0:00

On-being with Krista Tippett is supported

0:02

in part by the John Templeton Foundation, funding

0:05

research and catalyzing conversations that

0:07

inspire people with awe and wonder.

0:10

Discover the latest findings on neuroscience,

0:12

cosmology, and the origins of life

0:15

at templeton dot org.

0:17

To me, one of the most fascinating

0:19

developments of our time is that

0:21

human qualities we have understood

0:24

in terms of virtue. Experiences

0:26

we've called spiritual are

0:28

now being taken seriously by science

0:31

as intelligence as elements

0:33

of human homeless. And

0:36

Dacher Keltner and his Greater Good Science

0:38

Center at Berkeley have been pivotal

0:40

in this emergence. From

0:42

the earliest years of his career, Dacher

0:44

investigated how emotions are

0:47

coded in the muscles of our faces.

0:49

And how they serve as moral sensory

0:51

systems. The way of feeling

0:54

like sadness or fear or a sense

0:56

of injustice goes on to

0:58

infuse how we see everything

1:00

that's happening. He was called

1:02

on as emojis evolved. He

1:04

consulted on Pete Doctor's groundbreaking

1:07

movie, Insideout. And

1:10

all of this, as Dacher sees it now,

1:12

led him deeper and deeper into

1:14

investigating the primary experience

1:17

of awe in human life. Moments

1:20

when we have a sense of wonder, an

1:22

experience of mystery that transcends

1:25

our understanding. These,

1:27

it turns out, are as common in

1:29

human life globally as they

1:31

are measurably health giving

1:34

and immunity boosting. They

1:36

bring us together with others again

1:39

and again. They bring our

1:41

nervous system and heartbeat and

1:43

breath into sync and

1:45

e them into sync with other

1:47

bodies around us. This

1:50

science is a wildly accessible

1:53

minute to minute invitation to

1:55

practice a common human experience

1:58

that is literally life giving. And

2:00

nourishing and actively good

2:03

for this world of pain and

2:05

promise that we inhabit. I'm

2:08

Tippett, and this is on being.

2:16

I've been in a conversation of friendship

2:18

and shared curiosity with Dacher Keltner

2:21

for years, and I'm so happy

2:23

to bring this conversation to you as he

2:25

has now translated his studies

2:27

into a book. A,

2:29

the new of everyday wonder,

2:31

and how it can transform your life.

2:38

So, you

2:38

know, I wanna start at the beginning, which

2:41

is where I like to start. And --

2:42

Okay. -- you know, it seems to me

2:45

that so much, I mean, at the beginning of you.

2:48

Right? It

2:50

seems to me that so much of your

2:53

science one way

2:55

to talk about it. There are many ways to talk about

2:57

it, but but one way to talk about it is you are

2:59

taking the stuff of what

3:01

his always been moral virtue

3:04

and you're taking it into the laboratory. So

3:07

I start to wonder just knowing a little

3:10

bit about you where

3:12

if you would trace I know that you had

3:15

a rather kind of experimental unorthodox

3:18

spiritual upbringing. So I

3:20

wonder if you look back at that and if

3:22

you if you trace the roots of this

3:24

this inquiry in

3:25

here, this curiosity, and the

3:27

way you've come at it. Oh,

3:30

yeah. You know, there

3:33

are times in a

3:35

scientific career where we we

3:38

believe we're doing, you know, work that

3:40

has some degree of objectivity where you

3:42

realize it's all subjective and personal.

3:44

You know, I was raised by literature

3:48

professor who love romanticism in

3:50

Virginia Wolf and quoted William

3:52

Blake and others in the household

3:54

and And then a visual artist,

3:57

my dad who loves, you know,

3:59

Goya and Francis Bacon and all the

4:01

horrors of their art and the awe inspiring

4:03

horrors and and I grew up in a really

4:06

kind of a radical time of the late sixties

4:08

in Laurel Canyon. And so all was

4:11

all around me And

4:13

I think that being raised by people in the humanities,

4:16

and being a little contrarian,

4:19

I guess, like, kids often

4:21

are. I always wanted proof.

4:24

Right. And I wanted to measure things and I

4:26

wanted to test things. And

4:28

so it's very fitting that you

4:30

know, at this stage of my life, I would

4:32

turn to science to figure

4:34

out a ah. Mhmm. So,

4:36

yeah, it and

4:38

and to find in that science and

4:40

the limits of the science sort

4:43

of the what lies beyond it, which is

4:45

the metaphysical or the spiritual

4:48

And so studying all really brought

4:50

me into contact with

4:52

spirituality

4:52

too. Howard Bauchner: And

4:54

then it's so interesting to me that

4:57

you you really wandered into a

5:00

new science as it's emerging.

5:02

Right? Like,

5:03

I mean, I've had this conversation with other neuroscientists

5:05

as well. And it's really easy I think

5:07

for people now to forget that

5:10

this particular form of science

5:12

has just been around for a few decades and you

5:14

were right there at the beginning and --

5:15

Yeah. -- you

5:16

walked into this new science of emotions --

5:18

Yeah. -- which which science

5:21

had

5:21

very, very strictly

5:24

avoided.

5:24

Yeah. And it was really new for you

5:27

to be taking things like laughter and gratitude

5:30

and love and desire and compassion

5:32

into study.

5:33

You know, it was astonishing to

5:36

me. I was in

5:38

graduate school in the mid to late eighties

5:40

at Stanford and and, you know,

5:42

it was the heyday of what's called the cognitive

5:44

revolution and the metaphor was

5:46

that the human mind is like

5:48

a computer with software and hardware

5:51

and cranking out these algorithms

5:53

and computations and that's consciousness.

5:55

Right? Mhmm. And, you know, and

5:57

some of the most famous people in the field

6:00

just felt like emotions couldn't be

6:02

studied it was inappropriate to

6:04

study them. They

6:06

were intractable in terms of measurement

6:09

and conceptualization or how we would even

6:11

measure them. And I just felt

6:13

my past at that

6:14

time, you know, of of being

6:17

raised by these wonderfully emotional

6:20

parents. Wow. You know, who

6:23

are like but what about poetry and what

6:25

about paintings and what about the feelings

6:27

you have and What would human

6:29

life be like without crying and laughter?

6:32

Mhmm. So it was it

6:34

was astonishing to just

6:36

hear the brightest minds say there's

6:38

there's no place for human emotion in

6:41

prejudice, in racism

6:43

-- Mhmm. -- in morality, literally,

6:46

you know, carrying on Western European

6:48

traditions in many ways. And but what

6:50

a great opportunity to fall into

6:53

as a young scholar?

6:54

Yeah. So now you have written

6:56

this wonderful book. The

6:59

first lines, I have taught happiness to

7:01

hundreds of thousands of

7:02

people around the world. It is not

7:04

obvious why I ended up doing

7:06

this work. I have been a pretty wound

7:08

up anxious person for significant

7:10

chunks of my life. And

7:12

was thrown out of my first meditation

7:15

class. Which

7:18

is

7:18

true. So thank you for that full disclosure.

7:21

Yeah. I have to say, my friend and I in

7:24

college went to this meditation class and they had

7:26

us chanting. I am a being

7:28

of purple

7:28

fire. Yep.

