0:00

i'm brooke gladstone in this week you'll hear

0:02

about the court case that almost

0:04

set the course for reproductive

0:07

rights it started with an

0:09

air force captain who's

0:10

pregnant the regulation said if

0:12

you're pregnant you cannot be active duty

0:14

if you have a child, you cannot

0:16

be active duty mother is on

0:19

my father's were deemed unfit

0:21

to serve no way no

0:23

way are they going do truck is

0:25

not going to fall for the

0:27

[unk] rak it would have been

0:30

a my choice for the first

0:32

reproductive freedom a home

0:34

before the us supreme

0:37

court wise judicious man would be helping

0:39

women make good decisions about what

0:41

was best for them the republican controlled

0:43

supreme court has achieved or dark

0:46

extreme , of rhythm

0:48

away woman's woman's to make

0:51

their own a project of health decisions

0:54

from susan struck turbo the way

0:56

you didn't beyond after this

1:00

wnycstudios is supported

1:02

by grubhub sometimes, get into

1:04

a so-called convenience store isn't

1:06

actually very convenient but

1:08

now grubhub delivers from local, convenience stores,

1:10

where they were in the the market for snacks

1:12

paper towels or drinks grubhub, delivers

1:14

them right from the convenience store to your door the

1:17

new york public school system has been called

1:19

the most racially segregated in the country,

1:21

but a high school girls volleyball team

1:23

is redefining what it means to play together

1:25

listen to keeping score a special

1:27

series on the united states of anxiety however

1:30

you

1:37

n y c studios

1:40

from w n y c in new york

1:42

this is on the media this week

1:45

the supreme court handed down

1:47

several big decisions

1:50

we began to live with that us supreme

1:52

court ruling saying that private

1:54

religious schools can not be excluded

1:57

from a program that pays tuition for students

1:59

in more

2:00

the rural areas of our state supreme

2:02

court has rejected a restricted

2:04

new york state law that limited he can

2:06

carry a concealed weapon six

2:08

three decision bought some are violated

2:10

the com

2:12

today a ruling by the united states supreme court

2:14

could change the way we think of miranda

2:16

rights under the swirling a suspect

2:18

who wasn't warned of their right to remain

2:20

silent may not be able to go and

2:22

sue the arresting officer for damages

2:24

but the decision most stunning even

2:27

though he knew it was coming ever since the draft

2:29

decision was leaked last month with

2:31

this

2:32

whispering co has overturned roe

2:34

versus wade mississippi

2:37

that has that huge moment for

2:39

the united states the supreme court the united

2:41

states has overturned

2:43

roe versus wade the abortion

2:45

rights ruling today the republican

2:48

controlled supreme court said see their dark

2:50

extreme goal of them

2:52

were woman's night to make their own

2:55

pet project and health decisions so

2:57

the immediate effect of this will be to uphold

2:59

the mississippi law that would ban abortion

3:01

after fifteen weeks but this

3:03

also now means that the and of roughly

3:06

half the country abortion is

3:08

as of now or soon will

3:10

be illegal the

3:12

three justices in minority

3:14

stephen briar sonia sotomayor

3:17

and elena kagan wrote close

3:19

with sorrow for this court

3:22

but more for the many millions of american

3:24

women we have today lost a fundamental

3:27

com the to snow protection we

3:29

descend

3:32

the row dead now at almost

3:34

fifty had turbulent life

3:36

from its conception

3:38

read names and landmark ruling the

3:40

supreme court today legalized

3:43

abortion to raise the

3:45

dignity woman and , their

3:47

freedom of choice in the city city

3:49

extraordinary is and i

3:51

think that january twenty second

3:53

nineteen seventy to be historic that the

4:01

mary that money would never

4:03

exp

4:05

twenty years ago abortion

4:07

may have seemed the easy way

4:09

out for society

4:12

reeling from the collapse of

4:14

a moral consensus news today

4:16

the supreme court says says

4:18

roe v wade was still alive is

4:21

substantially was pretty broken way to

4:23

some very bad decision murmur decision

4:25

think it was i think decision as mike

4:27

pence has said for decades

4:29

i want to put ravi weighed

4:32

on the ash heap of history in this

4:34

is something i think half an hour

4:40

what a great organizing to

4:42

it is you have name you have similar

4:44

well we ways you can aim is that

4:46

the late justice ruth bader ginsburg

4:49

marking the fortieth anniversary of

4:51

the ruling at the university the

4:53

cargo and twenty thirteen it

4:55

was agreed organizing tool

4:57

she said said the anti abortion

5:00

that meant how often has well

5:03

well we wayne in the center

5:05

and the opposite that

5:07

was nice and seven that the court had given

5:10

the opponents the

5:13

access to voices a to have

5:15

it to a map relentlessly the

5:17

anti abortion movement existed

5:19

before nineteen seventy three said

5:21

ginsburg's but soon it was

5:23

a laser focused around single

5:25

goal overturning this

5:28

one supreme court case and

5:30

creating a post row america

5:32

well as seem to still have the momentum

5:35

which was on the side changed since

5:38

then momentum has been on the other side

5:40

the cases it will get now

5:42

on a voice and all that was listen

5:44

on access to voices and

5:47

not bath expensive the

5:49

rights of the woman

5:51

roe v wade framed the

5:53

discussion about abortion for nearly

5:55

half a century and fact

5:58

row has been elitist

6:00

then about reproductive rights

6:02

the stand in for women's rights smoker

6:04

in an emblem of the culture

6:07

wars a symbol and our

6:09

fracture politics

6:10

there was another a reproductive

6:12

choice case before the court that

6:14

term just as good bird

6:16

believe that we'd missed something crucial

6:19

what what should we have talked about

6:21

in stand and

6:23

in post row were old what

6:26

we talk about now

6:29

the

6:30

thousand nine team then odium

6:32

producer a lot of casanova burgess

6:34

and jessica glenn's that health

6:36

reporter for the guardian won't looking

6:38

for the story justice ginsburg

6:40

said we'd all midst of lana

6:42

sensitive

6:43

let's start this our with an alternate history

6:46

a road not taken captain season

6:48

stress against the secretary of defense

6:51

it would have been have my choice

6:53

for the first reproductive

6:55

freedom case come before the

6:58

us supreme court it's an obscure

7:00

one but ginsburg disgusted often

7:02

even bringing it up during her confirmation hearing

7:04

and nineteen ninety three she became

7:06

pregnant

7:07

