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Ah. Ah. Ah. Right.

1:17

Welcome to Off Air. It's Wednesday. The

1:19

sun is beating down. And summer has

1:21

arrived unexpectedly and with no warning,

1:24

but it won't last. Oh, stop

1:26

it. Well, it won't. No, but also, I think you just,

1:28

I don't know what happened to you over the weekend.

1:30

I don't know whether you're going to be able to

1:32

get to the beach or not. But

1:35

I think you're going to be able to get to the

1:37

beach. I'm going to be able to get to the beach.

1:39

I'm going to be able to get to the beach. I

1:41

don't know what happened to you over the weekend. I

1:43

don't know whether you were just lolling around in

1:45

your chamber during the periods of

1:47

sunshine. But it was this hot and sunny

1:49

on Saturday. Yeah, it was briefly. I

1:52

think I forgot about that. Yeah, there was the whole Saturday.

1:54

It was gorgeous. I don't know what I did. Anyway.

1:56

I don't know what it's quite. I never stay in my

1:59

bedroom, by the way. do that even if I'm

2:01

ill I always get up and go downstairs and wear

2:03

a support garment. Do you? Yeah I absolutely I cannot

2:05

bet even when I had Covid I still

2:08

got fully dressed. Make the bed?

2:10

Yes shut the door behind

2:12

you. All of those all of those things

2:14

never never linger in your chambers unless you

2:16

have absolutely no other option. I think

2:19

it's the Garvey rule. I think it's one

2:21

of the great adult pleasures to occasionally go

2:23

back to bed and have a bit of

2:26

a nap in the afternoon. I love it.

2:28

You've given in. No no not at all

2:30

not at all. I think it's the complete

2:32

opposite because so so you

2:34

are probably the same. I just could

2:36

never do a slobbish lion as a

2:39

teenager or a student. I was

2:41

always up by 8.30. Were you? Yeah

2:43

I didn't really. I didn't really stay in bed

2:45

either. Never did that lolling around. So I'm with

2:47

you on the getting up in the morning

2:49

thing but I love going back to bed

2:51

for a kip. And I think I have

2:54

a Presbyterian streak because I've always thought no

2:56

television before 7pm unless it's a state occasion.

2:58

Yeah no I'm with you on that. Okay. I never

3:00

ever ever ever ever have a drink before 6. I

3:03

mean like to comical effect. 17.59

3:09

she's standing hopefully by the

3:11

clock. Just pouring it very. No

3:13

I think we've both established.

3:15

We've just incredibly respectable. Yes

3:18

in some ways. Do you ever feel it might

3:20

break down? Well we've just

3:22

run around having an orgy of

3:24

disreputable behavior. Well I hope so. Maybe

3:28

I'll be a really appalling resident of

3:30

an old folks home. Well it would be

3:32

good wouldn't it. Yeah. So just start a

3:34

bit of a female chasm

3:36

of inappropriateness. Well now the Garret Club is

3:38

open to us. Do we need to explain?

3:40

This is a it's not really a news

3:43

story because it's so little relevance to 99.9%

3:45

of the population. We can explain it very

3:47

quickly. There's a club in London called the

3:49

Garret Club which was set up by someone

3:51

presumably called Garret. And it's

3:54

always been male only and it's

3:56

it used to be for kind of

3:58

showbiz and the elite and writers. Oh,

4:00

was it the Duvartis? I didn't know.

4:02

Well, I think that's why it's in

4:04

the heart of London, it's a reasonable

4:06

way of saying it. And it's really

4:08

dull and full of pompous people. And

4:10

there's this quite distinctive tie. Yeah. And

4:13

they have flags outside and all of that kind

4:15

of malarkey. And they haven't let women

4:18

in as members ever. And there have been

4:20

a couple of kind of pushes at the

4:22

door recently. And then everyone

4:24

got into a right old tizzy and

4:26

suddenly all of these men who'd be

4:28

members for 40 years started

4:32

to say, gosh, this

4:34

is terrible. This is

4:36

terrible. That's the point. It's a

4:38

good point. It's worth making. They

4:40

attended, presumably, this establishment for many

4:42

an evening. And they'd

4:44

never noticed, they had

4:47

never noticed that the only members were

4:49

male. Yeah. And then it all goes

4:51

off on the social media and there's

4:54

some opprobrium thrown their way

4:56

and these thoroughly right-minded individuals

4:59

in brackets men. Well,

5:01

one of them was a shocking

5:03

thing. Yeah. Do you think he

5:06

put on, when he tries to get into the

5:08

membership, do you think he put name, full name,

5:10

state? I think, yeah, what is his name? Gordon

5:12

Sumner. That's a

5:15

Gordon Sumner. Now, I'll tell you what,

5:17

speaking of the balladeers from a certain

5:19

age, we were treated last night to,

5:22

well, we weren't treated to an award.

5:24

Let's just acknowledge the slight

5:26

large gray animal in the room, which was

5:28

that we didn't win, nor did Matt Chorley,

5:30

which we did think was unfair. Nor did

5:33

Hugo Rivkin. And we also thought that was

5:35

unfair. Nor did Kathy Newman. And we also

5:37

thought that was unfair. We're so, so on

5:39

side with our teammates here at Times Radio.

5:41

No, it was, I mean, who cares? If

5:43

you're not, there's nothing, it's like it's the

5:45

equivalent of the office party when you don't work

5:47

in the office, isn't it? You couldn't care less.

5:49

Yeah. And I absolutely guess it, but we're just

5:51

going to talk about it for 20 seconds to

5:53

make ourselves feel better. Well, because all of a

5:55

sudden out of nowhere, this is the auras, which

5:58

is kind of the Oscars of the radio. industry.