7:28

Which is a reason to laugh. I give you Yeah. And

7:31

I'm like, I'm not a being a purple fire.

7:33

I'm an adolescent who wants, you know, to

7:35

meet interesting

7:36

people. And

7:36

and so, yep, we got tossed out of that class.

7:39

So

7:40

But I mean, yeah. And you

7:43

I've been following your work off

7:45

and on for for many years, and this

7:47

really has deepened and deepened and deepened to

7:49

this this study of awe.

7:51

And you say, you know, now after twenty

7:53

years, you have the answer to the perennial

7:55

question, how to live a good life, and the answer

7:57

is to find

8:00

And so tell me, is this

8:02

right? You've done these massive

8:04

studies. Right?

8:05

Yeah. I don't know. Somewhere I've got twenty hundred

8:07

narratives, twenty languages. Yeah.

8:10

And were you surprised

8:13

I kind of was to read

8:15

that what most commonly led people

8:17

around the world to feel awe

8:19

was an experience of other

8:21

people's courage, kindness, strength

8:24

or overcoming? Yeah.

8:26

You know, the first surprise

8:29

was it's other

8:31

people around us, everyday people

8:33

who bring us awe.

8:35

Mhmm. Moral and what we call moral

8:36

beauty. Yeah.

8:37

And I

8:37

love that language.moral beauty. Yeah.

8:40

Kindness. Courage,

8:43

overcoming obstacles, you know,

8:45

saving people's lives just

8:47

time and time again, you

8:49

know, the the most common source of awe

8:52

is other people. And and you wouldn't think

8:54

that given what we look at on Twitter

8:56

or Instagram, but but it's

8:58

a deep a deep tendency to

9:01

choke up and get tears, thinking

9:03

about what people can

9:04

do. And so you

9:06

kind of named and

9:08

this is how the the book is structured around

9:10

eight wonders of life. And

9:13

I I mean, I'm assuming I hear that as

9:15

of, like, interior analogs or

9:17

what we call wonders of the

9:18

world. Is that Right.

9:21

Like I think we need new wonders of

9:23

the world.

9:23

Right. You look at those and

9:25

those are all power based. Yeah. And

9:27

those are monuments. Right? And yeah.

9:29

Well, Yeah. Go on. Go

9:31

on.

9:31

Well, you know, this is saying,

9:34

you know, that's, like,

9:34

a hierarchical conceptualization of

9:37

one or, like, what did the

9:39

guy in charge in the Egyptian

9:41

period

9:41

do? Make

9:42

thousands of people do. Or Trump

9:44

Tower or whatever, you know,

9:46

But yeah, you know, and that was

9:49

this big surprise in this

9:51

research is how

9:53

ordinary can be.

9:55

It's everywhere. Right? So it's

9:57

the flowers blooming

9:59

and, you know, the moral beauty

10:01

of people and some pattern of light on

10:03

the

10:03

sidewalk. So, we call them eight

10:06

wonders of everyday life. Yeah.

10:08

So what I what I would like to

10:10

do is -- Yeah. -- obviously, we

10:12

can't walk through it all, but I I just

10:14

kind of went through myself and pulled out some threads

10:16

that he was intrigued and illuminate and,

10:18

you know, turns a phrase that

10:20

for me put something into a new

10:22

line. So I just like to walk through

10:24

it that

10:24

way. And, yeah, and first of all,

10:27

there is this

10:28

what you call the first wonder of life,

10:30

moral beauty. Yeah. And

10:32

there's also there's this in

10:34

terms of this moral beauty of

10:36

of art at the kindness and strength

10:38

and courage and overcoming of others,

10:40

you use this phrase, allowing

10:43

goodness its own speech.

10:46

So what is that?

10:48

What does that mean to you? Or

10:50

how did that come out of the research?

10:53

Well, you know, it comes allowing

10:55

goodness its own speech comes

10:58

out of a a graduation

11:00

speech by Tony Morrison, the

11:02

great writer, who said, you

11:04

know, this is what she sees to be

11:06

the purpose of her creative

11:08

life and literature and the like.

11:11

And, Christa, I mean, obviously,

11:13

we live in these times where, you

11:15

know, you you arrive at a really

11:17

cynical view of human beings.

11:19

Yeah. And that cynical view I

11:21

might add has prevailed in a lot of the

11:23

social sciences and it's been refuted

11:25

that people actually share

11:27

instinctively we cooperate

11:29

we we

11:31

have neurophysiological systems that help

11:33

us care for a lot of people.

11:36

It's as Darwin said, you

11:38

know, sympathy is our strongest

11:40

instinct. Yeah. And what

11:42

what struck me about the

11:44

ease with which people around the world

11:47

would like, hey, what's awe inspiring? They didn't

11:49

mention a God or the

11:51

Grand Canyon. They mentioned ordinary people

11:53

doing amazing things. And so

11:55

I felt like that

11:58

scientific act was allowing goodness

12:00

its own

12:00

speech. And this just

12:01

surfaces in how people think about

12:03

the transcendent. And

12:05

I hope, you know, I I

12:07

just I think we need more of

12:09

that. You know, we need more stories

12:13

around goodness. And

12:15

this human capacity. So

12:18

for me, you

12:20

know, like I said, I can get

12:22

really

12:23

tense and anxious. I can be a little

12:25

missentropic. I hate to say it.

12:28

You

12:28

know? I wasn't the the

12:31

kindest little kid. And

12:33

this science was like, wow, there

12:35

is a lot of goodness

12:37

out there -- Mhmm. -- that we need to

12:39

allow its its

12:40

articulation. Mhmm.

12:43

So the second one is

12:45

collective effervescent. And

12:47

--

12:47

Yeah. -- what wonderful language

12:52

for what you're describing is

12:54

again so ordinary

12:56

and built into all kinds of

12:58

life. Oh my god. Yeah.

13:01

Collective effervescent, Emile Dersheim,

13:03

the great French sociologist, just

13:06

moving together feeling

13:08

exaltant, bubbling, being

13:10

ecstatic is just this deep

13:12

tendency. Young people feel

13:14

it all the time. You know, they dance

13:16

and they they go to

13:18

political rallies and sporting

13:20

events or old, you know, but it's

13:22

everywhere. You know, once I started to think

13:24

about this, I I love

13:26

walking in Berkeley. And Berkeley

13:28

is this buzzing high

13:30

energy place, and you would

13:32

see these patterns of collective effervescent

13:34

that that the science is starting to capture,

13:37

you know, people walking to

13:39

work, little kids going to a dance

13:41

class, you know, people at a picnic,

13:43

people lining up to get onto a bus. We just

13:45

have this this tendency

13:47

to start to move together. Right.

13:50

And it brings us a lot of

13:53

sense of unity and a sense of

13:55

on and if you really push

13:57

it in the right context, bliss

14:00

and a sense of, like, Wow.

14:02

Look at what I'm part of. You know, I'm part of

14:04

this this this collective.

14:06

What a striking tendency

14:09

we have And I as I started

14:11

to dig into this concept, I love

14:13

touring character guards quote, you know, this

14:15

grouchy philosopher writing about dread.