while he was serving in the

7:09

airforce in vietnam

7:12

pregnancy in those days

7:15

was a mandatory route for

7:17

decides i ,

7:20

how could you be

7:22

ready for worldwide duty if you have

7:24

the daycare used to the woman don't

7:26

you know better eating long time

7:29

ago grass

7:30

jessica in i met captain susan struck

7:32

now retired lieutenant colonel struck in

7:34

sierra vista arizona the web

7:36

forty minutes from here near the us

7:38

mexico border on forty acres with

7:40

horse named thunder for dogs for

7:43

cats she suggested we do the

7:45

interview outside at veterans memorial

7:47

park a patch of green flanked by

7:49

two barclays he managed to have

7:52

sex i belong to the twelve

7:54

such as fighter wing association

7:56

they're all vietnam veterans she

7:58

grew up in a roman catholic family and louisville

8:01

kentucky there was high school freshman

8:03

when she decided she wanted join the military

8:05

her way of avoiding domestic

8:07

i was not interested in starting

8:10

family getting married during any

8:12

that kind of of stuff

8:14

that young catholic girls did that in the day

8:16

the she studied nursing in college join

8:19

the airforce and ended up at day this

8:21

month and base in sunny tucson and

8:23

the late sixties she fell in love

8:25

the landscape learned how to drive got

8:27

a camaro was her first time

8:29

away from home

8:30

hours twenty three year old virgin and

8:34

lost my virginity like

8:36

this and said i believe

8:38

in god i'm scared so i have my

8:40

own feelings i know where i

8:42

am in i'm not gonna go to concession

8:45

because it means that you're not going to

8:47

miss of since anymore

8:48

the couple years on the airforce asked

8:51

her where she liked to serve

8:52

i put in for thailand is my first

8:55

choice of put in for vietnam is a second

8:57

choice even knowing

8:59

that the

9:00

when he , that

9:02

he wasn't with at that time it's

9:05

what the military does nurses

9:08

are needed anywhere

9:10

when spring day and nineteen seventy at base

9:12

in phuket vietnam she began to

9:14

feel dizzy

9:15

i sit down on ross and i'm sitting

9:17

there in one hit get i get dizzy

9:20

i don't know and edges and then

9:22

this new i just

9:27

it and run out of pills anyway they

9:30

were not available on

9:34

where did you think about as the various possibilities

9:38

did you consider abortion an option

9:40

said that when i was so into care act

9:42

because figured the soon as better an

9:45

abortion the be it but i would have to go

9:47

someplace like japan to do it nobody

9:50

there could do it because that would be breaking

9:52

the regulation that even if i had abortion

9:54

in vietnam in was active duty

9:56

as to be disturbed because usa

9:59

it has

10:00

then i went to bed when nine assists more

10:02

on go ask or dispensary commander

10:05

is so i could have a

10:07

trip to to han and was gonna

10:09

ask him that night i had dream and

10:13

that dream was my

10:16

he is stopping the action an

10:19

inner city or my mommy and

10:21

i'll i'll see you soon that

10:25

type of the dream and i just woke up

10:27

at as set up and businesses

10:30

no way no way are they going do

10:32

this to strap susan

10:35

, is not going to fall for this call

10:38

i knew it was going to the

10:40

be point because already knew that the regulation

10:42

said if you're pregnant you cannot be active

10:45

duty if you have a wow you

10:47

cannot be active duty

10:48

so drug kept her pregnancy secret

10:50

on the base she started writing letters to

10:52

her siblings asking if they would adopt her baby

10:56

care me up as i never knew what happened with

10:59

it would break my heart more

11:01

so than it did anyway if

11:03

anyway if not able to have any candidate in

11:06

with her in her life and not give

11:08

her love and not let her know that her

11:11

real mother love her very

11:13

very much two friends married

11:15

couple were the husband was also in the airforce

11:17

finally said yes they adopt

11:20

baby this is what i needed to do

11:23

or , have been a very very unhappy

11:25

woman woman i had been sent

11:27

home in and lox the military

11:29

and so it's

11:32

going to work my

11:34

way cause i couldn't control the other crap

11:36

with military regulations but

11:39

everything else military could control struck

11:41

recognize this crossroads between motherhood

11:43

and career motherhood mother had enjoyed

11:45

working for real estate agency and company

11:48

was going to help her get realtor's license

11:51

earnest the shooting it do then in here

11:53

we're talking about the forties and fifties

11:56

and women just didn't work if they

11:58

were pregnant or had kids expected

12:00

to be home sixteen supper

12:03

drug had been transferred from small sue cat base

12:05

to camera on base in vietnam on south

12:07

china sea of is larger hospital

12:10

closer to combat and so month after

12:12

month she altered her uniform patients

12:15

made lewd jokes there ,

12:17

rumors and then one day the chief

12:19

nurses her are you pregnant could

12:21

last could pregnant are

12:24

yours is seven and half months she

12:26

knew pregnancy meant automatic discharged from

12:28

the military so she went her

12:30

jag officer a legal advisor on base

12:32

who connected her with a seal you

12:34

he said well how far are you

12:37

really planning to take

12:39

susan i

12:41

, i'll take it to the supreme court

12:43

if i have to coming

12:45

up in unison struck

12:48

gets a lawyer this is on the

12:50

media

13:01

actually studios is supported

13:03

by grubhub sometimes getting to a

13:05

so called convenient store isnt actually

13:07

very convenient that now grub

13:09

hub rivers from local convenience stores

13:11

whether you're in the market for snacks paper

13:13

towels or drinks grub hub delivers them

13:15

right from the convenience store to your door it's

13:18

delivery it's convenience it's delivery

13:20

ants or just college grub

13:23

hub

13:26

this week on new yorker radio hour were joined

13:28

by alan alda alda talks

13:30

about growing up around burlesque shows

13:32

his life his an actor science feminism

13:35

how he took up podcasting in

13:37

his eighties alan alda on new

13:39

yorker radio hour from w n y c

13:41

studios listen get

13:44

your

13:53

in december twenty twenty president trump

13:55

center tweet big protest in d

13:57

c and january six zero

14:00

the there will be wild weeks

14:02

later thousand stormed the capital

14:05

the most much of the country with to big

14:07

questions how did we get

14:09

here the and what

14:11

happens now

14:12

follow will be wilde wherever you get your podcasts

14:15

or listen early and ad free by subscribing

14:17

to wonder he plus an apple podcasts

