0:00

This fall, use Steel Power to tackle

0:02

all your outdoor chores with dependable chainsaws,

0:05

blowers, trimmers, and more. Right

0:07

now, get a chainsaw carrying case, chain,

0:09

and hat. A $100 value for free with

0:12

purchase of select steel chainsaws. Real

0:14

steel. Find yours at steeldealers.com.

0:17

Valid October 1st, 2023 through December 30th, 2023 at

0:21

participating retailers while supplies last.

0:24

Welcome to Breeze Line, where next level

0:26

internet speeds means next level

0:29

productivity. Whether it's back to school,

0:31

back to work, or back to reality,

0:33

don't let slow internet slow you down. Instead,

0:36

choose Breeze Line and go boss mode with

0:39

next level internet and faster speeds

0:41

backed by a fiber-powered network so

0:44

you can level up your day and champion

0:46

every quest. Now that's Breeze Line.

0:49

Terms and conditions apply. Go to breezeline.com

0:51

to learn more. In the early 19th century, before

0:53

we had social media

0:55

and ways to get information quickly, one of the best ways

0:57

to win an election was to spread the rumor that

1:00

your opponent was dead. And that's really

1:02

hard to push back on. You know, no, I'm alive.

1:05

Well, yeah, prove you're alive, right? So

1:07

it's not like this is anything new, but

1:09

one of the things that fascinates me in this moment is

1:11

we know that political theorists very

1:14

deliberately came up with a theory for how

1:16

you get people to abandon democracy. And

1:19

that's what we're gonna talk about today. How do you get people to

1:21

abandon democracy? And you do it

1:23

by the creation of virtual politics

1:25

or political technology, which is literally

1:27

a blueprint for creating a false

1:30

reality that make people think they're

1:32

voting for things they are not. False

1:34

candidates, disinformation, throw

1:36

shit at the wall the way Steve Bannon talked about.

1:39

There's these steps to make this happen.

1:41

But there was never a theoretical

1:44

framework for what happens when people recognize

1:47

what has been done to them. And that

1:49

I think we have seen before, and I think we're

1:51

seeing it now. And that is that once

1:53

you've used those tools of technology

1:56

against a population, they reclaim

1:58

them for themselves.

2:00

I'm Jon Favreau. Welcome to offline. That

2:06

was Heather Cox Richardson historian

2:08

and writer of letters from an American the

2:11

most read and subscribed newsletter

2:13

on Substack reaching over a million

2:15

readers every day She

2:17

stopped by for a fantastic conversation about her

2:19

new book democracy awakening We

2:21

also talked about why authoritarianism is

2:23

appealing and why she's still hopeful about

2:25

the future of American democracy spoiler

2:28

one reason is Of course Taylor

2:31

Swift. You'll hear that conversation

2:33

a little bit later But first Max

2:35

and I are gonna talk about our favorite topics social

2:39

media and Matt Gaetz Our

2:43

boy this is what we talk about when the

2:45

mics are off, you know, just that's a medium

2:48

We're just sending each other gates tweets all days.

2:51

It's like did you see this one? We've got it. You got a good one

2:53

off. They got it. He got a good misinformation off

2:55

today I was really hoping you were gonna say Heather

2:57

Cox Richardson's reason that she

2:59

was optimistic about democracy was the Incredible

3:02

quality of podcasting these days is

3:04

the thing that is going to carry us through that's what I

3:07

feel I mean, yeah, that's

3:09

look that's our story. We're sticking to it this

3:11

week Axios reports that over the last

3:14

year referral traffic from social media

3:16

Giants Facebook and Twitter to

3:18

digital media publishers has plummeted

3:21

Digi-day also reported that between August of 2022

3:23

and August of 2023 The

3:25

New York Times saw their referral traffic from Facebook

3:28

dropped 66% buzzfeed

3:30

saw theirs dropped 72% Ryan

3:33

Broderick reported in his newsletter that the top

3:35

news article quote-unquote news

3:38

article on Facebook last month was

3:40

from the website Christian fundamentalism

3:42

calm with the headline do

3:45

Catholics find life by being

3:47

pleasing to God Not this

3:49

Catholic. That's for sure That's

3:52

a great newsletter Max

3:55

what happened to all the social media traffic? What's

3:57

what's going on? So this is a

3:59

trailer that has been really building

4:02

for like several years now, like five, six,

4:04

seven years, people in news organizations have

4:06

been noticing that not just Facebook, but all social

4:08

platforms have been directing consistently

4:10

less and less traffic

4:12

to news sites across the board. And

4:15

this year seemed to be the year that it like, it truly

4:17

ended. Like the era when social media

4:20

was a primary or the primary

4:22

driver of traffic to news sites. And so

4:24

like drove a lot of news consumption in the

4:26

world has at least for now come to

4:29

an end and the

4:29

like change kind of, I think

4:32

the big moment was about five years ago

4:34

for a long time, of course, social platforms deliberately

4:37

built themselves up as promoting

4:39

a lot of news links because they wanted to be the like central

4:41

clearing house for all everything, including

4:44

a lot of news discussion. And that included putting

4:46

a lot of news links in front of people. But starting

4:49

in like 2018, Facebook is one of the

4:51

first big ones to come

4:53

to the conclusion that they could

4:55

generate a lot more traffic and a lot more time

4:58

on site by instead of

5:00

putting news links in front of people, but

5:02

directing them to internal discussions

5:05

on the platform that they could recycle them through over

5:07

and over again. So it used to be that like, if Facebook

5:09

thought you were interested in democratic

5:12

politics, they would show you posts

5:14

from your friends or pages you follow showing like CNN

5:16

links about democratic politics. But instead,

5:19

they made this very deliberate change that

5:21

they talked about openly at the time to their algorithm

5:23

within which show people links

5:26

to Facebook groups, or Facebook

5:28

pages where they would talk about,

5:30

you know, whatever the topic was that

5:32

they were interested in. And,

5:35

you know, Adam Masseri was running

5:37

newsfeed at the time is now running Instagram was like,

5:39

we think that this is just like a better way to keep

5:41

people on site. But what that meant

5:44

is downgrading the likelihood

5:46

that you were going to see links to

5:49

news sites, which has an effect for the

5:51

dues business, but it also has a big effect for people

5:54

on the social platforms because people have an innate

5:56

desire to learn and talk and

5:58

think about the news regardless. us of whether they

6:00

are seeing the link. So the thing that happened

6:03

on Facebook and every other platform is

6:05

once they took the news links away, people were

6:07

still talking about politics, but it was like, instead

6:10

of hearing from CNN, you would hear from like

6:12

whatever was the like, loudest

6:14

shit poster in the Facebook group you

6:16

were being referred to. So misinformation

6:19

shot way up, the discussions became much

6:21

more polarized and polarizing. And

6:24

it's something we know due to Facebook's own internal

6:26

research that was leaked by Francis Howgen, like they know this

6:28

is happening, they did it anyway. And I think the other

6:30

big change in the last year or two that is like really

6:33

cemented this for good is the wave

6:35

of new regulations that Facebook

6:37

and other platforms are seeing internationally

6:40

that is telling them that they have to start paying

6:42

news companies for outbound links.

6:44

So they're saying, well, if we have to pay regulatory

6:47

taxes for linking to CNN, fuck it, we

6:49

just won't link to CNN.

6:51

So the social media sites

6:53

now, particularly Facebook, basically

6:57

just want to be the comments section. Without

7:01

the article at the top. Yeah, without the article. So you

7:03

used to read the article, then people would talk in the comment section.

7:05

Now they're just like, who needs the news? Who

7:07

needs well-researched journalism and reporting?

7:10

Let's just rely on everyone's fucking takes.

7:13

The thing that blows

7:15

my mind about this change is they initially

7:17

test launched it in like three

7:20

or four small developing

7:22

countries as a way to like see what happened. And

7:25

one of them was Sri Lanka and

7:27

immediately what happened was for a lot

7:29

of complicated reasons, but partly because of this is there

7:31

were huge race riots across the country because when

7:33

the news went away, what people were doing instead

7:35

was posting like racist misinformation

7:37

and hate speech.

7:39

So we decided to talk

7:41

about this a couple of days ago

7:43

and then like after we decided to

7:46

talk about it, Elon Musk made

7:48

another change that is most certainly going

7:51

to reduce traffic from

7:53

digital publishers. So Elon

7:55

just removed automatically generated headlines

7:58

from links to external websites. So

8:00

what that means is when you scroll through

8:02

Twitter, you can only see the image

8:05

associated with the story and not

8:07

the headline That would tell you what the fuck

8:09

the story is about. Is that gonna

8:11

help publishers with their traffic issues? must

8:14

must tweeted must tweeted about this

8:16

this week our Algorithm tries to

8:18

optimize time spent on X So

8:21

links don't get as much attention because there is

8:23

less time spent if people click away So

8:25

exactly what you were saying about Facebook

8:28

now he's trying to do the same thing with X. He doesn't

8:30

want people to click away from Twitter

8:34

He wants people to stay on Twitter and have their whole all their

8:36

fights on Twitter Without

8:38

clicking and going to the New York Times the

8:40

Washington Post or CNN or any kind of news site

8:43

to read the read the story

8:45

Yeah, and it's also like it's

8:47

probably not irrelevant that he has been very

8:50

open about hating the news media So the

8:52

idea that something that will like punish

8:55

those Liberal media cocks

8:57

by like making it harder for them to get links Even though

8:59

Twitter has not meaningfully driven traffic to new sites

9:02

for years I'm sure was appealing

9:04

to him and I think there's also just a

9:06

healthy degree of like anytime something happens

9:08

with Twitter I feel like you have to factor in like there's probably

9:10

just some chaos Factor that

9:12

are driving this or just like dumb design

9:14

decisions that are not thought through because

9:17

Elon had a whim Which is something we've heard about

9:19

so many changes there

9:21

What do you think this means for digital

9:23

publishers? Right because you got the

9:25

New York Times of the world who they have their subscribers

9:28

and and they probably don't depend

9:31

as much on traffic

9:33

from Facebook and to a lesser extent

9:36

Twitter but Smaller

9:38

medium-sized news outlets special

9:40

digital news outlets probably do like how

9:42

do you get your stories in front of people if? social

9:45

media Makes it harder and

9:47

harder to do so

9:49

Yeah, I have been thinking a lot about

9:51

and I don't know if maybe you found this when you

9:54

guys started crooked but I've

9:56

been thinking a lot about when we started Vox like

9:59

God, I can't believe it was 10 years ago. Jesus

10:02

Christ. I'm

10:04

so old. Like,

10:08

yeah, we reached the I'm so old portion of the

10:10

podcast. It feels like it's been a hundred.