14:17

He'd go out and walk and he would say,

14:19

it puts me into contact with

14:21

the significance of insignificant things.

14:24

You know? And that's how I felt like

14:27

Man watching kids line

14:29

up to go play

14:31

is awesome or marching to

14:33

their preschool in their incredible

14:35

ways. Well, yeah, and you hope this phrase

14:37

also moving that somehow what becomes

14:39

collective effervesence has just moving

14:41

the way our bodies were meant

14:43

to move. Which is so interesting to

14:45

think about. But everything

14:47

you're talking about though, we do so

14:50

unconscious of the fact that this

14:52

is primal

14:54

and life giving -- Right. -- which is what

14:56

you're saying. What the science

14:58

is saying. Yeah. You

15:00

know, I I mean, almost

15:02

all cultures have deep histories

15:04

and traditions of

15:05

dance, you

15:06

know. Yeah. I was just in the Himalayas

15:08

in Bhutan for this project,

15:10

and the layup

15:12

people dance all the

15:13

time. You know, they they have a

15:16

government ceremony, and then

15:18

they dance. You know, and that is

15:20

very that's very

15:21

human to move in

15:24

unison like that. And it's as you said,

15:26

Krista, it's life giving. And,

15:28

you know, I hate juxtaposing with

15:30

our screen based,

15:32

chair based life, but

15:34

we've lost

15:34

that. And but I see young

15:37

people moving back to it of board

15:39

games and dance clubs

15:41

and so I I have hope

15:43

we can return to it.

16:08

I mean, you also use this use it all as

16:11

an emotion. Of the

16:13

superorganism. And I've heard you talk about

16:15

this in a few context, and I want you

16:17

to talk about the superorganism. Because,

16:19

I guess, is collective effervescent also

16:21

an expression of this when this

16:22

happens, when we're together and these

16:25

gatherings having these experiences.

16:27

Yeah. And this is where the science is really

16:30

cool, which is that you know, you

16:32

can get people and they start

16:34

moving in unison, like, you know, in

16:36

experiments, you have them walk in unison or

16:38

move their do some gestures in

16:40

unison. And they're like, okay,

16:42

this is kind of artificial. It doesn't

16:44

have the power of dance or a political

16:46

rally. But then, their

16:49

their brains start showing similar

16:51

patterns of activation throughout the eighty

16:53

billion neurons that are their brains and

16:55

their physiology's their cortisol

16:58

and their their hormones start linking

17:00

up. And the next thing you know, it's like,

17:02

what were kind of this a shared

17:04

mental state? And And you can

17:06

measure

17:06

that,

17:06

right, with your science now. Yeah.

17:08

Definitely. You can measure that we

17:10

literally physiologically sync up in all

17:13

kinds of Oh, yeah. Honey it

17:15

weighs. Yeah. I mean, you know, one study had

17:17

people listen to music together and

17:19

their brain started to

17:21

synchronize people in the the

17:23

music venue in a similar

17:25

pattern of activation. So they're

17:27

literally their their

17:29

neurophysiological mental state is similar.

17:31

We did a study of

17:33

really poor kids and veterans

17:35

rafting, and we measure the

17:37

hormone cortisol, which is a

17:39

stress hormone, At the start of the

17:40

day, their hormone levels were all different. There

17:43

separate individuals. Yeah. By

17:44

the end of the day, after having rafted

17:47

with the little collection of people,

17:49

their hormone levels are the same.

17:51

Lots of data on that. And and that's

17:54

striking that these processes

17:56

of collective eff eff effecence, you're doing

17:58

rituals in a church. Right? You're

18:00

chanting at a game, you

18:02

are greeting people in a

18:05

ceremony, they sync us up

18:07

physiologically, which enables

18:09

lots of

18:09

good things. Yeah.

18:10

Oh, gosh. It's so fascinating. Yeah.

18:12

And then,

18:13

of course, nature, which is

18:15

maybe what I would have expected to

18:17

be the first from twenty six hundred

18:20

narratives, I might have thought that the most

18:22

stories would be about all

18:24

at the natural world. And of

18:26

course, it's in here and it's important.

18:28

And some of the things you're describing happen outside.

18:31

But I wanna hear more

18:33

about the

18:33

neurophysiology, what you call the

18:36

neurophysiology of wild aw.

18:38

Which

18:39

I guess

18:39

is always that awe that happens outdoors

18:42

in the wild. Yeah.

18:44

It is a universal.

18:46

It it might be

18:48

mushrooms in Russia or the

18:50

desert landscape in part of

18:52

the, you know, the Middle East

18:55

the ocean for surfers,

18:58

but nature is

19:00

directly evocative, but

19:02

not as much as other people, which

19:04

surprised us. And the neurophysiology

19:06

is amazing. It is

19:08

truly amazing. And

19:10

it gets back to this old

19:12

indigenous idea of we

19:14

are part of an

19:15

ecosystem. Our bodies are part of them. So --

19:17

Right. --

19:18

you know, there's a review of how nature

19:21

benefits us and there are twenty

19:23

one pathways by which that's

19:25

true including ah. But what really

19:27

struck me is the neurophysiology, which

19:29

is, you know, sound waves

19:31

coming off of streams and

19:33

moving bodies of water, activate

19:35

the vagus nerve. They calm us down.

19:38

There are chemical compounds in

19:41

nature. You might smell on a

19:43

flower or tree bark

19:45

or the resin on a tree. That

19:47

activate parts of the brain and the

19:49

immune system. Right? So our bodies

19:51

are wired to

19:54

respond in an open

19:56

empowering, strengthening way to nature. That

19:58

works largely done in Japan and South

20:00

Korea. Interesting.

20:01

And I think one of the broader

20:04

lessons that awe provides for us is, you

20:06

know, these ideas of separate self,

20:08

like, oh, I'm different from other people, which

20:10

is true. But also synced up with other people.

20:12

I'm different from nature. That's true,

20:14

but we're also part of an ecosystem.

20:17

And I'm always persuaded by certain

20:19

kinds of physiological data which

20:21

say, like, man, you got cells in

20:23

your skin that are tracking

20:26

chemicals in in nature that

20:29

benefit

20:29

you. So it's striking to me

20:31

the uses and meaning of

20:33

that science. Howard Bauchner:

20:35

And you mentioned the vagus nerve, which

20:37

is our favorite nerve here it on being.

20:41

And

20:41

I I know that makes me tear

20:43

up. I have to say

20:44

it. Yeah. I think it's

20:47

one of maybe your favorite favorite nerve --

20:48

Oh, dear

20:49

god. -- so I have a question for you. Yeah.

20:51

So you call it interestingly,

20:53

the caretaking nerve. Obviously, I think translate

20:56

the wandering

20:57

nerve. I

20:58

don't know if

20:58

you know ResMedica who's worked with

21:01

racialized trauma in the body. He calls

21:03

it the soul nerve. And is

21:05

this also so so I feel

21:07

like the vagus nerve is this great

21:09

frontier that's stepping plan

21:11

a lot. And yet, is this

21:13

also new science? Like, was I feel

21:15

like it's everywhere now, but was the

21:17

Vegas nerve not seen before or was it

21:19

just not taken seriously.