14:19

or the laundry yeah

14:22

this isn't media on birth gladstone

14:25

we've been exploring and unknown

14:27

history and nation's abortion

14:29

arguments from time before

14:31

role v wade that offers

14:33

us a new ways to see this old

14:35

issue ruth bader ginsburg

14:37

said she would have preferred to see the

14:39

court focus not on row but

14:42

i'm a different case one that had

14:44

come up and that same term the

14:46

case brought by air force nurse

14:48

says and strength here's the

14:50

guardians jessica glenn sir harry

14:52

truman signed an executive order and nineteen

14:55

fifty when saying that servicewomen

14:57

could not be mother's whether by birth

14:59

or adoption or any other way pregnancy

15:02

meant automatic discerns once

15:04

the military discovered captain susan struck

15:06

was pregnant her supervisors

15:08

were unmoved by her plea to give up her

15:10

baby for adoption take short leave

15:12

to recover and then returned to her job

15:15

she was ordered to leave cameron base the

15:17

next morning and go back to base

15:19

on west coast we having my going

15:21

away party all that i remembered that i

15:23

had promised myself i would write camera on days

15:25

that's

15:25

army officers club movie

15:27

screen before

15:29

last month before she had arrived

15:31

at the base after hours in transit until

15:33

there is no food available she hated

15:35

the place right away i remember

15:37

did bad ten o'clock night past curfew

15:40

and , i asked friend mess about

15:43

with aca to do something with at do something says

15:45

was as cake day as have a we need

15:47

some red paint and she showed us the photograph

15:49

there was crb sucks

15:52

an act of defiance spelled out in huge

15:54

red letters back in states

15:56

there was more to come as

15:58

a hero air force

16:00

the a nurse unmarried expects

16:02

a baby within few days there

16:04

were voices trying discharge her

16:06

but she has blocked and co whether

16:09

we can issue figures the be the first

16:11

officer ever to the air force's knowledge

16:13

to have baby on active duty

16:16

the legal battle spiked her blood pressure

16:18

and she spent the last two weeks of her pregnancy

16:20

a hospital tiny , born

16:22

in december and she stayed with struck until just

16:24

after christmas then it was time

16:26

to hand her over to friends over to

16:28

up to nebraska to hand over

16:30

tanya to them and

16:32

the to son the power production

16:35

for that leg

16:41

while i was there wouldn't let is a household

16:43

heard that me and

16:46

when they took me to the airport i was holding

16:49

and i got out car gave her to one

16:51

of her adopted brothers to hold

16:56

set off as said i'll see you the be some

16:59

because at all

17:02

and he confess i grad

17:04

all the way into the airport all the way

17:06

onto the plane all away

17:08

to st louis where got out to visit my

17:10

brother and he says you know really was half

17:12

expecting you to get off the plane was you baby

17:15

and said he had no idea how close second

17:20

there would have been too much a fight never never worked

17:22

my , was it i was going to stay

17:25

on active duty and

17:28

also have in the new changing the

17:30

rules the

17:31

drug got total of seven discharges from

17:33

the airforce most coming long

17:35

after her daughter had been born she

17:37

thinks it's a record

17:39

what on susan stock was scheduled

17:41

to be discharged in the army of the night tonight

17:43

if she had a child while and service i'm

17:45

that's against regulations are

17:47

today in this blog she's not married

17:50

god emperor from supreme court justice

17:52

douglas preventing her discharged until

17:54

the issues trash about keeping her infant

17:56

daughter up for adoption last december the

17:58

therefore still fat were discharged

18:00

under existing regulations for day the

18:02

ninth us circuit court of appeals in san

18:05

francisco rejected captains

18:07

drugs plate and concluded that pope

18:09

there was a compelling public interest

18:11

and not having pregnant female soldier

18:13

than the military establishment susan

18:16

stop is an unmarried to the airports

18:18

who had a baby alone seen seventy she's

18:21

roman catholic who would not have an abortion

18:23

debate as been given up for adoption

18:25

the airforce wanted her discharge

18:28

the she got a court order keeping her in

18:30

the service and co a court to rule

18:32

on the constitutionality of the or for

18:34

sex status rule

18:37

on this drugs taste early next

18:39

year among sexy turning into it

18:42

bader ginsburg then it easier

18:44

use women's rights

18:46

this is from ginsburg's

18:48

confirmation testimony in nineteen ninety

18:50

three there's no man was already

18:53

arabic because he had

18:55

been partner in the since f since

18:58

no man was ordered out of service

19:00

he was about to become a father

19:02

strict skis happened in nineteen seventy essentially

19:05

the beginning of the gender equality movement

19:07

in nineteen seventy one the high court had decided

19:10

the equal protection clause applied to women to

19:12

but they could still be fired for getting pregnant

19:15

meanwhile ginsberg was set to argue district

19:17

case the same term as roe versus wade

19:19

one of problems and thinking about row today

19:22

is that it was never planted

19:25

in the from as possible so ill

19:28

and then it became easier to take like that

19:30

dahlia lithwick covers the courts for sleep and

19:32

hosts the emeka podcast we

19:34

forget through the rear view

19:37

mirror that row was

19:39

not actually rooted in

19:42

a mother's bodily autonomy

19:44

your dignity ease when you go back in you

19:46

read the row opinion justice

19:48

blackmun he had been council at

19:50

the mayo clinic she was obsessed with the doctors

19:53

rates in that case in fact

19:55

case the new yorker noted few years ago justice

19:58

blackmun decision has forty eight reference

20:00

the physicians and only forty four

20:02

to women by locating the

20:04

ray somewhere in that

20:06

conversation relationship between

20:08

a woman in her doctor again always

20:10

man injustice like mans conception

20:12

you really did privilege the

20:14

physician

20:16

if not over the woman at least on equal

20:18

footing with the mother it was simply that's

20:20

what the court understood was that

20:22

these wise judicious man

20:24

would be helping women make the decisions

20:27

about what was best for them but it's

20:29

a light the central moral agent here

20:31

which is the woman and because

20:33

of that i think it's set

20:35

bro up to be more

20:38

teetering than it needed to be it

20:40

was not planted in

20:42

the soil of women's

20:44

