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as

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barbara welcome top

1:18

hey everyone welcome to the best of often first

1:21

quick update offline is taking a break

1:23

for the next few weeks team and i have

1:25

some long planned time away as we unplugged

1:28

recharge and i'm sorry for

1:30

doing this go offline don't

1:32

worry we'll be back new episodes of offline

1:34

will hit your feet in early october

1:37

but before we go i wanted to look back and see

1:39

what lessons we've learned from plumbing the depths

1:41

of the internet so today instead

1:43

of our usual interview we picked out are all

1:45

time favorite moments from offline so far

1:49

when i heard the show i had a good sense that the

1:51

internet was breaking us our brains

1:53

our culture especially or politics but

1:55

it was only a sense i didn't fully realize

1:58

the extent of the damage and i definitely

2:00

didn't understand the forces driving it now

2:03

, months and forty conversation later

2:05

i have a much better handle on it it

2:07

will say that i'm pretty worried much more

2:09

so than when we started and i'm not sure

2:12

we can regulate ourselves out of this mess either but

2:14

either am hopeful that individually we can

2:16

eat change our relationship with the internet and ways

2:19

the will help us live healthier and happier lives

2:22

i haven't unplugged or quit twitter but

2:24

i'm definitely doom scrolling less i'm not

2:26

getting into twitter fights put in the phone down

2:28

more trying to spend more time being

2:30

present with people especially when i'm hanging out

2:32

with charlie and i hope these conversations

2:35

have helped you to the today we're going

2:37

to look back at some of the highlands the conversation

2:39

that of help us make sense of at all and helped

2:41

us reassess are screen time with people

2:43

like stephen colbert roxane gay jenny

2:45

odell think green and so many

2:47

more here's your offline

2:50

rewind

2:57

so the first moment

2:59

i want to share his from my conversation with stephen

3:01

colbert in november of last year a

3:03

bad time bad time just beginning to understand what the

3:05

show could be a thinking about my own relationship

3:08

with my phone especially twitter and

3:10

wanted to hear about our guess relationships with their

3:12

phones especially in the wake of

3:14

the coven eighteen pandemic

3:16

one of the reasons i did this show is because i

3:18

felt like the pandemic forced

3:21

are like already extremely online

3:23

culture to spend even more time

3:25

online and i'm not sure

3:27

that's been a good thing what would you think

3:29

have you experienced that about

3:31

i don't think anybody could honestly

3:33

say

3:35

if you own a smartphone

3:37

you can't say that you're not on the internet too much

3:40

i want my booster on right

3:42

and i sat down

3:45

and as i sat down i reached into this

3:47

coat pocket here and pulled out my phone or flipped

3:49

it open the look at it

3:51

now i'm out

3:53

what i what did i wonder i really

3:55

needed it i have fifteen minutes here because

3:57

you have to wait fifteen as for you leave frank the

4:00

here i going to spend fifteen minutes

4:02

the people want

4:04

so i i did and i people

4:06

watched every single

4:08

person was on their phone regular

4:11

phone and so i went there fuck it

4:13

i'll do the same thing and suppose because

4:15

there was that interesting to watch because they're just doing

4:18

this they were just feels doing this growth

4:20

i'm growth i'm the little thing i don't know

4:22

maybe everybody has this but i have the album

4:25

how long how much yes how

4:27

much you've done in your phone comes on sunday times

4:29

on sunday app i have installed or whether

4:32

or something some toggle i flipped

4:34

over in my iphone i'm not sure where that information

4:36

comes from but i

4:38

do find it distressing that

4:41

it's it's like eight hours a day

4:43

you're ada oh wow oh i got

4:45

i wish i was like over

4:48

i was a kitten five and i was worried about

4:50

myself were constantly searching

4:53

for what is the conversation today

4:55

and i know i'm for you very much the same thing

4:58

but because we have to do a new one of these

5:00

every day i am constantly

5:02

trying to appeal the onion say

5:05

what what's really behind

5:07

that was behind that was behind that what's behind that

5:09

discuss context for the conversation

5:11

so even as someone's pitching me

5:14

their jokes on the story i'm

5:16

listening with one ear and others a year i'm

5:19

reading about the story to see whether

5:21

there's any sort of juxtaposition information here

5:23

that could be comedic or is it does it relate

5:25

to some other than we're talking about today and

5:27

so the for what i do

5:30

which is really is that

5:33

a so much media criticism is that i'm a curator

5:35

of the daily media experience yeah

5:37

like we watched it to

5:40

where i read it to where i saw

5:42

that meme to where i had that reaction

5:44

to this event as well and here's

5:46

how we processed it as you had your emotional

5:48

process you the audience this is our emotional

5:51

process but to have saw

5:53

a wide net cast all the time

5:56

it is i i i that we have

5:58

to lower ourselves

5:59

into the radioactive pool that

6:02

is the internet just

6:05

a know yeah i know that we can be pulled

6:07

out like of carbon rod at the end of the day and

6:09

they put the carbon rod front of a t v and

6:12

i irradiated back of the audience

6:14

at a much lower rad level that's not lethal

6:17

the only mean by we have your poison part

6:19

of the job is that i'm dragon the the radioactive

6:22

the hundred shots of the radioactive pool

6:25

in order to radiated back to you so

6:27

that's part of the job that i don't particularly

6:29

dig the idea is it

6:31

all twitter that your do as you scroll through twitter

6:34

or you know i rare i don't

6:36

ever do that anymore oh that's good ah i

6:38

don't even have twitter anymore oh wow

6:41

okay i'll sleep i still tweet that

6:43

i literally give a tweet to somebody else

6:45

to we and that's one

6:47

of the still only the only way of unable

6:49

to reduce my intake at all is i'd

6:52

i'd never read twitter i'm

6:54

going to say that that makes you say to only among

6:56

read the people i follow so you're lying

6:58

to yourself yeah no you're going to look at you're gonna start looking at your

7:00

mentions you're going to look at the comments are going to look

7:03

at i don't say about the show you don't want that

7:05

i don't know i don't know i haven't looked at my mentions

7:07

forever this is that this is already

7:09

a much healthier social media diet

7:12

or or find them diet health

7:14

that i don't haven't done that since i

7:16

have not search for my own articles since

7:19

the for spawn a sinner two thousand six because

7:22

he frigid by with enough of a visit

7:24

wrapped that , as

7:26

out enough to thank you for anybody anybody

7:29

yeah i think it's a ultimately the

7:32

here's the thing doesn't break our brain my

7:34

brain came pre broken you

7:36

know i always have six thoughts going

7:38

at once in my mind that sort of balkanized

7:41

way the we all think now at the same time

7:43

it's as if the like how you can partition a hard

7:45

drive it all my

7:47

brain is always partition and running three or

7:49

four programs at once met

7:52

the internet merely is as

7:54

my daughter once said to me yeah and

7:57

there's never been anybody more ready

7:59

to receive the that the new can you

8:01

are the internet like that's how your brain works

8:03

in in good ways and bad ways

8:06

and so i don't feel i

8:08

feel basically the culture of the

8:10

internet is poisonous the mechanism

8:13

of the internet i think is wonderful

8:16

stevens brain seems to be

8:18

tailor made for the internet but that isn't the case

8:20

for most of us a few months later i

8:22

sat down with new york times bestselling author

8:24

roxane gay about her relationship with

8:26

the internet and why at the time

8:29

she had decided to step away from social media what

8:32

was your experience like on twitter

8:34

when you finally decided to step

8:37

back and spend a little less time on social media i

8:40

just hit a wall i just didn't like

8:42

the person i was becoming more

8:45

than was more than just

8:47

the constant harassment

8:49

and cruelty

8:52

i was finding myself

8:54

becoming

8:56

heavier and heavier and just

9:01

you know just like that need to have the last

9:03

word and i love being right

9:06

there sister will , more

9:08

than being rights and and i hate

9:10

