0:00

Today. I am speaking to

0:02

possibly the world's best negotiator.

0:04

Ever Wireless now going to bring in our nice

0:06

gas! Chris Avast. Chris Va stressed. For

0:08

Avast retired F B I Special

0:10

Agent, hostage negotiator and Terrorism expert.

0:13

He's a former lead international

0:15

kidnapping negotiator for the F

0:17

B I. In his incredible

0:19

career, he's gone from negotiating

0:21

with terrorists t negotiating in

0:23

business and today he shares

0:25

the worst negotiation mistakes he's

0:27

made. You. Learn the common

0:30

mistakes the most of us make.

0:32

The failures: Chris had one negotiating

0:34

over hostages and one bit of

0:36

advice that I didn't believe. All

0:39

of that. Coming. Up. The.

0:42

Podcast I'd like to recommend today

0:44

is the D To See Pot

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brought you bought a hotspot Podcast

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network the audio destination for business

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professionals. The D to Sea Port

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hosts cover everything from starting growing

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in the stories behind your favorite

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consumer brands, this is a podcast

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for you To start. I'd suggest

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checking out Episode Three One Eight

1:11

which features the See. Ammo. Of

1:13

festivals so listen to d to

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see part where ever you get

1:17

your podcasts. Today,

1:20

the former F B I hostage

1:23

negotiator and author of the best

1:25

selling book never Split the Difference

1:27

Christmas shows his worst negotiation mistakes.

1:30

But first, he was quick to

1:32

point out that hostage negotiations aren't

1:34

similar to how we see them

1:37

in the movies. No. Real

1:39

life negotiations aren't dependent on

1:41

ultimatums, bargaining, and powerplay. They

1:43

are based on softer psychology.

1:46

Human. Beings make the decision. Their

1:48

decisions pretty much the same. Has

1:50

this affect my identity? How does

1:52

this affect my vision of the

1:54

future? My autonomy

1:56

drive control, oil and decisions.

1:59

Or how much are I have?

2:01

Hulu? But what? Ah, the negotiation

2:03

tactic that fail. What well known

2:05

advice doesn't perform in the real

2:07

wealth? Well Chris had an immediate

2:09

answer for me getting angry Ever

2:11

in other things that things that

2:13

don't work short term. some stuff

2:15

works really well. short term and

2:17

it's really bad. long term. Like

2:19

out, you know there's a tactic

2:21

out there called strategic on Bridge

2:23

in only do demonstrate anger in

2:25

order to get your way. And

2:27

there's even a study that says

2:29

it works. And what

2:31

it does is in might help

2:33

the gateway temporarily momentarily and then

2:35

it is really bad. Long term,

2:38

near the saddest hates it adds

2:40

toxic begin spend time paying you

2:42

back. And

2:44

in I have my doubts as

2:46

to how well it is affecting

2:48

short term anyway, because the study

2:50

that says it's of factors a

2:52

was based oh, and simulated negotiations.

2:55

When I went through Harvard Law

2:57

Schools negotiation course we did a

2:59

lot a simulated negotiations and people

3:01

love the practice simulated negotiations. But.

3:04

Their fate in that you're playing a

3:06

role. Yeah, oh, you're the Ceo of

3:08

a cosmetics company. Or you're selling your

3:11

I phone. First of all, it's a

3:13

role that it's not. You see that

3:15

going to react? Authentically

3:17

emotionally. And. Then

3:20

even more important, when students are

3:22

given a simulated negotiations. In reality,

3:24

they sit down for one conversation.

3:27

they talk from forty five minutes

3:29

to an hour. And. The

3:31

only way that they feel like they failed as if

3:33

they don't make a deal. And

3:36

then there's no ongoing relationship. It's

3:38

a one off, it's a fake worn off and

3:41

it only last for now. So.

3:43

Students get together. They had talked about

3:45

forty five minutes and they have got

3:47

to a deal and wants to go

3:49

such us is really bad they start

3:51

fake and anger and so the come

3:53

to the deal because they're only failure

3:55

was not getting a deal. Wasn't.

3:58

A real life know negotiate happens

4:00

in one sitting and forty five

4:02

minutes and no negotiation is that

4:04

you never see the other person

4:06

ever again and never never cross

4:09

paths with One of my students

4:11

at Georgetown thought he was in

4:13

a one off negotiation with my

4:15

cabinets at Home Depot and use

4:17

the bargaining method it's in my

4:19

book or the Ackerman method and

4:21

just guide Gray Price or Chapman's

4:23

I mean just pounded. The.

