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twenty two, three four Twenty eight texting apply Prices. We

1:02

need to be able, we need lots of people saying Joe

1:05

Biden is great. But it's okay

1:07

to vote for Joe Biden and just think Joe Biden

1:09

is okay. And if

1:11

you think Joe Biden is okay, you are

1:13

welcome in our campaign. If you disagree with

1:15

Joe Biden, you are welcome in our campaign.

1:17

Like, if you're having a conversation with your

1:19

friend who's like, I can't possibly vote for

1:21

Joe Biden, I hear you.

1:23

And I disagree with him on X,

1:25

Y and Z Point, but he's been really good on

1:28

this issue I care about, and this issue I care

1:30

about, and this issue I care about. And ultimately, this

1:32

election is about whether or not we

1:34

are moving our democracy forward and

1:36

we are protecting our freedoms and

1:38

all that stuff. You know, people,

1:40

that's believable and plausible. Hey

1:47

everyone, it's Jon Favreau and you just

1:50

heard from today's guest, Rob Flaherty. I'm

1:52

in DC this week, so I thought I'd sit down

1:54

with one of the most extremely online people I know

1:57

who also happens to have the job of making sure

1:59

Donald Trump is here. Trump doesn't become president again.

2:02

Rob ran digital strategy for the Biden campaign in

2:04

2020, then he became the director of digital strategy

2:06

at the White House after his boss won. And

2:10

today, Rob is back on the campaign trail

2:12

working as Biden's deputy campaign manager. I

2:14

wanted to talk to Rob because if you haven't noticed, quite

2:16

a bit has changed since 2020 when

2:19

it comes to communicating with voters. The

2:21

media environment is more fractured. TikTok has evolved

2:23

from a dance app to a national security

2:25

threat. On Twitter, the platform that

2:27

defined the Trump era is, to

2:30

put it charitably, no longer what it once was.

2:33

A Biden versus Trump rematch may make it feel like

2:35

we're reliving 2020, but when it comes

2:37

to digital media, the election could not be any

2:40

more different. I've been curious about how the Biden

2:42

campaign is thinking about these seismic shifts, how they're

2:44

attempting to reach voters, what messages they think will

2:46

cut through the noise, why the

2:49

campaign joined TikTok, and what their plan is

2:51

to win the internet. Rob

2:53

and I talked about all of that, plus why

2:55

he thinks it's important to acknowledge voters' frustrations, why

2:57

the campaign's spending more time trying to get volunteers

3:00

to talk to their friends and family, and

3:02

what he thinks of Donald Trump's digital

3:04

strategy. Since I'm on the road, we're going

3:06

to skip the news block this week and get straight to

3:08

the interview. Here's Rob Flaherty. Rob

3:14

Flaherty, welcome to offline. Thrilled to be here, John.

3:16

All right, I want to start with the most

3:19

important headline about your current gig. This is from

3:21

the Boston Globe. You're threading

3:23

native Rob Flaherty to serve as deputy

3:25

manager of Biden Re-election Campaign. That's right.

3:28

You've made our little hometown proud. Go Hornets, you know.

3:31

You also made me feel old since you graduated 10 years

3:33

before me from our high school. You

3:36

know, just brutal. Different generations. Although I remember

3:38

very vividly walking back into the high school

3:40

being like the kid who comes back, you

3:42

know, whatever. And there's, you know, I had

3:44

been in politics, you've been in politics,

3:46

and there was a giant picture of

3:48

you and no picture of me. I

3:52

did not even know that. So you

3:54

have quite a lead. If you don't know, about

3:56

100 people graduate from our threading high every year.

3:58

So it's not a big... big of

4:00

a deal. So I

4:02

do want to start there because I'd

4:04

love to know how and and why

4:07

your area of expertise in politics became

4:09

digital strategy and communications. Yeah it's funny

4:11

I got into it like

4:13

the embarrassing things like I got into it because I watched

4:15

the West Wing and I was like I want to do

4:17

that you know like among us and now

4:19

you say that and it's embarrassing but but no

4:23

and then you know I wanted to be kind of

4:25

a press person but I went to school for television

4:28

production and video editing and all that stuff

4:31

and so when I graduated and I did all this

4:33

like political stuff in college

4:35

and thought that would you know get me

4:37

a job pretty easily once I graduated and it didn't

4:40

and so I took

4:42

an internship on Terry McAuliffe's campaign and they were

4:44

like does anyone here know how to edit videos

4:46

and I was like oh I guess I do

4:49

and so I just started making hashtag

4:51

content and then I just

4:53

kind of kept moving. So you did digital

4:56

for Hillary in 16, Beto in

4:59

20, Biden White House after

5:01

that and now the Biden reelect. Yeah.

5:03

How has the job changed over the

5:05

years? Well I

5:07

think like the

5:09

biggest I think the biggest shift from the

5:11

20 campaign to now is

5:14

Ryan Broderick has garbage

5:16

day which is a really great. I love

5:18

garbage day. Yeah it's awesome and he kind

5:20

of talked about like

5:22

the public internet and the private internet and the

5:24

way that things are splitting between the places where

5:26

people kind of consume discourse and the places where

5:29

people talk to their friends and I actually

5:31

think that splintering is like really important. In

5:36

2022 I think it was or no last year Adam

5:38

Asari who's the CEO of Instagram said that half of

5:40

the content that gets shared on Instagram happens in private

5:43

and so one of the biggest shifts I

5:46

think has been that we

5:48

actually as people who do digital need to actually be thinking

5:50

about how do you get people to like share stuff in

5:52

their group chats and talk to their friends and

5:55

and sort of rethinking it's not enough just to like plaster

5:57

content out there and like hope people will see it you

5:59

have to think about about the distribution network

6:01

too. So

6:03

that's sort of linkage between this and organizing that I

6:05

think is really the biggest change.

6:08

I wanna get into that a little more. How

6:11

do you, like how has the

6:13

media environment changed? Obviously there's

6:15

the, as you mentioned the

6:17

split between like the public and private internet.