when people misinterpret

9:13

me or misstate my positions

9:15

and so i was in this constant motive

9:17

like correct sin and correct have

9:19

never been one to look up myself

9:22

i don't search my name on twitter name on have

9:24

because i don't

9:26

want to know honestly what you

9:28

are talking about what that that lena like if you're

9:30

talking shit about me that's really none of my business

9:33

i , ever see it when people

9:35

tag me into it and when that

9:37

happens i can't help but

9:41

but figure out why like

9:43

what's being said and

9:45

said would just go down these

9:47

hock sick rabbit holes of

9:49

the people whom

9:52

clearly just don't like me and we're looking

9:54

for excuses

9:56

that would make it supposedly like

9:58

safe for them to air

9:59

dislike and ,

10:02

i just realized this isn't

10:04

who isn't am this is not

10:07

how i wanna be in the world the

10:09

have nothing to do with my actual work and

10:12

so i'm trying and

10:14

if the process i'm just trying the unclamps

10:17

and just see though so what if

10:19

someone's out there misrepresenting

10:22

something i've said or what i believe

10:24

you know my work speaks for itself

10:27

and , just trusting in my work

10:29

now and also trying

10:31

to develop i mean

10:33

i've always had hobbies and interests outside

10:36

of the internet think god and

10:38

so i'm just spending more time during

10:40

the kinds of things that i actually want to be doing

10:43

yeah i i made the mistake

10:46

of thinking that like

10:49

arguments on twitter they

10:52

were things that you could win system

10:54

or that like people could be reasoned

10:56

with or that i guess some of these arguments for

10:58

on the level when someone was like criticizing

11:00

you're coming after coming and i would go into this mention

11:03

that into would reply to people not people try

11:05

to be an asshole back to them but to try

11:07

to say like oh maybe i'll convince someone

11:09

why i was right or maybe i'll have an

11:11

interesting debate or conversation and pretty

11:13

soon you realize like best is not possible

11:16

like that's not what the platform is foreign that's not

11:18

really with that's platform facilities it's it

11:20

isn't and

11:22

i also find that people

11:25

tend to want to debate what

11:28

i've written and for me

11:30

the beginning and end of my engagement with

11:32

the subject as the essay that i published i

11:35

don't have like more interest

11:38

than that unless i'm of course

11:41

at an event or talking with

11:43

friends and colleagues and

11:45

people tend to get really

11:47

disappointed that like whatever

11:50

i'm writing about isn't my lifelong

11:52

passion and it's like i have many

11:55

interests and as a cultural

11:57

critic i'm going to write about many things but

12:00

i don't owe you engagement beyond the

12:02

work and i'm just reminding

12:05

myself of that more and

12:07

more that

12:08

the work is engagement enough

12:11

yeah it is why and even if

12:14

if someone wanted to engage with an opinion

12:16

i have are on the pot or anything

12:18

like that and it's an individual and

12:20

i were one on one i'd be happy to have

12:22

that conversation but that's not what engagement

12:24

is on social media when you engage

12:26

with one person you are then once

12:29

again going fully public with that

12:31

system since and it's an audience

12:33

of people that are going to hear that said probably

12:35

don't necessarily need to hear that and

12:39

you know the reality is that

12:41

i just find that is not a lot of good faith engagement

12:44

whenever people wanna supposedly

12:46

engage with me what they really wanna do

12:49

is share their pet perspective and

12:52

tell me that i'm wrong that's

12:54

actually not engagement so feel free to tell me

12:56

that i'm wrong but you're not really looking

12:59

for a conversation you're looking for

13:01

affirmation of your point of view

13:03

an acknowledgement and i

13:05

don't think actually i know

13:07

it's not my job to do that for you you have to

13:10

figure that out on your own and

13:12

, i'd i'd

13:15

the internet is a mess a up

13:17

us you know and up us think

13:19

of that a lot of it is because

13:22

the people who created internet platforms sort

13:25

of decided that they were not

13:27

going to tend to the gardens that they belt anything

13:30

him go

13:31

let's go and build weeds

13:33

rock civility course

13:36

white supremacy on these platforms is fine

13:39

misinformation cool and

13:41

we're seeing the result of that we're seeing what

13:43

seeing what of taste and curiosity becomes

13:47

and and that's not

13:49

even referring

13:51

to some of these petty are like more aggravating

13:53

day to day interactions but the

13:55

kind of energy that enables

13:58

people to think yes i'm

14:00

going to see this absolutely ridiculous

14:03

thing to this person i disagree with because

14:06

why not because i can

14:08

and i think that most people

14:11

don't have that kind of al it anymore

14:13

roxanne was not the last guests who talked about

14:16

bad faith engagement online lot

14:18

of people i talked to had reflections about the ways

14:20

that decisions around engagements

14:22

and brought together the wrong people changed

14:24

how we talk or how we create to

14:27

my favorite moments on this thread came from youtube

14:29

or hank green and msnbc host

14:31

chris hayes you're angry the

14:34

you look back at it to doesn't seven

14:36

as like the good old days of the internet

14:38

and wonder what chains like what do you think go ask

14:41

how do you think it's evolved over the years i

14:44

think that the people

14:47

or is it's just are

14:49

, but

14:52

always been good idea

14:57

where did you get that i

15:00

have talked to his facebook

15:04

and he's like, look

15:06

i think facebook is done a lot of of bad shit i i

15:09

take responsibility for a lot of of that but i

15:12

think a lot of weed like about the

15:14

internet now is merely a reflection

15:16

of human nature and

15:18

us and not necessarily the

15:20

internet itself and i don't know

15:22

about that is the author all a less let

15:24

me hear what you think about that's so about that specifically

15:28

i

15:30

the sky this is like a weird name drop

15:32

but i was talking at it was it was an interview

15:35

i was interviewing bill gates and he and

15:37

he said basically the same thing and any

15:40

and it was like this aren't these platforms are trying

15:42

to get people to do anything and

15:44

without trying to get people to believe one thing

15:46

or another they're another trying to get people to be like

15:48

angry and i'm like

15:50

yeah they are trying to get people

15:52

to do something the other trying to get

15:55

people to do whatever makes them the most money

15:57

and he was like oh yeah aside from the profit motive

15:59

and i'll write off so

16:02

like in our society it is it is perfectly

16:04

ok for a social media platform

16:07

to do whatever they can to

16:09

make the most money because like that's what they're

16:11

supposed to do it would not be okay

16:13

for them to say what

16:15

, we do to make people happy

16:17

or sad or vote one way or another

16:20

that we would not be okay with like that's very

16:22

very creepy to think that like that the social

16:24

media platform is designed to

16:26

mollify me or to enrage

16:29

me or to get me to vote

16:31

for joe biden but it is

16:33

perfectly fine for them to to do whatever

16:35

it takes to get me to be the best consumers

16:38

to get me to be on the platform for the longest

16:40

amount of time possible and

16:42

i think that life we have to accept

16:44

that part of the side effect

16:47

of that may very well be

16:49

that that it does result in

16:51

me being enraged the

16:54

side effect of the profit motive the side effect

16:56

of trying to keep people on the website might

16:58

be that like the best way to do that is to have

17:01

people be

17:02

the happy the and

17:04

lonely and angry

17:07

and in , long term

17:09

that might actually be bad for the company but

17:12

a that a if they were trying to get people to

17:14

stay on the website for longer that that did seem

17:16

to be the thing that was doing it and like

17:18

maybe facebook is bang some price for that now

17:21

and also like maybe we all pay

17:23

some price for that in the long term because it's on awful

17:25

awful hard to run a company in a society that

17:27

falling apart and i am legitimately

17:29

what about

17:30

i mean one thing i've wondered about his

17:33

and you have profitable

17:37

the media company or platform that