6:00

The Oscars are the Oscars

6:02

of the film world. If

6:05

there's any confusion. And

6:07

the Aryas are the Oscars

6:09

of the radio world. And

6:12

audio. And audio world. So

6:15

we were there at the theater

6:17

royal in Drury Lane. Jane and

6:19

I managed to have a tiny

6:21

little fish up above. Which is

6:23

very welcome. Long evening. And

6:26

along comes a tribute

6:28

to Steve Wright. And so

6:31

there should have been. It was absolutely

6:33

right to deal with two tributes last

6:35

night. One was to Annie Nightingale, which

6:37

was really beautiful and wonderful. And her

6:39

daughter accepted a lifetime achievement award with

6:42

her two sons. And then

6:44

Steve Wright. There was a montage of

6:46

some of the great and the good

6:48

in radio and his colleagues paying tribute

6:50

to him. And then who arrived on

6:52

stage in a pale blue Karuna suit.

6:54

Well I think to would

6:56

it be fair to say universal surprise. It

6:59

was no lesser popular Karuna

7:01

than Mr. Marty

7:03

Pellow. Yeah. What was

7:05

the name of his group? Wet, wet, wet. That's

7:08

it. He was

7:10

bone dry last night. If anyone's worried about

7:12

that. Um I imagine there's been a leak

7:14

in the ceiling. But there

7:16

wasn't. And then the headline would have been

7:18

wet, wet, wet, wet. I

7:21

wonder if they ever did a gig which

7:24

outside in really inclement weather.

7:26

No, this is facile.

7:28

Uh, Marty Pellow appeared and he of course

7:30

sang the song that was the Four Weddings

7:32

and a Funeral big hit. Well the Witcher

7:35

to Line Man. Yeah well that was that's

7:37

what people know him for. What was that

7:39

blooming Four Weddings and the Funeral song? Love

7:42

is all around. Anyway we're going

7:44

off tangent here because last night he sang which

7:47

is not unusual is it? Because that was the

7:49

theme tune that Steve Wright in the afternoon had

7:51

for the big show. So

7:53

he sang it. He really did

7:55

Karuna's way through it didn't he?

7:59

Yeah. I

8:01

didn't actually pick up on that. That was... The

8:03

Witch to Alignment was the theme

8:06

song for Steve Wright's afternoon show. Yes. I

8:09

suppose it was the sweeping string version.

8:11

Yeah. Yeah, I'm afraid I didn't realise

8:13

that. Oh, God. I'm just not as musical as you.

8:15

It's really absurd. I appreciate your rights. That's true. Anyway,

8:18

it was a slightly... It was

8:21

a bit odd. But

8:23

then that's kind of the spirit of

8:26

these events. But Steve Wright

8:28

much missed. And I

8:30

think it's... Who was it who said on the film

8:32

tribute that he wouldn't have enjoyed the tribute very much?

8:34

So it was Chris Mars. He said he would have hated

8:37

every single second of it. And

8:40

the funny fact is that Steve Wright never won a

8:42

Sony. Which

8:44

is the precursor to the Arias,

8:47

which is astonishing because then the

8:49

whole industry mourned his piercing. But

8:52

he had not won the big gongs all

8:54

through his life, which makes it just odd.

8:56

You've got to wonder about the criteria, which to

8:58

loop back to the beginning movie shouldn't worry that

9:01

we didn't win. We are not worried. We're basically

9:03

like Steve Wright. Yeah. Just

9:05

the greats never get recognised. Right.

9:10

Shall we do some emails? Who's coming

9:12

up as our guest today? Well,

9:14

it's Martin Freeman and Tony Schumacher.

9:16

Now, Tony is a former police

9:18

officer and he is the

9:20

screenwriter of the BBC series The Responder, which

9:22

is about an overnight police

9:25

patrol officer in Liverpool. That's right,

9:27

isn't it? That is right. Played

9:29

by Martin Freeman in The Responder. It's the

9:32

second series and it's all out now on

9:34

the iPlayer, but I'm watching it in a

9:36

normal weekly way because as we

9:38

outlined at the beginning of this edition of our

9:40

fair, I have respectable habits. I'm not a

9:42

binger. I'm also

9:45

really boring. But

9:50

Martin Freeman is he is a great actor,

9:52

actually. Yeah. I think we both agree

9:54

that this is a it's a doer old

9:56

show. Do me. Yeah, it is.

9:59

So the second season has got two

10:01

threads in it. One is a

10:04

young chap looking after his

10:06

baby because the mother of

10:08

his baby has to go and serve some

10:10

time in prison and he's never been with

10:12

a baby before, doesn't know what to do

10:15

with a baby. That just gives me the

10:17

geegles, the absolute geegles as to how that's

10:19

going to pan out. I haven't got to

10:21

that bit yet. I'm dreading it. Right. But

10:23

there's also what was in season one and

10:25

incredibly I thought clever

10:27

and dignified treatment

10:30

of a horrible coercive control

10:32

relationship and that's rearing its

10:34

head again in quite an oppressive way.

10:36

So I just put that out there

10:39

because I think you have to be in the right kind

10:41

of mood to watch the responder. If

10:43

you're looking for something to lighten

10:45

your load, this isn't it. I'd

10:47

turn on Masterchef. Even

10:50

that had a little bit of a tricky

10:52

missing finger. Oh my God, what happened? Incident

10:55

season as well. Well, there was an accident

10:57

on set. Oh there was. Yeah.

11:00

Oh, it's better off. We just stick to country file and don't

11:02

watch anything else. Okay. Now I

11:04

need to clear something up because we

11:06

were talking about cohabitants and their rights

11:08

and whether or not you have any

11:10

rights at all, even if you've had

11:12

children after you separate, if you've not

11:14

been married. We're going to

11:16

chuck this out actually to our

11:18

fantastic money man, Adam Shaw, who's

11:20

going to look into the absolute

11:22

detail of it. But a couple

11:25

of you have written in and I'm just going to read Carol's

11:27

email. I don't mind being

11:29

corrected ever Carol. So please don't ever

11:31

think that you can't shout back

11:34

at the audio as we now have to call

11:36

it. You are correct that there's no

11:38

such thing as a common or wife or husband.

