0:00

Hi, my name's Ryan Atkins and I am

0:02

a senior manager for London, Northeastern

0:05

railway . And I'm also a professional football

0:07

referee in the English leagues.

0:09

And I'm just about coping.

0:16

I'm Simon Blake and this is just about coping.

0:18

This is a fifth episode, five of

0:20

eight, so we're over halfway through and I hope

0:23

you're enjoying the conversations as much as I

0:25

am. Today's

0:30

guest is Ryan Atkins by day.

0:32

He's a senior manager for Alinea

0:34

railways and at night

0:36

and at the weekends he's a professional football referee

0:39

in the English leagues. We talked

0:41

about the role of sports in wellbeing.

0:44

We talked about his experiences as coming

0:46

out as a gay man in a sport where

0:48

there are currently no other

0:50

openly gay people. And related

0:52

to that, bringing your whole self to work.

0:55

We covered a bit about Christmas in old Lang zine

0:57

as well. So our conversation was

0:59

really wide ranging and I really hope you enjoy

1:01

it. Let's

1:06

start by talking a bit

1:07

about your experience of football, how,

1:10

you know, given that there's so much focus on physical

1:12

wellbeing is

1:14

the same tension on, on mental wellbeing

1:17

of athletes and referees.

1:20

Yeah , there is .

1:20

Um , a lot of the professional clubs have

1:23

their own psychologists and their own , um, departments

1:25

that deal with player welfare , uh,

1:27

within the professional game and match officials,

1:30

the PG MLL. Um, we've

1:32

just actually linked up with calm ourselves

1:34

and we also have a number of sports psychologists

1:37

that we can tap into and where they

1:39

do do a lot of work, especially at the training seminars

1:41

around mental health. Um,

1:43

and some of the signs , um , around sort

1:45

of nutrition and fitness that can affect mental

1:47

health. And especially being a referee. You

1:50

know, we get a lot of mystic

1:52

, um, sometimes on the pitch. Um,

1:54

and sometimes that you can take that home,

1:56

especially if you see yourself in the press and it's very negative

1:59

on, so that can affect you

2:01

and a bit like any job, isn't it really that , um,

2:03

any , uh, stress , um

2:05

, especially if it feels unfair and

2:07

, uh, you know , directed

2:10

badly can feel , uh, uh,

2:12

can feel stressful, can feel anxious

2:15

racing. So in terms of your, your yourself,

2:17

how do you deal with that if it feels like you've

2:19

had ,

2:21

uh, abuse or unfair

2:24

remarks? Uh , you that you , it's

2:27

quite difficult , um, to try

2:29

and manage it. You tend to walk off

2:31

a football field and just remember that you're in a uniform

2:33

and actually it's not directed at you personally. Um,

2:36

social media unfortunately is one of the things that

2:38

things are no longer just said they

2:40

linger because they're in text , they're on a screen and so you

2:43

can't just delete them , um, out of the

2:45

, out of your brain. Um, for me,

2:47

I try and , um, distress

2:49

bottle, bottle of red wine sometimes

2:52

helps, probably not the best solution. Um,

2:54

but talking to friends, typically talking to other

2:56

referees, try and understand

2:59

, um, what caused , uh

3:01

, that abuse potentially. Um , all the negativity

3:04

trying to improve yourself , um,

3:06

from, from that aspect. But it is the hardest

3:08

thing. You've got to park the decision

3:10

that you made, whether it be positive or negative

3:13

and you've got to move on. And it's just something that you learn over

3:15

time that once you've done your game,

3:17

you reflect, you review, look

3:19

to see if you can change anything or improve anything.

3:22

But ultimately you've got to move on because you've got

3:24

a game in two days time. And if it's still

3:26

lingering, what it doesn't make you do is make

3:28

more mistakes.

3:29

Yeah. Um, and uh,

3:31

you talked about social media and that's

3:33

something which people will often , um,

3:36

talk about. Uh, so

3:39

do you feel, does that amp that feels like

3:41

it amplifies and , and you think you use

3:43

the word linker ? So say a bit more about

3:45

that?

3:45

Yeah. Um, I think it amplifies

3:48

because , um, it's a bit

3:50

like what children used to say. That words

3:52

will never hurt me. We've gotten past that now

3:54

because actually it's written down.

3:56

It's on the screen. It's, it's available 24

3:58

hours a day. It can be shared instantly

4:01

with lots of other people, whereas before,

4:03

and if we were having a conversation in a room , um,

4:06

that is a conversation between two people and you can sort

4:08

of, you can get, get over it. Whereas

4:10

when it's on social media, it's there for all to see.