21:21

What a terrific question, Krista.

21:24

And and I love the phrase,

21:26

soul nerve. I'll use that going

21:27

forward. Okay. I think we should

21:30

use the word soul more often. Mhmm. I

21:31

know you do, but but

21:33

we narrow minded scientist

21:35

should too. You know,

21:38

Yeah. It it's so striking

21:40

to reflect on how

21:42

cultural biases shape science and

21:44

then our claims about human nature.

21:47

You know, for sixty, seventy

21:49

years, we've been studying fight or flight physiology.

21:51

Oh, we're wired to

21:53

fight or flee in life.

21:55

You know, and that was that was a a sense of

21:58

what physiology was, was, you

22:00

know, it's really about self

22:02

preservation and we made progress in

22:04

understanding cortisol and the

22:05

amygdala, the threat related region of

22:08

the brain and blood

22:09

pressure. There was this view of human nature

22:11

that really penetrated the

22:14

western society. Right? Totally. Yeah.

22:15

Yeah. So as you're saying, so we pride

22:17

that lens to our bodies. We

22:19

did. And and with profound

22:24

myopia, and one of them being,

22:26

well, your body has the vagus

22:28

nerve. And, you know,

22:30

we call it the autonomic nervous system. There are all

22:32

these bundles of nerves coming out of your spinal

22:34

cord that affect blood

22:36

flow and digestion and

22:38

muscle contractions and glucose and

22:40

so forth. And the vagus

22:42

nerve is part of that system. It's it's

22:44

a mammalian bundle of

22:46

nerves. It stretches from

22:48

the top of your spinal cord.

22:50

It wanders through your heart and lungs and

22:52

digestive organs. And remarkably, Krista gets

22:54

into your gut. Yeah. And receives

22:56

all this information from the microbiome, it

22:59

is the mind body nexus, and

23:01

we just hadn't studied it. And it was

23:03

really Steve Porges, who,

23:06

you know, is this this

23:08

scholar in the eighties who was saying,

23:10

hey, we've got this love organ

23:12

in the

23:13

body. And people like, well,

23:14

I know. Well, Oregon. Well, I know. There's a

23:16

lot of misquoting

23:17

here. My

23:18

apologies. Yeah.

23:19

But but or this caretaking nerves,

23:21

he called it social

23:22

engagement. Uh-huh. And and then, you

23:25

know, our lab started to get

23:27

into the act that when you

23:29

feel compassion the

23:31

vagus nerve is activated because it slows

23:33

your heart rate. It opens you up

23:35

to other people. It allows you to

23:37

vocalize. It allows you to look at people in

23:39

the eyes. When we meditate, the

23:41

vagus nerve is activated, not the kind of

23:43

meditation I got thrown out

23:43

for, but,

23:44

you know -- Yeah. -- and then

23:46

you know, all activates the

23:49

vagus nerve because it orients you to be

23:51

open to the world

23:53

and to other people. And

23:55

I you know, to me

23:57

what that says is

24:01

this this capacity for

24:03

wonder and beauty and sympathy

24:05

and kindness. When I used to

24:07

teach it without the neurophysiology,

24:10

skeptics would be like, oh, there's

24:12

the Berkeley guy who's sitting in a hot tub

24:15

having had a bong hit. And, you know

24:17

-- Right. -- and here he goes again.

24:19

No. This is in our jeans. It's

24:21

in our It's in our

24:22

neurophysiology, very robustly so.

24:25

It's something

24:26

that's fascinated me ever

24:29

since I

24:30

started visualizing this vagus

24:32

nerve is I I also realize

24:34

as much as as you say it's true that

24:36

culturally we just didn't

24:38

we didn't see this because we weren't looking for these

24:41

capacities in ourselves. Yeah.

24:43

And yet there

24:46

are ways in which in

24:48

words we use and phrases we use,

24:50

it's like we had this knowledge and

24:52

it was and that we and we carried it

24:54

around and now we're learning what it means. So

24:56

One thing that's occurred to me really says, if you think

24:59

about, right, the vagus nerve regi cell, it goes

25:01

to your

25:01

amygdala, throughout your heart, your

25:03

gut. And

25:04

what are we when we use this phrase, I feel

25:07

nervous.

25:07

Right? What what are we

25:10

describing? You feel a little bit afraid, your throat

25:12

closes up, your heart is pounding,

25:14

your stomach is

25:15

churning. Right? So all of

25:17

that somehow we thin this,

25:19

but I feel like what your science is doing is

25:22

helping us activate

25:25

it,

25:25

again, towards what is life giving,

25:28

towards nurturing these capacities

25:30

in

25:30

ourselves. Yeah. There's no

25:33

doubt. You know, cultures

25:35

have really rich conceptual systems

25:37

that that track the body

25:39

you know, and that these bodily reverberations

25:42

to use William James' language.

25:44

And, you know, chakra systems

25:46

Right? Mhmm. There's this heart chakra. That's

25:49

the vagus nerve. And -- Right. -- when you

25:51

go to you see images

25:53

of of, you know,

25:56

Buddhism and and Transcendent

25:57

States, and it has all this vibration around

25:59

the head or heart. So

26:01

clearly, we knew this

26:03

But what the science gives us is

26:05

it says, hey, here is the system.

26:07

Oh, by the way, it helps your

26:09

immune system and your digestion.

26:13

And your heart rate and your

26:15

cardiovascular profile, and

26:17

guess what medical doctors will

26:19

listen. Right? Mhmm. And they

26:22

will prescribe nature

26:24

or a new yoga class

26:26

or a meditation practice

26:28

increasingly or gratitude exercise or

26:30

or listening to your show, you know, as a

26:33

way to activate these

26:35

regions of the the body because they're good for

26:37

you. Mhmm. So, yeah, I

26:39

always have had an eye on utility.

26:42

You know, my mom was

26:44

a social activist or is and

26:46

it's like, well, knowledge

26:48

needs to especially now help

26:49

people, you know. And and the vagus

26:52

nerve has had that affect the science

26:54

of it.

27:12

Support for on-being with Krista Tippett comes

27:14

from the Pfizer Institute. Pfizer

27:16

supports a movement of organizations that

27:18

are applying spiritual solutions

27:20

to society's toughest problems. Learn

27:23

more at pedser dot org.

27:40

And of course, spiritual and

27:43

religious art is, of course, in

27:45

here. It's part of it. And don't know.

27:47

It's number six in the

27:49

it's number six in the list. But

27:51

Reg number six. Reg number six is released.

27:53

But but, you know, that kind of, like, it

27:55

seems to be like music as well as

27:58

this one, spiritual homogeneous thought.

28:00

They also show up in all these

28:02

other places. Right? Yeah. They

28:04

show up in moral beauty and in

28:06

collective effervescent. And

28:09

So but I I think another thing

28:12

you've said about raw here is

28:14

that raw also gives you

28:17

gives us give science and and gives us

28:19

collectively a new way in to

28:21

talk about meaning and --

28:22

Yeah. -- a compass for

28:25

what matters. Yeah.

28:28

Wow. A compass for what matters.

