0:06

This is on the Job, a podcast

0:08

about finding your life's work. On the

0:10

job, is brought to you by Express Employment

0:12

Professionals. This season, we're

0:15

bringing you stories of folks following their passion

0:17

to carve their own career path. For

0:21

this episode, we look at a pretty non traditional

0:23

career path, being a private investigator.

0:27

It's a complicated line of work that comes

0:29

with a lot of assumptions being made about it and

0:31

maybe something a lot of people don't feel like they're

0:33

cut out foreign paper. But sometimes

0:35

doing a job is less about your hard

0:38

qualifications and more about

0:40

the bigger ideas that drive you. Now

0:49

that you know that we're talking to a real p

0:51

I today, you probably have some idea

0:54

in your head of what that means. So let's

0:56

get that out of the way. Okay, So what

0:58

do people say to you when they

1:01

hear you're a p I. The first

1:03

thing is that everyone goes, wow,

1:05

that must be exciting. Well, I've

1:08

been doing this for almost a half

1:10

a century, and I don't think

1:12

exciting is the word that I would use anymore.

1:14

Maybe at one time, but not anymore.

1:17

This is Kitty Kitty Haley.

1:19

I am a professional investigator, sometimes

1:22

called a p I or a private investigator,

1:24

and I am old enough to know better. Kitty

1:28

works and lives in Philadelphia. She's got

1:30

fiery red hair, she's put together, kind

1:32

of looks like she might be a kindergarten teacher. You

1:35

wouldn't look at her and think she's a

1:37

p I, which is also what people say

1:39

to her when they find out what she does. And then

1:41

they start to tell me how they would be a

1:43

good investigator. And they tell me

1:45

either how they located

1:48

their long lost second

1:50

cousin or they found

1:52

their husband cheating, and they watch all

1:54

the cops shows on TV. The

1:56

thing is, Kitty is pretty much the opposite

1:59

of what you'd see on a cop show. She's

2:01

been an investigator in many forms, but currently

2:05

most of what she does is investigate the

2:07

police in cases where someone is wrongfully

2:09

convicted or an officer abuses

2:11

their authority. So no, I'm not a

2:13

police investigator. All right. So

2:16

you've done a lot of different things in your career, but

2:18

boiled down, what is it that

2:21

you do. I gather

2:23

information, period,

2:26

That's what I do. I don't censor

2:28

it, I don't editorialize

2:31

it. I am a fact finder.

2:36

However, the facts that I find

2:38

are about some very

2:41

interesting and unusual situations.

2:45

Right now, Kitty is a criminal investigator,

2:47

but for a while she was what was called a full

2:49

service investigator, which means she did

2:52

a little bit of everything, domestic people,

2:54

cheating, um, locating missing

2:56

people. Now she

2:58

does civil rights work, investigating cases

3:01

similar to George Floyd's where there's

3:03

been an incident with the police. My other

3:05

clients are incarcerated and

3:08

they may not be guilty. So

3:10

it's an interesting mixture of

3:12

work, but primarily I do civil rights

3:14

and post conviction work. Well,

3:17

I was asking Kitty questions. I was surprised

3:19

by how much goes into being a p

3:22

I that you'd never know without talking to

3:24

one. But some of the time, just like

3:26

on TV, Katy ends up in a

3:28

courtroom in front of a jury, presenting

3:30

the facts and making her case. Do you

3:32

like picking a courtroom? Love it?

3:35

It's the best time because I think we're

3:37

all different people at different times. I'm

3:39

not pretending, but I am performing.

3:42

I'm performing the Kitty Hailey who is the

3:44

investigator? I mean sometimes

3:46

on my Grandma and you know, I sit on

3:49

the floor with a couple of grandkids and

3:51

I play games and I made

3:53

them cookies and do all the things that grandma's

3:56

do, But when I'm in a courtroom,

3:59

I have control. Long

4:05

before she was dominating courtrooms and swaying

4:07

juries, young Kitty Haley grew up

4:10

a pretty straight laced, brainy kid. I

4:12

was a young geek. I read a lot of

4:14

books. I mean, Nancy Drew was my

4:16

best friend for the longest time, so maybe

4:18

that was part of it. I don't know. She

4:21

had a brother and a sister. They were a tight family

4:23

unit, had dinner every night with mom and Dad were

4:26

Jewish, so we went to synagogue every Friday

4:28

night together. I don't think any

4:30

of us ever got in trouble once in our

4:32

entire lives. Even so, growing

4:35

up in a non Jewish neighborhood, she

4:37

saw a lot of prejudice against her family.