6:20

But there's also just been this like complete

6:23

splintering of where

6:25

people are getting their news from, how

6:27

much they're paying attention to the news. And

6:30

that has, I imagine all kinds

6:33

of effects on public opinion, on

6:35

what people view. It's just like, it feels like

6:37

the, usually people talk

6:39

about shared reality like in the context

6:41

of disinformation, but even disinformation aside, it's

6:44

just people who are

6:46

consuming information about politics right now just

6:48

aren't in the same reality because there's

6:50

so many different sources. Like how did

6:53

you guys think about that? Well, I

6:55

think, because like everyone talks about fractured,

6:57

Balkanized media environment, but it's really that it's

6:59

personalized, right? And I actually think the biggest

7:01

distinction is not just that people who are

7:03

on the left and people on the right

7:06

live in different realities. It's that people who

7:08

follow politics and people who don't follow politics

7:10

look very different realities. And- Which

7:12

is most people. Which is most people who don't follow

7:14

politics. Right, and so like, for us, this

7:18

presents a real challenge in a number of ways. One,

7:21

if you look at this election, the voters

7:23

who show up all the time and

7:25

really care about politics and are paying attention to

7:28

traditional political media, we're winning

7:30

a lot of those voters. It's why we're winning these

7:32

specials. It's why we're winning these midterms. Trump has his

7:34

sporadic voters who are gonna show up. And

7:36

the question is, what happens to our sporadic voters

7:38

who are deciding between, not Joe

7:41

Biden and Donald Trump, but Joe Biden in the couch. And

7:45

for a lot of those voters, I mean,

7:48

we clocked it maybe

7:51

a month ago about 40%

7:53

of them did not think Donald Trump was gonna be

7:55

the Republican nominee. Has that

7:57

number changed at all? It's gotten smaller. as

8:00

he gets more coverage, but the

8:02

truth of the matter is these are voters who have

8:04

other things to do to pay attention to politics. And

8:07

for us, they are really important

8:10

constituency. And those

8:12

voters are seeing tons

8:14

of media. I mean, the average voter, we

8:16

have a clock that consumes 12 and a half hours

8:18

of content a day. And that's not just- And those

8:20

are people who don't pay close attention to politics, that's

8:23

just content in general. Average everybody, just content and everybody.

8:25

And that's overlapping, right? That's being on your phone

8:27

while you're on TV. It's just like a lot,

8:30

but it's just a bananas

8:32

amount of stuff that they are seeing. And when

8:34

a lot of it is not political, or it's

8:36

political on the margins, it's really hard to communicate.