4:13

Other people want to comment. Um, and

4:15

I think we've seen a lot recently of

4:17

, um, some professional sporting , um,

4:20

people or celebrities where

4:22

their social media has become a negative

4:25

impact on their life. Um, you know,

4:27

somebody has always had an amazing days,

4:29

amazing holidays and I think that has a

4:31

detrimental impact. And people then start

4:33

to , um, falsely

4:36

project that everything's great

4:38

in their life and they're very clever and in how they

4:41

portray themselves. Um, and

4:43

we know pictures can be taken at

4:45

certain angles and , and sort of shown

4:47

to be this wonderful lifestyle. And I think other people

4:49

that look up to that and think, right, why

4:51

am I not having that? And it can have a detrimental

4:54

impact on other people.

4:55

Yeah. And I was just thinking when

4:57

you're talking about , um, uh, football

5:00

and the impact of, you know, people directing

5:02

abuse at you, we often obviously see

5:04

still racism in football

5:07

sadly, and homophobia

5:09

and, and other bits. And just

5:12

can you talk to us a bit about the impact of,

5:14

of that on, on players as you understand

5:17

it or on supporters? Actually,

5:19

cause of course we often think about the players,

5:21

but there is also the wider football

5:23

community around , uh,

5:26

you know , those who support those on the alternative teams.

5:28

Yeah, I think a sport unfortunately, and

5:30

I say sport predominantly football

5:32

is in very troubled times. I think there's

5:35

been an undercurrent in society

5:37

, um, all of racism that

5:39

has, hasn't come to bear

5:42

fruit as such. And I think only now that we're seeing

5:44

, um, from, from the media, from

5:46

games if people watched them actually is

5:48

a deep rooted , um, problems

5:51

within, within football. Um

5:53

, and I think it does impact on people because it makes you make

5:55

decisions as to whether you want to attend football or not.

5:57

It makes you think, are you good enough

6:00

to play? Are you good enough to referee because of your skin

6:02

color or your religion or your sexuality? And

6:04

I think clearly

6:07

football needs to do more. Um,

6:09

it is trying, I think there's a big battle

6:11

there around um, sort

6:13

of moral implications but also

6:16

actually a business implication and

6:18

they're trying to weigh up how do they tackle this

6:20

subject. Um, in a fair

6:23

but robust way. Um, it's

6:26

not going to be solved overnight . Um,

6:28

but I do think they need to do more and I think

6:30

their sanctions need to be , um,

6:32

more impactful and make

6:35

change within clubs, drive change

6:37

within leagues. Because if you don't get that,

6:39

what you will start doing is you will start to see supporters

6:42

drop away. People that don't necessarily

6:44

, um, represent , um,

6:47

what is shown on the field of play. Um,

6:49

the one good thing about football , um

6:51

, currently is if you look at these sort of [inaudible]

6:54

aspect of football actually is very diverse

6:56

and that's not always reflected in the , in the, in the

6:59

, in the stands. And so football has

7:01

got to ask it's itself, well , why

7:03

is that? Why doesn't the audience represent

7:05

, um , what you've got on the pitch,

7:07

but it clearly has a mental

7:10

impact when you read articles from

7:12

players from England and the decision

7:14

making process as to whether they walk off

7:16

the field of play, when they're , you know, when they're being

7:18

abused or , uh , by , uh

7:20

, racist comments. And that must linger

7:23

for a long, long time because

7:25

they're not being judged on their football skills. They're being judged

7:27

on the color of their skin and I think

7:29

that will have a massive impact on someone's

7:32

personal performance.

7:33

Yeah. Um , and obviously

7:35

you are , um , currently

7:37

the only out gay person

7:39

in , uh, in professional

7:41

football. Um, and

7:44

you know, whilst , uh, there have been,

7:46

you know , speculation about others, you are

7:48

currently, you know, the, the person flying,

7:51

flying the flag. Um , that

7:53

must've been a challenging decision. Well,

7:57

no, tell us a bit more about that and not going

7:59

to say it must've been a challenging decision. I'll let you , you

8:01

, you, you say whether it was a [inaudible] .

