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At the center of our culture war

0:44

lies a single word, woe. I'm Kai

0:46

Wright. Join me on Notes from America,

0:48

live from Harlem's Apollo Theater to explore

0:50

the word's origins as we celebrate Dr.

0:52

Martin Luther King Jr. Listen

0:54

wherever you get your podcasts. This

0:58

is the On the Media Podcast Extra. I'm

1:00

Michael Lowinger. On

1:03

the show this past week, we aired

1:05

a conversation with an Israeli journalist named

1:07

Orin Persiko, a staff writer at The

1:10

Seventh Eye, which is an independent investigative

1:12

magazine focused on media and freedom of

1:14

speech in Israel. I

1:16

spoke to Orin about how despite the

1:19

fact that nightmarish images of destruction in

1:21

Gaza have filled the news and social

1:23

media fees for the last three months,

1:26

within Israel, the mainstream media tells

1:29

a very different story. There

1:32

was so much more that didn't make it

1:34

into the show because of time restrictions, so

1:37

we're giving you an opportunity to hear a

1:39

longer version here. To kick it

1:41

off, I asked him to give us a lay

1:43

of the land and also tell us a bit

1:45

about where Israelis have been getting their news lately.

1:48

Ever since the war started, there's

1:50

been a huge spike in

1:53

ratings and TV and radio.

1:55

It's like two, maybe three times

1:58

the amount it was before. Mostly

2:00

on Channel 12, that's the major

2:02

commercial TV channel in Israel. You

2:05

also have Channel 14, which is a

2:08

right-wing pro-Netanyahu

2:10

propaganda machine,

2:13

which became the second most popular

2:15

TV channel in Israel during the

2:17

past year, even before the war.

2:21

And if you look at the main

2:23

websites, you'll have YNet,

2:25

which is the digital arm

2:27

of Yediotah Chonot, a very

2:30

big media corporation in Israel.

2:33

If you look at the newspapers, you

2:35

have Israel Aion, which is

2:38

a free newspaper, Yediotah Chonot,

2:40

and Haaretz, which is maybe

2:43

more well-known outside Israel than it is

2:45

read inside Israel. Yeah, people always point

2:47

to it and sort of see it

2:49

as a beacon of liberal thought in

2:51

Israel, but you're saying it doesn't have

2:53

that much traction among Israeli readers. No,

2:56

that's right. It's because the left

2:58

in Israel is small and getting smaller

3:01

all the time, so there's less and

3:03

less audience for that kind of material.

3:06

There was a piece in The Guardian

3:08

from last weekend that reported that nearly

3:11

half of Israelis get their news from

3:13

TV channels and that TV in particular

3:15

has been hugely influential in shaping Israeli

3:17

opinion after October 7th. Why

3:20

has TV in particular been so

3:22

influential? The very

3:24

beginning of the war had a

3:26

huge impact. During the first day,

3:28

October 7th and probably October 8th

3:31

and 9th, the

3:33

Israeli television really filled in

3:35

a void that the Israel

3:37

state left open. A

3:40

lot of the Israel establishment,

3:42

of course, the military, but

3:44

also the health, social welfare,

3:46

the first aid, it

3:49

really didn't know how to respond

3:51

to the massacre. There

3:54

was a lot of civil initiatives that

3:56

filled in the void. The

3:59

Israeli television took part

4:01

in that. You could really hear

4:03

live on air people asking

4:05

for help from their shelters,

4:08

saying, we can hear Hamas,

4:10

Jihad, terrorists outside, they're shooting,

4:12

help us. Israeli

4:14

TV showed that to the public

4:16

and later helped those people, whoever

4:19

survived, get in contact with their

4:21

families and loved ones. Israeli

4:24

television really did outstanding work in

4:26

the first few days. Ever

4:29

since, it became a very

4:31

important factor in shaping

4:33

the reality in Israel. It

4:35

sounds like TV journalists really

4:38

rose to the occasion on

4:40

and shortly after October 7th. Since

4:44

then, though, I wonder how

4:46

strong their reporting has been.