28:30

I just had a little goose bump reaction

28:32

there. So, you

28:34

know, It's been so interesting, Chris, to, you know, forgive me

28:36

for saying this and you your show has

28:38

gotten people to think about

28:40

spirit. And

28:42

soul and

28:45

sacred. All these

28:48

concepts that are very intuitive that

28:50

the world has used for so long that we're right

28:52

at the front and center. I love Walt

28:55

Whitman, you know, saying, if the

28:57

soul is not in the body, where

28:59

is the soul? Mhmm. And I think he was about

29:01

the vagus nerve. And, you know,

29:04

seriously. Yeah. You know, but I

29:06

live in a world of science

29:08

where we really really

29:10

did not study spirit or

29:12

soul or religion. We've really

29:14

get awkward talking about it. We

29:16

we avoid it. And yet it is

29:18

a deep human universal. And what I

29:21

love about awe and

29:23

when I teach awe to

29:25

different groups like I

29:27

teach a lot of medical doctors who are

29:29

watching people

29:29

die, and

29:32

they wanna talk about spirit.

29:34

And they are very interested.

29:37

And the whole context of that

29:39

moment is awe and wonder

29:41

and

29:41

mystery. And what's been

29:44

striking to me in studying or and

29:46

then teaching or having

29:48

conversations around

29:49

or with judges and doctors

29:51

and, you know, academicians

29:53

and school teachers is it gets them

29:55

to spirit and the sacred and

29:58

they say, wow, you know, I hit know, I felt

30:00

all backpacking with my

30:02

daughter, and that's really what is

30:04

spirituality for me. Mhmm. And

30:06

that's actually true of forty one percent of Americans, you know,

30:08

that they find God or divine

30:10

in nature, like Ralph Auto Emerson

30:13

did. And awe

30:15

allows us to have that conversation. And

30:17

then somebody who says, well, that's

30:19

interesting. I find it

30:21

in, you know, going to church and

30:23

it has this feeling state, this quality that

30:25

you can start having a

30:27

more pluralistic conversation around, like

30:30

William James was interested in,

30:32

And I, you know, Krista, I'm

30:34

not a religious person. One of

30:36

the other great family stories is

30:38

we went to a

30:40

largely Jewish school when I growing up in

30:43

Laurel Canyon, or a lot of Jews were in the school,

30:45

and and they when

30:47

Hanukkah arrived, they all got to go home and my

30:49

brother was, like, asked his first great

30:51

teacher, like, Why are all these kids gone? And

30:53

the teacher said, well, you you know, they

30:55

have a certain religious faith and you believe in

30:57

Jesus and my brother went home like,

30:59

hey, mom, who's this Jesus

31:00

value? Okay. That's the

31:03

kind of story we expect to hear from Berkeley.

31:05

Right? No. I know where I grew up in the

31:07

middle of the

31:08

country. But

31:08

but anyway, I'm rambling. But, you know, it

31:10

it allows us to have a conversation

31:12

about spirit -- Yeah. -- is

31:14

is all. You know, I I think also a

31:16

place this takes my mind is

31:19

to just like we were saying that there's

31:21

intelligence embedded in our language and

31:23

cultures --

31:23

Yeah. -- that science catches up with.

31:25

Yeah. You

31:25

know, if you think about the intelligence of

31:28

religious traditions and practices at

31:30

their best. Right? So many

31:32

of the things that you've named, these wonders of

31:34

life, they are all embedded. Right? Right,

31:36

Dacher, and chant, and visual design,

31:38

sacred geometry, liturgy, service

31:40

to others. Right? Yeah. All of these

31:42

things that it's now possible to study

31:44

-- Yeah. -- make us

31:47

more complete, more whole lead

31:49

towards flourishing, have

31:51

been kind of innovated in these

31:53

spaces. Well

31:54

Take it seriously on these spaces, maybe.

31:56

Oh, yeah. And and, you know, that's

31:58

one view as a social

32:00

scientific view of religious

32:03

practice is it

32:05

brings together all of these deeply

32:07

human tendencies of

32:08

all, right, of rituals and

32:11

reverence and forms of

32:13

deference and visual

32:14

iconography. Yeah. Yeah. Branded

32:17

True.

32:17

Yeah. Crazy. And music and

32:19

singing. And by the way, you know, as

32:22

a non religious person,

32:24

one of the things that science taught

32:26

me is go find that, you

32:28

know. Mhmm. And you'll piece it together

32:31

in interesting ways. And

32:33

I think that's it's what we're doing

32:36

anyway. It's so intelligent in our

32:38

culture. And for those

32:40

people like me who are a little bit more

32:42

data driven, this science points

32:44

us in that direction. Yeah.

32:45

And I also wanna

32:47

talk about a very tender part

32:50

of this Dory You Tell and

32:52

part of your life experience that

32:54

does come into your writing about this,

32:56

which is the the illness and

32:58

death of your brother. Rolf m.

33:02

And, you know,

33:04

I wonder so experiences of

33:06

life and death are also part of

33:08

this array of where human beings experience

33:10

awe. And it seems like you

33:13

you had that experience very directly.

33:15

Mhmm. I

33:15

wonder if you would Talk to me about, you

33:18

know, what that experience in the

33:20

middle of being somebody studying this

33:22

thing. Yeah. I

33:24

how I have the feeling when I read

33:26

what you write about it that it

33:28

actually that you learned things that

33:30

you hadn't known

33:31

before, that it took you that

33:34

much deeper. In some way?

33:36

Yeah. You know, I you

33:43

know, I was doing this law of

33:45

science for ten years.

33:47

You know, I'm very proud of

33:48

it. I think It's been generating

33:51

a lot of interesting conversations.

33:53

And then, you know, my

33:55

younger brother, Rolf, got sick

33:57

with colon cancer, and passed

34:00

away. And Rolf and

34:02

I, as we've spoken, all

34:04

those wild times I had in Laurel

34:06

Canyon and

34:06

beyond, and the kind of

34:09

the experiment that was my family, a wonderful experiment,

34:11

were knit side by side with my brother, Rolf,

34:14

he was only fourteen months younger

34:16

than me, we did

34:18

everything together from

34:20

playing little league to wandering

34:23

foothills to wild

34:26

trips dancing, etcetera, best men at each other's weddings.

34:30

And he, you know, there's I

34:31

mean, there's nothing like a great

34:34

sibling relationship. He

34:37

and

34:37

I made sense of our lives

34:40

together and looked at

34:42

the world

34:44

together and and found

34:45

altogether. And then, you know, when

34:46

I was watching him, you

34:49

know, colon cancer is

34:51

horrible and it's

34:52

horror. And watching

34:54

him die knocked me

34:57

into an all this

34:59

state where like some Americans

35:01

feel where I was like

35:03

trying to make sense of death and watching

35:06

a a really strong human being's

35:08

body just get wiped out

35:10

and deteriorate. And that was

35:12

my brother's body that looked like my body

35:14

and, you know, and it it

35:16

I've never felt like I did. And

35:18

it was like Joan Didion, you know, like,

35:21

this madness of

35:24

grief of, you know, just

35:26

hallucinating, and I was barely

35:28

sleeping, and And then I also had the mystery that a

35:30

lot of people have in our research

35:32

as we found

35:33

of, like, the Nike past,

35:36

I was full of wonder. I was like, what is life? You

35:39

know? Why do people we

35:41

love vanish? Do

35:44

they vanish? Because he

35:46

sure felt like he was around me and he still

35:48

does. And to your

35:50

point or question, Krista,

35:52

I I was all

35:54

this and probably clearly

35:57

anxious and depressed after the

35:58

grief, like a lot of people or in

36:00

the grief as after the loss as a

36:03

lot of people are. And

36:04

and I I used

36:05

the science. I

36:06

was like, man, I gotta go find awe. You know?