dignity women's economic equality

20:47

women's autonomy and and know as the

20:49

person then with bader ginsburg in

20:51

the years since roe actually

20:53

deplored that the

20:55

road justices rooted the right to an abortion

20:57

in terms had already recognized privacy

21:00

or liberty woman should be free to

21:02

make this private decision with her doctor and

21:04

government shouldn't get involved the

21:07

also split the right into trimesters with

21:09

more leeway for government regulation further

21:11

into the pregnancy ginsburg

21:13

made privacy argument instruct to

21:16

but she rested it primarily and equality

21:18

grounds and she has said that this

21:20

is the case the got her to think in those terms

21:23

the one thing that distinguishes

21:25

women from man is that said

21:27

only women become pregnant and

21:30

if you're going to subject a woman to

21:32

disadvantageous treatment on the basis

21:34

of hop pregnant status which was what

21:37

was happening here you are going to deny

21:39

her see for treatment under the law

21:41

senator hang brown a colorado republican

21:44

asked ginsburg about it

21:45

rattling could see how the

21:47

equal protection argument would apply

21:49

to have a , that

21:52

interfered with her plan to bear the child

21:55

could that argument be applied

21:57

for someone who wish to with

22:00

the option of an abortion is

22:02

well does it apply both his decision

22:04

to not have abortion as well as to

22:06

decision to have an abortion be

22:08

awful

22:09

it was it's her right to decide

22:12

either , hard right

22:14

to decide whether or

22:16

not to bear a child in

22:19

this case it was her choice

22:21

for childbirth the governor it was

22:23

inhibiting that choice sick

22:26

was the price of remain

22:27

in the server the military policy

22:29

toward abortion of the time was both more permissive

22:32

and more coercive then civilian

22:34

policy indices pre road where abortion

22:36

was illegal in most

22:38

circumstances around the country

22:41

dubois professor neil siegel clicked for ginsburg

22:43

in two thousand and three he declined

22:46

to speak us for the story but siegel has

22:48

interviewed her about the struck case

22:50

record i would love to have known that during the nixon

22:52

administration armed forces bases

22:55

were offering abortions to women the service

22:57

and the dependence of men and service

22:59

in fact in july of that year nineteen

23:01

seventies the department defense issued

23:03

a formal policy abortion it

23:05

was first we were able to find mentioning it explicitly

23:08

the portions were to be permitted at military

23:10

base hospital even in states

23:13

where it was illegal

23:14

that's permissive part of it or

23:16

and also workhorses by to if you

23:18

want to keep your job in military and

23:20

you have to terminate the pregnancy even

23:22

if that wasn't secret in japan

23:25

structural she was never offered an abortion by

23:27

the airforce but she and other women new

23:29

the option was implied in her

23:31

brief on the case ginsburg also emphasized

23:34

struck catholic faith their service

23:36

women were more freedom make that choice the captain

23:38

was and struck said that she would take

23:40

her vacation time to recover from the

23:42

pregnancy way less than what

23:44

men got to recover from all kinds of ailments

23:47

could be a broken leg can also be drug

23:49

addiction alcohol abuse or there was no automatic

23:52

discharge for any of that

23:54

and so pregnancy unlike other disabilities

23:56

was grounds for immediate discharge

23:59

regardless of and the your circumstances

24:01

and moderates on my father's were deemed

24:04

unfit to serve

24:07

so this was to be counter intuitive

24:09

abortion rights and case in which

24:11

a white middle class woman with

24:13

an exemplary professional record was

24:16

choosing birth and the air

24:18

force's policy was making it impossible

24:21

the , illustrates blinds in the debate

24:23

around abortion abortion government

24:25

can compel pregnancy and other

24:27

cases it can also compel abortion

24:30

it's not just abortion denied that

24:33

reproduction can

24:34

on the fact that she chose

24:37

birth at time when the military

24:39

was an affair coercing abortion

24:42

made this case and especially sympathetic

24:45

one in which to try and persuade

24:48

and almost entirely from all male judiciary

24:50

that regulations of pregnancy

24:52

implicate basic questions about

24:55

women's equality women's equal

24:57

citizenship stature is just

24:59

as on , it it's

25:01

happening at time well as

25:03

emerging out of his history which you which for

25:06

women of color being coerced

25:08

without their knowledge or consent they come

25:10

in to hospital for the surgeries and

25:12

they end up being end or as

25:15

condition to receiving there is

25:17

haunted care that they haunted seeking

25:19

in this case raise

25:21

the issue of coors and without requiring

25:24

the court squarely confront the issues of

25:26

court to class given to catastrophic

25:29

loss

25:31

the captain's dilemma ginsburg was

25:33

also hoping to strike at another problem

25:36

when that has been resolved even half

25:38

century later that

25:39

the wrong for the government to act in ways

25:42

that reflect a reinforce the and

25:44

fury social status of traditionally

25:46

school groups including women

25:48

weather could be pregnancy discrimination

25:51

he can be various forms of sex classifications

25:54

it can be very restrictions on access

25:57

to contraception to abortion that

25:59

they're all part and parcel of

26:02

a separate spheres regime but

26:04

also harms women as

26:06

a group and reinforces their inferior

26:08

status

26:10

we were able to find figures for just how many

26:12

women in the us air force became pregnant

26:14

from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy

26:16

one just over four

26:19

thousand nine percent

26:21

of all women in the airforce just

26:24

for being pregnant the

26:26

supreme court would never hear strict case

26:28

perhaps during the case was loser the

26:31

solicitor general persuaded the air force

26:33

to wave captain discharge

26:35

the justices decided this new policy

26:38

for pregnant women and active service

26:40

rendered the case moot did

26:42

you talk about what it might have looked like in future

26:45

is struck had been decided vs

26:47

row

26:48

justice blackmun who writes a row is

26:50

not thinking about abortion as a sex

26:53

quality light at all but struck

26:55

would have been away for them to see that

26:57

there are set the quality steaks hear that when

26:59

you regulate pregnant women these

27:01

kinds of regulations can be shaped by

27:03

gender bias and at the impacts