11:41

Further, you're correct that cohabitants have no rights

11:43

against each other for financial support or the

11:45

provision of a home when the relationship breaks

11:48

down. But this is the case. Even if

11:50

the unmarried couple have children, if they're joint

11:52

owners of a home, then they will probably

11:54

have to sell and split the net proceeds

11:56

between them according to their beneficial interests, but

11:59

neither can explain. the other to maintain

12:01

them in any way or form. The

12:03

children have rights against their cohabiting parents

12:05

for maintenance, often the father who's the

12:07

main earner and living apart from them

12:09

or possibly court orders under the children's

12:12

Act 1989 for certain

12:14

financial provisions, including those

12:16

for a home during their minority if

12:18

the cohabitant has a property or sufficient

12:20

assets. Now that's all a bit wordy,

12:23

but I think the basics of it are,

12:26

I don't want to get this wrong again Jane, that

12:29

the children have the rights, not necessarily the

12:31

woman or man. However, the mother

12:33

will have more rights against the

12:35

father or vice versa for financial

12:37

support than a cohabitant without children.

12:39

I fear that the suggestion that

12:41

the cohabitant with kids might be

12:43

in a similar situation as a

12:45

married wife or mother is misleading.

12:48

It's a very complicated area and

12:50

indeed it's extremely important that the

12:52

cohabitants with kids should really think

12:54

carefully about their potential situation should

12:56

the relationship break down. I

13:00

completely agree with you on that, it's just so much easier

13:02

said than done. I think it's still

13:04

one of those incredibly difficult conversations

13:07

to have at the beginning of a

13:09

relationship or when a relationship starts

13:11

to creak. I'm not sure, I

13:13

know of anybody who's managed to sit down and

13:15

say, look, if this is going to be

13:17

the end result and we split up, are

13:19

we legally protected now? Who's

13:22

going to say, look, I'm really not sure

13:24

about our prospects, can we get married or

13:27

have a civil partnership because at least then

13:29

we'll be all right. You

13:32

just don't do that, do you? You don't think like that, it

13:35

doesn't happen. No, and

13:37

it's the underbelly of love and hope

13:39

that is just so grim for so many. But

13:41

Carol, thank you for all of that. And Carol

13:44

has been a lawyer for decades dealing with

13:46

all of these types of issues.

13:49

So absolutely knows what she's talking about. For

13:51

those of us who are unclear, we

13:53

will ask Adam to do that section on the programme probably

13:55

in two weeks time. And Jane and I will flag it

13:58

up again if you want to have a listen. It's

14:00

very easy to go back and listen to

14:02

the show, Jane. How good people do that?

14:04

Well, they can get the Times Radio app.

14:07

And how much does that cost, V? Absolutely

14:09

nothing. Nothing at all. Just get it. And

14:11

then you can not only hear off air,

14:13

you can hear a range of wonderful podcasts

14:15

provided by our colleagues here at the Times.

14:18

And also, you can listen again. You can

14:20

just roll back in Radio Time on Times

14:22

Radio. And where we still won't have won

14:24

an award. Well, none of

14:26

us will have won an award. But

14:28

that's not the point. It's not quite...

14:31

We were in the business of public service. We're not in

14:34

that anymore. We come to work because we like it. And

14:38

we'd only be cluttering up our houses if we

14:40

were not here. This

14:42

is from Wendy, who has an important query.

14:44

And this is proof that there is no

14:47

niche too teeny for a

14:49

podcast. Hello, ladies. I've

14:52

been trying for a while to

14:54

recall and or locate a poem from

14:56

my childhood about flowers, which contains the

14:58

line, and peonies spread too wide. So

15:02

just imagine Wendy's excitement fee. When Jane

15:05

started extolling the virtues of peonies just

15:07

the other day, it's a

15:09

poem about the characteristics of different flowers. But

15:11

that line about peonies is the only one

15:13

I can recall. I have

15:15

asked my primary school teacher friends, as

15:18

well as Jeeves, of course, but no

15:20

luck so far. So I'm hoping one

15:22

of your listeners will be able to

15:24

put me out of my misery. So

15:26

what is the poem that contains the

15:28

line, and it's about the qualities of

15:30

flowers and peonies spread too wide?

15:33

Wendy is in agony. She's in

15:35

Hertfordshire as well. And she needs

15:37

to know the answer to that.

15:39

Someone will know. They certainly will.

15:42

Yeah. Okay. I'm

15:44

very struck by your love of the

15:46

peonies, actually. And I've never really I've

15:48

never thought about just how blousy they

15:51

are. Just fabulous. But they are, aren't

15:53

they? They're a great big super woofing

15:55

kind of warm,

15:57

luscious. Yes. Cleavage.

16:00

If it was the 1970s and

16:02

peonies were all female, people

16:04

would say things like, she's

16:07

asking for trouble. They

16:11

probably would have done. I'm going out like that.

16:13

You fix that. With all her blousy petals on

16:15

show. Nope,

16:19

good outcome of that. Well, indeed. And that is what

16:21

they would have said. Now, I know you're about to

16:23

move on to the subject of road rage and fighting,

16:25

aren't you? And there is a great story. I

16:28

have a great story. It's just an illustration and it's

16:30

everywhere in all the papers today. And this

16:32

man's been found guilty so we can we're

16:34

all right to report it. It's about a

16:36

driver who was filmed screaming abuse at a

16:38

woman after she had sounded her

16:41

horn at him for cutting her up. And

16:43

this man, he's called Peter Abbott. He

16:46

is now potentially going to go

16:48

to prison. We're awaiting the sentence,

16:50

but he left his car and

16:52

approached a woman's vehicle after a

16:54

minor incident outside of petrol station

16:56

in August of last year. I

16:59

mean, I won't repeat what he said, but he was horrendously

17:01

abusive, really unpleasant

17:03

language. And his face, which

17:06

the woman has photographed, is

17:08

just scrunched up in awful.

