0:00

Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio.

0:04

Hello and welcome to Off the Record. I'm

0:06

your host, Jordan Runtug. Thanks

0:08

so much for listening. Today, we're

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continuing our Labyrinth Week celebration

0:13

honoring David Bowie's unforgettable

0:15

star turn as Jaref, the baby

0:17

abducting goblin King. My

0:20

guest today is a puppeteer who performs

0:22

several characters in the film. He's

0:24

one of the two headed guards that Jennifer

0:26

Connolly's character out maneuvers with logic.

0:30

He's also one of the fiery figures in the

0:32

Chili Down dance sequence, the one who

0:34

gets his head kicked around like a soccer ball. And

0:37

my favorite, he was Ambrotious, the trusty

0:39

dog of Cerdidimus. But these

0:42

roles, as impressive as they are, are

0:44

just a minuscule part of his resume. This

0:47

gentleman's name is Steve Whittmeier, and

0:49

if you know anything about Muppet history, that's

0:52

all I need to say. I

0:56

know I toss around the world legend a little

0:58

too freely, but in this case, there's no other

1:00

word for it. His work was a

1:02

huge part of my childhood and probably

1:04

yours as well. For twenty six

1:06

years he was the voice and soul of

1:08

Kermit the Frog, not to mention

1:11

Ernie of Burton, Ernie Fame, Rizzle

1:13

the Rat, Bean, Bunny, Wembley,

1:15

Fraggle, Statler of Statler, and

1:17

Waldorf Fame. The list goes on

1:19

and on. His story is

1:22

so genuinely inspiring to me. Steve

1:24

grew up loving puppetry, especially

1:27

Jim Henson's Muppets. After

1:29

hosting a kid's cable show in his native

1:31

Atlanta with his puppet Otis, he

1:33

was invited to audition for his hero. This

1:36

led to years working alongside Henson

1:38

on all manner of projects, The Muppet

1:41

Show, Fraggle, Rock the Dark, Crystal,

1:43

and of course Labyrinth. After

1:45

Henson's death in Steve

1:48

was absolutely gutted his mentor

1:50

was gone. And then he got

1:52

the news that Jim had hand picked him to

1:55

carry on his signature character Kermit.

1:58

Up to that point to have been the only

2:00

person to ever perform as our favorite amphibian.

2:04

Now put this in your own terms. Say you're

2:06

a massive Rolling Stones fan and

2:08

you find out that Mick Jagger has chosen

2:11

you to step into his platforms in front

2:13

the band. Imagine that incredibly

2:15

potent mix of excitement, ecstasy,

2:18

and sheer terror. Steve

2:20

obviously excelled at the role he did it from

2:25

for eights Babies like me. He is

2:27

Kermit, Sesame Street, Muppets,

2:30

Christmas Carol, Muppet's Treasure Island. It's

2:32

all him and now he's creating

2:34

new characters and his web based series

2:36

cave In, where he voices the hilariously

2:39

crabby Weldon, the I T. Guy. It

2:42

was an honor to speak with Steve about Muppets,

2:44

the cosmic philosophy of puppetry,

2:47

whether or not it's actually easy being green,

2:49

and of course his unforgettable encounters

2:51

with Bowie on the set of Labyrinth Enjoy

2:57

To start sort of at the beginning, well,

2:59

how did all this speakin for you? Were? You were ten with

3:01

Sesame Street began and you

3:04

wrote a letter that's correct. I

3:06

I was ten years old and night. I

3:09

had been a Muppet fan for a very long

3:11

time prior to that. But the Muppets

3:14

were really, prior to Sesame Street,

3:16

were kind of almost just an

3:18

act that went on variety shows,

3:21

you know, they didn't have their own show and stuff

3:23

like that, and so it was a

3:25

matter of waiting until they

3:27

were gonna be on you know, the Tonight Show or

3:29

something like that to get to get the chance to see them.

3:32

And when Sesame Street

3:34

happened, suddenly the Muppets were

3:36

on TV every single day, and

3:39

I was just at that right age to get

3:41

you know, really obsessed and become a pride

3:43

a fan of it. I started trying

3:45

to build my own puppets and all that sort of thing, and you

3:47

know, Rocky start with that. It's not an easy

3:50

thing to do. And so I ended up writing

3:52

that letter to Jim Henson and a

3:54

few months later he actually wrote back to me, which

3:56

was amazing now that I look

3:58

back at it, you know, it seems of unlikely and surprising.

4:01

Uh, you know, at a time when there was no social media,

4:04

and it really was you know, a letter with the stamp

4:06

on it. To get a letter

4:08

back from Jim was pretty special. And

4:11

he directed me to some simple muppet

4:14

patterns that he had published

4:16

and I think a Woman's Day magazine some

4:18

years before, super super simple, as

4:21

a way for me to start making puppets.

4:23

So that was really what started me. And once I

4:25

started doing that and learning how to do that,

4:28

I started adding a little inch

4:30

here or a little shape there, and and

4:32

started stiddling around with making different shapes

4:34

and making my own puppets as well. But my

4:36

initial thing was to try and copy

4:38

every character that Jim had done, from Kermit

4:41

to Ernie to Birt to everybody on Sesame

4:43

Street. And I think I read that your

4:45

friends in high school we're calling you Kurmit, like this almost

4:47

seems faded in a way. Well that's

4:50

true. They did, mostly because I

4:52

had my my pretty actually

4:54

pretty poor Kermit puppet

4:56

that I've made by comparison to

4:58

the real one, of course, but whenever there were school

5:01

talent shows or corral recitals

5:03

or things like that, I took every opportunity

5:06

I could should be on stage

5:08

you doing something, not me personally, I was hiding.

5:10

Of course I was in a puppet stage, but to have an

5:13

opportunity to do something with puppets from my classmates

5:16

and stuff like that. So I ended up using Kermit

5:18

quite a lot, the not very good

5:20

version of Kermit I was probably doing at the time, but

5:23

it did gave me the nickname. You're

5:26

working on this this television show in Atlanta,

5:28

the Kids Show with Otis and

5:31

the kids. All through town. They're calling

5:33

in there talking to you. I mean The thing that always

5:35

boggles my mind about your work is how much

5:37

improv is involved, especially for something like that.

5:40

I mean, not only are you giving a performance with

5:42

your body and doing the voice and doing the

5:44

vocal work, but then you have to be that quick to

5:46

like think of what the character would say to these kids.

5:48

I mean, how do you learn that? I bet you're something that you don't learn.

5:51

It's just something that that's kind of born with.

5:53

It's a funny thing. I don't know exactly

5:55

how you learn it, um because

5:57

it's something I always did. I mean, I'm

6:00

a pretty good improv person when it comes

6:02

to doing characters that I know quite well.

