0:00

Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of office, Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Mel Bright, the director of Studio Bright, a Melbourne based practice known for creating enduring and responsive architecture for people and place. In this episode, Mel and I discussed how she's translated her background in civic projects into the studio's residential work and the importance of investing in big ideas even for small projects.

0:53

We talked about the small steps she's taken towards different project typologies, such as social housing and how she strategically over invests in projects that she thinks have the most potential to lead to similar projects. We talked about the importance of creating a healthy and strong workplace environment and the positive impact that this has had on staff retention, morale, and culture within her studio. We looked at the evolution of her Instagram account from the early days of posting more personal photographs to her thinking around sticking with 1 architectural photographer exclusively. And finally, we talked about what work life balance means to Mel and how it's changed since her children have grown up and the fulcrum has shifted. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Mel Bright from Studio Bright.

1:40

Mel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

1:42

Thanks, Dave, great to be here.

1:44

Thank you. So, maybe good to start with a little bit of a background on the studio. Do you want to just walk us through when did the practice start and kind of what that journey has looked like?

1:52

Well, started you sort of didn't know I didn't know what it was gonna be when I started. And really the beginning was with sort of other people thinking we were just gonna do some a few little bathroom kitchen renovations of our own under an umbrella company and share a space. So, maybe I wasn't ambitious enough back then, but I was just more thinking about how to just, you know, have a break from what I you know, from working for other people, and it seemed like a really nice, flexible thing to do. And, really, it's I didn't know what it would be until it was started. So for me, the sort of process has been, you know, really evolved over time, and and in some ways, what it involved was just trying to make each project a little bit better than the last.

2:43

And, you know, the thing I often talk about in the early days was architecture years, you know, a bit like cat years. It's like, you know, they're it's based on how long a project takes. So, you know, each project was 2 or 3 years, so you really didn't move to the next project until you'd done something good on that last little kitchen reno. So sometimes I felt like after 9 years of plugging away, I'm like, it's just 3 architecture years because it's just 3 lots of projects. Yeah.

3:11

How did the first couple of 3 year cycles go for you and the practice?

3:15

It was initially, you know, with other people, and we were sort of doing our own work and stuff like that. And I think, fine. But it was really, you know, kitchens and bathrooms. So it was it was a big kind of jump to then go, oh, wow. We've got a you know, something on the back on the back of a house.

3:33

And then and then because my background before Make and now Studio Bright, we we started as being called Make. I, I really had mostly done large public sort of city making projects, so it was quite odd to go and start designing, you know, houses after after that's what I'd sort of spent a lot of my time doing not doing, really. And so for me, a lot of the it was quite exciting when we got a house that had a little bit of street frontage, because mostly you get alts and ads, and they're out the back. No one ever sees them. And so there was a sort of exciting moment when we got that little brick studio, which was basically a garage, but I'm like, oh, this is a public building, you know, which of course it wasn't, but, you know, it was the beginning of of trying to make small civic projects.

4:22

So the practice kind of evolved by, you know, investing in these larger ideas in quite small projects from very early on, and and just you know? I don't know. I reckon it's really hard. I I see other practices start now, and they've got a really polished website, and they've got a you know, it's like they are here to do Yeah. Like, really top quality architecture, and I don't feel like I sort of started like that.

4:51

But maybe it's just the next generation. It's, like, so so finished before when they've when they've already begun. Whereas we actually, I went through 2 kids and the GFC. And so in one way, my first child was born. The GFC hit, and I'm like, this is actually fantastic because I wasn't quite sure how I was gonna have, you know, a new baby and manage the business.

5:15

So I sat at home and thought, I'm gonna learn how to do a website. So I taught myself you know how I used to code? I I always got really into it and taught myself how to code and made a website.

5:26

And those were kind of the early days of Instagram as well. Not to sort of steer us towards Instagram too quickly, but it kinda happened around that time, right, like, 2,009, 10, or 11, like, like, that was sort of the time and you were kind of quick onto it, hey?

5:39

I don't know if I was quick. I I kind of, I think that I really liked the filters, you know, like, everyone back then because they because they made that, you know, they were good for, sort of photo editing. And I think maybe the reason I was reasonably quick was I'd used it a little bit, but not for business. I just was probably posting a few kid pictures, honestly, Dave. But then I got to go on the Dulac study tour, and that probably, if you go through my back file of Instagram, maybe I should edit all that old stuff out.

6:09

You can see the heavy filter use.

6:12

Starting the practice, and you've coming from doing this kind of civic scale work and then working on these quite small project, kitchens and bathrooms, and then it's gradually getting bigger and bigger and then starting to get that straight frontage and everything. At that stage, were you thinking ahead to we wanna be doing sort of civic scale stuff at some point in the future? Look, did you have a kind of a timeline in mind, or was it, well, let's just do what we do and let each project evolve from the next?

6:36

Actually, I had no idea. I really started, and I've my career's been a little bit like that too. I've I really, maybe I should have a plan. I'm trying to have a bit more of a plan with the business, but but I'd I'd never really started out with a sort of some major plan or agenda, but I tried with every single thing I did just to have to do a good job of the thing that was in front of me. And I think that by sort of natural attrition, the things that I was better at or more interested in, I just kept following that path.

7:07

And maybe those things bubble I believe they kind of bubble to the top. The one thing I knew I wasn't that keen on doing was I was really from seeing a lot of my friends, and students and that sort of culture in architecture. I was really a bit anti the whole competition cycle. I was, you know, I think I'd sort of worked in practices where it just it just felt sort of, oh, you know, a crime, the amount of work people were pouring into projects that were never gonna be built and things like that. And so often the way you start to get those larger public projects is either a competition, or you have to have done it before.

7:47

So I really had no idea how one would get that work, and and so I didn't really, think that that would be possible. And mostly, I used to think, oh, maybe one day, someone will let me do a public toilet. You know? That was my greatest ambition. Still sort of is, actually.

8:05

I still think someone should let me do a public toilet.

8:08

Go on. It's a good idea.

8:10

Why not? Sydney's doing a lot of them. Yeah. I'd love to have a crack.

8:14

I mean, I always ask this question of, like, did you have a plan? Did you have a vision? And the answer is always no. So I don't know why I ask every episode. It always ends up the same place because

8:22

but if Some people have vision. I feel like I can totally, you know

8:26

Some do, but I I think there's a general sense of you don't know. It takes a while for things to like, that's to sort of figure out where you're kinda heading with things. Right? And I feel like in those early years, you're just trying to sort of stabilize stuff and kind of get a feel for it and and get used to running a business and, you know,

8:41

all that stuff. And and learning. Like, I felt like I spent all this time just learning, and we'd I'd never built a brick building. I'd never built a, you know so it was even learning about materials, learning about, you know, problems with on-site. It it all it it was literally just a kind of, trying to gather experience and and learn and not get myself into too much trouble, really.