8:38

And so for us, it means you gotta be

8:40

in more places, both from a paid

8:43

media perspective, which is just like, you gotta

8:45

diversify how you think about paid media. You

8:47

gotta diversify how you think about earned media,

8:49

right? The president does all these interviews with

8:51

influencers and content creators and engagements

8:53

with them. And then also you need

8:56

to think about how you get to people through who they

8:58

ultimately trust the most, their friends and their family. So

9:00

talk to me about

9:02

the beginning of this campaign. You've

9:05

got the media environment you just

9:07

described. You've got a

9:10

fairly grumpy electorate. You've

9:13

got a president who has

9:15

accomplished an enormous amount, is

9:18

not getting credit for it, is

9:20

getting blamed for things, many of

9:22

which are largely beyond his control. What

9:25

are the initial strategy sessions like in

9:27

terms of like, all right, this is

9:30

how we're going to communicate and

9:32

reach people, and this is

9:34

how much we're gonna think about making

9:36

sure people know what Joe Biden has accomplished. This

9:38

is how we're gonna think about laying

9:40

out the choice between he and Trump in

9:43

terms of the content that you're putting out

9:45

there. Well, so a couple of

9:47

things is we came in knowing that

9:49

we don't actually, the playbook needs

9:51

to change. And that there's

9:55

plenty of stuff that we know works and

9:57

will be part of the arsenal. There's

10:00

just some assumptions that we need to really pressure

10:02

test. And so this is really the advantage we

10:04

had of having a

10:07

incumbency and having a campaign and having, by the

10:09

way, a DNC that was the political arm for

10:11

a while. We spent four years sort of refining

10:15

and testing tactics. If you look at last

10:17

year, we had this like $30

10:19

million ad buy that we started in like

10:22

August and these

10:24

organizing pilots that were sort of sitting

10:26

under them at the same time in

10:28

Arizona and Wisconsin. And the goal

10:30

of that was to go like what tactics

10:33

are going to work, what messages are going to work, all

10:35

that stuff. And I think there's like a couple

10:37

of things that we found like trust

10:39

is like the real variable here. Like in

10:42

this, with an electorate feeling the way that

10:44

it does with the media

10:46

environment that it is like who people trust

10:48

really matters. And so, you know,

10:51

certainly we found like we tested different

10:53

media mixes. We found the ways that

10:55

people consumed information were really different and

10:57

really surprising. And the places where

11:00

they are, you know, we needed to be in different places. Messengers

11:03

really mattered. Like having the president in

11:05

content to so folks could see him

11:07

more directly matters. Validators

11:10

and testimonials really matter. People sharing their

11:12

stories themselves. And I think that

11:14

connects. Like I think there's a through line between

11:16

that, people responding to

11:18

people talking about

11:20

their experiences with the president's accomplishments and how it's

11:23

made a difference in their lives. And

11:25

the fact that also we believe that that

11:27

is key to our organizing system. Right. And

11:32

so that kind of ties in with the organizing

11:34

pilots, which is, you know, we sort

11:36

of believe that this community,

11:39

like people say relational, but it's really organizing your

11:41

community in a very traditional sense,

11:43

you know, that this

11:45

kind of like relational community organizing stuff where people

11:47

talk to their friends and their family, you know,

11:51

the hit on it was, well,

11:54

if your volunteer base is all

11:56

well educated. Right. Why

11:58

are they going to reach out? because that's probably who all

12:00

their friends are. And so this

12:03

woman, Ruhi Rustam, who's our organizing director,

12:06

came up with this system in these pilots to

12:10

find organizers from those communities, recruit

12:12

them at scale, and then have them

12:14

recruit volunteers that they know. And

12:17

so what we were able to develop through those

12:19

pilots was a really good system of getting

12:23

hard to reach volunteers to reach hard to

12:25

reach people through conversations

12:27

and through content. There's still more we have

12:29

to learn, but I think to

12:32

your initial question, it's like when we think about 20, the

12:36

problem set that we walked into, we

12:38

spent basically all of 2023 sort of refining,

12:42

testing, experimenting with the

12:44

idea that we don't have all the

12:46

answers quite yet. But

12:48

now we're starting to scale in states and a lot

12:50

of those learnings are gonna be part of the core

12:52

program as we move into the general. Talk

12:55

to me about the type of content that

12:57

you create, because I imagine as

13:00

you're trying to reach a

13:02

cohort of voters who don't

13:04

pay a lot of attention to political news, who

13:08

don't trust a lot of institutions

13:10

or news, trust their friends and

13:12

family, like giving them

13:15

traditional political content,

13:18

a 30 second ad that you'd see in any

13:20

campaign or like a

13:22

list of talking points that's like, Joe Biden did

13:24

the chip set, that's probably

13:26

not gonna resonate because these

13:29

people have sort of like a finely honed

13:31

bullshit detector. What

13:33

kind of content have you found really resonates

13:35

with some of these harder to reach voters?

13:38

It's a couple of things, it's funny, because

13:40

I said this on PODSAAY, but it's like

13:42

if I texted a graphic that said Bidenomics

13:45

is working to my group chat, I would

13:47

get hammered, I would be

13:49

removed. And I think that that's, I

13:53

think one of the places where we had to

13:55

evolve, which is like political, like political campaign content

13:58

makers are great at making very glossy. the content

14:01

that feels great, it's

14:03

like an ad. But people actually, when they got

14:05

in there, were like, well, I'm not gonna share

14:08

that. Right. And so there's

14:10

an aesthetic proposition, which is we have

14:12

to make it less aesthetic,

14:15

whatever. But we've also found that people like

14:17

to share articles, they like

14:19

to share, one of the

14:21

things we've worked on training volunteers on is how to,

14:25

and this is complicated, I'm not

14:27

good at it 100% of the time, how to share

14:30

content without it seeming like propaganda. Yeah.

14:33

How to make it feel authentic. And that might be, like sharing

14:35

content might just be, I post it on

14:37

Facebook, or I put

14:39

something in a group chat. One example came

14:42

from someone who was, we were bouncing ideas off, was

14:44

like, actually what you should be doing is sharing stuff

14:46

to your friends going, what do you think about this?

14:48

It's like a neutral observer. Versus,

14:50

and ask for their reaction, and then you can have

14:52

that conversation. Because actually what you're trying to do online,

14:56

like I think people conceive of this as like, oh

14:58

I share a graphic on my Facebook feed. But what we're actually trying to do is

15:02

start a conversation in the same way that we would ask

15:04

you for a relational conversation, where it'd be like, oh I'm

15:06

gonna go talk to John. It's the

15:08

idea of, okay great, well I've posted this thing,

15:10

and these people have reacted to it, and now I

15:13

can engage with them further. And so it's like how

15:15

do you use it as a starting point? So it's

15:17

less a content equation, and more a conversation equation. What,

15:20

where are most of your

15:22

target voters getting their news from

15:24

these days? I'm always so curious

15:26

about media diets and how they've

15:28

changed. Yeah, you know it's really

15:30

interesting. It's hard, it's hard because there's what

15:32

they tell you, and then there's like what is actually true.

15:34

If you ask the question of where do you consume news,

15:36

it's like, well of course I watch CNN. But then the

15:39

ratings don't bear that out. Sorry CNN.

15:41

No, you haven't asked me enough. You

15:45

know, there's, what I think is true

15:47

is that like, what

15:49

we've seen is that where people are getting

15:52

information is pretty similar, age is

15:54

the biggest distinction. Whether

15:57

it's not race or any of this stuff. Like if you

15:59

ask what. where you are physically getting it,

16:02

it's like it tends to be a little

16:04

more TV for older audiences, less TV for

16:07

younger audiences, more social media for

16:09

younger audiences, and that's true across race, across

16:11

gender. But once you get to those places,

16:13

it's just insanely different. I

16:16

think a couple of things that are true

16:18

for a lot of these voters is the

16:20

role of local news still matters, and I

16:23

think people in politics say that to the

16:25

point of cliche, but it really is true. A

16:27

lot of people watch local news. And

16:29

that's television, because that's a lot of papers. Local

16:32

television. The

16:34

thing people see about is Google search. We

16:37

did some research on where do you go when news

16:39

breaks, and search was right up there,

16:41

people are going there. Which is, by the way, campaigns

16:44

don't invest in SEO in the same way that

16:46

they ought to, or

16:49

search advertising, which certainly I think that we're

16:51

paying a lot of attention to. So it's

16:55

those sort of surfaces. But

16:57

I also think that, and it's

16:59

sort of like the TikTokification of everything,

17:01

is that people are getting news and

17:04

information from just people.

17:08

Got to the text chain, group threads,

17:11

people are just, that's how they're getting

17:13

along. Yeah, and there are people giving

17:15

their commentary, like a 25 year old,

17:17

or 21 year old college kid is

17:22

giving their commentary on the news and getting millions of

17:24

views, and that's where people are hearing about it. The

17:28

problem is I can't say where are people getting

17:30

their news because it's super personalized

17:32

now. The challenge seems like,

17:35

just listening to it, it's like gives me a headache. It

17:39

feels like you almost have to relinquish some

17:41

control here over

17:43

the entire communications apparatus

17:46

because the idea that you're gonna

17:48

blast out a message and it's gonna get to

17:50

everyone is just, that's been long

17:52

dead. Yeah, no, it's absolutely right.

