0:05

Welcome to On the Job. It's hard

0:07

to believe it that this is now our eighth

0:09

season, so a sincere thank

0:11

you to those of you who've been listening through the years.

0:14

We're thrilled to have you back, and

0:16

to you newcomers, welcome in. We've

0:19

got a lot of great stories coming your way

0:21

because on this season of On the Job,

0:24

we're going to be focusing our attention

0:26

on people who have made some pivots in their

0:28

careers, because while

0:30

things are looking pretty good out there, if

0:33

the recent years taught us anything it's

0:35

that life and the workplace are

0:37

filled with uncertainty. But

0:40

as we're going to hear over the next eight episodes,

0:43

change doesn't have to be a bad thing

0:46

to stick around.

0:50

If you're not sure how to feel about the economy

0:53

these days, you're not alone. It's

0:55

an admittedly confusing time right

0:57

now. On one hand, we've got quite

0:59

a low unemployment rate and arising

1:02

GDP, which are both great

1:04

statistics. Yet at the same

1:06

time, consumer confidence is shaky,

1:09

and according to a recent Pew Research

1:11

poll, when Americans were asked

1:13

how they feel about the economy, about

1:16

three and ten said it's excellent. Well

1:18

nearly the same number of people said

1:20

the exact opposite. So

1:22

to try to make sense of what's going on out

1:25

there, I gave a call up to Boston,

1:27

Massachusetts to speak with author,

1:30

labor historian, and fellow at

1:32

Harvard Law mark Erlick, to

1:34

help us cut through some of that confusion

1:36

and gain a better understanding of how

1:39

our economy is faring and what might

1:41

be coming our way. Mark

1:44

Erlick, thank you for being on the podcast.

1:46

Let's jump right into it. How's it looking

1:49

out there to you?

1:50

Well, I actually think it's looking quite

1:52

good. You know, there's the issue

1:54

of perception and reality and

1:57

how it's perceived politically about

1:59

the reality is that the job market keeps

2:01

climbing, that we have come out

2:03

of the pandemic better

2:06

than really any other country in the world,

2:08

and I think there are a lot of opportunities.

2:10

I would say that to the degree

2:13

that what our future holds in some ways

2:15

is dependent on the election in

2:17

November and whether the current

2:20

trends continue or whether there's a sharp

2:22

turn to a different

2:24

set of politics and economics.

2:26

You mentioned the election.

2:28

Is there anything else we should sort of have on

2:30

our horizon to be aware of?

2:32

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's all sorts of shocks

2:34

that come that nobody can ever anticipate.

2:37

Certainly, I think the Russian

2:39

invasion of Ukraine ended up having global

2:41

consequences that nobody expected

2:44

and nobody anticipated. So you know, I'm

2:47

not about to pull out my crystal ball and tell you

2:50

what shocks are on the way.

2:51

I don't know.

2:52

But if if we presume

2:55

that basically the essential

2:57

elements of economic life continuous,

3:00

they are, you know, I think the future

3:02

is pretty promising, and there's a lot

3:04

of federal dollars

3:07

that are going to be invested in the economy that

3:09

you know, while the infrastructure bill

3:11

was passed a couple of years ago, those dollars

3:13

are really only getting

3:16

on the ground now and in the near

3:18

future. So, you

3:20

know, particularly for folks

3:22

in the construction industry, the outlook

3:24

is pretty promising.

3:26

As Mark told me, there's only so much

3:28

crystal ballgazing one can do. As

3:31

a historian, he knows that unforeseen

3:33

surprises are both unpredictable

3:36

and inevitable. However,

3:39

there is one thing that we can all

3:41

see coming our way, and that's

3:43

AI.

3:44

I think for the majority of jobs,

3:47

I don't think in the short term

3:49

is going to be much of an impact one way or another. I

3:51

think twenty five thirty fifty years

3:53

out, the impact of AI

3:56

is probably going to be incomprehensible.