6:04

Once I know a character. Once I've done a character for

6:06

a while, and it's very natural to

6:09

play in that character's voice. I'm less

6:12

good at straight improv, you know, I don't do that quite

6:14

as well, But if I know the character, I

6:16

can tear in a conversation indefinitely. And

6:19

that really is what I was doing back in the

6:21

late seventies. What you know, as I was graduating

6:23

high school and doing that first show,

6:26

you know, it was more than two hours a day on

6:28

the air live and taking

6:30

these phone calls. So we had to fill a lot of time

6:32

with a lot of you know, a lot of a lot of

6:34

a lot of talk. And I never gave it a second

6:36

thought. I just sort of did it. So

6:38

to say how you learned that, I think you just you

6:41

do it. Yeah, yeah,

6:43

you just jump in and do it. And it really

6:45

was always throughout my career it's

6:47

been my favorite thing to do, no matter

6:49

which character, whether it would be Rizzl the rad

6:52

or Kermit the Frog or whoever, It's always

6:54

been my favorite thing to do is just to have

6:56

the opportunity to carry on a conversation in

6:58

character. Is it's great fun I

7:01

mean, and this is probably a

7:03

funny question. Where do you go during

7:05

that? Do you are you very present in or

7:07

where are do you? Almost kind of like I I talked to a

7:09

lot of musicians and they say that when they're on stage

7:11

playing solos, they don't know where

7:13

they go. They just kind of go away and they're not there

7:16

and just sort of the music takes over. Is

7:18

that what it's like for you when you're playing a character? You

7:20

know, it's the funny that you should put it that way, because I

7:22

can imagine I'm I'm

7:25

sort of not a great accomplished musician,

7:27

but I've done a little bit of music as well, and that

7:30

can happen, you know, And and there is a similarity.

7:32

I think it might be true with many

7:35

many artistic pursuits. Frankly, you

7:37

know, you know, it's odd. It's

7:39

hard to describe. You know. We watch what we're

7:41

doing on a monitor as we work, so we're

7:43

seeing our work as the audience will see it.

7:46

And I got to a point where I

7:49

was looking at criminal on the

7:51

screen and not thinking about it anymore.

7:54

It was almost as though I retracted

7:56

from anything that I

7:58

was conscious of doing and

8:01

began to just witness

8:03

it, just to watch it as though

8:05

I were an audience member. And there were plenty

8:07

of times, I mean a lot of times still are

8:10

when I would drift off into that character

8:13

and not even think about what that character

8:15

was going to say next, and

8:17

and honestly quite often be surprised

8:19

by it, very

8:22

removed from being the character and

8:24

really more watching the character just come

8:26

out and evolve and kind of channel

8:29

through you, you know. And I'm sure it's the same way with musicians,

8:31

you know, and as incredible men. It really does, it's

8:34

alive, It takes on a life

8:36

of its own. It really does.

8:38

And to me, that is the key

8:41

to whenever the Muppets have done

8:43

something successful and their connection to the audience

8:46

was always about that

8:49

sort of believability. You know, they were

8:51

just as much there and alive as

8:54

the people as a human actor

8:56

or you know, talk show host or whatever that

8:59

they were speaking with just absolutely

9:01

key and unfortunately I think that's

9:03

a little bit missing these days, that

9:06

they're not quite as strong as they might have worn't been.

9:08

But but that's a lot of it. The character

9:11

is such a deeply ingrained character and we all

9:13

know that character when we see it, and

9:15

it's very important that that stay that way for that

9:17

connection to exist. There are

9:19

things that the character will and will not do, choices

9:21

they will and will not make. And yeah, it's it's funny

9:24

that that is. To actually

9:26

know that character as a real person

9:28

is definitely fascinating to me. I guess

9:31

my question to you, in sort of a broad sense,

9:34

is is there one thing that separates

9:37

good puppet performers from

9:40

from the great? Is there is there one thing that you can

9:42

that you can articulate or is it a series of

9:44

many, many, many small things that are honed

9:46

over time. You know, it's hard to put my finger

9:48

on one the future of the thing. I think, it's a lot of

9:50

stuff. It's really interesting when I

9:52

and I don't mean to be critical of anybody's art. I mean

9:54

I think people progress at different stages.

9:57

You learn everybody starts to square one, and

9:59

you learn through this process. You know whether

10:02

you're a musician, whether you're a puppeteer with you're an accurate,

10:04

whether you're an artist, a painter, or whatever. It's

10:07

interesting when I look at a lot of the puppetryes

10:09

that's out there these days, it tends

10:12

to appear to be

10:14

a lot like what we were doing back in about

10:16

nineteen eighty. You know, it hasn't

10:19

progressed a great deal in terms

10:21

of what it is that people are doing in many many

10:23

cases, and that's just a matter of time

10:25

and learning and what style of

10:27

person wants to do. In my opinion,

10:30

what always helped me to be the best

10:32

I could be with puppeteering and

10:34

performing these characters is to put

10:37

them first. It really

10:39

was a matter of looking

10:41

at those characters as though they

10:43

were living, breathing

10:45

entities in the world. The minute

10:48

they become a character, franchise

10:51

you've kind of lost the point, you know, and from the point

10:53

of view of the people who are producing the material

10:55

for these characters, they need to be their

10:57

point of view and their sensibility, and

11:00

the group dynamic of the group of characters

11:03

needs to be the focus through

11:05

which you look at everything you do. I

11:08

guess, going back a little further, how

11:10

did you go from being, you

11:12

know, a teenager with with

11:15

your own homemade kermit to actually

11:18

working with Jim Henson? How did you you first

11:20

cross pass? I understand you you met Carol

11:22

Spinney, who is legendary

11:24

performer Big Bird, oscar

11:27

the Grouch. How did you you first enter

11:29

the Muppets orbit? That's exactly

11:31

how it began. I um time from

11:33

Atlanta originally it's still lived here, and

11:36

I never heard of these things. But there was this puppetry

11:38

festival, this gathering of puppeteers taking

11:41

place in Atlanta, and I

11:43

heard about it and decided to go because I thought

11:45

it'd be fun to meet Carol, you know,

11:47

someone who worked with the Muppets. And I was

11:50

about I guess I was seventeen or eighteen,

11:52

and it hadn't really

11:55

clicked for me that I would be considered

11:57

for a job. I mean, I didn't go for that purpose. I

11:59

just wanted to meet someone who worked with the Muppet just

12:01

you know. And so I met him, and I happened

12:04

to be the only person at this festival

12:07

who at that point in time was

12:09

actually doing Muppet like puppets,

12:12

Muppet style puppet The puppets I

12:14

had created in my own look like the same

12:16

style. So I spent the

12:18

weekend this was a weekend long thing

12:21

with Carol and his wife Debbie. We faced

12:23

contact info, but I I didn't necessarily

12:25

spect to ever hear from him again. And

12:27

about four months later he called and said Jim was

12:30

looking for new puppeteers for Sesame

12:32

Street time. He was he was shooting the Muppet Show,

12:35

but he was looking for new Sesame Street performers

12:37

and thought I should audition. So what

12:39

that led to was was eventually ending

12:42

up in New York with Jim, who called me and invited

12:44

me to come up and spend the two days with him. And

12:46

Jim's idea of an audition

12:49

was to spend about I

12:51

don't know, maybe an hour with puppets

12:53

on our hands, and the rest of the week was

12:56

spent sitting around talking and getting to know each

12:58

other. He really wanted to know there,

13:00

and you know, I was very young. I can only

13:02

imagine what that must have been like and whether I was

13:04

someone that he felt would fit

13:06

in with his group of people. Uh

13:09

so that that interpersonal kind of you

13:11

know, connection between the group was super

13:14

important to him. Yeah. What was

13:16

he like as as a person, Well,

13:18

he was I think one of the best ways to put

13:21

it might be to say he was an integral thinker.

