0:00

Support for On Being with Christa Tippett comes

0:02

from the Fetzer Institute. Fetzer supports

0:04

a movement of organizations that are applying spiritual

0:07

solutions to society's toughest problems.

0:10

Learn more at Fetzer.org.

0:13

Fetzer.org

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Fetzer.org

0:22

Here are some experiences to which Nick

0:25

Cave gives voice and song as

0:27

exquisitely as anyone with whom I've

0:29

ever spoken. The universal

0:32

human conditions of yearning and

0:34

of loss. A spirituality

0:37

of rigor. And the transcendent

0:40

and moral dimensions of what music

0:42

is trying to say. This

0:44

Australian musician, writer and actor

0:47

first made a name in the wild world of 80s

0:49

post-punk and later with

0:52

Nick Cave

0:52

and the Bad Seeds. He also

0:55

underwent public struggles with addiction and

0:57

rehab.

1:01

I don't believe in

1:03

an interventionist God But

1:11

I know darling of

1:14

that you do But

1:22

if I did I

1:24

would kneel down and ask

1:27

Him Not

1:32

to intervene when

1:35

it came to you Or

1:37

not to

1:40

touch a hair in your head Believe

1:43

you as you are They

1:46

felt He had to direct you and

1:48

direct you into my arms

1:53

Since the accidental death of his 15-year-old

1:55

son Arthur in 2015 and a few years later the death of

1:58

his son Arthur,

1:59

eldest child, Jethro. Nick

2:02

Cave has entered yet another transfigured

2:05

era. He's co-created a gorgeous

2:07

book called Faith, Hope, and Carnage

2:10

and become a frank and eloquent interlocutor

2:13

on grief to the many who write to

2:15

him on his blog called The Red

2:17

Hand Files.

2:30

Into the lavender fields

2:34

that reach high beyond

2:36

the sky. As

2:39

a human and a songwriter, Nick

2:42

Cave is an embodiment of a life

2:44

examined and evolved.

2:47

People ask me how I changed.

2:51

I say it is a singular

2:54

road. I'm a lavender,

2:57

a stainless skin,

2:59

and a maybe skin.

3:04

Nick and I, as it turns out, crossed

3:07

orbits in the divided Berlin of the 1980s, though

3:10

we were clearly having

3:11

very different nightlife experiences.

3:14

Now, with both of us a few decades

3:16

older, he came to see me in the On

3:19

Being studio in Minneapolis, and

3:21

I am beyond thrilled to share Nick Cave's

3:24

voice in words and song with

3:26

you. I'm Krista Tippett and

3:28

this is On Being.

3:29

So a question

3:31

that I start most

3:34

of my interviews with is just

3:38

wondering

3:39

about

3:46

whether there was a religious or spiritual

3:48

background to your childhood, however

3:50

you would see that now or

3:52

define it now. Yeah, well, in

3:55

many ways, my

3:58

parents

4:00

Went to church every Sunday, but I wouldn't I

4:02

don't think they were religious and I don't

4:04

think they believed in God But it

4:06

was it was a small town essentially

4:08

and that's just what you did. I ended

4:11

up singing in the choir for a couple

4:13

of years 10 to 12 and Was

4:17

quite fascinated by that. I'm I

4:20

enjoyed listening to the stories from the Bible

4:24

You know, I was different than the other kids

4:26

who just Hey that

4:28

stuff. I actually liked Sunday school

4:31

for example, but I also

4:33

feel I had When

4:35

I look back a kind of weird

4:39

Overinterest or I was

4:41

weirdly drawn toward the figure of Christ.

4:44

I would say from a very early age I just

4:46

found the story fascinating

4:49

Way before matters of whether God

4:51

existed or anything like that. There was just something

4:53

about this story that I found Very

4:57

strange. I still do find it very strange

4:59

actually based around

5:01

the sort of tortured individual and

5:04

literally and I

5:06

just found that compelling in some way and

5:09

and I relate to it to

5:11

you know

5:13

Say some more about that.

5:14

Well, I

5:16

mean I relate

5:18

in the sense that These

5:21

days I relate to it more because there's

5:23

a sense of Especially

5:27

in the scene of Christ in the garden

5:31

Praying and a God that had sort

5:33

of withdrawn his favor. I Relate

5:37

to that. I find that a compelling

5:39

story and and Very

5:41

beautiful to I'm very

5:43

human the

5:46

sense of yearning The

5:49

sense of being sort of tethered to the earth

5:51

but reaching Beyond ourselves

5:54

in some kind of way is the story

5:56

I think of of everyone in a way.

5:58

Hmm.

5:59

That's good

5:59

say that the word yearning you just

6:02

used the word yearning and that

6:03

surfaces again and again it feels

6:06

like a really central not

6:08

just a concept or a word right but an

6:10

experience for me yeah for you in life

6:14

and in the life yeah face yeah

6:18

I don't think I'm alone there I think that

6:20

most people have that feeling and and

6:22

and a kind of lostness

6:25

I would say an incompleteness

6:29

and the need for something beyond ourselves

6:31

to make sense of things that's

6:34

how I've really felt since

6:36

my first child died and

6:42

that yearning feels to me a kind

6:44

of universal condition based

6:47

on a kind of universal

6:49

feeling of loss shall we say does

6:52

that make sense yeah

6:52

I just I it's

6:56

such a such a wonderful evocative

6:59

word and I'm you know I'm just thinking also I

7:01

feel like what the

7:03

way you talk about it is really it's

7:05

a theological notion

7:07

yeah and

7:09

yeah I feel like we could go down a rabbit hole I

7:11

mean when Augustine says our hearts are

7:14

restless right it's it's another word it's

7:16

like your

7:16

word for our hearts are restless until

7:18

they rest in a bit yeah and

7:23

yeah that's right it's it

7:26

feels to me that that loss is

7:29

our universal state as

7:31

human beings it's not I disagree

7:33

with the I mean that the

7:35

sort of the grief club and the and the club

7:38

no one wants to join I think humanity

7:42

itself is that club and that we

7:44

are all feeling these senses

7:47

of loss whether

7:49

it's directly personal it's bred

7:51

into us that sense

7:53

of yearning and that's not a failure

7:56

it's a condition to

7:59

have these

10:00

But I think that there's also,

10:03

as you say, a kind of underlying

10:05

bedrock within humanity too

10:08

of a kind of historical and

10:10

personal loss that exists. And

10:14

this to me, this

10:16

is our condition. This

10:19

is the common binding condition of

10:21

what it is to be. And

10:24

in that respect, I don't think the common

10:28

thread that runs through humanity

10:31

is greed, let's say, or

10:34

power, or these sorts of notions.

