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When you hop on the merry-go-round of

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terms at mintmobile.com Right,

1:14

thank you Eve. Can I just get the prawns

1:16

off my chest? I know you've had a traumatizing

1:18

experience We do need to hear about it. Well,

1:21

it was just a bit weird Jane So I

1:23

was coming in on the 1105 from Doulston Junction

1:28

not Kingsland Junction. We have two

1:30

train stations Which

1:34

is a lovely little trundle through the urban

1:37

landscape Yes all the way down to

1:39

Canary Wharf and And I

1:41

had my headphones on I was listening to some

1:43

music very very loud. What were you listening to? Let's

1:46

just enter your world. Oh,

1:48

okay So I've got a playlist

1:50

on the go at the moment

1:52

that fears from Harry Styles to

1:54

the manic street preachers And

1:56

then it had a bit of Sam Fender in

1:59

and if there's Anybody that

2:01

Sam Fender is speaking

2:03

to with his tales

2:05

of hardship in

2:07

the northeast coast. You darling.

2:09

It's a middle-aged woman in

2:12

her rather plush vegan

2:14

boots hoofing it for

2:16

her full-time job in

2:18

a well-renumerated radio station. But anyway, I love

2:20

his music so I was listening to that.

2:22

And just this very, very weird smell wafted

2:25

across from a woman who

2:27

was sitting opposite me. I was

2:29

sitting about age 27, 28. I

2:34

mean a beautiful complexion, obviously

2:36

very well nourished, well fed,

2:38

whatever woman. And

2:40

she was eating a bag of defrosted prawns. Okay,

2:43

that can't be a lie. I'm

2:45

a Jew but probably past 11 today.

2:47

That is not a mid-morning snack is

2:49

it? It's not but it's because of

2:51

all of the protein Fandango isn't it?

2:53

Because I do quite often see people

2:55

just eating turkey slices from a pack.

2:59

In days of yaw we would have just

3:02

had a bag of hula hoop and thankfully our

3:04

lucky stars. It really would.

3:07

I didn't realise that prawns are having a moment. Well

3:09

I think they're very low fat, high protein aren't

3:11

they? So

3:16

they are having a moment but

3:18

they should not be having a

3:20

moment eating out of a bag.

3:23

Do they actively smell? Oh

3:25

my word. I know there's all

3:27

those stories of when couples break up. It's

3:30

a really good idea, although we're not endorsing it,

3:33

to stitch a

3:35

king prawn into a curtain. Yeah because when

3:37

it goes off it's so rancid. I mean

3:39

I'm just putting it out there. Yeah so

3:41

there's also the thing that fresh fish isn't

3:43

meant to smell of fish is it? That's

3:46

how you tell if fish is fresh. But

3:48

fish does smell. Sorry. If

3:51

a fish smells of fish, don't use

3:53

it. If it smells too fishy it's

3:55

off. Fresh fish shouldn't smell too fishy.

3:57

The expression that something's fishy. Okay.

4:02

But these did with the prawns, there

4:04

was no doubt about it. I'm sure

4:07

she's fine. I mean, what have we

4:09

got to? We've got to 12.30, so

4:11

she's probably knee-deep in

4:13

a bowl of ramen with

4:16

some kimchi and only the

4:18

egg yolk on the side, or is it the egg white? I always get

4:20

those two things. A kombucha. Something

4:23

like that. But anyway, she looked absolutely beautiful and

4:25

lovely, and all hail to her. Just don't do

4:27

it in public. Just have that little snack before

4:29

you get on the tube. Don't do it in

4:32

a closed environment. It's just really unpleasant. I

4:34

agree with you, but I've got to say

4:36

that sometimes, if I have a theater or

4:39

an evening event

4:41

and I'm going straight from work,

4:44

I do sometimes have to eat on the tube. I

4:46

just have to occasionally have a light

4:48

tortilla wrap or something like that. Well,

4:50

I'm very surprised, Jane. No, it's horrible,

4:52

and I don't like myself when

4:54

I do it. Yeah. And I

4:56

mean, we've already had one tale

4:58

that has absolutely repulsed me with

5:01

the idea of you slovenly just

5:03

wending your way home down the

5:05

streets of East West Kensington shoving

5:07

a hamburger in your gulp. I'm

5:09

going to end. I'm a little bit pressed

5:11

on shoving it in. It

5:15

was horrible. It was horrible, and I owned

5:17

up to it. That's all

5:19

I'm saying about that. I still stick to the

5:21

fact that the next day I deserve to hang

5:23

over and I didn't have one. So that is

5:25

brilliant. Yeah. So there you go. But can I

5:27

just ask you why, given that you're forgiving of

5:30

these eating in public

5:32

vulgarities, why you find

5:34

it so distressing for people to have a

5:36

delivery delivered to their house first thing

5:38

in the morning for breakfast? I

5:40

do because you've got right off cop on

5:43

about that. That is absolutely my suburban sue

5:45

coming out there when I see people getting

5:47

I've become my mother or grandmother, grandmothers

5:49

and just think, surely

5:52

you could at least make your own breakfast. Actually,

5:56

that's the little voice I've got shrieking in my head. I don't

5:58

like the voice. I just

6:01

like to admit it. How long do you think it will

6:03

be before you give in to the voice? What?

6:07

And go up to somebody who's getting a gale

6:09

delivered. Don't deliver. Just

6:11

go on to deliver. Oh no, I

6:13

wouldn't get loads of takeaways delivered, but

6:15

not at breakfast. We've got standards. Television

6:18

doesn't go on until 7pm during the

6:20

week. And

6:23

to remind you of those, when you

6:25

hop on the merry-go-round of hypocrisy and

6:27

it spins you in my direction, I'm

6:30

going to keep tabs on your Deliveroo account.