8:03

Yeah. Ultimately, I think when you open yourself

8:05

up to critic criticism or you open

8:08

your life up and allows people to comment, and

8:10

this is where we talk about social media. If I was

8:12

to tell a couple of friends, okay, they may

8:14

tell a couple of people who tell a couple of people, whereas

8:16

when you do it in an era where there is

8:18

social media , um, around

8:21

that news travels all across the world. My

8:23

main reason for doing it was a

8:26

couple of seasons back when I was demoted in football, I wasn't

8:28

enjoying football. I wasn't enjoying my personal

8:30

life. I contemplated whether my

8:32

personal life , um, hampered

8:36

my football or whether football was hampering

8:38

my personal life. I'd often like to spend time

8:40

with my friends on a special on a

8:42

weekend. But actually my weekends were predominantly

8:45

taken up with football. And so

8:47

my own field performance wasn't great and

8:49

I got fairly demoted. Um, and

8:52

sort of, I then had to decide whether I

8:54

wanted to continue football or not. And I

8:56

decided I did. And so from

8:58

that I sort of had to sort of dig

9:00

deep. I had to accept

9:03

what I was willing to sacrifice and what I wasn't

9:05

willing to sacrifice and try and have

9:07

a fair balance. Um, worked

9:09

really hard, got promoted back

9:11

to the level I was , um, after

9:14

two seasons. And

9:17

then when that happened, an

9:19

opportunity arose through John

9:21

Holmes at sky sports , um,

9:24

around telling your story.

9:26

And so I approached John and said, look, a

9:28

referee in semiprofessional football,

9:31

I'm a fourth official in professional football at the time.

9:34

Um, and I just happened to be gay and

9:36

actually I've seen the work that rainbow laces is doing

9:38

through and I think it

9:40

needs, it needs a voice. And

9:43

I don't want to be going back in the closet. I want

9:45

to be able to be my whole self. Um,

9:47

I want to be authentic. Um,

9:50

and me and John sat down and

9:53

we penned a , a , um

9:55

, article which took a

9:57

couple of months. We involved a lots of different bodies in

10:00

that. And then the article

10:02

went live in 10th

10:05

of August, 2017 and the rest is history really.

10:08

Um, but what it has seen and I've seen

10:10

is that I'm a different person on the field

10:12

of play. I take my whole self into

10:15

a game. Um, I'm not

10:17

afraid or shy anymore of being

10:19

who I want to be on the field of play. My

10:21

relationship with footballers is improved as

10:24

far as management. Um, and

10:27

I can accept myself in football.

10:30

And what I've seen of

10:32

that is my own performance improve. And

10:34

then as of the

10:37

end of last season , um, I got promoted to , to

10:39

where I am now , um, which

10:41

is in the professional leagues. So

10:43

there's a direct correlation there with being

10:45

authentic and being yourself and that

10:47

comes from um, the sort of

10:49

mental stability that you have yourself,

10:52

the physical stability and have a fair

10:54

balance. Um, and that

10:56

was where I didn't want to get back to, I didn't want to be in that dark

10:58

place of not enjoying football because

11:01

I felt I couldn't be who

11:03

I was outside of football. And that impact

11:05

of lying to family and

11:07

friends live in a double life in some

11:09

ways, not remembering what you've told person

11:12

sort of two months ago, to then see

11:14

them again at football and then have to think, Oh,

11:16

what did I say and what can I say? Often

11:18

I would change where I was

11:20

going on a Saturday night to okay,

11:22

what's near Soho? Um, cause that would be

11:24

classed as gay. I would say I'm going to

11:27

Covent garden or I'm going to Chelsea. And

11:29

it's remembering those lies that really

11:31

impact on you. And once you start building

11:33

on top of that, it gets really difficult to

11:35

sort of unravel it and unpack it. And

11:38

you talked about digging deep

11:40

and I know that, you know, when

11:43

people do

11:45

things for the first time or you

11:47

know , all the hundredth person that's done it , whatever

11:49

it is, if something feels big

11:51

to you, that, that mental

11:54

capacity to , um, to

11:56

develop the confidence to stand

11:58

forwards, you know , what, what would you learn from

12:00

that if you, if you were either

12:04

talking to somebody else who was saying,

12:06

I won't , I want to be brave enough

12:08

to make those decisions. What would you, what did you

12:10

learn from your experience of doing that?