36:08

You wrote that I went in search of awe,

36:10

which is kind of a stunning because

36:14

you were already in search of

36:15

awe, but it feels like I don't know.

36:17

Did you kind of make it a practice

36:19

-- I did. -- in

36:20

a way

36:21

that you hadn't before. I I really

36:23

did, you know. I mean, one of the things and I've done a little bit of work

36:25

on grief and anyone will intuit this

36:28

that when you

36:30

lose people, they

36:32

have you have the certain relationality with them and you lose that,

36:34

you know. And my brother and I

36:36

were all seekers together. Mhmm. And we

36:39

went backpacking and you know, to

36:42

Mexico and to concerts, and and

36:44

there it went. And I

36:46

was like, man, I don't know how to find

36:48

the all I need. And I made it a

36:50

practice. I went to and it's

36:52

interesting for people to think about

36:54

this

36:54

like, you know, I did more awl walks

36:56

ordinarily, I went to mountain. Yes. They went to all walks, or

36:58

that's

36:59

something

36:59

you've Yeah. It's a

37:01

it's a thing.

37:04

So I you know, for me, the all practice

37:06

in in the grief was

37:08

I All walks are simply we've

37:10

tested this scientifically. Like, go out and

37:12

do a walk and look for things that

37:14

amaze you and big

37:16

and small and and it and you

37:18

can do that. I, you

37:20

know, I gathered up a lot of

37:22

sacred texts to stay close to. I went

37:24

to allspots. I just I

37:26

I don't know much about music

37:30

but I really intentionally went into music

37:32

to like find what is awe

37:34

inspiring about it. Mhmm. So I

37:37

made it a practice in life,

37:39

like a lot of people do, you know, like you've said, like religion

37:41

or spirituality, and it

37:43

changed my life.

37:46

You

37:47

know, I have to say to you that I

37:48

had a bit of an epiphany here, which is

37:52

number eight.

37:54

Number eight. Eighth wonder of life. Yeah. Here's

37:57

the epiphany that I had. Kind of in

37:59

the middle of getting ready to talk to

38:01

you and immersing

38:04

in what you've written and what you

38:05

know. I I don't know. I

38:06

think this is a very hard time in the life of

38:08

the world. Right? Like I agree. I

38:12

I am aware in myself. I'm also wearing a lot

38:14

of other people. You know, I I gotta go

38:16

in and out of feeling

38:19

okay and

38:20

not. And and it we're we're really not okay. Right?

38:22

Like, we're not okay. And the world

38:24

is not okay. And I don't think we've even begun

38:27

to process all the things

38:29

we've been through everything that we

38:31

are called to. So anyway, so but

38:33

I started to realize

38:36

it. The way

38:38

I have trained myself, and I feel like there's a lot of

38:40

available training and teaching

38:42

right now culturally. And you're you're in

38:44

this too

38:44

about, like, how to calm yourself. Right?

38:48

Yeah.

38:48

So, like, I know about breathing and

38:50

I

38:51

have my little my little

38:52

embarrassingly little meditation practice,

38:54

you know, I pray, I

38:57

but I listen to music, like, and I actually

38:59

know some of the science. Right? I mean, I think

39:01

about what it's doing in my body. But

39:03

I realized when I was reading you that

39:05

all of that is kind of it's

39:07

remedial. Right? It's like just getting

39:10

And I

39:10

think, you

39:11

know, we also know I've been reading and

39:13

hearing, but there's there's research

39:15

about when when people do meditation in

39:18

a remedial

39:18

way, which is how a lot of us do it. Like

39:20

-- Yeah. --

39:21

just hanging on for dear life. How

39:23

can I calm down? That you don't keep

39:25

it up as a practice. But I realized, so I realized like so much of

39:27

how I'm how I think I've learned

39:29

to get grounded when

39:31

things are hard. Is

39:34

all about, like, selling inside, getting

39:36

calm, and looking in,

39:38

but what you're talking about with

39:40

going in search of awe and making awe a

39:43

practice is another move. It's

39:45

a complimentary move. Right?

39:47

Like, it's not just looking

39:49

in. It's like looking up and out

39:52

and getting activated in a

39:54

grounding worry. Like grounding

39:56

towards flourishing and not

39:58

just holding it together.

39:59

Yeah. Yeah.

40:00

I think

40:01

you're on to

40:04

a very important

40:06

critique of the well-being literature,

40:08

you know, the science and the

40:10

practice. And and I felt this

40:13

recently teaching at the mistakes I've been making, and you've put your

40:15

finger on it, Krista, which is it is

40:18

like, oh, reduce your individual stress.

40:20

This is how we do

40:21

it. Right. Stress

40:22

reduction. Stress reduction.

40:23

Yeah. Right. And that's remedial, and we

40:25

need more. Right? And

40:28

and the science of

40:30

well-being has suddenly surfaced this

40:32

idea of meaning -- Mhmm. -- that

40:34

what we really and you've been talking about this for a

40:36

long time, we have a crisis of meaning. Mhmm.

40:38

You know? And what are the big things that I need to care

40:40

about and relate to and

40:42

orient my life toward? And awe

40:44

does that work for you? Right? Awe

40:46

is about fundamentally,

40:48

what is the individual's relation to the

40:50

the big systems of life that

40:53

we care about that move

40:55

us culturally and individually you

40:58

know, for some people, it's music, for other people,

41:00

it's a conception of the divine, for

41:02

other people, it's ecosystems. And

41:06

that's what awe gives you. And what I'm

41:09

hopeful about introducing it

41:11

at this time is

41:13

is you know, we have been in this big narrowing

41:15

of consciousness. Yeah. Like

41:18

smartphones and little apps

41:20

and, you know, it's narrow by

41:22

It's physicality. And isn't it weird because, like, in the morning, it's a revolution

41:25

of consciousness, but it's also been

41:27

incredibly narrowing, diminishing at

41:29

the same

41:30

time. Yeah.

41:31

And I don't even know if it's been a revolution. I think it's been

41:33

Or you think we thought of it that way? Yeah.

41:35

I just think it's this oh, I'm gonna

41:37

narrow into very constrained searches

41:40

on a little

41:40

device. You know, it's worth noting that no

41:43

one matches their smartphone around the world when

41:45

they think of all. I hate

41:47

to say it. Or

41:50

a Google search. So

41:53

Yeah. And so,

41:56

you know, all

41:58

tells us, like, go out

42:00

and expand your view of

42:01

things.