4:26

Salesperson because I'm going to buy these cabinets is

4:28

a one off. You know? I can afford to

4:30

get this guy's throat. Well,

4:32

two weeks later, he comes back to

4:34

the Home Depot cause he's got an

4:37

issue with his cabinet's. Hood.

4:39

Is a run into. Their.

4:41

Guys slaughtered in the negotiations.

4:44

With. A willing to help him in any

4:46

way, shape or form, On. Six

4:48

and a problem with a cab families without

4:50

just kill animal what they were going to

4:53

charge him. Now they had all this pent

4:55

up anger over here getting pushed around so

4:57

that that's one of the reasons why the

4:59

Study on Strategic Elmbridge is just so wrong.

5:02

Don't use anger to get your way because

5:04

even if you get you a short term.

5:07

You're. Gonna pay for long term.

5:09

Not only do strategic umbrage getting

5:12

angry home you in the long

5:14

term, Chris reckons it's intersected in

5:16

the short term. Sure, It

5:18

might work in a fake negotiation, but

5:20

in the real world, shouting at someone

5:23

will probably back sire. One. Of

5:25

my favorite studies which loyal Business

5:27

of not will nice showcases this

5:29

nicely in the study, Researchers Nicholas

5:31

Gagan and Alexandra Pascal's asked commuters

5:33

waiting at a bus stop for

5:36

some spare change to take the

5:38

bus to start. They simply ask

5:40

for money as normal, and they

5:42

weren't too successful. Only ten percent

5:44

of commuters offered any change, but

5:46

then they switched the negotiations tactic.

5:49

They didn't get angry, didn't shouts.

5:51

Know they. Did the opposite they would

5:53

kind of. For their new tactic, they

5:56

added one line to their request. They

5:58

simply said you asked three. The

6:00

repeatedly. Adding that one line

6:02

had a seat effect. Now the number

6:04

of commuters who donated shut up to

6:07

almost forty eight percent at the almost

6:09

a five time improvement from the control.

6:12

Movies they make it seem like anger

6:14

can help us in negotiations, but study

6:16

sites that the opposite is true. Next.

6:19

Dot I asked us about another popular

6:21

strategy pushing for yes. See many salespeople

6:23

tell you that to win in negotiations

6:26

he just has to get your customer

6:28

saying yes Robin and asking will you

6:30

buy this car A salesperson She cites

6:33

you a family man right? To.

6:35

Which know hit yes then they'll say

6:37

so you care about safety, you wouldn't

6:39

want your family getting hurt, so I

6:42

imagine you want to pay a bit

6:44

more for the extra safety rating. We've.

6:47

All experienced this tactic, but Chris

6:49

says that pushing for yes perhaps

6:51

isn't as effective as sales Gary's

6:53

would have you believe. It

6:56

I have a live in Las Vegas

6:58

that I've always use a Las Vegas

7:00

analogy. Nothing warsaw the time. What? You

7:02

want? something to watch more than anything

7:04

else. And if you're yes, oh, he

7:06

added negotiator year when and maybe ten

7:09

to fifteen percent of the time Now

7:11

you get out of that and your

7:13

win rate is got a climb up

7:15

well above fifty percent. So.

7:17

This yes oil is suffers leave and money

7:19

on the table. Bout.

7:22

You read about that? Yes, Momentum,

7:24

Momentum selling. It calls Eats. Yes,

7:27

I'm Michael. Agreement. Also

7:29

refers to each as as at tied

7:31

down and get a series of michael

7:34

agreements. And. Then they say yes

7:36

to the big thing you know you gotta. We

7:38

gotta be tied down. For.

7:40

The first gotta really sort of

7:42

attack this whole idea. Chimp Campos

7:44

a friend and colleague and two

7:46

thousand two wrote this book called

7:48

start with no can I remember

7:50

walking through their own, the airport

7:52

near work and kidnappings, but I

7:55

read every book, undergo surgery early,

7:57

my ass on and so I'm

7:59

browsing books. According, Isis boxes

8:01

Starwood know when I'm like, what? what? Starwood

8:03

know? what are we supposed to get Yes,

8:05

I was getting the yes and egg in

8:07

a double take on a goal when I

8:10

grabbed the book and I start leafing through.