12:13

Um, I think resilience is, is one of the key

12:15

elements there. Um, and one of the, one

12:17

of the things that I found helpful was to write

12:20

down the positives,

12:22

the neutrals and the negatives and, and, and

12:25

actually look at it on paper and move

12:27

things about , um, cause you can put it

12:29

in your head and you can think about it and where

12:31

you're going to put it. Um, if

12:33

you can see it as in visualize it,

12:36

you, you , you, I found that I

12:38

, things would move because actually I was

12:41

, um , too afraid or I was nervous

12:43

or , um , I didn't have that resilience. Whereas

12:45

when I wrote it down and I looked at the

12:48

positives and negatives and the neutrals, what I found is actually

12:50

there was more positives , um,

12:53

in coming out and being who I

12:56

wanted to be, but also having a good,

12:58

strong support network. And that support network

13:00

can be a friend , um, and

13:02

bounce things off people. Um , and

13:04

that's what I found the most useful. And I think everybody's

13:06

got that inner strength to

13:09

do that. It just needs nurturing.

13:11

And I think friends, family can be

13:13

a very good way of nurturing and once,

13:16

once you're comfortable or you're happy in your

13:18

own personal life, that's the , that's

13:20

the rock that you need. If you're not happy

13:22

in your personal life and you make a decision

13:25

to do something which you find to be , um,

13:28

quite stressful or it's going to be a big occasion.

13:30

If you're already wobbling because

13:33

of personal matters , um , or you haven't accepted

13:35

things, then ultimately things

13:38

could topple. So for me it was really

13:40

important to have a strong basis and then build

13:42

on top of that a bit like building blocks. Really.

13:44

Yeah. And do you talk

13:46

to 'em recently? Uh

13:48

, there was the speculation wasn't there that

13:50

a, another footballer was going

13:53

to come out as gay,

13:55

I think. Uh , and there was quite

13:57

a lot of anger from some when

14:00

the person , uh, he, they,

14:02

she uh, yeah , didn't

14:05

um, uh, come out. I

14:07

guess just what now you're on the other

14:09

side. Yeah . Be

14:12

interested in, in your thoughts

14:15

about how to help

14:17

people in whatever circumstances

14:19

in whatever closet, whether

14:21

it's sexuality, whether that's um,

14:24

you know, wanting to move countries

14:26

or you know , whatever it is, what you would

14:28

be saying to people who are just trying to take

14:30

that first step to even

14:32

write down the pros and the cons.

14:36

Difficult question. Um, I

14:40

think you've got to want to do it for yourself ultimately.

14:44

Um, and you've got to remember what the end goal is. Um,

14:47

some things will happen overnight and some things will

14:49

take a lot longer to come into fruition.

14:52

Um, and I think for me the

14:56

key strap line that I've always said

14:59

to people is that everything will be okay in

15:01

the end and it will be. And

15:03

ultimately if the end goal isn't in

15:06

reach at the moment, it will be.

15:09

Um, I think some people want quick fixes.

15:12

Um, and then I think some people , um,

15:14

are quite happy to take the journey , um

15:17

, that they lead. But I think it's crucially

15:19

important to, to do

15:21

your own research. What does it mean to

15:23

you ? You know , what is the benefits of doing what

15:25

you're doing? Um, if

15:27

I look at , um, people that could

15:30

be LGBT within the professional game, I

15:32

think there are lots of pros and as there are lots of cons

15:34

and that's both from the individual's point of view, but

15:36

from the organization's point of view , um,

15:39

there's this big stigma around , um,

15:41

players who , who come out would

15:44

be homophobic and be abused

15:46

at grounds. I personally don't believe that.

15:48

I think a big impact

15:50

, um, in a football are deciding whether

15:52

they want to identify as LGBT or

15:55

whether they want to publicly coming out and announce

15:57

what religion they are is

15:59

, um, when a footballer

16:01

has their career in the United Kingdom, when

16:04

they probably get to mid

16:07

twenties, early thirties, other opportunities

16:10

potentially come up, whether that be an America and the

16:12

MLS or whether it be in the

16:14

middle East or in Asia. Now, as we know,

16:16

we're quite lucky here in, in, in the Western

16:18

continents where , um, LGBT

16:22

race, religion , um,

16:24

you know , we're moving in the right direction as far as acceptance

16:27

and diversity inclusion where some other

16:29

countries are nowhere near where we are. So

16:32

ultimately by that person declaring who they

16:34

are , um, could limit

16:36

, um , the potential for future moves.

16:38

And what we've got to remember is footballers are

16:42

their legs, you know, that skill is

16:44

that commodity that is their business. Um,

16:47

and that's what they rely on for their income, for their family.

16:50

Um, so there's a lot of decisions

16:52

there for people to decide

16:55

, um, where they want

16:57

to go in their life. And I think the

16:59

second thing is it's

17:01

very daunting to be the first at something.