10:37

It is this binding agent

10:39

of loss. That

10:41

to me is the thing

10:44

that makes me able to look at anybody and

10:46

feel connected to them, regardless of

10:48

who they are. And I think there's

10:51

a power in that that isn't really...

10:53

Recognized. Yeah,

10:54

that's so interesting. I mean, I think

10:56

a lot about how fear and

10:59

hate and violence are two sides, right? That

11:01

behind what we see as the manifestation

11:04

of violence is fear metastasized.

11:07

And what you're saying also is

11:09

what we look at... Fear is behind

11:11

the root.

11:12

Yeah, at the root of... And

11:14

this idea that it's actually this lostness,

11:18

this sense of loss or fear of loss

11:20

that is behind

11:21

greed and

11:23

what manifests, what shows itself

11:26

as... And it's the way we deal with that. It

11:28

can be enormously creative and

11:31

create extremely beautiful things, but

11:33

it can also be the other way. We

11:36

can become resentful. We can become

11:38

completely concerned

11:40

with our own inward situation.

11:44

So it's not necessarily... Loss

11:48

is a kind of opportunity that

11:50

can go either way, I think.

11:55

Wind

12:01

caught hair and

12:03

we parked on the

12:06

beach in the cool

12:08

evening air world

12:12

Sometimes it's better not

12:14

to say anything

12:17

at all

12:25

Your body is an

12:27

anchor, never asked

12:29

to be free Just

12:32

want to stay in the

12:34

business of making

12:36

you happy Well,

12:40

I'm just waiting for

12:43

you, waiting

12:44

for you Waiting

12:49

for you, waiting

12:52

for you,

12:54

waiting for you

13:05

So at the beginning of this book there's this mind

13:07

from Isaiah A little child shall

13:10

leave them And

13:13

for you, the death of your son

13:15

Arthur Well, I want to say it this way, I

13:17

feel, I want to use also again a theological word

13:20

I feel like in his death as in his life,

13:23

he

13:24

transfigured you

13:27

Yeah, yeah, look

13:31

For

13:35

me what happened to me is that

13:37

I

13:38

just rolled along with life I

13:40

had some kids, I loved the kids

13:42

very much And life just

13:44

rolled along as it did, it didn't have

13:47

actually the dimension

13:49

that it has now And the

13:52

death of Arthur, two of my sons

13:54

have died But the

13:56

first, the one to die was

13:58

Arthur That

14:02

had an

14:04

obliterating effect on me

14:06

and Susie. Not on

14:08

our relationship, but individually.

14:12

And it just

14:14

drew us down a path of

14:16

which we had no control whatsoever. It

14:19

was not an ordered

14:23

stroll through some sort of the

14:25

stages that we're supposed to go through when

14:28

we grieve or anything. It was

14:30

an obliterating mess. It was

14:32

a mess. I could

14:34

see what happened with Susie.

14:36

It happened in front of my eyes. Your

14:39

mother's mother and your wife. Pardon? Your

14:41

wife. My wife Susie. Sorry. Yes. And

14:44

Arthur's mother. An essential

14:47

change in her condition of

14:49

what life was to her. It was an extraordinary

14:52

thing to see. It

14:54

simply happened to her. It

14:56

wasn't something that, it wasn't a matter of

14:58

strength. It was just this thing

15:00

that happened to her. And

15:03

I think the same thing happened to me.

15:05

It was an enormous defiant creative

15:09

energy that

15:11

took Susie from being

15:14

a regular

15:16

woman that lost

15:18

her child, was utterly

15:22

obliterated by that. Sort

15:24

of rise out of that within

15:26

a relatively short time. I mean it's

15:29

not that she's in any way out

15:31

of it or that there's ever been any closure.

15:34

But to this defiant

15:38

dynamic force that came out

15:40

of that. It was an extraordinary thing

15:42

to see and incredibly helpful

15:44

and inspiring to me too. And

15:47

I think that there

15:50

was a sort of zeal attached

15:53

to grief of seeing the world

15:55

in a completely different way. You

15:57

know I don't see the world in the same way as I did before.

15:59

for.

16:02

It's much more complex than I thought

16:05

and much more fragile.

16:10

And this creates a kind of a

16:13

different feeling towards people in general, I

16:16

found anyway. I hear that a lot,

16:18

a kind of that grief and empathy

16:20

are very

16:22

much connected. In the same

16:25

way as loss and love are

16:27

very much connected too. And

16:30

that the common energy

16:33

that running through life

16:35

is lost but you can translate

16:37

that into love too quite easily. They're

16:40

very much connected. And

16:42

that comes around from an

16:44

understanding of just how fragile

16:47

and vulnerable and precarious

16:50

the nature of life seems

16:52

to be. There's

16:53

something that you said in

16:55

the book, and

16:57

I think you're talking about this, but I'd

16:59

like to hear a little bit more. So grief makes

17:02

demands on us.

17:04

Yeah,

17:07

yeah, I felt,

17:10

you know,

17:11

what I'm doing now, this podcast,

17:13

this conversation, for example, is not something

17:16

that I chose to do in a sense.

17:18

I mean, where I am now with things,

17:21

it's not something

17:24

that was part of a kind of master

17:27

plan or something. Things

17:29

just changed. And I found myself

17:31

in this weird sort of situation. I was

17:33

quite happy being a musician and talking

17:37

to Rolling Stone and Mojo

17:41

about the latest record or whatever,

17:43

you know, I was quite happy doing that. And

17:46

in some way too, I think

17:48

a lot of my fans were quite happy that that's

17:50

what I was doing. You

17:53

know, and this sort of thing

17:55

that's happened,

17:57

everyone's had to deal with in some way, you

17:59

know.