10:12

So, like 10

10:16

years ago when we started Vox,

10:18

like for all the ways that

10:20

like platforms like Facebook and Reddit have had a

10:22

negative impact, it was very easy for us

10:24

to very quickly reach a large audience because

10:27

we could figure out how to not

10:29

of course,

10:29

not how to steer the reporting, but how to like frame

10:32

the headline or like how to like promote

10:35

things on Facebook and Reddit that would get us a big

10:37

audience so we could start a new site out

10:39

of nowhere and reach a lot of people

10:41

initially. And then hopefully those people would like

10:43

what they saw and then they would start coming back on their own.

10:45

And that is going to get much tougher. I do

10:48

think that there is a lot of experimentation

10:50

right now in the media on other ways

10:53

to reach readers, partly because like everyone

10:55

has seen the writing on the wall for years. And

10:57

the big thing for the last years has been chasing

11:00

Google traffic. You probably already noticed that. Like

11:02

if you go to the New York Times homepage

11:04

now, you will see where you used to see

11:06

three stories about the latest news events. You'll

11:08

see nine because like Google

11:11

selects for that as opposed to like Facebook selects

11:13

more for like writing a hooky profile

11:16

or like writing a really talky story. So,

11:18

you know, these changes

11:21

in the social media ecosystem,

11:23

the internet ecosystem, they do change

11:26

the kind of work that news outlets do.

11:28

I don't think that it's ever led to them

11:30

like cynically chasing clicks. I don't think it's

11:32

that, but whatever is the thing

11:35

people will find to replace that

11:37

traffic or that revenue. In many cases of

11:39

a lot of outlets like us, like Crooked, you're

11:41

trying to build a core audience who will want to subscribe

11:43

to something that does change what

11:46

you invest in and it does change

11:48

the kind of stories that you produce.

11:50

So unfortunately, journalists are

11:52

going to have to record themselves

11:54

doing the latest viral TikTok

11:57

thing and then say, check out,

11:59

check out. the link to my reporting.

12:02

Just get in on the algorithm

12:04

that way. I don't know. I've

12:06

always been doing viral dance

12:08

trends to explain the war in Ukraine.

12:11

So I came to this naturally. That's just

12:13

my style really fits to this. You

12:15

are made for this new era. This is the

12:18

MAGS for sure opportunity. The

12:20

38-year-olds, yeah, really, are really, I've

12:22

always been thriving. Well,

12:25

we shouldn't worry too much because one person is still

12:27

finding clicks, at least. Congressman

12:29

Matt Gaetz this week shit posted

12:32

Kevin McCarthy out of the house speakership following

12:34

the passage of a bipartisan continuing resolution

12:36

to keep the government open. Gaetz attacked Kevin

12:39

on Twitter and all over MAGA media, ultimately

12:41

orchestrating a historic vote that

12:43

cost McCarthy his job. Max,

12:46

what do you think the Matt Gaetz speaker

12:49

saga says about the political

12:51

power of right-wing shitposters?

12:53

So I am actually so

12:56

excited to talk about this because I think

12:58

that this seriously- Because you love Matt Gaetz

13:00

so much. I've

13:03

got so many Matt Gaetz tweets lined up to

13:05

quote to you. I

13:07

think that this is actually like a little glimpse

13:09

into something that I find super fascinating

13:11

and that once I came to understand a few

13:14

years ago reporting on the change of democracy

13:16

unlocks so much for me. So okay, it

13:18

is not a coincidence that people

13:20

like Matt Gaetz, like the insurgents in the Republican

13:23

Party, or people like Donald Trump, the

13:25

big insurgents who are like the tear it all down people

13:27

are super online. And it's like, you'd

13:30

even say something kind of similar to the Democratic Party,

13:32

like obviously the OC is not the same, but like the

13:34

insurgents in the party tend to be pretty online.

13:37

And I don't think that's because like being

13:40

radicalized by the Twitter algorithm made

13:42

Matt Gaetz who he is or like made him

13:44

want to like tear down the party from within.

13:47

Rather, I think that the

13:50

fact that the insurgents, especially

13:52

in the Republican Party, but in both parties tend to be

13:54

very online, I think reflects this much

13:57

deeper like really seismic

13:59

transformation.

13:59

of change and how our

14:02

democracy works. And this change has been

14:04

going on over the last 10 years. So

14:06

okay, the way democracy worked

14:09

for like the first two, I promise,

14:12

I know this is going to be quick, I promise. It'll

14:14

be interesting. It's how I preface

14:16

all my stories. That's how you know, no. It's

14:19

like, you

14:23

know, it's a good joke when you have to explain it. Listen,

14:26

you had me on here, so this is on you. So

14:30

okay, so like, I really think this is

14:32

democracy for the first like 200 years,

14:35

like its entire history, the way

14:38

that it functioned was that

14:40

the like

14:41

bounds of acceptable democracy and acceptable

14:44

politics were set and enforced by

14:46

these like institutional gatekeepers, right?

14:48

Like chiefly political parties, like the political

14:50

parties would decide who

14:53

got to run for office, who got nominated, they

14:55

control fundraising, they control messaging.

14:58

And so they like determine what kind

15:00

of politician you can be, who can hold office. And

15:02

then to a lesser extent, the mainstream media also

15:04

does this by determining like who gets written

15:07

about as a legitimate candidate or who gets to

15:09

reach people at all because they control politicians ability

15:12

to reach people. And also like

15:14

organized groups like organized labor,

15:16

big business that control the funding

15:19

or donations for candidates. So that was how it

15:21

always worked. But and I'm sure you know

15:23

something about this in 2008, like 10, 15 years ago, that started

15:27

to completely collapse and has been

15:29

collapsing even though it's hard to clock because

15:31

it's such a big change has been collapsing

15:34

completely before our eyes

15:36

where those institutional gatekeepers no longer

15:38

have that control. And it's for two reasons.

15:41

One is that the United States, which is pretty much

15:43

alone in this started allowing

15:45

primary voters instead of the parties

15:48

to select who runs for office,

15:50

we're almost completely alone in the democratic world.

15:52

And who does that? It's just pretty much just the UK, the only

15:54

ones who have open primaries, everybody else, the party

15:57

picks to run for office. But the other big one is the

15:59

internet. Because the internet means that

16:01

if you are an insurgent, someone who is

16:03

running against the party instead of running with support,

16:06

you don't need the party to reach voters.

16:09

You don't need the party to fundraise. You can

16:11

just fundraise on your road through the internet. And you

16:13

don't need the mainstream media's approval to

16:15

reach those primary voters who are the ones who are going to

16:18

elect you. And what you need in

16:20

this new world is to

16:22

get attention. And because

16:24

everything is about attention, that's what

16:27

social media values, that's what the internet values

16:30

and the way to get attention is

16:32

whether it's positive or negative, doesn't matter.

16:35

You've got to be louder. You've got to be more

16:37

extreme. It incentivizes

16:40

insurgencies. It incentivizes

16:42

all kinds of clownish behavior that we've seen from

16:44

the Republican party. It incentivizes

16:47

more extreme politics. Look,

16:49

I mean, you brought up 2008. There are

16:52

the cases where Barack

16:54

Obama's rise was, he was

16:56

very inspirational. And I think hope

16:59

and humor and inspiration, that

17:02

gets you some attention as well. But the easier

17:04

route to attention is just saying

17:07

a bunch of shit. So

17:10

to prepare for this, Austin Emma

17:12

sent us a GQ profile of

17:14

Matt Gaetz from 2018. And

17:19

in that profile, he said, the organizing

17:22

principle of today's politics is

17:24

stay interesting. Which

17:27

honestly, Matt Gaetz, genius. I

17:29

know, he's not wrong. That

17:32

is the organizing principle of today's politics, and it is

17:34

the organizing principle of the internet and social

17:36

media. And I thought there was a funny

17:38

piece of color in this profile. They

17:40

said, just inside the door to Gaetz's

17:43

congressional office, this was at least in 2018, a

17:45

flat screen monitor mounted on the wall displays

17:48

the congressman's mentions on Twitter,

17:51

streaming in real time. That's

17:55

amazing. I mean, it is, it's like,

17:57

I think that he is right about

17:59

that.

17:59

And the people that he has to stay interesting

18:02

for are Republican primary

18:04

voters in his district.

18:07

That's what he's, instead of having to work for the

18:09

party and what's good for them, he has to

18:11

work for what those primary voters want

18:13

to see, what's going to get their attention. And we know that

18:15

primary voters in both parties tend

18:17

to be way more online. So it's

18:19

this thing now where you have people who are online

18:22

talking to other and working for some small

18:25

pool of voters in their districts who are also

18:27

super online. And you see how that is a

18:30

really transformational change in incentives where

18:33

it's not a mec gate's interest for the Republican

18:35

party, much less Congress or

18:37

the United States government to be successful. What's

18:40

in his interest, and this is true to so many

18:42

insertants of the party now, is just to hold

18:45

on to the eyeballs of super

18:47

online primary voters.