17:55

And we think

17:57

about sometimes, the

18:00

messages we put out from our accounts,

18:03

the president's accounts, I

18:05

always think it's better to think of them as like

18:07

a distributed talking point. Like

18:10

people are looking at us to go, what are they

18:12

doing? And then they're riffing. And that's great. And like

18:14

one of the things that I think we're working through

18:16

is like, what do we use? Like Trump

18:18

is really good at this, which is like using his

18:20

social accounts to encourage further

18:22

content generation, you know? Like

18:25

that kind of thing. So

18:27

yeah, there is like a, you have to kind

18:30

of let people talk about it in ways that

18:32

feel real and authentic to them, but give people

18:34

a sense of like a clear theme and

18:37

then they can iterate off of it. On

18:40

ads, since there's so many people like

18:43

cutting the cord, obviously you're still gonna spend a

18:45

lot on linear television, spend a lot of ads

18:47

on there. But a lot of people are going

18:49

to platforms or streaming services. A

18:51

lot of them like don't allow political ads. How

18:53

are you guys handling that? Yeah, well, it's, you

18:56

know, first a lot of them don't allow political

18:58

ads and a lot of them don't, like a

19:00

lot of the big ones don't have ads at

19:02

all or barely have ad supported. And so, you

19:05

know, I think that is like one of the challenges

19:07

which is like, I don't think we can actually write

19:09

off linear television as a surface, but you

19:11

have to just think about where, like

19:15

where people are when they're watching linear television, right?

19:17

Like if you look at the top

19:19

100 broadcasts on TV, I think

19:22

like 99 of them last year were sports games

19:24

with like 90 of them being the NFL or

19:26

some like crazy number like that. Like, you know,

19:28

I think we are seeing that you kind of

19:30

want to shift to the, like

19:33

not the long tail, the short end of the tail where

19:36

there's like higher audience on TV. And then

19:38

yeah, like there's just limited, more limited

19:40

places when you get to streaming. That being

19:43

said, I think we write off social

19:46

as a persuasion surface for advertising

19:48

in like a, in a real way. And I

19:50

think a lot of times, You know, people

19:52

go, well, it's just, you know, it's good

19:55

for fundraising or direct response and all that

19:57

stuff. But actually, you know, there is a

19:59

plan. The of empirical evidence that

20:01

social media changes mindsets assess assess up.

20:03

Ah, observing it, actually getting ads are

20:06

still as effective as they were. I

20:08

always wonder this from again like an

20:10

authenticity perspectives like if someone hears from

20:12

her friend or sees a piece of

20:15

contents just floating around that a somewhat

20:17

persuasive on why they should vote for

20:19

Joe Biden like that would be more

20:21

effective than oh I know this is

20:23

coming is an ad coming from the

20:26

Biden campaign. I think that there's real

20:28

to to that which is I think

20:30

I'm that but I think people's bullshit

20:32

Ahmed or is just hire new Am

20:35

but it's not. The ads don't matter.

20:37

I think I actually don't think that

20:39

that's true. What I do think is

20:41

is is true. Is.

20:44

Like. No one's ever going to tell you

20:46

they were persuaded by an ad says he

20:48

says they have desk at this ah but

20:50

you do start to hear that stuff like

20:52

one of best indicators of and you know

20:54

this is of of is it add setting

20:57

in his do start to hear about it

20:59

on the doors you know guy and and

21:01

it's not because people are like why father

21:03

sad that said this is because the thing

21:05

has sorta sundance. I think it's the reality

21:07

is it's a whole system and the ads

21:09

matter as part of a system but they

21:11

have to be reflective of what people are

21:13

also talking about with their friends for. And

21:15

so like this is the this is the

21:17

new thing which is like how do we

21:19

think about messaging through our supporters to their

21:21

friends in ways that is part of the

21:23

same system as the advertising the we're putting

21:25

in front of them as the content that

21:27

we're putting out so that there is it's

21:29

it's you know they're sort of any or

21:31

game and around game I'm on the way

21:33

that we are messaging and not just on

21:35

you know the others are field system for

21:38

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23:26

most valuable resource on a campaign

23:28

is the president's time. How

23:31

would you guys think about using his

23:33

time in terms

23:36

of reaching out to

23:39

voters, communicating, doing interviews,

23:41

producing content, all that kind of stuff? Well

23:43

I think you have to step back on

23:45

goals. So like a great example is we

23:47

went to North Carolina a couple

23:50

months ago and what we

23:53

had Biden do is go sit down at

23:57

a family's kitchen table and do like an an

24:00

hour-long discussion with his father and his

24:02

two sons. And it

24:04

was closed press, it was just for us. And

24:08

we initially conceived of it as, oh, we'll get some

24:10

content, and it'll be like a great digital moment. But

24:13

actually, first

24:15

he walked in, and there was a big

24:17

pool spray, which all these reporters

24:20

taking photos, whatever. And

24:22

then he goes in, we worked

24:24

with the kid to make a TikTok of the

24:26

experience. Kid puts the TikTok out, gets five million

24:28

views. Leaves, all

24:31

the reporters come, the family gaggles. And

24:33

what we got was amazing local news

24:35

coverage. And then this video from

24:37

the kid got like five million views. It got

24:40

picked up by Barstool and Complex and the Shade

24:42

Room and all these places. And

24:44

if you look at the goal of, you have to

24:46

like step back to what your goal is. If your

24:48

goal is to drive local coverage with a rally, we

24:51

just did that. With this format that

24:53

actually plays to the president's strengths, because he can

24:55

talk to people in a way that Donald Trump

24:57

could never dream of. And

25:00

so, what it means is like, I think given

25:03

the environment has changed so much, we have to like rethink like,

25:05

what are we actually trying to achieve? Like

25:07

a big rally with lots of cameras that

25:09

generates local news coverage, great. We also did

25:11

that with this. But that rally, like a

25:14

rally also generates data for the field program.

25:16

So that's a huge, like there's just different

25:18

stuff. So we really have to rethink the

25:20

president's time. I think the

25:22

other thing is, in

25:25

the environment that we live in, there's

25:27

no true broadcasts anymore. You

25:30

can only like go around collecting narrow casts.

25:33

So you'll see the president and vice president

25:36

do these engagements with creators who might

25:38

have, I

25:41

don't know, like the vice president went

25:43

on a couple of like more niche podcasts,

25:45

but that audience is an audience we really

25:47

need. And so, I

25:49

think like as you're seeing, there's all

25:51

this sort of gripes about, oh, the president's not sitting down

25:54

with traditional media, but those traditional media outlets all talk to

25:56

the same people. I was

25:58

gonna say, are you saying, sitting down? with

26:00

a bunch of New York Times reporters so

26:02

that the president can just have a couple

26:04

quotes in a story that's framed by someone

26:06

else. That's not the most valuable use. Might

26:08

not be the way to reach voters today.