17:04

Um , and unfortunate we had the incident

17:07

with Justin fashioning, who obviously

17:09

was a BA AME and then

17:11

he came out as gay and

17:14

then unfortunately committed suicide. Um,

17:16

and as an , it was a snowball effect really. When

17:18

you read back through , um, some of

17:20

the things that happened to him, you could just see,

17:23

you know , I hope now that

17:25

actually there would be support structures

17:27

in place for somebody who decided that

17:30

they wanted to , to come out. Um , within

17:32

the game.

17:33

Um , you just use the term committed suicide.

17:36

And more recently

17:38

people are now

17:40

I've stopped using the term committed suicide

17:42

because it's not a criminal act. And using the

17:45

term died by suicide. Were

17:47

you aware that that had , that was

17:49

taking place?

17:51

I've never been picked up. Even on sky. We've , we've

17:53

said he committed suicide and I

17:55

didn't realize that. [inaudible] eh , that's

17:57

a prime example there wasn't it of how, even

18:00

within my own business, I will

18:02

probably take that back to LER now and say, actually

18:04

we cannot load longer be saying we've

18:06

had a deputy, we will say someone's had a

18:08

fatality. Um , we think it's a slightly softer

18:10

word to use. Um, but I was pretty

18:12

interested in some of that . I will , I can take back to the railways.

18:15

Yeah. And of course the, the

18:17

issue around the committees is , is, is stigmatizing.

18:20

And equally , um,

18:22

some people think saying a fatality

18:25

actually is not , uh

18:27

, yeah , there can be lots of reasons that their fatalities

18:29

on the track. Suicide being one of

18:31

those. So that whole sense around language

18:34

, um, reinforcing stigma

18:36

or bringing issues into the open.

18:39

Um, and obviously one of the language

18:42

is really important around stigma but also role

18:44

models. And one of the things which has happened

18:46

recently in football is that some people

18:49

are coming out and saying, yeah, I experienced

18:51

mental health problems

18:53

or mental illness. Uh,

18:56

yeah. Has that made an impact in the, in

18:58

, in the football community that you've seen?

19:00

Yeah, most definitely. Um , players don't

19:02

often come forward and disclose

19:05

personal information. Uh, one of the things

19:07

I always talk about , um, when we talk about LGBT

19:10

is that why would somebody come out who

19:12

is LGBT when we don't know anything about

19:15

football or, so for people to start sharing intimate

19:17

facts about mental health is really, really

19:19

positive. And what that does is it allows

19:21

younger people to

19:23

, um , identify with their role models

19:26

, um, in a more natural and human

19:28

way because, you know, they

19:30

are under a lot of pressure. Footballers are,

19:33

are , they are, you know, and it's not just

19:35

the aspect of playing the game,

19:38

it's not just the aspect of training, but actually

19:40

there's a lot of things that come with being a footballer . You've

19:42

got the social media interaction,

19:44

you've got the , um, the

19:47

, the, the pressure sometimes of being a role model

19:50

and being looked up to by, you know,

19:52

sometimes millions of people worldwide

19:54

, um , because of your skill. Um

19:56

, if you're not playing that well at the time,

19:59

you know, what you can see is that positivity

20:01

from fans turn into

20:03

negativity , um, some

20:05

of the aspects around their own financial positions

20:08

about how they handle money and how that impacts

20:10

on their family relations and friends. So

20:13

it's really positive to see that footballers

20:15

are publicly , um,

20:18

coming out and saying that they have

20:21

suffered or are suffering and some of the things

20:23

that they've done to try and , um,

20:26

resolve that within their lives. Or,

20:28

or some of the work that they've done with charities

20:31

to try and look at how they can improve , um,

20:34

sort of that mental stability for them.

20:36

And interestingly is as you were talking

20:38

then, I was just thinking, I wonder if

20:41

most people listening to this will

20:44

be falling into that age old trap of

20:46

thinking about footballers and thinking about

20:48

men and you

20:50

know , of course we've seen much more public profiling

20:53

of, of women's football and

20:55

women's sport more generally , um, in,

20:57

in recent times. Just be interested. Has that

20:59

sort of , um, uh, has

21:02

that shifted any of the dynamics in the

21:04

willingness to talk about , uh,

21:06

mental health or emotions

21:09

or feelings if you're , if we were

21:11

to stereotype, of course , say you know

21:13

, that men often often don't and women find

21:15

it easier to do so do you think

21:18

that has all might shift some of the dynamics

21:20

around mental health and football?