18:49

Yeah. And that is why Donald Trump is

18:51

the leading Republican nominee. And

18:53

you know what? His latest thing

18:56

about windmills driving

18:58

the wheels crazy, it got my attention.

19:00

I paid attention to it. Great content. I

19:03

don't think I'm going to vote for him though. No, I think

19:05

I'm off the fence at this

19:07

point. I've decided against it. But

19:10

look at Trump for Speaker, Trump going to the

19:12

Hill next week to maybe

19:14

float himself for Speaker. Maybe he will, maybe

19:16

he won't. Trump goes and sits in the trial,

19:18

right? He's on trial. He didn't have to

19:20

be there, but he's there. He's talking to the cameras.

19:23

Is it negative attention? Absolutely. But

19:25

what do people hear? They hear Trump, Trump, Trump. And

19:27

Gates took that lesson, right? And now he's

19:30

deposed one Speaker, and now

19:32

it's Jim Jordan versus Steve Scalise at

19:35

this taping at the very least. And

19:37

Steve Scalise, more of like an institutionalist,

19:41

still very right-wing conservative, but like

19:44

kind of a party guy. And Jim Jordan,

19:47

more appearances on Fox

19:49

News than any other member of Congress

19:52

over the last several years. So is

19:54

it no wonder that the guy who John

19:56

Boehner once called a political terrorist is now

19:59

like

19:59

possibility for speaker of the house because

20:02

what does he have he has the base because he's very

20:04

online right right and that stuff And

20:07

that divide is not going away. I mean

20:09

that divide in the Republican Party where you have some

20:11

of them are Loyal

20:14

to and have to work for the party

20:16

institutions and some who have to go which

20:18

you know The Republicans have also I know

20:21

this is like all the story the Republican Party

20:23

have like dug their own graves by gerrymandering

20:25

these districts to hell So

20:27

now the people who you know someone

20:30

like Matt Gates has to win is the primary

20:32

electorate He doesn't have to worry about the general So it's

20:34

it's the like most extreme people in the

20:37

party are the ones who he

20:39

is completely in Hawk to and I mean It

20:42

really is two parties at this point and that's also kind

20:44

of true of the Democratic Party But of course they have

20:46

the I think so far we've seen they're like

20:48

professionalism in the interest to

20:55

Well, if this has bummed you all

20:57

out don't worry because next up I

20:59

had a great and surprisingly hopeful

21:02

conversation with Heather Cox Richardson about

21:04

the future of American democracy She's

21:06

a professor of American history at Boston College writer

21:09

of letters from an American substacks most popular

21:11

newsletter and author of democracy Awakening

21:14

notes on the state of America, which is a new book

21:16

out last week. It was a fantastic conversation

21:18

max You'll you'll like it I'm

21:20

really glad that she is speaking to so many people that

21:23

she has such a big and dedicated audience

21:25

to like really talk people

21:27

through What's happening why

21:29

it's happening how to think critically about it? I feel

21:31

against the it's the kind of knowledge that really gives

21:33

you a sense of like Agency and like

21:35

having a handle on what's going on.

21:37

Yeah, and it's kind of a moment. I Have

21:41

over the last you know, however long we've been in

21:43

this sort of Trump era Hell been

21:45

thinking about like how much of this have

21:47

we seen before in history? How much is new,

21:49

you know and she does a great job in

21:52

her newsletter and in the book talking about The

21:54

appeal of authoritarianism over time and

21:57

the appeal of the argument over time and then why

21:59

democracy works And I think what one

22:01

of the things we land on is that what's new today

22:04

is or at least one thing that's new today Is

22:06

technology and the internet and social

22:08

media and that has changed

22:11

politics and the allure of authoritarianism

22:14

and the challenges of democracy in Many

22:17

of the ways that you and I have talked about on this show So

22:20

I can't wait to hear your thoughts before we go to break two

22:22

quick housekeeping notes as you know We're big fans

22:25

of karaoke. They make cool eco-friendly shoes

22:27

that we basically wear 24-7 We

22:29

are excited some of us are excited to be releasing our

22:31

second collaboration with them Karyuma

22:34

and love it or leave it just kidding. It's great. The shoes

22:36

are really cool There's just something about fall that

22:38

makes you want to get new shoes So why not get

22:40

ones made with organic cotton canvas natural rubber

22:42

cork and recycled plastics? It

22:45

doesn't hurt that they have tiny surfing dogs on

22:47

them. It like is it pundit? Is it not

22:49

pundit? It looks like pundit. It's really cool. They

22:51

come in pink and black and feature a whimsical scene They'll

22:54

absolutely put some pep in your step plus

22:56

carry him a plants two trees in the Brazilian rainforest

22:58

for each pair purchased run Don't

23:01

walk but not until you get a pair of shoes at

23:03

cricket comm slash store Enjoy

23:06

new and old pod save America episodes completely

23:08

ad free when you subscribe to crickets friend of

23:10

the pod community. That's right No

23:12

distractions. No fast-forwarding just

23:15

sweet sweet takes and insights into the power

23:17

structures that shape our world perfect

23:19

for binge listening Do

23:21

people do that I don't want to know head to cricket

23:23

comm slash friends to learn more up

23:26

next Heather Cox virgin This

23:36

fall use steel power to tackle all

23:38

your outdoor chores with dependable chainsaws

23:40

blowers trimmers and more right

23:42

now get a chainsaw carrying case chain

23:45

and hat a $100 value for

23:47

free with purchase of select steel chainsaws

23:50

real steel Find yours at steel dealers

23:52

comm valid October 1st 2023 through

23:55

December 30th 2023 at participating

23:57

retailers while supplies last

24:00

Offline is brought to you by the Body Electric podcast

24:02

from NPR. Every day

24:04

we're in a silent battle with our devices, devices

24:06

that are slowing and still fully draining us. Our

24:09

biology is changing to meet the demands of the information

24:11

age, but why and what can we do about it?

24:13

If you're interested in finding the answers to these questions

24:15

and more, you have to listen to the Body Electric podcast

24:18

on NPR. Body Electric is an interactive

24:20

six-part series that investigates how our

24:22

relationship with technology is impacting our health.

24:24

From nearsightedness and mass psychogenic

24:27

illnesses to type 2 diabetes rates, doubling

24:29

and young people, Body Electric is partnering

24:31

with Columbia Medical School to find out why. Body

24:33

Electric touches on topics like tips for parents, mental

24:35

health, debunking popular beliefs and

24:38

provides a feel-good tone with solutions

24:40

you can take part in. With the mounting pressures

24:42

of today's society, Body Electric strives to help

24:44

lighten your load mentally and physically.

24:48

Look, this sounds like a perfect podcast for anyone

24:50

who listens to this one. We've been talking about

24:53

our silent battle with our devices for a long time here.

24:55

Sounds like a fantastic series to check out. Listen

24:58

now to Body Electric on TED Radio Hour from

25:00

NPR wherever you get your podcasts.

25:03

Etsy has it everyone. Yes, it's

25:06

true. Etsy is where style seekers,

25:08

vintage hunters, longtime renters and

25:10

new homeowners alike go to shop for style,

25:13

home decor and gifts from independent

25:15

sellers. Shop signature jackets,

25:17

jewelry, artwork, furniture, rugs

25:19

and more. This is your invitation

25:22

to find what your style-seeking home upgrading

25:24

heart desires. Find home, style

25:26

and gifts for you for all budgets and

25:28

any occasion. Shop at Etsy.com

25:31

today. Etsy has it.

25:38

Heather Cox Richardson, welcome to offline. Oh, it's

25:40

a pleasure to be here. So for people who don't

25:42

know, you are a professor of history at Boston

25:45

College who has become the most successful

25:47

author on Substack. You now have over

25:49

a million subscribers to your newsletter called

25:52

Letters from an American, which grew out of essays

25:54

you posted on Facebook, which I first heard

25:57

about from my mom, which is how I know you were

25:59

popular because my mom. is not as much of a political

26:01

junkie as her son. So how did all

26:03

this start and what were you trying

26:05

to do in those early essays?

26:07

So it really did start as

26:09

a way to answer questions. People were asking

26:12

me on Facebook about politics because

26:14

I'm a political historian and I

26:16

study Congress and I study the president, but

26:18

because I do American history, it's short enough

26:20

that you have a lot of control over a lot of

26:22

material. So I'm pretty good on

26:25

most things, a little week on opera but otherwise

26:27

I'm okay. And people

26:30

were asking me questions about what was happening in 2019 and

26:32

I just started answering

26:35

them. And I had been writing about once

26:37

a week on Facebook a general essay

26:40

either about politics or about life or

26:42

about some aspect of American history I liked.

26:44

And on September 15,

26:46

2019, I wrote about what I thought the world looked like

26:48

to me at that moment. Students poured

26:51

in and I thought, well, I hate to clog the

26:53

airwaves, but I'll just go ahead one more day

26:55

and answer what people have to say. And

26:57

I've been writing every single night since.

26:59

Wow. So there has

27:01

been no shortage of historians,

27:04

democracy experts, scholars,

27:07

writing about democracy in the Trump era.

27:10

What do you think it is about your writing that gained you

27:12

such a large audience so quickly?

27:14

Well, of course, you never know when you're the person

27:16

doing the writing. And I

27:18

guess if I had to guess, I would say

27:21

it's that I am interested

27:23

in establishing a reality-based community.

27:26

So what I'm really trying to do is actually explain

27:29

to people, not tell them how to vote, nothing else,

27:31

but just simply say, this is

27:33

what happened. Here's how the rules work.

27:36

This is what people are doing. And this is how it

27:38

fits in the larger scheme of American history.