27:06

my on women are going to be substantially greater

27:08

than the impact on men and or the

27:10

think the a quality steaks are are

27:12

pretty clear and struck to a

27:14

court that's capable of seeing

27:16

it but given the time period and

27:18

given composition of the court accepts

27:22

i wonder whether they would have even

27:24

been capable the drug is now

27:26

great grandmother

27:28

the and her only child tanya have

27:30

close relationship

27:31

strained in other times she would ask

27:34

me she would say why did you give me away

27:36

and as her attitude you away

27:39

gave you didn't forgot

27:41

, high yes he did after

27:43

you know after repeating it many times it

27:45

is i've tried saying wish

27:47

you could have been there for i you know i wish i could

27:49

have had you slam

27:52

on regrets

27:54

it she says things are the way they

27:56

are because they are the they are and that's

27:58

the other as to idea of

28:00

dang it makes lotta sense after

28:03

her career she told us that suffered

28:05

too

28:06

even after her discharge ordeal was over

28:08

the records from it were never removed from her airforce

28:11

files she says struck was turned

28:13

down for promo than three years started

28:15

the rank of captain so i

28:17

raised the the hell she retired

28:20

as a lieutenant colonel but who knows how

28:22

far she might have done another

28:24

one they

28:25

struck like so many americans as

28:28

complicated views on abortion as

28:30

caf like i'm supposed to be

28:32

against abortion any way shape or form

28:34

i'm not like when i was

28:36

saying cuban haven't

28:37

bars in it was like when i was one

28:40

to two months pregnant in there wasn't

28:42

any viability of the see this

28:44

period and it would just been

28:46

you know to settle on

28:48

the house she doesn't oppose abortion

28:50

if a woman's life threatened by the pregnancy

28:52

or if the cetus is badly deformed

28:54

on viable polls so most

28:56

americans hold that view too but

28:58

like fifty five percent of respondents she

29:00

doesn't want federal tax payer money to pay

29:02

for it

29:03

faq sheet of them under federal government involved

29:06

at all and being a

29:08

fiscal conservative i believe it should

29:10

be up to the states and of course

29:12

that was exactly the state of affairs

29:14

before rosie wade was settled was patchwork

29:17

of restrictions regulations regulations

29:19

rights just as those adopted by

29:21

the military

29:23

now struck in the process of writing

29:25

book is becoming the author of her

29:27

own story as she sees it

29:29

her crusade was aimed at much narrower target

29:32

than the one seen by legal scholars ,

29:34

about abortion was discrete

29:36

step on the path toward equality today

29:39

women no longer have to choose between motherhood

29:41

in the military in of it's it's

29:43

something that was very very

29:46

for the military jets had

29:49

to had any happened

29:51

with me in the seventies and

29:53

women shouldn't get it there

29:55

isn't any reason why you shouldn't surgery

29:58

since

30:01

r first woman general

30:04

was named general the same year that my

30:06

cases dust settled and the consoles

30:13

in august nineteen seventy

30:16

women

30:16

to the street tomorrow a half century

30:19

anniversary of the ratification

30:21

of the nineteenth amendment

30:23

read anything like one of most exciting with

30:25

the women's liberation movement has ever known plenty

30:28

of the city's is much more

30:30

it from europe according

30:32

recommit upper limits

30:34

the kind of a spontaneous saxon that

30:36

took place around the united it

30:39

the

30:39

thousand people marched in new york

30:42

we are urging women not to

30:44

take care of children on this one

30:46

day an art form in

30:48

there will be offices all over the country

30:50

that will be flooded with children

30:52

for us to their fathers or

30:54

unless i'm worried about this problem

30:57

the women were marching for marching whole host the

30:59

quality rights including abortions

31:01

the message one

31:02

if they would have equal citizenship

31:05

not only when they can vote but when

31:07

they can have the ability to trans one

31:09

the conditions under which they conceive

31:12

all children another thing we're doing

31:14

is passing contraceptive information

31:17

in this they are ,

31:19

cities so how

31:21

to end and moment as

31:24

well

31:25

english for so many women

31:27

and so many other movies and

31:29

this country the ,

31:31

for ownership the pins whole of

31:33

a woman's woman's

31:37

law but freedom struggles

31:39

are like that

31:40

this one have been long but

31:43

it's far from over

31:50

coming up i suddenly of revelation

31:53

i'm be sober panel investigating

31:56

the road to and from

31:58

that january six this

32:00

is media

32:09

he said i started to come out but thought

32:11

he had a gun so i closed the door stayed

32:14

inside

32:14

an episode of radio lab to the police

32:17

have to protect does slightly st

32:19

louis the more the believe i have any do

32:21

the it off protecting you is not

32:23

their job

32:24

don't believe that the police have any sort of national

32:26

juice i cry for help fell on

32:28

deaf ears

32:29

i didn't have to do a damn

32:31

sex no special duty

32:34

from radio lab

32:35

within wherever you get podcast

32:38

this

32:40

is on the media i'm brooklyn stone

32:43

and this week the select committee

32:45

investigating the january six

32:47

the pop on capital

32:48

continued to expose help widening

32:51

wire a premier sweaty

32:53

and let me also they make broader

32:55

statement to millions of americans

32:57

who put their trust in donald trump committee

32:59

vice chair cool it

33:02

can be difficult to accept that

33:04

president trump i abused your

33:06

trust that he deceived

33:08

you anyone that excuses

33:11

to ignore that fact that

33:13

is fact i , it weren't

33:15

true that it is among

33:17

the three convolutions we learn

33:19

lucky i need president was

33:21

live close to replacing his qualified

33:24

acting attorney general geoffrey rush

33:26

him with low level bringer

33:28

name of gift clock so we because

33:30

he was willing to send out

33:32

letter to george letter to b o j letterhead

33:35

the first perhaps of many to sing states

33:37

declaring the team

33:39

county election cover the

33:41

, d o j leadership

33:43

threatened to both i said mr programmer

33:45

resign immediately including

33:48

acting deputy attorney general feature

33:50

donahue are not working one minute

33:52

for this guy who i just

33:55

declared was conflicting evidence and

33:57

so on the president immediately turn

34:00

who are to mr angle and he said