26:11

We're sitting here, is this whole White House,

26:13

New York Times controversy.

26:16

Yes. Stupid controversy has

26:18

erupted. But my initial thought on that

26:20

was like, it's not about

26:22

how the Times covers the president. It's not about the

26:24

president, I want to take questions. It actually is about

26:27

the fact that the New

26:29

York Times, while still the

26:31

biggest media outlet in the

26:33

country and still quite influential,

26:35

is no longer as influential as it once

26:37

was. Not for any fault of the Times

26:39

itself, but just because of everything

26:42

that we've been talking about so far. There's so many other

26:44

ways that people are getting their news and

26:46

if you're using the president's time, you have to

26:48

think to yourself, okay, how many people read the

26:50

New York Times are already Biden voters? That's right.

26:53

Right. And what good

26:55

is that gonna get you guys from a campaign perspective?

26:58

Totally. And I'm not here to

27:00

denigrate the New York Times. I am myself a

27:02

subscriber. I'm a subscriber, no, I love you. But

27:04

the problem is that we're subscribers. Right. And

27:08

we're good, we're voting. And

27:10

we're voting for Joe Biden, I think. I'm

27:13

in, I'm in. You're like,

27:16

Bobby curious. But,

27:19

so it's that we have

27:21

to be really intentional about the voters that we need. And the

27:23

voters right now that we need to figure out how to talk

27:25

to, it is probably rare that they

27:27

are going to the New York Times. And so

27:30

we need to go to where they are. And so that's how

27:32

we think about it with how we use the president. Everyone

27:34

made a big deal about the Biden not sitting

27:36

down for the Super Bowl thing. Is

27:39

that, was that because you guys thought that maybe, I

27:42

know, I saw you guys say that like,

27:44

well, if he does that, you

27:47

know, people are just trying to watch a game and

27:49

they're gonna ask him all these tough questions. Did

27:52

you think that he wouldn't get a bunch of

27:54

questions that would fit with the mood of people

27:56

watching Like a sporting event

27:58

or what was, what was like. The thinking

28:00

they're either used to think about that,

28:02

the context of of of where people

28:04

were. I mean it's just like you

28:06

know, I was at a Superbowl party.

28:08

The last thing I want to do

28:10

is like talk about like you know

28:13

X, Y and Z Contentious issue of

28:15

Felix introduced to people for the first

28:17

time. Special Counsel Robert Heard My son

28:19

says it's not were like it's not

28:21

where people like there's there's a potential

28:23

of. Like. There are

28:25

times where talking about politics can really turn

28:27

people off. yeah, assists ah Ad and you

28:30

hear that you know year that wrigley around

28:32

a lot of sports games like leave the

28:34

politics out of it so you know I

28:36

just think that there are other places and

28:39

other times where I'm. Were

28:41

able to have to have that discussion and

28:43

and the President has had that discussion day

28:45

in and day out. With

28:48

with reporters asking him questions all time.

28:50

So it's just it is seen as

28:52

a larger talons. This people getting

28:54

sick of but tired and exhausted by

28:56

politics after all of us having to

28:59

like live in the second Trump Purgatory

29:01

for eight years I think it's tricky

29:03

as noticing my i feel like we

29:05

notice it to even a m like

29:07

us as well as but this is

29:09

a core of of junkie for us

29:11

who are paying attention yeah but the

29:13

universe of people who I feel like

29:15

and sixteen and even twenty were like.

29:18

Active and engaged. Even that there's some

29:20

frame married people are like. I'm just

29:22

tired eyes. If it's true, I think

29:24

I'm. At work I've. Been

29:27

working on stuff in Donald Trump now

29:29

for like ten years you know and

29:31

I mean avenue all that bad that

29:34

that like this. I think people are

29:36

certainly experience in the spice but I'll

29:38

say it like every election is different.

29:40

This election. Is like a different

29:43

here. There's a lot of pent up anti trump energy

29:45

and in twenty in in in this one there's like

29:47

a couple things that are different. One trump is less

29:49

visible. The media

29:51

has covered him less he's not

29:53

on Twitter doing his thing. Ah

29:55

ah ah to like. You

29:59

know Trump is it suited darker, He's darker.

30:01

You know them for the version of the

30:03

country he is presenting is darker. But I

30:05

think what you're going to see is this

30:07

is an election where with people going to

30:09

tune in late ah I'm at and that

30:11

is true. The voters who are are are

30:13

not paying attention. It's true of folks who

30:16

are like or a ago you may may

30:18

energy back up the fight this but you

30:20

know I think there are. We're

30:22

We're starting from a good foundation. one of

30:24

the things in my job that lives outside

30:26

of like. Highfalutin thought about media

30:28

environment is like I also over the grassroots.

30:31

Program. Brushes Hundred Reverence. You know if

30:33

you look at Joe Biden donors who have

30:35

one point six million grassroots donors forty percent

30:37

of them are knew I was pretty made

30:39

for that and so you know what that

30:42

tells me is like there's there is that

30:44

energy that is sitting, there are and is

30:46

just a matter of like people starting the

30:48

clock in and an addict l happiness as

30:50

Trump gets more coverage in battle happen as

30:52

as as we start to get closer and

30:54

and the steaks get fire and so you

30:56

know that stuff is all part of it.

30:59

But there's definitely a. Ah,

31:01

You know I think I think I think all folks

31:03

are are recognizing like okay we have do this again

31:05

and and and as them and that's that. Certainly a

31:07

factor. I hope someone and

31:10

and your campaign told The New Yorker

31:12

for that Evan Osnos piece that they

31:14

are pulling was broken like United talk

31:16

forever about like the for the problems

31:18

with public polling yep and could still

31:20

whole episode on us but like internally

31:23

do you guys feel good that you

31:25

have a. Approximate. Sense

31:27

of. Where the electorate

31:29

is in the key swing states

31:31

A I think We I think

31:34

we do and like. Breaking

31:36

News it's gonna be a really close elections at

31:38

upset at that like ah, you know, at like.

31:40

I'm not here to say it's going to anything

31:42

because last time we only one by forty five

31:44

thousand bucks an hour as I keep family even

31:47

as he puts all argument with the ponies for

31:49

all the pulling aside yes, You would end

31:51

you'd you couldn't see it. Yeah, we just say. The

31:54

last, like sixteen was close. Twenty was close.