13:23

He was someone who seemed

13:26

to have a pretty good grasp on seeing

13:29

a situation from multiple points

13:31

of view and multiple angles. And he

13:33

was quite a collaborator. He had a great organizational

13:36

sense in terms of bringing the right people

13:38

in for the right projects. And he would meet

13:41

someone in the course of life or

13:43

you know whatever, and he would maybe not

13:45

work with that person for four or five years, and

13:47

but he would remember them and he would

13:50

have this thought in minds that, oh, you know, this

13:52

person I met would be perfect

13:54

for this project. So he's really really

13:57

a student making those kinds of calls

13:59

on people, you know, stuff like that, and

14:01

just a terrific person to work with. I always

14:04

say that I don't feel like I worked for Jim.

14:06

I feel like I worked with him,

14:08

which was really really special. That's funny

14:10

because I speaking to many

14:13

of of David Bowie's colleagues

14:15

and friends, they all said something similar about

14:18

him, is that he he was so good at at

14:20

sort of this almost social alchemy in a way,

14:22

like he would he knew how to put a team

14:24

together and even if it could be years

14:26

down the road, he would remember people and think,

14:28

oh, yeah, that person would be perfect for for

14:30

doing X, Y Z and And that's

14:32

why that whatever he's involved was so good.

14:34

Was that he brought in people, didn't tell them what to do, let

14:37

them be themselves and bring the most authentic

14:39

gifts to the project. And

14:41

that was that was really special. Yeah,

14:43

Jim. Jim was a bit like that. He would come

14:46

in with the vision and an idea, quite

14:48

happy for everyone to have their particular

14:51

input in that project. You know, he was the final

14:53

arbiter of what we actually did and didn't do, but

14:56

more often than not, he gave us an enormous

14:59

amount of freedom just to add our you

15:01

know, our our thing to whatever it was we were doing.

15:04

At what point did David get

15:06

involved with with Jim for the for the Labyrinth

15:09

projects? I know, it sounds like that had a long gestation

15:11

period. Yeah, you know, I can't

15:13

give you a definite answer on that. I'm not quite

15:15

sure. I do know that when he began talking

15:18

about Labyrinth and sort of sharing

15:20

it with us, he'd been working on it for a little while

15:22

at that point. And when I say as,

15:24

I mean, the pup tears. You know, I remember

15:27

a particular conversation. We

15:29

were in Toronto working on some other work, and he

15:31

said, um, something that I'm paraphrasing,

15:34

but he basically said there were a couple

15:36

of people he was looking at for

15:38

the role of Jared. One of them

15:41

was David Bowie and the other was Sting.

15:43

I remember very distically having a conversation

15:45

with him where I said, well, you know, I think Sting

15:48

is amazing, but I sure hope you go

15:50

with David Bowie if he's willing to do it. And Jim

15:52

said, no, no, I I hope so too, And

15:55

uh, you know, it's a matter of whether he's he's going

15:57

to be interested or not. You know, that was pre asking

15:59

I or free getting an answer, but I

16:01

was. I mean, I was just a massive fan of David

16:04

Boie from the time I was in high school.

16:06

You know, Ziggy Stardust was that

16:08

that whole album was just a trademark time.

16:11

I mean, it was just it was the music that I did

16:13

but in my high school rock bands, you know. So

16:16

it was a very big deal, very big deal

16:18

to me to have the chance to meet him and work with it. Oh

16:21

man, I can only imagine when did

16:23

you first meet? You know, I have a few

16:26

embarrassing moments in my life. This is one of them.

16:31

Before we started shooting, we

16:33

were rehearsing some things. We were there for maybe

16:36

a week before the shooting began, and

16:39

Jim decided to have a gathering at his house

16:42

in Hempstead. We all go in Bowie.

16:44

David Boye is gonna be there. Jennifer Connelly was there,

16:47

the cast, you know, the main producers

16:49

and people, and you know, all of us puppeteers.

16:52

And I remember we were

16:54

sort of standing in the full circle of people and

16:57

I was one of a handful of people who was introduced

16:59

to David. He was very gracious

17:01

and kind of quiet, you know, and and

17:03

and you know, very nice to meet you kind of thing.

17:05

After a moment, I said, You're gonna have to I

17:08

was very young as well, You're gonna have to

17:10

forgive me just a little bit if throughout

17:13

the first couple of weeks we're shooting together,

17:15

if you catch me staring at you, I don't mean anything

17:18

by it. I'm just such a massive fan. And

17:22

he smiled, but

17:25

he also took a step back, and

17:30

I remembered it, and

17:32

then shortly after he accused himself, and I

17:34

remember thinking, oh my god,

17:36

I've blown it. I have I

17:38

have made a complete fool of myself

17:41

in front of one of my heroes

17:43

with this fanboy thing. And now

17:45

how can I go in and work with him? You know? So

17:49

that was actually the first meeting, and

17:52

then we go in and begin the work. You know, we're

17:54

working on labor, working every day and see fine,

17:56

we were working okay, but

17:58

one day for some reason,

18:01

so we go we go to the dailies every day that you know,

18:03

we see the work we did. The day before. We're

18:05

leaving the daily theater I'm working. I'm

18:07

walking back to my dressing room

18:09

with a hand a handful of puppeteers

18:12

and we're all gonna gathering our stuff to go home, and

18:15

somebody ran up behind me and

18:17

put you know, like you might run up behind somebody put

18:20

both hands on their shoulders and kind of jump off the

18:22

ground and really pressed on their shoulders for a second,

18:24

you know, just the sneak up on them. It

18:26

was David Boys and

18:29

I had absolutely I I

18:31

don't know why in that moment he

18:33

chose me, but he came to

18:35

me, put hands on my shoulders, look,

18:38

you know, with all the other puppeteers, and said,

18:41

hey, I'm going he still has makeup on from

18:43

the days as the character. He said, I gotta

18:45

go out and get all his makeup off once you come up, and we'll sit around

18:47

and talk for a while. And

18:50

I was flabbergasted. I

18:52

don't know why he chose me in that moment,

18:55

but he did. So that's exactly

18:57

what we did. So I didn't drive in

18:59

the UK at that point because I had never driven.

19:01

I was a little bit afraid to be on the other side of the

19:03

road, so I didn't have a car. My one

19:05

way to get home was that every day they sent

19:08

a mini cab for me, like a little car that this

19:10

guy would drive me home. And

19:12

we're working in Elstree, which was quite

19:14

a distance from where I was staying.

19:16

So you know, I had like one

19:19

shot to get home, so if I didn't

19:21

leave right then. I remember

19:23

the very first thought in my mind was, oh,

19:25

my god, how am I going to get home? I'm

19:29

sleeping here. Yeah, and but and then

19:31

I thought, well, it would be worth it to sleep here. So

19:34

so anyway, he you know, so I go. I

19:36

follow him up to the to the makeup lady

19:39

is working on taking the makeup off. We sat around

19:41

for probably two hours or

19:43

so and just talked about

19:45

everything under the sun that we could think that I could

19:47

think, I have to talk to David Boe about things

19:49

like at the time, Prince was incredibly

19:52

popular, height of Purple Rain popularity.