18:00

I don't know, there's beautiful creative

18:04

sort of madness that goes on with

18:06

grief, where you simply don't know what you're doing. And

18:10

you think you know what you're doing at the time.

18:12

But you look back and think, what was I thinking

18:15

back then? You know, for example,

18:17

I took very

18:20

early on, I decided to do a tour,

18:22

go on tour and stand on stage and

18:25

talk about this and ask questions

18:27

and people could stand up and

18:31

people said, what are you doing?

18:33

And I said, just felt like something

18:36

I needed to do. When I look back on

18:38

it now, it was a kind of a strange

18:41

thing for me to attempt to do.

18:44

And

18:46

it was a kind of disorder about things that

18:48

allowed me to just, it

18:51

was like it didn't matter what

18:53

I did, I just went and did whatever I felt

18:56

like doing.

19:01

It's a strange thing. I don't know if that makes

19:03

any sense. Yeah,

19:04

no, it does. It does. It's,

19:06

I mean, there's mystery in this, right? And

19:10

for you, this experience of grief

19:12

and an experience of God, or

19:15

of what religion might be, are

19:17

also intertwined in that way. Do

19:20

you know this language of thin places and Celtic

19:24

spirituality? That

19:26

there are thin places and thin times where the

19:28

veil between

19:29

heaven

19:29

and earth, the temper on the eternal is worn

19:32

thin. And it feels to me like that's an image

19:34

also for what kept coming through to me and

19:36

how these dimensions of experience

19:39

of mystery, of being human came

19:41

together in you.

19:42

Yeah. You

19:46

know, I think in the book, I

19:48

called it the impossible realm or something

19:50

like that. Or it

19:54

was something that I felt very strongly. I still

19:56

feel strongly too at times that

19:58

there was a kind of positioning of

20:01

oneself that

20:03

where I

20:04

felt deeply connected

20:07

to those that had passed on.

20:10

Because it wasn't just Arthur and

20:12

then Jethro died, but also

20:15

other people. You lost your

20:17

mother. Yeah, but I lost my father earlier

20:19

on. Yes.

20:22

I still feel this

20:25

sense

20:26

of sort of otherness about

20:29

things that it's not the imagination,

20:32

and it's not dreams or the imagination. There's

20:34

just a kind of a way of being

20:36

where I feel sort of more connected

20:39

to this other side, which

20:41

is maybe that thinness you're talking

20:43

about. And certainly you become

20:46

kind of exercised or you become so

20:51

much of your time when you're grieving

20:53

is spent right up against

20:56

loss and death. And the

20:58

one that you've missed and absence and

21:01

disappearance and all of this sort of stuff. Incompleteness,

21:05

these things, you just crushed

21:08

up against this feeling. And maybe that's

21:10

the thinness of the veil. That

21:14

dimension feels just a leak

21:17

into your life in some way.

21:18

Yeah, I mean, here's something you said in the book.

21:22

Perhaps grief

21:24

can be seen as a kind of exalted

21:27

state where here's the part, the

21:29

person who is grieving is

21:31

the closest they will ever be to the fundamental

21:34

essence of things, which is a very mysterious

21:36

statement. Yeah.

21:38

And there's also the mystery that

21:41

what we're talking about exalts

21:43

some people and crushes

21:44

others, right? That's for sure.

21:47

That's for sure. Yeah,

21:51

it's a beautiful way of putting it actually. You

21:54

either sort of turn around and

21:56

look at the world and look at people in it, or you

21:59

don't.

21:59

and you just look inward and

22:02

you sort of gaze into the absence

22:04

of that person. You know, that's like

22:07

the abyss that you look into, is an

22:09

absence.

22:10

And

22:12

I understand that impulse. There's

22:16

even a kind of sort of

22:19

deification or something

22:22

of that one that is no longer

22:24

with us, that's extremely

22:26

dangerous, that

22:29

there's all these feelings of, you know, that

22:33

there's some sort of betrayal about moving on

22:35

in your life. Yeah, right, right.

22:38

You know, that there's some honor

22:40

in just sort of staying with the

22:43

person who's passed on. And

22:45

even of being, remaining faithful to

22:47

the love that you

22:47

had for them, right? Yeah, that's right.

22:51

I think you can do both. You

22:54

can move on and you

22:56

can do things.

22:59

I think you can sort of turn your attention

23:02

on to the world and in your

23:04

own small way, help

23:07

other people in that respect. Or

23:09

help the world in some respect. Whilst

23:12

remaining true to the one that you lost. It's

23:15

not a sort of zero-sum game.

23:21

There's no, I

23:23

guess, moving on is the wrong term.

23:26

And the idea of closure is the

23:28

wrong term. Yeah, I think that word is becoming

23:30

discredited, even in psychology. Yeah,

23:33

okay, I'm glad to hear it. And also

23:35

acceptance, I find, is not

23:38

an ideal term either. Because

23:40

that to me feels like a sort of returning

23:43

to the way things were before.

23:46

And I don't think you do. I think, in fact, it's

23:48

a kind of... We

23:50

just grow in magnitude.

23:55

That's sort of predicated on those we

23:58

lose. It's an amazing

24:01

thing. I mean, let's say this with

24:04

a huge amount of caution, obviously,

24:06

because I'd love

24:08

it to be the way it was, actually. You

24:11

know, and just be, have my children,

24:14

obviously, right? But

24:18

having said that, there is a sort of... One

24:22

feels an enormous and new

24:24

capacity

24:25

to love, I think. One

24:27

can feel that way.

25:03

I love them right from

25:05

the start. World's

25:12

so beautiful.

25:15

There's a phrase that

25:17

comes up in the book of spiritual acceptance,

25:21

and you

25:22

talk about poetic truths or metaphorical

25:25

truths that

25:26

when something is true enough, it's

25:28

of real practical benefit. All

25:31

of these things we're talking about are in the realm of there

25:35

being no definitive. No.

25:38

Right? There's nothing to point

25:40

at that is

25:41

resolution or... No, these are abstractions. Right,

25:44

right. And in that

25:46

respect, it's extraordinarily

25:48

difficult to argue your corner about these

25:51

sorts of things against so-called

25:53

rational and empirical truths about things.