42:01

Mhmm. And I

42:02

do think it gives us meaning, you

42:04

know, the young people I

42:07

teach are very good at

42:09

algorithms and computations, and

42:12

they they need the

42:14

broader view So and that and and that's what it gave me hard

42:16

time in my life was

42:17

like, wow. You know,

42:19

what I

42:19

really care I have this new

42:22

sense of

42:24

the

42:24

human form and spirit that maybe my brother is

42:26

always with me in ways

42:29

I can't imagine. And it

42:32

going in search of all gave me that.

43:02

You

43:03

you've also said and I don't wanna talk about psychedelics because I could I could

43:05

talk about so much now, but,

43:08

like, you've said, like, maybe not as

43:10

this big

43:12

concentrated experience, high experience, but

43:14

that you said essentially, does this experiences

43:17

of all do the same thing in your

43:19

brain that psychedelics do? And,

43:22

I mean, you know, here's this very

43:24

conclusive statement from you. As a scientist,

43:26

there is almost nothing better to do for

43:28

the state of your mind and body than

43:31

don't get some awe. Would you talk

43:33

a little bit about the default

43:35

mode network? Because I guess what what I'm also

43:37

what I also what you've helped me understand is all

43:39

these kinds of experiences we've talked

43:41

about. Like, they are amazing in

43:44

and of themselves in terms of what

43:46

they do to us and for

43:48

us, but then they also become they

43:50

open us

43:50

Right? To that, to a conversation with

43:52

ourselves or a reflection -- Mhmm. -- in

43:54

the world about meaning, about

43:59

something larger than ourselves. And you talked about

44:01

this default mode network

44:04

that

44:05

a quiet certain impulses in us and that they

44:07

free our minds up to connect in a

44:10

bigger way. Yeah.

44:13

You know, the default mode network is

44:16

there's a lot of large

44:18

structures in

44:20

your cortex the

44:22

medial prefrontal cortex and the posterior cingulate cortex

44:24

on the side. I mean, this

44:26

is hundreds of millions or

44:29

billions of neurons either we're gonna be more precise

44:31

as the science evolves, but it it

44:34

tends to correlate with in

44:36

its activation self

44:38

focused activities. Right? Like, oh, I'm

44:41

thinking about me and my traits

44:43

and my past and my memories

44:45

and my goals. And

44:47

quite strikingly, one

44:50

of the big findings in the psychedelics literature

44:54

is psychedelics you know,

44:56

lead to the deactivation

44:58

of the default mode network. So

45:00

does meditation

45:02

and so does awe in studies in Japan

45:04

and Holland and the U. S.

45:06

And, you know, I as

45:10

I get older, Krista, you'll probably like this. Like, I

45:13

get less biologically reductionistic. Like,

45:16

so what? You know, so this

45:18

brain region deactivates what's Tippett you

45:20

about meaning, not much, you know.

45:22

But what it does tell

45:24

us is Wow. You're people use language like

45:26

ego death, psychedelics, small

45:28

self. Yeah. I lost

45:30

a sense of self awareness

45:33

in collective effervesence. And

45:36

and that's true, neurophysiologically

45:40

too. To me, What

45:42

these neurophysiological findings

45:45

highlight is, yes, psychedelics

45:47

are one of many

45:50

pathways. And fervor about

45:51

them, needs

45:52

we can't

45:52

lose sight of the fact that you

45:55

can have that experience gardening.

45:58

You can have that experience listening

46:00

to your favorite piece of music that

46:02

a lot of the world

46:03

is, quote, psychedelic just

46:06

imputed

46:06

with meaning. Yeah. And and

46:08

one of the what I'm excited about

46:10

is kind of the next presenter of

46:12

that neuroscience, which is, okay, the

46:15

self regions of the brain calm down. What

46:18

How do we make sense of this

46:20

feeling you have with

46:23

awe that you're your boundaries

46:26

are dissolving and you're part of everything

46:28

and and to use

46:30

your language, which I really

46:32

almost used in this you know,

46:34

and thinking about the purpose of ours

46:36

to recognize what's life

46:37

giving. Mhmm. You know,

46:39

because that is common thread

46:42

across the wonders of life of

46:44

awe. And and that will be really

46:46

interesting new neuroscience that's on

46:48

the

46:48

horizon. Yeah. And

46:50

as we've spoken all the way through, it's

46:52

so clear that this also has so much

46:54

relevance not just to

46:57

our individual state of being -- Mhmm. -- and

46:59

does have huge relevance to that, but

47:01

also to, you

47:02

know, our life together,

47:06

our

47:06

collective state of being and

47:10

possibility. You wrote some really

47:12

interesting

47:13

things in twenty twenty about,

47:16

you know, being in pandemic and --

47:18

Mhmm. -- you named and

47:20

I think this is important to name

47:23

It's like what's the difference between what we call a

47:25

mystery and what we call a nightmare. Right? I mean, what and,

47:27

you know, that awe and fear and awe

47:29

and horror, these things are they they

47:31

live somewhere close to each other in

47:34

us. But you quoted

47:37

the wonderful environmentalist Terry Tempest. Well, I'm saying the difference between fear and

47:39

awe is a matter of our eyes

47:42

adjusting. Mhmm. But I guess

47:43

just, yeah, talk a little bit about how

47:45

you see

47:47

the what this science and

47:50

this practice of might

47:53

have to offer

47:55

this very complicated world

47:57

we're we're living in right

47:59

now. Yeah. I would

48:02

hope that we think about a couple of

48:04

extensions of this signs of awe. One are the social

48:06

crises of our time that our

48:08

surgeon general doctor Vivek Murphy

48:10

has named

48:12

as the crisis of emotional

48:14

well-being or meaning, shared

48:17

meaning. We are, you know,

48:19

individualism, I think I'm separate,

48:21

and different from others and have no

48:23

connections has really risen

48:26

dramatically. And then you add

48:28

to that the structural

48:30

factors that gave have given rise

48:32

to loneliness -- Mhmm. --

48:34

and wanting more social contact and not being able

48:36

to find it. And and that is as

48:38

Vivek has said, a crisis of our times, a

48:41

health crisis. And awe

48:43

and where we find it

48:45

and how it changes our

48:48

minds where when we feel on the

48:50

moment, we suddenly feel like we're part of

48:52

an integrated community. We do things that

48:54

are good for the community. We build

48:56

things like public art spaces or

48:58

gardens or game

49:00

nights that bring us together

49:03

it is a

49:06

compass as to use your language of

49:08

meaning. Like,

49:08

oh, I gotta get back together with other

49:10

people. So I think ah's really

49:12

a direct pathway to addressing

49:14

these social crises of our

49:17

time. And then, you know,

49:19

the environmental crises it's

49:22

it's really clear from a lot

49:24

of different kinds of data,

49:26

from large scale naturalistic

49:28

data, going to big public

49:31

art events, finding out individually that makes

49:33

you better behaved in terms of the

49:35

environment. You eat less red

49:38

meat. You walk more or you

49:40

drive less.

49:41

Yeah. It's so amazing.

49:42

Yeah. You know,

49:43

and and I think, you know, you could come up

49:45

with an interesting explanation like

49:46

it activates this old, evolved

49:50

sense that a part of an ecosystem. I should care

49:52

for the error and

49:54

the the other beings around me.