19:55

We talked about Prince, and then

19:57

somehow we got around to the topic of the fact

19:59

that I had gone out and bought my own

20:02

little recording you know, home recording

20:04

studio and my you

20:06

know, Yamaha d X seven synthesizer,

20:09

which was a big deal at the time, you know. And

20:11

and he said, oh, do you have any of your music here?

20:14

And I did, and he said, oh, go get

20:16

it. I gotta hear it. So I got to

20:18

play my music for what it's worth

20:21

for David Bowie, who was

20:23

extremely encouraging and extremely

20:26

enthusiastic about it, which was a really

20:28

big deal for me. Any problimed

20:30

me on, you know, I mean like like, it seems very

20:33

like sincere compliments. I don't think he would

20:35

have done that just to be nice.

20:37

You know, he wouldn't have said anything bad, but

20:39

he also wouldn't have gone out of his way to say,

20:41

well, that's that's really quite good. You

20:43

know, we wanted to know the lyrics. He really was in tune

20:46

to it, so that was a

20:48

very big deal for me. And then

20:50

I as as I recall the

20:53

the woman who was doing the makeup actually gave

20:55

me a ride home so I didn't get stuck there. This

21:00

sounds like a top three,

21:02

maybe even top two life moment ever.

21:05

I mean, good lord, that's incredible.

21:07

It was a pretty big deal. And you know, obviously

21:10

I will never forget that how

21:12

nice congratious he was to me, and of course that we

21:14

worked on set and had a great time, you know,

21:16

these silly characters that we were doing together

21:19

along playing alongside him when he was singing.

21:22

Just a wonderful guy. And I was very

21:24

surprised. And then you know, I ran into

21:26

him a couple of times after that, just

21:29

because of the connection. I was able to get tickets

21:31

to a to a concert or two

21:33

and I got to pop backstage and say hello,

21:35

you know, things like that. But that

21:38

was really my moment was that evening when

21:40

he decided he was going to spend some time with

21:42

me, you know, for whatever reason. I

21:45

mean, you probably remembered what you said to him the first time

21:47

he met and that was like, that was the moment you

21:50

had the time. I guess, you know, maybe

21:52

so maybe so. We had spoken briefly on the set,

21:54

just in the course of working, but it was really about

21:56

the work. So yeah, who knows

21:58

that that is

22:01

amazing? Oh man, I mean that

22:03

that that shoot. It seems like a really incredibly

22:05

hard, arduous shoot, but also it looks

22:07

like a really fun shoot. Did Did David have a

22:10

good sense of humor? Yeah? I think he did, And

22:12

I think he had to to deal with this because yeah,

22:14

it was it was a complicated shoot. I mean,

22:16

he's he's a professional. He's used to working in

22:18

a set and you know, he knows what it's like to work

22:20

on a film. But sometimes

22:22

are are things that we would do with these mass

22:25

scenes of puppets. It takes a long time to set

22:27

him up. It takes a long time to get them working.

22:29

You've got so many characters working out at

22:31

the same time, and Jim's trying to coordinate

22:33

those characters to do things because it was all practical

22:36

effects at that point, you know, so

22:38

everything had to work in camera. So

22:40

yeah, yeah, very patient guy and

22:42

but just always a gets us of humor and you

22:45

know, he always seemed to be enjoying himself,

22:47

which was terrific. What was the uh,

22:50

the trickiest scene for you to shoot? Was it that? The chili

22:52

down scene. That's a pretty good estimate

22:55

on the hardest thing we did. Yeah, because

22:57

it was the early

22:59

day of computer

23:01

controlled cameras, you know, trying to

23:04

to match these shots over and over again with cameras

23:06

that that tried to do the same motion. And

23:09

you look at it now and you can kind of see this little halo

23:11

around all the characters. You know, it's pretty crude by

23:13

today's special effects standards.

23:15

But I I did the the guy

23:18

who was the one whose head comes

23:20

off and gets kicked across the room and stuff

23:22

like that, So I was I

23:25

was doing the head of that character, which means, you

23:27

know, you've got I don't know how many

23:29

maybe fifteen twenty puff of tears, all dressed

23:32

in black clothing with

23:34

these hoods on, so we can hardly see running

23:37

through a black set that was kind of slippery

23:39

and so real time, you know, they

23:41

had my that head had to fly across

23:44

the room as though it had been kicked

23:46

or hits, you know, or whatever that was about. So I'm

23:48

running through space trying to make his head

23:50

twy across. You know. The

23:52

choreography for that just is absolutely

23:55

stunning and I can't get over because in addition

23:57

to the physical demands of the character,

24:00

you also have to deliver a performance too, which

24:02

is the thing that I can't run my mind around doing all

24:04

of those things all at once. That's unbelievable

24:06

to me. It's aught to think about sometimes, yeah,

24:08

especially when it says choreographs and blocked

24:11

as that. That was done by a guy named

24:13

Charles Oggins, who I think he's still

24:15

around, but he was a very talented

24:17

dancer and choreographer

24:19

and we all worked with Charles to figure this out. But it was

24:21

a great coordination effort. You know, um,

24:24

three or four people per character trying

24:26

to do that thing. Now, did

24:28

you have any choice over which characters

24:31

that that you were playing. I mean, if

24:33

because obviously there were just so many, or was it

24:35

really just like, hey, you can you grab one of these one of

24:37

these goblins right now? We need to get forty

24:40

five people in the castle. Right now, we

24:42

need everybody we can get, or did you get

24:44

the sort of pick and choose, like being one of the guards

24:46

or well Jim, Jim chose

24:49

which one of those guards I was. I was one

24:51

of the four heads, and he chose

24:53

Uh as when you said guards, I'm talking about the guys

24:55

who were the the top and the bottom of

24:57

the doors. You know, there were four guys who when

25:00

and she chooses which door to go through, almost

25:02

like with playing cards, almost, Yeah, and Jim

25:05

chose who would do which one of those

25:07

just I don't know whether he had specific reasons

25:09

for choosing. He just made a choice. The four

25:11

of us who did that. I think

25:13

when it came to the goblins, I probably

25:15

had some free reign on that although they sort of had their

25:17

goblins they're gonna put in the front, and

25:20

uh, you know I did one of those guys, and I remember

25:22

choosing the one I loved was this little guy

25:25

with a flat head with a long, skinny

25:27

nose, and I loved that carried that puppet

25:29

was such a great puppet. So I

25:31

may have rushed in and grabbed that guy because I loved him so

25:34

much, you know. I

25:37

mean, is there, aside from your your moment,

25:39

your private moment with David, you have any favorite

25:41

moments from from on the set, anything stick

25:43

out? Oh? Wow, you know, it's a little hard for

25:45

me to remember a lot of that. Um, what

25:48

I really recall is the camaraderie

25:51

of this massive project

25:53

coming together, and Jim was obviously

25:56

very busy and distracted,

25:58

but he always kept a good humor and had

26:00

a moment to smile. One of my favorite

26:03

things is that no movie

26:05

would allow you to do this these days. Jim

26:07

always loved it when I would

26:09

bring like my um early

26:11

days it was a Super eight camera, but then it was home

26:14

video and shoot stuff. Uh. He loved

26:16

the fact that I was documenting things

26:19

and we didn't always have behind the scenes people.

26:21

So, I mean, I've got some videos people have

26:23

never seen. I don't know whether I

26:25

have anything of David particularly, but

26:27

of just the process of shooting that film.

