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on this episode of radiolab do

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the police have to protect us from

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radiolab wherever you get

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podcast

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list

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supported w y

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c studios

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i'm

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annalee newitz and i'm co-hosting this

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week show with brooke gladstone all

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across the country this month people are celebrating

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queer and trans pride we're

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having parades cook-out

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dances family gatherings and

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drag queen store hours for kids in

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libraries and schools it

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seems like the lgbt community

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has never been more visible at

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the future of this community feels darker

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than it has in a long time across

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florida protest against the so-called

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doomsday gay bill, officially the

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parental rights in education bill

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it prohibits classroom instruction by

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school or third parties

1:01

on sexual orientation, or gender identity

1:04

in kindergarten through third-grade

1:06

have

1:12

been introduced in the police

1:14

arrested more than 30 members of

1:16

a white nationalist group in idaho

1:18

officers, confronted the patriot

1:21

front group on saturday dozens

1:24

are piled in the back of a moving truck

1:26

police say, they were traveling to a private

1:28

event where they were hoping to set

1:31

off a riot a lot of

1:33

these attacks whether they come from proud

1:35

boys or elected officials things

1:37

to reinforce the idea that lgbt

1:39

people cannot survive or

1:41

thrive in places outside of few

1:43

coastal cities, but this is

1:45

never been true a study from

1:47

the movement advancement project in 2019,

1:50

revealed that at least three million queer

1:52

people live in rural america and

1:55

they have no interest in fleeing to big cities

1:57

for protection

2:00

during the years

2:02

chronicling the it would be paul

2:04

the country clear an

2:06

oral history project and upper caste

2:08

of the same name subject

2:11

or lgbt people who are living

2:13

in rural parts of the united states

2:16

in small towns and remote farm

2:18

and they're taking great joy and

2:21

for mcconnell of i eat i think

2:23

it's very beautiful when the sun

2:25

going down the latest names

2:27

like that gold and read there are

2:30

signs on the house

2:32

shadows beautiful

2:34

shadows on the ridges to prospect

2:36

virginia

2:37

my great grandparents buck

2:40

forty acres land married

2:42

turn three and actually if you think

2:44

about it my great grandfather

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would have then been a black man

2:49

traveling from west virginia represent

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or on that thousand original forty acres

2:53

thirty five so

2:55

here growing up without t v or internet

2:57

and rural west virginia we didn't

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hear any stories of queer and trans

