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1:01

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2:08

Welcome

2:09

to this bonus episode of Obscene:

2:11

The Dublin Scandal. If

2:12

you're joining us for the first time, we recommend

2:15

you go back to the start of the series and listen

2:17

from episode one. My name is

2:19

Eamon Charleco Connor. I was the series

2:21

producer, and I've worked as an investigative journalist

2:23

for over forty years. I'm gonna

2:25

be talking to Paul Walker, our scriptwriter for

2:27

the series and one of our contributors. the

2:30

journalist and broadcaster, Unibaille. We'll

2:32

be discussing how we made the podcast as

2:34

well as the wider context surrounding the case

2:36

of Malcolm MacArthur. McArthur

2:38

was convicted of the murder of nurse Brady

2:40

Gargan and sentenced to life in prison.

2:42

A

2:43

second charge for the murder of the young farmer,

2:45

Donald Dublin, was left on file

2:47

and never prosecuted. We'll also be

2:49

touching on the unsolved murder of Charles Self,

2:51

which took place earlier in nineteen eighty

2:53

two. Let's

2:54

start by talking about that summer of eighty two

2:56

when the events took place. Paul, what were you

2:58

doing last year? Over seventeen years of

3:01

age. And in the formula,

3:03

I don't actually all I remember

3:05

of the time is I came from Dremelift,

3:07

which wasn't too far from the Phoenix Park, and

3:10

I remember the amount of checkpoints.

3:14

I don't actually remember the

3:17

murder. taking place. I just remember

3:19

the checkpoints. I do remember the trial

3:21

coming up the following year, but

3:24

my first thing was having

3:26

the checkpoints and not being sure of what

3:28

was going on. Yeah. It's it's something

3:30

that I had just missed journalistically

3:33

because I had been working as a newspaper

3:35

journalist in Dublin in nineteen eighty one,

3:37

and then eighty two went over to start working

3:39

in television in England. But

3:41

I had friends who were covering crime

3:43

stories in Dublin at the time and knew

3:45

that this was a very unusual, very

3:48

significant series

3:50

of episodes, and that was fascinating.

3:52

It all came up quite slow in the press even

3:54

when we were doing our It

3:56

it seemed to take I know we we now

3:58

live in a twenty four

3:59

hour news society and everything like that.

4:02

But back then, it seemed to take a long

4:04

time before it filtered onto

4:06

the headlines. there

4:07

was a nervousness about it. There was a

4:09

nobody really knew how to approach it.

4:11

So it it led to that kind

4:13

of hesitant nervous coverage

4:15

of it. But just so that, you know,

4:18

obviously, you weren't working as a journalist there.

4:20

Tell us about your own first encounter

4:22

with this bizarre story. I

4:24

can't really remember apart from

4:26

the fact that you definitely would have heard Malcolm

4:28

MacArthur's name growing up,

4:30

you know, occasionally the

4:33

story would be revisited or something in

4:35

newspapers when I was a kid. And I

4:37

do remember his famous photograph

4:39

of his face, you know, quite a

4:41

unique looking guy in

4:43

an Irish

4:43

context where people's even

4:46

the haircuts are more conservative than

4:48

other parts of the world or

4:49

whatever. certainly at at

4:51

that time. So it was just kind

4:53

of a name that was floating around as

4:55

as a famous or infamous name

4:57

in Irish society. But it's

4:59

interesting that you're talking about the tentative

5:01

nature of the reporting because I

5:03

used

5:03

to have a column and that one of the pieces that

5:05

I used to have in The Times was an archive

5:08

piece revisiting mist

5:10

stories or or little quirks

5:13

in the past. I think it's says

5:15

a lot about the taintus of nature of Irish

5:17

society and the reluctance of

5:20

even journalists who were meant to be kind of

5:22

blowing things out of the water in in different kinds

5:24

of ways. to actually conceptualize

5:27

and frame the seismic

5:30

nature of this story to

5:32

to audiences, you know, I guess,

5:34

you're also talking about a time in

5:36

political reporting where there was

5:38

a reluctance to question political

5:42

power. it

5:42

seems to me that there

5:44

was and in certain ways,

5:47

remains and we're looked just to

5:49

grasp the nattles sometimes when

5:51

we're looking at these

5:52

very, very

5:55

sensational

5:57

radioactive stories. And when we've seen

5:59

this time and

5:59

time again, with journalism

6:01

in Ireland about there's

6:04

a word from the tree stuff and there's a

6:06

reluctance to

6:08

tackle the things that are really

6:10

right in front of people in

6:12

terms of intrinsic kind of corruption.