4:48

Former national security adviser, Eyal

4:51

Hulata, has described, quote,

4:53

a dome of disconnection

4:56

created by the trauma of October

4:58

7th with Israelis increasingly feeling isolated

5:00

from a world that they feel

5:02

doesn't understand their pain and their

5:05

fear of Hamas. Yes, I

5:07

think that's very true. The main

5:09

two roles of TV journalism

5:11

in Israel after October 7th

5:14

was one to lift the

5:16

morale of the army, lift the morale of

5:18

the Israeli public. The

5:21

second is to not show

5:23

anything damaging that's happening in

5:25

Gaza because of the Israeli

5:28

bombardment and invasion. The

5:30

logic here is that if

5:32

you show civilians in Gaza

5:35

getting hurt, then

5:37

a lot of people in

5:39

Israel will start questioning the

5:41

legitimacy of the IDF attacks

5:44

in Gaza. So

5:46

you don't show that. The result

5:49

is that Israel is very much

5:51

still on October 7th. And

5:55

I don't doubt that it would take any

5:57

nation a long time to heal. I'm

6:00

surprised though to hear that if

6:02

you turn on Israeli TV, you

6:04

would not see what we're seeing

6:06

in the US media, which is

6:08

brutal footage, a growing death

6:11

toll, and reports

6:13

about starvation, disease. Are

6:16

Israelis really not seeing that? They

6:19

do see soldiers collapsing

6:21

buildings and cleaning

6:23

out terror tunnels that were

6:25

used by Hamas. They

6:27

do see a lot of streets

6:30

that are now rubble. What

6:33

they don't see is humans

6:35

in Gaza being killed or

6:38

wounded, especially women and children.

6:40

They don't see that at all. Nothing

6:43

of the human cost that

6:45

is so horrifying.

6:48

Even if you do mention the

6:50

number of the casualties in Israel,

6:53

you always say this is the

6:55

numbers that we get from the

6:57

Hamas-controlled health ministry in Gaza. Hamas

7:00

is a terrorist organization, and you

7:02

shouldn't trust their numbers. What

7:04

they never mention is past conflicts in Gaza.

7:07

If you look at the numbers of Hamas

7:09

and you look at the numbers of the

7:11

IDF, they're roughly the

7:13

same. There is a difference if

7:15

you look at the male casualties,

7:17

16 to 50 or

7:19

something like that, the age where you can

7:22

be a militant. But if you look at

7:24

the women and children, there's not such big

7:26

a difference between the numbers that Hamas has

7:28

and the number that the

7:30

IDF releases after the war. They

7:33

just ignore that. If

7:35

you do see footage

7:38

of shirtless men in

7:40

Gaza handcuffed, they

7:42

would be regarded as terrorist

7:44

surrendering. That would be

7:46

the headline. Perhaps a day or

7:48

two later, you could see maybe in Haaretz or

7:51

in the bottom of an article that

7:53

after interrogation, the IDF

7:55

found out that most of them weren't

7:58

terrorists. But most people would get

8:00

the feeling that we captured terrorists

8:02

and the only people

8:04

still occupying northern Gaza

8:06

where the invasion started are now

8:08

terrorists, there's no citizens there, and

8:11

that's why you can bombard the

8:13

area without hesitation. Okay,

8:15

but it's 2024 and I

8:18

know Israelis are on social media.

8:21

I see TikToks from Israeli soldiers,

8:23

I see posts from Israelis

8:26

on social media. Surely

8:28

Israeli citizens are seeing footage of the

8:30

suffering of Gazans, which is all over

8:33

the internet or reports from western media.

8:35

It's hard not to find it if

8:37

you're online. So I find it hard

8:39

to believe that maybe outside of the

8:42

legacy media Israelis aren't exposed to this

8:44

stuff. Well, the power

8:46

of denial is very strong. And if

8:48

you don't want to know something, even

8:51

though it pops out that TikTok or

8:53

Telegram channel or whatever, it's

8:55

very easy to go past it

8:57

and go to a video of

9:00

a fallen soldier's family talking about

9:02

the soldier or the Israeli

9:04

victims. There's no

9:06

lack of material that

9:08

is pro-Israel and anti-Hamas.