3:01

people living in their state and it

3:03

didn't improve much when they left for college

3:06

the only accessible stories

3:09

the queer people in rural spaces and trans

3:11

people in rural spaces that were available

3:14

in early two thousands were the stories

3:16

of the murder of matthew shepard and the murder

3:18

of brandon teena right and so boys

3:21

don't cry i think was the first

3:24

movie i ever saw that had rural

3:26

queer people in it that's horrible

3:28

story so horrible horrible

3:31

would about ah when you finally

3:33

got to college things

3:36

like the l word for example did

3:38

you see anything in there that felt like

3:40

it was uplink a ball to your life

3:42

no no the sniffles successor i

3:45

mean i remember the l word came out when

3:47

i was in college and i remember was like this whole

3:49

saying and some friends like rented the whole

3:51

dvd set rate because we like didn't have

3:53

t v's in our dorm has

3:55

and had this whole like watch party but i was

3:57

like is this real like where is

4:00

the eve

4:07

the

4:08

now yeah what about his

4:10

last chance

4:11

our diversity

4:15

he can only on shelter so know

4:17

any minute did not feel like my life

4:19

or experience in college but definitely

4:22

like know part of it hadn't felt

4:24

like it exists on the same planet as where i grew up

4:26

so a that there is

4:28

a coffeeshop be that everyone

4:30

can get there and meet up and find each

4:32

other see that it's like

4:34

totally fine totally be queried talking about your

4:36

sex life in public none

4:39

of that

4:40

your oral history project country queers

4:42

is basically a corrective you

4:45

a false dichotomy of world das

4:47

and city joy i'm in

4:49

documenting the lives and works

4:51

of queer and trans people living in different

4:53

parts of the american countries i'm wondering

4:55

how did this project come about

4:58

after being gone for about ten

5:00

years finally moved home in

5:02

two thousand and eleven and really

5:04

quickly started to see queer people right

5:06

i was just like in a different place with my own queerness

5:09

i was much more tuned in to

5:11

sort of who was around me and so

5:13

we'd like give each other the not at the walmart

5:15

or like at the state fair or wherever

5:17

we see each other and people also

5:19

started to really tell me now

5:21

that i was home and i was out people grown

5:23

up with would be like oh there were these two men that

5:25

lived in a house together down the road when i was

5:27

child and nobody ever called them

5:30

partners but they , related

5:32

and they shared a life together and raise sheep

5:34

together went to church together and i

5:37

just like started to get really

5:39

frustrated because i felt like i'd been

5:41

lied to by omission both locally

5:43

in terms of growing up and it just wasn't

5:45

talking about uh-huh but also i think

5:47

in the sort of national context of there

5:50

being just like a complete absence

5:52

of any evidence that we not

5:54

only like can live in these places

5:56

but often do that we've always been here

5:59

and that not exclusive

6:00

the experience of like violence harassment

6:02

and death rates that can be a

6:04

reality that has been reality in rural places

6:06

but also has the reality and continues to be

6:08

cities for many queer

6:10

and trans people particularly trans women

6:12

of color and so i just got really frustrated

6:14

and and decided wanted to the me

6:17

and learn from other the

6:19

on small town and queer

6:21

and chances just kind of set out

6:23

with a reporter

6:24

there you have said that the format

6:27

of the oral history project was kind of accidental

6:29

so what made you gravitate

6:31

to it and then stick with

6:34

there is journalist and an oral history

6:36

and that i really admire based in north carolina

6:38

name cynthia green leaf and i heard her

6:40

speak once and she talked about having

6:42

to really like readjust approach

6:45

to oral history interviewing someone is trained

6:47

a journalist because you realize that it's

6:49

, like porch sitting than it is like a

6:52

journalistic interview and really love

6:54

that description and i think that oral history

6:56

really lends itself well some rural

6:58

spaces and i definitely grew up in a place

7:00

and in a culture where people just sit on

7:02

the porch and talk people just tell stories

7:04

you know mean they general store gas

7:06

station where the post offices of the bottom of

7:08

the hell you're out the still every to go down

7:10

there there's a row a guy sitting

7:12

on the porch to talk in and so i think that

7:15

that sort of in some ways that informality

7:17

of oral history is is something that

7:19

i really love about it with

7:21

so often been documented from the outside

7:24

right and i think that goes for queer people that

7:26

goes for trans people that with for so many communities

7:28

of color i think it's really rare

7:30

that we get to sort of reclaim narratives

7:33

about ourselves as rural people

7:35

and know that's true for people living in the appalachian

7:37

region in terms of national media and

7:39

think it's really true for queer and trans people to

7:42

be i love that i love that it's