21:22

Yeah, I think , um, I think there's

21:24

a direct correlation there. Um,

21:27

the only statistic that I can sort of think about is

21:29

that there are , um,

21:31

a lot more openly LGBT

21:33

players playing in women's football.

21:37

Um, and that's not something to be snared actually

21:39

that's something to say, well why is it different?

21:41

Why is it more acceptable within the women's game? Um,

21:44

you know, we've got the women's super league now , um,

21:47

within , um, United

21:49

Kingdom, which is, you know, the following of

21:51

that, it's been astronomical. We've

21:53

had the women's world cup, which , um,

21:56

you know, for seasons before years before

21:58

wasn't followed. And this year, you know,

22:00

the sort of the hype around the women's game. So

22:02

I think it will start to open doors.

22:05

I think it will start to break down barriers and

22:07

both legs will start to leak

22:10

into each other and they'll learn things from each other. And

22:12

I think that's one of the most important things. How

22:15

the women's game or how the men's game

22:17

, um, can learn from

22:19

each other. And if they take that , uh,

22:22

then hopefully we'll see some improvements. You

22:25

talked earlier

22:26

about , um , that principle

22:29

, I guess, of taking your whole self to work

22:31

and thinking about your day job. Um,

22:36

yeah . Do do you think that sort of,

22:38

do you from your experiences as senior managers

22:40

still see that principle of people

22:42

flourishing as they're able to, to

22:45

be their wholesales, that at work,

22:47

I'm over that wholesale field ?

22:48

Most definitely. I think , um, to have a diverse

22:51

workforce allows for creative

22:53

thinking. Um , and the fact that people

22:55

can bring them home , their wholesales to work,

22:58

you know, when you've got issues or when you've got problem

23:00

solving, actually having a diverse workforce

23:03

will ultimately throw up different solutions

23:05

rather than , um, a solution that typically

23:08

the workforce has gone down. So ultimately,

23:10

yes, it is important to have

23:12

diversity. Yes, it is important to be

23:14

yourself. And what that also does is it

23:16

allows for conversation to start. Um,

23:19

typically you, you go to a lot of work events

23:21

and you will see similar people

23:23

huddled together at conferences

23:25

or if the , if there's a social event,

23:28

and I always wonder why people who are

23:30

different and we're all different from each other. Don't

23:32

seek out difference because for me, it's

23:35

the only way to grow your mind is the only way to grow

23:37

yourself. I love to travel. And I think

23:39

it's something that allows me to grow, meet new

23:41

cultures, meet new people , um,

23:44

embrace difference,

23:47

understand difference. I think

23:49

, um , we're very lucky again,

23:51

you know , in the United Kingdom where, you know, w

23:53

we're massively ahead in technology.

23:56

Uh , typically people stand to live in is

23:58

very good. Um, but

24:00

we often forget about other areas of the , of

24:02

the globe that haven't got those resources

24:05

and why people, I always questioned why people

24:07

don't seek out to , to

24:10

enrich their lives by seeing

24:12

something slightly different and having a different perspective

24:14

on, on aspects of , uh

24:16

, aspects of, of the world really

24:19

and , and their life. And I think it does put your life into

24:21

perspective when you get to meet different

24:24

people. Um, because if you don't,

24:26

you're always going to be on that same train track , uh

24:29

, on the same line throughout your whole life

24:31

and you'll never sort of diverged off

24:33

it. And that's a great shame. [inaudible]

24:36

trained . Yeah. Good bait, good

24:38

bait. Um , you

24:41

talked earlier

24:41

about , um, uh,

24:44

hope , uh, you know , don't think you

24:47

used the words , uh , hope, but you,

24:49

yeah . As, as you were talking, thinking about , um,

24:52

yeah , the, the, the future and

24:55

your hope for the future is, is

24:57

a really , um , key bit . So want

24:59

to just sort of, if you were to think about

25:02

, um, mental health about supporting

25:04

people's wellbeing , uh, about

25:07

different workplaces with your , your sort

25:09

of straddled across that sort of more office space

25:11

and you know, the, the , the football field,

25:13

what would you, what would you hope,

25:15

if you were to think about wellbeing, mental

25:17

health in the next three to five years in different

25:20

workplaces, what would you hope?

25:22

I think it's for companies to understand

25:26

and truly understand some of the root

25:28

causes of mental health. Um, a

25:30

lot of the time , um, workplaces

25:33

are not accommodating to individuals.

25:36

And I think that is one of the key

25:38

elements for me that can

25:40

be a big cause of , of mental health.