6:33

Well, somebody needs to, certainly. I

6:36

mean, actually, don't even think about it. Sometimes

6:39

I dislike the amount of takeaways

6:42

delivered to our house. Not usually

6:44

me who's responsible. By the way,

6:46

I wouldn't pick one of those

6:48

ramen meals. The kids love them,

6:50

but I find them

6:52

so challenging to eat because I've

6:54

got such poor motor skills that

6:56

the whole assembly of the noodle

6:59

edge and the other bits

7:01

and bobs in the bowl, to me,

7:03

it's more of an assault course than a treat.

7:05

I just can't be bothered. I'm in full agreement

7:07

with them. Right, that's a really... And because you

7:09

seem to need much more, a much wider variety

7:12

of cutlery than is ever offered to you. I

7:14

don't know how long it takes me to eat

7:16

a salad from here. You know, when you go

7:18

to Wagamama and they give you that very odd

7:20

spoon. It's a ladle. I

7:22

am paper. It says the ladle one that you

7:24

have to kind of... Oh, that. Not back. I

7:26

can't work that one at all. And then I

7:28

went to fork for the noodles, and

7:31

then I probably would drink it from the bowl. But

7:33

then it does tend to run down your face, doesn't

7:35

it? Unless you do the slurping, I can't do the

7:37

slurping. I don't think a lady would slurp. I don't

7:40

think either of our mothers would want us to slurp.

7:43

So we won't be doing that. This is a podcast. I

7:45

don't know if anyone's still awake. We

7:47

have got a really interesting guest today. Who is it

7:49

for? It's Martha Lane Fox. We're going to talk to

7:51

her about. She's got loads of things about sitting in

7:53

the House of Lords at the moment, which is a

7:55

busy old place. She's also chancellor

7:57

of the Open University. She is... I

8:00

think she describes herself as a tech

8:02

dinosaur. She was one of the first in with lastminute.com,

8:04

so she's got lots of thoughts about tech. And she

8:06

sold it at just the right time, didn't she? She

8:08

did. She's been a director

8:10

of Twitter, but she's also, she had

8:12

a terrible car accident in Morocco, well

8:16

over a decade ago now, and she broke 26 bones

8:18

in her body, including her pelvis. She had a stroke,

8:21

but she doesn't really

8:24

talk about it or draw attention to it

8:27

at all. And she is

8:29

now in, she's

8:31

doing an amazing fundraising thing, actually raising money

8:34

for three charities that she's patron of, where

8:36

she's walking up the

8:38

UK's three highest peaks.

8:41

So that is Ben Nevis,

8:43

Scarfell Pike and Snowden. Yeah.

8:46

Scarfell Pike. It's

8:48

rare for me to go for a shorter, and for you

8:50

to go for a longer. Is

8:53

it? It is Scarfell Pike. Scarfell Pike, yeah.

8:55

And so we're going to talk to you about

8:58

all of those things in 12 minutes. Well,

9:00

good luck with that. And actually, just

9:02

on a serious note, there is a story in

9:04

the news today, and we are going to be

9:06

discussing this in our health news with Dr. Rachel

9:08

Ward on the Times Radio Show. So if

9:11

you are able to, you can always spool back

9:13

and listen to it on the Times Radio app.

9:15

It'll be at about a quarter past three in

9:18

today, Tuesday's edition of the live radio

9:20

show on Times Radio. But

9:22

this is this study from The Lancet

9:25

calling for bold policy actions to

9:27

promote better lifestyles and reduce the

9:29

incidence of breast cancer. It is the most common

9:32

form of cancer in the world. I didn't know that

9:34

actually. One in four cases,

9:36

though, of breast cancer in the UK

9:38

are preventable, apparently, with thousands of women

9:40

developing the disease every year due to

9:42

low breastfeeding rates or too much alcohol,

9:45

the study says. Now that is, I

9:47

think just that sentence is quite triggering,

9:49

isn't it? I think

9:51

it is probably not good enough, to be honest. I

9:56

think it's really, really difficult.

9:58

And with All of those... The

10:00

thing you need balance it out with

10:02

other factors don't need which that paragraph

10:04

alone doesn't t and use a condemn

10:06

and offices women to a high state

10:09

of anxiety who either and had children

10:11

as chose not to have children can't

10:13

have children or didn't proceed and and

10:15

and also just a hostile to be

10:17

dead if that was a it's actual

10:20

facts we need stig bit deeper than

10:22

we do and I are those just

10:24

one email we've already had on the

10:26

subject from Alex he just says i'm

10:28

just speaking with rage. At this article.

10:31

So now I'm responsible for my

10:33

own breast cancer along with millions

10:35

of other women's because I didn't

10:37

breastfeed long enough. They'll school goes

10:39

on to say the chance of

10:41

breast cancer is reduced by a

10:43

measly four percent every twelve months.

10:46

Yes, a whole twelve months a

10:48

woman breastfeeds. I looked up the

10:50

Uk figures sixty eight percent of

10:52

within breastfeed. Only forty eight percent

10:54

continue beyond six to eight weeks

10:56

Thanks to which have a man

10:58

compiled these facts. Thanks for letting

11:01

me rent says Alex of disease right?

11:03

There's more to the story and we

11:05

hope to discuss a moody so little

11:07

bit later on the radio shows day

11:09

to remember that doctor Any Cannon told

11:11

us. Lastly though, that prostate cancer. Is.