25:57

They have all the big guns. You

25:59

just have a cup of tea. kind of a sort

26:03

of a feeling or a sort of a softly

26:06

spoken notion about these

26:09

sorts of things. And so

26:12

in a way I've given up trying

26:15

to, I mean, I think everyone who

26:17

has a sort of religious inclinations, I mean,

26:20

I prefer to use the word

26:22

religious rather than spiritual.

26:25

Yeah, what did you say? Religion is spirituality

26:28

with rigor. Yeah, I just feel

26:30

it's like a little, it's

26:32

asking something of us rather than,

26:34

yeah, we're all spiritual creatures, which of

26:36

course we are. And that, I mean,

26:39

I'm more traditional too, in

26:41

the sense that I find an acute

26:44

feeling of the mystery

26:47

of

26:48

these matters in church. You

26:51

know, and I know a

26:53

lot of people have felt

26:57

that it's better to take, you know,

26:59

release God from the church and all of that

27:01

stuff, right? But I have

27:04

found in the last year or so

27:06

that this is a

27:08

place that I've

27:10

actually found a church in the

27:12

UK, which I won't mention which one it is because

27:15

I just want to go there privately.

27:19

That is cut off from the world. It feels

27:21

no need to address the

27:24

problems of the world. It's a place

27:26

that you go. It's so

27:28

beautiful. The singing is so

27:30

beautiful. The music, the organ

27:32

players off the charts

27:37

in regard to just the pure drama

27:39

of the sort of narrative that plays out

27:41

in the church service. It blows

27:43

away my basic skeptical

27:46

nature in a heartbeat and it allows

27:48

me the

27:51

permission to be deeply

27:54

connected to those people that I've

27:57

lost.

27:58

That's what it's about.

27:59

essentially.

28:02

And

28:03

you know, by the time it gets to the communion, it's

28:07

unbelievably moving, this service. In

28:09

fact, this church has got a reputation of being

28:12

the church for atheists, because

28:15

it's so beautiful that anyone

28:17

can just sort of feel these sorts of things.

28:20

You know, there's the phrase spiritual but not religious.

28:23

But

28:23

I also, something that I think

28:25

is also coming back is religious but

28:28

not spiritual. Yeah, yeah.

28:30

I feel more...it's

28:34

when I'm in a church that doesn't know what

28:37

it wants to do where all my skepticism

28:39

about whether God exists or

28:42

what the hell am I doing in this place and all of that

28:44

sort of stuff comes rushing in. You know,

28:46

I've become personally embarrassed

28:50

to be in this place. And

28:53

so there's something to be said for all its flaws

28:55

and all the rest of it, obviously. It's

28:58

a deeply traditional way of

29:02

going about religion or

29:04

navigating religion.

29:05

Yes, and it's, you might say, just

29:08

kind of referring back to something you said a minute ago,

29:12

it's religious institutions, you

29:15

know, engaging

29:15

in that conversation

29:19

with rationality defensively

29:21

and losing the ground they stand on. And

29:24

yet, just kind of to go back to where we started,

29:26

that what you learn

29:29

in the thick of life is

29:31

the limits of rationality, that this

29:34

rational way of being that thinks and

29:36

insists that we can plan

29:38

everything and that in fact we won't

29:41

again and again be obliterated by things

29:43

that happen to us. You know,

29:45

it's actually not a reality thing. I

29:47

don't want to go into a church

29:50

to sort of draw closer to the

29:52

rational things in life. Right.

29:54

I mean, here's the thing you said that I actually

29:57

think would be

29:57

very refreshing for a lot of people to hear.

30:00

This is again in that dialogue

30:02

with the rational. Religion

30:04

is a crutch and a much

30:06

needed one.

30:07

Right. Yeah, well, that's

30:11

true and I

30:14

have a lot of sympathy for people

30:16

who use religion in that way and I find

30:18

it difficult to tolerate,

30:21

I guess, the argument that

30:23

comes around kicking the crutches out

30:26

from under people, you know, but with

30:29

their rationality and

30:31

because we need these things. The

30:34

reality is. You know, whether, I mean,

30:37

this is beyond whether God exists and stuff,

30:40

but these matters. Now I have my own, you

30:43

know, views that ebb and flow about

30:45

that sort of thing, but at

30:47

the same time I'm not simply talking about that

30:50

religion is useful in some rational

30:53

way either. There's some other thing that's going

30:55

on in religion that's more important

30:57

than that, but it is useful also

31:01

that it does ameliorate

31:04

that need to some degree of

31:05

yearning that we're talking about or at least

31:08

something that we can reach toward.

31:40

On Being with Christa Tippett is supported

31:42

in part by the John Templeton Foundation, funding

31:45

research and catalyzing conversations that

31:47

inspire people with awe and wonder. On

31:50

the Templeton Ideas Podcast, they dive

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32:00

Learn more at templeton.org.

32:33

So let's talk about the mystery

32:34

of music and songwriting. I

32:39

actually wanted to read you a poem.

32:41

Would you like that? Mary Oliver poem. Who

32:44

wrote

32:45

this? Oh, okay.

32:48

Do you know her? Yeah.

32:51

I was enjoying everything. The

32:53

rain, the path, wherever it was taking

32:56

me, the earth roots beginning to

32:58

stir. I didn't intend to

33:00

start thinking about God. It just

33:02

happened. How God or

33:04

the gods are invisible, quite

33:07

understandable, but holiness

33:10

is visible entirely. It's

33:13

wonderful to walk along like that, though

33:15

not the usual intention to reach

33:17

an answer, but merely drifting. Like

33:20

clouds that only seem weightless,

33:23

but of course are not, are really

33:25

important. I mean, terribly important,

33:28

not decoration by any means. By

33:32

next week, the violets will be blooming.

33:34

Anyway, this was my delicious walk

33:37

in the rain. What was it

33:39

actually about?

33:40

Think about what it is that music

33:43

is trying to say.

33:45

It was something like that.

33:47

Okay, well, it's lovely. So

33:51

what music is trying

33:52

to say, what does

33:55

that evoke for you? Well, okay.

34:02

I mean, of course, the point of the poem

34:04

is that you can't sum that up, but

34:05

I'm just curious about where Nick K's mind is.