17:12

Let's be honest. I mean,

17:15

he's just hideous, isn't it? He's a snarling,

17:18

awful looking bloke. However,

17:20

and I, by the way, I hope he does go to prison.

17:22

And I hope people take notice of this story. And what

17:25

I really when I read about this,

17:27

I just thought, wow, I've either been

17:29

very close to that or

17:32

nearly lived it on so many occasions

17:34

because I and I'm by the way, not

17:36

always on the on the victim side either,

17:38

because I truly believe that when we get

17:40

behind the wheel of a car, we

17:43

all change. And on the whole,

17:45

not for the better. Yes, I agree. And it

17:47

can only be a little box. It

17:49

really is. And this guy

17:51

is the living proof of what can go wrong

17:53

when you just have a really

17:55

minor little disagreement with another driver

17:58

about something utterly irrelevant. and

18:02

you just go like that. The rage comes

18:04

in. Absolutely. And it's terrifying.

18:06

So Christine has witnessed a little bit of

18:08

that too. I was coming out of the

18:11

Lyceum Playhouse, I'm sorry, contractually obliged not to

18:13

say she had to offer him Christine. A

18:15

few weeks ago when a male cyclist collided

18:17

with a male pedestrian, immediately they started to

18:20

fight with the pedestrian, forcing the cyclist onto

18:22

the ground in a choke hold. People

18:25

were watching and even filming whilst the cyclist

18:27

was going peace and appearing to lose consciousness.

18:30

I, a 71 year old female, couldn't stand

18:32

by as the cyclist was being throttled.

18:35

So I approached the young and very strong

18:37

pedestrian and lightly put my hand on his

18:40

arm saying calmly, come on son, don't do

18:42

something, you'll regret. Another

18:44

lady also started to come over at

18:46

that stage and thankfully the pedestrian stood

18:48

and walked away. I too

18:50

was really surprised at the immediate violence which

18:52

occurred but mostly surprised that no one was

18:54

prepared to intervene. But we're happy to watch

18:57

and even film the scene, a sign of

18:59

the times perhaps. Well Christine,

19:01

you are brave to walk into

19:03

that situation, especially as a 71

19:05

year old woman. I'm

19:08

just really alarmed that nobody

19:10

else did that first

19:13

actually. And I agree with you that

19:15

when you see people filming stuff instead

19:17

of intervening, you just really worry for

19:19

the human race, don't you? But

19:23

also it's the speed that I

19:25

was trying to get at with the fight

19:27

that we witnessed and that's what Christine is

19:29

saying too. It's just there isn't a pause

19:32

before the violence kicks in.

19:34

And we had a couple of emails

19:37

saying, well maybe what you're witnessing is

19:39

the result of working too

19:42

many shifts or being

19:44

stressed and anxious and

19:46

up against it as many, many

19:48

delivery riders are. And

19:50

I would completely agree and want

19:52

to be sympathetic but it's the

19:54

go-to where the immediate reaction is

19:57

just to hurt somebody.

20:00

that I'm not

20:02

sure that I want to mitigate that actually, if

20:04

I can be honest Jane, with

20:06

the circumstances of somebody's

20:09

back story. I think that is a place

20:12

that you can get to in an argument

20:14

about violence, but I don't

20:16

think I want to ever accept that there's

20:18

a kind of, I don't

20:21

know, you don't want

20:23

there to be an excuse for it. Well there

20:25

shouldn't be an excuse for extreme violence. I

20:28

mean, because otherwise every single

20:30

person who is living in difficult

20:33

circumstances would be able to

20:35

make the excuse that I was driven to it

20:37

because I can't pay my

20:39

electricity, and I'm not in any way undermining

20:41

how difficult things are. And I

20:43

get it about the delivery drivers actually, because I think

20:46

we look away from that form of work too often.

20:53

Most of us are on the receiving end, aren't

20:55

we? We're not doing that work ourselves.

20:57

And if you

21:00

pause to think about what that

21:02

shift work is like, it is absolutely horrendous.

21:04

And actually there's a very good piece by

21:06

our colleague, who's named

21:08

temporarily, you know the guy who always,

21:11

consumer correspondent Harry, Harry Wallop. Thank you.

21:13

He's done a shift as a delivery

21:15

driver written about it in the Times.

21:18

And it's very revealing, and that's really revealing

21:20

in itself, isn't it? A

21:23

lot of us don't know somebody doing that work

21:25

forever and ever and ever. So

21:28

we need to go and read about somebody

21:30

taking it up as a kind of a

21:32

journalistic challenge. Good on him for doing

21:34

it, but I think he worked out that he was only making five

21:36

pounds an hour. Right, so

21:38

thank you for all of those

21:40

things. And Christine, stay safe. Stay

21:42

safe, brave woman. And I

21:44

hope that that never happens to you again. She

21:48

was very brave to intervene. And I think she said, what was

21:50

it she said exactly? Remind me what it was

21:52

she said. So she said, come

21:54

on, son, don't do something you'll regret. Yeah, and I

21:56

think that's a fantastic way of putting it because let's

21:59

be honest, a punch. kill someone. And

22:01

then you're in jail for a minimum of,

22:03

well, if you get life, that's 11 years,

22:05

you'll be surveyed. They're dead. And they're dead.

22:08

Don't do it. Yes, and

22:10

they're dead. Good point. Let's

22:13

move to Canadian Corner. We

22:15

welcome listeners all over the

22:17

Commonwealth. And this

22:19

is from Jocelyn. She's a Brit, but

22:21

she's living with another Brit in Canada.

22:24

For the past 20 years, she says she's angry

22:26

with us because we were rude about sketches.

22:30

Sketchers shoes are in my world.