11:14

With cheese. Having Reuters sex is the

11:16

i don't think that you know would

11:18

it make men sell the same way

11:20

the not very sexy it's on you

11:22

that you've got prostate cancer and a

11:24

good least he said see says have

11:26

more sex please proceed to babies more

11:28

I mean it's a super Zooms In

11:30

defense of journalists in this is an

11:32

article written by that and she's great

11:34

as an A. Hey Was is a

11:36

brilliant times journalists and the point of

11:38

the first line or first couple of

11:40

lines in a newspaper story or article

11:42

is to keep reading. and those

11:45

first two lines would keep me reading the

11:47

article so i don't want to criticize the

11:49

all through they articles but i do think

11:51

it's an interesting way of approaching the subjects

11:53

with yes and i don't want to see

11:55

the facts either but i'm i'm saying is

11:57

just that that could be many other balancing

11:59

factors involved in cancer and and

12:02

presumably is true but it's

12:05

the way that you express it so

12:08

you know you're not kind

12:10

of saying it's on you

12:12

if you've got cancer which clearly

12:14

it's already made one person feel

12:16

that feel that it would be

12:18

their fault yeah definitely just needs

12:21

unpicking that we've had so many

12:23

emails about Morris dancing now

12:26

we didn't realize that there was

12:28

so many female troops of Morris

12:30

dancers and ironically because this all

12:32

came from Jane and I say

12:34

that Morris dancing just gives

12:37

us the ick it's just a personal thing I find it

12:39

a bit creepy it's very funny on

12:41

the WhatsApp group today you just said you

12:43

shouldn't hop in adult life there is

12:47

a lot of hopping involved

12:49

so much hopping and one-legged

12:51

behavior so it just makes

12:54

us feel a bit queasy which turns out to

12:56

be something that is shared by quite a lot

12:58

of people too but the irony is that loads

13:00

and loads of people have sent us more pictures

13:03

in order to get across the

13:08

point that the lady Morris dancer

13:10

is very much a thing too

13:13

so this one comes in from a re

13:15

who says if you want to see men

13:17

and female Morris dancers in all of their

13:19

splendor this is where it's at the potty

13:21

festival in Sheringham in North Norfolk I've

13:23

heard of some people who are scared of

13:25

clowns I feel the same way about Morris

13:28

dancers I find them a bit sinister well

13:30

that comes across as hey nonny no and

13:32

benign I'm not so sure friend of ours

13:35

was a part-time female Morris dancer they would regularly

13:37

turn up at rural pubs and annoy the hell

13:39

out of customers who just wanted

13:41

a quiet drink she

13:46

said most of it was good fun they didn't

13:48

seem to be quite a bit of competitive stick

13:50

bashing and the women were the worst if you

13:52

had to knock with one of the dancers it

13:54

provided the perfect opportunity to lay into them under

13:56

the guise that being part of the routine over

13:58

the last few years so traditional Morris

14:00

Dancers seem to have been overshadowed by

14:02

a new crowd who got off-piste in

14:04

the clothing department. The look is more

14:07

steampunk, lots of purple taffeta and lace

14:09

the odd baskets crept in, top hats

14:11

with feathers and mirrored sunglasses, you know

14:13

the sort of thing, or maybe you

14:15

don't. It's a look which doesn't really

14:17

travel well and it's still sinister. And

14:20

somebody showed us a photograph, polyaccent photograph

14:22

of the thing that did it for

14:24

her, which is as part

14:26

of the Morris Dancing troupe, there's a guy

14:28

who put a horse's head on. Yeah, that's

14:31

where I check out. And in

14:33

a park near the centre of

14:35

Winchester. Oh, near the centre of

14:37

Winchester. Hello Winchester. Last

14:39

September they passed the troupe or is it

14:41

a group or is it a gang or

14:43

is it a herd, says Polly. Not sure

14:46

of the appropriate noun. One

14:48

of whom was dressed as I believe tradition dictates

14:50

in a horse's head and proceeded to greet the

14:52

children. I've been unable to shake the experience since.

14:54

I see photo below which I made my five

14:57

year old take so I was too busy hiding

14:59

behind a bush. Polly,

15:03

can we're with you on that? But lots of

15:05

people like. So you're really enjoying the female Morris

15:07

Dancing troupe. No, no, we've got more on this but do

15:09

you like clowns because I don't know. No, I

15:11

don't like clowns. Who likes clowns?

15:14

Oh, somebody

15:16

somewhere must like them. I don't really

15:18

like magicians either. Oh, don't

15:21

mind. I find it very hard to

15:23

be caught up in what you know is a ploy.

15:25

A ploy for money. Yes,

15:28

that's why you're going to vote Conservative

15:30

at the next election. Does

15:34

that work? Have

15:36

I? Sorry. What's

15:39

just happened? What's just happened? Scrub

15:42

that, Eve. I don't know what I'm talking about. OK,

15:46

I like this from Mary's wind

15:48

up the battery. I

15:51

had an early start. Scrub

15:53

all that. This is Mary, the Morris

15:55

dancer. Yes. So I think that indicates

15:58

I could be wrong. I'm

16:00

no detective, but I think that means she's a Morris dancer.

16:02

What do you think? I think so. Mary

16:05

says, and I love this, she says, My

16:08

eldest child is actually called Morris, although

16:10

this is sheer coincidence, as Morris dancing only

16:12

became part of my life in the last

16:14

year. When you think it only became part

16:16

of your life. I think you knew all

16:18

along that it was your destiny. Anyway,

16:21

Mary says she's part of a border

16:23

Morris troupe, which uses sticks and whooping.