8:13

And I find to ideas in there

8:15

and I'm like I saw got an

8:17

idea whose gotta be more money by

8:19

this baby and take it home and

8:21

can't discovered that is telling people was

8:23

okay to say no. Increases

8:26

win rate. He was a yes or

8:28

in a guy. Anything People get started

8:30

on this yes or Momentum because your

8:32

sales person you're not make it yourself.

8:35

Anything you know you win rate is

8:37

one percent. Maybe. Advocate.

8:39

In are you Not make any deals You

8:41

know what's going on. Somebody introduces you to

8:43

the yes momentum and suddenly you go from

8:46

being a Macedon. Are these students? To.

8:48

Be an assistant. The.

8:50

You perception is there's been a

8:53

great big leap and my success.

8:55

I mean, I'm making deals you

8:57

know, see students pass and classes

8:59

in. you know, American universities. If

9:02

you're d student, they kicked you

9:04

out. If. You see student,

9:06

you can stay. And if

9:08

you go from being a D student to

9:10

see certain you think you're ridiculously successful, you

9:12

survive in you're making a living. And.

9:15

Then you walk around. Go on like I may

9:17

be you. Get. And yes, You.

9:20

Know a sissy student say and

9:22

I passed my classes, I'm gonna

9:24

get a college degree. Same yes,

9:27

relatively. Speaking, you don't know what it looks like

9:30

to be in a study of even a beast. It.

9:33

And so you were. Based on

9:35

your your personal history, you're very

9:37

success. So what

9:39

happens with us momentum will everybody gets

9:41

bamboozled somewhere along the line and is

9:43

my contention my company's content pension and

9:46

we're missing a thing to contradict to

9:48

get that the world is yes battered

9:50

something as simple as have you got

9:52

a few minutes to talk. Every

9:56

keynote I give, I'll stand up in front

9:58

of. Five. Hundred people. And

10:00

I'll say all right so the voice on the other end of

10:02

the phone says have you got a few minutes to

10:04

talk? What's your reaction and

10:07

everybody in the room either give it

10:09

gives me dead silence, which is an

10:11

indicator of discomfort? Or

10:14

a bunch of people yell out no no Something

10:19

as simple as have you got a few minutes to talk

10:21

and my question To everybody that

10:23

listen to that well, so if it's so

10:25

great to say yes If

10:28

yes is the objective then

10:30

why when somebody asks you don't you shout out?

10:32

Yes Because it feels

10:34

good to say yes Well, it

10:36

feels good to hear it But

10:39

to say it causes uneat So

10:43

we're kicking around this Start

10:45

with no idea which is just camp used

10:47

to tell people when he would

10:49

sit down to sell him something It's

10:51

okay to say no You can

10:53

say no to me at any time and I'll go away Any

10:57

started making more deals and he called it

10:59

preserving their right to veto or their autonomy?

11:02

And when I read that as a hostage

11:05

negotiation, I'm like wow, that's exactly what's going

11:07

on in hostage negotiation As

11:09

soon as we preserve their autonomy

11:11

to basic human need they're

11:13

more likely to listen to us and talk to us And

11:16

so we're kicking this idea around and

11:19

eventually we go what happens if

11:21

you? Intentionally get somebody to

11:23

say no Well,

11:25

how does that affect things? And

11:28

I had a student in Georgetown Did

11:31

a paper where he was a salesperson

11:33

and they had a no oriented script

11:35

and a yes oriented script You

11:37

know, would you like to do this? Would you like to

11:39

do that? Do you like this? Do you want to buy

11:42

three? Yeses? Which is the yes

11:44

momentum and in the big ask? They

11:46

ran the noran to'd script side by side at

11:49

his sales Location

11:51

with the yes script and the

11:53

noran to'd script had a 23% higher success rate Just

11:58

switching the questions from yes to know.

12:01

And it's always been my contention that if

12:03

you can just switch from yes to no,

12:06

instantly, you're 23%

12:08

more effective. Instantly. That's the

12:10

only thing you learn. You go from being

12:12

a C student to a B student automatically.

12:17

For those listening carefully, you'll see some

12:19

similarities between Chris's advice and the

12:21

You Are Free To Refuse study.