7:44

just the casual conversation

7:46

that also mean so much sick

7:48

can mean the

7:49

difference between feeling like you're alone

7:52

in feeling like you can have a conversation

7:54

with other clear people and

7:56

you the project has grown quite bit

7:59

and you've said it another goal

8:01

for the country queers

8:04

oral history is to challenge

8:06

the myth that rural america

8:09

is just this conservative monolith

8:12

i wonder if you can talk a little bit about that

8:14

yeah that that wasn't sort of initially my

8:16

idea with the project it was really i

8:18

needed this like i needed to in

8:21

other rural we're people and understand

8:23

how they were making it work a had a lot of questions

8:25

about whether or not i could pull this off

8:27

somebody they still the honestly sit sit sit

8:29

sit but it's taken

8:32

on some new purpose for me

8:35

in terms of providing somewhat of

8:37

an intervention in the way that we think and talk

8:39

about rural spaces in media

8:41

in this country and think that's still

8:44

so often especially

8:46

at and of a national level the representations

8:48

rural places are very flattened are very

8:51

boiled down into something that's the doesn't

8:54

reflect like the richness in the fullness

8:56

and contradiction of our spaces

8:58

the economies of rural places are really

9:00

varied right there places like

9:02

closer where i'm living that are like completely

9:06

the , has passed and these

9:08

towns are suffering their towns and

9:10

rural texas i passed through that seem to be thriving

9:12

and it's not in some like rural gentrification

9:15

process they just they never died for whatever

9:17

reason they have an economy that can sustain it

9:19

it geography is so different the

9:22

political climates are really different there these

9:24

pockets of like very liberal and progressive

9:26

rural communities all over the country

9:29

and then there of course like incredibly conservative

9:31

and places where places

9:34

, in and especially i would say cringe and

9:36

people color feel really unsafe like there's just

9:38

so much variation

9:40

in what is held within the description

9:42

rural right my hope for media

9:45

representations of rural places as that

9:48

there are places are allowed as

9:50

much sort of nuance and contradiction

9:52

and complexity as any maybe collection

9:54

of stories about new yorker the bay is to

9:57

some extent your oral history project

10:00

concern with raising the visibility

10:02

of these country queers and

10:05

at the same time especially right now

10:07

there's a ton of conversation about whether

10:09

increased visibility is actually hoping

10:11

queer and trans people or is

10:13

makes some people less safe so

10:16

said the folks that you're talking to deal with

10:18

this risking their lives

10:22

up agree christian yeah i

10:24

think about this about lot the original

10:26

dream and vision of the project was really

10:29

about making ourselves

10:31

visible to each other and

10:33

and that that there's something really important particularly

10:36

i think several the people who fan

10:40

hold maybe much of realize

10:42

that there aren't people like us here are that this

10:44

is new phenomenon or that this

10:46

is influence from cities are from

10:48

mainstream media think there's

10:50

something really powerful and sort of like

10:53

winning the reality that

10:55

we've actually always been here and trying

10:57

to find those stories trying to connect

11:00

with each other around those stories but

11:02

the same time like of course in this day and

11:05

age and on the internet the internet like

11:07

you can't control where things are going

11:09

and how they're gonna be used

11:11

have you heard anything from your sources

11:13

and folks that you talk to about how

11:15

they're rethinking the way

11:17

that they're out or how

11:19

there may be changing the way that

11:21

they talk about themselves because of

11:24

the backlash

11:25

really am have

11:28

been interviewing in past week at

11:30

queer couple in the closest town me who

11:33

advertise , facebook that they were hosting drag

11:35

brunch at their plant store and

11:38

then got an eviction notice pretty immediately

11:40

and the community responded

11:42

for most part really positively

11:44

an organized inequality march in town

11:47

town this is town of about twenty seven hundred people

11:50

and as far as i know the drag brunch will be

11:52

the first like public day

11:54

event to ever happen this towns and

11:57

you know a lot of people online or saying things to them

11:59

like come over to this there were more liberal

12:01

or come to the city know in west virginia

12:03

city and air quotes i would say bye

12:07

they're like we don't wanna go for them the

12:09

more resistance that they're getting the more

12:11

they wanna stay there like if if

12:13

we are ruffling feathers that means we're doing something

12:16

right and it's not the

12:18

only queer own business and town but

12:20

it's the first queer own business

12:22

that talks about being clear own business

12:24

in town and they

12:26

get a lotta people coming and of all ages

12:29

like not just young people coming people coming talking