9:07

Not rush, I guess, as well, and be sort of overpromise on what you're actually kind of, are doing. Yeah. I feel like that's also a challenge, isn't it? You wanna kinda go quickly, but you kinda have to go slowly because it's a slow sort of business.

9:19

Well, it's a fine balance as well, isn't it, with, with, you know, promising more than you can actually deliver. But the funny thing I used to often say is that I you know, people will go, you're such a it's a small practice, Mel. It's only just you and a couple of other people. And I'm like, yeah. But, you know, I really believe that some of the best architects are out there having a go on their own.

9:41

And I've built hotels. I've built towers in China. You know, I'd I've got this, but so I honestly felt like I could do more than I was being asked to do, and and so it wasn't a kind of you know, I know there's a faking it till you make it idea, but I still felt like I'd I'd you know, I had done a few things before starting. I just couldn't show anyone that I'd done them.

10:06

It's kind of a frustrating thing, isn't it? Because, like, particularly working on that larger scale stuff previously and knowing kind of the size of projects you've been doing, and particularly when you're looking at public projects and we're talking about the toilet block or the small classroom thing, and you're going, come on, I've done. I've got I've got experience working on all sorts of things at different scales. I

10:25

mean, I'm sure people have talked to you about that before. It's, like, a really interesting Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do you break into those new projects or the prod you you know, like, a new typology. And and and I I do I do have some plans for some of those things.

10:41

So I think sometimes, Dave, I've kind of but it's really slow burn, and I think that you've, even my team who come here and go, oh, Mel, I really wish we would do more of this kind of work. I'm like, I'm on it. But it's like, you know, you've gotta have patience because it's for example, we sort of went, oh, maybe if I wanted to start doing more public work. So we sort of and I would really knew that a lot of my team and I wanted to do more social housing work. So, you know, it's kinda like looking for those little opportunities that where we could maybe show that we could do it.

11:16

So we did a tiny little fit out at Melbourne Uni. We did, you know, these little things to say, hey. We can do this kind of project, or the I did a we did that women's property initiative project, which is partially, pro bono. And we did I did actually, in the early days, we did a pro bono project for a bird hide because and in my opinion at the time, I'm like, I'd rather spend my time doing pro bono community work than a competition because at least someone's gonna get value out of that, and maybe I get a built project. And and you you probably spend less time, honestly.

11:53

So I thought, well so we did we did quite a few little things like that on the side where I was off plugging away.

12:05

Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. Striking the right balance between your business goals and the long term integrity of your brand starts with a comprehensive and considered marketing strategy. At Office Dave Sharp, we work exclusively with architectural practices to provide you with a deeper understanding of your brand and an in-depth strategy that brings your practice ambitions to life. Through the creation of a bespoke 12 month marketing plan, we develop a complete understanding of your business and identify areas for elevation and improvement, from your media strategy and brand identity to your messaging project imagery and beyond. With a long standing background in architecture, strategy, and marketing, we use tested methodologies and measurable approaches to help you better navigate the path forward.

12:50

To learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. It seems like the options that people explore are competitions do crop up, but it feels like partnerships with larger practices seems to be, like, the go to kind of path. That sounds like a pretty common response we get. Pro bono is actually surprisingly uncommon even though I think it's very, very effective and powerful. Yeah.

13:21

Really nice thing to do as well.

13:23

Yeah. Like, I think, you know, it's it's almost like sort of trying to do the projects that you wanna do. And I know that no one wants to work for free, but I think that there's, you know, there's there's things out there where we could be giving back, a bit. And, obviously, we don't wanna undervalue our services because there's there's real challenges with pro bono work too because it's, you know, easy when someone's not paying you to kind of, you know, just get you to do whatever. You're like, you know.

13:48

But but I think that, yeah, that is an option. It it it when I started out, it wasn't as much or maybe I just didn't know about it, but certainly that idea of collaborating with bigger practices, that's pretty new from my perspective, I don't think that's been it's really, you know, a lot more common these days. So we we sort of, didn't our opportunity in Sydney wasn't via that method. It was via a sort of slightly different method.

14:21

What was the slightly different method? Sorry.

14:23

The Sydney project that we did, which is Key Quarter, in some ways, that evolved by we designed and documented we were in a team, and it was a collaboration, but we all did our own buildings for that project. So it it was, I believe, a method of more supported by the city of Sydney trying to get emerging practices to deliver design and deliver their own buildings to get that sort of level of diversity in the city. So even that project, STAB certainly were the they coordinated the town planning, and they coordinated the basements and things like that, but but Sylvester Fuller and and we did our own buildings in that. So it was a kind of it's a different collaboration model where we worked alongside each other. Whereas there's quite a few other projects like we're working at the minute where, there's an executive architect, and we, doing we're sort of within that, but the Key Quarter project was a different

15:26

arrangement. Model, it's kind of this, like, village concept where each architect has a different building in a kind of a master plan. Right? That is the sort of the idea.

15:34

Yes. I really think Sydney have been pushing that Yeah. A lot, and that's it's probably, in my opinion, coming down to Melbourne because of that. Certainly, I've said to quite a few people, we we've been getting way more opportunities to do larger projects in Sydney until recently. I mean, and then Melbourne.

15:53

You know? I just I don't know. I couldn't as I said, I couldn't get a public toilet here. And and people are, oh, Mel, but you do houses. You know?

16:02

And, and so but we've slowly been, you know, coming at it from different angles. And the the lovely thing now is that we're people say, oh, to me, what sort of architect you know, like, just sort of randos or, you know, moms and dads in the street. It's like that, what sort of architect are you, Mel? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. We do all things now.

16:24

And that's a pretty lovely that wasn't the case of couple of a couple of years ago. I would say we were probably doing houses, and we happen to have a couple of other bigger projects, but we really do have a pretty, great mix now.

16:38

You're talking about the people in the street that are kinda going, like, what kind of architect are you? And the remark of, oh, but you just do houses or something like that, and that kind of ties into this conversation about, you know, broadening into, you know, public work and pursuing that. That's a big issue, isn't it? When you when you're successful and have well known residential projects, you do start getting a bit typecast or pigeonholed for a certain type of work. And this is a thing that we have a conversation about on the podcast fairly often as well.