12:24

Chris, the researchers, found that preserving

12:26

someone's right to say no helps

12:28

in a negotiation. You

12:31

might be thinking, well, Phil, this is just one study. It's

12:33

just one person's view. How

12:35

can we trust it? Well, there

12:37

is evidence. The But You Are

12:39

Free To Refuse study has been

12:41

tested not just once, but 42

12:43

times. And in 2013, Christopher Carpenter

12:45

conducted a meta-analysis of all 42

12:48

studies on the effect. And his

12:50

finding was conclusive. Across dozens of

12:52

different disciplines and examples, adding But

12:55

You Are Free doubles the chances

12:57

that someone will agree to your

12:59

request. The 2x improvement occurs with

13:01

all types of requests, like asking for

13:04

charity donations to help landmine victims, asking

13:06

pedestrians to answer a survey, and

13:09

even asking youngsters to volunteer at

13:11

an old people's home. Saying

13:13

You Are Free To Refuse doubled

13:15

success rate. But the meta-analysis

13:18

did find that this principle works

13:20

best in a face-to-face setting, saying You

13:22

Are Free To Refuse online does

13:24

also work, but not as well. Pushing

13:27

for yes and strategic umbrage are

13:30

two negotiation tactics that don't

13:32

work. But that's not all. Chris has

13:34

got two more after this quick

13:36

break. Finding

13:39

a service solution that helps you better

13:41

connect with customers and keep them happy

13:44

can feel impossible. It's like

13:46

trying to remember the name of someone

13:48

you've just met at a networking event.

13:50

I've made this mistake before. Introducing a

13:52

colleague to my new friend Dan, only

13:55

to find out his name was actually

13:57

Ian. Being personal with your customers

13:59

is important. But keeping on

14:01

top of all that information can

14:03

be very hard. That's where HubSpot's

14:05

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14:08

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14:10

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14:14

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14:17

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14:20

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14:22

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14:24

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14:26

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14:30

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Visit hubspot.com/service to do more for

14:40

your customers today. Welcome

14:43

back. You are listening to Nigel with me, Phil Agnew. Now,

14:45

in 1953, Colin Cherry conducted an experiment

14:48

inspired by his experience at a cocktail

14:50

party. See, Colin discovered something strange at

14:52

these parties. He'd be deep in conversation,

14:54

totally unaware of the noise happening around

14:57

him. He wasn't aware of the dozen

14:59

conversations happening in the room, the faint

15:01

hum of music coming from the live

15:04

band, the sound of glasses tapping and

15:06

cutlery clanging. And yet, when

15:08

someone said his name, Colin,

15:10

in a conversation halfway across the room,

15:12

he heard it. His

15:15

brain ignored 99% of

15:17

the other noise but somehow became aware

15:19

when his name was called. Dozens

15:21

of follow-up studies have proved that this wasn't a one-off.

15:24

The effect has been replicated. Colin

15:26

called it the cocktail party effect.

15:29

Since then, sales gurus have spoken about the power

15:32

of a first name, how using

15:34

a customer's first name can persuade them to buy. They've

15:37

taken the cocktail party effect and assume

15:39

it works for negotiations as well as

15:41

it works for recognition. But

15:43

Chris Voss isn't so sure. He

15:45

thinks first names aren't as persuasive

15:47

as we think. Like a

15:50

person's first name is precious

15:52

to them. There's

15:54

a few things out there. Maybe

15:56

consider it like you would a season. If

16:00

you like salt on

16:02

whatever your dish is, then

16:04

you get a double, triple the amount of salt you

16:07

put on it. No, you're going to be disgusted by

16:09

it. It's going to be overdone. It's going to be

16:11

very off-putting. So a

16:13

person's first name is very important to them.

16:17

What I like is I'll

16:20

give my first name and

16:23

when they're comfortable, they tell me theirs. I'm

16:26

constantly reading, the gathering data

16:28

with your eyes, listening with your eyes to

16:31

get somebody to the point where they're comfortable giving

16:33

me their name. It's

16:36

like any social interaction, which

16:38

is kind of crazy why

16:40

salespeople when they're calling, especially cold call,

16:43

they start using a person's first name or even ask

16:45

if it's there. But

16:47

if you're in a social occasion, you're

16:49

a business networking event or you're networking

16:51

in general, let's say their name tags.

16:56

The really effective people walk up and give

16:58

their name first. Just

17:00

their first name. They say, hey, I'm Chris. And

17:03

stop and wait. And

17:05

let the other side then choose whether or

17:07

not they're going to engage. And it's very

17:09

much this autonomy issue. And

17:11

you let the other person give

17:16

their precious commodity their first name when they're

17:18

comfortable. But in the meantime, you've

17:20

instantly become a person. You've

17:23

changed in front of their eyes. And

17:25

it's a very, it's triggering reciprocity

17:27

right off the bat and getting them to

17:30

bond with you so that when they give

17:32

you their name, then you can

17:34

use it. You're going to want to use it a

17:36

couple of times to remember it. But

17:39

you're not going to want to batter them with it

17:41

because as soon as you start battering them with it,

17:44

you become that used car salesperson

17:47

that's just trying to hustle

17:49

them straight transaction hustle

17:51

them out of their dollar. And

17:54

there's no shortage of people that

17:56

are battering others with their name.