9:11

It's just a matter of your decision. Ever

9:14

since October 7th, you've said nearly

9:16

all mainstream outlets have started to

9:19

shift towards the right or at

9:21

least have adopted more propaganda with

9:23

Channel 14, which is basically an

9:25

arm of Netanyahu's propaganda machine still

9:28

being the most extremist. Can

9:30

you give me some examples of

9:32

this wider shift? Right. If

9:35

you look at the beginning of the war,

9:37

you could see a lot of right wing

9:39

journalists saying we should have bombarded

9:43

hell out of Gaza. It doesn't

9:45

matter how many people would die. Only

9:48

after you could hear very

9:50

similar voices in mainstream media,

9:52

Channel 12, Channel 13, they

9:56

started interviewing an expert

9:58

on the media. Arab world

10:01

called Eliyahu Youssian, he's an

10:03

Iranian Jew, who explained

10:05

that in the Middle East you have to

10:07

act like you're in the Middle East. And

10:09

if that means killing 50,000 people

10:12

on the first day, regardless of who they

10:14

are, that's how you should

10:16

act because that would prove that you're

10:18

serious about keeping your citizens

10:21

alive. And then you

10:23

could hear the same logic from Channel 13's

10:26

head of the Arab affairs desk, the

10:29

Yezhez Kelly. What you

10:31

saw, you had very extreme guests

10:33

that you wouldn't see before on

10:35

the mainstream media starting popping up

10:37

on mainstream media, and also the

10:39

journalists themselves getting

10:41

more and more extreme, calling

10:44

for harsh retaliation. You

10:46

could hear there is no innocent

10:48

people in Gaza. Amit

10:50

Segal, probably the most prominent journalist in

10:52

Israel, he's the most popular journalist in

10:55

Channel 12, which is the most popular

10:57

channel in Israel, on

10:59

his Telegram channel, referred to

11:01

the Hamas or Jihad

11:03

terrorist as Nazis. And

11:06

therefore, the people who support

11:09

them are also Nazis. And

11:12

again and again, you could hear

11:14

the comparison to Dresden. If

11:16

you fight the Nazis, you have to fight

11:18

like you're fighting the Nazis. And if the

11:20

ally forces completely destroyed the

11:22

city of Dresden, then we can completely

11:24

destroy the city of Gaza because it's

11:27

100% good against 100% evil. It's

11:31

completely black and white. It's

11:33

not exactly like Dresden is

11:35

celebrated today as a discriminant

11:37

act of warfare, right? No,

11:39

it's exactly the opposite. This

11:41

is the moment that there

11:43

was no consideration of

11:45

human life, much like Hiroshima

11:48

in Nagasaki. It's mentioned

11:50

also in Israel in the past

11:52

few weeks. Saying the Americans did it so we can do

11:54

it too? Yeah, I mean,

11:57

who are you to cast doubt on

11:59

our morality? reality when you did the

12:01

same when you faced pure evil.

12:04

That's the logic. I see. Another

12:06

example of the shift that you're

12:09

talking about is Israel's top satirical

12:11

TV show, Eretz Neha Deret. In

12:14

November, it broadcast the sketch making

12:16

fun of pro-Palestinian progressives. Hi, everyone.

12:23

We are live on YouTube with Columbia

12:25

University News where everyone is

12:27

welcome. There

12:30

have been other

12:33

English skits mocking BBC

12:35

journalists for how they've

12:38

been covering the

12:45

war. Good evening from London. Here

12:50

are some news from the war

12:52

in Gaza. Israel has

12:54

bombed a hospital killing hundreds of

12:56

innocent people. And more

12:58

details are Middle East correspondent

13:00

Harry Whitegill. Good

13:03

evening, Rachel, from the illegal colony of

13:05

Tel Aviv. This was odd

13:07

for people who are familiar with the show,

13:09

I think, because Eretz Neha

13:11

Deret used to be known for

13:13

mocking Netanyahu and the Israeli government.

13:15

Is this shift symbolic as well?

13:19

They're still mocking Netanyahu, but they

13:21

are mobilized like most of the

13:23

other people in Israel to support

13:25

the war and the war effort.