17:40

engages people by

17:44

you know connecting them with content like

17:46

you do that makes them feel

17:48

informed

17:50

inspired maybe

17:52

they laugh rate like there's other ways to engage

17:54

people right like is this about tweaking

17:57

the algorithm yet or is the just like once

17:59

you have the platforms that are seeking profit

18:02

all hope is lost right i mean so

18:04

i have to have some some hope and

18:06

so i think a fair amount about how to

18:08

have hope in the face of ah success i

18:10

, it's even deeper than that that

18:12

think that it may not be about

18:15

the company's i'm happy about the plan from that may be

18:17

about like human communication

18:19

which is the thing that we are best added that in the

18:21

mix a mix it's what

18:23

made any of this possible like that

18:26

the house that i'm living in that the headphones

18:28

i'm wearing the drugs i'm take like all i

18:31

have a chronic illness not nice a record of

18:33

also the recreational drugs all of this

18:35

is all of that of this stuff

18:37

that it's the thing that makes all the stuff possible of

18:40

it and like so revolutions

18:42

to communications technologies the

18:45

communications technology revolutions are

18:47

always really just they

18:49

good they're the biggest one we have

18:51

ever had was the printing press and

18:54

martin luther was able to take down the catholic

18:57

church by himself take on

18:59

i shouldn't say take down obvious that they're still around for

19:01

armageddon and the parallels

19:03

are like really remarkable if you start to look at them like

19:06

that one of my favorite bits of this is that

19:08

a the catholic church kept trying to respond to martin

19:10

luther but they would only do it in latin because

19:12

that was the language of the church like you couldn't do

19:14

it in the the native that with language that people

19:16

actually spoke you'd think and feel like

19:18

martin luther would like like he was translating

19:21

these documents and all the different languages and the church

19:23

would respond only and latin which no

19:25

one spoke and and that feels a little

19:27

bit of a similar to some todd

19:29

casters being like i'm just wanted think

19:31

and talk and be loud and like ask

19:34

questions and be curious and talk to different people

19:36

and their government being like we have to speak

19:38

and a way that no one can misunderstand

19:41

and that will make no one angry and so we

19:43

tend to say nothing and were paralyzed and we

19:45

get everything wrong yeah and the people

19:48

get mad at us for getting everything wrong in their likes you

19:50

to be more of a authoritative it's

19:52

a the try that and is like was that turns out

19:54

you were wrong look a little bit wrong about one thing sunni

19:56

be more vague and so they

19:58

try that and as i can be be and fifty when

20:00

if you go back and forth and you had a situation where

20:02

there's this like asymmetry of like what

20:05

one group is allowed to do and

20:07

what the other group is allowed to do and

20:09

ah that like the the are

20:11

the result is that like the

20:14

really like strong powerful

20:16

things that have existed for a long long time

20:18

are , that power and that you know

20:20

you see it in the sort of the are like the disregarding

20:23

of of expertise and the

20:25

denigrating of like elites and

20:28

i feel it feels very reminiscent of

20:30

a kind of reformation vibe which

20:33

did not

20:34

turn out well short term

20:37

and here's an excerpt from my conversation with chris hayes

20:39

we've talked a lot on the show but all the ways the internet

20:41

is breaking our brains using

20:44

repayment it's it's like breaking our souls

20:47

which , even more depressing a specific yeah

20:50

i know my i know is much less on

20:52

the as on it i will

20:54

say nothing about our cognitive i mean i said the

20:56

beginning a little but the information processing but i think

20:58

it's doing much something much more profound about who

21:01

we are example

21:02

and how we interact and how we think about

21:05

their fellow humans

21:07

and

21:08

the i figured i think it is doing something pretty profound

21:10

they're not again

21:12

you can do the opposite i mean i i i

21:14

had to say i have become partly i just

21:16

i tell myself that this is for work which it

21:18

is i'm writing this book about ascension i've

21:21

become a big tic toc enjoy your

21:24

now , love to talk to me is like

21:26

it is it i'm sure there's lots of corners

21:28

or they're terrible the the corner of tic tac i

21:31

have is pretty delightful at it's a lot

21:33

of people making sandwiches and then cutting them open

21:35

and chung into the camera which is just i can watch

21:37

out forever it's people restoring

21:40

very old pieces of machinery

21:43

or equipment which looked terrible and then after two minutes

21:45

what price many new after they spent my clearly

21:47

like a hundred and fifty hours were like the the

21:50

actual thing they restored maybe cost and nineteen

21:52

us it's just a hilarious undertaking

21:55

all that said like

21:58

one the things i like about tic tac now

21:59

and i used to like about twitter and i think is happen

22:02

lessons you

22:04

would have these moments of someone just making an incredibly

22:07

funny joke out of nowhere credible

22:09

keen observation where

22:12

you know humans are unbelievably

22:14

magically talented and talent

22:17

with

22:19

musical genius voice it's all distributed

22:21

across the population that in no way correlates

22:24

to like race class affluence

22:26

privilege like people's ability

22:28

to be funny get like all that stuff

22:31

like

22:32

not constrained and not pre

22:34

determined ordered by all the social hierarchies

22:36

that we impose on humans right and

22:39

, internet at its best can explode

22:41

that in such a wonderful way and

22:43

when it explodes didn't want to was laid there is a

22:45

moment of recognition the least of your you know

22:48

i think you can feel like you can

22:50

laugh at can joke they may not be feeling the recognition

22:52

but you see like a real human consciousness

22:55

behind

22:56

what would it mean when wasn't

22:58

that the original hope of yeah infamous

23:00

for a better could like that

23:03

somehow if all of us are connected

23:05

spit connected spit sort of dissolve lines of

23:07

class and race yeah geography and helpless

23:09

brief was the other so then what

23:11

happened every as much

23:13

as what happened but then i start

23:15

to wonder you know there's all the

23:18

are usually the detecting if of make

23:20

this argument that it's not it's not the

23:22

structure of the social platforms it's just

23:24

off it's human nature this is what happens there

23:26

are good parts when we come together and connect

23:29

and there are bad parts and we come together and connect

23:31

and the bad parts or because we're human

23:33

and we have failings and we're not perfect

23:36

right and so is it to what

23:38

is it about the structure of the internet the has

23:40

done that has made this worse and

23:42

made the good parts that you're talking about so much

23:45

rarer yeah i don't

23:47

think i have an answer to that yeah i think what

23:49

i would say that to judge year point right like i think

23:51

that there's the to extreme versions

23:53

of this are the

23:55

tech people say it's just humans and

23:57

if you put a lot of humans together

23:59

the good stuff and best like

24:02

you get flash

24:05

mobs and ethnic killing yeah

24:07

just depends like way on how it how

24:09

it works out the

24:13

deep the opposite end of the argument

24:15

is that it's the algorithm me now he

24:17

hears a lot rights or it's the financial

24:19

incentives that are selecting

24:22

for certain kinds of human interaction

24:26

i think there's a lot to both of those

24:28

like i wouldn't say i mean i do think

24:30

the fact that

24:31

maximizing for attention which is what

24:35

a business level all these frameworks

24:37

have to do

24:39

that is going to have negative consequences because

24:41

attention again attention is not recognition

24:44

attention not human connection attention is very different

24:46

thing it's colorblind in

24:48

meaning if if the full texture

24:51

the human emotional life isn't color

24:54

like attention is is black and white

24:57

you're , attention to a bad tweet

24:59

and the algorithm is like who

25:02

laugh at work and it's working it's like whoa

25:05

someone says something horrible a monstrous like like

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the you just heard from chris