6:15

Yeah.

6:15

I think that's right. And I think that the thing that

6:17

we're edging up to is Charlie

6:19

Hoye. I think it was his dominance

6:21

Scandal the fear

6:24

that he instilled in the public

6:26

and the press in particular, that

6:28

was so significant in in this

6:30

story and in the coverage of the story.

6:33

And just from personal perspective, I I

6:35

started work as to say in in newspapers in

6:37

Dublin in nineteen eighty one. as

6:39

a somebody from the north of Ireland,

6:41

I didn't have an in-depth knowledge

6:43

by any means of the political world.

6:46

And I was sent out to a a

6:48

very minor little event that Charlie

6:50

Ollie was gonna turn up out. It was some

6:52

party political thing. Mhmm. And I was at a temp

6:54

in bowling alley. and went along

6:56

to cover it for, like, the Irish

6:58

times of the Irish press. And

7:00

all the cameras were looking

7:02

at Hahi. When he walked into the room, there was this free

7:04

song, people were excited and slightly

7:06

nervous. And I thought, he's just this ordinary

7:08

little man. I didn't get it. And when he

7:10

started bowling, every time he

7:12

bold the Dublin into the gutter, and

7:15

nobody showed this. And I

7:17

wrote the I wrote the piece about it for the next

7:19

day, and they put it the front page. because this

7:21

was kind of shocking that somebody was questioning

7:23

the clay feet. And and I

7:25

was warned at the time I was, like, twenty

7:28

two you know, you're gonna get in trouble. You

7:30

shouldn't have said that about Charlie, the word

7:32

will get around. So there was that kind of

7:34

nervousness about this man and

7:36

that definitely fed into

7:38

the way in which the MacArthur story was covered.

7:41

Let's talk then about why on Earth

7:43

we're talking about this forty year old murder

7:46

or or man who who was on the front

7:48

page of newspapers forty years ago,

7:50

why does this story still resonate? Una,

7:52

why does it matter in in Ireland today?

7:55

I think

7:55

because those questions remain,

7:58

I think that's why

7:59

it does. You know, there's still a lack

8:02

of

8:02

clarity around what the

8:04

real Connections were

8:06

between MacArthur and the AG,

8:09

former US ambassador,

8:11

that kind of high society Elise

8:14

at the time. And

8:16

actually, Irish media never has been good

8:18

about looking into people's private lives. Right?

8:20

It's and this is why Hadi

8:22

was able to be such a hypocrite as

8:24

well with regards to his extra

8:26

marketable affairs and things like that. You know,

8:28

there's this we're looked in some

8:29

Irish media to look into people's private

8:31

lives, and we don't do tabloid journalism

8:33

in the same way that occurs

8:36

in Britain, for example. And one of the

8:38

reasons I think is that most of the journals that were

8:40

writing about the time were men,

8:42

and they didn't wanna talk about what another

8:44

man was doing. Yeah. And

8:45

there's also just general

8:46

social conservatism like people

8:48

don't want to talk about other people's

8:49

sex lives in Ireland because,

8:51

you know, coming from kind

8:52

of a press, theocratic context and all that

8:54

kind of stuff. Is that still the same today, do

8:56

you think? In terms of media, I think

8:58

so.

8:58

I'm not fairly sure

9:01

if it's a bad thing

9:03

to

9:04

not

9:06

write

9:06

about not sensationalize people's

9:09

private lives or not ride

9:11

about stuff that's not in the public interest,

9:13

that's just gossip or,

9:15

you know, sensationalism or whatever.