26:30

I got a lot of stuff, and I don't even know

26:32

what the legality is of showing it somewhere,

26:34

you know what I mean, It's amazing.

26:36

I mean a lot of stuff of Jim specifically

26:39

talking to my camera about the

26:41

process. You know, he loved

26:43

the fact that I was you know, I knew him and

26:46

we worked together for years, and that I was the guy

26:48

shooting that. You know, you

26:50

have here a little documentary. That's amazing. Oh,

26:52

you gotta do something with that. That's so cool.

26:55

I'd love to see that. I hope I can at some point.

26:57

Yeah, I want to figure out a way to get it out

26:59

of the world little bit. What was Jim's

27:01

working relationship like with David, because they they're

27:03

saying early they kind of seemed very similar in a lot of

27:05

ways. I imagine them them really hitting it off. Yeah,

27:08

I mean, it certainly seemed on the set that it was wonderful,

27:11

you know. And I don't know how much they kept

27:13

in touch after the film was over. It wouldn't surprise

27:15

me if they did, but I don't really know that.

27:18

But certainly on set it was great. I mean, I think

27:20

they tended to agree on most

27:22

of what was going on. Well, for instance,

27:24

is that I don't think Jim

27:27

in any way imagined there

27:29

being music in this film. I don't. I don't think he

27:31

was going for that. But when David

27:34

wanted to do music for the film, it suddenly

27:36

became a bit of a musical, you

27:38

know. Suddenly a character would break into song,

27:41

you know, and that changed

27:43

the certainly the feel of what I said,

27:45

what the direction I think Jim was going in. I don't,

27:47

I don't. I don't think he was looking for it to be a musical.

27:50

I forgot David Bowie and he wants

27:52

to wants to do his thing, Well, yeah, what

27:54

are you gonna? Right? And David wanted to do music

27:57

for it, and I mean the music is great, you know, but

28:00

in terms of their relationship, I mean, as best

28:02

I could certainly see, it was

28:04

professional and friendly and they

28:06

certainly seemed to be enjoying the

28:09

silliness of working together. But David playing

28:11

this kind of strong lead character

28:14

who seemed to have these other intentions

28:16

in some ways. You know, what

28:25

was David and Jennifer Connelly's uh

28:28

friendship? Like, like what was there were they sort

28:31

of like were they friends on set? Well?

28:34

You know, they certainly had to work closely together

28:36

and place some kind of intimate stuff together,

28:38

and obviously she was fourteen at the time,

28:41

but he was playing a sort of a fantasy

28:44

in her mind in a certain way, you know, real coming

28:46

of age kind of thing for her. I don't

28:48

know whether we really know. At the end of the film, we

28:50

sort of indicate that these were all real

28:52

things that happened to this this character, but

28:55

in a way it was very metaphorical in

28:57

its in this whole thing about this coming of age

28:59

story her. I feel like they

29:02

worked together incredibly well. I can't

29:04

give you any insight on their direct relationship

29:07

in terms of, you know, how how that

29:09

was to work together, but it seemed

29:11

like as was typical with most of

29:13

the things Jim did, and this was a massive

29:16

undertaking this particular project. I

29:18

never felt that there was any kind of tension from anyone,

29:21

you know, Jim. Jim tended to have a set

29:23

where people were enjoying the work,

29:25

you know, as we as we got through it. I

29:28

mean it it looks like a blast. I

29:30

mean, do you do you remember seeing it all completed

29:32

for the first time? Was it at the premiere? The

29:34

first time we saw the film was

29:37

in Toronto. We might have been shooting

29:39

Fraggle Rock so talk about two

29:41

extremes of different projects. Um,

29:45

you know, we were. We were sort of in

29:47

the middle of the four years, the four

29:49

or five years we did on Fraggle when Labyrinth

29:51

came along, and I seem to recall Jim

29:53

having a Toronto screening West

29:56

where we did Fraggle, and and all of us

29:58

going to a theater seeing it there. I

30:00

mean I was blown away by For me, I loved it immediately

30:03

because I loved everything about it from

30:05

David you know, I was also a big rocky horror

30:08

fan. Oh my god. Yeah. I

30:10

felt like there were some parallels between

30:13

Tim Curry's character in that and what David

30:15

was doing. Even it was very, very different, but

30:18

this powerful sort of figure

30:20

was sort of almost like the sexual tension

30:23

thing going on. There seems to be some similarities,

30:25

and I loved everything about it. I

30:28

can't tell you. I I can think of at least a dozen

30:30

women in my life that say that their first crush was

30:32

David Bowie in that movie. Well, you know,

30:34

I guess so. And it's really interesting I do. I do

30:36

comic cons these days quite often, and the

30:38

number of people, the cost players who come through

30:41

dressed as the two

30:44

characters, you know, the Sarah character and David's

30:46

character, and oftentimes there's two women

30:48

doing that. A lot of women dressed as him in that

30:51

film. You know, it's a very kind of androgynous

30:53

character, but a lot of his stuff was that way. You know,

30:56

Yeah, they're actually I have several friends

30:59

who have just addressed up as a chair for Halloween

31:01

too. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

31:05

I mean, there's so many things that you've

31:07

been involved with that that just means so much

31:09

for so many people. I mean, you know, of course

31:11

obviously, Kermit, I mean, how did

31:13

you receive the news that you were

31:16

I don't even know what the word is. The phrase

31:19

would be just to to now inhabit

31:21

that character. Yes, yeah, it

31:23

was pretty shortly after Jim's death.

31:26

You know, we were all going through an

31:28

incredible period of just down

31:30

depression the morning, you know, terrible,

31:32

terrible thing. But it wasn't too long

31:35

after that because Jim's

31:38

family was still in the process

31:40

of theoretically trying to make the deal

31:42

work where he was selling his company to the Walt

31:45

Disney Company, which fell apart

31:47

at that point, didn't happen, but everybody

31:49

was making a go of it. I mean, the plan was to go ahead with

31:51

that, so Kermit needed to continue

31:54

to exist. And from

31:57

what I gather, although he and I never talked

31:59

about it, Jim had knowing that

32:01

he was going into Disney. He was sort of like John

32:04

Lasseter became. He was gonna be this new creative

32:07

force within Disney. Um

32:09

many many projects and ideas were being

32:11

run by him for his thoughts. He was gonna

32:13

be the real, a real creative force within

32:15

Disney. And I think he felt that he

32:19

might suddenly be in a position

32:21

where he simply didn't have the

32:24

time to perform Kermit anymore. Uh.

32:27

And he'd been the Kermit for thirty five years

32:29

at that point, so rather

32:31

than Kermit go away, And it wasn't like

32:34

he wanted to hold open auditions, as

32:36

was Jim's way of doing it. He wanted

32:38

to pass it on to someone that he felt

32:41

could handle it. I guess, and there he

32:43

felt that about me, because he had mentioned it to a

32:45

couple of people to his wife, Jane and I

32:48

think Frank Coz and a few other people,

32:50

but a small group that in the event that

32:52

he was not able to continue to do

32:54

it, he was thinking about acting

32:57

me if I would give it a shot. Jim was

32:59

the only person everyday Kermit. We we all did our

33:01

characters and nobody else did our characters. So

33:04

to suddenly be told that was

33:07

a big deal, you know, obviously, and very

33:09

scary to me and insimidating.