29:25

hayes hank green and roxane gay

29:27

the consensus the vibes or bad

29:30

on the internet there's a bride their

29:32

there are some things online this information

29:35

the rise of right wing extremism our political

29:37

debates the vibes have gun especially

29:40

bad the doctor guess who are changing

29:42

the way we think about these topics and

29:44

where my favorite conversations i shared was

29:46

with monica lewinsky about the ways the internet

29:48

has changed encouraged public shaming

29:51

the always known as cancel culture monica

29:54

his called herself patient zero of having reputation

29:57

destroyed by the internet the tenacious

29:59

reentered public life to fight back against online

30:01

bullying and public shame the months

30:03

ago she joined me to talk about the documentary

30:05

she produced about our culture of humiliation

30:08

it called fifteen minutes of shame

30:10

there's man

30:12

just in the people that you chose to interview

30:14

for the documentary so for for people who haven't seen

30:16

it i'm you guys decided to interview regular people

30:19

who have been publicly shamed for a range of reasons

30:21

a few people for mistakes that they made

30:24

one person for a mistake that people thought he made

30:26

but he didn't really make a m and

30:29

then one young woman taylor dumps and who

30:31

was just target in and harassed online by

30:33

racists and neonazis yeah so it really did

30:36

run the gamut from someone who some

30:38

people would think of is cancelled to someone who was just

30:40

targeted online right by

30:42

and harassed online by you know racists

30:44

make a which i thought was interesting that you if

30:47

i'd a huge range of people to cover

30:49

we we really wanted to

30:51

serve as his show the that

30:53

there are these different aspects of cancer

30:55

culture and that i say i mean to me i

30:57

think we we believe we would do

30:59

ourselves a big service in society

31:02

if we would find some other terms and kind of

31:04

break this

31:04

one of his i think that the phrase cancel culture

31:07

is almost useless , me

31:09

and thinking about this issue now years has

31:11

it's so loaded and has such a

31:13

connotation that is partisan

31:15

and nature now and politicized and nature

31:17

that even talking about public shaming

31:20

seems like a better term to describe

31:23

what you're getting out which is something outside of politics

31:25

and when it actually does to individual right

31:27

exactly and n m how it's used

31:29

because i mean we i'm in a

31:31

we talk in the dark and sort of where where we landed

31:33

with also this i think you eluded

31:35

to this before to is this idea

31:37

if seeming for change it was greatly hurt

31:39

you i think you guys talked about this the first example

31:42

of sort of shaming for change

31:44

or good public shaming he was like twenty

31:46

twelve in l a fitness yes

31:49

ah jim refused to

31:51

allow pregnant women to cancel their memberships

31:54

and everyone everyone started going crazy and

31:56

then they backed off and everyone's like oh

31:58

we have power here weekend people we get

32:00

home powerful corporations the companies

32:02

accountable and then i think some of

32:04

the doctors and then we sort of fell in love with

32:06

our own power and it went from holding

32:09

him a powerful accountable to now holding like any

32:11

one ml just going

32:13

after anyone for anyone reason all the time yes

32:15

well i dare devil jon ronson that

32:17

mm it it it's true and i think

32:19

we you know again what we see and sort of plugging

32:22

in this

32:24

the research from the dark that was so interesting

32:26

fit or tiffany what smith talked about with

32:28

son that day i

32:30

the sports teams like

32:33

the it says this was so powerful

32:35

to me it was you know when

32:37

they measured the brain activity of

32:39

people watching sport like watching the

32:41

sports team play who's there

32:44

was more

32:45

positive activity and

32:47

a positive association when the other

32:49

team lost a like missed

32:52

a goal then when they're

32:53

the team scored at all you

32:55

, i watch that mart and

32:57

i was like hey this is true

33:00

the airports and i get that and be

33:02

frighteningly it can be true and politics as

33:04

well a thousand priests i mean it's just

33:07

it's true right well and and rent battle

33:09

trump loses his

33:11

, know it's i've what i was thinking about the day

33:13

the dowd from finally lost yeah was nuts

33:15

i was very happy the joe biden wine

33:17

and i you know i i up when i saw

33:20

him and and and karma harris that night

33:22

and then integration but like the day

33:24

that he lost it was like fuck yeah donald

33:26

trump donald trump

33:28

yeah i cried as well so

33:31

i mean it was an for that's a scary

33:33

fab it with with fab with tiffany

33:36

later sad because i write this down because of really

33:39

suck out at me she said that throughout

33:41

history seven fraud is that it's most intense

33:43

when we are divided into rival tribes and

33:45

that's a very dangerous place for society to

33:47

play which drink

33:50

have a bigger question might saw this documentary there

33:52

is effect it public shaming

33:54

on the internet has on individuals

33:57

which that exported which you've lived

34:00

when i think is a larger effect on democracy

34:02

itself and and politics

34:05

and this like democratic product the room because

34:07

if we're in this place where

34:10

we're just so excited at the other side loses

34:12

and we're just gonna publicly same each

34:15

other as a substitute for

34:17

winning elections are passing legislation or doing

34:19

anything that happened once i'm trying to monitor

34:21

we we used to try to take someone down

34:23

right because we will institutions

34:25

have broken down democracy and democratic institutions

34:28

yeah broken our at all these institutions are broken

34:30

down into what do we have left publicly

34:32

shaming attacks

34:33

exactly get fucking much

34:34

a much more dangerous than

34:36

cancel culture has been the rise of the all right

34:39

we had a fair number of conversations about right wing

34:41

extremism on the show and unfortunately

34:44

i'm sure we'll have more the to from the

34:46

last year have stayed with me one

34:48

with in june with jennifer senior who the journalists

34:50

at the atlantic city just published a profile

34:52

of steve bannon and we talked about the way that

34:54

he manipulated the online gaming community

34:57

to see the alt right the the

34:59

moment in your piece that i knew this would make

35:01

a great offline conversation was the story ben

35:03

and tells about his days working

35:06

for internet gaming entertainment where

35:08

entertainment first learns about the size

35:10

and intensity of the online gaming

35:12

community can you talk about

35:15

yeah

35:17

it was really resting and i can't take

35:19

credit for it he told this

35:21

story to errol morris

35:23

in american dharma by the way

35:26

and that that was at a book kind of the moment

35:28

phd platforming is steve bannon

35:30

and so very few people saw

35:32

that and you should see it i

35:34

mean this is the argument again for

35:38

you know actually paying attention i will just

35:40

say by the way

35:41

people should see it i watched it the other night

35:43

again and in preparation for this and

35:46

i know there was there was of controversy after came out

35:48

i do not think it was a favorable

35:52

that picture of steve bannon in any

35:54

way and i thought it was actually people

35:56

should watch to know why to

35:58

the extent the a successful

35:59

the successful with his message either

36:02

correct exactly and that i'm hoping

36:04

that might pieces soon as the same

36:06