9:17

And

9:18

unless, of course, politicians are pontificating

9:20

about one thing while

9:22

doing another. If there's hypocrisy

9:24

involved absolutely or if there's

9:26

you know,

9:27

something illegal involved or,

9:29

yeah, absolutely, if this is a proxy involved, which

9:31

is why Charlie Hahi's

9:33

private life should have been written about,

9:35

should put a guess, when people are doing

9:38

hypocritical or nefarious things

9:40

or ostentatious things, you know,

9:42

they build in a

9:44

protection around fear and intimidation

9:46

into that so that people can't question

9:48

that, and and and that's what

9:49

Hari did. We're talking about how these

9:51

stories, how that era

9:53

involved that sense of things

9:55

not being properly covered, things

9:58

being covered up. I worked

10:00

in the eighties on a series of programs

10:02

about the Birmingham six, which was an

10:04

infamous miscarriage of justice. And one

10:06

of the really striking things was that I had to go

10:08

to England to to work on that kind

10:10

of story. Nobody in Ireland was

10:12

I'm sorry, in Irish television was working

10:14

on that then. And that feeds into

10:17

that sense of in Ireland,

10:19

in the Dublin, things were not

10:21

being properly covered. So that

10:23

with MacArthur and the

10:25

cover up or but the public

10:27

perceived as the cover up. That

10:29

has endured all these years because

10:31

we still don't know who killed

10:34

Donald no one has ever been

10:36

convicted of his murder. Why did MacArthur

10:38

do what he did? Why did he have that

10:40

relationship with Potty Connolly? all of those

10:42

things are still left open.

10:44

Who killed Charles Self, which

10:47

you had a particular interest in? Talk

10:49

a little bit about that. I don't know if you

10:51

would. new

10:51

altimeter of Charles Self

10:53

because it was kind of a

10:54

certainly famous in

10:57

the LGBT community as

10:59

as a murder of a gay man, which had occurred

11:01

in the context of various

11:04

homophobic murders, killings

11:06

that have been happening at that time. and

11:08

I had written a piece I think was in twenty

11:10

seventeen about Vincent Hanley,

11:12

who was a really, really famous

11:14

Irish music broadcaster,

11:17

DJ, he presented

11:19

this very kind of famous and

11:21

loved music television program.

11:23

And I'd written this piece about the fact

11:25

that he died of HIV

11:28

AIDS complications, and this was

11:30

basically covered up when Irish society at the time. And

11:32

indeed, when I wrote that piece in twenty

11:34

seventeen, lot of people who were really

11:36

familiar with this man as a massive celebrity

11:38

didn't even know that that's how he had

11:40

died. And so there was a lot of

11:42

revisiting of AIDS history streets happening

11:44

in Ireland at the time. And Charles

11:47

Self was killed in Vincent Hanley's

11:49

house

11:49

in Mongolstein. and Vincent

11:51

Hanley wasn't there at the time he was in the UK.

11:54

And so when I wrote this piece on

11:56

Vincent Hanley, I happened to include that

11:58

point and and talking to my

11:59

actor in the Times, they were like, you know,

12:02

really need to kind of go back. And

12:03

so going back into that

12:06

murder, which which remains unsolved,

12:09

Again, you just come up against these

12:12

nebulous contacts at the

12:14

time where there's loads of unanswered

12:16

questions and mystery. And of

12:18

course, the con the investigation

12:21

into the Charles

12:21

Self murder was

12:23

appalling, you know, and the

12:26

fact that there were hundreds

12:27

and hundreds of gay men

12:30

questioned, rinded up,

12:31

fingerprinted legally

12:35

with leading to protests

12:37

outside, garmentations, and

12:39

really kind of seeing how the

12:42

homophobic contacts at the time

12:45

diverted the police from actually

12:47

solving this killing. So

12:49

there was an awful lot of homosexual men

12:52

literally hiding in the in the

12:54

closet. Some married man and

12:56

what the police approach was to

12:58

actually go to their workplaces,

13:00

go to their homes.

13:02

Yeah.

13:02

It was it was pretty almost

13:05

like stasi

13:07

like in terms of how police turned up the

13:09

people's workplaces at their homes, brought people

13:11

in for interview. They had

13:13

looked up some of the records from the

13:15

Hirschfield center, which was a

13:17

gay kind of community center in

13:19

Tampa, Orangefield, which was subsequently

13:21

burned down. and and

13:23

like kind of using various

13:26

records in terms of how to how to

13:28

target people. which was, you

13:30

know, absolutely breaches of privacy, breaches

13:32

of of civil rights. If

13:34

you imagine how severe this was

13:36

in the context of our society, a

13:38

gay men left the country. Like,

13:40

people left the country, they fled because

13:42

they were outed or because they were fearful.