33:13

But I immediately said I would give it a try.

33:15

And it was. I mean, the way it was put to me was, would you like to

33:17

try it? And I immediately said

33:19

yes. But it was an incredible

33:22

honor and just

33:24

really scary at the same time. You know, I

33:27

cannot even begin to imagine. I mean, what

33:30

was it look for you when you were handed

33:33

I don't want to call him a puppet because that seems

33:35

really disrespectful, but when when you were handing Kermit

33:38

for the first time he was yours? What was that

33:40

would you remember, like like having him in your hand for the

33:42

first time and knowing that this was now a part

33:45

of you. I had stood in

33:47

for Jim like once or twice,

33:50

but but I mean, that's all that means is I

33:52

put the puppet on while he did another puppet, and then

33:54

he immediately took it back, and you know, he would

33:56

dub the lines later. So dog I

33:58

had never had the puppet on the war. But

34:01

really the first time I

34:04

had any contact with the actual physical

34:06

puppet after Jim's death, and

34:08

knowing that it was now up to me to try to make

34:10

it work, was very private. I

34:12

mean, they actually sent me

34:15

a Kermit puppet um within

34:17

weeks after Jim died, and we talked about this

34:20

for me to begin to fiddle around with it. So it came to

34:22

my home, you know, in a box, you know. And

34:26

you know, I remember very very

34:29

specifically that when I took

34:31

the puppet out of the box, it

34:34

smelled like Jim. I

34:36

mean, I don't even know what that means exactly. Jim didn't

34:38

smell, but you know what I mean, you have a spent

34:42

you know. It was the last puppet

34:44

that he had used. You know, we had worked together

34:46

just a few weeks before. I remember

34:49

it so well. And I put the puppet

34:51

on, and I'm standing in my bedroom in front of a dresser

34:53

mirror, you know, And I knew

34:56

how to make a puppet work, you know, I've done that a lot by

34:58

it. So I remember holding it up to the mirror and

35:01

having Kermit look at the mirror and sort of then as

35:03

though he was looking at we were looking at each other

35:05

in the mirror, you know, and then uh,

35:08

you know, my hands turned Kermit's

35:10

face towards me, and I really

35:13

it was it was uncanny. I got this sense

35:15

of it was almost like kermittt was

35:17

saying to me, Okay, well

35:19

go on say something. You know, you've got it, you got

35:21

it, do the voice. And it completely

35:24

freaked me out. I I took the puppet off.

35:26

I put the puppet in another room and I didn't

35:28

go near it for about three weeks. It

35:33

was a very weird, weird, kind of strange

35:36

moment. And eventually

35:39

I remember Brian Hanson. I

35:42

think it was Brian who got in touch with me and said, you

35:44

know, how's it going. We sort of need to It

35:47

would be good for us if we could see something that

35:49

you're doing, you know. And I

35:51

so I put together a tape of me

35:54

singing. I think it was not it's not that easy

35:56

being green. They sent me a track and I

35:59

recorded my us on top of it and shot

36:02

it. I mean, I don't think I ever

36:04

sounded exactly like Jim. But

36:07

I realized quite early on that the most

36:09

important part of this process was

36:11

going to be to make sure Kermit state

36:14

who Kermit was, that the character needed

36:16

to be consistent, and I

36:18

mean, I just knew that. And the fortunate

36:21

part for me was that I at that point I

36:23

worked with Jim for a little over twelve

36:25

years and beside

36:27

him almost all the time when he was doing Kermit, doing

36:29

other characters or assisting in with Kermit

36:32

or something like that, and so

36:34

I really had a sense of where

36:37

Kermit came from from within Jim.

36:39

You know, that was super important. The things

36:41

that were affectations of Gems

36:45

that were really Jim that became

36:47

a Kermit, and how that seemed to happen,

36:49

you know. So those were things I was able

36:52

to recall my

36:54

own experience of that. And I could have watched

36:57

YouTube videos all day long of the

36:59

work that him and done, and it would not have given

37:01

me what I really needed, which was that interior,

37:04

you know, origination point from

37:07

Jim. So that's really the only way

37:09

it would have been possible. I was gonna say,

37:12

knowing Jim, it seems to have been much

37:14

more helpful than being any kind of impressionist or

37:16

anything to your right, well, exactly exactly,

37:19

And it's very easy to copy somebody sometimes,

37:21

you know, you can just copy what they do and do your

37:23

impression of them. But I knew from doing

37:26

my own characters, you know, because I've

37:28

done a number of my own characters by then, that to

37:31

do that would mean that Kermit

37:33

would become very stale, very quickly,

37:35

and he would just be a copy, you know, be a parrot.

37:37

And I didn't want him to be a clone of Jim. He

37:41

needed to be based on that, but he needed to evolve,

37:43

He need to continue to grow, otherwise

37:46

he wouldn't be viable as a character going forward.

37:48

I must imagine be like a jazz player

37:50

getting a lead sheet to a to a jazz

37:52

standard. You got the chords there, You've got the basic

37:55

structure, but then you veer off

37:57

of that and you make it your own, and you do your own thing. You

37:59

put your own in flect fins on it. It's a funny

38:01

thing. I hadn't thought about it until you said it. Just then. The

38:03

natural way that we would all make that statement is

38:05

to say, you know, you start with the basis

38:08

and something and then you make it your own, and and

38:10

that's true, but it really what it boiled

38:12

down to was to start in the basis

38:15

of Jim's Kermit keep

38:17

his influence a part of it rather than

38:20

make it my own. It's almost as though

38:22

I was just trying to allow Kermit to continue

38:24

to grow. And that really came

38:26

in handy in the first couple of projects

38:28

we did shortly after Jim's death. One of them was the

38:30

Muppet Christmas Carol and the other was

38:33

Muppet Treasure Island. Both

38:35

were cases where sort

38:37

of playing Jim playing Kermit,

38:40

but then Kermit was playing an additional

38:42

role. It wasn't really Kermit, you know, he

38:45

was other characters within those stories.

38:47

So that was kind of a challenge too. It's like three

38:49

times removed, you know, Oh,

38:52

I can only I mean, we just watched

38:54

Muppets Christmas Carol this year. I mean I was I was

38:56

actually thinking about watching, like, oh my god, you're

38:59

right, this is Kermit as Bob chriss

39:01

Bob cratchit as Kermit or wait a wait, now I know I'm

39:03

confused exactly.

39:07

That was my first really major thing as

39:09

Kermit after Jim's death, and it

39:12

was the right tone and the right type of project,

39:15

and the Muppets were I think very well cast in that

39:17

Kermit was the right character to play that character,

39:19

you know, and you were Beans

39:22

as well? Right, being Bunny, I was being a was Rizzo

39:24

as well. Rizzo with Gonzo is one of my

39:26

guys, and yeah, many many things. Be

39:31

Bean is my favorite in that And I

39:33

still I could I get choked up to

39:35

this day. I first saw this movie when it

39:37

came out and I was like five years old whenever the

39:39

camera pans over to to to being Bunny and

39:42

when he's sleeping outside of the hold, like,

39:44

I can't, I can't handle that. To this thirt

39:47

and three years old, I can't. This a little shivering

39:49

thing. Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's a nice

39:51

little moment, but it kind of gets the point across. You know, God,

39:55

how does that feel for you? I mean these movies,

39:57

you know. I mean, I'm sure you get this old time and in many

40:00

different ways from people who are much more articulate than me.