3:59

Means well, we might

4:02

not be able to fully grasp what a world

4:04

with AI is going to look like. Mark

4:07

suggests that we don't necessarily have

4:09

to fear it or fight it tooth and nail.

4:12

Sometimes the best way to prepare for our

4:14

future is to understand our past,

4:17

and so Mark looks to previous innovations

4:19

like the computer and Internet, which

4:22

were certainly disruptive to some, but

4:24

instead of eliminating tons of jobs,

4:28

they've been incorporated into them, allowing

4:30

people to do their jobs better.

4:33

If you walk on the construction site and

4:36

you open up the old gang box where everybody

4:38

used to store the tools, nine times

4:40

out of ten you open up the gang box and the inside

4:42

of the lid is a flat screen because

4:44

everything is done on iPads. Now that the

4:46

foreman, that the lead electricians, lead

4:48

carpers, will have an iPad, and

4:52

the architects will be shooting drawings back and forth.

4:55

And at least for now, it seems unlikely

4:57

that AI will be able to replace a plumber

5:00

or an electrician anytime soon, which

5:03

is a great thing because those types

5:05

of jobs, the sort of skilled

5:07

trade jobs, are having quite

5:09

a resurgence these days. And

5:11

Mark, a former carpenter himself,

5:14

which we'll hear more about in the second half

5:16

of the episode, says, not

5:18

only are those jobs quite plentiful these

5:20

days, they were also finally

5:23

getting their respect they deserve.

5:25

Yeah, I think that's been an interesting process.

5:29

I think that's for two reasons. One

5:32

is that guidance counselors

5:34

in high schools and families

5:37

works kept saying college,

5:39

college, college, college. You got to go

5:41

to college if you're going to have a secure living. And

5:44

what happened when you graduated. You had a

5:46

pile of student debt and

5:48

you were a barista or an uber driver,

5:51

and the prospects,

5:53

the employment prospects were not anywhere

5:56

near what they had been projected

5:58

to be. On the other hand, if you do

6:00

blue collar work, if you frankly, if you go

6:03

say through an apprenticeship program,

6:06

you are earning while you learn. There

6:08

is no debt. You're learning

6:10

a skill. In four years and you've become

6:12

a licensed electrician or you become

6:14

a master carpenter or whatever,

6:17

and the occupation may.

6:18

Be, and you have been.

6:20

You've been making money that entire time,

6:23

and you're well

6:25

on your way towards, you know,

6:27

having a secure livelihood. I mean, you

6:29

know, not to romanticize these occupations.

6:32

They're still dangerous, they're dirty,

6:34

they're difficult, but

6:37

it is I think, becoming increasingly

6:39

attractive to people when they look, on the one hand,

6:42

as college tuitions keep increasing

6:45

and increasing, that becomes an

6:47

attractive alternative. And I think that's a good

6:49

thing, because I think for too long we

6:51

devalue that kind of work in the society.

6:54

And I'm glad to see, like the

6:56

enrollment of vocational schools is increasing

6:58

all over the country, and that

7:00

seems to me kind of like one hundred and eighty degree

7:02

shift from say even twenty years ago.

7:06

With soaring enrollment in technical

7:08

and vocational schools and a strong

7:11

jobs market in the blue collar sector,

7:13

some have even started calling gen Z

7:16

the tool belt generation. And

7:19

as public opinion of the trades continues

7:21

to change, so too are the

7:23

people drawn to them. For

7:25

example, women's participation

7:28

in the blue collar sector is now at a twenty

7:30

five year high.

7:32

Yeah, you know, when I was an apprentice again a

7:34

long time ago, back in the seventies, they

7:39

were sort of the pioneers who came in with Title

7:41

nine back in the late seventies with the

7:43

federal order, and it

7:46

was really very, very

7:48

difficult. I mean, most of the guys on the job

7:52

did nothing one way or another, but they were always

7:55

a veryly large number

7:57

of jerks who were really

7:59

hostile. I mean, thankfully those

8:01

days are gone.