i mean and arrows you know

36:08

monique know myself to him he is uniquely

36:10

suited to that kind of project and here

36:13

, what happened happened he

36:15

knew just where this conversation was gonna go so is he

36:17

cheated up he said tell me about your time

36:19

at internet gaming entertainment gaming

36:22

and steve's that short and

36:26

i almost felt like he told the story before because

36:28

he told it perfectly and perfect

36:31

can track them once imperfect paragraphs he

36:33

said that when he within a hong

36:35

kong that was when he for and this this is in

36:37

the mid two thousand let's say starting in the

36:39

early two thousand he was

36:42

surprised to discover how

36:45

many people played these multiplayer

36:48

i'm online games i guess they were the world

36:50

of warcraft and all the others no

36:54

intensely the plate how many hours

36:56

they play and

36:59

that people would miss work to play

37:01

them and they were very identified

37:03

with their online avatar and

37:06

that was when he realized that

37:09

people online personas

37:12

were more we'll to them then

37:14

their regular then there is no

37:16

in person present and that

37:19

the that they prefer their idealized cells

37:21

and that and lot of the people who are doing

37:23

this we're angry isolated

37:26

men

37:28

and ah that

37:30

you could harness that energy

37:33

that they had

37:36

it could be weaponized that was is already could

37:38

be properly channeled and weaponized

37:40

politically and the example

37:42

he gave was the

37:45

from accounting the

37:47

from accounting with a two hundred and fifty pound man

37:50

for one day dropped it in

37:53

real life dave from accounting

37:56

the have barely got to church has a

37:58

few friends they have to rent

38:01

a preacher who barely knows him speaks

38:03

ten minutes they drop of in an earned and a perpetual

38:06

cemetery and nasty the

38:09

online dave dies online

38:12

dave is ajax

38:14

and

38:16

ajax dies it's a huge

38:18

deal

38:19

the the people show up for ajax's funeral

38:22

the rival tribe comes

38:24

out to fight the

38:26

men and women actually say home from their day jobs

38:29

to attend ajax's funeral and

38:32

i was watching this i thought oh my god

38:34

yeah if is

38:36

what have it on ,

38:38

six didn't exactly what happened on

38:40

january six people

38:42

showed up their avatars

38:45

they showed up in face paint and first

38:47

skirts with their own weird weapons

38:50

they missed a day of work they stormed

38:52

they capital and bought and rival army

38:55

they have no longer made

38:58

the distinction between my

39:01

life and will

39:02

i thought that nothing i've

39:04

read describes that

39:06

the temptations and the dangers

39:10

all my life better than that

39:13

analogy between dave and

39:16

ajax that he has given and yes

39:18

and can you talk about how benz ajax

39:20

theory informed his

39:23

years at breitbart

39:25

yeah so when he

39:27

realized

39:28

that

39:29

people the third their idealized

39:32

online cells that they were i'm the

39:35

more glorious selves but also

39:38

there in selves right i mean

39:40

they with her angry yourself

39:44

they're unfiltered sell one

39:47

of the first things he did when he got when he took over breitbart

39:49

was he took over the comments section and

39:51

he built in out making

39:53

this is where people are going to be their true

39:55

selves where i can harness on this energy

39:58

and also critically he

40:00

knew was gonna be a source of community because

40:02

this is ah the bowling alone stuff that robert putnam

40:04

wrote about in two thousand and all of our civic

40:07

ties have been under climb for twenty two years

40:09

were no longer

40:10

filling it with churches and political groups

40:12

the neighborhood organizations in the else squander the

40:14

rotary club year ago or what

40:16

do we have

40:18

online groups take the place of that for a lot of people

40:20

twitter takes the place for oil you know

40:23

that for lot of people you know

40:25

it's a community they are you know it's solidarity

40:28

and troll them you link arms

40:30

so how do we fight back against steve bannon stroller

40:32

me how do we change the mind of the ajax's

40:35

he created well according to you

40:37

tube or natalie when better known as counterpoints

40:40

we don't reach them with logic and reasoning we

40:42

reach and with empathy the you

40:44

come along and decide the your to create these videos

40:47

with the hope that they persuade people to think

40:49

differently about a range of political

40:51

and cultural issues persuasion

40:53

seems like the rare goal

40:55

of debate these days especially on the internet

40:57

or a i feel like it's even more

41:00

rarely achieved but you've

41:02

heard from right people who said

41:04

that your videos have rag

41:06

them out of their rabbit holes and and change

41:08

their mind like can you talk a little bit about

41:10

how you settled on your approach and your style

41:13

in in these videos

41:15

well

41:16

to me it i suppose first of i

41:18

don't can see where you to be to beat and

41:20

that's i think important part part of part of

41:22

sweden this works because and debate

41:25

as to your you go can't really be

41:27

to persuade certainly not the person

41:29

you're talking to because the v is

41:32

it's export sector point is to will try to women

41:34

yeah it's a decision dom and dominance

41:36

com kind of competition but

41:39

, i guess sometimes a regime

41:41

and videos as persists videos

41:43

from that that era era a cast

41:45

pseudo did the i guess where her ah

41:49

i respond to a figure that jordan

41:51

peterson reyes and

41:53

i guess to me persuasion if

41:56

it's an emotional of saying it's release

41:59

i don't know i guess the i'm interested in the psychology

42:02

of persuasion and and i just think the importance

42:04

of reason has been grossly overstated one

42:06

when it comes to what what how people change

42:08

their minds i think a lot of times the has

42:10

to do with a personality sensibilities

42:13

making people feel

42:15

like you kind of see where they're coming from

42:17

on some level is kind of this if

42:20

your entry point you kind of have to get people

42:22

to lower their defenses before

42:24

they're even open to reason and

42:27

that there's something that has more

42:29

to do with style than substance on

42:32

so i guess to

42:34

to me you it's about you know what when i come

42:37

out an are you if you want to give his jordan peterson fans

42:39

or whatever i don't know you have

42:41

to be in some way non threatening them

42:45

ah which is so i

42:47

got i guess that to me i used to try to sort

42:49

of achieve the swiss self deprecation

42:52

or you know like i'm trying

42:54

to communicate to the viewer i don't think i'm better

42:56

than you lists i'm not here to scold

42:59

you like your loud to think that i'm

43:01

trash or whatever legs but also like

43:03

the in either i think the nasa open them up

43:05

to your way of looking at

43:07

as you say like okay maybe

43:10

this a psychology professor who insists

43:12

said trans people wanted to be called

43:14

by pronouns is not the same thing

43:16

as maoism like you know you can sort

43:18

of given to see that that's somewhat of an

43:20

exaggerated claims

43:22

i mean but that is just a back to sort

43:25

of the opposite of the internet that

43:27

is the bet is just so different

43:29

from how most conversation

43:32

and most political conversation plays out

43:34

today as plays feel like you know their

43:36

response to trump

43:38

and trump is i'm over the last several

43:41

years has been so focused on like we're

43:43

going to fact check the right before

43:45

we're going to find the truth or the media must