31:56

In out. Twenty four is literally a rematch

31:58

between the to be the era twenty. yeah

32:00

it, it's just gonna be close. And there's

32:03

like a couple of things about that which

32:05

is like one. You look at it structurally.

32:08

You know from the issues that

32:10

we are running on that are

32:12

popular, from the fact that our

32:14

court challenge is winning back voters

32:16

who already voted for a specific

32:18

and I'd winning backed is persuading

32:20

them to participate. Cm Where Trump

32:22

has to expand. The. Amount of

32:24

voters who voted for him which he has

32:26

shown no real interest in doing so. Yes,

32:29

I'm you know I would rather be holding

32:31

our cards there's that doesn't mean I'm sitting

32:33

here saying this is gonna be anything but

32:36

hard. It is going to be a a

32:38

tough election is going to be close but

32:40

forty five thousand votes is the margin of

32:42

execution. Yeah and that is the margin of

32:45

a really good campaign with really great supporters

32:47

do and really good work and shown up

32:49

and volunteering and making calls and donating doing

32:51

all that stuff like I find the closest.

32:54

Of election to actually be really empowering

32:56

because you'd like you can do something

32:58

if you don't think you can move

33:01

is of as a person. ten votes,

33:03

fifteen votes you can do it and

33:05

and and then you multiply that like

33:07

that's like that's a pretty we can

33:09

do that what you side with a

33:12

couple times. I'm empowering the volunteers yet

33:14

in the organizers to like Go Be

33:16

Messengers Yeah for five rows talks about

33:18

this to what's like. Getting.

33:20

Into the details, how do you do

33:23

that? Like if someone comes the campaign

33:25

and is like I'm a volunteer I

33:27

live in Michigan I want to go

33:29

do my saying yeah like Woody Woody

33:31

you arm those people us to one

33:33

or things. But. One thing that came out of

33:35

those. Pilots. Was the

33:37

idea is that. I'm.

33:40

Different. Volunteers one a volunteer in different ways

33:42

right to. There are plenty of volunteers, were like

33:44

i don't wanna talk to a single friend of

33:46

mine You know what I want to do I

33:48

want to go not endorse of guess and I

33:51

want to make some calls us and there were

33:53

plenty of people who were like Iowa, knock a

33:55

single door and talk to a single stranger. I

33:57

will talk to my friends and there was one

33:59

lady. Just like literally I did three

34:01

hundred relational contacts like in two weeks

34:03

in Arizona who is like one of

34:05

the great heroes of the early stages

34:07

of as I already do ha you

34:09

know and so like. One of the

34:11

foundational principles for our our program is

34:14

to say did see no kind of

34:16

like Com as you Are Right Am

34:18

like if you want to do something

34:20

we want to give you the tools

34:22

to to do that thing and a

34:24

will be impactful and it will matter

34:26

you know in the context of talking

34:28

to your friends. Year

34:30

one of the things that reaches sort of

34:32

our our app of choice and it basically

34:34

we do is sign up in and it

34:37

is dumb you you can match your contacts

34:39

it'll tell you who. You

34:42

know you know that we need you to

34:44

talk to them anything but it also provide

34:46

you with galleries of contents at the either

34:48

a starting point and of get out there.

34:50

some stuff that we are like there's like

34:53

there's some said we're gonna have what? Like

34:55

one of the things it's true about the

34:57

way we're setting up our States programs his

34:59

arm. The run by really experienced people

35:01

who have one those states before and

35:03

they're given real attitudes. do it they

35:05

need to do to win those states

35:07

and so different states are going to

35:09

try different things in different ways of

35:11

getting people to share content, getting them

35:13

talk to their friends. for example like

35:16

if were writing off what's app which

35:18

is a just and absolutely massive platform

35:20

for latinos are really anyone who has

35:22

a large immigrant communities a p I

35:24

hope to the South Asians are we

35:26

are. We're not talking to people said

35:28

like different states are gonna have to

35:30

play around with that so greedy sort

35:32

of the core foundation but there's gonna

35:34

be be a lot of variance of

35:36

of how we apply it every a

35:38

different states. Having

35:44

a team feels like having your own

35:46

live and influencer somehow. You know, the latest

35:48

make up trend and the fact that. Skinny jeans or

35:50

not, and as flowering plants now it's time

35:52

for you to. Bomb! what's up Thanks

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April twenty Korea of many large to

35:59

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36:02

only six ninety nine each. And

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live and influencer somehow. You know, the latest

36:53

make up trend? and the fact that skinny. Jeans are

36:55

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36:57

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37:01

April Twenty eighth carry out at many.

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Large to having pizza, spend time in as

37:06

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37:08

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37:10

Domino's pizza. some never go out of

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37:14

the time of her belly for twenty. Two, three four Twenty eight pick me

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up. High prices for to stay and interest neither. Huge

37:24

difference between Twenty Four is

37:26

like twitter. Yacht what it

37:28

once was yeah, says was no longer

37:31

pushing news gif. Ted.

37:33

Talks is no in limbo.

37:37

How how do you think about like

37:39

the different social media platforms? Elegance his

37:41

twitter I assume twitters sort of what

37:43

you're saying before, mainly a platform to

37:45

kind of the communicate with. Journalists.

37:48

Yeah, we're shaping public opinion. sort of like

37:50

elites who are going to go out there

37:53

and say public opinion. That mean we are

37:55

you guys who twitter now? Yeah, it's it's

37:57

it's helpful to like. Think about it as

37:59

the. Place for high attention

38:01

people and give you. I

38:03

think it is certainly diminished

38:06

as. As a

38:08

as as a surface for that but

38:10

as long as reporters are still there

38:12

be known as long as as people

38:14

are still using it Been a we

38:16

we are gonna engage their you know

38:19

I think I think the the biggest

38:21

differences the uncertainty around organics content. Across

38:24

the board reggae his own him some.

38:27

We get used to be twitter was the

38:29

place where that the the there were two

38:31

advantage to do it one elites were on

38:33

it but to the place you can a

38:35

break into culture like get you know a

38:37

good tweet can move to different audiences there

38:39

and then it becomes like a whole thing.