25:43

Everybody has their own personal lives, they have a lot of things

25:45

going on. And it's

25:47

only now that we're seeing workplaces

25:49

really support , um, flexible

25:52

working , uh, working from home, working from a different

25:54

location where it's typically in Britain.

25:57

Uh, especially it's been very much

25:59

if you're not in the office, where are you? What

26:01

are you doing? And I think that causes

26:03

issues in itself. So for me, it's

26:06

businesses looking at the root causes

26:08

of mental health and identifying in

26:10

their own structures or within their own

26:12

sectors. What causes that?

26:15

Because if you don't get to the root calls, you're

26:17

never going to understand the underlying

26:19

causes and you never actually going to deal with it. So,

26:22

but the hope for me in the

26:24

next couple of years would be , um, for businesses

26:27

to link up with charities

26:29

, um, except that

26:32

you don't know what you don't know. Um,

26:35

and actually talk to the experts and

26:37

listen to the advice that is being given. So

26:39

if you're asking for , um , charities

26:41

or organizations to come in and

26:44

look at how well you , um,

26:46

manage mental health to actually

26:48

really take, take on the feedback and make

26:50

fundamental changes rather than

26:52

doing it to tick a box. Um,

26:54

and that would be my hope within the

26:57

next couple of years for that.

26:58

Fantastic. And the other bit , which

27:00

I've just be really interested that obviously there

27:03

were times when it was , um, that

27:05

journey was difficult from sitting down with John

27:07

Holmes and you said you got support from, from families and friends

27:10

and we talk a lot here

27:12

at MFA and Glenda about the importance of,

27:14

of self care and uh,

27:16

people , um , some

27:19

people know , understand

27:22

and apply the principles and the

27:24

practices. But essentially how do you look after

27:26

yourself, replenish yourself, give your

27:28

brain a rest or those sorts of things.

27:31

What, what would you do , um,

27:33

in order to keep yourself well

27:36

and were there any extra things that you

27:38

would do in , in , in difficult times

27:40

to sort of really try and bolster

27:43

yourself and to , to look after yourself?

27:46

I like to, one of the things I like

27:48

to do is to travel. And I think people

27:51

having something to look forward to is

27:53

a massive stimulus. And it is that,

27:55

it is for me personally. So I

27:57

love to travel. And so for me, you know,

27:59

already thinking about next year, what holidays

28:01

am I going to look to book? Where am I going

28:04

to go with friends? And for me that is a massive

28:06

stimuli for myself to think actually

28:09

to break the year into blocks. For me Christmas

28:12

is coming. I know for a lot of people Christmas

28:14

is , is not a good time for them. For

28:17

me, my birthday is five days before

28:19

Christmas. And so Christmas

28:21

has always been very special for me. The whole of December.

28:24

Um, I love Christmas, absolutely love it. And

28:27

there's elements of the calendar year that I actually

28:30

really enjoy. So I try to map

28:32

my year out around that and

28:34

there are going to be lows. They're going to be lows around

28:36

, um, you know, personal welfare

28:38

issues. If it's a loss of a family member, loss

28:40

of a friend, relationship breakups

28:43

, um, whether it be stress

28:45

within work because of workload , um,

28:48

and trying to manage , um, not

28:50

only work within Alinea but also

28:52

on the football pitch. My own personal

28:55

performance within football.

28:57

Um, you know, we strive to do our best

29:00

in a game of football, but naturally,

29:02

you know, making approximately, I think it's something

29:05

like 250 to 280 decisions.

29:07

And again , you know, you're gonna get some

29:09

wrong. You just hope it's not the big decisions,

29:11

but sometimes you can have a really bad

29:14

run of luck. Um, and

29:17

you don't want that. So you've got to look

29:19

at how you are as a person.

29:21

But for me, the key element is

29:24

to, I like to plan, I

29:26

like to, things to look forward to. Um

29:28

, I like to talk to friends, I like to spend time with friends.

29:31

Socializing for me is really important and

29:33

I think when you listen to friends , um,

29:35

and this is good friends, you work

29:37

out that actually some of your issues are not dissimilar

29:40

to others. There may be slightly, slightly

29:43

different in , in the approach or the problem,

29:45

but fundamentally they're the same. And

29:47

I think listening to your close

29:50

friends is really important for me.

29:52

Mm , absolutely. Um, a

29:54

couple of people have , um, connecting

29:57

ranch who, you know, who talked about

29:59

, um, kind set.

