0:00

Well. Hey everybody, this is Heidi St. John.

0:02

Welcome to the Off the Bench podcast you

0:04

guys! I'm really happy to have my friend

0:06

Pastor Fill Hopper back on the show with

0:09

me today. You guys are sending in some

0:11

phenomenal questions and Pastor fills here to help

0:13

me answer him. This is the Heidi St.

0:15

John podcast. Dig around! I think you're gonna

0:18

be encouraged. Or

0:27

it will. Welcome to the show Pastor vow I'm

0:29

slow jump right in because I feel a little

0:31

never get through all the questions. Welcome welcome. Recruiter

0:34

guy reminder take you for having me

0:36

and will get everything open. Just jump

0:39

right in July. We never did and

0:41

with our list. Now we don't let

0:43

landed this time as this happen a

0:45

couple weeks ago when you were here.

0:47

There's a story in the news and

0:50

a lot of people are asking me

0:52

know, what do I think about the

0:54

James River drama And for people who

0:56

aren't familiar with what happened, I can't

0:58

imagine because this as you rightly pointed

1:00

out few months ago, was in Usa

1:02

Today Newsweek magazines talking about it at

1:04

the secular news outlets. Love it. When

1:06

Christians are fighting, they'll love it. And

1:08

boy where James James River and Mark

1:11

Driscoll games and fodder last. We didn't They.

1:14

May. Be covered Usa Today So I

1:16

would say. Yeah. Apparently

1:18

mission accomplished. Yeah, yeah, Mission

1:20

accomplished. So for people who don't know

1:23

what happened i James River, it has

1:25

a a conference for man. I believe

1:27

it's called the Stronger Men Stronger Mandate.

1:29

Or something like that stronger Men's conference. And

1:32

the ins and in. it's a little

1:34

bit enough for those you know familiar

1:36

I it is a little on the

1:38

a outlandish, the height of we were

1:40

dug in, monster trucks and pyrotechnics in

1:42

yeah don't know wells But at some

1:44

point a gentleman and I think his

1:46

name is Alex gets onto the stage.

1:49

And. He drives up in a

1:51

motorcycle riding a motorcycle and he gets

1:53

off in a leather vast, takes the

1:56

stage and just rips his best off.

1:58

And that's the first. I'm in which.

2:01

I. Mean there's when I was watching I

2:03

was like oh they like it seems

2:05

super cringe worthy like yours. You know

2:07

it's a thousand men a a captive

2:09

audience who are pilate way it is

2:11

has. And or bad karma ears sir.

2:14

Back on. The timeline of and then

2:16

he proceeds to for lack of a

2:18

better word in Philly until the Be

2:20

sign think I'm not characterizing it correctly

2:23

But then he proceeded to use his.

2:25

Talent to climb the pole and lift

2:28

his body of sideways and in. the

2:30

guys amazing right? Really muscular and super

2:32

belt and at then he proceeds to

2:34

swallow a sword. And

2:37

then climb up the poll. right?

2:39

Shimmies up the pull with the sword down and. Out

2:41

here are middletown immediacy witnesses

2:44

would call. Raising S And

2:46

then he turned upside down and

2:48

let's himself slide to where I

2:50

thought oh my goodness this. Is

2:52

but. With wow word virgin Know

2:55

you beauty arms or new? really?

2:57

Don't. Count. The. Aperture.

2:59

Yeah, it's his death was off the chart.

3:02

something. I mean I've reserved as though so

3:04

that happens. Then the next day some people

3:06

think this was the very next thing, but

3:08

it wasn't It was the next day. Mark

3:10

Driscoll had been invited to James River Church

3:12

to speak at this men's conference He was

3:15

gonna. He was there to talk about the

3:17

spirit of wider. And.

3:19

He started out by saying there's a there's

3:22

a Jazz above him here and I and

3:24

the senior pastor James Little who I know.

3:27

Didn't like that very much. And

3:29

he he said get off the stage

3:31

or done right. And therein lies the

3:34

big controversy Last Sunday John Lindell used

3:36

to the entirety of his his message

3:38

really. To. Call Mark

3:40

Driscoll to repentance. And.

3:43

Including putting up you know, text messages

3:45

back and forth for the entire congregation

3:47

is the and he He says this

3:49

the spirit of Matthew eighteenth of this

3:52

is where we are now. This.

3:54

Is why is far as I know. You.

3:56

Know at. That. driscoll

3:58

hasn't said he sorry And

4:01

that's what lindall wants. So what

4:03

do you what's your I mean to me? This is a

4:05

big I think this is a loser No

4:07

matter how you look at it. Nobody

4:09

wins in this situation at least not yet

4:12

Yeah, yeah, it's not a great

4:14

look for the church at all for the gospel

4:17

for anybody So actually my

4:19

son who's 25 was at

4:21

this conference, Heidi So he

4:23

witnessed it all himself and so in

4:25

real time I'm getting texts

4:27

from my son dad. I need to talk to you

4:29

dad Ends

4:32

up sending me his own iPhone video of

4:34

this incident that he had taken himself So

4:38

was he just shocked did it shock him

4:41

he ever it was just stunning. Yeah, everybody was

4:43

just shocked speech speechless

4:49

Right, I mean he has a history has

4:51

a history here for sure Another

4:57

history the other is But

5:00

I've answered this question I don't know dozens

5:02

of times now since this conference pastor Phil.