34:07

No, no. You can't really

34:09

sum that up, but I can give

34:12

it a go. And

34:16

my feelings about this have changed

34:19

too over the years, but it

34:22

feels to me that music in

34:24

itself, I would say, has

34:26

a moral dimension, that it's essentially

34:29

good, that it works

34:32

to improve matters. And

34:35

that's how I

34:38

go about concerts these days. I feel

34:41

that, and it's not me

34:43

in particular, but any musician, in

34:45

fact, playing any kind of music can

34:50

do something to improve matters. And

34:55

then there is, of course, the sort of transcendent

34:58

element to the

35:00

communal element, the

35:03

sort of outpouring, intaking,

35:07

the sort of circular thing

35:09

that goes on with an audience of love. Yeah.

35:12

The way we now know that music actually

35:14

syncs up

35:15

breath and heartbeats.

35:19

You mean communally. Yeah, communally. Yeah,

35:21

that's right. And

35:23

as a performer, I mean,

35:26

my concerts these days get quite wild

35:29

in that respect. And

35:31

that's why I spend so much time right

35:33

up the front with the audience, because I can

35:35

see them better. But it's

35:38

quite something to look into the face of

35:41

a person that's having a transcendent

35:43

experience. It's quite something.

35:46

And especially en masse.

35:50

I find that

35:52

each time I'm playing and doing a concert,

35:54

I feel that I'm doing something

35:56

to help rehabilitate the

35:59

world more.

35:59

It's a

36:02

remedy for the world in some

36:04

kind of way. And I don't mean that in a high-blown

36:06

kind of way. In fact, it

36:09

to me is like a small act

36:12

of kindness too in the

36:14

way that we all have the opportunity

36:18

to do. But

36:20

there is also a mysterious

36:23

and transcendent element

36:25

to music. So

36:26

I have to ask you, I mean...

36:27

That was an incredibly confused answer,

36:29

right? No, it wasn't at all. It was very clear.

36:32

It was very clear. But

36:35

I do have to ask, you know, the birthday

36:37

party band, which you were part

36:38

of in your earlier life, which was

36:40

at one point called the Most Violent Band in

36:42

the World, which I think was promotional. Is

36:45

that

36:45

also... Quite

36:47

close to it. Is that also

36:49

true even of that music?

36:50

Yeah, I think that we

36:53

were always attempting

36:55

in our way to find something

36:57

that was... Yeah, yeah.

37:00

I mean, do I think it's transcendent? Yes,

37:02

I do. And very much so.

37:06

And even though what I'm

37:08

singing about is deeply, I don't

37:11

know, problematic back

37:13

then, I would say, to use that terrible

37:15

word. Even

37:18

still, I think it has this potential

37:21

for doing good. And

37:24

I just think we were looking for it

37:27

in a different way. We were young and finding

37:30

that sort of transcendent impulse in

37:32

chaos. I

37:34

mean, I didn't look at things in that way at that time,

37:36

but I can see that quite clearly.

37:43

I can see my attitude at the time as

37:45

a young teenage,

37:47

I was just a drug-addicted

37:49

young guy that

37:53

I had a kind of jaundiced

37:56

sort of contemptuous view of the

37:58

world. And that was the sort of deflection. the default setting

38:00

of my view of humanity

38:03

and... It

38:05

was extreme, but it was also the

38:07

way a lot of young people see the world

38:09

and in many ways from

38:12

their perspective quite rightly so.

38:15

Here's something you said in the

38:17

book.

38:20

You only need 10 songs, 10

38:23

beautiful and breathtaking accidents

38:25

to make up a record. You have

38:28

to be patient and alert to the little

38:30

miracles nestled in the ordinary.

38:41

To get onto that, those 10

38:44

songs, it seems kind of easy

38:46

to do, but actually to get 10 songs, to get 10

38:49

miracles of which actually

38:53

only maybe three of them are actually

38:55

miraculous. The other one

38:58

felt like they were at the time. For

39:00

me personally, it takes an enormous amount

39:03

of... I have

39:05

a particular kind of bizarre

39:08

work ethic where I get up and

39:10

I sit down at 9 o'clock in the morning and I start

39:13

writing and I finish at 5.30 and

39:15

I do it within office hours

39:17

and I try not to

39:19

think creatively after that. If

39:23

I have a muse that has to keep office hours

39:25

with me or my muse

39:28

makes me keep office hours or something

39:30

like that, but essentially every

39:33

day when I write a record,

39:35

I elect the day

39:37

that I'm going to start writing it. I haven't written

39:40

anything for a couple of years and

39:43

I start to write a new record. To

39:45

arrive at those 10 little miracles is actually

39:48

extraordinarily difficult and

39:51

full of all sorts of rather

39:53

embarrassing anxieties

39:56

that my wife... That's

39:58

right. ...the roles that role...

39:59

of the role of her eyes. I'm like, it's

40:02

not coming darling, it's not coming.

40:04

She's quite

40:06

funny about that sort of

40:08

thing. Not at all sympathetic.

40:13

Something else that you speak about is improvisation,

40:16

which I feel is such an important...

40:20

something that a musician can speak about,

40:22

but actually it's a life experience.

40:25

Just a couple of things that you said I'd love to... improvisation

40:29

is an act of acute vulnerability.

40:32

And this I love. The nature of improvisation

40:36

is the coming together of two people with

40:38

love and a certain dissonance.

40:40

Yeah, well that's certainly the case

40:42

with me and the guy I improvise with Warren.

40:47

It's quite an extraordinary thing and

40:51

it's a place where our relationship

40:54

ignites in quite

40:56

a magical way. We

40:59

found that this is

41:01

just a way we can write together, where

41:04

you're in the company of someone else.

41:07

I

41:08

don't want to throw things over. It might be that

41:10

two or more are gathered

41:12

together or something. Is it

41:15

two or three? I can't remember. I think it's two or three.

41:17

Two or three are gathered together. I

41:19

like that. I am in your midst

41:21

that

41:23

there's

41:24

something that certainly goes on. There's a mystery

41:27

to it. Yeah, there is a mystery to it

41:29

that we don't talk about. We

41:32

just do it.