17:59

And so they're instantly you're creating a feeling

18:01

of unease and you're starting to drive

18:03

them away by overusing the name. You

18:06

want to use it once they've given it

18:08

voluntarily, not when you pride it out. Because

18:12

they feel vulnerable when

18:14

they give you their name and they

18:17

need to feel comfortable with that. First

18:19

names capture awareness. There's no doubting that.

18:22

Referring to someone with their first name

18:24

will capture their attention more than not

18:26

using it. But that doesn't make it

18:28

more persuasive and Chris feels it's overused.

18:31

By bombarding a customer with their first

18:33

name, it starts to feel transactional. Now,

18:36

many of the examples are hypothetical, but I

18:38

wondered whether Chris had a failure to share

18:40

from his own career. Yeah, there's

18:42

plenty of failures. I mean, nobody, hottest

18:45

negotiator has got about a 93 percent

18:47

win rate, which means if you work

18:49

in a case that something's going to

18:51

go bad. And you just

18:53

got to accept that. That's the definition of

18:55

best chance of success is the acceptance that

18:57

you can't make every deal. When

19:00

we're coaching people, what we really

19:02

like to tell people on a regular basis is it's

19:04

not a sin to not get the deal. It's

19:07

a sin to take a long time to not get the

19:09

deal. But there's

19:11

before we even get into that, there's one

19:13

other bad habit that I'd like to get

19:15

into and it's like high anchoring, extreme anchoring.

19:18

A lot of data out there and academic

19:21

data that says name price first

19:24

and use it as an anchor

19:26

to set the ZOPA, the

19:28

zone of possible agreement. You know,

19:30

one of my Harvard brothers and

19:32

sisters acronyms favorite

19:35

phrases. Now, this

19:37

is interesting. On Nudge, I've regularly told

19:39

you that high anchoring is effective. I've

19:41

shared studies showing that beer sales increase

19:43

if the menu starts with a high

19:45

anchor, that auction bids increase with anchoring,

19:47

and that also leading with a high

19:50

anchor worked in negotiations. But

19:52

Chris thinks that I might be wrong. And

19:54

that's a tough one to get over because

19:57

what you'll see in

19:59

real life. The majority, not

20:01

all, but the majority of

20:03

really successful business people will say he

20:06

or she who names Price first

20:08

loses. Well

20:12

how can you simultaneously high

20:15

anchor and not name

20:17

Price first? And

20:20

you dig into the really successful

20:22

people in my view, the Warren Buffets

20:25

of the world, the Oprah Winfrey's

20:27

of the world. And

20:29

you find that the other side's price

20:31

is data that you need. And

20:35

what you have to be prepared for is how do

20:37

you react to the high anchor. You know, the Mike

20:39

Tyson line, everybody's got to play until they get punched

20:41

in the face. One of my

20:44

students wrote in one of their papers,

20:46

an extreme anchor can make a vision

20:49

disappear right before your eyes. What

20:51

does that mean? They got anchored high

20:54

and they didn't expect to get

20:56

punched in the nose. And

20:59

their vision of how things were going to

21:01

work out just sort of crumbled. So it's

21:04

a preparation issue. Emotionally

21:06

reacting to an extreme anchor as opposed

21:09

to looking at it as information. So

21:13

for the longest time I'm a

21:16

complete believer in not high

21:18

anchoring. Gut instinct

21:20

is that it drives deals from the table that

21:23

you should otherwise make. My

21:25

first piece of data on that is every

21:28

time somebody high anchors on me, I'm like

21:30

screw you. You grab them

21:32

with both hands. I have no intention of

21:34

dealing with you because you're always going to

21:36

grab with both hands, which

21:38

means you're always going to be a bad partner. And

21:42

then and I'm in LA at

21:44

the time and I run across a guy who's

21:46

a friend of mine now, Ned Coletti's manager,

21:48

Los Angeles Dodgers. And

21:51

when he was manager, they went from

21:53

worst to first his first year. Just

21:56

gives you the manager of a professional sports team

21:58

doesn't mean you're any good at nagering. Jason.