17:04

But just wondering, like, is there anything you can really do to kind of tip the balance, or is it just sort of put out more public work over time, you know, that that cycle of a few years goes by and people start to sort of see you in a different light. And is it just saying that you feel best just kinda happens kind of organically, or is there anything you can do to kind of get people's perception of your practice kind of moving in that direction a little bit more? Like, what you, you know, what you say on Instagram or what you highlight or Often projects get projects. Yes.

17:31

That is the that is the nature of, I believe, what we do. Whatever project you're working on now gets you to the next one. Particularly in the start. Maybe now more of our body of work gets us work, which is which is nice. But in the early days, I felt a really direct link between finishing a project, putting it out in the world, and getting more projects like that.

17:56

And that's not very helpful, I know, but it was a sort of incremental shift in the project. So it's not like a, oh, snap. We do that. But it was it was a instant sort of a sort of, you know, very slowly shifting into things and finding the overlap. So, you know, really, if you look at it from a few different perspectives, the houses always had a sensibility of city and civic.

18:24

And I believe that approach to architecture can be scaled up to city making. So I always talked about that, as in talks or anywhere I was sort of asked, you know, to talk about our work, I would talk about the little seat that we made on the back line, you know, things like that. So those things I felt helped that, you know, trajectory. I think social housing, we we just pretty much offered, put our hand up to do a women's property initiatives project for housing for homeless women, and we pretty much did it at very low fees for design and pro bono for the rest. So we did that with no idea what it would turn out like, and people go, oh, gee.

19:11

That metal turned out well. But you don't know. It could've just been because we also did a bush like, we did a bushfire home pro bono project. More just we drew something up for someone to help them. And it was they did not want any of our we tried to give some design ideas.

19:27

I'm like, hey. Just just, you know, show them what we would do. And the guy just says, no. I just want it drawn like this. I said, in the end, our role here is to just give this this guy who's lost his house a home, and he wants it quick, and he wants it done like this, so I just draw it.

19:41

Right? So you don't really know. And and so it looks like, oh, you know, that gee, that worked out well for you, Mel, but there's, you know, there's all the others that, you know, you go, well, that's just done for helping. But the Women's Property Initiatives Project, I could see that we were getting a good result. And so for me, what it is sometimes is going, I think that's gonna turn out well.

20:00

So, we will pour a lot of energy into making sure it turns out well. So, you know, if if, for example, I thought their design wasn't very good or we you know, it wasn't gonna be built you you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, well. Great that we helped someone. Fantastic.

20:17

But maybe we, you know, let it go.

20:19

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

20:20

Yeah. So it's a kind of, for me, I really and, you know, it's funny. Even even, you know, on the houses, like, I often tell clients, for a good client that loves what we do, we will do anything if the project's gonna be good and they give a shit about what we're trying to do to the point where we'll lose money to just go, what else do you need? What else do you need? You know?

20:42

And and I feel like sometimes people don't realize that. If you get an architect totally invested, we're suckers. We'll just, you know, work forever because we love it, you know, and it's sort of a problem with it as a business. But the Women's Property Initiative Project, so we did it and then I go, well, it's turning out well, let's, you know, let's sort of and sometimes I feel like we're forcing ourselves on it. Like, we weren't really needed on-site.

21:06

The builder certainly was a backyard builder. He was probably wishing we would go away, and I'm like, no. No. We'll we'll come. No problem.

21:14

You know? So sometimes I feel like you're kind of providing a service that no one really want. Not only you're not getting paid, but but they don't want it. But the outcome was great. And we photographed it and we, you know, it's on the front cover of AA.

21:29

Unbelievable. Like, that's just incredible. But did I know that would happen at the start? No. The main ambition was I would really like to do some work that helps women.

21:40

So it comes, I feel, from a kind of authentic base, because you can't you can't, fake care or interest. Does that make sense? And and, it's like it kind of comes through in in everything you do because it's not polished or it's just, you know, who you are and what you believe in. And and if you just keep being you, maybe people are interested in that.

22:10

I like this idea of, you know, looking at the projects that you've got going on and sensing the ones that are going really well or are gonna turn out really well, and then it's, like, doubling down, tripling down on those ones.

22:21

Sometimes we sit there, Dave, and you go someone's, I'm going, oh, I've got a good idea for this, and we'll spend, you know, days, you know, and they're like, oh, thanks, but no thanks. And you're like, oh, alright. And then sometimes we just have to sort of shove it in their face. But the end story of the women's property initiatives thing is that, you know, Holmes Victoria are, seeing our work. They're showing other people, look, this is a great precedent for, affordable housing, and so our name gets associated with a good outcome.

22:54

And then we're now doing a really large social housing, project. We're doing it in collaboration with, with Hayball, and they're the executive architect. But to me, that is incredible as it if you look at that, they're the steps, and we we're trying to do other social housing work as well. It's it is just little steps.

23:15

I'm maybe interested in jumping over to something that's completely different topic, but you have such a unique practice environment. So it's like, I wanna go to that for a minute. So maybe start by just, like, describing the kind of practice environment that you guys have set up, the place, the space.

23:32

Well, I mean, look. That is incredibly privileged spot to be. We're in an old barn, on the river. It looks like the countryside, and we've, you know but I've sort of negotiated with my husband to take over a bit of his boat building, barn and, you know, squeezed an office into it. And, you know, a lot of that has been about desire to be near my house, near my kids, you know, and to make a nice life for my family.

24:04

Yeah. Which means that my kids are around, and I'm around, and things like that. So if you start it from that point of view, then the next sort of layer is, again, a sort of thing that evolved. I didn't go, oh, that's the practice I wanna make. It went, you know, little often even quite selfish things that are about what kind of office or place do I wanna work.

24:31

And if you sort of think about the basic premise, I hope to think that working at Studio Bright is good for you. So how do you think about that? I think that and maybe, again, this is a reaction to my generation of architects. I remember being a student and people saying to me, oh, Mel, you know, this is what I used to do as a student. And I'm like, oh, we gotta whip ourselves a bit more.

24:53

Yeah. You know, stay up all late, all night, you know, kill ourselves for it. And I and I feel like that that I was I've been resisting that culture, and I the challenge I set for myself is can you make good buildings without necessarily sacrificing your whole life for it. And it doesn't mean we don't work our butts off, but, I really have have so everything starts from that. So if you start from that, I then go little things have evolved where I had kids, and I didn't know how to fit in exercise because, you know, you're juggling kids on either side of the work day.