41:35

It's an extraordinary thing because something

41:39

happens where it makes conversation

41:41

and these sorts of things meaningless.

41:45

So we just create and

41:47

we sit and have lunch together and kind of barely

41:50

speak and then we go in and do this stuff.

41:52

So it's this relationship that we have that's

41:56

extremely strong around this act

41:58

of improvisation.

41:59

I love that you also say

42:02

with love, right? Yeah, yeah.

42:03

It is an act of

42:05

love for each other, you know,

42:07

as well.

42:09

And some of the energy of what

42:11

transpires certainly is nourished

42:13

by that also. Yeah, yeah. And

42:16

I mean, just, you know, a mysterious

42:19

thing also about the Skeleton Tree album.

42:23

You released it right after Arthur's death,

42:25

but it felt like an album that was... Well,

42:28

it was all written and recorded before he died.

42:30

Written and recorded.

42:30

And then, and

42:33

even when people write about it, they write

42:35

about it as the album you created after

42:37

his death. And in fact, it was... You've

42:40

talked about it like it was kind of foretelling

42:43

the future

42:43

in this. Yeah, I just

42:45

feel essentially that songs

42:50

seem to know more about what's going

42:52

on than you do. I

42:56

don't want to make too much of that

42:58

you listen to it. And it's these things that

43:01

you can... It's not like a kind of Beatles

43:03

album that you play it backwards, it, you

43:05

know, speaks in tongues or something like that.

43:08

There's just something about that record that

43:11

I felt

43:12

had a dark energy

43:14

of a particular kind that I felt

43:17

extremely uncomfortable about, especially

43:20

after my son died,

43:22

because we then had to go

43:24

into the studio and mix it. And these

43:26

songs seem to be speaking deeply

43:29

into that in a very disconcerting

43:32

way at the time. I

43:34

find that

43:35

to be quite a difficult record too.

43:37

Listen to it. Not that I really listen

43:40

to myself, but that record

43:42

in particular. The record after

43:44

that, Ghostine, is something that's directly...

43:48

You know, it's essentially made... Certainly

43:52

when I was making it, I

43:55

was attempting in some way to reach

43:58

out.

43:59

to Arthur, in

44:02

what way, I'm not quite sure. But this

44:06

is a strange thing to talk about. I find it

44:08

very difficult to articulate, but at

44:10

the time, to somehow

44:14

attempt to,

44:15

well,

44:17

it was to ask forgiveness in some

44:20

kind of way for what had happened with

44:22

Arthur. In

44:25

the sense that I had sort of residual

44:28

feelings of guilt and these sorts

44:30

of things that I think parents tend to

44:32

do, if they've lost a child,

44:35

and to sort of

44:39

help his condition.

44:41

That was the thing that was

44:43

going through my mind at the time,

44:46

and to do something

44:48

other than just burying him. And

44:51

I love that record

44:52

ghosting, because I think we managed

44:55

to do something that was very beautiful

44:57

in that respect.

45:17

He's moving on,

45:22

down the road.

45:24

Things

45:28

tend to fall apart,

45:32

starting with his heart.

45:36

It's kind of a mythical narrative,

45:39

almost, but you said it became

45:42

an imagined

45:42

world where Arthur could be. Yeah,

45:46

that's a lovely way to put it. Good

45:49

job.

45:50

You said he's running around inside

45:52

the songs.

45:52

Oh, did I say that? Yeah, I think

45:54

it's in the book. But did you

45:56

feel that when you were writing it, or was it after

45:59

you had produced it? No, I felt that.

46:03

There were lots that were going on when

46:06

I was making that record that

46:09

there was a desperation that was

46:11

going on behind the record,

46:14

and just to make sense of things. And

46:18

that record weirdly went some

46:20

way of making sense of something

46:23

that I could do something tangible,

46:26

not just in his

46:29

memory, but

46:31

for him as a sort of... It's

46:34

too difficult for me to... but for

46:36

him.

46:38

To

46:40

somehow help his spiritual

46:42

condition. Even

46:45

though I know that that sounds

46:49

sort of crazy, at the

46:52

time it didn't.

46:55

I don't know. It doesn't sound

46:56

crazy unless you think there's no

46:58

such thing as mystery. Well,

47:01

at the time of making that, I mean,

47:04

I don't know about these matters.

47:06

I don't know about these matters. And

47:08

so I can't argue one way

47:11

or other about those sorts

47:13

of things. But we have

47:15

intuitions, and I think that

47:18

they were highly... At

47:20

the time, they were... I

47:23

was very responsive

47:25

to that sort of thing.

47:28

In a summary, you talked about... You

47:31

said songs have an essential self. And

47:36

there's this song, the track on that

47:38

album, Ghosting Speaks. And

47:41

then there's also the seven

47:43

songs you've done, right? There's

47:46

almost a way in which... And with

47:48

the Ghosting Speaks, you said that that one just

47:51

condensed into a mantra, condensed into

47:53

a player. There's

47:56

a liturgical quality to some of the music

47:58

you do now. Which

48:00

seems to me, it makes

48:03

sense as a reflection of the fullness

48:05

of this experience that

48:08

you've been having of being alive in

48:10

these last years.

48:11

Yeah, the Ghostine Speaks started

48:14

as a massive thing

48:16

and it just kept getting smaller

48:19

and smaller until I think

48:21

it's pretty much, I am

48:23

beside you, look for me.

48:25

That's essentially what it is over

48:27

and over again. I

48:30

am beside you. I

48:36

am beside you.

48:42

I am beside you.

48:47

I am

48:49

beside you.

48:54

Look for me. Look

49:00

for me. That song

49:02

is essentially from his point

49:04

of view. You know that I am beside you. That

49:06

he is beside you. Yeah, look for me. Yes.

49:10

I am beside you.

49:16

Look for me. I

49:19

try to forgive.

49:28

As with a lot of our improvised

49:31

material, it is improvised

49:33

over chordal patterns that I don't know

49:35

exactly what's going on because

49:37

we're playing together at the same time.

49:39

And so these

49:42

words sometimes feel like they come from

49:44

other places. It

49:45

certainly did at the time.