27:41

Can you talk about the difference between how

27:43

people generally get their news

27:46

each day and how you

27:48

try to explain the day's events

27:50

to your audiences? Because it feels to

27:52

me like such an antidote

27:55

to much of what is, I

27:57

think, wrong with a lot

27:59

of media coverage.

27:59

Well, it's so funny you asked that

28:02

or put it that way because I did

28:04

try for a while to watch television news,

28:06

which I hadn't done since I've had my

28:08

own children. And I was

28:11

actually at the time dating a man who is now my husband.

28:13

And I did notice that after a few times

28:15

at his house with me screaming at the television, he

28:17

stopped

28:17

watching the news.

28:20

Because the stories would have changed, you know,

28:22

by the time that they were actually being aired, the

28:24

story was something entirely different. So

28:27

all I try and do is to

28:29

explain what's happening and put

28:31

it in a larger context. And also

28:34

not to speculate about what's going to happen

28:36

next. The word might or

28:38

may just drives me bonkers

28:40

because I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. But

28:43

I can put you on pretty solid ground for what happened

28:45

today and remind you of how it fit

28:47

in a larger story so that you don't

28:49

end up feeling like everything's just coming at you

28:52

like, you know, from every direction

28:54

you instead sort of feel like you're part of a longer

28:57

story that tells, that

28:59

gives you a picture of the way the world really is. In

29:02

a way it's kind of like a, I hate to say this, but in a way it's kind

29:04

of like those old fashioned soap

29:08

operas where, you know, they're long running,

29:10

but there's the recurring characters and

29:12

there's the recurring themes. And at

29:14

the end of the day, it gives you a picture of a town. It's

29:17

just my town is the United States of America.

29:18

I mean, it does seem like

29:21

one of the biggest problems with

29:24

media coverage today, particularly political media

29:26

coverage, is sort of the lack of context.

29:29

That this is sort of at the core of what's missing

29:32

from our understanding of politics in the world around

29:34

us. And I think the cable

29:37

news started it. And now I think

29:39

the internet and especially social media just

29:42

strips everything of context. And I don't know

29:44

how we continue

29:47

to have a functioning democracy

29:50

if we're

29:52

constantly getting a stream of information

29:54

and news about the day that

29:56

is just stripped of all historical context

29:58

or any context, really.

29:59

Well, it's almost as if it's always a horse

30:02

race or always a ball game. And

30:04

there is an assumption that people understand

30:06

the ins and outs of the ball game. Like you

30:08

can't really watch baseball and feel

30:10

like you have a handle on it if all you know is

30:13

somebody's hitting the ball and somebody's not hitting the ball.

30:15

You sort of need to know the players and you need to know the rules

30:18

and you need to know who's injured and you need to know who the manager

30:20

is. And you know, I'm trying

30:22

to make sure people know all of those things

30:24

about American society. And that

30:27

makes it a much more interesting story as well

30:29

as a much more meaningful one, I think.

30:32

I wanted to start with these questions about your

30:34

style of writing as a way into a larger discussion

30:36

about democracy because I know that you

30:38

see a lot of power in language and

30:41

storytelling as I do. And

30:44

one of the challenges I've been wrestling

30:46

with for most of my career, especially

30:48

since 2016, has been

30:50

how those of us who believe deeply

30:53

in democracy and the American democratic experiment

30:56

can tell a better, more persuasive

30:58

story than authoritarians like Trump,

31:01

who've always seemed, at least to

31:03

me, to have an easier

31:06

sales job and a simpler story to

31:08

tell. So I guess I'll start there. What

31:10

does history tell us about why people

31:13

find the authoritarian appeal so

31:15

persuasive?

31:16

Well, that is a very simple story. And

31:19

this is not new to me. Scholars of authoritarianism

31:22

will tell you that the way an authoritarian

31:24

rises is he, because it's almost

31:26

always a he, finds a population

31:28

that feels itself to have been dispossessed

31:30

either economically or religiously or

31:32

culturally or socially and says, listen,

31:36

I know that you feel like you've been left

31:38

out. And the reason for that is,

31:40

and while a responsible

31:42

politician would say because of this series of

31:44

policies and so on, the strong

31:46

man simply says the reason this has happened is

31:48

because of them and

31:50

who them is doesn't matter so much as you

31:53

use that foil to weld your

31:55

group into a group that feels grievance

31:58

and that it's willing to back you to make things be

32:00

great again, to make America great again,

32:02

as it were. And the trick to

32:04

that is once people believe

32:06

that you, the strong man, are going

32:08

to return the nation to a series of

32:10

rules that are divine

32:13

or laid down by nature,

32:15

rules that your opponents are refusing to enact,

32:18

once they've done that, they have started to commit to you.

32:21

And once you start to treat those other

32:23

people badly, they internalize

32:27

their identity as being associated

32:29

with you, so that once you have committed violence

32:32

against somebody, either rhetorical or actual,

32:34

against those others, they have bought

32:37

into it. And it becomes harder and harder

32:39

and harder for them to give that up. So the worse

32:41

a strong man behaves, the more tightly

32:43

they cling to him.

32:45

Historically, how much has authoritarianism

32:48

been driven by larger cultural

32:51

and economic conditions and how much

32:53

has been driven by the emergence of a

32:56

particularly talented demagogue?

32:58

So there's a great book that's written in 1951

33:00

by a longshoreman in San Francisco, a guy named Eric

33:03

Hoffer. And everybody after World War II is

33:05

madly trying to figure out where Hitler and Mussolini came

33:07

from. He says, who cares? Every

33:10

generation has Hitler's and Mussolini's, but

33:12

they never get anywhere. The question is, why

33:14

does the population embrace those

33:16

people? When I read that, I thought that was

33:19

absolutely earth shattering, because of course, what you

33:21

really need to look at is not those leaders,

33:24

it's their followers. Why did they buy

33:26

in? And the answer, at least as far

33:28

as scholars of authoritarianism

33:31

have unpacked, is precisely

33:33

that. A population follows a strong

33:35

man when he promises to return them to a prominence

33:38

that they felt they used to have. And he's

33:40

going to do that by putting in place these laws

33:42

that will make

33:44

them great again and hurt their enemies.

33:47

Obviously, there have been times when

33:49

Americans have gone to war

33:52

against fascist authoritarian governments

33:54

or movements, World War II, civil

33:56

war in our own country. Aside from

33:59

the 20... 2020 election, what

34:01

are some examples of Americans beating back

34:03

the threat of fascism without taking up

34:05

arms?

34:08

The late 19th century is,

34:10

although I'm always a little bit dicey when we say

34:12

without taking up arms because those were very violent

34:15

times as well. Yeah. But you mean

34:17

in terms of armies and fighting

34:17

against armies. Yeah.

34:19

So the idea, if you really

34:21

stripped down what we're talking about here,

34:23

we're talking about two ways of organizing the world.

34:26

We're talking about on the one hand, a

34:28

society that believes everybody should be treated equally

34:31

before the law and the people within it should have a say

34:33

in their government. Standing against

34:35

them, we have those people who say some people

34:37

are really better than others and they have

34:39

a right and maybe even a duty to rule

34:42

over the rest of everybody else. And

34:44

while you can call that latter thing different things

34:46

and sometimes in some areas we call it fascism,

34:48

in some areas we call it the rise of

34:50

the slave power, and in the late 19th

34:53

century we call it the robber barons. Those

34:55

are always people who are arguing that

34:58

some people really are better than the rest of

35:00

us and they really should be in charge of things. So

35:03

what happens in the United States

35:05

in each of those eras that I just mentioned, the

35:07

1850s, the late 19th

35:09

century, the 1920s, again

35:11

rising now, is you get a

35:13

very few wealthy people taking over the political

35:15

system. And in the late 19th

35:18

century, as that happened, we got all the

35:20

normal hallmarks of how that works.

35:23

We got society saying that Andrew Carnegie

35:25

was the best thing since sliced bread. We get the laws

35:28

making it possible for monopolies to form.

35:30

We get the idea that anybody who is

35:33

objecting to working in a factory for pennies

35:35

is somehow undermining American society.

35:37

We get all the trappings and

35:40

yet we get a period in which Americans

35:42

come together to push back against that

35:44

and to instate very quickly what we know

35:47

as the progressive era, simply by saying

35:49

this is not what the United States is supposed to

35:51

stand for. And by taking over the political

35:53

system.

35:54

You write a lot about history rhyming

35:56

and I'm always trying to figure out what

35:59

aspect

35:59

of this moment. Don't rhyme

36:02

with anything else we've heard in American

36:04

history. What do you think? What feels new

36:06

and different about this era? Two

36:08

things.

36:09

Although both of them are simply

36:13

exaggerations of things we've seen

36:15

in the past and then one thing in a big way.

36:18

The two things, first of all, are

36:20

the degree of social media control

36:23

over our language. That is, we've

36:26

always had disinformation in American society

36:28

but now we have it on steroids. The

36:31

other major thing that we've

36:33

had in the past that has grown much larger in the

36:35

present is the global concentration

36:38

of wealth. So we've always had concentration

36:41

of wealth but now it's not simply in the United States,

36:43

it's global. Now, the one thing that is

36:46

truly unique in this period is that

36:48

this is the first time in our history

36:50

in which one of the two major

36:52

political parties is rejecting democracy.

36:55

That's a biggie. That's the moment that

36:57

is unique here and it's one that

37:00

I hope will help us to articulate that

37:02

this is not in fact what we believe the United

37:04

States should stand for.

37:05

Why do you think this is the first time

37:08

in our history that one of the two major political

37:10

parties has rejected democracy?

37:13

That's a very long

37:16

answer here that I'm not going to give you all

37:18

of and it would be fun to unpack but

37:21

one of the things that you started with here was talking

37:23

about stories and one of

37:25

the things that FDR did so well was to

37:27

articulate why democracy mattered

37:30

and why it stood effectively against

37:32

fascism. He gives this phenomenal

37:34

speech after the fall of Rome in which

37:37

he really takes on that question and says

37:39

the fascists promised that they were going to give you

37:42

great jobs and great food and great families

37:44

and great churches and all that kind of stuff but at the end

37:46

of the day who's feeding the people in Italy?