22:33

And they're wonderful. I wear them to work every

22:35

shift as a nurse. They are so comfortable when

22:37

you're on your feet for long hours. And this

22:40

is probably a back to your point actually about

22:42

the actual reality of working life for

22:44

many people. And they are supportive

22:47

of the lower back and knees as they

22:49

have a cushion sole, a wide

22:51

range of designs and colors as well. I

22:53

also wear them with my summer dresses when

22:55

exercising and when I'm also dressed to go

22:57

out for the night. My hubby

22:59

also has two pairs of slip

23:01

on sketches. Again, busy lives slip

23:04

on and you're out and ready to

23:06

go. They are comfortable,

23:08

they're supportive and they're on trend.

23:11

I found your comments upsetting. Jocelyn,

23:15

we are sorry. No, seriously.

23:17

Okay. Well, you will

23:20

be in sketches the next time we go

23:22

out of an evening because last time we

23:24

had to walk up the most astonishing number

23:26

of stairs and into back rooms and little

23:28

rooms and doing interview here and doing interview.

23:30

It was all backstage, wasn't it? Oh yeah.

23:33

By the way, everybody was 23. They were, weren't

23:35

they? We were definitely, we were the

23:37

oldest, we were definitely the oldest people

23:40

on that stage. I was like a

23:42

Chelsea pensioner to rave. But

23:45

also you had your new shoes

23:47

on and you were wearing your

23:50

open-toed circles. Were you wearing them

23:52

with some light American tan type?

23:54

A nude. I've never understood American

23:56

tan. Oh, I used to wear American

23:58

tan at school. But how, I mean,

24:01

America is a very, very big place. Over 50

24:03

states. How can you just have

24:05

one American tan? Well, it's cobblers anyway, isn't

24:07

it? Because of, you know, skin colours and

24:09

Caucasian. Exactly. I mean, it's just

24:12

cobblers. It is all utterly cobblers. But I think

24:14

it is very challenging to wear an open-toed fandel

24:16

with a tight, especially when

24:18

you're having to go up and downstairs

24:20

in the dark. And the woman, I

24:22

thought, gosh, this evening might be memorable

24:24

for very different reasons. Has anybody... We got

24:26

the tribute ready! She's

24:29

gone! While

24:31

we're all here! Oh,

24:33

you horrible thing! I did say

24:35

last night, if the worst comes to the worst, in

24:37

the nicest possible way, I do not want Marty Pellow singing,

24:40

which... Right,

24:42

we're still in Canada, in the company

24:44

of Jane. Who...

24:47

get this, Fi? Yeah, she went to the

24:49

same school as me. If you're a cornflower,

24:51

you're particularly welcome here on our fair. She

24:54

says there's nothing... Can you imagine, Fi? There's nothing

24:56

here on live radio in Canada for women that

24:58

compares to the women of the UK. Oh, that's

25:00

terrible! On the radio. I find

25:02

it very sad. I think North America is

25:05

really sanitised on women's issues. Gosh! I think

25:07

there's probably... I mean, obviously, this is a

25:09

huge generalisation, but we are allowed in this

25:11

country to be pretty explicit on

25:13

all sorts of radio programmes about

25:15

women and our lot. And

25:17

I suspect that may not be true in

25:19

North America, because they can be surprisingly prudish,

25:22

can't they? Yeah, about certain things. Anyway,

25:25

what Jane really emailed to say was

25:27

how much she also loves those books

25:29

by Kristin Hannah. And I've

25:31

so got into this book, The Women, which

25:33

I think is a rather odd title for

25:35

a book that's actually about what it was

25:37

like to serve as a nurse in Vietnam.

25:39

And honestly, it's so absorbing. I'm not reading

25:41

it. I'm listening to it. I really recommend

25:43

it if you've got a long flight coming

25:45

up or something like that. Treat yourself

25:47

to this as an audio book. It's so...

25:50

it just takes you there. But

25:53

actually, Jane says that Kristin's written lots

25:55

of other good books, including The Nightingale.

25:57

She says they are indeed sagas, well-written.

26:00

well researched. I must

26:02

add that the Nightingale actually inspired

26:04

my local hiking group of intrepid

26:06

Canadian women to travel to Europe

26:08

and hike from Spain into France.

26:10

That's impressive isn't it? Well it

26:12

is although it can in

26:14

places be quite a narrow border. I mean you could

26:16

start just to eat in France and just

26:19

cross over there. That's Spain. Cross the border.

26:21

That isn't what they did. No I know. They went

26:23

on a much much longer walk. But so I'm just

26:25

saying if you've got a few fortunate enough to have

26:27

a holiday coming up and you

26:30

want a book that would take you

26:32

to another place then I do advise something

26:34

by Kristin Hannah. What's so interesting about this

26:36

book about Vietnam is first of all I

26:38

didn't know anything about it but secondly the

26:41

second half of the book is about what life is like

26:43

when she goes back home and to be blunt about it

26:45

no one's interested no one asks

26:48

and worse than that people

26:50

spit at her in the street and apparently this

26:52

all happened to people who

26:54

served in Vietnam. Yeah. I didn't know.

26:56

There poor mental health was exacerbated by

26:59

just an extraordinary

27:04

reaction in some parts of America. It

27:06

does it alarm me as I age

27:08

how little I know so for example

27:10

until we did Boy Swallows Universe in our

27:12

book club I didn't know that Australian troops

27:14

had served in Vietnam and I

27:17

know that Britain was kept out of it but I

27:19

didn't and I you know you just you just don't

27:21

know do you? No and there's you're never too old

27:23

to learn. No at all. Phil

27:26

O'Kee? Human League

27:28

yeah. Could he sing at the

27:30

tribute? I

27:33

mean if Cliff is still alive. Right

27:38

anyway let's not think too much about your demise

27:40

because that would be very

27:42

very very sad. Right this

27:44

one comes from Rach and

27:46

Beck because we met Rach

27:55

last night. We did. Did we? And we also

27:57

who else do we meet? We met Leslie. Leslie that's

27:59

right. Yep. So thank you all for

28:01

coming to say hello to us. We didn't move

28:03

because we're too elderly. We were just sitting at

28:06

the front, weren't we, with our great big handbags on our

28:08

lap. It

28:10

was like my nan at Wist, I have to say.

