0:05

Hello, and welcome to another bonus episode

0:07

of Off the Record. My name's Jordan

0:09

Runtug. Thanks so much for listening.

0:12

Our last two episodes followed David

0:14

in the late seventies as he recorded Low

0:16

and Heroes, the Twin Pillars

0:19

of a so called Berlin trilogy. Sorry

0:21

Lodger fans, These records

0:24

contain the most innovative music Bowie ever

0:26

made and are an artistic triumph on almost

0:28

every level. This is surprising

0:31

because on paper, none of this

0:33

should have ever worked. Who gets

0:35

an R and B rhythm section to play lockstep,

0:37

crowd rock electro jams? Who

0:40

loads an entire side of what's obstensively

0:42

a pop album with wordless ambient

0:44

soundscapes. Who makes

0:46

an album mere steps from the Berlin Wall

0:49

one of the most notorious geopolitical hotspots

0:51

on the globe. Even David's

0:54

compositional process had changed, adopting

0:56

avant garde techniques gleaned from renegades

0:59

like iggy Pop, Brian Eno, William

1:01

Burrows, John Cage, and Steve

1:03

Reich. As is so often

1:06

the case, David fused this collection

1:08

of disparate ideas and influences into

1:10

something completely new, a sound

1:12

that's indefinable and sometimes indescribable.

1:16

What would you call say sound and vision

1:18

At best, it's a freakish multi hypha

1:21

native genres. If you forced

1:23

me to pick a single word, I just have

1:25

to go with awesome. In

1:27

addition the co producer Tony Visconti

1:30

and arrant Mad musical scientist Brian

1:32

Eno. Another crucial collaborator

1:34

on the German sessions was Du Meyer. U

1:37

was an engineer at Hansa Studios,

1:39

the famous Hall by the Wall that served

1:41

as David's creative home during his time

1:43

in Berlin. When he wasn't

1:46

working on Schlager or schlocky

1:48

German pop that ruled the airwaves at the time,

1:51

Ido helped David put the finishing touches

1:53

on low. David even enlicted

1:55

him to play the mournful cello part on Weeping

1:58

Wall, inspired by the sim of

2:00

division and oppression looming just outside

2:02

the studio windows. Du

2:05

also assisted on the album's David produced

2:07

for Iggy Pop, The Idiot and Lust for

2:09

Life. They're Working. Relationships

2:11

stretched into the eighties, when David would

2:14

return to Berlin to record the soundtrack to

2:16

the Berthold Brect play Ball and

2:18

Players legendary seven concert

2:20

at the Reichstag. They'd remained

2:23

friends until the end of David's life. Du

2:26

occasionally gives speaking engagements in conjunction

2:28

with Berlin Music Tours, the only

2:31

company that actually takes you inside the

2:33

famous hall by the Wall. I've

2:35

taken the trip myself and being there in

2:37

the room where Bowie actually belted out

2:39

heroes as truly all inspiring. Edu

2:43

was giving a talk as part of the release celebration

2:45

for Black Star and when

2:47

he heard the news about David's passing, I'm

2:51

so grateful you do agree to speak with me and

2:53

share his memories of being alongside

2:55

Bowie as it recorded the groundbreaking

2:57

music of Low. I

3:01

just start to tell

3:03

a little bit about my turn

3:06

to Berlin, and actually

3:09

I was I was born as somebody

3:12

who wanted uh not to

3:14

be a musician and not to be a

3:16

technical guide,

3:19

but to do both together. So

3:21

that what that means uh I

3:24

had to had sound engineering

3:27

course lecture at high

3:29

school in dessert Off. I did

3:31

this in dessert Off in UH

3:34

nineteen sixty

3:36

nine to nineteen seventy

3:38

two and made my final

3:41

final exam in nineteen seventy

3:43

two and started my

3:46

career as a recording engineer

3:49

at Cornege Studio in Cologne,

3:53

and from there I got the

3:55

jump in nineteen seventy

3:57

five to Berlin, and

4:01

very soon I came across

4:05

the Hansa studio

4:09

manager who whom

4:12

I asked for a job, and who

4:15

said where you can start

4:17

next Monday. Yeah,

4:20

that was in February

4:22

nine seventy six.

4:25

So I came across David

4:28

Poe. Yet this year nine

4:30

seventy six, in summer he had

4:32

to contact to Eca Fusa

4:35

from Tantiling Dream

4:38

uh in a while, and Edgar

4:41

recommended him Answer

4:43

Studio right to the

4:46

edge of the Berlin

4:49

Wall. We had the Berlin Wall

4:52

a few steps far from the

4:54

studio, and so he

4:56

came across Answer and looked at

4:59

it and said, wow, a

5:01

big hall. And he named it the Big

5:03

Hall by the wall, which

5:07

was originally the Masters

5:10

are the house for

5:12

the Masters of building houses.