5:04

What would you have done? What would you

5:06

start? so like

5:08

it's easy to Monday morning quarterback

5:10

everything but Let's

5:13

just kind of maybe unpack

5:16

this a little bit in terms of What

5:20

went down and Maybe

5:22

how could we handle it biblically next time

5:24

in a way that doesn't create so much

5:27

drama and controversy afterwards, right? Because in the

5:29

end everything should bring God glory. Yes, we

5:31

never want to bring him shame no shame

5:33

to his name, you know, so The

5:37

first question my son want to know and his friends that

5:39

were with him dad, what would you have done if you

5:41

had a speaker? that

5:44

suddenly kind of went off the script and

5:46

took you by surprise and so You

5:50

Know You start with Friday night. This

5:52

is a men's event and they're trying

5:54

to do some manly entertainment. Basically is

5:56

the idea. I Think that's the goal.

6:00

On. The. First thing,

6:02

I take the shirt off. Over a thousand

6:04

men, so that's. That's. Definitely cringe

6:06

worthy trail Iran's oil which I

6:08

don't care how but you are

6:10

do put your sure I'm right

6:13

where finance guy word right is.

6:16

That. That. Might not have been

6:18

vetted quite well enough to my son

6:20

Persuade didn't feel it was like a

6:22

sensual saying. He really didn't feel like

6:24

other guys trying. We uphold the answer.

6:27

what is he doing He he has

6:29

an act in his actors like you

6:31

The world renown sword. Swallowers.

6:34

And. Then he shimmies up this poll

6:36

that apparently like three storeys high

6:38

with nothing masses Sir Thomas and

6:40

but his knees didn't use his

6:42

hands at all at any time

6:45

he flipped himself overcome sliding down

6:47

the Paul stops about this short

6:49

of the floor. You. Know

6:51

what's the source sort of dial ah

6:53

said ah so ah in in in

6:55

my such cases I'd wear this was

6:58

in this way since you on sexual

7:00

kind of fate was just a little

7:02

crazy little weird. Or. Awkward.

7:05

Apparently the guy does have a past as

7:07

a stripper and all this stuff, so one

7:09

can say okay, they didn't vet the Sky

7:11

well enough for. You're.

7:14

Stretching a little too much, reaching

7:16

a little to lead our him

7:18

as my husband says specially. Recently

7:21

and that means a salve. What they saw

7:23

the first part of that the pharmacy was

7:25

like oh hey, I'm out it's it's sluts

7:27

to know I I've seen it. As this

7:29

point is, this is my the I'm posting

7:31

on the lead bass, drums on with Illness

7:33

I'm I'm calling under my chair to slice.

7:37

I didn't says areas like that

7:39

guy city. Whose idea was

7:42

his ssssss yeah when we the

7:44

brief were talking about this but

7:46

said the real issue came the

7:48

next day. Actually ah the next day

7:50

when Mark Driscoll kind of headline

7:52

the event. He. Gets actually all

7:54

the way done with his talk. And

7:57

then. He. just got one last thing base

8:00

I need to say I've been up since one o'clock

8:02

in the morning. I'm basically so vexed and I'm paraphrasing

8:04

is not word for word I'm so vexed By

8:07

the spirit of the Jezebel spirit of Jezebel

8:09

is already here Last

8:12

night there was a poll on this

8:14

platform implication

8:16

basically there was some sensual pole

8:18

dance performed or something which in

8:21

my son's mind that it wasn't really that sensual

8:23

is just weird and And

8:27

he really in low-key starts taking the

8:29

task the hosts of the event Which

8:32

is James River John Lindell

8:34

the lead pastor and

8:38

then you hear John Lindell yell

8:41

from the floor from somewhere You

8:45

know basically mark no no no

8:47

you're done mark you're done and you

8:51

see Mark say I

8:53

received that Johnny turned around walks off the

8:55

stage at which time John Lindell jumps on

8:57

the platform The place

8:59

at this point is about to lose the

9:02

room all eight ten thousand men Whatever you

9:04

hear some guys shouting John Lindell get

9:06

off the stage Let Driscoll

9:08

talk you know invited

9:11

People booing people get up leaving

9:16

Lindell's issue was Not

9:18

only are we friends and have been for 15

9:20

years, but we talked for 30 minutes this morning

9:22

if you were so vexed Why didn't you tell

9:24

me then right right his issue

9:26

was Matthew 18? If

9:28

you're so offended by what happened last night. Why would

9:30

you tell a room full of? 8,000

9:34

people and not tell me personally right so

9:36

here here's the reality what I would say about this

9:38

and people have asked Phil What would you do? If

9:43

I have a guest speaker, and I'm that

9:45

good of friends and apparently these two men

9:47

say they are they've known each other for

9:50

years And mark Driscoll has spoke at this

9:52

event many times and apparently they are personal

9:54

friends Probably

9:56

what's going to happen is I personally it's easy

9:59

to look back now on Monday morning quarterback,

10:01

this thing, I would let him finish though. I

10:04

would let him finish what he wants to say, even

10:07

though I'm offended and I feel

10:09

like, man, you're dressing me down. This is my

10:11

event. How dare you? Why didn't you tell

10:13

me this ahead of time? I'm gonna let

10:15

him finish because we're friends. I'm gonna give him the

10:17

benefit of the doubt. But

10:19

before he leaves that platform, I'm gonna walk

10:21

up there and now

10:24

we're gonna handle this together in real

10:26

time. I'm gonna

10:28

look at him and say, Mark, you didn't tell me you

10:30

were gonna say that ahead of time. I

10:32

feel like you should have. We

10:35

talked for 30 minutes this morning, you didn't share any

10:37

of that. So let's talk about it right now. And

10:41

now we're gonna go forward without

10:43

shouting Mark down and basically blowing

10:46

him up and telling him to leave

10:48

the platform. That's created the drama. That's

10:50

created the controversy. Had

10:52

he just let him finish what he wanted to say,

10:54

then walk up and now deal with it. This is

10:56

your event. You have a right now to take

10:59

the platform back. And address it.