16:26

Oh, well, that's all right then, rather than the bells

16:28

and hankies. That is Cotswold Morris.

16:30

Did you know the difference? No. Border

16:33

versus Cotswold. Mary's part of a

16:35

troupe that dress mainly in black

16:37

tatters, a sort of shaggy

16:40

shirt with black top hats. We

16:42

practice every Thursday during the darker months and then

16:44

spend the summer attending festivals all over the place.

16:48

I'm the youngest of the group at the age of 37. The oldest is 70 plus.

16:52

And I love the fact that I get to spend time with

16:54

people of all ages and all walks of life. We

16:57

practice and perform with a full band, sometimes as

16:59

many as 15 players, made

17:01

up of fiddles, melodiums, whistles, guitars, drums and

17:03

a French horn. There's no oboe in the

17:06

band at present, so feel free to dust

17:08

off your instrument and come along for you.

17:13

Yeah, okay. I

17:15

love it, says Mary, although my partner's slightly less

17:17

keen as he's on child duty when I'm

17:20

prancing around at whichever local festival

17:22

we're performing at, especially as my

17:24

youngest is terrified of me when I'm dressed

17:26

in my Morris dancing get-up. She

17:29

says as well, and I like this, but oh no, that's

17:31

from another email, so I'll do that in a minute.

17:33

Hang on a sec. I am going absolutely mad today.

17:36

So cut that out as well. Especially

17:40

as my youngest is terrified of me when

17:42

I'm dressed in my Morris dancing get-up. Yes,

17:44

well, I'm sorry, but that says completely kind

17:46

of dust, Mary. We wish you

17:49

the very best in your Morris dancing career. And by

17:51

the way, what a wonderful thing. I wish I'd thought

17:53

of this when I was both married and had some

17:55

more children. Why in God's name didn't I take up

17:57

my first dancing men? I've

18:02

regretted not having a deep and sincere love

18:05

of test cricket. You could just

18:07

disappear for five days. Oh,

18:09

it's at Lord's. So I'll see

18:11

you a week on Thursday. Yeah,

18:14

Mr. Trick there. Now

18:17

look, this is some very lovely Arabella who's having a

18:19

competition with her mother to see who can get the

18:21

most emails read out. Is this about Morris dancing? No,

18:23

it's not. Did you want to carry on with them?

18:25

I just want to do just one more. Hang

18:28

on in there Arabella. This is a slightly

18:30

rocky trip. We're on everybody. But

18:33

no way, we'll get to harvest soon. Just wait till I've

18:35

got my freedom pass. Then we really will be going all

18:37

over the place. This is

18:39

from Sarah who says, my mum was a

18:41

Morris dancer when I was growing up. She

18:43

was in an all female side called the

18:45

Black Annies, named after a

18:48

famous Leicester witch. Ooh. Yes,

18:51

if only it was near Halloween, we could make more

18:53

of this. Who I believe were quite an anomaly when

18:55

they started being all women, but they are still going.

18:57

I would also encourage you

19:00

to look up Boss Morris, an

19:02

all female and trendy Morris side,

19:04

who've performed with wet leg. Well,

19:06

that is cool. They were with the wet leg at

19:08

the Brit Awards. For Border Morris,

19:11

I would look up Beltane Border Morris,

19:13

who I always found really exciting

19:15

to watch. However, you're right that many

19:17

sides are men only, and there are

19:20

definitely still patriarchal elements who resist change.

19:22

But that's particularly short sighted, as many

19:24

Morris sides are dying off as their

19:27

members age and retire. There

19:29

are other problematic elements within Border, such

19:31

as some traditions of disguise. But

19:34

nowadays, that just looks like backface.

19:36

Again, many sides are thankfully moving

19:38

away from this and modernizing a bit

19:40

with the times. And Sarah

19:42

as a PS, I just booked a solo ticket

19:44

for your show in Sheffield. Looking forward to seeing

19:46

you live. Sarah, well, brilliant. Thank you so much

19:49

for doing that. That's the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival,

19:51

May the 31st. You can come with a friend.

19:53

You can come on your tod. We

19:56

don't mind, but we'll be there at the Crucible

19:58

Theatre, 7.30 on the 31st. May.

20:00

7.15 on

20:03

the 31st of May. Lovely. We'll have a

20:05

big name guest and then in the second

20:07

half we always see questions from the audience

20:09

which is just fantastic. And I would say

20:11

really have no fear about

20:13

coming on your own because there's always a

20:15

sense of a sharer's table. Have

20:17

you ever been to a lady's

20:20

spa at the weekend? Oh yes. A

20:22

sharer's table. Is that where

20:24

you congregate if you've come on

20:26

your own? Yeah. And I think

20:28

sometimes you look across a crowded

20:30

dining room filled with people who

20:33

are eating substantial amounts of salad

20:35

bar while dressed in a white

20:37

fluffy room. And the people

20:39

who've come with a mate or

20:41

whatever are looking enviously as the cackle of

20:43

laughter rises from the sharer's table. Also we

20:45

understand as well that many of you don't

20:48

want to tell anyone that you're listening to

20:50

our fair. It can be embarrassing. That's right.