13:44

So when I was growing up,

13:46

started going out on the gay Obscene as gay woman,

13:48

all of this kind of history

13:51

was was held within the community

13:54

from gay people who were older than me and

13:56

they would refer to this time

13:58

or it would be referenced as a thing. So my

13:59

cultural markers in terms of

14:02

Irish history were within

14:04

my community. So, like, the big

14:06

event in terms of the killing was deck

14:08

on Flynn, you know, and the

14:11

big piece of police suppression was

14:13

the Charles Self Investigation. You know, so

14:15

the community had different cultural

14:18

landmarks milestones than

14:20

maybe broader Irish society. And

14:23

in returning to that, killing

14:25

and speaking to people who knew Charles Self

14:27

and going back to various police

14:29

who were involved in the investigation or

14:32

revisiting us, it turned up a

14:34

lot of detail. and

14:35

it turned up a

14:37

lot of context, but

14:40

it didn't turn up what actually

14:42

happened and who killed him. what really

14:44

still

14:44

lives with me, I was a young Stripman

14:46

in Dublin in nineteen eighty

14:48

one, eighty two, and was

14:51

hyper aware of the homophobia that

14:53

was endemic, the misogyny that

14:55

was endemic, the casual

14:58

cruel language

14:59

that was used about gay men and

15:01

women and women in general. And

15:04

that fed into the sense that

15:06

you you could not be openly

15:09

gay without experiencing that kind of discrimination.

15:11

So the few gay men that I knew

15:13

then lived in fear of

15:15

exposure. And there was that

15:17

sense of is an oppressive

15:19

society. So just where the reason we're

15:21

talking about all of this is there is this this

15:23

terrible unsolved murder of Charles Self,

15:25

who's a gay man, and

15:27

the the police, the Cartagena,

15:29

made a very bad job of

15:31

investigating it. And what they

15:33

seemed not to do was text seriously

15:36

the interesting evidence that might

15:38

have connected Malcolm MacArthur to

15:40

this crime. And that's something under

15:42

that you've spent quite a lot of time

15:44

working on. and we spend a bit

15:46

of time looking at it too. And it's

15:48

a really interesting scenario because

15:50

we have an unsold murder, we

15:52

have an eyewitness who gives a vivid pan

15:54

portrait literally of a suspect

15:56

who was in the house the night of the murder.

15:59

various

15:59

people have said that port pan portrait looked

16:02

an awful lot like this mount Malcolm

16:04

MacArthur and yet the guards

16:06

will not the police will not release

16:08

that portrait and they will not say

16:10

whether or not they've ever

16:12

considered Malcolm MacArthur a suspect.

16:13

Here we are forty years on an

16:16

unsold murder and a man who might

16:18

have been questioned about this murder

16:20

is walking around in Dublin today.

16:22

So that's still on file, is it they

16:24

call it? It's

16:25

still open. Yeah. I mean, it's

16:27

been revisited a couple of times, but there's been,

16:29

you know, various strange

16:31

goings on with it in terms

16:32

of the original Scotch the

16:35

Garvey

16:35

claim that they had lasted, and then it

16:37

kind of magically turned Dublin and ran the

16:39

same time that Orte were doing a a

16:41

program

16:41

on us. So there's still

16:43

lots of questions around that. And I think

16:45

that, you know, nobody knows for sure

16:47

what happened. I think it would be

16:50

reasonable, and it is reasonable to

16:52

ask, considering the events

16:54

that happened afterwards in

16:56

the same year you know, was Malcolm McCarthy

16:58

ever questioned about this? Were

17:00

there any

17:01

suspects beyond a couple

17:03

of people who the guard the,

17:05

you know, car rise as quote unquote ramp

17:08

boys when they were probably

17:10

actually potential witnesses. Who

17:12

were the actual solids suspects

17:14

or who were the people who were questioned legitimately

17:17

with regards to this investigation.

17:19

The issue is because

17:22

of how homophobia informed

17:24

the investigation, and

17:27

men were just questioned because they were

17:29

suspected of being gay, full stop.

17:32

that really modies who

17:34

was actually relevant

17:36

in terms of the investigation and

17:38

in terms of who the guard you were questioning.

17:40

you know, when you look back at the investigation,

17:43

they they really just kind of I

17:45

suppose it was contextual, but, my

17:47

god, they they missed they missed a beat

17:50

for sure. The

17:50

man that we were making podcast series about the man

17:52

that, journalistically, we've all been interested in for

17:54

quite a long time now, Malcolm MacArthur.

17:57

is walking around Dublin, and

18:00

we have not been able to speak to him because

18:02

he says he's not allowed to speak to the press.