11:01

Share why you did the event. Give

11:04

the backstory if you need to. Talk

11:07

about Matthew 18. Mark, you have a right

11:09

to your opinion. Thank you for sharing that with these

11:11

men. But

11:13

you should have shared that with me first. And

11:15

here's why I disagree. The spirit of Jezebel is

11:17

not in the room. What happens

11:20

then, guys? You still have an issue, but

11:24

you don't have a front page issue of the

11:27

USA Today. You don't have a

11:29

controversy that now people are

11:31

still talking about two weeks later. And

11:35

so that's

11:37

what I would have done had I been John Lindell.

11:39

I understand why he was offended. Mark Driscoll wouldn't tell

11:41

him ahead of time about it. I

11:43

understand where he's coming from there. I also understand

11:46

why Mark Driscoll would

11:48

call out something he certainly perceives

11:50

as bringing

11:52

the world's sensuality into the church at a time

11:54

when men need to be focused more than ever

11:56

on things above, not on the things of the

11:59

world you're at. men's conference or

12:01

so many distractions already. You

12:04

know, I understand why Driscoll might

12:06

have felt like this needs to be called out.

12:09

I also understand why John Wendell felt like he went

12:12

about it the wrong way. Another

12:14

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and data rates made for Bank of America and any

12:43

member of FDIC. Yeah. Yeah,

12:45

I agree with you. That was my assessment to

12:47

you. I just think nobody won in that situation.

12:51

The church got another black eye, which we frankly

12:53

can't afford to take very many more of these

12:55

in the culture right now. But

12:57

I also, in kind of looking,

12:59

I tended to agree

13:03

with Driscoll in that this

13:05

is inappropriate, right? I mean,

13:07

it's just the optics alone.

13:09

We're pretty lame, but

13:12

truly he'd had the whole

13:14

night before to say

13:16

something to John and then

13:18

sounded like the whole morning and they talked for

13:21

30 minutes. And that is where

13:23

I just was like, oh brother, you know,

13:26

because yeah, and then the shouting and the whole thing.

13:28

I mean, just felt like and maybe we can make

13:30

excuses for these guys. Like I'm sure that John Lindell

13:32

was like, what the heck, you know, and couldn't wait

13:34

to get the guy off the platform. But

13:37

you're right. He may or may not have

13:39

known. Obviously, this guy was not vetted well

13:41

enough by whoever's planning this

13:43

event a year or more out,

13:45

you know, but so

13:48

one can understand why somebody

13:51

might have called this out, whether

13:53

or not it's the spirit of Jezebel at a minimum.

13:55

Right. It was cringe worthy. It

13:57

was weird. It was weird. Arguit

14:00

it was worldly and weird, you know,

14:02

yeah Well, even just

14:04

the colors the red I mean the whole

14:07

thing I was just like wow What is

14:09

happening and we are under attack in this

14:11

country right now? The

14:13

spiritual warfare is just extraordinary and to me

14:15

they just missed the mark completely like I

14:17

don't know what you even say Look, wow eight

14:20

eight or ten thousand men gathered in one place.

14:22

I don't know that men I Don't

14:25

know that men want that or even need

14:27

that. I don't think that's why men go

14:29

to events like this Honestly, we've seen it

14:31

all we don't need to be

14:33

entertained. We're really hard to impress in this day and

14:35

age So

14:37

I Again, I

14:39

don't want to I don't want a Monday

14:41

morning too much an event that wasn't mine.

14:43

Yeah, but I would just suggest It

14:47

wasn't vetted well enough and in

14:49

the end why do men come to these kinds of events?

14:52

Not they're not gonna be there They're not gonna

14:54

be impressed by a guy that takes

14:56

a shirt off and shimmies up a pole no matter how

14:58

awesome it might be no That's

15:01

I on this we definitely can't agree

15:03

and I think the majority of the

15:05

people that were there seem to be

15:07

saying The same thing at the

15:09

end of the day, you know, what's

15:11

your counsel? There's so many people now that are

15:13

talking about this that have heard about it I

15:15

have been messaged, you know lots and lots of

15:18

times here at the show and also on my

15:20

personal social media And I have actually refrained from

15:22

commenting. I haven't said anything. I haven't

15:24

said anything on my social media pages Obviously, it's

15:26

a couple weeks now and you and I are

15:28

just talking about it. I think there's

15:30

a really great We have we run a pretty

15:32

grave risk when we try to get

15:34

out ahead of the story And just be the

15:36

first person to report it, you know, this

15:39

salacious story What should the response of God's

15:41

people be when they hear something like this?

15:43

It's Ephesians 4 3 says endeavoring to

15:45

keep the unity of the Spirit and

15:48

the bond of peace Mmm, it's good.

15:50

So it's a classic play

15:52

the devil will run is divide the body

15:54

of Christ whatever it takes in this case

15:57

We're really really easy prey. It seems like

15:59

we fall prey over and over

16:01

again to Satan's same play. Yeah. And

16:03

Christian leaders have a way of stepping

16:05

in the middle of it too. So

16:07

yeah. Uh, you know, endeavoring to

16:09

keep the unity of spirit and the bond

16:12

of peace. Look, there was fault on all

16:14

sides. That's how we got here. I think

16:16

Driscoll should have talked to John Lindell first.

16:19

If he was so vexed that he felt he needed

16:21

to say something. I think

16:23

that John Lindell's team probably didn't do a good enough

16:25

job betting this guy in the first

16:27

place. Yeah. Well, they're not hard to

16:30

bet either. I mean, honestly, I searched

16:32

his name. It's not pretty. So

16:34

I think that as a lead pastor,

16:36

it's my event. Um,

16:39

you're supposedly that good of friends.