28:12

But anyway, it's like we were just, you know, we

28:14

were basically waiting for the coach

28:16

to depart. I'm

28:20

going to save your fantastic email for

28:22

our email special because it's all about

28:24

being twins and it's got some really

28:26

interesting stuff in there that I'd never

28:29

heard before. Our email special, Jane, is...

28:31

Well, we're going to pump it out

28:33

to the nation on Friday. Is

28:35

that right? I'm looking at Eve and she's just about

28:37

awake and she agrees that that is indeed what's happening.

28:40

Lovely. Kay says, there have

28:42

been stories now and then along the lines

28:44

of entitlement.com. Thank you for apologising for Noel

28:47

Edmunds' presence in New Zealand as the title

28:49

of that email. Oh, now

28:51

some people are annoyed about us disagreeing. Emma's

28:54

still watching Grease and Pretty Woman. I

28:57

was listening to your chat about the dreadful messages

28:59

inherent in them and I want to email this

29:01

argument always riles me up a bit. I'd

29:04

argue that Great Art doesn't need to have a

29:06

moralistic message to it. Wouldn't it be

29:08

so boring if everything stood the test of time

29:10

perfectly? Let's not forget that Grease was filmed in

29:12

the 70s and set in the 50s. Why

29:15

would the characters hold the beliefs and express the

29:17

values of 2024? It wouldn't make

29:19

any sense. I

29:22

totally get the point that obviously not everything

29:24

has to have a moral

29:28

message. I still

29:30

hate the message of Grease. I'm not going

29:32

to change any time soon. I

29:36

think I'm annoyed that we were fed

29:38

that idea growing up and

29:40

that we've never quite been able to shake it. Yeah,

29:43

I think that's what irritated me about Grease.

29:46

I didn't like the feeling that all of

29:48

the boys were laughing at the girls because

29:51

that was absolutely what was happening in our

29:53

reality too. I didn't like seeing it played

29:55

out on the big screen

29:57

and that kind of ganged me. thing

30:00

of, you know, if everybody

30:02

doesn't fancy the girl that

30:04

you fancy, then you're not allowed to fancy

30:07

her. It just, it didn't seem to give

30:09

an awful lot of hope to those of

30:11

us who weren't being universally fancied by large

30:13

roaming packs of men. Although some troubling

30:15

aspects of the film,

30:18

not least the fact that all the pupils at this

30:20

high school weren't set. It was a little odd. Yeah.

30:25

So anyway, Emma, I completely appreciate that Emma

30:27

says she's 32. Grease was one of my

30:31

favourite films as a child, and it still

30:33

is now. And I can assure you that

30:35

I've not once got a perm, given up

30:37

my entire personality in wardrobe, and started smoking

30:39

to make a man notice me. Do you

30:41

know what, Emma, I think you're just a

30:43

stronger woman than, you know, perhaps Jane and

30:46

I are or have been,

30:48

but I just remember at the

30:50

time thinking that I really needed to

30:52

love Grease. Yeah. And then there just

30:54

was that moment of awakening on watching

30:56

it again, where my older self

30:59

was allowed to go, Oh, actually, no, that

31:02

bit didn't, didn't feel right. But at the

31:04

time, I joined in with it, absolutely joined

31:07

in with it. And I really, really wanted

31:09

those hot pants. Well, I got a perm.

31:12

I give you pictures. I think there

31:14

are some where. Okay,

31:16

well, I pay very good money for that. How's

31:20

Alexa doing? Well, I

31:22

said thank you to her today, because I

31:24

was really, it's quite funny that I

31:26

picked up on a message that we had yesterday, from

31:29

someone saying manners are everything and they make

31:31

us the woman. So today, when I

31:33

asked her to stop doing something, I did say

31:35

thank you. However, she couldn't

31:37

respond because obviously the thank you was not

31:39

what she was programmed to be

31:42

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32:57

is Planet Hope from The Times in

33:00

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33:02

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we hear from leading experts from around the

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protect our home, Earth. Listen

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now wherever you get your podcasts. Right,

33:22

shall we go into our guestie guests?

33:24

Yes, on you go. Today it's Martin

33:26

Freeman and Tony Schumacher. They are our

33:28

big guests, the men who are bringing

33:31

us The Responder. It is a cop

33:33

show on the BBC right now. Tony

33:35

is the former policeman turned writer behind

33:37

the highly acclaimed drama, and Martin stars

33:40

as Chris, who's part of the late

33:42

night police response team in Liverpool, dealing

33:44

with drugs, gangs, poverty, and deprivation, the

33:46

combination of all of the bad stuff.

33:49

And in the first series it took

33:51

its toll on his personal life. He

33:53

and his wife split up on screen, that

33:55

is. So the twisting threads are all there.