43:48

actually tell the truth or journalists have to do their

43:50

jobs and it's all about truth and reason

43:52

and i think what you're saying

43:54

is that it it's much more about

43:58

emotion and sort of understand

43:59

in where people come from a sound like

44:02

a by using is about empathy and some sort of see

44:04

i think so it had empathy is helpful

44:06

and that you said it's have to know

44:09

you got out of yoda guess how people are feeling

44:11

in order to resonate

44:13

on a frequency that that that that they're gonna pick up

44:16

on i think that that's

44:18

a skilled as sort

44:21

of not really part of

44:23

i mean it's certainly not very much part of a

44:26

western philosophical tradition and

44:28

any kind of idea of the debate that comes from that

44:30

like it's not a

44:32

united this idea in the plato's dialogues

44:35

for example relaxed the in a like

44:37

, even player kind of figured it out cause socrates

44:40

they do kill him on the fritz

44:44

that the us i thought the conclusion of socrates

44:46

being sentenced to death

44:48

is like oh this retreat from democracy

44:51

as is awful thing and oh he to create

44:53

this you know this academy

44:55

where we only let and people who are sort of

44:58

and have studied trigonometry and and

45:00

who are open to to to reasoning and they'll see

45:02

see to truth and well i

45:04

don't think even that will work don't think to me i

45:07

guess i have to me like psycho analytic

45:09

few of

45:10

running laker i don't know

45:12

that a lot of it's kind of unconscious

45:14

as motivated by anxiety and identity

45:17

as opposed to being a creative process

45:20

of at of reasoning to conclusions from premises

45:23

the conversation with natalie reminded me of another

45:25

i had earlier in the year about misinformation

45:28

abby richards a tick tock this information

45:30

researcher talked about how the best way to combat

45:33

misinformation the through inoculation

45:36

you know it return value strategies not just debunk

45:38

but to inoculate people against

45:40

conspiracy saudi how do you do that what

45:42

what works with the inoculation process

45:45

like minutes as basically like

45:47

a vaccine samples perfect

45:50

the idea is that you provide

45:53

some that he was like a small

45:55

dose tiny little just kind of

45:57

like the vaccines i guess introduce

45:59

what of i was meant look like and then european

46:02

system has had fight it off it's a

46:04

similar

46:04

and you get introduced

46:07

to either

46:14

spreading misinformation

46:17

the years i have any that shown

46:19

what outlook food and know

46:22

your brain kind of almost like you're the into

46:24

stamps

46:25

on new

46:27

and different you're confronted with that like outside

46:30

the assassination

46:31

that's interesting i'm one of the most common

46:34

questions we always get from putting america

46:36

listeners america listeners how

46:38

do i talked to my family members who been

46:41

radicalized by right wing

46:43

this information

46:44

what's what's your advice for those of us who don't

46:46

have a a huge platform

46:48

on texas ah a

46:50

my thirties advice though it's look after

46:52

yourself psyche she's ever feel

46:54

either to have to go

46:57

again with the things that make

46:59

you feel as safe or just

47:01

a really upset like you have

47:04

to take care of yourself first one

47:05

i'm and then my second piece

47:07

of advice would be if you have your

47:10

friends and family that are hardcore believers

47:12

and billie or not

47:13

the to get out it's

47:15

helpful to make

47:17

there are encouraged floating on encourage

47:20

and

47:32

and

47:44

if it possible for yeah i

47:46

always recommend that

47:49

you let them know that you're still gonna

47:52

be there the in may want

47:54

to get out that

47:55

right there for them and then i'd you love them

47:57

you terrible time you wanna see them

47:59

in an emotionally

48:02

the place anywhere support

48:04

them but you don't need to necessarily

48:06

what up with olive

48:09

there

48:10

y or z

48:13

dangerous police to support you

48:16

know you can be there and priests and

48:18

does

48:20

you want my support i'm here but i'm not

48:23

do you have

48:26

it does seem like coming to the conversation

48:28

with some level of

48:30

empathy

48:31

there's probably a little bit more

48:34

effective then why

48:36

do you believe this crazy thing that bad

48:38

assists actually asking

48:40

why can

48:41

really really helpful

48:42

oh interesting

48:44

i would i wouldn't go find

48:46

you bleed this crazy beliefs

48:49

yeah that might upset them if

48:52

they're like they're world's as vampire

48:54

and city hall and

48:57

pandemic of sixty like

48:59

why did they think the

49:01

hey man and see

49:03

in why

49:22

that may be edited is just a

49:24

leaf

49:26

how does the microchip sit into

49:28

the syringe that gives you the vaccines

49:30

specificity of fifty two so

49:33

his show me where it goes in the needle offensive

49:35

manner them resistance is can you

49:45

a hypothetical my bridgehead

49:47

don't

49:50

know how do you feel that companies testing and something

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offline

55:01

none

55:04

of these conversations give me much hope that we

55:06

could effectively regulate social media

55:09

even if we had a functioning political system

55:11

the fundamental problem is that these platforms

55:13

are designed for maximum engaged

55:16

they make money the more we use them and the more

55:18

reuse them the more they fuck with our brains

55:20

and our world pretty bleak that

55:24

even if we might be screwed as a society

55:26

individually we still have agency

55:29

there's been a lot of the show focusing on ways

55:31

that we can develop healthy relationships with our

55:33

screens first and

55:35

i would take from my conversation with jenny odell

55:37

author of how to do nothing

55:39

one of the many places in the book where i found

55:41

myself nodding seriously with

55:44

where you compare our social media driven

55:46

news cycles to the us sleep deprivation

55:49

tactics that the military uses hunt detainees

55:52

and your theorists your theorists ah

55:54

quote one of the most troubling way social media

55:57

has been used recent years as to foment waves

55:59

of hysteria and fear both by

56:01

news media and by users themselves whipped

56:03

into a permanent state of frenzy people create and subject

56:05

themselves to new cycles complaining of anxiety

56:08

at the same time of a check back ever

56:10

more diligently why

56:12

do you think what is it about us that keep

56:14

checking back in the even know it makes

56:16

us more anxious

56:19

you know i think i have an even worse opinion

56:21

of this than i did

56:22

when i wrote a book i think i

56:24

it was like

56:26

no i still do think it's like an emotional thing

56:29

of wanting to i

56:32

know what's going on and then wanting to be seen and heard

56:35

it like want to be connected other people especially

56:37

when something dangerous going

56:39

on rape that's a natural thing nice but

56:41

i but it sort of com recently

56:43

more it to think that it's like like i said

56:45

it's just the sort of like hamster wheel like the

56:48

open a thing like it just turns out that like we

56:50

love checking things

56:52

yeah think it could really be that simple

56:54

as to say

56:57

that's something that our brains

56:59

like to do is like a loot that you got india

57:02

yeah it's like it's sort of like this

57:04

addiction to new information

57:07

all the time like has anything

57:09

changed as anything new with there and updates

57:12

which i don't know why i thought

57:14

about this a lot like why do i always needs

57:16

some kind of new piece of information