37:49

It's these messy democracies that got

37:51

our acts together to stand against the fascists

37:53

and to make sure that people actually are living,

37:56

staying alive.

37:59

Defense of democracy was

38:02

so widespread that coming out of World War II

38:04

I think members of both political parties believed

38:06

that they could stop defending it and it's in

38:10

1960 of course we get Phil Converse is a Philip Converse

38:12

the name I'm sure you know a political scientist

38:15

who says would you all stop talking about democracy?

38:17

We all are agreed We don't have to talk about

38:19

this stuff any longer Instead what we need

38:22

to do to win elections is to nail together Coalition's

38:25

who will be able to pick people to put

38:27

in office depending on what they promise to

38:29

deliver to those constituencies And when

38:31

they did that I actually think

38:33

there was something important that happened in society

38:36

where people stopped feeling like their vote really mattered

38:38

for something bigger and with that

38:40

we had the rise of those Movement

38:43

conservatives saying wait a minute wait a minute We

38:45

can make your vote matter again We can

38:48

help you take back this nation for the

38:50

little guy against this creeping socialism

38:53

And you know I think one of the reasons we're here

38:55

in the moment We're in is because of that loss

38:57

of language and then with it What followed

39:00

was the taking over the mechanics

39:02

of our government through gerrymandering and voter Suppression

39:04

and the different mechanics of our system

39:07

to put what we really have now in place,

39:09

which is minority rule

39:11

Lots of language, and I also wonder if

39:13

it's a loss of memory I mean

39:16

there was a survey of 30 countries

39:19

out I think the Soros foundation did a little

39:22

while ago 71% of respondents

39:24

over the age of 56 said that democracy

39:27

is preferable to any other form of government That

39:29

drops to 57% of respondents between

39:31

the ages of 18 to 35 42% of

39:34

young people also said that army rule

39:36

is a good way of running a country and 35% of

39:39

young people said that having a Leader who doesn't hold elections

39:41

is a good way of running a country What do you

39:43

think is going on there with younger population?

39:46

Isn't this interesting and it's actually one of the things that

39:48

that makes me very sad and worries

39:50

me One of the things that I have

39:52

seen happening in my extraordinarily

39:55

long life

39:59

Is any time that the government

40:02

started to do something that was popular

40:05

With the majority of americans the republicans

40:07

called it socialism And

40:09

and you see that again and again and again I

40:12

was reading just the other day a piece that bill

40:14

o'riley who was a at the time a

40:16

a person on the fox news channel Was

40:19

saying about the affordable care act that

40:21

this is socialism come to america And what are we

40:23

going to do because people like socialism and socialism

40:26

is a bad thing So one of the questions

40:28

that you you just cited here a lot of people

40:30

might say well, you know I don't actually like like

40:32

this system of democracy. I quite like these

40:34

ideas of socialism Of course, that has nothing to do with what

40:36

socialism really is So there's that

40:39

but there is also the I think

40:41

the continual underpinning of our

40:44

civic rights if you

40:46

will But one of the other things you

40:48

mentioned here was the idea that army rule would be

40:50

a good thing There too We've seen the celebration

40:54

of the military as part of a

40:56

right-wing project as opposed to what it has

40:58

traditionally been in the united states A way

41:00

to keep us secure which is the primary

41:03

function of a government So a lot of it I think

41:05

is language that has taken people to a

41:07

place where they believe that the the very

41:09

guardrails Of our government of our democracy

41:12

are somehow unimportant and can be replaced

41:15

by these things that are embraced by by

41:17

a radical right wing You

41:19

mentioned social media one of

41:21

the reasons I started the show is because my big

41:23

worry is That almost every

41:26

shift In the way we communicate

41:28

and consume information over the last decade

41:31

or so Has made it much more difficult

41:33

to maintain a functioning democracy, which

41:35

requires us to pay attention Have

41:39

patience be open to other points of view

41:41

exist in a shared reality And

41:44

maybe most important to your line of work. Remember

41:46

Remember we're like what came before the

41:49

day's news cycle and Cable

41:51

news makes that hard. I think social media and

41:53

the internet make that hard I think the balkanization

41:56

of media in general make that hard. So

41:58

it's it's one thing to come up with a persuasive

42:01

story about American democracy, how

42:04

do we make sure enough people hear it at this point?

42:06

Because I do, when you talk to young people, I think part

42:08

of it is, there's also the speed of

42:10

information. And so there's

42:13

this desire for everything to be solved

42:15

immediately. Everyone's

42:18

instant gratification is something that technology

42:20

has brought us. And there's so much

42:22

noise and so much information getting thrown at people

42:24

that you can see why some young people

42:26

would say, okay. And it's interesting, because

42:28

that same survey I cited, high,

42:32

high percentages of young people, even

42:34

the ones who said like military rule might be a good

42:36

idea, high percentages still believe

42:39

in upholding individual rights. And

42:42

yet the system of, they're not connecting

42:44

it to a system of government because I wonder

42:47

if they see democratic governments

42:49

and the infighting and the arguing

42:51

that goes on in democracies is making the

42:54

government sclerotic and also like not

42:56

attentive to their needs.

42:58

Well, in terms of things

43:00

moving quickly, I will say, I see

43:02

what you're saying, but I will say it seems to

43:04

me to be reasonable to want the things to move

43:06

more quickly on things like gun

43:08

safety and on climate change. I mean, they

43:10

do have a point. Let's call it that.

43:14

So one

43:17

of the other things you mentioned though, was

43:20

the rash of social media

43:22

and how difficult it makes it to combat

43:24

disinformation, which is what you're saying. And I

43:27

remain hopeful on that front for two

43:29

reasons. Disinformation is not new. And

43:31

my favorite is that in the early

43:34

19th century, before we had social

43:36

media and ways to get information quickly, one

43:38

of the best ways to win an election was to

43:40

spread the rumor that your opponent was dead. And

43:43

that's really hard to push back on. No,

43:46

I'm alive. Well, you prove you're alive,

43:48

right? So it's not like this is

43:50

anything new. But one of the things that fascinates me

43:52

in this moment is we know that political

43:54

theorists very deliberately came up

43:56

with a theory for how you get people to abandon

43:59

democracy. And you do it by the creation

44:01

of virtual politics or political

44:03

technology, which is literally a

44:05

blueprint for creating a false

44:07

reality that make people think they're

44:10

voting for things they are not. False

44:12

candidates, disinformation,

44:14

throw shit at the wall the way Steve Bannon talked

44:16

about. There's these steps to make

44:18

this happen, but there

44:20

was never a theoretical framework

44:23

for what happens when people recognize what

44:25

has been done to them. And that

44:27

I think we have seen before and I think we're

44:29

seeing it now. And that is that once

44:31

you've used those tools of technology

44:33

against a population, they reclaim

44:36

them for themselves and they do something

44:38

very different with them. So you and I are having

44:40

this podcast right now, but one

44:42

of the things that has really jumped out to me recently,

44:45

and I really hate to do this to you, but

44:47

is Taylor Swift. Yeah. I mean, Taylor Swift

44:49

coming forward. I'm a fan. Okay. So

44:52

I'm actually going to be writing

44:52

about her recently because of this very thing. This

44:55

is somebody who is using the technologies that

44:57

have been used against democracy

44:59

for democracy

45:01

and they're using them in new and incredibly

45:03

innovative ways. And I think to the point

45:05

that most people who study this are not aware

45:08

of how much is going on in

45:10

areas that they're not even looking at.

45:12

In what ways do you think she's using those tools?

45:15

By getting people to register to vote. And

45:17

she's not telling people how to vote socially. She

45:19

is saying this is very important for our

45:21

democracy. And of course, she's not the only one, but

45:24

she's a very visible person in

45:26

this era to be doing that. And I think

45:29

considering her previous attempts to stay

45:32

out of politics, a really important sign,

45:34

of course, she's not by any means the only one.

45:36

I find that so interesting

45:38

because I have heard criticisms

45:40

from

45:41

liberals and Democrats that

45:45

she should be doing more. She should be saying more and

45:47

she's not putting out statements on every

45:50

political development that happens and she's not

45:52

being strong enough on this issue or this issue. And

45:54

I've always wondered, knowing

45:57

the difficulty she's had in the past.

46:00

being told not to get involved in politics,

46:02

I kind of thought it was a pretty big step that she was registering

46:04

voters. But I also do wonder

46:07

if it's a strategy, which sort of brings

46:09

me to other questions. We

46:14

have a country now where 46%, 47% of the population

46:16

has voted for Donald Trump not once

46:22

but twice. And I

46:24

always think about something the

46:27

author Marilynne Robinson said

46:29

to President Obama, which is that

46:31

the basis of democracy is the willingness

46:33

to assume well about other people. And

46:36

it makes sense to me, but I also struggle

46:39

with what to do with the millions and millions of

46:41

hardcore Trump fans who

46:44

are either living in a different reality as you spoke

46:46

about or are actively hostile

46:49

toward not just liberalism but democracy

46:51

itself. And even if

46:53

Trump loses again in 2024, how

46:55

do we coexist peacefully

46:58

with a radicalized faction?

47:01

I'm laughing because this is so unfair. We've gone

47:03

from Taylor Swift

47:04

to ... I know, we really did it real ...