25:33

And so I wanted to get a personal trainer, so I would do exercise at lunch. And then I kind of go, I feel a bit bad some of the team are working while I'm exercising. So I'm like, hey. Do you wanna join me? And so now the whole team on Monday afternoon Monday lunchtime does personal we have a personal trainer that comes and who's been coming for years now.

25:53

We've I think we've had counted 10 years, same personal trainer. So, it's, you know, I just love that there's this little we're building this place where we kind of I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I'm a people gatherer.

26:08

Do you

26:08

know what I mean? Like, it's like, trying to find people that you wanna, have in your life that you're good for, that are good for you, and, that that's for work and all things. Yeah. And so anyway so Ange comes, and in COVID, we increased it to Friday lunch as well. So we do PT on Monday and Pilates on Friday, and everyone I don't I don't also I don't like having meetings on projects Monday morning.

26:33

I like having a team meeting. So, you know, the rule is everyone comes in their exercise gear on Monday morning Yeah. If they want. Some people are less comfortable in Lycra. And and then and then and same with Fridays.

26:46

So we do things like that, and then we do things like another kind of slightly evolved thing was I often would get so busy that I wouldn't eat lunch, and I think, Em and a couple of the team thought I was a bit hangry, so they were, you know, going, Mel, why don't we just make a salad? This is when the team was little. Yeah. So we'd make a just a salad and have a salad lunch and, you know, just a quick salad. And then the team sort of grew from 4 people to 5 to 6, and and then it a few of the guys are like, oh, are you guys having salad today?

27:17

It's like, yeah. Do you want some? And so we sort of go, oh, alright. We'll make a bit more salad. And then and then we started getting people that, have different diet treats, so you kinda go, oh, you can't eat tomato, and and then it became like, okay.

27:31

So we you know, it started to, like, grow, and then people would start making lunch. So then we made lunch. I started just doing my family shopping. I'd just buy extra food, and we'd put it all in the fridge, and people would just cook stuff. And but everyone is really good cooks here, so they started escalating the kind of standard.

27:48

And I I tried to keep always bringing it down. I'd just make a very simple soup. You know? Anyway, so this went this has gone on and on, and then it got to the point where I reckon I had 2 really good architects, you know, cooking this most fabulous lunch, you know, when I'm desperate to get some drawings out

28:04

and I'm not going to all morning.

28:05

This is maybe not really the best business model, but and so in recent times, we've employed a in house chef.

28:15

Oh, great.

28:15

I probably should have someone add it all up. Okay? But I still reckon, you know, you could add it up if you wanted to go straight I do it because I love it, and I think the team love it, and it's a really nice thing. And and it's very healthy. Like, everyone it's just delicious.

28:32

But if you add it all up, you know, I go, well, if you wanna be really boring business about it, you go, well, most of my team eat lunch together. Fantastic studio culture. They often talk about work. They don't always talk about work. They talk about anything else.

28:46

So you're technically kind of you know, and then they'll often be busy, and instead of, you know, going out for an hour, rushing back, and stuff like that, the team is sitting around. They've been fed something delicious and healthy, and probably they're taking a a shorter lunch break.

29:01

I think, like, these sorts of, like, office perks or company perks are, like, the sort of thing you expect to see at, like, a really, really, really big company like a bank or something. Like, they would. But I think there's this sort of, like it this unique sort of I guess, like, it is that kind of personal authenticity thing again where it's kind of like these are things that sort of I I wanna kind of create this culture of the place that I wanna work, and it is sort of strange and a bit different for a small practice. Well, you know, a 15 person practice or thereabouts, to have that kind of workplace that's really, you know, pretty unique.

29:35

Yeah. And I think, you know, the other thing that it's sort of what I also really hope is that it makes a good place that people wanna stay. So, you know, that that my team come here and they kinda go, well, you know, like, probably there's many days where the project's shit and I'm annoying and whatever and, you know, that's difficult and and all of the, you know, standard problems of working somewhere. But but I do hope that, you know, there's a genuine feeling of being looked after as a place here. And if that means then my team stay, I'm very happy about that.

30:10

I kind of I don't we don't have a high staff turnover at all. Like, it's it's almost, you know, a bit of a problem. You're sort of trying to slot new people in between desks and things like that. But but and I and I think that's a that's a that's a good thing.

30:29

Does the space that you've created kind of almost in a way lead to the sort of size of practice that that you feel that you're at at the moment. I feel like I often hear that people are like, we just don't have any more room so that's why we're this size, you know. Are you sort of Yeah. In a similar sort of spot?

30:44

Probably. I don't know where else we can the only way we're getting more room at the minute, Dave, is some of my long standing team are moving into stage, and I don't wanna lose them. So they're still working for us, and so I get a a spare desk. So but I don't think I can have that many more people, you know, everywhere. It's it's a, it's a it's not that it's not that easy.

31:04

But you kind of famous last words, but we've been at this size for a while, and it's a it's a nice size. I think often people talk about as a business size. It's not that easy to, you know, 15 is a really tricky size in terms of profitability and cash flow, and I have found that. It's sort of challenging. I

31:25

think maybe

31:25

a bit

31:26

bit bigger, a bit smaller would be just

31:28

I don't know. Bigger would stress me out, though. So and smaller, I feel like my team get would get cross with me because we've got interesting things to do. And and on top of that, I don't I would don't wanna say no to projects that I'm excited about. So that will be the test when we get, you know, enough if if if we get asked to do enough projects that sound really fun.

31:53

Would there be a project that would be oversized on your kind of horizon that you would suddenly need to consider, like, hiring a whole bunch of extra people? Or do you feel like everything is gonna happen in this sort of ink I mean, obviously, can't predict the future, but is it more likely to be sort of more incremental or you've got the ability to kind of absorb, like, a big project? Do I just think about what that big public project could be that would suddenly, you know, put you in a situation where you're like, oh, we need to be 35 people. You know? I don't

32:21

Yeah. It's not something I would really like to do because I think some of the things I noticed with practices that scale up quickly is you often have to fire people quickly too, and I really am not very good at HR. I would I really would get too upset doing that. So, I hope not, but I don't really know the answer to that until it happens. But probably the bigger challenge is not one big project, because I think if it was so big, I would rather, collaborate.

32:50

And I and I would rather have I think the thing I've said in here is that I I quite like working with people that, wanna have a design conversation about everything they do. And that means detailing. That means delivery. That that I've never really wanted to work on a project where you go design happens over here, and you guys are just gonna sort of, you know, deliver it. Because I actually don't reckon architecture's like that.