49:49

Where something's

49:51

meant to be, I

49:57

am beside you.

50:01

I am beside

50:04

you.

50:07

This feels to me like it just

50:09

kind of, you know, wrapping back around to

50:12

the limits of the rational

50:14

and how hard it is to

50:18

speak of the mysterious. But you said, I

50:20

love this, but you said there is no

50:22

problem of evil, there is only a problem

50:25

of good.

50:28

Yeah, it's the

50:33

audacity of the

50:35

world to continue to be beautiful

50:37

and continue to be good in

50:40

times of deep

50:41

suffering.

50:45

That's how I saw the world. It

50:47

was sort of not

50:48

paying me any attention.

50:51

It was just carrying on, being systemically

50:54

gorgeous. You

50:57

know, and,

51:02

you know, how dare it.

51:06

But there you have it, you know. I

51:09

get letters too from people who write

51:11

into the Red Hand Files who are furious with

51:14

the way I talk about these sorts of things. How

51:16

can you, you know, they are so

51:19

ruined

51:21

by loss and they

51:23

see that I have a kind of, you

51:26

know, I am sort of putting

51:28

a positive spin on their

51:31

agony. And

51:34

I understand that too, but

51:36

I think

51:39

it's not just me, I think it's

51:42

everything that's happening around them, that

51:45

life goes on and

51:49

the sun still rises and the birds

51:51

sit in the trees and all the rest of it.

51:54

And there feels like it's almost

51:56

an act of kind of cosmic

51:59

betrayal. for this to be going

52:01

on. You know, it's because

52:04

people are suffering so deeply. And

52:08

that's one thing I try and say

52:10

is that, because we've

52:13

already spoken about this, but the

52:15

temptation is to cling on to

52:18

that absence, to sort of fold

52:21

yourself around the lack

52:23

of something, rather than turning

52:26

yourself out and looking at the world

52:28

in that kind of way and coming to terms with that.

52:31

It's dangerous. It

52:34

can be kind of become like a hardening

52:37

of the soul around

52:39

this kind

52:42

of disappearance of something. And

52:44

that's not good, you

52:46

know. I try not to

52:48

tell people

52:49

what to do about things, but that's

52:52

one thing I think that...

52:54

grieving people need to be careful about.

52:58

Mm-hmm.

53:00

I think we've touched on this, or I just

53:02

want to kind of land here

53:03

also, that

53:05

we live in this

53:07

age where, you know,

53:11

the pandemic was an extraordinary

53:13

experience.

53:14

The pain of that is still with us. The

53:16

rupture of that is still with us.

53:19

We really did have a collective, have

53:22

had a collective moment of loss. And then, you know,

53:25

this phrase, ecological grief, right?

53:28

We are all experiencing rupture

53:30

in this beautiful planet, which

53:34

we are of, not in. And

53:36

so I

53:37

feel like there's... Sorry, go

53:39

on. Well, do you think that... Did

53:42

you feel that the pandemic offered

53:44

us an opportunity? I did.

53:47

And that we squandered that opportunity,

53:49

or that we... No, you know, I have

53:50

felt that. I

53:53

guess I try to... I

53:58

try to take a longer view of time. and

54:00

say that

54:02

it

54:05

might still happen, and that it's happening

54:07

perhaps in ways that

54:08

are hard to chart. Yeah, exactly,

54:11

beautifully put. And I

54:13

feel that too in some kind of way, that even

54:16

though the world

54:18

ruptured further, that

54:21

it wasn't a great bringing together in

54:25

any way. I think it has

54:29

sort of focused

54:31

some people's needs

54:34

in a different way. You

54:37

know, yeah,

54:38

it's a difficult thing

54:40

to talk about, but

54:42

I've just noticed with people that

54:44

they feel more attentive to things,

54:50

spiritual matters, to... I'm

54:52

feeling that too. For one of

54:53

a better word. No, that people are really

54:54

ready to go into places. I never use that word, by the

54:56

way. No, I don't either. I don't either,

54:59

but that word itself used to be anathema.

55:02

And it's not in this

55:05

unrigorous way that you and I... Yes,

55:07

yes. I mean to say this, that

55:10

five years ago, if I'd

55:13

sat down at the dinner table and talked about

55:15

going to church, I'd be laughed out of the room,

55:17

essentially. I don't know. I mean, maybe you

55:19

sit around with different people,

55:22

but these days there is a weird

55:25

kind of curiosity around those sorts of things,

55:28

that it's not seen

55:30

in the same way. And

55:33

that might be a whole lot of different reasons, but I feel

55:35

that the pandemic and

55:38

the other things that you're talking about too are

55:42

igniting these

55:44

concerns in people, in some people.

55:47

I mean, you had this lovely sentence

55:50

in the book also. You said you perceived

55:52

a subterranean

55:55

undertow of concern and connectivity.

56:00

towards a more empathic and enhanced existence.

56:03

And I experience that too. It's not the

56:05

whole picture, right? It's not what gets reported,

56:08

but it seems to be quietly

56:11

rising up.

56:13

Well, I think that goes

56:16

back to what we're talking about at the start, the

56:18

recognition of our common condition,

56:22

which is loss.

56:25

Now, I know a lot of people will

56:27

react very badly to that, but

56:30

on top of that, there's all sorts of other

56:32

things that are going on within our planet.

56:34

I think that that is the sort of bedrock

56:37

that I think we recognized on some

56:39

level.

56:42

I really do see

56:45

you as a poet. Do you see

56:47

yourself as a poet, as a songwriter?

56:48

Not really. Not really.

56:52

Well, I don't. I mean,

56:54

I've still kind of, I feel I'm

56:57

a songwriter. Yeah. When

56:59

people say, I think you're a poet, it often feels like

57:01

they're suggesting that for some reason,

57:04

there's a poetry as a kind of elevated

57:06

form of songwriting. And I'm very

57:08

proud to be a songwriter. Well, I

57:10

think they're the same thing, right? Aren't

57:12

they just the same thing? Yeah, well, I guess.

57:14

I mean, I think songs are the primary

57:17

way that humans

57:19

alive today imbibe poetry without

57:22

realizing that perhaps thinking

57:24

that poetry is a part

57:25

of their life. My

57:27

father was a sort of English literature

57:29

teacher and he had his views on what poetry was

57:32

and what poetry wasn't. He probably wouldn't have agreed with Bob

57:34

Dylan getting the nova.