34:02

steve you wouldn't resigned would

34:04

you and he said absolute i would miss

34:06

present you live in choice and

34:08

and i said and not the only ones no cares

34:10

if we resign stephen go that

34:13

doesn't matter but telling you what's gonna happen you're

34:15

gonna lose your entire department leadership every

34:17

single age will walk in your

34:19

entire ponder leadership ponder leadership out

34:21

within hours dot the he was

34:23

a park would be lit leading a good

34:26

i'd trend hopped down

34:30

when say it turns out the o j

34:32

law enforcement visited club house

34:34

presumably for evidence and it's investigation

34:37

of conspiracy to defraud

34:39

the united states by overturning

34:41

the election this

34:42

week for reports of lots of new subpoenas

34:45

serve to stay t o p party leaders

34:48

who helped to put together slates

34:50

of say collectors awful

34:52

lot of requests for pardons

34:54

by high placed advisors and

34:56

some prominent staff the steelers

34:58

and com

35:00

how do you know the congressman gates ask for pardon

35:02

he told me that meadows for a pardon how

35:06

the florida mo brooks at alabama

35:08

louis de mer to texas scott

35:11

perry of pennsylvania marjorie

35:13

tailored green of georgia

35:15

and andy biggs of arizona carry

35:17

, and taylor green have

35:19

denied it wisconsin senator

35:22

ron swanson was initially in denial

35:24

to about trying to pass a

35:26

slate of say selectors to

35:28

vice president pence and samueli sit

35:31

sit admitted he gave try to hand

35:34

deliver package to palms thought

35:36

didn't actually know what was in it all

35:39

these proofs of many hands

35:41

guiltily

35:42

appearing at a buttress of democracy

35:45

but authors in that hearing room

35:47

with surprising restraint a

35:49

slow burning but searing

35:52

blaze

35:53

it is one of the greatest congressional

35:55

hearings in decades in

35:58

setting out capella witness the compelling

36:01

facts not just a bunch

36:03

of members congress bloviating

36:05

but really a story being told

36:07

that has within it elements of

36:10

criminal activity laid out like

36:12

an indictment

36:13

michael baldwin as constitutional lawyer

36:15

and president of the brennan center for

36:17

justice at and why the school of law

36:20

it's a world record restraint

36:22

of congressional egos as a playful

36:24

to it this way the ,

36:27

leadership kevin mccarthy badly

36:29

miss played this because rather than

36:31

negotiating to put some of his

36:33

diehard trump supporters on their

36:35

he walked away presumably because

36:37

he thought trump would be mad if they cooperate in

36:40

all is kind of funny to watch

36:42

how in the first days trump

36:44

and the republican leadership sort ignored

36:46

it by and the second week

36:49

they're saying why didn't we get our people

36:51

on there but i also don't

36:53

think we should fall into the trap of

36:55

thinking of this as not having republicans

36:58

involvement the can ignore the role

37:00

cheney and atom the girl on committee

37:03

and the witnesses one after another

37:05

series of indictments of donald trump

37:08

out the mouths of prominent conservative

37:10

republicans people who are very

37:12

respected within that world it's

37:14

all that much more compelling let's

37:17

talk about rusty bow where's rusty

37:19

bowers is currently the speaker

37:21

of the house of , arizona

37:23

legislature he isn't prominent conservative

37:26

republican a prominent member

37:28

of the church of latter day saints and

37:30

he recounted harrowing terms

37:33

harrowing number of phone calls from the president bauer

37:35

said president bauer overthrow the election

37:38

it is a tenet of my face the

37:41

constitution is divinely

37:43

inspired

37:45

so for me to do that because somebody

37:47

just ask me to the

37:49

foreign to my very been i i

37:51

will not do it

37:53

the present united states said we'll

37:55

do it anyway and his lawyers called

37:57

said do it anyway justice

38:00

growing these threats his family

38:02

received he talked about his daughter

38:05

gravely ill the

38:06

was terrified he called

38:08

his wife valiant

38:11

and yet when asked recently

38:13

would he vote for trump again he

38:15

said if he was running against biden yes

38:17

the evangelical ,

38:20

voters who are the base of

38:22

republican party and somewhat to the country country

38:25

so much about lgbtq

38:27

issues that reproductive rights they

38:29

feel the need to be with the republicans

38:31

even if donald trump who they regard

38:33

as an authoritarian is the head of

38:35

the tickets have to imagine certainly bowers

38:38

doesn't want trump to be that of the tickets

38:40

and one of the most important things that

38:42

could happen in this country and maybe a little

38:44

bit is happening is a flattering

38:46

of the republican the around

38:49

magic powerful role of liz

38:51

cheney in the series is part that

38:53

is dying see and republican primaries in

38:55

polling but even as these

38:57

hearings were taking place the primaries

38:59

for senate for governor for house

39:01

races candidates

39:03

who mows the big

39:05

lie have soul as to keep

39:08

winning even as the big lie is proven

39:10

be alive

39:11

okay enough of this idle speculation

39:13

let's get the prosecution it's to charges

39:16

of such son of official proceeding

39:19

and attempting to different

39:20

the government these are very dry words for

39:23

a two pronged effort to stop the peaceful

39:25

transfer of power

39:27

obviously we don't vote for president we

39:29

vote for a slate of electors pool

39:31

go to the electoral college those

39:33

electors elect the president right

39:36

the electoral college actually to the

39:38

extent it's real thing voted in december

39:40

the ceremony on january six the

39:42

gavel get banged people bring the box

39:44

in we may remember al gore

39:46

or dan quayle other people having to read

39:49

the results that they themselves had lost

39:51

an election thought and then and

39:52

president had moved president

39:54

trump who wanted the presiding officer

39:57

in this case mike pence to accept

39:59

urban all can it fleets

40:01

of elector

40:02

what trump was trying to do was to create

40:04

enough doubt to force

40:07

mike pence the vice president to do

40:09

something he had no legal right to do which was

40:11

to reject the electors just cancel

40:13

the whole thing and send quote back to the states

40:16

robert centers pleasant one

40:18

of those sake electors

40:20

we were just new canon kind

40:22

of useful idiots or rooms at

40:24

that point this week while we hearings were

40:26

going on the , b i

40:29

issued subpoenas for the cellphone