18:04

Let's talk about what it's like to try and cover this

18:07

kind of story. True

18:09

crime is a very

18:11

popular genre of podcast and

18:13

documentary. and it's got lots of pitfalls,

18:15

and it's something that I spend a lot of time

18:17

worrying about in terms of the kind of ethical

18:19

issues that arise. One of

18:21

the things when I started writing

18:23

it was make sure the victim's

18:25

story is told, make sure the victim's

18:28

and forgotten all this because they were treated

18:31

horrendously. And I think that's a really,

18:33

really important thing for me when

18:35

we approached this was I

18:37

cannot less. Brody

18:39

Gargon and Bonus disappear

18:42

at any stage. While we're doing

18:44

these seven episodes, and it was

18:46

really important to keep them alive throughout

18:49

it. And, you know, when you get involved in

18:51

the likes of the politics and and Charlie Hollie

18:53

being such a big character under

18:55

chaos that was going on in in politics at

18:57

the time. I think sometimes

19:00

with all the mystery that's going on

19:03

and yeah, I wonder what was happening there. I wonder what was

19:05

happening here. They get lost.

19:07

And for me, it was important that they

19:09

didn't get lost. It

19:10

it's really important and one of the problems

19:13

for us was that we approached

19:15

the families of Brady Hargan and Donald

19:17

Dunn wanting to give them the

19:19

opportunity to tell us what they thought about how this whole thing

19:21

had unfolded. And perfectly

19:23

understandably, they didn't want to talk to

19:25

us, which left us in a

19:27

real dilemma. because how do we do

19:29

exactly what you've talked about, Paul? How do we

19:31

give proper emphasis to

19:33

the victims in these

19:35

situations? And, you know, the other

19:37

thing that too often occurs is very

19:39

often it's a murder of a woman and

19:41

the victim is pushed into

19:43

the shadows, is left, in

19:45

the mortuary while the

19:48

killers' exploits are

19:50

detailed. Talk about that, you know, from your own perspective,

19:52

that somebody has written a lot about women's rights

19:54

How comfortable are you with the

19:56

true crime genre, with podcast like

19:59

ours that try and

20:01

reflect crimes that involve the

20:03

killing of women? I

20:04

guess I don't really see this podcast as true

20:06

crime. Genutamine, I think that it

20:08

is about like, I think it's

20:10

about history. I think it's about an

20:13

event that had impact. I think it's about

20:15

a context. I think it's about unanswered

20:18

questions. And of course, there is

20:20

crime at the heart of it. There's a, you know,

20:22

awful, violent crime where people

20:24

lost their

20:25

lives and and absolutely shouldn't be forgotten

20:27

at the heart of but I

20:29

don't see it as, you

20:31

know,

20:31

tracing the contours of the tropes that

20:34

true crime podcasts do.

20:36

You know, murder is entertainment, thing

20:38

that's happening across streamers

20:42

and across

20:43

podcasting, you know, I find is is very

20:46

perturbating. I think speaks

20:48

to some kind of strange collapse

20:50

and empathy. That's that's

20:53

unfortunately driving certain forces in

20:55

society. So I definitely don't

20:57

see this as that. And I think that there was

20:59

a very sensitive work done

21:01

around portraying the

21:03

lives of people who were who were

21:05

killed in particular you

21:07

know, in particular, as you say, a young

21:09

woman at the at the heart of this story as

21:11

well, you know,

21:12

giving credence to that that woman's

21:15

life. on her on her job and on her

21:17

friends, you know. And I

21:17

think that that's that's really important.

21:20

Well, just

21:20

on that, I think that's that's a perfect

21:23

queue for us to talk about the man at the center

21:25

of the podcast. We all

21:27

had to decide when

21:29

you wrote about him and when

21:31

Paul and you and I were working on the podcast

21:34

together. Are we giving this

21:36

man Morgan MacArthur publicity?

21:39

This is a man who clearly is quite vain who likes being the subject

21:41

of public attention and we're

21:44

inviting people to consider

21:46

him and think about him

21:48

are we giving him undue attention? What do you think

21:50

about them? I personally

21:51

don't think we are giving him undue

21:54

attention because I think the

21:57

podcast makes no bones about

21:59

certainly how I feel about the

21:59

month. But I

22:01

think it goes back to what Uno was saying.