20:52

We get it. So look back to Arabella

20:54

who's in this competition with her mum

20:56

and she is hoping she can secure

20:58

her first win. So she has done

21:00

that. She is coming on

21:03

her own and basically says

21:05

this is a long-winded email to ask

21:07

you if you'd both like to join

21:10

me for a G&T. Well we will

21:12

definitely be available for mingling afterwards. So

21:14

hopefully we will meet in person. And

21:17

thank you as well for everything in

21:19

your email. Actually your story of your

21:22

progress through an undergraduate

21:25

degree and then completing

21:27

a master's afterwards with

21:30

reference to the Jeff Norcott interview which was

21:32

a while back about whether or not it was worth going to

21:34

university. And Arabella is the proud owner of over

21:37

£100,000 in student debt now. How much? £100,000. The

21:45

whole experience has left me feeling quite

21:47

disappointed and really quite concerned that this

21:49

amount of teaching is seen as acceptable

21:51

for a healthcare profession. She is hoping

21:53

to head into or already is in

21:56

occupational therapy. I mean it just seems

21:58

absolutely Extraordinary to be saddled. Mantis,

22:00

student debt and I know the

22:03

occupational therapy and all assays as

22:05

therapy. Same piece of professions are

22:07

in desperate need. Of people at

22:09

moments so cause it really doesn't see

22:11

something that eat a d at such

22:13

see alleviate that that's because he was

22:15

once take on is a vast amounts

22:17

of of debt and I wouldn't call

22:19

it something different outlay most in those

22:22

the money saving go to the with

22:24

saying look is it just as a

22:26

Qantas extra tax you're paying but it's

22:28

still it's frightening when you i sit

22:30

down says yes that's true and me

22:32

in person and as James said ooh

22:34

be lovely to see you at Crisp

22:36

will be the one Waistcoats will be

22:38

passing. The top of a

22:40

to the will be dusting of July

22:42

weekend. I'm actually says it was as

22:45

I went to school trip to the

22:47

Crucible to see a play in the

22:49

nineteen eighties of able to find out

22:51

what it was. I think it might

22:54

have been an abrupt play in probably

22:56

would have the and some This is

22:58

a phenomenon. It's got such a good

23:01

reputation the theater some and it will

23:03

have the free to do much to

23:05

enhance its reputation by appearance or will

23:08

we will smith everyone diversifies. Yeah as

23:10

to another I, whether anyone is interested in

23:12

emailing this podcast about isn't going to get

23:14

into the guess to the Middle East she

23:16

does. It seems to think that people want

23:18

a sort of less is more version of

23:20

author as we both knew. see people want

23:22

more and more not less. After a while

23:25

I just I look at her except for.

23:28

Oh, you got bring was I know

23:30

I have, but I just wonder whether

23:32

anyone shares my physics the list truss

23:34

mind boggling lack of self aware does.

23:36

It actually makes me feel embarrassed on

23:38

behalf of the sisterhood and I'm wondering

23:40

whether are being harder on her than

23:42

I would be on a male politicians

23:44

who cooked up so magnificently of is

23:46

is it because she's female that I'm

23:48

just so mortified by I don't know

23:51

No, I don't know either. a nice,

23:53

sometimes dead I mean everyone has their

23:55

own opinion in what they're saying by

23:57

don't see Her. Through the prism of gender

23:59

to. No I don't know I

24:01

want little doing it but I have

24:03

wished I'd Lots of male politicians have

24:05

no self awareness a tool bumps along

24:08

was on her partner in crime with

24:10

similar either. He really is says the

24:12

same things about this extraordinary claim this

24:14

been I blame that bases and have

24:16

on organizations that seems has served the

24:18

country well in previous administration somehow suddenly

24:20

brought them down here and abroad say

24:22

when else sound authorities them down she's

24:24

just a my mind because she's got

24:26

this book that come on athletes as

24:28

eating lots and lots. Of into these

24:30

not tried very hard to listen to point

24:33

of use them for were saying earlier that

24:35

I see there is something akin to when

24:37

you tell a child dolphins are they're lying

24:39

and they receive say you know I did

24:42

it myself sense either with Roberts home for

24:44

it was a man does follow through I

24:46

didn't do it I wasn't that and do

24:48

not think know and it's a similar kind

24:50

of Tennessee and it is embarrassing to watch.

24:53

Like. He says I'm from the Wirral, I'm

24:55

with Jane on the Central Park. Argument is

24:57

based on Vulcan. Had thought that's what everyone

25:00

living within a five mile radius of Birkenhead

25:02

told Mrs I was a child and I'm

25:04

not going to google it. I'm going to

25:06

believe it's true. Thank you Becky! Well, it's

25:08

that kind of his. I.

25:11

Wanted say small minded but I won't

25:13

is that kind of loyalty for smoke

25:15

me to see that makes the. Young

25:19

Fool diaspora as Pumpkins.

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26:46

Muslim folks is an entrepreneur, cilantro pissed

26:48

and was for a while the youngest

26:50

female member of the House of Lords.