40:31

of the party leaders in different

40:33

states because it turns out as the hearing

40:36

showed showed fake electors

40:38

didn't just go off on their on their

40:41

effort was scripted by the white house

40:43

and that's a big deal they are

40:45

showing a phone call with trump talk

40:47

to the acting attorney general and trump said

40:50

just put out a statement saying it was corrupt

40:53

and leave the rest to me and republican members

40:55

of congress they wanted to show

40:57

and think did show that trump

40:59

knew he lost the election

41:02

that is the big question

41:04

i've read endless article the on this

41:06

matter of criminal hand it

41:09

seems as if you almost have to look into

41:12

the defendants heart the

41:15

, criminal statutes of

41:17

different standards for what level

41:19

of knowledge what level of corrupt intense

41:21

there has to be be think

41:23

of it this way if you pick up loaded

41:26

gun and i say that's a loaded gun don't point

41:28

that and say no it's not it's a potato

41:31

and i say no really it's loaded gun and is a know

41:33

it's just potato ensued someone

41:35

and say i believed it was potato you're

41:37

still criminally liable there is

41:40

a possibility in many parts of the law

41:42

for willful ignorance when

41:44

you choose to make sure that you

41:46

say that you don't know so

41:49

you can do what you want and

41:51

when it comes to something like the

41:53

pressuring of the election officials

41:56

and others in georgia where

41:58

we heard him on tape saying

42:01

hey just find maybe eleven thousand

42:03

votes that says enough criminal

42:05

intent right there but don't have to really delve

42:07

into the recesses of his heart mind

42:10

what about the same tape

42:12

when he says we just wanna get too truth

42:15

well that's where these hearings

42:18

don't really answer the question of whether

42:20

the justice department will bring prosecution

42:24

there's all kinds of evidence that he knew

42:26

going into the election and after

42:28

the election but he'll be able to use

42:30

velocity and volume of his own lives

42:33

as lives as

42:34

is there any scenario in which

42:37

all of that evidence that trump new

42:40

loan amount to a hill well

42:42

that's

42:43

one of the big questions that merrick

42:45

garland another prosecutors need to assess

42:48

if , crime is big enough if it is

42:50

clear enough is consequences are

42:53

predictable enough and bad enough that

42:55

is less important to so whether

42:57

deep in their heart the person who committed

43:00

the crime what their sense of reality was

43:02

was if trump from two to four the afternoon

43:05

on any given day sought oh i really one

43:07

and then from four to six new he new

43:10

he nevertheless knew it was illegal

43:12

to do the things he was doing they were illegal

43:15

look this were an easy question

43:17

for the justice department we certainly

43:19

would not want to live a country

43:21

where it was a routine matter prosecute the

43:23

previous president the way you might see and

43:25

some dictatorship but we've also

43:27

never had a president of united states

43:30

try to overthrow american democracy before

43:33

that's what's been sown in these hearings

43:35

and also in other evidence throughout

43:37

the year there's no doubt that it

43:39

would be an extraordinary and disrupted

43:41

thing to prosecute donald trump

43:43

but might be more extraordinary

43:45

and more disruptive of the long term not

43:48

to one the things that so extraordinary

43:50

with all this is we all saw

43:53

january six as it happened we also trump's

43:56

public efforts and twenty and

43:58

twenty try to overturn election and it was bit

44:00

of a clown show it certainly seemed to be

44:02

you had rudy giuliani with the hair dye dripping

44:05

down his face you had sydney

44:07

powell promising to release the cracking

44:09

the my pillow guy all these crazy

44:12

people running around it turns

44:14

out that beneath that behind that there

44:16

was far more serious far

44:18

more dangerous far more

44:20

thought through effort to overturn the election

44:22

and overturn american democracy we

44:25

, know that while all this was

44:27

going on trump was trying to

44:29

take over the justice department the use

44:31

it as an instrument instrument the effort

44:34

to stop the peaceful transfer

44:36

of power he was going to elevate

44:38

a very a official

44:40

from the environmental wing of the justice

44:42

department to become attorney general because

44:45

that person was willing to send a letter

44:47

to the states saying election was corrupt

44:49

stop the presses don't send your electors

44:52

and that would have been an extraordinary been

44:54

crisis and the acting

44:56

attorney general the acting deputy attorney

44:58

general rushed to the

45:00

white house and confronted the president in an

45:02

oval office meeting we now know and

45:05

said we will resign and so will everybody

45:07

else at will justice department you

45:09

may remember from watergate the saturday night

45:12

massacre when richard nixon

45:14

and nineteen seventy three ordered that the

45:16

special prosecutor be fired who

45:18

was seeking his tapes and

45:20

when the attorney general and deputy

45:22

attorney general resigned were fired

45:24

it basically started the impeachment

45:27

of nixon and nixon had give up the tapes

45:29

this would have been like the saturday night massacre

45:31

by the hundreds it would been the

45:33

biggest crisis in the history of the

45:35

justice department and we

45:37

came within minutes of within happening and

45:40

we didn't know about it if the time we've

45:43

been hearing about periodic

45:45

stories of subpoenas on various issues

45:47

from the justice department

45:50

is it fair to ask to tell me what

45:52

you think the justice department is up

45:54

to now and then the procurator

45:57

of merrick garland position

46:00

we've been watching in the justice department

46:02

has not been inactive but

46:04

there's been a lot of questioning about

46:06

whether they're taking the high level crimes

46:09

potentially hear seriously we've

46:11

seen them prosecuting hundreds and hundreds

46:13

of people for the attack on the capital

46:16

we've seen them start to go after the proud boys

46:18

and the other militias who really planned

46:20

this violent assault but ,

46:22

been real question as to how seriously

46:25

seriously are taking the political

46:27

crime political this wave of subpoenas

46:30

involving the fatal letters all over country

46:33

maybe the first time that the justice

46:35

department is showing his hand really

46:37

investigating hand crimes about

46:40

the basic effort to stop the peaceful

46:42

transfer of power by transfer white house