5:15

And so we

5:17

had a new name for international

5:20

name for Answer

5:23

Studio too, um,

5:26

which was Studio Too, because we had one

5:28

studio at

5:30

another location in Berlin. Uh.

5:33

This was, by the way, the studio

5:36

where we started to

5:38

listen to David's tapes. Because

5:42

Answer Studio Too the

5:45

Big Hole was busy with our

5:48

Schlager producer Jack White in

5:51

Germany who produced all these uh

5:53

Lager people um from

5:57

morning till night, and

6:00

uh so the studio was busy

6:03

day and night, and yet

6:05

to move where to direct

6:09

him to the Nestor stars

6:11

of the studio One, which

6:13

was a very

6:15

good studio and meanwhile

6:18

very famous studio as well for for

6:21

the Berlin music

6:24

scene. So we started

6:26

as well with Iggy

6:29

Pop. He was present at the time

6:32

as well at the very beginning

6:34

of David's work in

6:36

Berlin and did

6:38

some of his finished

6:40

some of his plans to

6:43

uh bring out some music,

6:45

some new music the Idiot

6:48

for example, And so

6:50

we worked on on the

6:53

baking tracks of Low who

6:56

were produced in

6:58

in France before. And

7:01

David was a bit fed up with

7:03

the studio in France,

7:06

and so he came to

7:08

Berlin by recommendation

7:11

as well of Edgar Fursa, and

7:14

and I knew Edgar Fursa

7:16

as well a little bit before. So

7:18

when when we started at

7:21

Hansa One in Nestor,

7:23

starters came closer

7:25

to each other. First of all, I

7:28

was the one the guy who

7:31

directed Tony Visconti

7:34

to the specialties

7:36

of the studio and of the plug

7:38

ins and or or the equipment

7:42

which was available to

7:45

do something with the tapes, and they

7:48

got cassettes to rehearse

7:51

and to listen to it in

7:54

their hotel UH

7:57

rooms. And

7:59

so then I decided to

8:01

do some work on it. And later we had

8:04

another session in Uh

8:07

Answer too in the big Hall

8:09

by the war and so

8:12

we were worked on the album

8:15

Low, and

8:17

he added some

8:21

small vocal parts and

8:24

the saxophone part, and

8:27

we did two new tracks as well with

8:30

the equipment in the studio

8:33

where there was was a maremba phone

8:36

and David played

8:38

on this marimba phone in the Big

8:40

Hall and he said, okay,

8:43

can can we use it? I said, of course,

8:46

we can use everything here in the studio.

8:49

And then he started to

8:53

record one of the tracks of the

8:55

B side of the

8:57

album Low, which was the

9:00

Weeping Wall, and he

9:02

did a count on tape on one

9:04

track from one two hundred

9:07

and eighty and UH. Every

9:09

time he was overdubbing his

9:11

counting, he said, okay,

9:14

dropped me in at six,

9:17

dropped me in at ninety, dropped

9:21

me in anywhere you want. And

9:25

so he used this marima

9:27

phone to do UH certain

9:32

kind of musical carpet

9:35

on on on this tape,

9:39

which was the basis

9:41

for the Weeping Wall, and

9:44

then he added some other things

9:47

to it as well. As when

9:49

he find out found out

9:51

that I was trained

9:55

musician on my cello,

9:59

he had the idea, uh, and

10:01

Tony Visconti as well, to do

10:04

some overdubbing

10:06

with my shadow. So I brought my shadow

10:09

into the studio and so

10:11

we did eight tracks on

10:13

her art decade and

10:16

uh so UM got

10:19

some bow scratching

10:22

from my cello to

10:25

this track, which made it

10:27

much more alive than it was when

10:29

I listened to it. And

10:32

Tony Visconti wrote

10:35

a little score for me because

10:37

I'm a classical

10:40

musician and I'm

10:42

used to play music from

10:44

scores, and so it

10:47

worked. It worked, very funny.

10:56

What did you think of the music David was playing as

10:58

you were working on it? Was it apparent early

11:01

on that this wasn't just an ordinary pop album.

11:03

Well, it was something very

11:06

new for me because the

11:09

way we did recordings

11:11

at Ansa and as well in Cologne

11:13

before was like

11:16

somebody who was organizing this on

11:18

scores and writing scores

11:21

for the single musicians and

11:24

uh, they used

11:26

to play

11:28

from from this course, and

11:31

this was a sort of completely

11:33

different stuff that there were no scores

11:36

at all. There was no

11:38

written music except maybe

11:40

for some lyrics of David

11:43

and Um as well with Iggy Poppy.