13:27

If a satirical show needs

13:30

to do Hasbara, which is

13:32

Israeli propaganda, then that's what

13:34

they'll do. They're

13:36

completely with submission to explain why

13:38

the world is wrong. And we

13:40

are right. And you mentioned before

13:42

the dome of disconnection. People

13:45

in Israel are shocked that the

13:47

world doesn't see the situation like

13:49

they see it. They are shocked

13:51

and baffled. How could anyone be

13:53

angry at Israel and speaking

13:56

about atrocities that Israel does

13:59

when Hamas But yes, butchered and

14:01

raped and killed so many people in

14:03

Israel on October 7th. Because

14:06

they're still on October 7th, they don't

14:08

realize that the world saw

14:11

different images in the past few weeks.

14:13

I'm curious, the passion with which you

14:16

speak makes me think that you

14:18

inhabit a different kind of ideological

14:20

perspective. You're consuming different media than

14:22

the average Israeli. You are a

14:24

media critic, but I'm just curious

14:26

to know where you

14:28

see yourself in the media landscape. How

14:31

common is the perspective that you are sharing right now?

14:34

It's not very common. Like I said, the

14:36

Israeli left is small and getting smaller. But

14:38

if you do read Haaretz, you

14:41

get the information. And there's

14:43

still tens of thousands of

14:45

subscribers to Haaretz. A

14:47

lot of them are decision makers, people

14:49

in the government, the intellectual elite. But

14:52

I would say that this point of view

14:55

is considered fringe in Israel these days, almost

14:58

treacherous. I

15:00

want to dig in a bit

15:02

more into pro-militaristic language propaganda that

15:04

has become more common. You've

15:07

also seen claims that the IDF

15:09

has to bomb Gaza because the

15:11

entire Gazan population supports Hamas. I've

15:14

also seen a different narrative, which is that Israel

15:17

needs to save Gazans from Hamas and that

15:19

yes, they are victims, but they are trapped

15:21

there. Well, I

15:23

think what you see here is

15:25

the difference between the extreme right

15:27

and the center right in Israel.

15:29

The extreme right really treats all

15:31

of Gazans as terrorists and therefore

15:34

they should be killed. You

15:36

know, on Channel 14's homepage, they

15:38

have a counter counting the

15:40

number of Palestinians,

15:42

Gazans dying. And

15:45

it's updated regularly. The

15:47

thing is, they count everyone,

15:49

everyone as terrorists. The

15:52

number of terrorists that have been killed so far in

15:54

Gaza, it doesn't matter if it's a

15:57

child or a woman or a man or

15:59

elderly man. So that's the

16:01

extreme right. But in the center right,

16:03

there is sort of a moral conflict

16:06

about what Israel does. They

16:08

don't want to see the images. They

16:11

don't want to know the numbers. One

16:14

of the legitimization techniques

16:17

that they have to persuade themselves that Israel is

16:20

the good guy here is

16:22

that we're helping innocent Gazans

16:24

overthrow a violent dictatorship, which

16:26

is Hamas. Which of

16:28

course Hamas is a violent dictatorship. The

16:31

question is how do you help the

16:33

Gazans overthrow it? Some

16:35

of this discourse is so extreme

16:38

that it's since been cited by

16:40

South Africa in its 84-page appeal

16:42

to the International Court of Justice

16:45

alleging that Israel's military campaign in

16:47

Gaza amounts to genocide. That

16:50

hearing started at The Hague on

16:52

Thursday and Channel 14 is cited

16:54

six times in the appeal, including

16:56

the statements of a media personality

16:58

that you've identified, Eliyahu Yossen, who

17:01

said that, quote, there are no

17:03

innocents, there is no population, there

17:05

are 2.5 million terrorists.