26:52

He is Baroness Lane Fox is. So

26:55

now we going to talk to her

26:57

about her attempt to walk to the

26:59

senators the three highest peaks in the

27:01

Uk in a moment something she's doing

27:03

to raise money for food charities and

27:06

which is remarkable because twenty years ago

27:08

she was in a car crash in

27:10

Morocco broke twenty six bones, was in

27:12

hospital for two years, survived a stroke

27:14

and has had forty seven operation. Since

27:16

then at Welcome to the Program Author

27:19

and I did hear you because you're

27:21

on the panel on a on the

27:23

been so own time for idea because

27:25

right through the Sunday Times and Unit

27:27

is a big bang and I did

27:30

hear you say and in a kind

27:32

of self deprecating way when all is

27:34

that was mentioned by Steak and Asthma

27:36

and they were talking to about you

27:39

walking challenge he said something like oh

27:41

you know get out the tiny was

27:43

in school Me and I did to

27:45

see well. actually you can kind

27:47

of go with the cello on

27:50

all the thoughts and neither is

27:52

so that's a lot to some

27:54

funds to a party decently not

27:56

want people to frame you in

27:59

that way hence sweep

28:01

it aside like that. I think that

28:03

I have survived the last

28:05

20 years by using denial to

28:07

extreme effect. And I'm sure

28:09

psychoanalysts would unpick that and say I can

28:12

probably be more something or other if I

28:14

had not done that, but it's worked for

28:16

me. So I've tried not to

28:19

put myself always in the category of disabled person,

28:21

person walks with two sticks, person that's in and

28:23

out of hospital. And I think it's

28:25

also because I feel as

28:27

though I did have this immense luck in my life. Not

28:30

everybody gets to start a.com success story

28:32

and make quite a lot of money

28:34

and all of the things that went

28:36

with that. Yes, then followed quickly by

28:38

something horrifying, but I don't, you

28:40

hold all those things true as a person and

28:42

I don't want to feel as though I'm coming

28:44

out here going feel sorry for me, something happened

28:46

to anyone. Sure, so in a sense, why do

28:48

something that then does draw attention to

28:50

the fact that it's 20 years since that happened to

28:53

you? Like Chris, my partner, who's like, what are

28:55

you doing? Why are you doing this? I want to have a

28:57

party on the top of a mountain. That might be true.

29:00

I'm doing it because it's still a thing. It

29:02

dominates a lot of my daily life. And just

29:05

even in 2022, I had a lot of problems

29:08

with my hips that then led to a bone infection

29:10

and to sepsis. I nearly lost my leg. It goes

29:12

on, right? And so that is part

29:14

of my life and it is part of who I am.