4:39

There were places she couldn't go, things she couldn't

4:41

do. So I knew what it was like to

4:43

be an outcast. I knew what it was like to have an

4:46

equity. And I think if

4:48

I had not been an investigator, I

4:50

probably would have end up in some sort of social

4:52

work at some point in time, because the inequities

4:54

of the world are so great and I can't stand

4:56

a look at them. I need to be a part of

4:59

the solution, not accorded the

5:01

problem. In high school, she was great

5:03

at art, so she went to school for it, and

5:05

afterwards she got a job teaching art at a high

5:07

school in Camden, New Jersey. It

5:09

was a predominantly black school during the Civil

5:12

Rights movement, and Kitty was asked

5:14

to leave the school system after being

5:16

blamed for causing an uprising against

5:18

the school system. I didn't I

5:21

didn't stop it. Apparently,

5:23

she just helped the students with their manifesto.

5:25

Yeah, I think that was my problem. I put the help them

5:27

to put them anifescially together. And the problem

5:30

was that I did during school time, during on

5:32

school copying machines. So yeah,

5:34

I shouldn't have done that maybe.

5:37

Unsurprisingly, this is when she had encountered

5:39

with a police captain who ended up becoming

5:42

her husband. He was branching off from

5:44

the force to start his own p I firm, and

5:46

she started to help out while she got another

5:48

teaching job at Rutgers and

5:50

I worked as a teacher counselor for a couple

5:52

of years, doing investigative work part

5:54

time, and then eventually just transitioned over because

5:57

it's what I really wanted to do. So

5:59

that's only four years old. Kitty Haley was

6:01

a p I, but it definitely

6:03

wasn't glamorous, you

6:05

know, we were we have a small agency initially,

6:08

and it was really it was

6:11

really difficult because it was just my

6:13

husband enough. They took whatever work

6:15

they could get, which was mostly domestic work.

6:17

People cheating, abuse cases, custody

6:20

issues, families stealing from each other,

6:22

messy stuff. My kids went to college

6:24

because I did domestic work. I mean,

6:26

God was cheating people. It was wonderful.

6:29

Infidelity pays the bills. Yeah, absolutely,

6:32

the stereotypical stuff people think of when you're a

6:34

p I, sneaking around, following

6:36

people, looking in their windows to see when the light

6:39

goes on or off. Yeah, I've done all that stuff.

6:41

I sat on surveillance for days

6:43

and nights and weeks and um

6:45

I used to bring my kids on surveillance when

6:47

they were little. Sometimes they'd be

6:49

so busy that her husband would be working

6:52

right through bedtime when Kitty had to

6:54

go do her surveillance work. So she

6:56

threw the kids in the back of the car with a blanket

6:58

and I go out. We can all stood on surveillance

7:01

together. I read the books. I tell them stories

7:03

as we were driving, you know, hook

7:06

them in with seatbelts and give them things to play

7:08

with, and every once in a while I go, Okay, guys,

7:10

hang on, mom's gotta go. You

7:13

did what we had to do. We'll

7:19

get back to our story in a second. First,

7:22

a word from Express Employment Professionals.

7:25

A strong work ethic takes

7:27

pride in a job well done. This

7:29

is you. But to get an honest

7:31

day's work, you need a callback. You

7:34

need a job. Express

7:36

Employment Professionals can help. We'll

7:39

connect you to the right company. We're

7:41

committed to your success and never

7:44

charge a fee to find you a job. Express

7:46

Nose Jobs. Get to know Express

7:49

find your location at express pros

7:51

dot com or on the Express Jobs

7:53

app. Now

7:56

back to on the job. Despite

7:59

the dick life of starting a p I firm,

8:02

Kitty was hooked. I loved the

8:04

excitement, the adventure, and

8:06

it was creative in its own way. Also,

8:09

having a background in art made me capable

8:11

of observing things that other people

8:13

didn't see. She picked up

8:15

on details. She could recreate rooms

8:18

that she was invited into during theft investigations,

8:21

and a client might be able to point out the

8:23

thing that they said was stolen from them.

8:25

This is one of the many skills that's helped

8:27

Kitty stay in the game as long as she has. What

8:30

makes someone good at what you do? Wow,

8:33

I always tell people who are interested

8:35

in my field, they have to be able

8:37

to do several things really well. They

8:39

have to be able to think. You

8:41

have to be able to think and analyze. You have to be able

8:44

to observe and put your

8:46

own personal prejudices out of the way

8:48

while you're observing what happened or

8:50

what the evidences. She says,

8:52

you also have to know a lot about the law

8:55

and how the court system works, so that you

8:57

know what constitutes evidence. Evidence

8:59

is really important because everything you

9:01

do has to be admissible in a

9:03

court of law, or you can't

9:06

do it. One of the most overlook skills,

9:08

she says, writing You've got to be able

9:10

to put together a good report. If

9:12

you can't write what

9:14

you did to explain it to an attorney,

9:17

then you might as well never have done the

9:19

work. Basically, you might do

9:21

seventy hours worth of surveillance

9:23

and finding information, computer research

9:26

and interviewing people, and all you can give

9:28

to an attorney is a five page report.