47:06

And I keep thinking of answers the whole way. Let

47:09

me go back to Taylor Swift though, and the

47:12

poor woman who does not deserve me analyzing

47:14

her, but not simply

47:17

that she encouraged

47:19

people to register to vote, which is certainly a piece

47:21

of this. But her tour

47:24

that took place this summer was, I believe, the

47:26

highest-grossing tour of all time, is that correct? And

47:29

that tour was a very unusual tour

47:31

in that it was cross-generational. So

47:34

how many times have you seen a cross-generational

47:36

tour of women and their daughters, or

47:38

rather daughters and their mothers? And

47:41

that, I think, was a really important statement

47:43

about voices in this country. And

47:46

I always love when people aren't saying she's doing enough. Isn't

47:48

it fascinating how many people have a lot of opinions

47:51

about what other people should be doing? Taylor

47:53

Swift is a musician and

47:55

a songwriter, and she

47:57

is doing what she does best. In

48:00

that, she is, I think, advancing

48:03

a view of society by virtue

48:05

of who she is

48:05

attracting that is

48:08

important

48:08

to this moment, the idea that women of

48:11

all generations can operate together

48:14

to do something like elevate their

48:17

favorite person to the highest-grossing tour of all time.

48:19

Well, she also created, over the summer

48:22

and now, with the

48:24

crossover with NFL fans, a

48:26

real monocultural moment, which

48:29

I was talking about this on another episode

48:31

of Offline, is that we sort of don't have

48:33

a lot of these monocultural moments as

48:35

much anymore because of the balkanization

48:38

of the media, because everyone's getting their information

48:40

from so many different sources. And I wonder

48:43

if American democracy

48:45

needs more monocultural moments,

48:48

because I wonder if, like,

48:50

what is stitching us together right now? That

48:53

sort of worries me.

48:54

Well, it's a monocultural moment

48:56

that is not around Walter Cronkite. It's

48:58

around women, women changing

49:01

the world, women saying, this is what we want,

49:03

we don't care what your advisors told you, we are

49:05

making this the most profitable tour

49:08

of all time. So I think

49:10

that that matters, aside from,

49:12

yes, you should register to vote, but what that says

49:14

about society matters.

49:15

Oh, well, then the other thing is just talking

49:18

about what to do about the

49:20

now-radicalized faction, right? And

49:24

I'm not, you know, there's Trump voters, and I

49:26

sort of split them up between, there's Trump voters and there's Trump

49:28

fans, right? There's some people, you know, I've

49:31

talked to Obama Trump voters, there's

49:33

Trump voters who switched to Biden, right? So

49:36

those people seem persuadable. But,

49:38

you know, there's, whether it's the

49:40

people who stormed the Capitol on January 6th, whether

49:42

it's the people who show up at Israeli, the people who

49:44

are more inclined to commit political violence

49:47

these days, I don't quite know

49:49

what to do about a country where that

49:52

is a growing and vocal

49:54

faction. And I don't know if history

49:56

tells us anything about what we can

49:58

do.

49:59

I'm not buying growing.

50:00

Okay, that's good. So it's ... Maybe

50:03

just louder. Well,

50:03

they're very loud, which is, I think, actually

50:06

a sign that they're weakening, not growing, because

50:08

if you are in control, you don't have to shout. And

50:10

that's a really important distinction, because if you know

50:13

you've got the voters, you don't have to be out

50:15

there threatening people. I

50:17

mean, we don't have to discuss this because it's sort of obvious

50:20

on its face, right? And Trump has never won

50:22

a national election, even despite

50:25

all the things that the Republican Party has done since 1986

50:27

to suppress the vote of

50:29

people that they expect will vote against them. And

50:31

that really matters. If I hear one more pundit saying,

50:34

black people aren't turning up to vote. It's like, have y'all

50:36

looked at the laws? And

50:39

my friend Carol Anderson is really great on that.

50:41

But worth remembering always that 20%

50:45

of the people, you just have

50:47

to ... I'm going to put this and

50:49

get all of us into trouble, will never

50:51

be recoverable. Let's put it

50:54

that way. Trump has become a part

50:56

of their identity. It will not go away.

50:58

Even if they stop vocalizing it, it is what

51:00

it is. And that's what all theorists will tell

51:02

you. But then there's the other piece

51:05

of the rise of an authoritarian-like Trump that is so interesting

51:08

is that somebody like

51:10

that can turn people who have previously been

51:12

apathetic into political actors. And

51:15

the question is, what happens to them when they

51:17

recognize that he is no longer

51:19

a viable candidate? And by that, I mean

51:22

if you watch him, one of the things that seems

51:24

to me not on the table right now and ought to be is that

51:26

people really haven't seen him for

51:29

a long time.

51:30

I was just saying this on the podcast of America yesterday.

51:33

Yeah.

51:33

And when you see him now and

51:36

listen to him, one of the reasons I think he's not

51:38

doing the debates, yes, he's way out in front with

51:40

the primary voters, but he

51:43

is a deeply problem aside

51:45

from the indictments, aside from the

51:48

liability for rape, aside from the ...

51:50

I mean, should I just keep on going here? Aside

51:52

from the fact that his businesses

51:55

have been found guilty of fraud,

51:57

aside from all those things, he's incoherent.

51:59

You know, and at some point,

52:03

those apathetic voters are going to, previously

52:06

apathetic voters are going to have to make a choice. Am

52:08

I still willing to throw in my lot with

52:10

this man, or am I going

52:12

to do something else? And the question is, what

52:14

will they do in that moment? And my guess

52:17

is that some people are going to become

52:20

fervent anti-champers. They've been cheated

52:22

and they're pissed off, right? Probably

52:24

a fairly small percentage of them. A

52:27

lot of the apathetic people will just be apathetic

52:29

again. They're all corrupt, I hate this,

52:31

I wanted Trump, he was the best president ever,

52:33

but you've ruined him.

52:36

And then there's

52:37

a group of them, I think, that will become nihilists

52:39

and want to burn it all down. And

52:41

that feels to me like where we are right now.

52:44

Now, of course, I don't know, because I'm a prophet of the past

52:46

and not the future, but I am not,

52:49

I am very concerned about the future,

52:52

but I am not despairing of it.

53:00

This fall, use Steel Power to tackle

53:02

all your outdoor chores with dependable chainsaws,

53:05

blowers, trimmers, and more. Right

53:07

now, get a chainsaw carrying case, chain,

53:10

and hat. A $100 value for

53:12

free with purchase of select steel chainsaws.

53:14

Real steel. Find yours at steeldealers.com.

53:18

Valid October 1st, 2023 through

53:20

December 30th, 2023 at participating

53:22

retailers while supplies last.

53:25

Etsy has it, everyone. Yes, it's

53:27

true. Etsy is where style seekers,

53:29

vintage hunters, long-time renters, and

53:32

new homeowners alike go to shop for style,

53:34

home decor, and gifts from independent

53:36

sellers. Shop signature

53:38

jackets, jewelry, artwork, furniture,

53:40

rugs, and more. This is

53:42

your invitation to find what your style-seeking,

53:44

home-upgrading heart desires. Find

53:47

home, style, and gifts for you for all

53:49

budgets and any occasion. Shop

53:51

Etsy.com today. Etsy has

53:53

it.

53:56

Get Hulu Plus Live TV for $49.99 per

53:58

month for your free subscription. your first three months.

54:01

No long-term contract, no hidden fees,

54:03

and no clunky cable box. Over 90 live

54:06

channels, plus Hulu's entire streaming library,

54:08

with access to Disney Plus and ESPN

54:10

Plus, all in one plan. After the discount

54:13

period, regular monthly fees apply. Offer

54:15

ends October 11th. New and eligible returning

54:17

subscribers only. Additional terms and restrictions

54:20

apply. Access content from each service

54:22

separately. Learn more at hulu.com

54:24

slash live dash TV.

54:29

We've

54:32

talked a lot about Trump, but I'm trying to think about

54:34

like the antidote to Trump and leaders who have

54:37

tried to oppose Trump. Joe Biden

54:39

comes into office and he,

54:42

you know, sort of does everything that

54:44

you would want someone to do to sort of lower the

54:46

temperature in the country. And he's talking

54:48

about democracy and he's reaching out to all

54:50

Americans and many of

54:52

his policies have, he

54:55

has specifically targeted policies,

54:57

economic policies, to help people in red states.

54:59

They have talked about that, says that he's

55:01

everyone's president, and he's

55:05

sitting in an approval rating that's not great. And

55:07

then you have someone like, and I've heard you talk about

55:09

this too, Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan,

55:12

right? And very competitive

55:14

state, and has passed

55:16

policies that done the same as Biden

55:19

and has a very high approval

55:21

rating in that state. And I

55:23

wonder what's the difference between Michigan

55:25

and the rest of the United States? Because you see

55:27

the same thing with Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, right?

55:29

Another sort of moderate, middle

55:32

of the road Democrat, super, super

55:34

popular. And I wonder

55:36

if there's something that when you go

55:38

national, something is broken

55:40

in the country that Joe Biden can't get

55:42

sort of the credit that I think a lot of people would

55:45

give him for lowering the temperature and just

55:47

governing responsibly in this period. Well, in a sense,

55:49

states are easier

55:50

because you're not going to make your career in Florida

55:52

by attacking people in Michigan, you

55:54

know. So it's much easier,

55:56

I think, to go after the president because most people pay

55:59

more attention to the president. But one

56:01

of the things that I think is interesting about this moment

56:03

and I think about what Biden is doing that I don't

56:05

think people are paying enough attention to, and that is

56:07

that he and his administration have

56:09

worked extraordinarily hard to roll

56:11

back the policies of the past 40 years

56:14

that have concentrated wealth at the very top. Now,

56:16

there's big stuff they haven't been able to do and they won't

56:19

be able to do simply because of the split in the Congress.

56:22

But as we know, rolling back the George W.