29:16

And at 20 years, I thought, how can I channel it

29:18

for me, not for everybody else, but for me into something

29:20

that felt positive. So something very scary, which

29:22

this is, and also trying to raise a lot

29:24

of money felt like those things. How

29:27

are you going to do it? Well,

29:29

I'm going to do it slowly. I'm going

29:31

to do it. I'm starting with Snowden on

29:34

Saturday. I've never been to Snowden. I

29:36

think the last time I went to the Brecon Beacons,

29:38

I was 11 when I went on those outward bound

29:40

holidays. And I remember seeing my teacher Mrs. Pondon, her

29:42

nighter. That was the most exciting thing that happened. Are

29:44

you over it now? Just, only

29:46

just Jane. Obviously lingered. Only

29:49

just. For lady. For lady. So

29:52

starting with Snowden, then we're going to Scuffle

29:54

Pike and then Snowden in September. I've

29:57

been training quite hard, doing lots more, kind

29:59

of stepping up. things than I would normally

30:01

do. The up bit I'm

30:03

not so worried about actually it's the down bit

30:05

because down is harder generally and a bit more

30:07

tricky with my balance and stuff. So

30:09

I don't know but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna

30:11

do it. And who's doing it with you? Some

30:13

friends and family and I have

30:17

subjected my poor close friends to quite a lot over the

30:19

last 20 years and I sent an email going I'm gonna

30:21

do this you don't have to come with me but 10

30:23

years ago I walked Haidian's Wall when it was the 10-year

30:25

anniversary. A lot of people came with me

30:28

and it was amazing and so a

30:30

lot showed up especially family so I'm really

30:32

lucky I'm about 30 people all here. So

30:34

you are doing it for all of those

30:36

reasons but really to raise money as well

30:38

for charities three of which you are patron

30:40

of. So do you want to just run

30:43

us quickly through the charities? I do that

30:45

all related to things that have made my

30:47

you know that have made my story I

30:49

guess different. You know if you have what

30:51

happened to me generally and you are poor

30:53

you die. Simple as that and that's quite

30:55

sobering and if not you're probably in a

30:57

wheelchair. And I think about all the points

30:59

in the chain where the resources that I

31:01

had changed the moment completely. So for example

31:04

you know I was in an incredible hostelry

31:06

John Ryan Cliff in Oxford that one of

31:08

the major trauma units in the country. They

31:11

put me back together I was in intensive care for

31:13

a long time I was there for a couple of

31:15

months but they couldn't quite cope with me even. My

31:17

mum and dad had to put an extra pair of

31:19

eyes in the room because there was so much happening

31:21

all the time. So the first charity I'm supporting called

31:24

Day One Trauma just become patron they work in major

31:26

trauma units in hospitals mainly in the north of England

31:28

right now and they give you an ambassador. So either

31:31

as the patient or as the family of

31:33

the patient it's somebody that will help you

31:35

and it's somebody that's been through a major

31:37

trauma themselves. So that can be somebody that

31:39

can do something like help you work the

31:41

benefit system if you're going to be in

31:43

hospital for ages through to you've got 47

31:45

different experts telling you you need to prioritize

31:47

your care in these ways how do you

31:49

work through that. So they're brilliant the first

31:51

one. Second one is called I Am The

31:53

Code they help girls in refugee council under

31:55

code I went to northern Kenya to see

31:57

them recently they're amazing obviously my life changed

32:00

because of digital technologies so I feel very

32:02

strongly about that. The third one is AbilityNet,

32:04

they are kind of the country's leading

32:06

technology company that helps disabled

32:08

people use technology which is

32:11

obviously transformational if you're stuck at home. You

32:13

know I can't carry shopping bags, I walk

32:15

with two sticks so I rely on heavily

32:17

on internet commerce services. And then

32:19

the final one I'm not patron of but my

32:22

aunt volunteers there and my kids are particularly keen

32:24

to walk to discharge, it's called Horatio's Garden, they

32:26

help people in spinal units go outside

32:28

by building beautiful gardens. Yes, I think

32:30

that was a bit long. Horatio's has

32:32

been on the project, I'm talking about

32:34

Horatio's Garden before and very

32:37

impactful the charity is too. So

32:40

you're doing the first one Snowden this weekend and then

32:42

the second one Scaffel Pike a couple of weekends after

32:44

that which is the anniversary accident and then Snowden I'm

32:46

giving myself a bit of a gap. And I've got

32:48

to that point now I've got this kind of low

32:50

level unease all the time and I keep thinking why

32:52

am I feeling a little bit anxious and I think

32:55

it's probably that. And then it might be,

32:57

it might be, yes it might be and also everyone

32:59

keeps saying to me oh well you know it is

33:01

much tougher than you think these clients might. This isn't

33:03

helpful at this point. Is there a point where we

33:05

Snowden the easiest? Apparently. Have you done it Jane? No

33:08

I've often thought about it. Actually listening to you

33:10

talk about it makes me wonder why I haven't

33:12

made an attempt. Exactly. I mean it is fantastic.

33:14

Not too late Jane. So no it's so beautiful

33:16

that far the world. Well yes, I'll send you

33:18

some pics. Yes I'd like it. I

33:20

think you could entertain the notion of joining

33:22

in the September one. Ben Nevis, yes. I

33:26

don't know what Ben Nevis has done to

33:28

deserve that but yes. Okay well think on

33:30

that. We wanted to talk

33:32

to you about lots of the other things

33:34

that are in your life at the moment.

33:36

If that's okay you are currently Chancellor of

33:38

the Open University, President of the British Chambers

33:40

of Commerce. You were a director on Twitter

33:43

before Elon Musk took it all for himself.

33:45

And as you've mentioned one of the UK's tech

33:47

pioneers. I feel like this is your life. I

33:49

feel like. Okay. I

33:53

think we should definitely tap into

33:56

your tech expertise. When you

33:58

first became digital champion back

34:01

in 2009. I

34:03

know that you wanted to make the point that

34:05

there was a lot of enthusiasm back

34:08

then from the government to better understand the

34:10

digital world, but much further down the line,

34:12

I know that you're also quite critical of

34:14

the people who are in government who don't

34:17

understand the digital world. So where

34:19

does that leave all of us? What should we

34:21

all be thinking? I mean, are we basically just

34:23

not being led by the right people with the

34:25

right expertise at the moment? I think it's slightly,

34:28

I'll frame it slightly differently.

34:30

So I think the first thing that infuriates me

34:32

is that we still have,

34:34

by some counts, 10 million adults

34:36

who are unable to form five

34:38

or six basic tasks online. Can

34:41

you imagine that right now in your

34:43

life? Most jobs, I think

34:45

it's 99% of jobs are only

34:47

advertised on the online, sorry, and yet there are

34:49

1 million unemployed people who have no digital skills.

34:52

I mean, that just strikes me as so down.

34:54

Can you identify a digital skill? What are we

34:56

talking about? I mean, being able to search

34:59

for something effectively, or being able to

35:02

fill in the form online, or be able to buy something

35:04

exactly, pay a bill, set up a direct date, whatever it

35:06

might be. I mean, all these people probably don't have bank

35:09

accounts, but I just feel as

35:11

though it's so short-sighted the way that politicians frame

35:13

digital technology. It's always about the shiniest thing in

35:15

the room. And you know, I've been that shiny

35:17

thing for a brief period of my life, but

35:19

that is not where we're going to get the

35:21

big rewards, in my opinion. We're going to get

35:23

the big rewards by making sure everybody has an

35:26

access to and a basic understanding of technology. So

35:28

that's a big issue and one that we could

35:30

so easily solve if somebody just prioritised it

35:32

and put attention on it. But

35:34

Do you think it's too late for someone to

35:36

bother to do that? That's because the shiny baubles

35:39

are now so shiny. No, I Don't actually. I

35:41

Think that if we're thinking about, you know, pick,

35:43

delete as appropriate, levelling up, or a country that

35:45

works for everyone, or taking back control, this is

35:47

just a policy plank that people need to work

35:49

into it. And There was a push around this

35:52

in 2009, kind of even under David Cameron, that's

35:54

faded away over the last decade. And I Really

35:56

hope if there's a change of government, whatever shade

35:58

of an election, they might. Imagine have

36:00

tech policy look the of. I mean

36:03

it's interesting to hear that because certainly

36:05

Jeremy Hunt has made it quite a

36:07

plank of all of his budget announcements.

36:09

His policies as Chancellor to really sell

36:12

this country as being a home for

36:14

digital entrepreneurship and and a real in

36:16

a healthy digital sector. The he still

36:18

believes that there's an underbelly and it

36:21

is completely ignores. Absolutely. And that's great,

36:23

but that's only a very small fraction

36:25

the pixelate. That's about building new businesses

36:27

and innovation. All the things that we

36:30

should be doing the under met. It's

36:32

the most fundamental building blocks of what

36:34

makes him more than Britain, one of

36:36

which is great to see such as

36:38

skills of don't have either an annual

36:41

role as the British Chamber of Commerce

36:43

was is it that you believe my

36:45

says your members really need see from

36:47

the next government. Would ever say that

36:50

as we just done some pieces of

36:52

work around the see to the economy

36:54

for exactly this purpose. So I'm a

36:56

Director General, Suborn talks about the playbook

36:59

for an incoming. Government and as five

37:01

thanks to this was the first is

37:03

the transition to net Zero. What the

37:05

businesses need to be able to effectively

37:07

decarbonise economy. The second one is around

37:09

people and skills think The thing that

37:11

surprised me most troubling around from Preston

37:14

doubles us as and revive Com Coventry.