12:31

about how important it is for them that there's just

12:33

like a physical space even though the store

12:35

you know it's sort of those plants it's not like a community

12:37

drop in center but in some way that serves as

12:39

that but they also talked about having

12:41

people in their fifties and sixties come in who

12:44

have never publicly come out and so

12:46

if anything think i hear lot

12:49

of people sort of like digging

12:51

in and routing deeper into really

12:54

wanting to stay in and change

12:57

am and support other and in

12:59

particular support younger queer

13:01

and trans people in rural places

13:03

yeah there's been to so much awful

13:06

news for queer and trans folks

13:08

living the united states over the past year

13:10

i mean there's dogs don't say gay

13:12

laws there's other laws targeting trans

13:15

kids and queer community is and

13:17

texas and florida and many other states

13:19

there's scapegoating of drag performers even

13:22

in the city where i live in san francisco

13:24

the human rights campaign has found

13:26

that there's rise in pride parades

13:29

and other events like the drag branch that

13:31

human sense in rural areas and

13:33

small towns just this year in the past

13:35

maybe couple of years and i've

13:37

been thinking lot about what adrian

13:39

murray brown cause pleasure activism

13:41

witches the need for

13:43

marginalized people and particularly trans

13:46

and queer people to experience joy

13:48

just survive just to feel

13:50

like can go on another day and

13:52

imagine a better future and

13:55

i wonder if that resonates with you and your

13:57

project so much

13:59

so yes oh my

14:00

though i mean i think it's important

14:02

to talk about the fullness

14:04

of our experiences right like i don't want

14:06

this project deny that realities

14:08

that a lot of rural queer people and a lot

14:10

of rural trans people in particular see

14:13

some like real

14:15

intense struggles but at the same

14:17

time think for a long time the only

14:19

stories that were accessible particularly

14:22

about like rural queer lives

14:25

for those of like violent murders like that's

14:27

the only thing could find when i started

14:29

this project in twenty thirteen which in

14:31

some way that not that long ago and so

14:33

like what brings you the most joy in your

14:35

life and so often they're like

14:38

this like that the on my portrayed

14:40

here or walking in the woods with

14:42

my dogs or getting the hang

14:44

out with my grandma's you know it's

14:46

like it's about being home is not

14:48

about leaving and so think claiming

14:50

joy in rural spaces queer

14:53

and trans people is so important and

14:55

maybe that's part of why these really

14:57

new pride events feel

15:00

so powerful right is because

15:03

we claim joy and private citizens

15:05

like at each other's houses say here

15:07

but we don't do publicly very much and that

15:09

feels like a new like a new wave

15:11

i think that's happening in lot of rural

15:13

places a now

15:15

can i ask what give the you joy about

15:17

living in the country what's kept you they're all

15:19

the time

15:21

mean it's not all a

15:23

walk in the park it's just not jobs

15:25

hard to find the region the region some drop

15:27

lotsa not dimensions either you can be

15:30

out work where you can also make

15:32

living wage education opportunities

15:34

scarce here there's lot that that it's hard

15:36

here internet access it's hard here dating

15:39

is really their it here but there's

15:42

no on the planet that i love much as this

15:44

place and every time leave i'm so

15:47

homesick i'm so homesick and when i come

15:49

home it's like it's like my whole

15:51

body can relax in way that just never

15:53

does anywhere else and i and i there's nothing

15:55

that makes me happier than like hakan

15:58

my goes on walk down and the than watching

16:00

them climb and jump off of rocks

16:02

and just wander around tasting

16:05

things swimming in the river that that bolland

16:07

as mountain is like one of the most

16:10

joyous the things i've

16:12

ever experienced in my life

16:16

live around my church history

16:18

music with the windows down on the back roads

16:20

the

16:20

me so much joy how

16:23

much for joining a place thank you

16:25

so much sense home later anger

16:27

is the founder of the oral history project

16:29

country we're on hood of podcast

16:32

the man for whom for

16:34

at the annenberg innovation laugh at the university

16:36

of southern california

16:40

hard have extra i'm a big show

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this week we prefer the legal consequences

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of the january six committee's findings

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the then i'm anna lee new it

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i'm david remnick in each week on the new yorker

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radio our my colleagues and i unpack

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what's happening in very complicated

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17:08

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