33:57

I asked Martin where we find Chris. in

34:00

season two? Chris is a

34:02

few months down the line from where we last saw him in series

34:04

one and series one never really

34:06

found him in very fine mental

34:09

or emotional health so in order

34:11

to try to rectify that he's taking baby

34:13

steps for making his life a little bit

34:15

better so has joined a men's

34:18

group where I think it's fair

34:20

to say he probably just plans on being a bit of

34:22

a spectator for the time being a bit of a passenger

34:25

but he's heard he's heard tell that it's quite

34:27

good if you kind of join a group and

34:29

talk about stuff so I don't think he's planning

34:31

on volunteering a load of things but I think

34:33

he just wants to find out the lay of

34:36

the land about what this is actually like if

34:38

you join a group for I

34:40

suppose there's mainly but not all middle-aged

34:42

men who just have stuff

34:44

to get off their chest and I guess

34:46

that the whole sort of talking therapy is

34:48

his idea of well maybe this

34:50

could help because he had some counseling

34:52

with the police it was very unsatisfactory

34:54

and also he would have run out

34:57

of that because they only do it for a finite time and

35:00

I think you know he's struggling enough that

35:02

he wants to try to make sense of

35:04

how I think how he could make his

35:06

life a little bit better

35:08

a little bit happier have either of

35:10

you two ever done the men's group thing

35:12

I haven't I haven't I haven't I always the

35:14

only thing I can liken it soon is years ago

35:16

when you go to the pub and you'd be with

35:18

a load of mates and you

35:21

would talk about things that you know you

35:23

possibly wouldn't talk about in

35:25

other ways but I mean obviously alcohol was involved and

35:27

so it was I mean I

35:29

was 13 so but it was like um but

35:32

I mean the idea for the men's group for

35:36

this thing I always think about Chris is like he's

35:38

like he's lost in a forest of emotions you know

35:40

and he's just looking for a path he's

35:42

just you know and he's trying all sorts

35:44

of things and you know if

35:47

we did another show I think he'd be

35:49

trying something else probably you know but that's

35:52

what makes his character just

35:54

so very watchable and very

35:56

appealing because he's a good man isn't

35:58

he but he is fragile and

36:00

he's up against it and he

36:02

just doesn't always make the best

36:05

decisions. Yeah I think he's just trying

36:07

to be good. I think he's essentially

36:09

decent as in he's not he's

36:13

certainly not a terrible person but I think

36:16

he partly the job that he finds himself

36:18

in is one of the

36:20

most stressful I could imagine and

36:23

also just his emotional makeup anyway you know

36:25

like even if he ended up driving a

36:27

bus or working in accounts I think he

36:29

would have some of those traits

36:31

that he has as a copper. The thing is as a

36:33

copper you've also got the world coming down on you like

36:35

a ton of bricks literally

36:37

and metaphorically as well so yeah

36:41

I think he's fighting fires on all

36:43

fronts. Yeah do you think Martin that

36:45

it's easier to play a

36:48

good man trying not to be bad or

36:50

a bad man trying to be good?

36:52

Oh I don't know you know I've not played

36:54

enough fundamentally bad men because I think the truth

36:57

is I think if you gave

37:00

me a part that this is a bad man

37:02

I would find a way to make him a

37:04

good man or at least an understandable man but

37:06

I guess because what

37:09

we all know it's such a cliche it

37:11

barely even needs repeating is that nobody wakes

37:13

up in the morning thinking I'm going to

37:15

be a bad person today literally nobody we

37:17

can think of. I mean certain people definitely

37:19

have very little empathy I'm

37:22

sure that's medically true but no one thinks

37:24

that I'm a bad person and I'm okay

37:26

with that you know everyone who's done terrible

37:29

terrible things throughout the course of history thinks

37:31

they're doing the right thing so you

37:33

know you could give me

37:35

a part of anybody and I would try to

37:38

make it for that character to rationalize it and

37:40

make it make them

37:42

a decent person. With some people you definitely have more

37:44

of a struggle than others you know Chris is definitely

37:46

not a bad person but he's a very flawed

37:50

stressed person he's just a sweet, I mean you

37:52

never set off to be genetic nimble do you

37:54

you know you're not going on to be this

37:56

you know a perfect human person. being

38:00

who's constantly apologizing to people. Boom.

38:02

I mean, from my point of view, it's just more

38:05

an interest than happy people who were struggling with something,

38:07

especially themselves. Tony, tell us about

38:09

your experience though within the police force.

38:11

You did 10 years, didn't you, yourself?

38:13

And I mean, I absolutely hear you,

38:15

Martin, what you say about people wanting

38:17

to be good people. But actually

38:19

I think what we're learning more and more about

38:21

the police force is that it can be a

38:23

bit of a hiding place for a bad man.

38:26

And I wonder, Tony, whether you met that

38:28

type of bad man when you

38:30

were there yourself. I think one

38:32

of the problems is that bad men,

38:35

bad people are really good at

38:37

hiding. I think that it's

38:39

like when you hear about terrible people

38:41

who do things to children, they'll find

38:43

a way to leave a position, they'll

38:48

work on a long-term strategy.

38:51

And part of that is hiding in

38:54

plain sight. But I

38:56

don't think I've worked with any, in

39:00

basic comments, bad men. I

39:02

don't think as is. But

39:05

I don't know if I did. I

39:08

don't know if I did. And like

39:10

Martin says, I don't imagine, I

39:12

might be wrong, but I don't imagine that people get

39:14

up in the morning and go, right, this is desire,

39:17

I'm gonna do something really, really bad. And

39:19

there's obviously always outliers. There's obviously

39:23

people who do

39:25

wake up like that, do think today's

39:28

the day. But

39:30

I don't think as is.

39:32

I think the most common

39:35

kind of person I met was human

39:37

beings who were just trying the

39:39

very best. If you were going

39:41

into the police force now, do you think it

39:43

would be a very different experience? It's

39:46

difficult because I know we have the province

39:48

of 20,000 extra police officers and you

39:51

do wanna, you know, if

39:55

you're gonna start putting arbitrary figures on, we need

39:57

to get this many by this amongst the time.

40:00

I do wonder what kind of

40:02

sifting operation has gone on, you

40:04

know, but, you know, these people

40:06

are sophisticated and, you

40:08

know, we've seen that they can find their

40:10

way in, you know, but I

40:12

hope that recent

40:16

events will improve recruitment.

40:19

I really do. Martin,

40:22

can I ask you about your politics? Is that

40:24

okay? Can if you want, yes. Lovely. Good. I

40:26

just wondered where you're at with the Labour Party,

40:29

because I know that you have, you

40:31

know, willingly supported them previously, and

40:34

particularly Jeremy Corbyn. So do

40:36

you rate Keir Starmer?