37:16

Don't just us am used to tech

37:18

always having a skills shortage of people

37:20

book is as a list of amen

37:22

to that the learn understand that every

37:24

single sex or that I have met

37:26

or talking for manufacturing still fatalities to

37:29

anything in between. Has said we can't find

37:31

the people we need a train them retrain

37:33

them said this isn't an issue. that said

37:35

pieces around and go to prison. How to

37:37

get more inward investment and also how we

37:39

export. More. sense

37:47

if you could double that ten percent number

37:50

we all benefit massively to gdp says he's

37:52

piece of it's the next one is around

37:54

am digitization of the seen something so he

37:57

talked about and the final bid is about

37:59

had to strength of local place. So those

38:01

are kind of some of the issues that we're

38:03

always talking to the government about. I

38:05

know that the online safety bill would have taken

38:08

up some of your time in the House of

38:10

Lords as it made its way through that and

38:12

then back to the House of Commons. Do you

38:14

think it's robust enough? Is it the best piece

38:16

of legislation to protect particularly our

38:18

children? I was not closely

38:21

involved actually as though all hat tips to

38:23

people in the Lords that were particularly for

38:26

Clement Jones was incredibly influential

38:28

and worked very hard on this. Even kids in

38:30

the campaign they worked a lot on the

38:32

children's part. But I think your question is

38:34

right. It started as I understand it as

38:36

a piece of online safety legislation for children

38:38

and it escalated and grew and

38:40

not just because of amendments but because of just

38:43

the process and the time of the legislation passing

38:45

from idea to

38:47

pre-legislation scrutiny and post-legislative

38:49

scrutiny. So it has grown

38:52

and morphed and become so much bigger than just

38:54

about children and I can't answer that question. I

38:56

mean if you talked it off-com they'll say yes

38:58

you know it's going to be effective we've got

39:00

more tools we've got more people we can do more

39:02

but I think we have to also be realistic about

39:04

where we're at and where the power sits in some

39:06

of these parts. And the power

39:08

is such an interesting point isn't it?

39:11

The Children's Commissioner Rachel D'Souza told

39:13

us that she very much felt that her job

39:15

and her role would only be validated when she

39:17

saw a head honcho from a tech company jailed

39:20

for not doing the right thing on their own

39:22

platform. Which we found quite surprising actually but would

39:24

you agree with that? I think lots of people

39:26

have said that you know I'm not a big

39:28

fan of putting people in prison so I'm

39:31

not sure I'd pick that but I

39:33

think effective accountability and legislation and therefore

39:35

follow through with that is essential. And

39:37

I think that

39:40

we have a

39:42

hundred percent kind of set walks into

39:44

where we're at now with the technology

39:46

platforms power around us and we should

39:48

definitely be very worried about the impact

39:51

that we're having on our daily lives.

39:53

Hardest question last. How much

39:55

time do you allow your seven year old

39:57

boys to spend on screens and do they

40:00

have access to smart things? No.

40:02

And I was recently asked on a competing radio

40:05

program to say whether I thought, I know, whether

40:07

eight year olds should have smartphones. I thought, who

40:09

is arguing that this is a good idea? I

40:11

feel like some of us have taken leave of

40:13

our senses. No, they don't have access to a

40:15

smartphone or a device. They'll allow an hour at

40:17

the weekends to build stuff on a hotel app

40:19

they're obsessed with, which makes me laugh because I've

40:21

always wanted to do a hotel. And I don't

40:24

know when they'll have a smartphone. And I definitely

40:26

would not give a child of under 13 or

40:29

probably 14 a smartphone, full stop. That's

40:31

it. Can you answer this one in

40:33

about 10 seconds? Yeah. If you

40:35

had had access to smartphones and technology when

40:37

you were a teenager, do you think you

40:39

would have gone on to achieve what you've

40:41

achieved? That's a really interesting question. I

40:43

feel like everything in my life has been such luck.

40:46

I have absolutely no idea. I think I'd have got

40:48

sucked into the rabbit hole of watching Sid Shui's videos.

40:51

Okay. Good answer. That

40:53

was Martha Lane Fox. And

40:55

you can do a Google

40:57

search on her expedition to

41:00

raise money for those three charities. If

41:02

you just pop her name into any well-known search engine.

41:05

And we'll put it in the description to Eve.

41:07

You're an absolute star. Thank you very much indeed. So,

41:09

Eve, thank you for listening. And if you've ever punished

41:11

a male Morris Dancer's bells, we do want to hear

41:14

about it. There's no pictures. Just a few

41:16

at the very end. Well

41:24

done for getting to the end of another episode of

41:35

Off Air with Jane Garvey and Pee-Clover. Our

41:38

Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

41:40

and the podcast executive producer is

41:42

Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is

41:44

even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

41:46

It's Monday to Thursday three till five. You can

41:48

pop us on when you're fussing around the house

41:51

or heading out in the car on the school

41:53

run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining

41:55

us. And we hope you can join us again

41:57

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