57:19

to keep going i can i just be like happy

57:21

with what is right now

57:24

yeah well and sometimes i wonder if suddenly

57:26

vanessa

57:26

really a problem like other this could be know this is

57:28

just me but i am obviously and nature

57:31

enthusiasts may it like i write about

57:33

that in the book i think you know

57:36

people might think of the outdoors is like very

57:38

peaceful neutral

57:40

he like it's quiet like nothing's going

57:42

on it's not like that to me it has to family

57:44

riot of it as if like you

57:47

know i'd and even more if you have this loop saying

57:50

great even , the live with of

57:53

air or by now killers or whatever

57:56

i think

57:58

an ip the put i was trying to get out in the book

57:59

like either you can

58:01

train your attention

58:03

the should be able to look

58:07

for these kinds of changes

58:09

and why i'm and want to call them

58:11

updates but they are in i'm looking i'm a winner in out

58:14

updated like a guy just walked up the species varieties

58:16

of i was just thinking this you know last

58:18

week i was in the mountains and was like maybe this is

58:20

like

58:21

the one place where i'm never bored is

58:23

actually here was it always like that for

58:25

you were you talked about sort of training

58:27

your attention to focus

58:29

on or other contenders are was this just

58:31

were you always just always nature enthusiasm

58:33

this came natural to

58:36

i think i

58:37

i don't know

58:38

the really about the nature

58:41

context

58:42

the guy sort of i'm familiar with that from childhood

58:45

and i i came back to it but

58:47

i think what i have i always

58:48

hard was have always been very curious

58:52

and that sort of an orientation

58:54

that you know no matter what you sort of direct that i you're

58:56

going to be looking closely and waiting for

58:58

things to change and seeing that things are changing

59:01

nom and so i actually you

59:03

know it's like you hear people say oh

59:05

people need to learn how to be bored

59:08

the gun and i i don't know that

59:09

the agree i think it's more just like

59:11

me you should embrace your your

59:14

the desire to learn new things

59:16

and perceive new things and maybe the problem isn't

59:18

that

59:18

the problem is that the context in which

59:20

applying it and the fact that it's being exploited

59:23

the really about four

59:25

that in itself i think that's like

59:27

i love leave thing as mean

59:29

zero like alive and you're paying attention to things

59:32

guinea are dealt point about how our attention is

59:34

exploited and abused by social media was

59:36

really driven home and another conversation

59:38

i had with an actual expert in addiction

59:42

here's some of my conversation with doctor an olympic

59:44

professor of psychiatry at stanford university

59:47

and author of the new york times best seller

59:49

dopamine nation so i'm

59:51

like a focusing on the digital aspect of our

59:53

job or meet addiction to that of the shows all about you've

59:56

called the smartphone the modern day

59:58

hypodermic needle the isn't

1:00:00

really that bad

1:00:02

i think so so few that the actual

1:00:04

hypodermic syringe was invented in the eighteen

1:00:06

sixties and when it was first invented

1:00:09

it was going to be the solution to the growing

1:00:11

one of morphine addiction and need

1:00:13

state the idea was that if you took

1:00:15

the morphine and new injected it directly

1:00:17

into the venus

1:00:18

them i'm people wouldn't

1:00:21

get addicted of course that turned out to be the

1:00:23

opposite of true ah

1:00:26

, there are many many anecdotes like that

1:00:28

in the history of you know technology

1:00:31

and the into the smartphone has

1:00:33

accelerated the growing problem addiction

1:00:35

because of the twenty four seven

1:00:37

access one of the big factor

1:00:39

the what makes something addictive is quantity

1:00:42

and frequency of how often we use it

1:00:44

if again you think about that pleasure pain balance

1:00:46

it's probably okay if we indulge in intoxicants

1:00:49

on occasion as long as we leave

1:00:52

enough time in between for the know adaptation

1:00:54

gremlins the hop off and for homeostasis

1:00:56

or base indo mean firing to be

1:00:58

restored but the senate or bounces

1:01:01

tip to the side of pain we he knew

1:01:03

instinctively wanna get out of that place

1:01:05

we reach for more of our drug and there it

1:01:07

is ah you know then

1:01:09

naturally were going to find ourselves

1:01:12

much more quickly

1:01:13

a circling the drain that

1:01:15

is in of the problem of addiction

1:01:17

there any my own clinical practice i saw an explosion

1:01:20

the early years of the to

1:01:21

thousands more and more people

1:01:23

coming in with severe addiction to gambling

1:01:26

or pornography

1:01:28

and really into the story was

1:01:30

was very common it was like well i always

1:01:32

kind of gambles are always sunny use a little bit

1:01:34

of pornography though it wasn't until i

1:01:36

got the smart

1:01:37

though nothing's really got out of control

1:01:39

yeah i got was so interesting that you made the point

1:01:41

that the internet promotes compulsive

1:01:44

overconsumption not merely by providing

1:01:46

increase access to drugs old

1:01:48

and new but also by suggesting behaviors

1:01:51

the otherwise may never have occurred to us

1:01:53

so facing the just being exposed to

1:01:55

addictive substances in behaviors can actually make

1:01:58

us more addictive

1:01:59

oh

1:01:59

absolutely i need access is

1:02:02

one of the biggest and underappreciated

1:02:04

risk factors for the action so the risk

1:02:06

factors but basically can be grouped into three buckets

1:02:08

nature nurture neighborhoods there's

1:02:10

clearly an inherited component or vulnerability

1:02:13

and the way we are

1:02:14

the rave matters if we have parents

1:02:16

who explicitly or implicitly condone substance

1:02:18

use that's can

1:02:19

affect our addiction risk but neighborhood

1:02:21

is huge and neighbor that refers this idea of

1:02:23

do you have access to this drug is it readily

1:02:26

available can you get it easily

1:02:28

when you run out can you get more mean

1:02:30

just think of a world in which you

1:02:32

had the same access to cocaine

1:02:34

as you do to tic tac there

1:02:37

would be assholes the people who

1:02:39

would be severely addicted and we already have a cocaine

1:02:41

problem but minutes just as

1:02:43

nowadays in that to tic tacs it's crazy

1:02:45

i mean it's just it's infinite right

1:02:48

arm so and the other

1:02:50

part of that too

1:02:51

there's the suggest ability part

1:02:53

and humans are very very suggestible

1:02:56

there certainly temperaments that are less

1:02:59

suggestible than others teenagers

1:03:01

so are particularly that time of life you

1:03:04

know is one of the highest adjustability

1:03:06

meaning that peer pressure on has

1:03:09

on has effect but we're all vulnerable

1:03:11

to that and when we

1:03:12

see somebody else doing

1:03:14

something if suggests the

1:03:16

idea to us and then we want

1:03:19

to do it that's just human nature and

1:03:21

that's where social media even separate

1:03:23

from social media addiction or addiction to

1:03:25

social media but social media intersecting

1:03:28

with addiction traditional drugs is really really

1:03:30

this is like you

1:03:32

the people making videos or themselves using

1:03:35

a particular drug and then i

1:03:37

other teenagers seeing that are people

1:03:39

saying that months ago i want to try that

1:03:41

stuff like that

1:03:43

so i'm sure there's some listeners

1:03:45

right now thinking like what i'm not bad addicted

1:03:48

to my phone you point out though

1:03:50

the addiction is a spectrum disorder and

1:03:52