49:56

Mhmm. And

49:58

maybe all as long as it

50:00

stays, you know, fresh,

50:02

will move us in a

50:04

different direction to deal with these crises

50:07

of loneliness which is huge and it's killing

50:09

people, not and I'm not

50:11

exaggerating. And then the sense

50:13

of how I relate

50:15

to nature and the resources that

50:18

are part of nature. Uh-huh.

50:20

And there are three

50:22

sixty million Americans who go to our

50:24

national parks. It

50:26

is the big experiment

50:28

in awe and awe practice --

50:30

Mhmm. -- in the United States. Mhmm.

50:33

And and we get a lot of benefits from that, and it

50:35

gives us a sense of common

50:35

purpose. So I hope our conversation

50:38

stirs other kinds of movements

50:40

like that. You

50:43

know, I don't wanna finish before noting that you've mentioned goosebumps a

50:45

few times. I know. I can't remember if you mentioned

50:47

tears, but chills, but

50:51

for you, these are metrics. Right?

50:53

So another fabulous phrase that I don't

50:55

wanna end without putting out here is the

50:57

emotional body. So we started out with -- Yay.

50:59

-- coding facial presence. And now I think

51:01

you're interested in the emotional body and the scholarship

51:04

of tears. So would you

51:06

talk about? all things

51:08

mean and and how important they are in

51:10

ways. Oh

51:11

my god. I

51:13

you know, I love the I

51:15

love the body.

51:18

No. But, you know you

51:20

know, I would start with both

51:24

William James And of course, this is

51:26

much older, you know. And, well, Whitman, if the soul is not in the body,

51:28

where is the soul? That's

51:30

a radical statement. Right? That

51:34

that James also pursued that the transcendent

51:36

and the sacred and the spiritual

51:38

are in our bodies. Not

51:40

a very popular idea in a

51:43

lot of Western European traditions.

51:46

And as an emotion scientist,

51:48

you see a statement like that if the

51:50

soul is not in the body, where is the soul? Okay. The soul is in the

51:52

body. My sense of deep meaning is is

51:54

in the body, then you you

51:57

start asking people as we've done and

51:59

they

51:59

say, oh, yeah, I get the goosebumps. Sure. And well, what are

52:02

the goosebumps?

52:02

Well, they're two different kinds. One

52:06

is the shutter, you know, of horror.

52:08

Uh-huh. The other is the

52:11

Tingly sensation. I've had it

52:13

a couple

52:14

times. Today, Krista -- Mhmm. -- of, you

52:15

know, rushing up your back, like,

52:18

wow. I get these

52:20

little movements, these

52:22

flashes of sensation

52:24

up up into my scalp,

52:26

which young people call ASMR

52:28

today. Well, those are

52:31

little muscles contracting around hair

52:34

follicles, that mammals, social

52:36

mammals, piloted, or they fluffed

52:38

up their fur to get close to

52:40

each other to get warmed during the cold. Mhmm. And

52:42

so that analysis is

52:44

the goosebumps and that that specific

52:46

kind tends to correlate with awe

52:49

tells us awe in mammalian

52:52

evolution is about getting close to

52:54

others to face

52:55

shared threats. And France

52:58

of all, the great primatologist

53:00

said, oh, you've got to

53:02

read Jane Goodall because she noted

53:05

that, you know, the great

53:07

apes show this early

53:10

awe of absorption and

53:12

goosebumps and they're like looking at

53:14

waterfalls. And she said

53:16

that's early awe in spirituality.

53:19

So the body tells us not only,

53:21

you know, wow our metaphors

53:24

and and and the like

53:26

are grounded in

53:28

physiology, which is interesting, but we

53:30

share this with mammals, you know, which to me

53:32

is always it's back to my love of dinosaurs

53:34

who weren't mammals, but,

53:36

you know, And then the tears, you know, Alan Fisk has

53:38

done wonderful work showing

53:40

we cheer up, which again

53:44

is part of this certain pro social

53:46

physiology of vagus nerve activation and the

53:48

like, we get

53:50

these tears particular

53:52

kinds of tears when we see

53:54

people forming community.

53:57

Right? Mhmm. And that's

53:59

amazing to me,

54:01

you know, you you see two Olympic athletes

54:03

from different countries embrace and you

54:05

cheer up. Right.

54:06

Right. Or you

54:06

see people different? Sure why. Yeah.

54:09

You know? Yeah. In

54:11

the restorative justice work I

54:13

did in

54:13

prisons, man, you know, I

54:16

would see white supremacist

54:18

prisoners embrace a person

54:20

of color, and I would just be crying.

54:22

Mhmm. You know? And and that's

54:24

the bodily response that

54:27

says, I'm observing people becoming

54:30

part of a community, which is our

54:32

our one of our defining

54:34

evolutionary accomplishments. So the body

54:36

to me is just another

54:38

language to say, hey, this isn't

54:40

just pie in the sky, you

54:42

know, rhetoric that you'd

54:44

hear on. With Chris Tippett

54:46

it.

54:46

Yeah. Or if I it's it's part

54:49

of our body.

54:51

Yeah. I I'm

54:54

gonna admit it. I got a little freaky,

54:56

little tear freaky during that last

54:59

cancer. So success, you

55:02

succeeded. I

55:04

I know we have to finish. Let me just

55:06

say Yeah. And I feel like also

55:08

I've watched some of your talks with

55:10

your students at

55:11

Berkeley, and it's just clear to me that even

55:13

bringing like, the we crave this.

55:15

Right? As you've been We

55:15

do. We

55:16

crave this as creatures, and we know

55:18

we want mystery, and we know it's real, and

55:20

we know our imaginations are

55:23

longing to date. I

55:24

feel like you really embody this ever lessons as much

55:26

as you teach us at it. I'm

55:29

so glad you're

55:31

you're here

55:31

in doing this and thank you so much.

55:34

Thank

55:34

you. Thanks for saying that.

55:54

Deckard

55:57

Keltner's new book is

56:00

The New Science of Everyday

56:02

Wonder,

56:03

and How It can transform your life. He's a

56:05

professor of

56:05

psychology at the University of California

56:08

Berkeley and founding director

56:10

of the Greater Good Science

56:11

Center, and

56:14

he hosts the science

56:18

of happiness

56:22

podcast.

56:24

The

56:24

on-being project is Chris Hegal, Lauren

56:27

Drummerhousin. Eddie Gonzales? William

56:29

Beau. Lucas Johnson.

56:32

Suzette Burley. Zach

56:33

Rose. Colin Chuck, Julie Seifel.

56:35

Gretchen Arnold. Paltry go

56:37

to him. Gautam rigation.

56:39

April AdamsON, Ashley Her,

56:42

Amy Chattelling, Romeo NEMI.

56:44

Cameron

56:45

Musai. Kayla Edwards, Juliana Lewis, and Tiffany

56:48

champion. On-being is an

56:50

independent non profit production of the

56:52

on-being project.

56:54

We are located on Dakota land. Our lovely theme

56:57

music is provided and composed

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by Zooey Keating, Our

57:01

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