16:41

Like Lindell actually, I think could

16:44

have, um, not

16:47

made it as controversial and divisive

16:49

if he just would have let

16:52

his friend finish and

16:54

then walk 8,000 men through

16:56

the process of Matthew 18 right

16:58

there. So good. Hey, I wish we could

17:00

have talked about this privately, but since we

17:03

can't now, let's talk about it publicly. That's

17:05

right. This is why we had this guy

17:07

here. We didn't know he was going

17:09

to do XYZ. Hey, maybe

17:11

it was a bad idea. You know, maybe I,

17:14

but then you don't have a front page story.

17:16

You don't have people talking two weeks later. They

17:19

talk about it for two days. Yeah, that's right.

17:21

But they don't talk about it for two weeks. Yeah.

17:24

You know, yeah, no, absolutely true.

17:26

We have an opportunity or they

17:28

did to model something and actually make

17:31

a bad situation into a

17:33

teaching scenario. Yeah. And according to my

17:35

son, he did, he brought him back

17:37

out on the stage and

17:39

they walked through this Matthew 18 conversation together.

17:42

But by then it's too late. By

17:45

then you've got, you've got the

17:47

controversy that's already begun and I

17:50

think he tried to

17:52

recover it, but it was

17:54

just too late then. That's why two weeks later

17:56

people are still asking about it. I Still,

17:58

I don't understand. A big.

18:01

To damning a he is. The whole Sunday

18:03

service was hijacked by this thing at a

18:05

search and. Never really felt like as a

18:07

big enough deal national attention, and I'm

18:09

not done talking about it, I still

18:11

need to say more about. Yeah hundred

18:13

percent. Yep and that got laid back

18:15

in the news images that right back

18:17

just right back in the news Man

18:19

you guys we the be more more

18:22

discerning as as guys. People that for

18:24

city to city wise is a serpent harmless

18:26

as a dog. We have to be wise.

18:28

Id. The

18:31

Devil will leverage anything he team.

18:34

So is this really is tried to Sue

18:36

tried to see farther out there. Never if

18:38

I do this or we do this what

18:41

could have for every for reaction there's an

18:43

equal Would. React. Yeah, cause

18:45

and effect. And just so I

18:47

think. Just him be

18:50

be wise Yeah says it

18:52

will. We need we need wisdom

18:54

now more than ever. we have another

18:56

anonymous list or in Alabama. To.

18:59

The new question is are nutrition Neighbor

19:01

claims she's got visions. From. The likes:

19:03

My neighbor who is nutrition told me that

19:05

she has started having visions. When God speaks

19:07

to her, her eyes begin to flutter rapidly

19:09

in the vision proceeds. Is this normal? And.

19:12

Is so why doesn't guys speak to

19:14

me this way? Or is this a

19:16

farm as mysticism? And should I proceed

19:18

in conversation around. The topic which

19:20

would proceed with caution. Much

19:22

caution. There is no pattern

19:24

biblically anywhere in Scripture with

19:27

this would be normative at

19:29

all. When God speak so

19:31

I'm God speaks today through

19:33

his word, primarily his written

19:35

revelation. It's. Not a

19:37

god. Never can't bring a vision

19:39

or will never speak Three dream

19:41

was say of Hebrews a chapter

19:43

one verse one opens up very

19:45

very clearly. Got a very tough

19:47

times in various. Tub.

19:50

Places. Smoke in various

19:52

ways and times pass through the profits.

19:55

The says he has in these last

19:57

days spoken to us by his on.

20:00

So. What is the author tell you? See

20:02

others telling us the we have a complete.

20:04

Revelation. Now in the incarnation

20:06

of the Lord Jesus Christ oh in

20:09

times past he was one one or

20:11

because the people got did not have

20:14

a written revelation. God. Would

20:16

give him a words for a profit.

20:18

The prophet would say it eventually, perhaps

20:20

even write it. Sake of Moses who

20:23

gave us the Torah right? But

20:25

that was a partial revelation. So what

20:27

he's saying now with the with Jesus

20:29

now who's com and begin was the

20:31

word. The word was with God. The

20:33

word was God. John. John

20:35

One One and the word became flesh

20:38

and dwelt among us. John One Fourteen,

20:40

what he's saying is now.has spoken through

20:42

his son. We have the complete revelation

20:44

now of the word of God may

20:47

known to the manifestation of the Son

20:49

of God. So what does that mean

20:51

For us? It means it's not normal

20:53

today. The. God with speak to any

20:56

of us. Are through

20:58

personal vision, personal revelation that

21:00

we're getting. Downloaded

21:02

straight from God. I'm.

21:06

So I would say this person

21:08

is right and has some wisdom.

21:11

That. They would simply proceed with caution.

21:14

In. Conversation. With

21:16

this person, Anyone who. Claims.

21:18

To be getting personal revelation from

21:21

God and personal vision got is

21:23

giving them. They

21:26

just need to be was. What

21:29

do you? what does at? What do

21:31

you make of this sir Saying that

21:33

she's having visions and for eyes are

21:35

flattering rapidly? What do you? What do

21:38

you make of that You think you

21:40

know edgy? think hey, this is maybe

21:42

even demonic activities. In seeking any number

21:44

of it could be any number of

21:46

things are he is what we know

21:48

that the spirit of God will never

21:50

do anything contrary to the word of

21:52

God. Is where I

21:54

first John A Chapter four

21:56

Embers One says. That. We're

21:59

to test the speed. It whether they be

22:01

of God, how do you test the spirits?

22:03

You test the spirit through the filter of

22:05

the word of God. The written revelation must

22:07

be the final authority for everything we see

22:10

and everything we experience. Because the reality is

22:12

if we go on what we see, We.

22:15

Will always be deceived.

22:17

You. Must learn to go on what God has

22:19

said. And so on.

22:21

First time for one test the spirit Have

22:24

you do that through the word of God.