can you talk a bit about that

1:03:54

yeah so it's clearly you know it's

1:03:56

clearly on a spectrum the diagnostic

1:03:58

and statistical manual the city

1:03:59

and actually made a big change

1:04:02

to ignored as to spectrum disorder you

1:04:04

know not everybody is equally addicted

1:04:06

to whatever

1:04:07

the drug is

1:04:08

we're a little bit addicted some people are a lot

1:04:10

addicted where they lost everything as

1:04:12

a rough result of their addiction and then there's kind of this prediction

1:04:15

state where people are and of engaging in

1:04:17

compulsive overconsumption but

1:04:19

not necessarily mean

1:04:20

or threshold criteria for addiction

1:04:23

wilson it's important to note that there's no

1:04:25

blood test her brain scan to diagnose

1:04:27

addiction we based on based on what we call phenomenology

1:04:30

or patterns of behavior but

1:04:33

i can tell you that the pattern of addiction

1:04:35

to

1:04:35

the thing is like social media

1:04:38

a video games online

1:04:40

pornography etc is identical

1:04:42

to when people get addicted to drugs and alcohol

1:04:45

and it's kind of a progressive disease

1:04:47

so you don't we all start out a little bit addictive

1:04:50

and that some of us are able to can recognize

1:04:53

it and

1:04:53

the correct those people probably

1:04:55

don't have the disease of addiction

1:04:58

or the innate

1:04:59

extreme vulnerability whereas others

1:05:01

once they get going on their drug of

1:05:03

choice will have a very

1:05:05

very difficult time

1:05:07

about seeing it and stopping

1:05:09

it even once they do see it i think

1:05:11

that's the core piece of addiction is the loss

1:05:13

of agency of course ultimately

1:05:16

we all retain some agency or

1:05:18

most of us retain some age i can think

1:05:20

of circumstances are all agency has

1:05:22

lost but agency as greatly

1:05:24

diminished in the disease of addiction

1:05:27

want to close out with one final moment it's really

1:05:29

stayed with me from a conversation i shared with

1:05:31

surgeon general vidic mercy

1:05:34

it just bring thing full circle tell

1:05:37

em casa sousa technology

1:05:39

serious the you may be familiar with or this

1:05:41

great essay early in the pandemic about

1:05:44

doom scrolling and he basically argue

1:05:46

that what we need in times

1:05:48

of uncertainty like the one we're living through

1:05:50

is not more information which

1:05:52

probably won't give us the certainty

1:05:55

that were craving but more friendship

1:05:58

which helps sustain us through the certain

1:06:00

to you would you agree with that

1:06:02

absolutely

1:06:04

the more we learn about human relationships

1:06:07

the more we learn about how powerful

1:06:09

they are as a source of healing

1:06:11

the buffer for stress and anxiety

1:06:14

you know we

1:06:18

the thing edison this is to me one of the most

1:06:20

powerful things about relationships is that

1:06:23

we have survived over thousands of years

1:06:25

because of their relationships we had with

1:06:27

one another you know the person

1:06:29

who tried to go it

1:06:30

in his or her own you know thousands

1:06:32

of years ago when you're under his you gathers like

1:06:34

you know what happened that person they die

1:06:37

fighting i didn't buy the predator they start because

1:06:39

of an inconsistent food supply was the people

1:06:41

who built

1:06:42

rusted relationships

1:06:44

the truly survive

1:06:45

johnny know when i think about

1:06:48

going to come back to our kids name so

1:06:51

much of our oh my friends are kids are parents

1:06:53

and for me it's changed the filter through which

1:06:55

i think about the world to the when i think about

1:06:58

what i want for my children

1:06:59

more than anything else in the world

1:07:01

it's the i want them to be happy

1:07:04

i wanted to be fulfilled by

1:07:06

they want them to the

1:07:08

had deep meaning i can in their life

1:07:11

then it

1:07:12

that is not going to come necessarily

1:07:14

from the job they have or how much ends

1:07:17

up in their bank account or how many awards they

1:07:19

have to put up on their wall and to

1:07:21

me that's where the that the thing that i

1:07:23

worry about with modern society rank as

1:07:25

modern society tells us that our self

1:07:27

worth comes from whether or not we're

1:07:29

successful they define their

1:07:31

success is our ability it

1:07:34

to either accrue well

1:07:37

our

1:07:38

or thing

1:07:39

those three things know our will we define

1:07:41

is being successful and he had all three while you're super

1:07:43

successful i think about the movies that

1:07:45

we make in the books to be right about individuals

1:07:48

that we hold up a successful there are some

1:07:50

people who have achieved fame

1:07:52

our or well

1:07:54

the reality is you know what i think about

1:07:56

people and time that i have cared for in the astral

1:07:59

over the years people who are at the end

1:08:01

of their life the

1:08:03

people who are actually reflecting the

1:08:05

most meaningful moments of their journey

1:08:09

eerie hear them talk about how wealthy they are

1:08:11

or how much power than very

1:08:14

few and and talk about how famous

1:08:16

they were me followers and on social media

1:08:19

they would talk about in those final moments

1:08:21

of lived on their relationships

1:08:24

the people they love the people

1:08:26

they missed the people whose

1:08:28

life they were grateful to be a part

1:08:30

of it's it's so clear john

1:08:33

editors final moments of life when

1:08:36

everything but the most meaningful strands of

1:08:38

by fall apart fall away the

1:08:40

were rises to the surface our relationship

1:08:43

i just don't think that we have to wait till the end of our

1:08:45

alive to come to that realization i

1:08:48

think of it has given us an opportunity

1:08:50

the reset to reassess

1:08:52

and understand what really and truly matters

1:08:55

in life that is our relationships

1:08:57

is one another and that's why that's what i want for my children

1:09:00

is tooth for them to lead a

1:09:02

truly connected life that's why

1:09:04

i think we have a thing notice an opportunity

1:09:06

that an imperative the kid

1:09:08

invest in our relationships as

1:09:10

individuals but also as a society to

1:09:12

figure out our institutions in

1:09:15

support relationships with how do we

1:09:17

design workplaces the support

1:09:19

healthy relationship switching colleagues

1:09:21

had we design school as a the kids a

1:09:24

foundation for building healthy

1:09:26

relationships and earliest and ages

1:09:28

and heavy cream neighborhoods which model far

1:09:30

children the community is more

1:09:33

than the family that you're born into it can

1:09:35

be your neighbors and those with whom you share

1:09:37

in common ground so this to

1:09:39

me as the great challenge you know of our moment

1:09:42

and also the great opportunity if we see that

1:09:44

to build them are connected world i think we will be more

1:09:46

fulfilled i think we will be healthier

1:09:48

they will be happier and that to me as

1:09:51

the as definition of success

1:09:53

that we can hope for

1:09:54

offline will be back in a few weeks the

1:09:57

soon

1:10:05

offline is

1:10:07

a cricket media production it's written

1:10:09

in hosted by me john favour it's

1:10:12

produced by austin fisher into

1:10:14

, is our audio editor tiles

1:10:17

eglin and certainly the sound engineer the show jordan

1:10:19

cats and kenny siegel take care of our music

1:10:22

music to tony so many to michael martinez

1:10:24

eighty gardener bernstein irish worth eighty task

1:10:27

and cindy gerard for production support into

1:10:29

our digital team eliza cone normal

1:10:31

coney and cone normal mon to who film

1:10:34

and shearer episodes his videos every

1:10:36

week