33:20

You have to make design decisions, you know, through documentation, through being on-site, And I feel if you don't have the designer, there, you're not gonna get the right decisions and it can make or break a project. So my problem is that I think when you go to the bigger projects, you actually need to employ people that, you know, are happy to sit all day doing concrete set out plans. And I'm not I don't really know if I get along that well with those people, but but but but I haven't really tried that hard. And so I feel like, and I don't wanna kind of it's sort of challenging because, you know, the other the team I've got at the minute, you know, they they also, are really interested in design. So to have them sitting there just churning, you know, which which is sometimes needed is is difficult.

34:15

So the I don't know what the answer is, but I think the collaboration answer is really interesting to me for those bigger projects. And then the the real issue for me comes when we're doing it's enough different projects. So but it's really hard to tell because you kind of, you know, even at our scale, you're kind of 1 project away from disaster in either direction. My husband always has said that to me. He's like, Mel, in architecture, there's, you know, you're either stressed because you're too busy or stressed because you're not busy enough, and there's about 15 minutes in between where you feel happy.

34:51

Yeah. That's very true.

34:52

And I I think it is like that. You know? And particularly small practice, we're just maybe big practice as well. They would probably say the same thing. But but, it's you you know, we're kind of sitting here.

35:04

Like, the things that might come in in the next 6 months, I think, oh, dear. That's like a lot of work. How will we do that? But if none of them come in, you know, I don't know I don't know what we're doing then either. So What

35:19

what is it about architecture that sort of works that way? I know it's a bit of a weird business question, but the business model, like, why is that so typical that you're just, like, right on that edge?

35:27

It's because the projects take so long and so much resources to deliver in in is what I reckon. Like, it's it's just, that, you know, for some builders, it's even worse. You can think, you know, the small builders that can do 2 projects a year. That it's you know, I don't know how that's stressful. And so we're not at that sort of level, but but it is like that.

35:52

And I, maybe even worse when you just do all one size project. So we sort of luckily do a mix of sizes. So in some ways, whereas where a practice at 15, even a huge practice, is only gonna have a team of 6 on a job. So I feel like I can still put a team of 6. Sometimes I can put a team of 15.

36:12

And because it's a very nimble practice, I can just go, hey, everyone. We just need to stop everything, and we're gonna all work on this project for the week. And and so in some ways, we can really churn and out the work. And we're all in the space, and I'm, you know, heavily involved, and so I feel like sometimes our efficiency is unbelievably good. You know?

36:34

Plus, we've been using, you know, we've been using ARCHICAD software since I started. So that's since 2006.

36:42

Okay.

36:42

And, Dave, I can still use it.

36:44

Oh, huge.

36:45

Just want you to know that. Yep. Yep. That, like but I'm a bit slow now. But but, but I'm trying to keep with it because I and even actually, I trained some of the first few people.

36:55

But

36:56

When we're talking earlier about piling those resources into the best projects, I got the sense that, you know, you're kind of sometimes discovering throughout the journey that maybe the client is not as great or as enthusiastic as you first thought they were, and that can happen. I guess that speaks to the idea that it's impossible to truly filter out everybody before you begin working with them. Right? Like, I mean, I'm interested in kind of this idea of, like, important choices about which projects are the right projects to work on and, like, which are the ones to potentially not. And whenever I bring this up, obviously, we always say, like, well, we when we're not in a position where we can just pick and choose everything, like, we always blah blah blah.

37:35

But that aside, when we are sort of trying to work out what are those, like, red flags or those things that we're really looking for, like, what's a couple of things?

37:45

I'd I've learned a lot to trust my intuition. And I know that's a bit boring, but, like because a lot of it is people and relationships. And so I've learned over the years, if my first meeting with someone is feels a bit odd And Em actually who's worked for me for years, she now goes, I'll have had a new project meeting and I'll come back up and people, the team will usually go because I involve them in all that sort of like, you know, whether we wanna do it or not and just chat about that. And and then we'll go, oh, Mel, you don't seem excited. And I won't have been able to put my finger on why.

38:20

And so she started making a rule that if I don't come up buzzing from the meeting, you know, there's some reason why we shouldn't be doing it. And so I quite like that, mostly because I think the team have learned that I have a bit of a vibe about it going, no. No. That one's no good. That one's no good.

38:39

And, and it's not being I know that sounds a bit sort of, you know, I don't know, a bit I don't wanna sound arrogant about it, but it's like the best way we can do a good project is to find people that really want and value what we do. And so my job is to make sure we can, communicate to people what we do, well, as well as I can. So how do I communicate our values and not anyone else's? Just this is what we do and be very authentic in that communication. And then to me, that's its own filtering device.

39:20

And and then it's my job to kind of just make sure those, I think, relationships because it goes for a long time. Even a house is 3 years, you know? That's that's a long time to, and it's stressful for a house, you know? Like, people are at their worst sometimes under those sort of that kind of pressure. So if they're a bit off in the first fun meeting

39:44

Is there a couple of values or things in particular that you feel like are the best filtering dynamite in terms of, like, they definitely turn people off, the wrong sort of people? Cause I know what mine are when I'm when I'm having a conversation.

39:57

Yours, Dave? I don't

39:58

know. If I'm unsure about somebody, I'll start talk I'll stop being like, you know, marketing is not really about social media, and I'll start throwing these kind of sort of edgy things at them. And then they're kind of like I don't know. Like, I I get this kind of

40:09

You almost put them off your side.

40:11

I wanna sort of put I wanna sort of test them. Like, in initial meetings, I'm kind of talking about, like, are we really asking big strategic questions here? Like, are we are your goals, like, lofty enough? Like, I'm really I'm trying to sort of stir the pot a little bit just to sort of see how they react because I think if they're put off by my sort of philosophy in that first meeting, it's like, where are we going from here? It's just not gonna No.

40:30

It's just fighting, fighting against it. And, and, and you might as well find that out earlier because then you're doing yourself a favor and you're also doing them a favor, You know? So so I really I totally agree with you, and not being afraid to, to not want a project. And so the best business thing I have probably done is tried to not feel, you know, so desperate for that we had to win a project. Do you know what I mean?

41:00

Because then you start making difficult decisions or decisions that are maybe not very good. So, trying to keep some buffer in my life so that we don't desperately need to feed the sausage factory. Favor. There's there's because the best, outcome for someone else's project is to find the architect that just thinks it's the best job ever. And and and that's scale as well.