22:02

La Plaza. Those guys were as managers

22:04

are teams out when is sick and

22:06

I just the coach in the players.

22:08

It's who assembled the players and who

22:10

assembled the contracts. The flour and Ned's

22:13

first year without really change in heaven.

22:15

Chance to draft people. they go from

22:17

worst to first made the disguise doing

22:19

something right. For read

22:21

his book. Than. Just

22:24

brilliant negotiate of low key guy loves to

22:26

listen and so was sit down dinner one

22:28

night and ago his my opinion on anchoring.

22:30

It's also what I think is in your

22:33

book but I just want to you say

22:35

it outlasts. I. Think

22:37

hi, anchoring drives deals from the

22:39

table. That. You

22:41

should have made otherwise. And.

22:43

He goes absolutely and he starts tell

22:46

me about. In a professional sports

22:48

when an age and comes in with a

22:50

ridiculous ask on be are of the Afl

22:52

a player. The team just moves

22:54

on. They. Don't even

22:56

entertain accomplish. And.

22:59

They go, they let they let the

23:01

guy go out and I either sign

23:03

of worse contract with somebody else or

23:05

sign a ridiculous contract with somebody else.

23:08

And. Then what one thing? The ned

23:10

that on a regular basis when he

23:12

trade for players who had ridiculously high

23:14

salary contracts. He'll. Make the

23:17

other team eat part of the shower. And.

23:19

Not even pay it. Dot. Yards one

23:21

of my sample size be I My own

23:23

experience on high anchoring is I don't do

23:25

it because I hate driving a deal from

23:27

the table that he should have made. An

23:30

when somebody does it to me I

23:33

see was greedy and i stopped doing

23:35

well and then i talked to guy

23:37

like minute him. His. Experience.

23:41

Coincides. with mine so I encourage

23:43

a bad idea. When. Chris experiences

23:45

hiring her in a negotiation. He immediately

23:47

feels his autonomy is being threatened. He

23:49

knows his partner is not to get

23:51

in and in response, Chris hardens up

23:54

Muslim working on a deal. Know.

23:56

I'm still a fan. Believe in the anchoring works.

23:58

I've seen a beast. sales. Increase tips

24:00

and improve donations. But if

24:03

you're negotiating and you use

24:05

a ridiculous anchor, a can

24:07

backfire. Asking your boss for

24:09

a two hundred percent pay rise when

24:11

help you anchor down to twenty percent,

24:13

it'll make you seem unhinged. Telling.

24:15

A climate a yearly contract is doubling

24:17

in price. Went improve your position. It'll

24:20

cause them to chan immediately. Chris.

24:22

Says that a negotiation is between two

24:24

partners and if one fails their autonomy

24:27

as constricted, they'll back out. To.

24:29

Me: This is the theme behind all

24:31

four of the mistakes we said today.

24:33

Autonomy. We. Don't like it

24:35

when someone gets angry. We don't like it

24:38

when someone pushes the yes. We don't like

24:40

over used first names and we don't like

24:42

hi anchors. Why? Because all

24:44

four of these tactics limit our

24:47

autonomy. So. What should we do

24:49

instead? What negotiation tactic should we follow

24:51

to improve our negotiations? Well, all of

24:53

that is coming up on next week's

24:55

episode of Notch. In the next episode,

24:57

Chris comes back on the show and

24:59

says his top advice for negotiations. To

25:01

make sure you don't miss that, Say,

25:03

be sure to subscribe to the show

25:05

where ever you the since and sign

25:07

up for the Nudge newsletter. If you

25:09

do, you get an email. remind us

25:11

as soon as the next episode with

25:13

Chris guys lies. To do that, just

25:15

get a Nudge podcast.com and quick newsletter

25:17

to. Subscribe or just had to the share notes

25:19

and click the link that. Newsletter. Subscribe.

25:22

Get that says education about new

25:24

up sites such really west subscribing.

25:26

Now. Massive Nike to Christmas The Coming

25:28

on nuts. If you have not read

25:30

his book never split the difference than

25:32

I highly recommend you check it out.

25:35

It is a fantastic book covering behavioral

25:37

science, psychology, and of course real world

25:39

hostage negotiation. Go and pick up a

25:41

copy. it's brilliant but of course you

25:43

are free to Rothys. Battle.

25:45

For this week sites. I'll be back

25:48

next Monday Wave Crest for another episode

25:50

of Notch. Just.