17:08

Other journalists are quoted as

17:11

well, including David Vertheim, a

17:13

media reporter, Yehuda Schlesinger, Yannone

17:15

Magal and Zvi Yehisceli. A

17:18

recent Haaretz Abed likened their

17:21

statements to those of Radio

17:23

Rwanda. I mean, is that

17:25

an apt comparison here? Well,

17:28

if you look at the international

17:30

law, you see that media

17:32

outlets is not supposed to

17:34

promote genocidal acts. And if

17:36

you call for the destruction

17:38

of tens of thousands or

17:40

millions of Gazans, then practically

17:43

that's what you do. You

17:45

mentioned David Vertheim, who is

17:47

a media reporter. Fun fact,

17:50

he is the left-wing counterpart

17:53

in a radio program who has

17:55

to counter the right-wing anchor at

17:57

the radio program. On

18:00

October 7th, you can see the

18:03

left-wing reporter calling for a

18:05

genocide of Gaza, just like he was

18:07

on the extreme right. In

18:10

the first few weeks of the

18:12

conflict, we heard of several instances

18:14

of backlash against journalists who criticized

18:16

the Israeli government or the IDF's

18:18

actions. Government officials have

18:20

also made threatening remarks against publications

18:22

like Al Jazeera and Haaretz. What

18:25

does retribution against journalists look like

18:28

now? In the

18:30

first few weeks, it meant that you

18:32

really couldn't stand with a microphone in

18:35

an Israeli city and report what's going

18:37

on in Arabic. You

18:39

would have been harassed and probably thrown

18:41

out of the street. That

18:44

happened several dozen times

18:46

in the first few weeks, kind of more calm

18:48

right now. You mentioned

18:51

Al Jazeera? Yeah, that's right. Al Jazeera.

18:54

Well, the Israeli government passed

18:56

emergency regulations in order

18:59

to shut down Al Jazeera in Israel.

19:02

But that was a bit of a farce. First

19:04

of all, the regulation says that

19:06

you can block the access to

19:09

Al Jazeera or any other foreign

19:11

media outlet for

19:14

Israelis surfing the web. But

19:16

that's a very simple to bypass.

19:18

And that's not how people see

19:20

Al Jazeera. They watch it on

19:22

satellite. Also,

19:25

the emergency regulations stated that you

19:27

could force a closure of media

19:30

outlets' offices and confiscate its equipment.

19:33

The thing is that the

19:35

Minister of Communications really wanted

19:37

to shut down Al Jazeera.

19:40

But the Prime Minister Netanyahu wouldn't let

19:42

it happen, probably because Qatar, which

19:45

funds Al Jazeera, is

19:47

part of the effort to negotiate with

19:49

Hamas to release the Israeli hostages. So

19:52

what the Israeli government finally did was

19:55

take the same emergency provisions and

19:57

enforce them on any other way.

20:00

El Miedin, which is a pro-Hamas Lebanese

20:02

channel. So now

20:04

if you want to watch El Miedin

20:06

through the Israeli internet, you have

20:08

to go to your Chrome

20:10

browser settings and press a few buttons and

20:12

then you'll be able to see it. And

20:15

also, since they don't

20:17

have any office in Israel or

20:19

equipment, there was nothing to close

20:22

or seize. You've mentioned

20:24

that this reactionary stance is something

20:26

that happens time and time again

20:28

in Israeli media. Can

20:30

you tell me a little bit about the

20:32

precedent for this type of reaction among Israeli

20:35

journalists? Sure, it's not the first time

20:37

that we're in war in Israel. It's not the first

20:39

time that we're in war with Gaza. It

20:42

is really the first

20:44

time that there has been such

20:46

a heavy blow to the state of

20:49

Israel and such a

20:52

feeling of existential threat

20:54

to every citizen. So

20:56

the reaction is the same but more extreme.

20:59

I'll give you an example. I watched a

21:01

few days ago a reporter

21:03

called Dana Weiss. She's one of the

21:05

leading commentators on Channel 12 in Israel.

21:08

And she was speaking after

21:10

one of the previous rounds of violence in

21:13

Gaza, I think it was 2014

21:15

or something like that, about the

21:17

role of the media. It was

21:19

in the Tel Aviv University, a nice

21:21

panel about what we did right and

21:23

wrong. And she said we

21:25

didn't show enough of human casualties in

21:28

Gaza. And I know that we should

21:30

have done it. And I hope that we'll do it

21:32

more the next round. So

21:35

here we are in the next round. And

21:37

there's showing even less of what's going on

21:39

on the other side of the border. So

21:43

it's really depressing that things are only

21:45

getting worse from that point of view.