56:24

Bush tax cuts and the Trump tax cuts would take

56:26

care of the deficit. There's

56:28

not news to anybody who follows

56:31

the numbers. That would be huge. But the

56:33

piece that is interesting to me in that,

56:35

and of course they're taking on anti-monopoly,

56:39

they're taking on all sorts of ways in which they're trying

56:41

to restore power to ordinary

56:44

Americans. And what's interesting to me about that

56:46

is historically if you look at this country, the times

56:48

in which we have pulled together, the times

56:50

in which our racial, our ethnic splits,

56:52

our gender splits, all of those things have gotten

56:55

much smaller, are times when the

56:57

economy is

56:58

much fairer. So

57:01

while people

57:03

recognize the importance of his economic

57:06

legislation and his economic moves,

57:08

I think, they seem somehow to see

57:10

that as separate from what people like

57:12

Vice President Kamala Harris has been focusing on, which

57:14

is the idea of equality before the law. And

57:17

it strikes me that they're both flip sides

57:19

of the same coin. That if you can stop

57:22

all the money going to the very top and make

57:24

sure people don't have to worry about where their next meal

57:26

is coming from or where their next car payment is coming

57:29

from, they're much more likely to say, sure,

57:31

I don't mind sharing my

57:34

job site with somebody from another

57:36

country. I know. It's

57:38

so interesting because I

57:40

worked for President Obama and I remember in the 2012

57:42

re-elect that

57:44

Romney was our opponent and Obama

57:47

would always say that this is a debate

57:49

about the size and

57:51

role of government. And I think that Romney

57:53

probably would have said that as well. And they were arguing

57:56

over taxes and tax cuts

57:58

and health care and all those. And now

58:01

it feels like the axis of American

58:03

politics is around these issues of

58:06

identity, partly because of

58:08

Trump. Trump did this, right? And

58:11

as he has radicalized the

58:14

Republican Party, it seems

58:16

more difficult to even get coverage

58:19

when you are debating issues about economic

58:22

growth and inequality. And

58:24

look, it's Biden's message. He's out

58:26

there all the time talking about the economy and

58:29

Bidenomics and all the things he's done. And

58:31

look, I think part of it is, you know, we're still dealing

58:34

with inflation, even though it's come down. And so that people

58:36

are feeling that. But I wonder

58:39

how to beat back the MAGA

58:42

Trump strategy of

58:45

making everything about these

58:47

cultural, social issues of identity.

58:49

Well, it is worth remembering that the reason that they're

58:51

focusing on those cultural and

58:54

social issues and on identity is because

58:56

the vast majority of Americans are agreed

58:58

on the role of the government in our society.

59:01

So, you know, the percentages are truly

59:04

crazy when you look at how many people want

59:06

gun safety, how many people want reproductive rights,

59:08

how many people want fair taxes, how many people

59:10

want health care. I mean, these are not

59:13

marginal issues. These are where in the 70%, in some

59:15

cases in the 80% of people who want

59:18

them. So of course that's not a fight that the Republicans

59:20

want to have. Instead, they would much rather

59:23

have a fight over whether or not literally

59:25

it came down to one trans

59:27

kid in Kansas, which I thought was

59:30

interesting legislatively for different reasons. They'd

59:32

much rather have that fight than have people

59:35

say, well, no, actually we don't think

59:36

you should have social security.

59:37

So one of the things that I always try

59:39

to do is center that economic argument

59:42

and say, listen, we are really talking about this

59:44

here. But second, you

59:46

know, how do you take that back, first of all,

59:48

by doing what you and I are doing? But

59:50

second of all, by recognizing I think that there is a huge

59:53

problem right now on the Republican side, and that

59:55

is that central to their cultural fight

59:57

has been the fight over reproductive rights. Once

1:00:00

again, we're in the 70s of people

1:00:02

who believe, 70% of people who believe

1:00:05

that abortion should be safe and legal in

1:00:07

some or all cases. That's

1:00:09

a huge percentage, and the number of people who think it

1:00:11

should never be is under I

1:00:14

don't remember if it's six or nine because I always mix those two up,

1:00:16

but it's quite low, right? So, they don't

1:00:18

want to talk about that. Instead, as I say, we're

1:00:21

really focusing on things like that

1:00:23

stupid penguin and the fact

1:00:27

that it had two parents, and I don't even know if it was

1:00:29

two male penguins. I mean, really?

1:00:31

Like, really? This is the world's superpower,

1:00:34

and we're worried about a couple of penguins in a children's

1:00:36

book, and they would much rather have

1:00:38

those fights than the real ones that matter to

1:00:40

people's lives. One of the things

1:00:43

that we started with here was narrative,

1:00:45

and one of the things that worries me is when people try

1:00:48

and take on those narratives, they

1:00:50

fade on their terms. You know, in

1:00:52

fact, instead of saying, I don't want to talk

1:00:54

to you about the latest thing that Trump has

1:00:56

done, I want to tell you what America should be.

1:01:00

That's the narrative structure that will

1:01:02

enable people to envision our way out

1:01:04

of the box that we've lived in for the past six

1:01:07

years and the past 40 before that.

1:01:09

You wrote that you're

1:01:11

much more hopeful now than you were six or seven

1:01:13

years ago when there was a clear trend

1:01:15

toward authoritarianism and no one is paying attention. Now

1:01:17

people have woken up. What makes you so

1:01:20

hopeful that people have woken up and

1:01:22

will continue to stay away?

1:01:23

I will answer that, but I want to ask you first,

1:01:25

did you see

1:01:27

this moment coming or

1:01:29

not? I did not. I

1:01:31

knew that the Republican Party was

1:01:34

radicalizing in sort of a dangerous way, but

1:01:37

again, I remember, it's

1:01:40

now a famous quote, but I remember being

1:01:42

with Obama when he said, you know, I think, and

1:01:44

if we win this in 2012, the

1:01:46

fever has to break. They

1:01:49

will only be, not because they'll like suddenly

1:01:52

see the light, but Republicans will realize

1:01:54

that it's not sustainable for them to

1:01:56

continue running elections like this, especially

1:01:59

in a diversifying.

1:01:59

country, where there's going to be a majority

1:02:02

for progressive values or more progressive

1:02:05

values at least than Republicans. And I think,

1:02:07

to be fair, the Republican

1:02:09

Party itself, after they lost that election, they had

1:02:12

the whole, the RNC did an autopsy

1:02:15

where the conclusion was we have to be more

1:02:17

pro-immigration and we have to

1:02:19

be more welcoming. So I did

1:02:22

not see it. I

1:02:24

did not see it. I thought that, I did

1:02:26

think during the primary in 2016 that

1:02:28

it was going to be, I thought earlier

1:02:32

in the primary before he

1:02:34

was leading in the polls that it was going to be Trump just because that's

1:02:36

how the Republican Party was headed. But

1:02:40

I did not think that he would win.

1:02:42

It is worth remembering that Trump

1:02:44

in 2016 was the most moderate Republican

1:02:47

economically on that stage. He

1:02:50

called for fixing tax loopholes

1:02:52

that were enabling the rich to take everything and wanted to

1:02:54

bring back manufacturing and wanted cheaper and better

1:02:57

healthcare. He really was

1:02:59

saying all the right stuff. We just

1:03:01

didn't realize that

1:03:02

it was all a miracle. Well, that's what worries

1:03:05

me about him now is because

1:03:07

you were just mentioning the, it's more

1:03:09

of like the Ron DeSantis wing of the party really focusing

1:03:12

on trans issues and

1:03:15

what kids are being taught in school and CRT.

1:03:18

And you can tell that Trump hits those notes

1:03:20

when he has to, but I think he was at a rally

1:03:23

a couple of months ago and he was like, you

1:03:25

know, I talk about tax cuts, no one applauds. I

1:03:27

talk about this trans stuff and everyone's clapping their hands.

1:03:29

People didn't even know what it was. It's like, he's almost confused

1:03:31

by it because I think he has

1:03:34

now, he's back on the message

1:03:36

I think that was effective

1:03:38

for him in 2016, which is more

1:03:41

economic populism, more immigration.

1:03:44

We got to stop immigration and we got to do another trade

1:03:46

war. And I do think that's a more,

1:03:49

he sort of intuitively gets

1:03:52

where both the Republican bases

1:03:54

and maybe some of the swing voters more

1:03:56

than I think anyone else in the Republican party right

1:03:58

now.

1:03:59

leaders of the Republican Party are really pushing it

1:04:02

toward that illiberal democracy that you're identifying

1:04:04

that comes really from places like

1:04:06

Hungary and the idea of a much

1:04:09

larger government that is going to turn us all

1:04:11

into a Christian nation as opposed

1:04:14

to the old kind of Republican

1:04:16

argument that we want of a smaller government and economic

1:04:19

freedom.

1:04:20

Yeah. So I guess that goes back to what

1:04:23

keeps you hopeful.

1:04:25

Well, so there are a number

1:04:27

of things that keep me hopeful. The

1:04:29

most obvious one is that we

1:04:31

have been here before and there

1:04:33

are plenty of dates I could give you where

1:04:36

people thought our democracy was done. Most

1:04:39

effectively, of course, in 1853,

1:04:41

it was pretty clear if you were looking around

1:04:43

that the country was about to become

1:04:46

entirely dominated by elite enslavers. They

1:04:48

had taken over the White House and the Supreme Court.

1:04:51

They had taken over the Senate. They had made inroads

1:04:53

in the House of Representatives and it was only a question

1:04:55

of time until they spread human enslavement to the

1:04:57

American South and from there it will become a national

1:04:59

institution. They were quite articulate about

1:05:02

this. They intended to have their

1:05:04

system of human enslavement spread around the globe

1:05:06

and this was going to be the future of human government.