38:42

And we've had a click. a couple of those. Are

38:45

increasingly though like Instagram from Be A Service

38:47

for That and like Tic Toc really is

38:49

yet sir, I'm and and I think it's

38:51

important like that the public and private internet

38:54

construction we talked about earlier I think is

38:56

is sort of an indicator. On this which

38:58

is like Twitter to behavior at the end

39:00

of the day like what goes on on

39:02

Twitter is there are people who want to

39:04

talk about politics and people who want to

39:06

watch people talk about politics and they want

39:08

us. Ah an end and that idea that

39:11

people are watching the discourse happened in that

39:13

discourse is happening in certain places there's different

39:15

platforms where that is gonna live but the

39:17

places where people talk to their friends that

39:19

is like that is shifting and like we

39:21

need a strategy to deal with that So

39:24

it's sort of a to prom obviously the

39:26

that present senator. Tock or the legislation

39:28

that forces by dance domestic zoc

39:30

the up within certain amount of

39:32

days till January. The probably go

39:34

to you guys are Salon and

39:37

Mccann Pain. For. Obvious

39:39

reasons that it'll varied and be on us.

39:41

Are there any like privacy concerns that you

39:43

guys how in the campaign or like you

39:45

just have like a like a burner phone

39:47

is literally? yeah. Okay, that's it. over here.

39:50

Oh yeah, I mean like you know we're

39:52

we're not taken any. risks

39:55

on this and and and certainly we

39:57

going clear eyed about the platform as

40:00

that come with TikTok. We

40:02

have no bearing on what the government does with

40:04

it. But

40:07

we have to take those precautions. And at the

40:09

end of the day, as long as it's a

40:11

place where people are getting information about the president,

40:13

it's a place where we need to be inserting

40:16

our side. Have

40:18

you guys gotten blowback from TikTok influencers

40:20

that you're working with because of the

40:22

legislation? It

40:24

varies. We hear from folks

40:27

on both sides of it, honestly. We

40:30

hear from folks who are like, this is a little sus. We

40:33

hear from folks who are like, this is gonna be hard for me. We

40:36

do that outreach. The official side does a lot

40:38

of that outreach too, the opposite of digital strategy

40:40

and everything Christian's doing over there. But

40:44

folks have different opinions on this and

40:46

we're gonna continue. Keep

40:49

moving ahead. I've heard you talk about

40:51

the importance of communicating in a way that meets people

40:53

where they are. So acknowledging

40:55

that whatever frustrations they may

40:57

have, anger, making sure

40:59

people know that they don't have to agree

41:01

with everything that Joe Biden believes in or has done

41:04

to vote for him. That is

41:06

the kind of nuanced, thoughtful approach

41:10

that is what politics is all

41:12

about, right? That's what door-to-door organizing is all about.

41:14

It doesn't really sit well online. How

41:16

do you translate that to the work that you do? Well,

41:19

but here's my thing. Is like, I... This

41:25

is my perpetual frustration with politics. Yeah, I

41:27

know, 100%. I feel like why I started

41:29

this. Yeah, the entire thing. Like

41:32

to me, I thought AOC

41:35

gave a really eloquent answer along

41:37

these lines, which was even if

41:39

you are, and this is

41:41

assuming you're someone with sort of a lefty political

41:43

valence, but if you're someone

41:45

who is mad at the president for X, Y, and Z

41:47

reasons or has X, Y, and Z policy disagreements with him

41:50

and you're coming at him from the left, what

41:53

conditions do you wanna organize under? And

41:56

what conditions do you wanna be doing your work under

41:58

to advance? against your agenda, do you want someone who's

42:00

going to be open to it or do you want

42:03

someone who's going to be totally close to it? I

42:05

think that is a really compelling argument. My

42:07

thing is like we

42:10

need to be able, we need lots of people saying Joe

42:12

Biden is great, but it's okay

42:14

to vote for Joe Biden and just think Joe Biden is

42:16

okay. If

42:19

you think Joe Biden is okay, you are welcome in our

42:21

campaign. If you disagree with Joe Biden, you are welcome in

42:23

our campaign. Joe Biden would be the first one to say

42:25

this. He's a president for all Americans.

42:29

And so I think that at the end of

42:31

the day, folks making the argument

42:33

that I disagree with Joe Biden on X, Y,

42:35

and Z, or I would have liked

42:37

to have seen him do this

42:40

thing, but I'm going to vote for him because

42:42

it's really important. That's fine. That's

42:45

part of the tent.

42:48

And candidly, there's some evidence we've seen in testing that that

42:50

is a really good way in. If

42:52

you're having a conversation with your friend who's

42:54

like, I can't possibly vote for Joe Biden,

42:57

I hear you and I disagree with

42:59

him on X, Y, and Z point, but he's been

43:02

really good on this issue I care about and this

43:04

issue I care about and this issue I care about.

43:06

And ultimately this election is about whether or not we

43:09

are moving our democracy forward and

43:11

we are protecting our freedoms and all

43:13

that stuff. That's

43:16

believable and plausible. It's

43:18

interesting you mentioned that, but AOC,

43:20

because at Cricut, I'll notice

43:22

that when we post clips that are favorable

43:25

of Joe Biden, I notice this on

43:27

all platforms everywhere now and I'm sure you guys see this,

43:29

it gets flooded with a lot of conversation

43:31

about Gaza because people

43:33

feel very strongly and we've talked about it a lot on our

43:35

pods too. But when

43:38

I interviewed Bernie on Pods

43:40

of America and Bernie both

43:43

in one clip criticized Biden on

43:45

Gaza, but then gave the

43:47

answer similar to AOC, which is like, this is

43:49

why it's so important to elect Joe Biden. The

43:52

comments on that were more

43:55

favorable towards Biden and Bernie.

43:57

Like it's seen. Yeah. there

44:00

is like, are you guys trying to create permission

44:02

structures, not just with young people, but with like

44:04

all kinds of different groups that are sort of

44:06

at the edge of the coalition that elected Biden?