40:38

Will you be happy to stand alongside

40:41

him this time around? To

40:43

be honest, I'm

40:45

giving it a bit of a swerve at the moment. And

40:48

that's not just, you know, that's not because of

40:51

my opinion of Keir Starmer. It's just because my

40:53

opinion of my own understanding of the world is,

40:56

I think my, the

40:58

best thing I can do for myself and

41:00

for people is to probably stay out a

41:03

bit more. I think in the previously, I've

41:05

been quite goby about stuff and not even

41:07

goby, but you know, you we all have

41:09

a right to say stuff about politics, I

41:11

think is fair enough. And to a certain

41:13

degree, I'm still a political person. But

41:15

I don't, I don't any longer,

41:17

to be honest, feel a great need to

41:19

wear the badge, to be

41:21

honest, because I'm, I'm still working out what I

41:24

think about stuff is the truth. And I think

41:26

while I'm working out what I feel about stuff,

41:28

it feels a little bit disingenuous for me to

41:31

start slinging mud at other people when I think,

41:33

hang on, why do I think I know

41:35

what I think I know? How do I think I

41:37

know that? I mean, what am I basing that on?

41:39

Is that habit? Is it through having

41:41

posters up and t shirts on? Is it or

41:43

is it because I've, because I've really thought through

41:45

all of these issues really, really well. And

41:49

the truth is that that's not always clear for me,

41:51

that becomes gray and not black and white. So yeah,

41:54

to be honest, I mean, I don't mind you asking me

41:56

about my politics. The truth is I don't always know the

41:58

answer these days. That's the truth. Sure. I was

42:00

just wondering though Martin, does some of the kind

42:03

of hurricane and whirlwind of social media have

42:06

something to do with wanting to stay a

42:08

bit quieter as well? Because as soon

42:10

as you are a public figure, you

42:12

are very available to people for 24 hours a day.

42:14

I wonder whether

42:16

you find that a bit much. I mean, I'm not

42:18

on social media. And

42:21

partly for that reason. I always

42:23

wanted less ways for people to get in touch

42:25

with me, not more. I didn't want... I hope

42:27

someone figures out a new way that people can

42:29

communicate with me. I'm quite happy kind of being

42:31

slightly off the grid. And again,

42:34

I think that social media whirlwind is fed

42:37

into the situation that I think we're in

42:39

that is not very healthy, which is us

42:41

just slinging insults at each other. Because

42:44

if you disagree with me, you're a de

42:47

facto bad person and I'm a good person.

42:49

I think it's just very reductive and I

42:51

don't really want to join in that. The

42:54

way I feel about politics is honestly the way

42:56

I feel about art, which is the interesting bits

42:58

and the bits in between and the grey. Not

43:00

the hard black, not the hard white or the hard left

43:02

or the hard right. I

43:05

think the interesting bit is when we actually talk to

43:07

each other and go, oh yeah, I might

43:09

not know the answer to this. I genuinely don't know

43:11

the answer to this. And the older I get, the

43:14

more I think to myself, I really don't know the

43:16

answer. I definitely don't know the answer to that. I

43:18

used to get... When I first sort of nailed my

43:23

colours to the mast many years ago and

43:25

I'd be asked to be on political shows and I

43:27

was new. I knew I was never going to go

43:29

on Question Time ever. Because guess what?

43:32

There's other people on the panel who do this for

43:34

a living. They're doing it for 24 hours a

43:36

day. They're thinking about that trade

43:38

agreement or this subsection of that

43:40

law or whatever. And I'm

43:42

just an actor who comes in and reckons

43:45

some stuff, which I don't think

43:47

is a very edifying sight sometimes.

43:50

No. Well, what a fantastic,

43:52

honest and self-deprecating answer. Tony,

43:55

can we watch Season 2 of

43:57

The Responder safe in the knowledge

43:59

that Chris... who is the viewer,

44:01

we just a really rooting Paul will

44:03

kind of come through it

44:05

in the end. There's no

44:07

spoilers, but he does survive the plane crash. Why?

44:11

No, I literally, literally,

44:14

I, you know, I want people to be

44:16

on a journey with Chris and I want

44:18

people to, to be rooting for him. And,

44:21

you know, I love Chris. We

44:23

love Chris. We don't want anything bad to happen to

44:25

Chris. We want him to get a decent night's sleep

44:27

as well. Martin, the bags under your eyes, I'm worried

44:30

for you. Well, thank you. It's

44:33

a great point. But it's, I've got a two and a

44:36

half year old since I was writing that from a

44:39

position of truth. Life of sleep

44:42

was heavy in my mind. Now

44:45

I just want people to just root for Chris.

44:47

Martin Freeman and Tony Schumacher. Do

44:50

you know, I think it's really difficult when

44:52

you're the actor and the writer talking about

44:54

a series that you really, really want people

44:56

to watch, not to give away too much, but

44:58

at the same time to give away enough

45:00

to tea is a very difficult thing to

45:02

pull off. But I really do

45:05

hope that Chris is okay.

45:07

I think that's the main thing that we

45:10

can take away from that, that he definitely needs a

45:12

kip, that he should

45:14

be all right in the end. Perhaps he'll

45:16

retrain as what could he be? Well,

45:18

I mean, he does start off in this men's group

45:21

and actually, I think, I mean, he could do, he

45:23

could retrain as a counselor. A lot of people do,

45:25

don't they? Maybe a nutritionist. There's

45:27

quite a lot of that going on.

45:29

Well, avocado, a handful of nuts and

45:32

some yogurt. There we are.

45:34

I'm a nutritionist. Give me a

45:36

column. Right. Have a lovely

45:38

however many hours it'll be between pods.

45:40

And we'll see you terrifyingly soon.

45:43

Okay. Well

46:02

done for getting to the end of another

46:04

episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and

46:07

Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie

46:09

Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry

46:11

Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more

46:13

of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's

46:16

Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5. You

46:18

can pop us on when you're pottering around the

46:20

house or heading out in the car on the

46:22

school run or running a bank. Thank you for

46:24

joining us and we hope you can join us

46:26

again on Off Air very soon. That'd be so

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46:30

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