1:05:09

That was 1853. 1854, they

1:05:11

forced through Congress a law that does in

1:05:13

fact enable them to spread enslavement across the

1:05:15

West. By 1856, there's a new

1:05:18

political party made up of people who disagree

1:05:20

with each other about everything from immigration

1:05:22

and finances and internal improvements

1:05:24

to you name it, that they could agree that

1:05:26

they were not going to let the country be taken over

1:05:29

by an oligarchy. That was 1856. By 1859,

1:05:32

you've got Abraham Lincoln articulating a new

1:05:34

vision of American society that says the government

1:05:36

should not work for those rich guys. It should work for

1:05:38

ordinary people like us. By 1863,

1:05:42

January of 1863, he has seen the Emancipation

1:05:45

Proclamation ending human enslavement in

1:05:47

the United States and by 1863,

1:05:50

he's giving the Gettysburg Address saying that this government

1:05:53

is going to be based on the Declaration

1:05:55

of Independence and the right of everybody to be treated

1:05:57

equally before the law and to have a say in their government.

1:06:00

That's extraordinary. That's nine years.

1:06:03

You go from we've lost it all to we're reinventing

1:06:05

it. But I could do the same thing for the 1890s

1:06:08

and I could absolutely do the same thing for

1:06:10

the 1920s to the 1930s. So

1:06:13

that's the real question.

1:06:13

A lot of pain and suffering in all of those

1:06:15

periods. Well, that's why I

1:06:16

keep talking. It would be really nice to just

1:06:19

kind of skip

1:06:19

over that part, right? Because

1:06:21

we know how it's going to come out. Strong

1:06:23

men never survive. It's just a question of how much

1:06:26

damage they do until they end up

1:06:29

being gotten rid of. So I have faith

1:06:32

in the history. I also have

1:06:34

faith in American society because

1:06:36

I think our marginalized peoples have kept those

1:06:39

ideals of the Declaration of Independence in front

1:06:41

of us since the beginning in a way that in other countries

1:06:43

they may not have. But finally,

1:06:45

I think I am sanguine because

1:06:48

I believe that humans

1:06:50

want the principle of self-determination. That

1:06:53

at the end of the day that this is really a human

1:06:55

experiment and whether or not we should have control

1:06:57

over our own lives. And if

1:07:00

that's the case and that democracy

1:07:02

is a form of government most designed to

1:07:04

guarantee that the majority of people

1:07:07

can have the right of self-determination, I

1:07:09

have a really hard time believing that Americans

1:07:11

are going to give it up.

1:07:12

Yeah. I mean, you

1:07:14

were describing authoritarianism in

1:07:17

your book as the

1:07:19

belief that some people are better than others. It's

1:07:21

pretty simple, isn't it? Well, it also

1:07:23

reminded me of, and I think Biden

1:07:26

has said this a lot, he said it during the inaugural

1:07:28

as well because it really stuck with me. And

1:07:30

it's one of his parent's sayings, which he often

1:07:33

gives people a lot. And it was what

1:07:35

his mom used to say to him, which was, Joey, no one is better

1:07:37

than you. Everyone is your equal and everyone

1:07:39

is equal to you. And it struck me that

1:07:41

that is a pretty good foundation for

1:07:44

a defense of democracy and specifically

1:07:47

American democracy. And I wonder

1:07:49

how

1:07:50

you think about the story

1:07:52

that we tell now going forward and what the most

1:07:54

effective story to counter authoritarianism

1:07:56

is. And is it more like value

1:07:59

laden like that?

1:07:59

Is it, you know, I remember when Trump won, there

1:08:02

was some folks from Italy who

1:08:04

were saying, you know what, the way that we beat Berlusconi

1:08:07

was just treating them like a regular politician and just

1:08:09

talking about issues. And I think Biden

1:08:11

has sort of elevated the conversation

1:08:14

about Trump to talk a lot about democracy

1:08:16

and values and principles and ideals. And

1:08:19

you know, and there's some concern, is that too

1:08:21

far removed from people's everyday lives? And

1:08:23

so I do wonder what your thoughts are on like sort

1:08:25

of the core story about democracy that

1:08:27

could prevail at this moment.

1:08:29

Well, I think what Biden has done

1:08:31

is very important. But

1:08:34

I think the story right now is not

1:08:36

really about Biden or Trump,

1:08:38

although Biden is articulating it. It

1:08:41

is about American people reclaiming their

1:08:43

control of their democracy. So

1:08:45

one of the things that's really taken off since the 1980s,

1:08:48

and you see it in the curriculum in Florida and Texas

1:08:51

and Oklahoma, for example, is not just

1:08:54

the erasure of minority history.

1:08:56

It's the erasure of agency. The idea

1:08:58

that ordinary people make a difference.

1:09:01

And that's why I am pointing

1:09:03

to things like people showing up at a Taylor Swift

1:09:05

concert. The idea that people going

1:09:07

about their daily lives can make good

1:09:10

choices on a daily

1:09:11

basis, can stand up on a daily

1:09:13

basis for caring

1:09:14

for community, for caring for each other, for

1:09:16

making sure people are treated equally before the law,

1:09:19

for doing the things that make a democracy

1:09:22

work, I think has really gotten traction

1:09:24

in the last few years. And I find that

1:09:26

very exciting. I mean, that doesn't mean at the end of the day, we're

1:09:29

going to end up at the place that looks exactly

1:09:31

like what I envision it. But that's the whole

1:09:33

point of democracy. We get to have a say

1:09:35

in the way it comes out. And I'm seeing that all

1:09:38

around. So yes, talking

1:09:41

about democracy is very

1:09:42

important. But more important, I think, is

1:09:44

seeing how it plays out on the ground and

1:09:46

ceasing to focus only on Trump as

1:09:49

if he's somehow some shaman who's going

1:09:51

to either make us or break us. Because

1:09:53

at the end of the day, he's not. It's never been about

1:09:55

him. It's been about those people who hope that

1:09:57

he can make something magical happen to return.

1:10:00

turn their lives to importance, when

1:10:02

in fact the vast majority of us are

1:10:05

pretty convinced our lives already are important and

1:10:07

our government should represent us.

1:10:09

Yeah, and reminding people that

1:10:11

they, like you said, they have agency and they have power

1:10:13

to do something about this, which I think is the antidote

1:10:15

to a cynicism that

1:10:18

pervades politics right now that

1:10:20

I think helps people like

1:10:22

Trump and the Republican Party.

1:10:24

Absolutely. And you know, if you don't think

1:10:26

you have power, take a look at how the Republicans are

1:10:28

no longer talking about getting rid of abortion. Ever

1:10:31

since the Dobbs decision and when Democrats have been

1:10:33

overperforming in every special election

1:10:35

since then by eight points, all of a sudden

1:10:38

now they're coming up with all kinds of other language

1:10:40

to talk about restricting abortion rights

1:10:42

because people are upset by it. And similarly,

1:10:45

within the week before you and I were talking,

1:10:48

we have Clarence Thomas recusing himself

1:10:50

from a Supreme Court case involving

1:10:53

the January 6th attack

1:10:55

on the U.S. Capitol, which he's always refused

1:10:57

to do in the past. Well, you know, he's feeling the pressure

1:10:59

because people are speaking up and saying, hey, wait a minute

1:11:02

here. What about ethics on the Supreme Court? So

1:11:04

American voices really matter in terms

1:11:06

of making people do what you want them to do, but also

1:11:09

I think in upholding democratic values

1:11:11

and it's high time.

1:11:12

Yeah. Heather Cox Richardson, thank

1:11:14

you so much for joining offline. This is a fantastic

1:11:16

conversation. The book is Democracy Awakenings

1:11:19

and everyone should go get it. It is a fantastic book.

1:11:21

Thank you so much.

1:11:32

Offline is a crooked media production. It's

1:11:34

written and hosted by me, John Favreau. It's

1:11:37

produced by Austin Ficher. Emma Ilik

1:11:39

Frank is our associate producer. Andrew Chadwick

1:11:41

is our sound editor. Kyle Seglund, Charlotte

1:11:44

Landis and Vassilis Fotopoulos sound engineered

1:11:46

the show. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel

1:11:48

take care of our music. Thanks to Michael Martinez,

1:11:51

Ari Schwartz, Amelia Montuth and Sandy Gerard

1:11:53

for production support. To our digital team,

1:11:55

Elijah Cohn and Rachel Gieske, who film

1:11:58

and share our episodes as videos and videos.

1:11:59

every week.

1:12:09

Daily headlines remind us of how the conservative

1:12:11

majority on the Supreme Court is moving fast and

1:12:13

breaking precedence. But elsewhere in

1:12:15

the lower courts, where the media spotlight doesn't

1:12:17

shine as bright, unseen forces are

1:12:19

fomenting a quiet revolution. We

1:12:22

Don't Talk About Leonard, a new series from ProPublica

1:12:24

and On the Media, explores the web of money,

1:12:27

influence, and power behind the conservative takeover

1:12:29

of America's courts and considers the man

1:12:31

at the center of it all. Listen to On the

1:12:33

Media from WNYC.

1:12:35

This fall, use steel power to tackle

1:12:37

all your outdoor chores with dependable chainsaws,

1:12:40

blowers, trimmers, and more. Right

1:12:42

now, get a chainsaw carrying case, chain,

1:12:45

and hat, a $100 value for free with purchase of

1:12:48

select steel chainsaws. Real steel.

1:12:51

Find yours at steeldealers.com, valid

1:12:53

October 1st, 2023 through December 30th, 2023 at participating retailers

1:12:58

while supplies last.

1:13:00

Welcome to Breeze Line, where next level

1:13:02

internet speeds mean next level productivity.

1:13:05

Whether it's back to school, back to work, or

1:13:07

back to reality, don't let slow internet

1:13:10

slow down your game. Kick it up a notch

1:13:12

with a game-changing offer of 1 gig fiber

1:13:14

fast speeds for only $59.99 per

1:13:17

month. Get Breeze Line and get next level

1:13:19

internet and faster speeds backed by a fiber-powered

1:13:21

network. Terms and conditions apply. Go

1:13:24

to BreezeLine.com to learn more.