22:26

The spirit of God will never do anything

22:28

contrary to. The word

22:30

of God. These will always agree. We

22:32

also know says and first Timothy For

22:35

one, we live at a time of

22:37

deceiving spirits. Doctrine. Of

22:39

demons, even the tree and

22:41

Genesis three was deceived. Because.

22:44

She went on was she saw instead

22:47

of what the serpent said. What?

22:50

She saw was not a talking

22:52

snake, the word as naqqash in

22:54

the hebrew as a noun, it

22:56

means serpent, but as an adjective,

22:59

a mean shining. Was.

23:01

She saw was a shining godlike

23:03

creature. That's why she was deceived.

23:06

His mouth she said have none of those

23:08

You are and what you are You looked

23:11

like God but you are not. I

23:13

had. this conversation is over. Hey we live

23:15

at a time of such biblical an air

23:17

and sea. Even among modern

23:19

christians, they don't know what the bible

23:22

says, so they're so easily to. Was.

23:25

The same sex with us on his to inverse

23:27

mind the Day is coming The anti Christ. The.

23:29

One Parker was the son of Perdition.

23:31

Will the see the masses of humanity.

23:34

Three. Line, signs and wonders.

23:36

In other words, miracles. That.

23:39

Lie. Miracles.

23:41

That to see so I wouldn't know

23:43

what her neighbor he out there are

23:45

people who really suffer from mental illness.

23:49

In it is a genuine mental

23:51

illness, a clinical condition, That.

23:55

Is of have some form of psychosis.

23:58

At. the same time We wrestle

24:00

not against flesh and blood, but

24:02

against principalities, powers, rulers of darkness

24:05

of this age, spiritual wickedness and

24:07

heavenly places. The demonic is all

24:09

around us at all times. Jesus

24:12

said in John 4, David worshiped God and

24:14

us worshiped God in spirit and in truth.

24:17

If you're worshiping in the spirit, but

24:19

not deeply tied to truth, you will

24:22

be deceived by

24:24

any spirit. It

24:28

could be some

24:31

form of genuine mental illness, psychosis,

24:33

demonic,

24:36

deceiving spirit, deceiving this person.

24:40

But to say it's normal today that God

24:42

would speak or we would know the will

24:44

of God through a personal vision and my

24:46

eyes flutter, you

24:49

don't see that pattern in scripture anywhere.

24:52

And so because we don't have

24:54

a pattern in the word of God, we have to be

24:56

very, very skeptical whether it be

24:58

of the spirit of God. Yeah,

25:01

I love it. That's true. And

25:03

you're just encouraging our listener, which

25:05

is exactly what she needs

25:07

to go back to the word of God, be

25:09

grounded in the word so

25:11

that you can you can be discerning.

25:13

Right. I love that Spurgeon said that

25:16

that discernment is not knowing the difference

25:18

between right and wrong. It's knowing the

25:20

difference between right and almost right. And

25:22

there's so much of that in the

25:24

culture right now. You know, people masquerading

25:26

around as Christians, wolves and sheeps clothing.

25:28

And man, we got to be grounded

25:30

in the word. I love that. I

25:33

love it. Are we have another anonymous

25:35

listener this time in Missouri? And she

25:37

said, hey, Heidi, we go to an

25:39

evangelical charismatic church. They have

25:41

been moving toward incorporating prayer for healing

25:44

in services. Before prayer time on Sundays,

25:46

they quote James 5 14 to

25:48

15. In my study, I have

25:50

found this can also mean spiritual and not

25:52

just physical healing. I Do believe

25:54

in the power of prayer and that there is

25:56

omnipotent God that heals. However, based on my study

25:59

of scripture, I have. Difficulty reconciling church

26:01

teaching that God will heal everyone. They

26:03

often say God will heal you if

26:05

he hasn't healed yet. This doesn't seem

26:08

accurate. I believe God has the ability

26:10

and power to do all things with.

26:12

God doesn't promises you everyone is there.

26:14

More than one interpretation that I am

26:17

missing as. A greater Boston know your

26:19

listeners is spot on actually. Run

26:22

said you've ever surviving at one

26:24

eight percent? Yeah, James Five Sixty

26:26

team referred a Spiritual Healing assert.

26:28

We see what's in views also

26:30

physical healing. Ah, I

26:32

believe that if we prayed more for

26:34

healing, the church would see more physical

26:37

healing. I came from

26:39

a tradition. That. Didn't

26:41

believe. God still yield.

26:43

Nobody would ever sit it out loud. No

26:45

one of whatever said got a new miracles

26:47

anymore. But.

26:50

Why they may are believed to theologically that

26:52

him bleed practically. Meeting. Nobody prayed

26:54

for it. Nobody ever talked about it.

26:58

But. On the other hand, you have

27:00

this other extreme that is. It is

27:02

so the only real sign of the

27:05

move of God has to be a

27:07

physical angel manifestation, rise of a miracle,

27:10

And. That's just not true. Just

27:12

not true either. What

27:15

we know is miracles. The ability

27:17

to do miracles was the sign

27:19

of an apostle given to the

27:21

early Church. Second Crimean twelve members,

27:23

twelve. The apostle Paul was always

27:25

under the gun in Corinth, especially

27:27

by force Teachers that would always

27:29

question his credibility as an apostle.

27:32

The. Rain knew he was a Monday original twelve.

27:34

You had to have seen Jesus. Firstly, the

27:37

eyewitness all you weren't there will he was

27:39

there. He. Was an unnamed young fair

27:41

see in Jerusalem at the time of Christ

27:43

Ministry. I would suggest he

27:46

was there at his baptism with the other

27:48

fair see the came out to see John

27:50

the Baptist was going on. I was just

27:52

Paul was an eyewitness. That. Is always

27:54

having to send his authority as an

27:56

apostle. Just people knew. He. Wasn't

27:58

one the original twelve? So he appeals.