22:04

We're we're looking at

22:06

this situation. no, the situation

22:08

that was there in nineteen eighty two,

22:10

and we're saying, how the

22:12

hell are we still at this stage

22:14

that we don't have answers? And

22:16

that's why I think was important. And,

22:18

Ono, obviously, we give

22:20

some thought and some effort to

22:22

whether or not we could have his voice

22:25

represented in the program because he is the man at the

22:27

center of this. No one knows why he did

22:29

what he it would be pretty interesting

22:31

to be able to question him about his

22:33

relationship with Patty Connolly, his

22:35

relationship with the political elite, why

22:37

he was dealt with in the way that he was dealt with by the police

22:39

and by the judicial system. Would

22:41

you have been

22:42

comfortable as a

22:43

contributor to the podcast? if we had been able to

22:46

feature MacArthur talking. I

22:48

guess it just

22:48

depends how that was done.

22:50

I think it's it's all in the production, right,

22:53

and it's all in the homeless of

22:55

the storytelling and how things are framed. I mean, I

22:57

think it's if it was framed, which I don't

22:59

think it would have been as this, like,

23:02

sensational platforming of this

23:04

guy. Obviously, that would

23:06

be ethically dubious.

23:08

I think that Ultimately,

23:11

you

23:11

know, the only person who has

23:13

the answers is

23:15

him. And and just so the people know we did

23:18

make some effort, the BBC were

23:20

concerned about how we went about this, understandably.

23:22

And I went and stood outside

23:24

the house that I believe, the flat

23:26

that I believed MacArthur lives in,

23:29

in the hope that he would emerge onto the street, and

23:31

I would then have the opportunity to approach

23:33

him and say, look, we're making a podcast

23:36

about you. There are lots of unanswered

23:38

questions. Are you willing to speak to

23:40

us? I wanted that to

23:42

happen. I was ready to have

23:44

that encounter with him. It didn't. he didn't

23:46

turn up and we didn't spend weeks

23:48

waiting for him. My

23:50

own journalistic instinct would have been to keep out it

23:52

until we did get that opportunity because

23:55

only he can answer some of those questions.

23:57

But I would have misgivings about it because

23:59

if he sees

24:01

the opportunity to present himself

24:04

as something that we don't believe that he is,

24:06

or someone who's treated unfairly, which is

24:08

what he seems to implied that he was

24:10

kept in prison for longer than most other people

24:12

convicted of brutal murders, and that's

24:15

true. You know, there there is a

24:17

fascination with why that happened. and

24:19

who is he? Why did he do what he

24:21

did? We still don't know that. And that's

24:23

why we keep coming back to them and why maybe we'll

24:25

continue to keep coming back to Thanks

24:28

to Una Ampo for joining this

24:31

conversation.

24:31

While we were

24:32

making the series, we contacted the

24:35

Irish police. to ask if Malcolm has ever been

24:37

categorically ruled out as a suspect in the murder

24:39

of Charles South back in nineteen

24:41

eighty two. The

24:42

Guardian told us they are, quote, not in a position to

24:44

provide any details into the murder of

24:46

Charles Self, as it remains an ongoing

24:49

investigation.

24:50

Upseeing the

24:55

Dublin

24:56

scandal is a BBC Studios

24:59

podcast for BBC Radio

25:01

five Live and BBC Science.

25:03

The series producer is me, Aventorical

25:06

Comer. This bonus episode was produced by

25:08

Tess Davidson. The executive producer is Paul

25:10

Smith. Our music's by Jeremy

25:12

Warmsley. The commissioning

25:14

executive for BBC is

25:16

Dylan Huskins.

25:24

How many

25:25

people who have been on the

25:28

FBI's most wanted list? I

25:30

never sat down for a podcast with

25:32

the BBC see. For

25:33

over a decade, a pair of mug

25:36

shots have lived side by side

25:38

on the FBI's website. These

25:40

individuals are considered

25:42

as terrorists. In two thousand five,

25:44

they were called the number one

25:46

domestic terror threat in America.

25:48

Estimates are a quarter billion dollars in

25:50

damages. The cause of their actions,

25:52

the environment. Our

25:54

purpose was direct action

25:56

to disrupt environmental production.

25:59

How far

25:59

is too far to go to stop the

26:02

planet burning? If it's not me, then

26:04

it's who. And if it's not now, then it's wet and then wet

26:06

and

26:06

then it's wet. Bern

26:09

Wild. Find us now on

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When

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the

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headlines divide us, creativity

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can bring us together. If

26:21

I know something that's really precious

26:24

to you, and you know something that's really precious to

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me, we start off having a much

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better conversation. That

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was renowned cellist, Yo Yo

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