8:03

Mark has even seen support groups for

8:06

women in the trades popping up around the

8:08

country to offer mentoring and to

8:10

increase retention.

8:12

You're seeing women in the trades being

8:15

elevated to leadership positions

8:17

in the industry.

8:19

It's a very healthy thing, very good thing.

8:21

And a similar trend is happening with foreign

8:24

born Americans.

8:26

My parents are immigrants. I'm a big support

8:28

of immigration. I think this country was built

8:31

on immigrant labor, and the

8:33

only difference now is that it's instead

8:36

of being folks from Southern

8:38

Europe or Eastern Europe or wherever, they're

8:40

coming from Central and South

8:42

America as well as other parts

8:45

of the world. And I think actually

8:48

that is

8:50

a strength of the United States. And

8:52

I am very disappointed that it's

8:54

become such a political football,

8:57

because I think we thrive

8:59

on immigration and

9:03

and and welcoming new workers

9:05

in the industry. So I

9:07

think that's you're going to see that that's going

9:09

to be true everywhere, that the blue collar workers

9:13

are going to be I

9:15

mean, one of the reasons actually that the job projections

9:18

are doing so well is because

9:21

of the new of the surge

9:23

of immigrant labor.

9:25

But the diversity we're witnessing in this

9:28

toolboat generation is also being

9:30

felt in white collar and service

9:32

industries as well, where jobs

9:34

are no longer divided among genders

9:37

and ethnicities the way they once were,

9:40

and as our workforce becomes more

9:42

reflective of the community it's built

9:44

from, that will only make

9:47

our economy more resilient and

9:49

more adaptable to whatever challenges

9:51

come our way. When

9:54

we come back from the break, we'll

9:56

hear how mark erlik went from the job

9:58

site to the ivy.

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10:38

We're back with Mark Irlick, who, aside

10:40

from having his finger on the economic pulse,

10:43

is the perfect person to lead off our pivot

10:45

focus season of On the Job, because

10:48

it turns out that Mark has quite the

10:50

pivot story of his own, because

10:52

long before he was walking those hallowed

10:55

halls of Harvard, he was swinging

10:57

a hammer on a job site as a

10:59

master car carpenter.

11:01

I'm a carpenter by trade. I

11:04

was a member of the Carver's Union.

11:06

I still am for over fifty years.

11:09

I worked as an apprentice, the journeym and a foreman

11:11

and superintendent. But I

11:13

very much valued my time

11:16

in the field.

11:17

Was there one area of expertise you had

11:19

as a carpenter.

11:20

No.

11:20

I tried to be a generalist.

11:22

I did concrete forms, I did drywall,

11:24

I did framing, I did finished

11:27

work mostly, and when I had the

11:29

opportunity be superintendent, I had to learn about,

11:32

you know, the other trades as well.

11:34

Mark hat a beautiful analogy for his time

11:36

as a superintendent in which he was

11:38

responsible for all these different trades,

11:40

each doing their own thing, yet

11:43

all leading towards the same end goal.

11:45

At its best, and it wasn't always

11:47

at its best, but at his best it was like being a

11:49

conductor of a symphony when you had

11:51

got all the different trades to kind.

11:53

Of work together to create this.

11:55

You know, someone's vision in their head of

11:58

an architect, and you actually made it.

12:01

I think it's a very exciting process.

12:03

And like anyone who spent enough time on our

12:05

job site, Mark isn't short

12:08

on stories.

12:09

So we got we got there on the on

12:12

the first day and I said, well,

12:14

w there's the plans and he said, well, we don't really

12:17

actually have the plans. And

12:19

I said, well, what do you mean. He says, I just fired the architect.