21:48

As you've mentioned, Netanyahu and

21:50

some of the high-ranking military

21:52

officials haven't really given us

21:54

an official clear vision for

21:57

what the future of Gaza

21:59

and Palestine Palestinian life could look like.

22:02

But there have been other clues

22:04

about the pressure that Netanyahu is

22:06

under and the belief of some

22:09

high-ranking members of his government. The

22:11

Wall Street Journal reported that finance

22:13

minister Bitza'al El Smotrit, who is

22:15

head of the far-right religious Zionist

22:17

party, recently said that Israel should

22:19

rebuild Jewish settlements in Gaza that

22:22

were uprooted in 2005, and that

22:25

his country should encourage, quote, voluntary

22:27

migration of Gaza's residents to countries

22:29

that will agree to absorb them

22:31

as refugees. National

22:34

Security Minister Itamar Ben Gevir, a

22:36

leader from the settler movement and

22:38

head of another far-right party, the

22:40

Jewish Power Party, said that, quote,

22:42

encouraging emigration could help end the

22:44

war. And these are not the

22:47

first time that we've heard prominent

22:49

members of the Israeli government floating

22:51

the idea of resettling Palestinians. So

22:53

how are these statements being metabolized

22:55

by the Israeli press? National Security

22:57

Minister They're completely legitimized and

23:00

very widely published.

23:03

You should remember that everyone

23:05

believes that there will be an election

23:07

after the war is over. And

23:10

you mentioned Bitza'al El Smotrit, right now

23:12

his numbers at the polls are very

23:14

low. So of course he wants to

23:17

attract more voters from his base, which

23:19

is the far-right. And

23:21

that's part of the problem, because you would

23:24

like the military to do what it does

23:26

in order to keep you secure without

23:28

any political interest. National Security Minister

23:30

I guess I'm trying to understand

23:32

this type of rhetoric sets off

23:34

alarm bells among American officials.