40:02

But I mean, these these movies, these characters,

40:05

these moments that there are a huge

40:07

part of my life and millions

40:09

and millions of others. I mean, how does it feel to know

40:11

that you've had that kind of impact on people?

40:13

I mean every year at Christmas, we watched this movie with

40:15

my family, you know, my girlfriend and it's just

40:18

it's really special for us. What's that like for you?

40:20

Yeah, it's a funny thing. You know. Part of the

40:22

reason why I love doing the comic cons

40:24

is because I get to meet so many of the fans. You know, when

40:27

we were doing this work over the years, we

40:29

worked in a studio, kind of in this vacuum. You

40:31

know, we didn't have a live audience that you didn't see

40:33

people and pre Internet, you know,

40:36

you've got the feedback that you've got, but it was a little bit

40:38

different than there was no social media or anything like that. You

40:40

don't know what people are thinking. You know what the reviewers

40:42

you're thinking, but that's about it. So it's

40:45

gratifying to know that there

40:47

was a documentary done some years ago about

40:49

George Harrison and I believe Martin Scorcese

40:52

directed. It's a great documentary. Living in

40:54

the material world one of my favorites.

40:57

Love it and forgive me, but I always

40:59

get for money pies on. I get Terry Jones and Terry

41:01

Gilliam mixed up because of their names, not because

41:03

of what they looked like. I think it's

41:05

Terry Gilliam who is in there being interviewed because

41:08

all of that time. You know

41:10

that the money Piespines flying circus time

41:12

and George Harrison's involved with them,

41:14

and all that was going on at exactly

41:16

the same time we were doing The Muppet Show in England.

41:19

He makes the statement in there basically

41:21

where he says, it was a little arrogant on our part,

41:24

but we were doing what we wanted

41:26

to do with almost no regard

41:28

for the fans whatsoever. It's like John Lennon

41:30

said, you know, we we it didn't

41:33

matter whether anybody liked it. We were gonna do it

41:35

anyway. And that's actually it

41:37

wasn't arrogant, but that's exactly the way Jim

41:40

was. Jim did what he wanted

41:42

to do, and it just so happened that people responded

41:45

to it. You know, he did a lot of things people didn't respond

41:47

to. I mean, labretth wasn't immediate

41:49

big success. It was you know, it's

41:51

been it's become more of a cult success

41:54

than it was an immediate success. And he would have loved

41:56

that. But it was true of all of this work.

41:58

And I resonate with out to the extent

42:00

that while I'm having this great opportunity

42:03

to meet fans who love the work. It

42:05

was purely for selfish reasons, you know, And

42:08

it wasn't about money, and it wasn't about fame. It was

42:10

about doing this incredible thing and

42:12

having the opportunity to do it. You know, dream

42:15

come true. You know how many people have a dream when they're

42:18

when they're a teenager and then get to

42:20

actually do it. I mean, that's that is absolutely

42:23

unbelievable. I mean, you know, some of it is

42:25

luck, but a whole lot of its talent, and a lot of

42:27

it is just plain luck. You know, it

42:29

really is. I mean I look

42:32

back at it, and you can it's very You can look

42:34

back at scenarios and see

42:36

how things fell into play. So you

42:38

could say it's serendipity or it's meant to be, and

42:41

maybe it is, but it also is

42:43

just interesting to see the pattern of how

42:45

everything fell into place for me to

42:47

end up in the right place at the right time.

42:50

When Jim I was the right age, he was looking

42:52

for young people. He wanted like a

42:54

person to come over and become a part of his core

42:56

team, and I became that person. Could

42:59

have been somebody else, know, but it happened to be me. Right

43:01

is the right time you know, when

43:14

is the when you when you're going out and you're meeting fans at comic

43:16

cons. What's the most common thing that

43:18

people say? Oh, just say say

43:21

this in so and so's voice. Is

43:23

there a common thing that people come up to you and ask you to do? People

43:25

do ask me to do the voices, and I

43:27

actually rarely do it. I usually tell them,

43:30

you know, I really, I really don't do the voices outside

43:32

of when I was performing the characters, you know, trying

43:35

to let people down. But I would say

43:37

the most common thing they say is quite

43:40

similar to what you were stating, and it's always

43:42

great to hear it, and that is that it's just such

43:44

a huge part of their lives, you know

43:46

that it's um they usually

43:49

have some memory of a parent

43:51

or grandparent or a time in their lives when

43:53

the Muppets for whatever reason might have meant

43:55

something to them in particular. And I resonate

43:58

with that because I was actually

44:00

the same way prior to working

44:02

with Jim. You know, it was. It

44:05

was a massive part of my life for a

44:07

good nine or ten years before

44:10

any notion of ever doing it as

44:12

a career came about, you know, So I know

44:14

exactly what they feel. There's

44:16

a connection. I used to look at the Muppet

44:19

as a kid. I didn't realize this at the time,

44:21

but I know it now. I think the audience was looking

44:24

at these characters as

44:27

you know, you sort of saw pass them to the person

44:29

who was performing them, because they because

44:31

they were a unique aspect of

44:33

whoever that performer was. You know, it was a particular

44:36

performer. They didn't switch around characters, and

44:39

that person would potentially be that character for

44:41

their whole life as far as Jim was concerned.

44:44

So the connection is through

44:46

the puppets to the performers,

44:48

between the audience and the performer, like any other performer.

44:51

You know, it's like it might be through music to

44:53

a musician. You know, it's a very similar kind of

44:56

thing. And Jim was not extremely

44:58

precious about the characters he He

45:01

really seemed to look at that the Muppet

45:03

as the puppet. You know, the puppets were tools tools

45:06

of his artistic expression, like a paintbrush

45:09

or or if he'd been a carpenter, you know, Kermit

45:12

might have been a hammer, you know, or

45:14

a guitar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you never know. Wow,

45:17

that's that's such an interesting way to put I never thought

45:20

of that. I was gonna ask you, and I know you you canna think I'm

45:22

a crazy person for asking this, but like, what

45:24

was your relationship like with the figures

45:26

themselves? And the fact that you had Kermit shipped to you

45:29

like boggles my mind because I think, oh my god, it's

45:31

just it's the kind of thing that would be sent with

45:33

like armed guards and in like some kind of special

45:35

truck, like you know, on loan from the Smithsonian

45:38

or something like did you have a special place for

45:40

it, did you? Or was it like you just said, was it just

45:42

a tool and you just kind of put it over there when you were done?

45:44

And yeah, I kind of was that.

45:47

It's really interesting thing with puppeteers, and

45:49

I'm sure there are ways to relate this to other artists

45:53

and the type of work they do with whatever the tools

45:55

of their tradear. I had built so

45:57

many characters, and when you start with a concept

45:59

for character and you build

46:01

it from the inside out to be whatever

46:04

it's gonna be, that you always have that

46:06

objective view of it along with the subjective

46:08

you from the point of view as a character. So

46:11

I should look at Kermit differently. When Jim

46:13

was doing Kermit to a certain extent. I'll

46:15

give you an example. We never talked to our characters.