28:01

And second and twelve twelve he says

28:03

this surely the size of a possible

28:05

raw ammonia Which are these signs? wonders

28:07

mit deed. So today when somebody says

28:09

I have the gift of miracles. I.

28:12

Have the gift of healing. What you're saying is.

28:15

Your. An Apostle. Because.

28:17

Only God gave Apostles and only

28:20

Apostles the ability. In the early

28:22

days. To. Do works

28:24

of miracles, Signs.

28:26

And wonders. Here's

28:28

the reality is it was normal, even

28:31

in the first century. Ah,

28:33

it would have cease to be a wonder. If.

28:35

Everybody could do miracles. It

28:38

would have ceased to be a sign. So.

28:40

Here's the point why God still

28:42

does miracles. To. Say that

28:44

is normal and ought to be normal. Was.

28:47

It was normal. It was cease to be a

28:49

sign is cease to be a wonder. Which means

28:51

that wasn't even normal by the standards of the

28:54

Apostolic age. So here's

28:56

the reality. Here's was Biblical: God can

28:58

still do miracles, but when he does,

29:00

is not because anybody can say I

29:02

have the gift of healing. I have

29:04

the gift of miracles. That was a

29:06

gift given specifically to the real apostles

29:09

to set them apart from the many

29:11

counterfeit false apostles that had infiltrated the

29:13

early church. I. So

29:16

when she goes to church then

29:19

and they're teaching that God means

29:21

to kill everyone does We had

29:23

this is another just start as

29:25

as theological. Okay ideological back

29:27

at to get to this points how

29:29

doesn't answer her church leader says is

29:32

telling her that it is God's heart

29:34

that everyone would receive physical. Zero. First

29:36

of all, I'm the Apostle Paul

29:38

who as an apostle, had the

29:40

gift of healing. Could.

29:43

Not heal himself. Such

29:45

early chapters. Robbie says I have a

29:48

thorn in the flesh will not sure

29:50

what it was. We do know that

29:52

he was clinically blind. You. See

29:54

him signing his letters, the negotiations he

29:56

says see with what large letters I

29:58

have written normal. The he used an

30:01

amateur winces a type of secretary that

30:03

he would dictate his letter to and

30:05

then they would ride at line by

30:07

line for him. Why?

30:10

Because he was blind. but in this

30:12

case he's writing the glaciers. It's such

30:14

an important letters to see. I have

30:16

written this and signed it myself. He's

30:18

using a large letters. Why? He probably

30:20

had some form of glaucoma or something

30:22

like that. So he's going blind. Here's

30:25

a man that had been stoned. To.

30:27

Death be more than once which meant

30:29

own after bone in his body had

30:32

been broken. He probably live with chronic

30:34

pain. We don't know what the thorn

30:36

in the flesh was, Was it his

30:39

eyesight? Was it that he? yeah, he

30:41

doesn't remember says. But the point is

30:43

it was a physically debilitating condition that

30:45

he had. Here's. A man

30:47

could heal others, but three times he prayed God

30:50

would take it from him. And. Three

30:52

times God said no migrates is sufficient for

30:54

you for my strength dismay perfect in weakness.

30:56

Here's a man. The healed others, but now

30:59

we could he not heal himself? But he

31:01

couldn't heal one of the best friends. Are

31:04

young men. name's Timothy. That. Is

31:06

personally disabling the preparing. As the next

31:08

generation leader of the church is riding

31:11

his last letter to him, he knows

31:13

he's about to die in. be martyred.

31:15

Timothy has. A. Stomach issue as would

31:17

have been com in the ancient days and

31:19

even parts of the world. The day. Weather's

31:22

not clean. Drinking water. And.

31:25

What to tell him for his stomach

31:27

condition? Take. A little wine

31:29

timothy. A. To put an

31:31

r vernacular today, hate take some. Pepto

31:34

it helps or take some maalox.

31:37

Will. Make your stomach feel that

31:39

he was prescribing him what amounted

31:41

to the basic medical. Answer.

31:44

Solution of that day: There's no miracle

31:46

coming timothy take some medicine. That's what

31:48

you're saying. Though years,

31:50

the point is, gov want to

31:52

kill everybody. Yes, eventually. Someday our

31:55

salvation has three stages. Romans Chapter

31:57

Eight Put it this way: Justification,

31:59

Sanctification. And glorification.

32:02

Justification. Happens instantly. The

32:04

salvation of your spirit would

32:07

Jesus call being born again?

32:09

Sanctification happens gradually. That's the

32:11

salvation of your soul. Your.

32:13

Mind your will, your emotions. While

32:16

the spirit is reborn instantly, the

32:18

soul or the mind is not

32:20

reborn. That's why Romas talk to

32:22

says that must be renewed. right?

32:25

Now. The third. So it's that

32:27

science at you when you say sanctification

32:30

it or accidents every new like mice

32:32

right by your source occasion. What does

32:34

that? Was. Justification

32:37

Salvation The spirit, Sanctification Salvation

32:39

of the soul. Glorification.

32:42

Salvation of the body. These.

32:44

Bodies are under the curse of Adam's

32:47

sin currently. that's why once and sparser

32:49

one day us that they will all

32:51

give up. They will all girl do

32:54

matter how much we do to try

32:56

to delay it. Eventually these bodies will

32:58

detect. They're. Under the curse of

33:00

Adam's sin. And. I

33:03

want you to see God promises one

33:05

day these bodies will be healed. First

33:07

Clinton's fifteen. This body that will one day

33:09

go in the grave short of the rapture

33:11

if I'm not alive at the time. Will

33:14

go in the gray. but Paul said what goes

33:16

in is different than the body. Come on out.