46:45

all of which is to say that merrick garland

46:47

is a very serious prosecutors adam

46:49

schiff other members of the committee have criticized

46:52

him for being too cautious we don't

46:54

know is he being cautious or easy being

46:56

quiet if there is a

46:58

prosecution of the president and

47:00

those around him it would have

47:02

to be done as much as possible

47:05

when an eye toward making it seem

47:07

and be legitimate who is

47:09

large a group of the public as possible

47:12

that's not only important as public

47:14

matter it's even important terms of getting his

47:16

conviction when you bring

47:18

prosecutions you always have one

47:20

i am whether or not you can get

47:22

a jury to convict we ,

47:24

read about the decision by the

47:26

manhattan district attorney's office to

47:28

pull back from one of the possible

47:31

aires prosecution of trump involving

47:33

him lying and is real estate business

47:36

and according to media reports part

47:38

the problem was that the only witness who

47:40

they felt a to put on stand was michael cohen

47:43

cohen trump's former lawyer who would not be

47:45

trustworthy and that in the

47:47

nz difficulty of getting conviction

47:49

affected what to do with beginning

47:51

of the possible prosecution prosecutors

47:54

do think about that they said think

47:56

about that again sometimes

47:59

the crime is of such the to that says

48:01

seriousness and with so much evidence

48:03

good outweighs the doubts the people

48:05

have were thinking about what is in mind

48:07

of donald trump right now we need

48:09

beating about what is in the mind mark garland

48:12

there

48:13

was a commentary in the york times this

48:15

week which talked about how

48:18

ireland also has to consider what

48:20

is really in the public's interest

48:22

we are also riven it's only going

48:24

to make it worse

48:26

i felt that rang hollow

48:28

because we did see the capital

48:30

overrun i don't know

48:32

how we could be more divided

48:35

than we are nobody

48:37

wants more divisiveness

48:39

it's allies the law the constitution

48:41

is the constitution i think that

48:43

the justice department said merrick

48:45

garland ultimately have to make the decision

48:48

not out of nervousness about

48:50

the public mood but out of fealty

48:53

to the law and constitution

48:55

and the facts i think it would be

48:57

irresponsible to do anything less

49:01

you wrote in a column

49:03

awhile ago in

49:04

focus on a big why not

49:06

on the big wire the still think

49:08

that's true

49:09

first of all one of the things that this

49:12

set , hearing shows is that

49:14

the life the big lie about

49:16

our elections elections

49:19

to poison american politics and

49:21

is the is for so much

49:23

of what is going on right now in right states

49:26

one the most compelling witnesses

49:28

he spoke rather slowly but his rather

49:30

were searing was judge michael

49:33

losing people may not know

49:35

looted was almost appointed

49:37

to the supreme court twice by george

49:39

w bush is a very esteemed

49:42

conservative republican lawyer

49:44

and also had some prominent

49:47

clerks the on eastern was

49:49

one of them and he of course was trump's wing

49:51

man in his efforts to overthrow

49:53

the lesson and looted testified

49:56

that trump and this big why

49:58

is clear and present danger to

50:00

american democracy now

50:02

and in twenty twenty four this

50:05

is not over the ,

50:07

effort to overthrow the election was

50:09

chaotic and shambolic now

50:11

it's professionalized now we're seeing

50:13

supporters of the big lie been

50:15

installed in election offices all over

50:17

the country we see candidates embracing

50:20

it it is looking more and

50:22

more like it will be a struggle

50:24

to get people to agree

50:27

on result of the twenty twenty four election

50:30

i'll say windows and to i think these hearings

50:33

are making very powerful case for

50:35

criminal prosecution but that can't be

50:37

in isn't there only purpose

50:40

public opinion has to be central

50:43

goal for this committee

50:45

and if the viewers of fox news

50:47

don't get to see it is there a court

50:49

of public

50:50

union anymore for , about

50:52

the very first day of the hearings

50:55

was on in prime time and it was what's

50:57

called roadblock which is

50:59

the broadcast networks a b c

51:01

cbs nbc nbc

51:04

hearing in it's entirety as a big news

51:06

events not just fox or

51:08

cnn or msnbc still

51:10

allows people who don't obsessive we

51:12

follow cable news they're less people don't

51:15

check twitter all day they're actually

51:17

living their lives and lot of them watch broadcast

51:19

tv about twenty million people

51:22

viewed the hearing that night that's

51:24

about the same as football a so

51:27

was a bigger a larger audience

51:29

that is used to hearing about these things if

51:31

it's the first time you're very it is pretty devastating

51:34

congressional hearings used to be very

51:36

major media event a very significant

51:38

way to move policy and and chase

51:41

country we think about watergate hearings

51:43

and ninety seventy three or the

51:45

army mccarthy hearings we haven't

51:47

really had that in a while but

51:49

these sessions by this committee

51:51

are looking like they going to have they

51:53

are significant impact on public's

51:56

view already the percentage

51:58

of the population who say the my

52:00

trunk prosecuted has gone from sixty

52:02

percent of the fifty eight percent in

52:04

the first two weeks that ,

52:06

be temporary blip but it sounds

52:08

pretty meaningful to to

52:11

thank you very you a

52:13

thank you for having michael

52:15

baldwin as baldwin constitutional lawyer

52:17

and president of the brennan center for

52:19

just

52:22

that

52:23

is seriously so thanks to

52:25

a lotta casanova burgess and tezuka

52:27

glenda

52:28

were reporting the susan struck

52:30

story and to mark henry phillips

52:32

for composing music our

52:34

technical directors jennifer munson

52:36

our engineers this week were andrew

52:38

narino andrew adrian lily

52:41

henry rogers is our executive producer

52:44

on the media is production w

52:46

production wise studios on brook lads

52:51

he said i started to come out but i thought

52:53

he had gun so i close the door stated

52:56

on this episode radio lab do the police

52:58

have to protect us despite what you see

53:01

elite

53:02

at least have any duty at all protecting

53:04

you is not there's a i don't believe

53:06

that police have any sort actual

53:08

duties wait

53:09

for help fell on deaf ears they didn't

53:11

have to do a damn thing

53:14

no special duty from radio lab

53:17

within wherever you get podcast