44:09

This is, it's the, this part of the campaign

44:11

is the age of permission structures. That is what

44:13

this is. There

44:15

are tons of, and

44:17

I, and actually one of the things that has

44:19

been a gripe for me about the campaign is

44:22

there are tons of enthusiastic Joe Biden supporters. They

44:24

are just not very loud on the internet. Yeah.

44:27

You know, and, and we

44:29

see that in the fact that we have

44:31

this big grassroots fundraising machine that has,

44:34

has proven to be really effective and really stable.

44:37

It is, there are a lot of voters who just love Joe

44:39

Biden and they're here for Joe Biden. Our

44:42

coalition needs some people who are like, you

44:45

know, and that's okay. And,

44:48

and that's right is, is how do we create

44:50

the permission structure for them to go? All right.

44:53

You know, I'm voting for him even if I don't

44:55

agree with him on literally every single thing, which you're

44:57

never going to agree with every politician and every single

45:00

thing. And yeah, and this goes

45:02

back. I mean, it's a very Bideny ethos,

45:04

which is like, don't compare me to the almighty,

45:07

compare me to the alternative. Yeah. And

45:09

and, and, and I think that it's really at the

45:11

core of it. What do you think

45:14

about the Trump campaign's digital strategy? Anything

45:16

that impresses you or keeps you up at night? I

45:18

think that the Trump team is, is the

45:22

stuff you've talked about, about letting encouraging

45:25

an ecosystem that will amplify them. They

45:27

are really good at it. And

45:31

look, we'd be dumb if, if, if, if we

45:33

weren't watching them, there's some

45:35

stuff that they do where I'm like, I

45:37

don't know about that. And I have always

45:39

sort of thought that the

45:42

2016 Ooga Booga about

45:44

their digital ads strategy was

45:46

like a little over rot. But

45:48

they're smart. It's a more disciplined version

45:51

of Trump, certainly. But,

45:54

you know, not without, or not,

45:56

well, more disciplined version of the Trump campaign.

45:58

No, that's really Trump. But I

46:02

think that there's some stuff over there

46:04

that they're doing that's sharp and it's

46:06

gonna be tight. Why do you think

46:08

he hasn't come back on Twitter? I

46:10

don't know and I don't wanna speculate, but maybe

46:13

it is trying to, I'm

46:17

like, I don't wanna speculate now, I'm speculating. I mean,

46:19

there were thoughts that it's like a financial. That's

46:22

my bet. Yeah, I just, and then there's

46:24

thoughts that, I mean, the

46:26

reason I ask is there's

46:28

a larger challenge and you mentioned this before, that

46:31

people have not seen as much Trump

46:34

since he's been off Twitter and he's been sort of out, and

46:37

now they're seeing more of him, especially with the trial going

46:39

on. And I always

46:41

wonder if that's a concerted stretch, if

46:43

there's the campaign, which is a little

46:45

bit more disciplined, is actually saying to themselves,

46:48

a little less Trump would be better, knowing that

46:50

they have a guy who's, they're not gonna be

46:52

able to keep him out of the limelight. But

46:54

I was sort of wondering if they're purposely trying

46:56

to sort of cordon him off a little bit.

46:58

Yeah, I don't know. I

47:02

think that the

47:04

more people hear about Donald Trump and

47:07

the more people see Donald Trump, the more they

47:09

are reminded. And there

47:11

are times where he says

47:13

something that's funny or goofy and like the

47:15

non-political world goes, oh, ha, ha, ha, that's

47:18

funny. But at the end of the day,

47:23

his recession in voters' minds is

47:25

an advantage to him. And

47:29

so we have to do the work of drawing attention to

47:31

him and making

47:34

sure reporters are seeing it and

47:36

covering it, making sure that voters are seeing

47:38

it in their feeds. That's why this like

47:40

Biden HQ strategy is like one that we

47:42

adopted pretty early was

47:44

because we just, there

47:47

needs to be more Donald Trump in people's periphery.

47:51

So the stakes are raised in their eyes. Last

47:54

question. How do you, like,

47:56

what is your media diet? How do you

47:58

keep up with, are you? you just like,

48:01

you guys have like a campaign email where you're getting clips

48:04

all day or you just like mainlining Twitter, like what are

48:06

you doing? You know what's funny? Well, so it's like a

48:08

couple of things. One, I, you know, like I'm still on

48:10

Twitter a good bit though not as much as I used

48:12

to be. I

48:14

do occasionally dabble in

48:16

TikTok myself, I would say. You

48:20

know, it's like funny for me, like, I

48:25

actually like, I never watch cable. Like, I don't know

48:27

what's going on on cable on a given day. But

48:30

yeah, I think it's like a mix of like

48:32

Twitter, you know,

48:35

TikTok and then what's funny too

48:37

is, you know, we're used to clips email distributions

48:39

but we actually do it via a giant text

48:42

chain now. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so it's like, which

48:44

is like a new way of doing

48:46

it. So easier than just getting random

48:48

individual stories. Yeah, exactly. So

48:51

it's sort of the nice thing about working in the business

48:53

is there's a fire hose in my

48:55

phone of what the

48:57

heck is going on in a given day? Rob

49:01

Flaherty, thank you so much for joining offline. Appreciate

49:04

the conversation. Thank you, John. Go Hornets. Before

49:09

we go some quick housekeeping, Pod Save America

49:11

is hitting the road this summer. The Democracy

49:14

or Else Tour all begins in Brooklyn on

49:16

June 26th followed by Boston on

49:18

June 28th. Then we'll head

49:20

to Madison, Phoenix, Ann Arbor and Philly.

49:22

See all the tour dates and get

49:24

your tickets now at cricut.com/events. So,

49:33

offline is a Cricut Media production. It's

49:36

written and hosted by me, John Favreau, along with

49:38

Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fisher.

49:41

Emma Ilic Frank is our associate producer, mixed

49:44

and edited by Jordan Cantor, audio support

49:46

from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis. Jordan

49:48

Katz and Kenny Segal take care of

49:50

our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeleine

49:52

Herringer and Reed Cherlin for production support.

49:54

And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn

49:56

and Delon Villanueva who film and share

49:58

our episodes as videos. every week. The

50:19

Coder, a podcast from The Verge about big

50:21

ideas and other problems, is now publishing every

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Monday and Thursday on Mondays. They bring their

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