9:31

So it's like a master class in

9:33

essay writing. Sounds like there's a lot of skills

9:36

they don't tell you about on law and order s Vu. Yes,

9:38

so you have to be able to deal with people, communicate

9:41

well, and know how

9:43

to build so that you can keep your job. That's

9:46

the whole thing. It's a business. People

9:48

forget that. They think this is oh, this is

9:50

great, but you're if you're working for yourself,

9:53

you've got to do all of that or good

9:55

work for somebody else, which you can

9:57

do. Kitty says. There are so many respects

10:00

of the work. You can always try it all out and

10:02

figure out what you'd like to specialize in. Especially

10:05

in the age of social media. You could be

10:07

a techie, you could work online investigations.

10:10

There's a ton of different ways to go about it. That's

10:12

not what I'd like to do. It's

10:14

not my comfort zone. Put me in front

10:16

of somebody and I will interview them until I

10:19

get every list bit of information out of

10:21

them, and that I do well, Kitty

10:29

says. In the beginning, she was saying yes to any

10:31

job that came her way. She had to. That

10:33

can get you in trouble. There

10:35

was a nice couple who came to see

10:38

us. They had just come from a funeral,

10:40

actually, and so they were well dressed,

10:43

and she wanted us to find

10:45

her missing children. The

10:48

woman's ex husband had taken the kids.

10:50

It's not uncommon in these cases, so Katie

10:53

got involved, only to later find out that

10:55

without their nice clothing, they were members

10:57

of the Hell's Angels who were involved in a dispute

11:00

with a rival gang. We were right

11:02

in the middle of it, and I was stupid. I

11:04

didn't know anything about this. It was my first

11:06

introduction to anything criminal. I

11:08

only learned about it when I left

11:10

their house and four big

11:12

black SUVs pulled me off to

11:14

the side of the road and four people

11:17

identify themselves as the FBI

11:19

and wanted to know what I was doing in the house.

11:22

That was not something that a twenty four

11:24

year old should have to go through. It

11:27

was scary. Do they make you second

11:29

guess? Oh my god, like, what am I doing? No,

11:31

it may be learned to be more careful about

11:34

who my clients are, at least to know what

11:37

was really expected of me. Because

11:39

my clients right now, some

11:41

of them are guilty as hell. You know,

11:44

some of them are innocent, but you

11:46

don't know until you investigate it, so I need

11:48

to. I've learned to investigate my clients

11:50

as well as to investigate what they want

11:52

me to investigate. Do

11:54

you ever do jobs

11:58

for people that you

12:00

kind of don't feel comfortable doing. Yeah,

12:03

but I'm not them. I'm

12:06

still doing my job. So

12:08

take any case where there's a prosecutor

12:11

and a defendant. Whether she's hired by

12:13

the defense or the prosecution, her

12:15

job doesn't change. So if

12:17

there was a bullet, we're going to find a bullet. If

12:20

you have a witness who says she saw X, Y

12:22

and Z, both investigators going to

12:24

find X, Y and Z. The prosecution

12:27

investigator and the defense investigator

12:29

part both going to find

12:31

the same information because the

12:33

facts don't change. I'm

12:36

not supporting a person, I'm

12:38

finding out facts.

12:41

Still, she knows that what she does has

12:43

a huge impact on people's lives. When

12:45

I ask if she's okay with that, she tells

12:48

me about a case where a guy called

12:50

Kitty saying he suspected his wife

12:52

was cheating on him every day when he went to work.

12:54

He wanted her to find out. It turns out his

12:57

wife was with the neighbor next door. Kitty

12:59

had the evidence and testified in their court

13:01

hearing. The following morning, I'm

13:04

in my office and I get a phone

13:06

call and it's the woman who

13:08

I testified against, and

13:10

she says to me, how can

13:12

you sleep with yourself doing the ugly

13:15

work that you do, spying on

13:17

people peering in windows?

13:19

How do you sleep with yourself? And

13:21

I remember saying to her, I

13:24

don't. I don't sleep

13:27

with myself. I speak with my husband. You,

13:29

on the out of hand, sleep with somebody else's,

13:31

says them. So

13:35

no, I'm not the people I'm

13:37

working for or against. I'm

13:39

still me with my own ethics and my

13:41

own morals. But if in

13:44

the process I

13:46

help somebody make a life decision that

13:48

will change the course of their life, or

13:50

allow them to make an informed

13:53

decision, then I've done a good job. Kitty

13:58

has a deep respect for impact her work

14:00

has, good or bad, which is why

14:03

over the last many years she has become

14:05

a nationally recognized investigative

14:07

ethicist. She literally wrote

14:09

the book on ethical standards for being

14:11

an investigator, and she tours the

14:13

country giving lectures on how to

14:15

do this job in a responsible way.