33:18

What goes in as corruptible, what comes out is

33:21

incredible. The when the goes in his mortal, the

33:23

one comes out as immortal. The one that goes

33:25

in is perishable. The one comes out as imperishable.

33:27

Meaning we will have bodies or he'll that will

33:29

never grow old, get sick or die. But in

33:32

the meantime. There. Under the curse

33:34

of Adam's sin. And

33:36

not everyone is gonna get he'll decide

33:38

of heaven. And.

33:40

What we want to day in this church

33:42

sounds like this: This This church teaches that

33:44

God will do today. Which. Is

33:47

actually promise to do some day.

33:50

That. Promises delayed or not. Promises denied.

33:52

Will guide eventually. he'll every one that

33:54

knows him personally in the body. Yes,

33:56

he will, but he has not promise

33:59

that at all. The the side

34:01

of haven't met nowhere in scripture.

34:05

Now. And I think when we I mean

34:07

we've seen healing right? You remember, I've seen

34:09

my i've seen the Lord you an amazing

34:11

healing and ah the life of my nephew

34:13

Bobby using. Absolutely. Yeah.

34:17

The. Out that he doesn't do it but to

34:19

say that he always wants to. And here's what

34:21

happened Friday when he doesn't get too soft, it

34:23

always is. Where. They

34:25

didn't have enough face. If.

34:27

They would have had an affair Gov would

34:29

have. He'll do. I'm pretty sure Paul had

34:31

more faith in any one of us. Paul.

34:34

Had more faith a little Pg then

34:36

we will probably ever have any a

34:38

lifetime. Which. Sweat The

34:40

Bible says pleases God. We can only come

34:43

to prayer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

34:45

Sounds all didn't like say that not why eating

34:47

did he us not way to the didn't get

34:49

healed. Yeah. Yeah.

34:53

That's right, I'm going to throw went out yes the you didn't.

34:55

Have any and was seated

34:57

punt. So I was

34:59

in Fort Worth the Sas weekend

35:01

and I did a story time

35:03

with my friend Kirk Cameron. He

35:05

he and I both written bucks

35:07

for a company called Brave and

35:09

I posted about my social media.

35:12

And. I. I got into

35:14

a rather lengthy conversation with somebody who

35:16

said she started out saying it's great

35:18

to see Kirk Cameron act like a

35:21

burry and and distance himself from the

35:23

heretical dispensation wasn't that he has been

35:25

apart at right so then telling us

35:27

to just. You. Know. Mark

35:29

the dispensation a man who the distance

35:32

a celeste and I see he said

35:34

something and I want it tennis for

35:36

I said to him. At

35:38

this is not a salvation issue. right? You

35:40

shouldn't be. We should be dividing brothers and sisters

35:43

over distance. a similar them but I'm curious to

35:45

know so he believes that this the out this

35:47

to the doctor the Rapture is absolutely and biblical

35:49

started the Schofield bible the when I did even

35:52

actually continue the conversation up this because I had

35:54

a life and I could keep doing it. but

35:56

this is coming up over and over again. I'm

35:58

seeing it more now. Then. I'd seen

36:00

it in a while. I. This

36:02

way that we see this sort

36:04

of i'm. Resurgence.

36:07

Of a coming against dispensation as I'm in

36:09

the Doctrine of the Rapture and I think

36:11

look mostly coming from the a millennial his

36:14

point of view then just wondering. What's.

36:16

Your like what's your take for

36:18

it The men and women who

36:20

are being ask these questions and

36:22

is being seen as an this

36:25

person saw me as her radical

36:27

or as I'm dividing the church.

36:29

And I was like. Wow. I'm a talk

36:31

i talk to fill about this patreon

36:33

of of what what are you. Way.

36:36

I mean, I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to

36:38

know years people probably don't even know with these terms mean

36:40

heard. Him say. You're

36:43

here. See you as a really serious charge.

36:46

It offices in it is Yeah, you'd

36:48

be your visual Heidegger apostate. How dare

36:50

you. You. To introduce a

36:53

false docile. That. That

36:55

those or whether or not you're

36:57

all Millennial or pre Millennium Covenant

37:00

theologian or dispensation real these all

37:02

fall under will become we call

37:04

Orthodoxy. Neither. These are

37:06

heresy. Harris is false doctrine to

37:09

the extent that it will send

37:11

people to help. It's.

37:13

False doctrine to the extent that you've

37:15

changed the gospel. So.

37:17

There has to be in house,

37:20

the base or biologically speaking meaning.

37:23

As somebody once said, on essentials

37:25

of the face. A. We

37:27

have unity on non essentials. We.

37:30

Have to give each other liberty. A.

37:32

Guy Maddie fully committed biblically.

37:35

Ah, To a rapture.

37:38

Ah, Was some would call a

37:40

dispensation or view of scripture. But.

37:43

It would never enter my mind to

37:45

call and all millennial. A.

37:47

Believer A era heretic. Vs.

37:50

right up there just yeah so it's

37:52

not helpful i mean whoever this or citizen

37:54

there's a lot of i'm out there

37:56

is to is is completely not helpful while

37:59

the world is literally on fire and

38:01

people are going to hell, we're

38:03

turning our swords on each other. The

38:06

sword being the word of God. We're

38:08

going to turn our swords on each

38:10

other and fight each other and

38:12

bloody each other instead of using our

38:15

swords together to fight

38:17

our enemy, the real enemy. I'm

38:20

talking about Satan and the God

38:22

of this age. So therein is the problem. So

38:25

it lacks spiritual maturity. It

38:28

lacks the number one character

38:30

quality of spirituality. I'm talking

38:32

humility. So

38:35

as far as dispensationalism goes, look, I've

38:37

heard this so many times that well,

38:40

nobody even heard of this until C.I. Scofield

38:42

only goes back maybe 150. It's just

38:45

not just silly. Here's the

38:47

reality. We should not be turning

38:49

to theologians for

38:51

our New Testament interpretation or our doctrine.