12:22

So I said, well, how are we going to build this thing? And

12:25

he says, well, we have the

12:27

initial plans that we did and we'll just work it

12:29

out now. This was the ended

12:32

up being the most expensive by square foot

12:34

restaurant in Boston at the time,

12:37

and the whole thing was done with

12:42

this guy would travel on weekends to auctions

12:45

in India and Turkey and he would buy

12:48

bars and things and he would bring him

12:50

back and and he had a storage

12:52

facility in Boston and he would

12:54

bring at that time, Polaroid

12:56

pictures and he would show me, sayd where are

12:58

we going to put this? And I said,

13:00

well, that won't fit because we've already

13:02

got the walls. And he said, I tear down the walls.

13:05

So it was a great deal of

13:07

fun. It was a little ridiculous. It

13:09

was way more expensive than it needed to be.

13:11

For the last twelve years of Mark's career,

13:14

he became the head of the entire New England

13:16

Carpenters Union.

13:18

I got a PhD in constructionology

13:21

with all those experiences and

13:25

the exposure to the issues

13:27

of real estate development politics,

13:30

and because it's really what happens

13:32

with construction is kind of I think, the essence

13:34

of what a community thinks about itself,

13:36

how it's going to grow, how it's going to develop.

13:39

But when Mark reached retirement age,

13:41

he didn't just hang up his hard helmet and pick

13:43

up the golf clubs. Even after

13:45

a fifty year career, Mark

13:47

was still excited about the construction industry

13:50

and he had a lot of knowledge that he wanted to

13:52

share with others, and there

13:55

were some very smart folks who

13:57

were more than willing to listen.

13:59

I retired some years ago,

14:01

sort of semi retired.

14:02

I guess.

14:03

And now I am a fellow

14:05

at the Center for Labor and adjust

14:08

Economy at Harvard Law School,

14:11

and I use that platform

14:13

to teach about labor

14:15

and politics and labor history and

14:17

also to write. I've written

14:19

three books and numerous

14:22

op eds articles on

14:24

the topics of labor, politics, history,

14:27

et cetera.

14:28

And Well, Mark didn't personally work on

14:30

the buildings at Harvard, he knows

14:32

a lot of the tradesmen and women who

14:34

did. Yeah, do you ever find yourself

14:37

at Harvard Law just, you know, looking

14:39

at joinery or something like that, just

14:41

drifting off.

14:43

Honestly, I do most of my work from home.

14:46

I write, and I see a lot of it as

14:48

remote. So, but you know, when I go there, the

14:51

Harvard Law School is has

14:54

quite the beautiful buildings, and almost

14:57

all of those buildings were built by my friends

15:00

in the trades.

15:00

Uh.

15:01

And I always admire the Uh.

15:05

It's it's nice to be there to be

15:07

teaching in a context of

15:10

an environment that my colleagues

15:12

and friends built.

15:14

Uh. And so that sort of brings it together.

15:17

But there are more than enough buildings all

15:19

around Boston that Mark did get

15:21

to work on.

15:22

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean I think everybody

15:24

who is a construction worker will

15:27

go by, We'll drive around with their kids and say,

15:29

you know, daddy worked on that or mommy worked

15:31

on this, and it's it's a standard

15:33

item. Uh, you know, sort

15:35

of a joke but also a

15:38

but a meaningful joke that people

15:41

again, you know, I think that's part of the satisfaction

15:44

of the work is that you can see

15:46

that, you can point to to a structure that

15:48

you helped create, and

15:51

that's that's

15:54

not a small thing.

15:55

And if Mark Rlick's predictions of

15:57

a resilient economy that continues

16:00

a long hold true, and this

16:02

tool belt generation continues

16:04

to turn to the trades, hopefully

16:07

in a few years we'll have a lot more

16:09

men and women driving their children around

16:12

wherever it is they live in this country and

16:15

pointing to a building, a bridge,

16:17

or even an Ivy League school and

16:19

saying, you see that, kids,

16:22

I built that for on

16:24

the job. I'm Avery Thompson