41:31

Like, I have friends that ask they're trying to find an architect or, you know, relatives, and and we try and sort of help them find someone. And and and I, sort of often talk to them about, well, you've just gotta find someone that you sort of, have a good rapport with because things are gonna go wrong. So, you know

41:51

Are you talking about when you're meeting with potential clients? So you're also just talking about into the world in general, like putting out the value of what you do and being out there kinda advocating for that, and then, you know, hopefully, that will attract the right sort of people and sort of turn away the wrong sort. I think both. It's it's funny. It's like the

42:10

projects that you put out there are the ones that will get you into the next jobs as well. So therefore, you can kind of direct that in a way on the bits that you think represent well. I worked out reasonably quickly. Like, a lot of architects talk about wanting to just get bigger and bigger projects. I've never been focused on that.

42:27

I just wanna get better and better projects. That's not a big bigness thing. And and and just in residential projects, it was sort of really obvious to me that we started getting in magazines, you know, when when we'd sort of started doing a few projects. And we so we started getting sort of more calls from from, you know, a broader audience. But I realized that some of them, you know, were just looking at the sort of style of something.

42:55

And but that the maybe they then they would sort of be like, oh, well, no, Mel. We don't really like real grass. We can't keep that going. And I'm like, you know, I don't know. Or that's a you know, or or, you know, all of our children must have en suites.

43:12

And, you know, that was probably more about going, I don't really want those huge houses in

43:18

in It's not about bigger.

43:20

In Tura. And I realized that what we wanted to be doing was these really interesting inner city projects that, you know, make the most out of tricky site conditions, and we were really good at that. And so it was in some ways realizing, initially, I go, oh, someone's throwing me up, and I want a $4,000,000 house. That's so exciting because, you know, normally we're only getting $500,000 jobs, and we're trying to make something with nothing. And and I realized that actually we are probably happier, you know, with a smaller thing, even though most other architects are going, no.

43:51

No. No. We don't do anything less than this.

43:53

Discussed this on other episodes, but I think something happens in residential where you do think bigger, bigger, bigger to a point, and then you start getting clients that want, like, a 7 car garage for their Porsches, and then you start going, wait a minute. I've something's gone wrong here. What's happened?

44:10

You know, because I've been on juries before with people with 7 car garages, and I've asked where are your, you know, PVs at? Where's your PVs? Your solar or your water tank? And they're like, oh, I didn't we didn't we didn't we didn't put any of that in. I'm like, so you can afford.

44:27

I I just and I said I would it's nice because I said to a client even I said, you know, I said it's funny who, you know, obviously, you know, probably not anymore. But, you know, 10 years ago, it'd be like, oh, maybe, can we sort of, you know, cost cut the solar for example? And I could sit there and kinda go, well, look, you could. But usually, if I'm sort of looking at projects and, you know, people are saying we couldn't afford it, but you can afford a $2,000,000 house, probably you can afford the solar. And and, you know, that's a bit I probably would rather work with clients that can kind of handle that comment.

45:03

Yeah. So I think that's a challenge in terms of, I guess, like, the growing popularity of a practice over time as well, because I I suppose in the beginning, you're just kinda seen within the architecture world to a degree, like, you know, by a lot of your peers and things like that. But it gradually starts to increase and then suppose your publicity starts to spread into really, like, much broader places or can do. And then you start really getting outside of, like, the typical kind of architecture audience so you can, and then you kind of you do get, like, this slight change of, you know, sometimes this change of values or different sort of approach to certain things at certain budget scales. So I see a lot of practices that kind of do the sort of smaller, quite unique, quite challenging sort of residential, and then they move to small, unique, challenging public, and they kinda skip.

45:45

They they don't try and go after that, like, 4,000,000 plus residential because it seems like architecture just kind of dips there a little bit. Each practice is, like, you know, each to their own, I suppose, in terms of, like, what they wanna go for.

45:58

Yeah. Some practices manage all of it really all scales really well as well. Like, so I kind of look at them sometimes because I think Kennedy Nolan, they seem to manage to do, you know, every single thing that they do is good, and Kirsten Thompson as well, you know, and in Sydney, people like, you know, William Smart, you know, or or Durbec Lach Jaggers, they're sort of, like, managing to do all of these different things, and it's all good. And some of those could be good, you know, like, I don't know. I think that would be quite fun.

46:27

We gotta get, like, the art collector, like, curator client.

46:32

I don't think I'm polished enough for that, Dave. So just have to accept who you are, don't you?

46:37

You talked earlier about the olden days on the Instagram, you know, the early days of the Instagram account. And I'm not gonna dig into, like, the individual images, but I noticed, you know, kind of trawling back, something there was a real big change of approach after the rebrand in 2019 or the rename. I feel like there's, like, a point there where you can almost see the images announcing the new brand, but everything prior to that is kind of like site visits and holidays and, like, travel around Europe, and it's very like it's very like Mel's personal scrapbook of architectural inspo. And then after this point, everything changes. It becomes, like, much more portfolio oriented.

47:19

I named the business after myself and then stopped, you know, making it about me anymore.

47:24

Still under the banner of your name. And I think I'm interested in talking about this kind of because it's kind of a unique thing. Then from that point onwards, consistent Rory Gardner photography across apps well, by everything. It was like a complete overnight, like, reinvention. Looking back at your, like, scrapbook of, like, Italy in the pre in the in the make days on Instagram, every post still getting 1500 likes.

47:49

Like, that was all doing like, great engagement. It was solid. But then you completely changed approach and then maintained that very, very high level of engagement, I felt. Like Did I

47:59

have you done that? You've done some proper analysis, Dave.

48:03

Yeah. At a glance analytics of your Instagram. But but it was really interesting how you took a purely personal page and brand, but it started this very sort of personal way, And I think you developed an audience of, like, Mel's Instagram mates who were following you as a personal account, but then you shifted it towards more of this kind of company account that still has this personal kind of feel to it. But it has become a lot more kind of proper in terms of the the imagery that's put out there. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

48:32

Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No.

48:33

It's good. That's a really good question, and I'm just trying to remember all my thoughts while you were talking. There's a few background bits. I don't I never really had was that interested in having any kind of face I've got no Facebook. I've, just I've I actually was not that interested in having a personal Mel, you know, family shop account.

48:55

I couldn't be bothered. Right? And and and honestly, I did I started having social media accounts only for the business, and I didn't wanna manage more than 1 because it was just me, and I couldn't be bothered. And so but it was kind of, you know, mates and people and stuff like that. So I would post things that, you know, were just I just posted things that gave a a in some ways, a reflection of who I who I was, hoping that maybe people would go, oh, that she seems like a nice architect, and I'd like to work with her.