23:37

They have said, no, no, no, that is not on

23:39

the table. Yes, these were once

23:41

fringe politicians, but they are very much close

23:43

to Netanyahu. And I'm trying to understand how

23:45

widely held the belief is that this is

23:47

one, the right thing to do to Palestinians,

23:49

and two is even really possible. Well,

23:53

if you look at the polls

23:55

in Israel, there's a lot of

23:57

support for encouraging willful immigration of

23:59

Gaza. Nobody really

24:01

discusses what that means, what is

24:03

willful immigration of two

24:06

million people. Netanyahu

24:08

was forced to form the

24:10

extreme white government with those

24:13

two ministers because nobody else

24:15

would agree to

24:17

be in his government because he's

24:19

a crooked liar and you can't

24:22

trust him. So he doesn't

24:25

have a lot of choices but

24:27

to keep his coalition

24:30

together and allow

24:32

those far-right fascist

24:34

politicians express their

24:36

ideology and it's a trap. A finger trap

24:39

that the more you resist, the harder it

24:41

is to get out of it? Exactly. The

24:44

consequences of forming a coalition

24:46

with the most extreme elements

24:49

of the Israeli right? Yes,

24:51

exactly. In

24:55

the American media, at least, we've seen

24:57

reports that Israel plans to scale back

24:59

some of its offensive, at least in

25:01

northern Gaza, following pressure from the American

25:04

government. For instance, Netanyahu has said that

25:06

Israel doesn't intend to have, say, a

25:08

permanent occupation in Gaza. But,

25:11

as many outlets have observed, Israeli media and officials are

25:13

telling a different story about the next phase of the

25:15

war. And this seems to

25:17

be a larger pattern of the

25:20

kind of information that Netanyahu

25:22

gives to American Western journalists

25:25

as opposed to what he says to

25:27

an Israeli audience. So what are you

25:29

all hearing about the coming months? Well,

25:32

our prime minister has two

25:34

Twitter accounts or ex-accounts. One

25:37

is very dignified, where he published

25:39

his video of himself saying we

25:41

don't want to conquer Gaza or

25:43

expel the population. The

25:46

other ex-account is where all the

25:48

populist material is published, and he

25:50

speaks a very different language there

25:52

and addresses a very different audience,

25:54

the Israeli audience. We

25:57

do hear, also in Israeli media, that there is a new

25:59

form of cooperation. phase, starting to

26:01

evacuate parts of the military

26:03

reserves that were drafted on

26:06

October 7th. But

26:08

what nobody is talking about is what

26:10

will happen in the day after. Netanyahu

26:13

apparently doesn't want to discuss

26:15

that. And it

26:17

is a cause of concern when you

26:19

go fight a war

26:22

without knowing exactly what the

26:24

purpose is. Of course, the

26:27

purpose is to keep Israelis safe. But

26:29

what would happen after you collapse

26:31

Hamas? If that's even

26:33

possible. Exactly. We've talked

26:35

about a lot of dismal coverage,

26:37

extremist rhetoric that has been normalized

26:39

in the Israeli press. What

26:43

would you like to see Israeli

26:45

journalists do differently in the coming

26:47

months? What role can or should

26:49

the press play in helping save

26:51

lives, cool extremist rhetoric,

26:54

and contain this war? Well,

26:56

first of all, just start showing

26:58

what's going on in

27:01

Gaza and not only the

27:03

horrible suffering in Israel

27:05

post October 7th, but the horrible suffering

27:07

in Gaza as well. There

27:09

are journalists to do that, but not most of

27:11

them. Secondly, critically

27:14

reporting on the Israeli military.

27:16

I think it's the patriotic

27:18

thing to do during the

27:20

war, because if you

27:22

airbrush all the problems, they

27:24

won't get fixed in time

27:27

and you'll eventually run into

27:29

them again. So

27:32

the military correspondence should

27:34

grow a spine and

27:36

not report only what

27:38

the IDF spokesperson gives

27:40

them. I would also

27:42

hope that Israeli journalists ask these

27:44

questions to Israeli politicians. I mean,

27:46

they do ask them about the

27:48

consequences of war. What will happen?

27:51

Are you taking decisions based

27:53

on political interest or not?

27:56

But they don't force the prime

27:58

minister and... Minister

28:00

of Defense to answer

28:03

questions about the human

28:05

cost of their policies.

28:08

Are you hopeful these will

28:10

see some of these improvements soon? No,

28:14

but you know it's kind

28:16

of like ironic that the

28:18

more the war will go

28:21

on, the more the Israeli

28:23

IDF gets trapped in the

28:25

mud of Gaza, then

28:27

there will be more critical voices coming

28:30

out. I should imagine we saw it

28:32

before in Lebanon in the early 80s.

28:35

That's the usual way that things

28:38

go. In the beginning of the

28:40

war, you're not allowed to criticize

28:42

the army or the government, but as

28:44

things go by and more and more soldiers

28:46

die and there's no clear

28:48

image in the horizon, there's

28:51

more legitimacy to asking the tough

28:53

questions. You've

28:55

made a strong case that

28:57

Israelis don't understand what's taking

28:59

place in Gaza, the damage

29:02

that has been done by

29:04

its military's bombardment. Is there

29:06

anything you think that American audiences

29:08

don't understand about what's happening in

29:11

Israel that you would like to

29:13

communicate? Well basically that.

29:15

Basically that the Israelis are inside

29:18

a bubble and are

29:20

unaware of A, what's

29:22

going on in Gaza and B,

29:25

how is it seen in the entire

29:27

world? So when

29:30

you speak with your Israeli friend

29:32

or relative or whatever, you should

29:34

remind yourself that you're speaking

29:36

with someone who is in a

29:38

parallel universe, who does not

29:40

see what you see and is not aware of

29:43

the facts that you are aware of. Orin,

29:46

thank you very much. Thank

29:48

you. Orin, Perceco is a

29:50

staff writer at the 7th

29:52

Eye, an independent investigative magazine

29:54

in Israel. Thanks

29:58

for listening to the Midweek Podcast. I'm Mike

30:00

Alone.