11:45

He wrote very much lyrics

11:48

on a piece of paper. He had had a

11:50

role from the kitchen

11:53

and he sat in the side room

11:55

where he could look to the console

11:58

and watch Um

12:00

watch the movements

12:02

on the recording

12:05

session. And he had

12:07

a role and he wrote lyrics

12:10

and the role was

12:12

hanging just around

12:14

the whole room. The long

12:16

role of of of written

12:19

stuff of lyrics.

12:21

I don't know what for. Maybe it

12:24

has written some letters as well. Yeah,

12:29

funny, yah, quite funny.

12:33

What was David like in the studio

12:35

when he when he came into the studio did he know exactly

12:37

what he wanted and he sat down and did it or was

12:40

there a lot of experimentation at this time

12:42

and trying stuff out and then kind of making a

12:44

decision afterwards when he heard all the different

12:46

options. Well, and he was

12:48

present all the time, of course, and David

12:51

was was very keen on working

12:54

on his stuff. And no drugs,

12:57

no drugs at all. And yeah,

13:00

little box of beer beer bottles

13:03

was around. He was very

13:06

keen on working on his

13:09

tapes and so whatever

13:12

there was a discussion about

13:15

how to do something, David

13:21

had the last word and he was

13:23

doing what he wanted. Everybody

13:27

was most clear that

13:29

David's ideas

13:32

were performed, of course,

13:34

so when when he performed himself

13:37

as well, he did what he wanted and

13:39

and he was very clean, very

13:42

clear on on this. And

13:44

of course he was interested in everything

13:47

which has got to do something with

13:50

the technique of the studio,

13:52

and I mean V

13:55

six cannot be

13:57

compared to a studio

14:00

technique today. And there

14:04

was no digital stuff at

14:06

all, and there was everything

14:08

was analope and if you wanted

14:11

to head it music you had to cut the

14:13

tapes and was very heavy,

14:16

very much. What was

14:18

his working relationship like with with Tony

14:21

Visconti, How did they push one another

14:23

and and uh and and work together.

14:26

They they were um

14:29

master and client and

14:32

from both sides, I

14:34

mean, David said

14:38

Tony what to do, and Tony

14:41

said, recommended David something

14:44

and he accepted also. Uh.

14:48

They were good friends, and so

14:51

I came to both of them

14:54

after a while as a good friend too.

14:56

And first of all, there was a

14:59

skeptic, isn't And so

15:02

we were fresh and not

15:05

yet colleagues

15:09

like we we were later

15:11

on. And so during

15:13

the whole time with David Bowie,

15:17

I mean at lasted until until

15:19

eighty seven, him last time,

15:22

except for the concert he did in

15:25

two thousand two. But

15:27

all the time we were good friends

15:29

and Uh and I had

15:32

contact until he

15:34

finished his contact

15:37

with his friends before

15:39

just two years before he died. Probably

15:43

the doctor had said, you have two

15:45

more years and and that's it. And

15:48

at this time we were good friends

15:51

together and well, uh

15:54

could smell each other very

15:57

very well. I know you were at

15:59

a Black Star a listening event at Hansa's

16:01

studios when when you heard the news of his passing.

16:05

In a strange way, it must have been nice to

16:07

be surrounded by so many people at that moment

16:09

who loved him. Yeah. Yeah,

16:12

we had no idea that two

16:15

days after the

16:18

publication of Black Star David

16:21

would pass. I mean, this was was terrible.