46:18

We don't relate to the characters like we sit there

46:20

and talk to the puppets, you know. They we

46:22

put them on. We do what we do and we have a

46:24

great time doing We stay in character and they

46:26

say cut and we keep going for ten minutes

46:28

and stuff like that. But

46:31

it is all about just us doing a performance

46:33

with the characters. We don't feel like we have a

46:36

separate relationship with the characters per

46:38

se. But I remember one time I walked

46:40

on the set and Frank was doing Piggy, and

46:43

for whatever reason, Miss Piggy

46:45

looked at me and said, oh, hello, Stephen, And

46:47

it was so cool and

46:51

and I mean by by this point, yeah,

46:54

by this point I had been working

46:56

with the Muppets at Puppets forever, you

46:58

know, I mean, I've better been doing in Puppets for twenty

47:01

years and with the Muppets for five,

47:03

so but it was still there was something

47:05

cool about Ms Piggy

47:07

speaking to me because Frank would normally do that. It's

47:09

just something that came out of his mouth. You know, I have

47:12

to walk on the set, you know, but

47:16

I totally get that. Yeah, I know what it feels

47:18

like. You know, it's just not the normal way

47:20

that I would look at it. You know, it

47:24

has been such a joy talking. Before I

47:26

let you go, I want to talk to you about the new

47:28

series that you're doing featuring

47:31

this amazing character. Well didn't

47:33

the I t guy and Internet

47:35

troll tell me tell me more about about your

47:37

new series. So Weldon

47:40

basically came about after I was no longer a part

47:42

of the Muppets, and I was thinking, well, you know,

47:44

I know that to do this work from

47:46

doing series over the years that if

47:49

you walk away from doing it for a while, it's

47:52

like getting back on a bicycle. You know, you can

47:54

still ride, but it takes a minute to get your balance.

47:56

So I thought, I want to look for something that

47:59

that basically I can do on

48:02

little no budget, that just

48:04

keeps my skill set growing, you

48:06

know what I mean, keeps me sharp with the puppetry,

48:09

the improv and all that stuff. So

48:12

that's how this came about. It seemed

48:14

appropriate, you know, well it's really a return

48:16

back to you were talking about this kid's show with those

48:18

things that I did forty years ago. It's

48:21

very much the same kind of thing, only

48:24

instead of people calling in on the telephone, they now

48:26

call in on discord. You know, this is via

48:28

the internet. The basic point of the

48:30

show was is for this character to have

48:33

exchanges with whoever is calling in. Therefore,

48:36

most of the material just comes out of the conversation

48:38

and somebody gets really slow and boring. I

48:40

used to go back and edit the shows after the live

48:43

stream. What we post is a slightly

48:45

tightened version most of the time. But that's

48:47

the fun of it, you know. And I've got this kind

48:49

of It's funny because certain people

48:52

out there who watched this character have

48:55

almost become cast members. I mean, you

48:57

know, they call every month and they are

49:00

almost a part of the show, so we expect for them to check

49:02

in. You know, is a real undertaking to do

49:04

this. As simple as it is

49:06

in concept, it actually I overcomplicated

49:09

like crazy because I hear about the production values

49:12

on it. You don't you don't do what I did for thirty

49:14

forty years and then just do something

49:16

that's tackie. I'm trying to do something that's got

49:18

to be confestivety to. So we do these

49:21

production numbers that run in every show.

49:23

It can be to where from to to. We've

49:25

done some ten minute long narratives. I

49:28

have one puppet that I built, which is

49:30

Weldon, So Weldon is

49:32

um played all the roles and all the

49:34

production numbers we do if there are multiple characters.

49:37

I've always loved shooting against green screen

49:39

and what can be done in terms of of placing

49:42

characters, you know, into scenarios,

49:45

into stats, into polices. So that's

49:47

a lot of what we're doing. I'm lucky to be working

49:49

with a young man named Liam Nelson who has

49:52

his own production company, h Do Heaven

49:54

Productions, and so the studio we worked

49:56

in is a tiny little space, but

49:59

we're able to do some pretty ambitious

50:01

things in here, you know, and

50:04

I'm loving it. I mean, it's a fun little character

50:06

to do. And you know, I'm also developing some other things

50:08

too, but it takes a walk for those things to get off the ground. Some

50:10

of it is with former colleagues who

50:13

I've worked with who really want to work together,

50:15

and uh, some other ideas that will be probably

50:18

bigger shows, but also bigger

50:20

shows cost more money, so you know,

50:23

we have to pull all that together. You know. Oh

50:26

it is it is hysterical I I watched

50:28

a few episodes before speaking you, and it is it's

50:30

so great. I really love it. I'm

50:32

I'm so excited to so we're gonna do next all So that's

50:35

so exciting. Oh well, thank you, I'm and

50:37

I'm glad we talked about it, and um, you know, I'm

50:39

really mostly doing it as

50:41

a learning experience. And and by the way, one

50:44

of the I mean, it's not just the puppetry.

50:46

I'm doing everything. I'm writing music. I'm playing

50:49

the music and recording it. Any any music

50:51

to hear on there I do, and and all

50:54

of the editing and most of the writing,

50:56

although I have Jim Lewis, a former

50:58

colleague who works with the Muppets, is helping

51:00

me produce it. I've been around those

51:02

things my whole life. But I'm really learning the practicality

51:05

of doing it now, which is

51:07

fun, you know, hard and fun. I

51:10

was gonna say that sounds like an absolutely mammoth

51:12

undertaking it is, but uh,

51:15

we do. We do one per month, We do the last

51:17

variety of every month. We do a live

51:19

stream per month, and I would

51:21

not be able to pull anything more

51:23

than that together because I'm doing it virtually

51:25

all myself. I

51:28

just want to thank you so much for your time night. Before

51:30

I let you go, I have one final question.

51:33

You're gonna hang up on me. What's

51:37

Kerman's favorite David Bowie album? Oh

51:39

my god, how would I possibly

51:42

up? There's gotta be a great answer to that, right, wow.

51:46

Trying to figure out what it is at the climb inside

51:48

Kermit's head for a minute. I think,

51:50

uh, it might album. I

51:52

don't know, but the song might be a laddinsane

51:57

I always, I always, I always say it like that, a

52:00

Laddin saying, because I know that was fun. But

52:02

Kermit loved fun, so that could easily be

52:04

it. Well, you know when

52:07

we um when we were doing around

52:09

the Labrary, I guess after

52:11

Labyrinth, David's son who

52:14

was Zoe, But I think he went with Joey

52:16

in the end worked at the Creature Shop

52:18

for a while. I don't know if you knew that. Oh that's

52:20

right, yeah, he

52:24

yeah, I think he is, and but for for

52:26

a number of years there, I believe he. I don't think

52:29

I ever actually met him, but he was working

52:31

in the Creature shop, presumably working

52:33

on building fabricating stuff. You know, Well,

52:37

that's a funny full circle there will. Yeah,

52:39

yeah, I thought so too, but

52:43

yeah, I was. It was it really hit me very

52:45

hard when when I heard that he

52:47

had passed away. You know, it was it was just,

52:50

you know, he was just he was just such a part of my life

52:53

and he was always there, and

52:55

we always and we worked together and they're always

52:57

even though you know, after that point,

52:59

I see him once in a while, but and we weren't super

53:02

close friends, but it felt like there was a connection,

53:04

and I really, I really mourned over

53:06

that. A little Bit Off

53:12

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