30:02

And so yeah , we need to shift our mindset

30:04

into a place of kind set and really

30:06

try to carry

30:09

that principle of kindness , um

30:11

, into , uh, our everyday

30:13

, uh , lives. If we're going to

30:16

, um, be able to

30:19

really, really foster each other's wellbeing

30:21

and that sense of, of collective

30:23

, um , wellbeing. It's just be interested

30:25

in, you know, we don't often talk about kindness,

30:28

we interested in your take on what

30:30

it means, but how could we take

30:32

that into the rest of the day to day lives

30:35

to improve wellbeing?

30:37

Um, I think we all have kindness within

30:39

us , um, but I don't

30:41

always think is at the forefront of

30:43

, um, everybody's day to day thinking process.

30:46

And so for me, if everybody just gave that extra

30:49

1% , um , actually the

30:51

world would be a better place. I know Raj does speak

30:53

about dr Andre, I should say, does speak

30:55

about , um , kindness and he speaks, it,

30:58

speaks about it in a very positive manner and

31:00

he's right. You know, for him working

31:03

in a very stressful environment, working within

31:05

the NHS, he must see

31:07

a lot of different scenarios taking place.

31:10

But for me, kindness

31:12

ultimately has got to be something

31:15

that you don't, that you don't learn when

31:17

you're born. You're born with kindness and

31:19

it's not something that people can use an excuse to say that they

31:21

never knew about it. So

31:23

for me it's, it's unearthing

31:26

that and putting it to the forefront sometimes of

31:28

our minds. And if you

31:30

can, if everybody can apply that little bit of kindness,

31:33

surely the world would be a lot better place

31:35

for it.

31:37

It certainly would in my opinion. So

31:39

on that note, I'm going to ask you one

31:41

last question. As we are fast

31:43

approaching the

31:46

Christmas season and uh , you will inevitably

31:48

at some point be , um, doing

31:51

a bit of dancing. So what

31:54

would be your favorite song

31:56

to see in the

31:58

new year? Um , and why?

32:01

Ooh, that's difficult. That

32:04

is really difficult.

32:05

It doesn't have to be true. You can just, yeah

32:07

, think hard .

32:08

I always think whenever, I think if I think about

32:10

the last couple of years for new years , I've

32:12

certainly changed what I've done. So

32:15

when I was , um , slightly younger,

32:17

I would've been in a club or been a party

32:20

with a couple of friends. Um,

32:22

I would have seen new year's in. And

32:24

then the last couple of years I've

32:27

actually done it either a house party

32:29

or um, or , uh, close

32:31

friends and family. I'd

32:34

actually, it's been

32:36

better that actually it's just

32:38

been close friends, close family and

32:41

I like, I like the song , um , all anxiety

32:43

, you know, for me, I think it's a great song.

32:45

If you listen to the lyrics and everybody know

32:47

what it's about and you sort of, it's that song

32:49

that you sing and you know, they play it on

32:52

the telly and big Ben chimes

32:54

. You know, if you're in London and

32:57

you sort of, if you want to, you

32:59

can delete all the negativity

33:01

that's taken place in

33:03

the past year. And

33:06

it's an you've got a new, yeah

33:08

, you've got a new map to

33:10

sort of , um, look at. You've got

33:13

a new ship to sail course and if

33:15

you can think like that, then ultimately

33:18

, um, that year could

33:20

potentially be better. So yeah, I like old

33:22

Lang zone for me.

33:23

Excellent. That's not the answer that I thought you thought

33:26

you would tease me something a poppy.

33:28

But you know, I mean

33:30

if it is probably , I mean it could be something like , um,

33:33

a little bit. That one John, I do like that.

33:35

No one rocket man.

33:37

Brilliant. Ryan, thanks very much talking to

33:39

me. No , thank you very much. I haven't made

33:44

[inaudible]

33:44

thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

33:47

I was struck listening to Ryan about

33:50

the importance of courage, the importance of

33:52

authenticity and being true to yourself

33:54

as an absolute fundamental pillar for wellbeing.

33:57

Continue to be delighted by the number of

33:59

people that are listening to the podcast that subscribing

34:01

to us and leaving us reviews. Uh

34:04

, so just another shout out

34:06

this review from Twitter, from

34:09

Debbie Menem . Thank you for this. Having spent

34:11

the last 18 months just about coping

34:13

after the sudden unexpected loss of my lovely

34:15

mum. This resonated with me. Happy

34:18

to say I can see that light at the end of the

34:20

tunnel. Now I can quote him the sad

34:22

thoughts a bit. I hope you enjoyed our conversation.

34:26

I'm Simon Blake. Thanks for coping with

34:28

it.