14:17

Recently, she was doing a session with a pretty elite

14:20

group of investigators, and

14:22

somebody asked me the question, how

14:24

do you show empathy? And

14:27

it just blew me for a loop, and

14:29

I said, I don't

14:32

I feel it. Being

14:35

a p I sounds like a cool job, and

14:37

Kitty says it is. But on the flip side,

14:39

there are times when you are talking to a

14:41

person on the worst day of their life,

14:44

people who have lost a loved one or were a victim

14:46

of a crime, people scared for

14:48

their life, And if you don't appreciate that,

14:51

then maybe you shouldn't be doing this job. You've

14:53

got to understand that everyone has been traumatized

14:56

in some way, and

14:58

I'm w fitness to their

15:00

horror and I need to

15:03

record it. I need to be

15:05

able to elicit the information from them

15:08

so that I can take their statements so that

15:10

when I present it in court it

15:12

has a meaning and gravitas. And

15:15

that's that comes from respect. Talking

15:23

with Kitty reminded me of something

15:26

pretty amazing. I heard the famous therapist

15:28

and author Esther Perel say on a podcast

15:30

once when she was talking about our relationship

15:33

to our jobs. She said, next

15:35

time you're at dinner with new friends or at a party

15:38

and you're about to ask the routine question what

15:40

do you do for a living? Instead ask

15:42

what would you do if you weren't doing the job

15:45

you do? Now. That's

15:48

always stuck with me because

15:51

I feel like so many of us right off what

15:53

we can do for because we don't

15:55

have the education for it, or we didn't grow

15:58

up around it, or we don't look the are

16:00

But sometimes what qualifies you for a

16:02

job is your deepest beliefs,

16:05

the thing that gets you up in the morning. Kitty

16:08

still looks like a high school art teacher, but

16:10

her desire led her to being one

16:13

of the most respected investigators in

16:15

her industry. That desire she had

16:17

as a young nerdy outcast to be

16:19

part of the solution rather than the problem.

16:22

I asked her if she still felt that way about her work.

16:26

Oh, my, every day.

16:29

You know, we work

16:31

so hard on the case and don't always see the

16:33

end of it. Sometimes all

16:35

the information goes to an attorney

16:38

and you never know what happened. Wow,

16:42

I didn't even think of that. That's some very

16:44

delayed satisfaction, if

16:46

any at all. Yeah. Okay,

16:49

So I worked with a

16:52

gentleman from Philadelphia. I could

16:54

say his name because he is now free.

16:56

It's jim Dennis. He was wrongfully

16:59

incarcerated almost

17:01

twenty years ago. Jimmy

17:03

Dennis is an R and B musician in Philadelphia,

17:06

and when he was twenty one, he was wrongfully convicted

17:08

of our murder. No physical evidence,

17:10

no weapon, no DNA, and he was put

17:13

on death row. Kitty worked on his case,

17:15

and eighteen years later I

17:18

was sitting in a coffee shop and

17:20

I got a telephone call and a

17:22

voice said, Mrs Kitty, I just want

17:24

to thank you, and I said, who is this?

17:26

He said, this is Jimmy Dennis. I'm

17:29

on my way home from prison. And

17:33

I said in that coffee shop and cried like

17:35

a baby. It

17:43

was so wonderful to know that

17:45

work I had done for eighteen years

17:48

had finally resulted in someone going

17:50

home to a family, a baby

17:52

he had never held, a child he had not

17:55

seen. You know, it was somebody

17:57

whose life was able to be not

18:00

for hole again, but at least she was able

18:02

to live a life outside of the

18:05

four walls of an eight by ten, which

18:07

he was in for eighteen years. You

18:10

know that was humbling. So

18:15

yeah, I love what I do. It's

18:18

not easy. It's hard work.

18:21

It's long hours, and it's so

18:23

freaking satisfying. It's great, and

18:26

I'm going to do it until i can't stand up anymore.

18:38

For On the Job, I'm Modus Gray. To

18:41

learn more about Kitty and her work, go to Kitty

18:43

Haley dot com.

18:51

Thanks for listening to On the Job, brought

18:53

to you by Express Employment Professionals. The

18:56

season of On the Job is produced by Audiation.

18:59

The episodes were written and produced by me

19:01

Otis Gray. Our executive producer

19:03

is Sandy Smallens. The show is mixed

19:05

by Matt Noble for Audiation Studios

19:07

at the Loft in Bronxville, New York. Music

19:10

by Blue Dot Sessions. Find

19:12

us on I Heart Radio and Apple Podcasts.

19:16

If you liked what you heard, please consider rating

19:18

and reviewing the show on Apple Podcasts

19:20

or wherever you listen. We'll

19:22

see you next time. For more inspiring stories

19:24

about discovering your life's work. Audiation