49:30

And in many ways, I remember, you know, interviewing graphic designers, and I did look at their social media because I wanted the not the website. I wanted the less polished, the less polished perspective of the world. So, you know, I remember trying to choose graphic designers for our rebrand brand, and I and I went, oh, that guy's posting all these sort of, like, you know, I don't know, motorbike things. And I just go, I'm not that interest I don't know that how I'm gonna have that conversation about like, I just not that I've got anything against motorbikes, and I think they're fantastic. But I just felt like I would, you know and so I thought that was a really great thing about Instagram in the early days is that if people were trying to find someone to work with, they could kind of, get a sense of who they were, and didn't have to be you know, everything.

50:23

So I just tried to post things that were more about architecture or things like that, and then a few things happened as well. I posted a bit of my kids, and then I kind of thought, you know what? I don't I feel like, you know, people learned a lot more about social media, and I just felt like I didn't wanna post as much about my personal life and my kids' personal life. And so it was not a business or a marketing decision, but probably more of a, people don't really wanna hear about your holidays, Mel. You know?

50:55

And maybe it was what happened, Dave, is that people I realized that most people had come to follow my Instagram as it grew, not from my sort of, you know, a few people, but it started to be a way more broad following. And I thought people are not coming to me for Mel Bright's latest holiday or my kids', you know, latest sporting achievement. Though I did pass it post a basketball shot last week, which, you know anyway. So I I How many likes? I wasn't even a chair.

51:30

I didn't even look. I didn't even look. And and so it was a story. But but I but I felt like, it it was a nice thing that, you know, in some ways, I think that it's great that the sort of residential projects that we were doing back then, people would go, Mel's got kids and family, and she understands how to make a house work. That's a pretty good sound business decision, I think.

51:58

You know? And then we didn't have a lot of architecture at the time, So I did a lot of site updates. Actually, Dave, there was a point where I felt like we were, the work that we were building was where I wanted to be pitching and we didn't have the work completed yet. So I was very, very heavily reliant on posting site updates because I felt like that was the thing that was showing people what we could do. And maybe I would post things like work in progress, or I would post travel things, or all of that stuff.

52:30

Really, because it's because we didn't have enough other content. You know? And I and I was really trying to, lift the level of inquiry to the work we wanted to do. It's I like, I haven't really thought about this at all.

52:45

I think the personal account approach enables that or the personal brand enables that because I think if you're the typical practice and you're sort of creating a company account, a brand account, and you're posting you're not gonna post that personal stuff. You're not gonna post kids and boats and dogs and things like that as much. You're gonna post a lot more polished sort of imagery. And then when you try and do the site visit stuff off the iPhone, it looks really sloppy and uncurated. You're in a bit of a straight jacket as a as a company sort of image that to kinda go, it has to be at a certain level of refinement.

53:20

Whereas when it's a personal account, it kinda gives you that permission to be like, it's a bit ad hoc, and I'm just kind of posting stuff as it happens. So gives it a bit more authenticity, and and it kinda lets you get away with a bit more of that sort of

53:31

Yeah. Look. Absolutely. And I do I know that people really design their Instagram accounts now.

53:36

Immaculately. Right?

53:37

Yeah. Yeah. And you have to post 3 of the same thing and, you know, all those rules. And I look at those and I think, oh, this so and I actually remember going, maybe ours should look more like that. You know, we should be way more polished.

53:49

And then I'm like, ah, no. I can't be bothered. And then the only other change that I didn't get to at the end is more lately, Dave, is literally I just feel so time poor. We have been having a conversation in the office here for ages. I'm like, guys, can someone help me with the Instagram?

54:04

Because I still well, I do it. I don't wanna change because I feel like I still like that there's a voice of sort of, you know, being authentic, and I do heavily care about what gets posted. I even care if my team posts shit site photos. Let's be honest. So maybe I'm sounding so relaxed on it, Dave, but I'm like, oh, no.

54:27

No. No. No.

54:28

No. No. And careful.

54:29

Because I don't Yeah. Want that stuff out there. You know? I think I wanna, you know, be happy with the you know? It's like, oh my god.

54:37

You posted that angle of the thing. But my team mostly don't do that. But a builder, for example, is like I'm like, oh. And it's not because I'm unhappy with them. It's that I feel slightly insecure about something that we did, and I'm worried about, you know, that.

54:53

So it's it's probably comes from my own anxiety. But anyway, more recently, I've just had a bit of a flurry, but I've been trying to post more, but I'm really lazy. And and we're just trying to do the work.

55:06

I guess, like, it was quite a change in terms of the overall sort of look and feel that came around that branding period. And I think, like, you really changed your photography approach as well with your projects.

55:16

When we changed from make to studio bright, we we made the shift to Rory. Peter Bennett's, I absolutely love him, and I love his photos. And I love everything that we he took all of our photos for us. Still love Peter. I think that for the rebrand, I just, felt like it was Rory, Em knew Rory.

55:39

He wasn't actually being used much in the in Australia at all. But, one of Em who works for me, she knew him and, actually gave me this print of his, one one Christmas. And and so we started to talk to Rory for the website about doing these video stills. And a lot of people weren't using that for a long at all at the time. And, we you know, the ones down on our landing page?

56:07

They're just these so

56:08

Just subtle movement.

56:10

Yeah. So what happened is I wanted to talk to Rory about doing them, a whole series of them, and that came from Studio Round who we worked with for the rebrand. They said, Mil what about this? And I'm like, that is just such a lovely idea. Because it to me it talked to picking up on a sort of quality of space and a and but also a place.

56:30

Like to me those little videos capture, you know, the sort of wind in the trees and that, you know, there's something really quite, contextual about them. Do you know what I mean? And about time and place. And so that it came from that. And then, Em had been talking to Rory for a while.

56:49

And I suppose one of the things I love about Rory's photos is that he takes architecture and interiors both equally really well. And our projects always have both. We actually did try a few different photographers, but we we I felt like the work that Rory did was this really lovely balance of interiors, quality of space, and and architecture. But I'm also, Dave, a little bit like, you know, a sort of it's a little bit like my team and that, you know, Anj, our personal trainer. I just like to find a good person and stick with them.

57:25

And it and it's a lot for me to change because I find particularly with photography, I find that a really, like, you know, slightly very stressful and and revealing thing that I feel quite anxious about. So I like I just like it to be someone that I know that I can, you know, because you have to kind of bare your soul a bit. No. Not that angle, Rory. That's the bit where we didn't do the gutter detail right.