38:54

Guess what? I don't care if it's

38:56

C.I. Scofield from the 20th

38:58

century or John Calvin from

39:00

the 16th century. In the end, what's

39:02

it say? Ephesians 2 and verse 20,

39:04

the church is built on the foundation

39:06

of the apostles and the prophets. Not

39:10

on the theologian from the 20th century,

39:12

not on a theologian from the 16th

39:15

century. We need to be studying. Acts

39:17

chapter two, the early church was studying

39:19

what? The apostle doctrine. So

39:22

it matters not to me some

39:24

theological system, whether

39:27

it's dispensationalism, whether

39:30

it's covenant theology, which

39:33

comes in on millennialism versus

39:35

pre millennialism. What matters not

39:37

is C.I. Scofield, what he

39:40

thought or John Calvin, what he thought. It's okay

39:42

to get a little commentary from this person or

39:44

that person. But in the end, what does the

39:46

Bible teach? And the

39:48

clear teaching of the Bible is

39:51

there's still one week left, seven years

39:54

of Daniel's prophecy out of

39:56

Daniel, Chapter nine related

39:59

to a. prophecy of

40:01

the Jewish people 490

40:04

years all together 483

40:07

of which have been fulfilled.

40:10

There's still seven years remaining listen

40:13

You can't explain that any other

40:15

way except to say there is

40:17

a seven-year tribulation on the way

40:19

and the rapture of the church Somewhere

40:23

as it relates to those seven years

40:26

Well, that's a great place to end it

40:28

today I so appreciate pastor Phil and his

40:30

willingness to come over here to my podcast

40:32

and just engage in these conversations the Conversations

40:34

are so important and we want to be

40:37

Sharpening ourselves as iron sharpens iron We

40:39

want to become men and women of

40:41

the word who know God's word and

40:43

can rightly to divide it and

40:45

I'm just so thankful We had a little bit

40:47

of technical issues and so I don't get to

40:49

say goodbye Properly to pastor Phil

40:52

we worked on it for 45 minutes and

40:54

finally we just gave up so He

40:57

says thank you everybody for listening and you

40:59

guys can find him at abundant life church

41:01

in Lee's Summit, Missouri So hope you

41:04

guys will check that out before I leave today I

41:07

have been you know, you guys know I'm out

41:09

on the road right now This is my speaking season

41:11

and I have been speaking to parents all

41:14

over the country who are noticing like I

41:16

am That the assault against

41:18

our children is ramping up in every

41:20

way We just saw the other day

41:22

that the cartoon network look it up

41:24

you guys the cartoon network now is

41:26

pushing Transgenderism as some sort of

41:29

way for your kids to be

41:31

like superheroes and be really different

41:33

and stand out This is the

41:35

cartoon network Nickelodeon is a

41:37

total mess Disney is a total mess

41:40

and I want to pitch something to you

41:42

guys I want to and what I've contacted

41:44

my friends over at vid angel because I

41:46

have been using vid angel For

41:48

many many years before they were a vid angel.

41:50

They were a company called clear play And

41:53

we use this with our kids when we were raising our

41:55

kids. We still have vid angel in our home I

41:58

reached out to them and I want to for you

42:00

guys the opportunity to try them out because

42:02

no mom has the time to sit down

42:04

and just try to filter every little thing

42:06

that comes out our kids on

42:09

the television and the truth is we still need

42:11

we still need to want to be able to

42:14

just say hey kids here's this show that

42:16

you can watch for 30 minutes while mom

42:18

gets a pot roast ready or whatever it

42:20

is and I love what Vid Angel is

42:22

doing you can skip offensive content in

42:25

streaming movies and in shows because

42:27

Vid Angel takes the guesswork out

42:30

of it for parents and I think

42:32

it's really important so if you guys

42:34

go to vidangel.com/Heidi they're gonna give you

42:36

a two-week free trial and

42:39

you should be writing this down

42:41

wherever you are vidangel.com/Heidi you guys

42:43

can take advantage of their

42:45

awesome streaming service that allows

42:47

you to filter out all the

42:49

garbage foul language nudity sexual content

42:51

violence profanity you can filter all

42:53

this stuff out with Vid Angel

42:55

which is going to help you

42:58

to guard the hearts and minds

43:00

of your children we have serious issues in

43:02

the culture right now and one of our

43:04

number one responsibilities is to protect the hearts

43:06

and minds of our children and their innocence

43:08

as they're growing up so check it out

43:11

vidangel.com/Heidi and let me know what you guys

43:13

think that's going to be a two-week free

43:15

trial for you don't miss the opportunity vidangel.com/Heidi

43:17

thank you guys so much for listening I'm

43:19

looking forward to seeing you guys out on

43:21

the road as you know I am headed

43:24

to Pigeon Forge for the Teach Them Diligently

43:26

conference and I can't wait to see you

43:28

guys there if you are a podcast listener

43:30

come on up and say hello to me

43:32

I'd love to meet podcast listeners out on

43:34

the road thank you guys for your prayers

43:36

for our family and for leaveness as well

43:39

as you do thank you for leaving reviews

43:41

for the show we've been reading them and

43:43

I appreciate it so much let us know

43:45

how you guys are how you guys are

43:47

doing and what kind of questions we can

43:49

answer for you if you've got questions you

43:52

know how to do it vidangel.com/mail

43:54

that's Monday have a great day

43:56

everybody thank you so much for

43:59

listening and I will see He has his

44:02

tongue

44:07

Generally metered, and the crater

44:11

tr