57:35

Well, I don't know, but he certainly didn't,

57:37

you know, I mean,

57:40

he saw Shakespeare sitting up there at the top

57:42

of everything. Yeah. And I

57:44

still very much hear him

57:47

sort of gnashing his teeth whenever

57:49

I talk about this sort of thing. So

57:51

this song Anthropocene, though,

57:54

to me. It's actually Anthropocene. I

57:56

did a sort of bastardization of the... Oh, I thought

57:58

it was misspelled. No, no.

57:59

I just thought I was seeing this. Phil, I went to Encourage

58:02

Silk, right? No, no, no, it's actually

58:04

called Anthropine. Okay,

58:06

anyway, would you entertain

58:08

the idea of reading this?

58:09

No, I wouldn't like to read

58:11

that one because I don't think the lyrics are very good.

58:14

Well, can I just read the last two

58:16

lines that feel that they

58:18

speak to our world now? Okay.

58:20

Go

58:23

on, go for it.

58:27

Here they come now, here they come, pulling

58:29

you away. There are powers at play, more

58:32

forceful than we. Come over here and

58:34

sit down and

58:34

see a short prayer, a prayer

58:35

to the air, to the air we breathed,

58:39

and the astonishing rise of the Anthropine.

58:41

Come on now, come on now, hold your breath

58:43

while you say, it's a long way back,

58:46

and I'm begging you please to come home now, come

58:48

home now.

58:49

I heard you've been out looking for something

58:51

to love. Close your eyes, little world,

58:54

and brace yourself. Oh, yeah, that's

58:57

pretty good, right? It's pretty good. Wow,

58:59

what a great song. You want to read those last words when

59:01

you read it? Okay.

59:06

Okay, here they come now,

59:08

here they come, pulling you away. There

59:11

are powers at play, more forceful than

59:13

we. Come over here and sit

59:15

down and say a short prayer, a prayer

59:18

to the air, to the air that we breathe,

59:20

and the astonishing rise of the Anthropine.

59:25

Come on now, come on now, hold your breath

59:27

while you say, it's a long way back,

59:30

and I'm begging you please to come home

59:32

now, come home now. I've

59:36

heard you've been out looking for something to love.

59:39

Close your eyes, little world, and brace

59:41

yourself.

59:41

I heard

59:43

you've been out looking for

59:46

something

59:47

to love. Close

59:52

your eyes, little world,

59:56

and brace yourself.

1:00:00

Well that's awesome.

1:00:01

It's awesome. Thank

1:00:05

you so much. Thank you so

1:00:08

much for what you do and how you've opened

1:00:10

yourself to being present to everybody

1:00:12

else with what you carry and

1:00:15

for making your

1:00:15

trip to our studio. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really

1:00:17

enjoyed it. It's lovely. Thank you very much.

1:00:20

Yeah, it's been beautiful.

1:00:52

Nick Cave is the songwriter and lead

1:00:54

singer of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds.

1:00:57

Their albums include Ghostine,

1:00:59

Skeleton Tree, and Push the Sky

1:01:01

Away. His recent albums with

1:01:04

frequent collaborator Warren Ellis

1:01:06

include Seven Psalms

1:01:07

and Carnage. His

1:01:10

book, which takes the form of an electric

1:01:12

conversation with journalist Sean

1:01:14

O'Hagan, is Faith, Hope,

1:01:17

and Carnage. Nick frequently

1:01:19

writes and answers questions from his fans

1:01:22

on the website, The Red

1:01:23

Hand Files. The

1:01:37

on-being project is Chris

1:01:39

Giegel, Laurenne Drummerhausen, Eddie

1:01:41

Gonzalez, Lillian Vo, Lucas

1:01:44

Johnson, Suzette Burley, Zach

1:01:46

Rose, Colleen Chek, Julie

1:01:48

Seifel, Gretchen Hahnold, Rodrigo

1:01:50

Tuma, Gautam Srikishin, April

1:01:53

Adamson, Ashley Herr, Amy

1:01:55

Chatelain, Cameron Musar,

1:01:56

Kayla Edwards, Tiffany Champion,

1:01:59

Juliette Downey,

1:01:59

Vanessa Hale, and Andrea

1:02:02

Prevost.

1:02:03

Special, special thanks to AWOL,

1:02:06

BMG, and Cobalt Music Group

1:02:08

for permission to use the music in this

1:02:10

episode, and to Penguin

1:02:12

Press for permission to read Mary

1:02:14

Oliver's poem, Drifting, which

1:02:17

is published in the collection, Devotions,

1:02:19

the Selected Poems of Mary Oliver.

1:02:28

On Being is an independent, non-profit

1:02:30

production of The On Being Project.

1:02:33

We are located on Dakota land.

1:02:35

Our lovely theme music is provided and

1:02:37

composed by Zoe Keating. Our

1:02:40

closing music was composed by Gautam

1:02:42

Srikashin. And the last voice you

1:02:44

hear singing at the end of our show is Cameron

1:02:47

Kinghern. Our funding partners

1:02:49

include the Harsland Foundation,

1:02:52

helping to build a more just, equitable,

1:02:54

and connected America, one

1:02:56

creative act at a time. The

1:02:58

Fetzer Institute, supporting a movement

1:03:01

of organizations applying spiritual

1:03:03

solutions to society's toughest problems.

1:03:06

Find them at Fetzer.org.

1:03:09

Talia Paya Foundation, dedicated

1:03:12

to cultivating the connections between ecology,

1:03:15

culture, and spirituality, supporting

1:03:17

initiatives and organizations that uphold

1:03:20

sacred relationships with the living

1:03:22

earth. Learn more at Talia

1:03:24

Paya.org. The

1:03:26

Osprey Foundation, a catalyst for

1:03:29

empowered, healthy, and fulfilled

1:03:31

lives. And the Lilly Endowment,

1:03:34

an Indianapolis-based private family

1:03:36

foundation dedicated to its founders'

1:03:39

interests in religion, community development,

1:03:42

and education.