57:49

You know? And

57:51

It is interesting in that question about it being the individual or the or the or the practice or the company. Like, it's very I see this all the time, this idea of, like, we change the name or we change the social media approach or something because we wanted it to you know, architecture is a team effort. It's not about 1 individual person. It's about all of us kind of working together, and we felt that, like, the way we were communicating publicly was not reflecting that. Like, it's so, you know, it's extremely formal.

58:18

Becomes really bland, doesn't it? Like and that's the sort of fine balance, isn't it? And I'm I'm aware that I'm probably not doing a great job of that. But I I try and post things, if we're talking about Instagram, that maybe people are interested in enough. But but not not sort of, you know, like, I think we got to we were in Japan over summer and

58:38

Not a single ski slope was shared. Thank you, darling. Happened? Do you didn't share anything?

58:44

No. I don't. No. No one needs to no one needs to, you know, hear about that. And I was there with Claire Cousins, who's my dear friend and but, you know, maybe people are interested in that, but really, you know, it would just be annoying.

58:56

The word early has come off a lot on the podcast. Early to Archicad. Early to using cine video vignette things on websites. Early to working with Rory. Like, early to Instagram, like, early, early, early.

59:09

You're always there doing

59:10

You said that.

59:11

You've been saying all this stuff. Every single thing we've been talking about, it's like, yeah, like, we're doing it in 2,006. I think listeners who look at Studio Bright would probably agree that, like, there is often sort of, like, an aspect of kind of trendsetting in terms of what what you do. But I think, like, there's this idea of, like, whether it's imagery or branding or whatever, there's, like, this sense of doing it, and then other people look at it and go, oh my god. That's great.

59:36

And then they do it too. And do you kinda consider yourself maybe a little bit of an early adopter of things? Like, you sort of do stuff early. Like, what's up with that?

59:43

I'm gonna say this because my dad, he, we he I I grew up with lots of his sort of little life quotes, but one of them is the harder I work, the luckier I get. And I, and I do love that. And then, so I often say to him when something goes well, I go, oh, yeah, just lucky, I guess. And and I whenever I say that, like I said that to you earlier, I've have in my head, I just work bloody hard. It's a tricky question to ask.

1:00:09

Like, it's you said early to Instagram, but I didn't remember being early to Instagram. I just remembered, you know, thinking that I quite liked it as a thing and thought, oh, that's great. You know? And then and then the Archicad stuff was just that my background I'd worked at lab, and I'd worked at sort of play I always loved the 3 d, 2 d integrated, design process, and probably I'm not a very good drawer. So I had to really heavily rely on computers from early days.

1:00:41

So that and I said the word again, but not trying to be strategic. Once in a while, I try and predict a brick trend. I reckon I predicted the cream brick trend. Elizabeth McIntyre from Think Bricks got me quoted on that. I said, I want you to remember that I said it.

1:00:57

And and I was you know, but but everyone's getting something from everywhere. I just I'm trying to and I think in some ways as well, Dave, I just really do try and be around people that are, smarter than me, and I and I I think I'm good at going, oh,

1:01:13

you know. Every single answer I get on the podcast for any question, it's almost every single response starts with, we don't have a, like, thought through strategy for this, but you know? And then there's always some, like, sort of thinking behind it, and that's what I'm always in kinda getting to. I know that you haven't kind of, like, sat down and planned out and, like, gotten your, you know, the blackboard out and done a bunch of diagrams of how this all works. And I think about something like garden tower house, for example, and, like, the exterior and the look and kind of feel of that project.

1:01:41

I think that just is kind of like a pretty iconic material choice, which I think then I don't know. Has that, like, sparked a trend?

1:01:49

Is We were so slow on the breeze block vibe. I've been wanting to do a breeze block thing for so many years. It's just no one would let me do it. And so I'm, like, feeling like already, you know, is it a a slow thing? But I also try and use materials that whilst maybe more people are using BreezeBlock now, people were always using BreezeBlock.

1:02:10

And so whilst it might come and go, it's still a really authentic grape material. So do do you know what I mean? Like, it's it's not same with brick. And so at the basis of all things, we're trying to make the choices around things that last, and using that as a priority. The, you know, I'll think through, like, well, I think society's going in this particular direction.

1:02:40

Absolutely. You know, for whatever. I don't know what that relates to. But, like, you know, we should be doing, this more. I I, you know, like, I I I don't know.

1:02:52

We certainly for example, you know, I'm gonna say that as well, but, like, we were putting where our projects are built whose country they are on a long time ago. It it was not something that is it was a new thing because we're gonna do a wrap now. It was something that we had started to do quite a long time ago. And and I sometimes it's it's luck that I hear that those things make sense. But it's probably also I I think that maybe the thing that I'm doing is filtering the bits that I think have that are, have traction.

1:03:29

I guess, Mel, as, like, we come to the end of of kind of the chat, I've gotta let you go have your lunch and do what you need to do. Any sort of conclusions after all the things we talked about today? I asked the worst possible question.

1:03:41

1 I mean, one thing, everyone talks about work life balance, and and I and I something that sort of I thought about recently. And certainly more recent times for me, I've sort of been getting older, and my kids are a bit older, and I'm thinking, I don't wanna have given up all these years where I don't hang out with them. And so I've been trying to, you know, really be careful about what I do so that I can do other things as well recently. And and I I've spent a lot of my time feeling, I reckon, guilty if I'm at work, guilty if I'm home. You know, like, it's like this constant kind of, thing.

1:04:23

And I think everyone feels that, you know. And I loved the other day, I went to a little talk with, Maggie Edmond and Kirsten Thompson and Maggie oh, no. And it was the American architect who won the gold medal. And I I just this is terrible, but I can't remember her name. But she talked about, like, everyone talks about work life balance and it's really like, you know, everyone's sick of hearing is sort of like, you know, but she talked about, and I really loved it, like that there was the fulcrum and that it slid to balance it.

1:04:55

And sometimes you're doing more work and sometimes you're doing more family and that that's okay. And I just really loved that. That it that that that that you can kind of accept that different phases. I can see that now as my kids are getting older and I'm maybe not as I'm able to sort of accept that I'm going to take more time out for them because and people keep asking me to do things at the minute, and I'm like, can you just wait 6 years? Because then all my both of my kids are gonna be finished school.

1:05:22

Mel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

1:05:25

My pleasure, Dave. I was getting the wrap up signs then I thought I needed to just close it down. It's been really nice talking to you. Thank you.

1:05:38

That was my conversation with Mel Bright from Studio Bright. If you'd like to learn more about her studio, you can visit studiobright.com.au or follow the studio on Instagram atstudio__bright. Office Talk is hosted by Dave Sharp of Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe, so to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp.com. Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio.