, it's hard to push it by 5%. You

1:00:06

need certain measures taking place. My point

1:00:09

is you ain't seen nothing yet, okay?

1:00:11

Because if you continue to underfund local services,

1:00:13

everybody is gonna see council tax rises like

1:00:15

they're about to see in Birmingham, 20% over

1:00:17

18 months, 20%. Not

1:00:21

5%, 20%. And

1:00:24

that won't be the end of it. Because of course, you

1:00:26

know, if you're caring for older people, we have an aging

1:00:29

population, it ain't going south,

1:00:31

is it? Finally on

1:00:33

Starma, the Times published this

1:00:35

story, revealed. Keir Starma's

1:00:37

plan to revolutionize the way Britain

1:00:39

is governed. The party leader has

1:00:42

plans for a powerful new executive

1:00:44

cabinet and mission boards to focus on

1:00:46

his priorities after the general election. Now,

1:00:48

the short of this is

1:00:51

that Starma will create these mission boards

1:00:53

to monitor progress for Labour's

1:00:55

missions, things like net zero growth. And

1:00:58

that executive cabinet will make key

1:01:00

decisions in advance than being presented to

1:01:02

the cabinet proper. It

1:01:04

will consist of Keir Starma, obviously, Rachel

1:01:07

Reeves, Angela Rayner and Pat

1:01:09

McFadden. Keir Starma also

1:01:11

intends to create a new policy

1:01:13

delivery unit reporting directly to him,

1:01:15

very presidential, which would concentrate on

1:01:18

his priorities across Whitehall.

1:01:21

He's also considering appointing a

1:01:23

senior business figure to run

1:01:25

that unit. Michael,

1:01:28

there's some things I like about this. I

1:01:30

think we should centralize more power than the Prime Minister. I

1:01:33

think we should give some power away. We

1:01:35

should devolve lots of power to regions to

1:01:37

cities, but I think where national government is

1:01:39

tasked to do things, it should be accountable

1:01:41

for them and deliver them. Is

1:01:44

this showing how serious Starma is about

1:01:46

governing? Because on the one hand, talking

1:01:48

to Sophie Ridge, she doesn't sound very

1:01:50

serious, then you read something like this

1:01:52

and you think, okay, there's a bit of a strategy here

1:01:54

about how to execute. I

1:01:57

mean, in a way, the Labour Party just... trying

1:02:00

to work out what can we possibly put in our

1:02:02

manifesto that isn't going to cost any extra money and

1:02:04

this isn't going to cost any extra money. So it's

1:02:08

a very simple explanation as to why we're hearing this

1:02:10

now. I don't necessarily think this is sort of, they

1:02:12

thought, what is the thing that we can do to

1:02:14

bring about growth? And they've decided it's this, this is

1:02:17

going to be the key to growth. I think they're

1:02:19

like, what can we promise? We need some announcements. We

1:02:21

can't spend any money. And this is a cheap thing to

1:02:24

do. I suppose if you do want to

1:02:26

look on the bright side, potentially, you could

1:02:28

argue that one of the reasons why nothing

1:02:31

is working in Britain

1:02:34

at the moment is partly because we had this false

1:02:37

dogma of austerity, which seems to sort

1:02:39

of be hanging around, unfortunately. But

1:02:42

also the Tory party

1:02:44

have just been stagnant and obsessed with internal fights

1:02:46

for a number of years now. So nothing really

1:02:48

works. You know, you're looking at Dominic Cummings Twitter.

1:02:51

I never know how much to believe the guy,

1:02:53

but he sort of say, no, he tried to

1:02:55

go in big,

1:02:57

big plans, big projects. And

1:03:00

everyone was too busy with factual infying or

1:03:02

stagnant myopia that we couldn't

1:03:04

get it done. So if

1:03:07

you wanted to look on the bright side, you

1:03:09

could say maybe getting a new bunch of guys

1:03:11

in there who have been thinking about this for

1:03:13

a while. They

1:03:15

shouldn't really be sort of angling

1:03:17

as to who's going to be the next leader as

1:03:20

obsessively as they are in the Conservative Party. Maybe just

1:03:22

that little bit of new energy and momentum will make

1:03:24

governance a bit more effective than it has been for

1:03:26

the past five years or so. But

1:03:29

yeah, I mean, we're somewhat clutching at

1:03:31

straws here, but I want to end on

1:03:33

a positive. They will

1:03:35

be better than the stories. Quickly, to finish on

1:03:37

the story, the subtext for me

1:03:39

is that they're going to take on the Treasury. You know,

1:03:42

if all of a sudden you're centralizing power at number 10,

1:03:44

it sounds like you're taking power away from the

1:03:47

Treasury. I find this really

1:03:49

interesting because you've had this story about the OBR

1:03:51

will basically sign off on Labour policy. If it

1:03:53

makes sense, the OBR, it happens. If it doesn't,

1:03:55

it doesn't happen. I think that's ridiculous. But there

1:03:57

you go. Government by Cuango. This sounds

1:03:59

at odds with the OBR. that because you're saying not

1:04:01

government by quango with centralizing executive power

1:04:03

at number 10. Very

1:04:06

interesting, very interesting. We've not detected

1:04:08

any tensions between Rachel Rios and

1:04:10

Keir Starmer but that's

1:04:13

interesting. That number 10, number 11 conflict,

1:04:17

it hints at that. Michael, you've

1:04:19

been very good this evening as always. I'm

1:04:21

used to seeing you in HD as the

1:04:23

host but it was good to see you

1:04:25

coming from home. Your plant is looking very

1:04:27

healthy. I trust a person who has green

1:04:29

fingers. I've got a dying

1:04:31

plant in the other part of my

1:04:33

room. I've been lobbying also for a

1:04:36

more HD camera so I'll send some

1:04:38

messages after this show. Good

1:04:40

PR there to have the dying plant just

1:04:43

out of shot and thanks to

1:04:45

all of you for tuning in tonight. My

1:04:47

name is Aram Astani, you've been watching Navarra Media. Good

1:04:49

night. This

1:04:52

broadcast is brought to you

1:04:55

by Navarra Media. Go to

1:04:57

navarramedia.com/support.