16:24

It was It's like, I

16:26

can't believe what's going on. And

16:29

so it was a very

16:31

heavy time at this time. And I

16:34

flew from Berlin when

16:37

Tino woke me up in the morning

16:40

after this weekend and said, David

16:42

has passed, and I said, no way,

16:46

it can't be. But

16:48

it was. And our telephone

16:52

lines were blinking

16:55

all the time, and it was very

16:58

heavy, and I said, I have I

17:00

have to quit now, I have to

17:03

go back to the country. At

17:05

this point, yeah,

17:08

that's That was the

17:11

tenth of January

17:15

two thousand sixteen. It was very heavy,

17:17

heavy for us, for the

17:19

whole world. I guess David's

17:28

relationship with Berlin always seemed very

17:31

special. When I visited Berlin a few

17:33

years back, I got the sense that David was

17:35

revered as far more than just a pop

17:37

star or a talented musician, but he meant

17:39

something to the German people in a much deeper

17:42

way. Berlin has sort of adopted

17:44

him as there their adopted son, and it seems

17:46

like he felt really comfortable there. The

17:49

stories as well was with

17:53

a girlfriend he he had. She

17:57

talked about him that in

18:00

the underground when somebody

18:04

asked her is this David Bowie, she

18:08

she made something very strange

18:11

like, uh, she

18:13

talked to him in German. Uh,

18:17

and uh, we have forgotten

18:19

to to buy some potatoes

18:22

high she said. She said she

18:27

if she covered him from

18:29

everything, and as

18:32

well, Coco I was taking care

18:34

of him all the time, and Coco

18:36

was watching, uh the tapes

18:38

and no, no tapes out

18:41

of the studio and so they

18:43

had made bad experiences

18:46

with stolen tapes

18:48

and uh yeah,

18:51

something like that, and so

18:54

I took very much care

18:56

of all the tapes and yeah,

18:59

that worked

19:02

one for you.

19:05

Spent Christmas with with David and Coco.

19:07

I think it was Christmas even, Yeah, how

19:09

was that? What was that? Like? Yeah, it

19:12

happened that they

19:14

invited me to a Christmas

19:17

meal. I said, oh, yeah, why not? And

19:20

so I came to Houstraza and

19:23

I was shown around this

19:26

apartment and it was many

19:29

rooms, one after another. You

19:31

could go like an

19:34

archum around the

19:36

whole apartment. All

19:39

the rooms were just one

19:42

matters or nothing

19:44

in it, and exactly

19:47

for the year. For the last room,

19:49

which was David's the

19:52

sleeping room where he had a real

19:54

bed, and and

19:56

an idle where he had his paintings,

19:59

and I can't

20:01

remember which painting was just

20:03

on the eisle. Maybe was just the aisle

20:05

standing there alone. But the

20:08

last room was the kitchen, and

20:11

there was everything you needed

20:14

to prepare the

20:16

food and a meal. And Coco

20:19

had had a rooster in

20:22

the oven in the oven, and

20:25

and there were a couple

20:27

of people of course, Iggy

20:30

Pop and his son

20:32

and David's son and

20:35

Cocoa of course. And yeah,

20:38

it was was a

20:40

very funny evening. Was David

20:43

in his privacy, uh

20:45

with with a goose a goose?

20:47

Uh brown

20:50

baked brown and very

20:53

tasty. Yeah.

20:57

Did you see him much outside of the studio

21:00

aside from this Christmas meal? Did you go out to

21:02

dinners or go up coffee or anything

21:04

like that? We we have have

21:07

not. We didn't have very

21:09

much a private

21:12

contact just I

21:15

mean just the studio was was our

21:18

meeting point all the

21:20

time. And I didn't need to fear

21:22

as well, because there was going

21:25

there were going things around

21:27

like the divos was was

21:30

his lady in Switzerland,

21:35

Angie. There were strange stories

21:37

and so I

21:39

couldn't even follow the speeches

21:42

which were held

21:45

there on telephone and

21:47

um. And there was trouble

21:50

with a lawyers as far

21:52

as I remember, There was trouble with

21:55

R. T A with the company who

21:57

didn't like the duct

22:00

of low and what

22:03

have you. What what a ship is

22:05

on this tape. It's

22:09

so funny to hear that now because everyone loves

22:11

it. Yeah, Yeah, it's very

22:13

strange. David's

22:17

spoken a lot about the studio's proximity

22:19

to the wall, the Berlin Mall being

22:21

something that that really unnerved him. You could

22:23

see the guards from the control room.

22:26

What was the atmosphere like? Look

22:29

through when you sit

22:31

in front of the console, You

22:34

could look through a window right

22:37

to the wall, and there

22:39

was a big house behind the wall, and

22:41

on top of the house there

22:44

were two little barracks

22:46

for the guards who

22:48

were wearing binoculars

22:51

and machine guns on

22:54

on their backs. And very

22:57

funny, and did someone we opened

22:59

with we we we listened

23:02

to the tapes on with open

23:04

windows and I'm

23:07

I'm sure they could listen

23:10

and they could watch us with their

23:12

binoculars. And one

23:14

day at the very

23:16

beginning, when we were standing in

23:19

front of the console and looked

23:22

to the wall, I

23:25

took one of the lambs and and directed

23:29

it to the to the guards on top

23:31

of their And at the same time

23:34

Tony and David jumped

23:36

down under the desk to

23:39

hide themselves because they

23:42

thought they were they

23:44

were doing something with their guns,

23:46

and I said, they like us,

23:48

They they don't do us anything

23:52

that they were going to get shot at very

23:55

funny, many

23:58

little jokes around

24:01

a situation, and I

24:03

mean the results were

24:06

quite all right. Off

24:15

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