0:03

Welcome to On the Soul's Terms podcast

0:05

, a weaving of astrology

0:07

, greek mythology and depth psychology

0:10

. I'm Chris Skidmore

0:12

, an astrologer , psychotherapist and craniocytorist

0:14

therapist living in Ubud , bali

0:16

. Today

0:26

, I'm honored to be joined again by the astrologer

0:28

Jason Holley . As

0:30

you're about to hear , jason's work is dedicated

0:32

to reinvigorating a relationship

0:34

with the animate world through participation

0:37

with the zodiac as a circle of

0:39

creatures , creatures that

0:41

are alive inside of ourselves , in

0:43

our relationships and wandering through

0:45

our world . In

0:48

this first part of two episodes , we discussed

0:50

Jason's worldview and his evolving work

0:52

, and how astrology can help to give

0:54

us a full , felt sense , experience

0:56

of being embedded in the natural world

0:58

. Stay tuned for part

1:00

two , where we'll explore the myth of Artemis

1:03

and Orion for the Scorpio New

1:05

Moon soon . Well

1:14

, jason Holley , welcome back to the show .

1:17

Ah , thank you . Good to be back .

1:18

Yeah , it's great to see you again . Thanks a lot for

1:21

agreeing to come back

1:23

. When did we do our last

1:25

one ? About a year or so ago .

1:28

Yeah , I think a little over year . I think it might

1:30

have been July or August of

1:32

last year .

1:33

Yeah Well , it's really great to see you again

1:37

. I thought we'd just start in

1:40

kind of maybe a bit of an unusual place to start

1:43

, but it's an unusual time

1:45

. But maybe

1:48

we could start with just a little

1:50

bit about what you're up to these days

1:53

. I get the sense of this evolving

1:55

nature of your work and

1:58

I'd love to hear what

2:01

you're up to now , what you're

2:03

offering into the world of astrology

2:06

, psychology , mythology , depth

2:09

work , all the things that you do .

2:16

Well , I think you covered it

2:18

. Those are the passions , I think , that guide

2:20

my work . But

2:23

in all seriousness , yeah

2:26

, my work at

2:28

this point is really about

2:30

consciousness , and astrology

2:33

as

2:35

a way of experiencing the

2:39

fullness of who we are and

2:41

particularly as a way of

2:43

providing habitat to

2:46

all the different creatures

2:49

that are in zodiac

2:51

means circle of animals . To me

2:54

, that's an immediate statement about each

2:57

of us is a circle of animals . Then

2:59

also , we are part of all these circles

3:01

of animals , circles of relations . That's

3:05

an astrological worldview , that's

3:07

what astrology proposes

3:09

just by its existence

3:12

. The work that I do is really

3:15

about

3:17

helping people to have that full

3:19

, felt sense , experience of that , really

3:22

to

3:26

live and participate with these

3:28

creatures that are within us and

3:30

live and participate in this world that we're in

3:32

, out here

3:34

, in

3:37

a way that is engaged

3:40

, alive , dynamic

3:44

, expressive . The

3:46

work I do is very , at

3:49

this time it's very experiential

3:51

. It's very much a desire

3:53

to not so much to talk

3:55

about the gods or talk about

3:58

the symbols , but to let them

4:00

speak , and speak

4:06

a lot of ways . They , of course , speak with words

4:08

, but they speak in how we move our

4:10

bodies , they speak in our sex lives

4:12

, they speak in our relationships , in

4:15

imagery and symbol

4:17

. There are so many ways that they speak

4:20

Really

4:23

. The biggest thing , I think , is the desire

4:25

to engage

4:28

in a direct way with

4:30

the stories , with the figures

4:32

of myth , with the images

4:35

in the sky and

4:37

to have that

4:39

full experience , really

4:43

be in the dream

4:45

and also actively

4:47

dreaming the dream .

4:50

I think this is why I've always been so

4:52

drawn to your work , in a way

4:54

, because that feeling

4:56

of the

4:58

chart coming out of the stars and

5:01

into the felt experience

5:03

, even off

5:05

of the paper maybe is a better way to say that

5:07

, because we tend to . It's a funny

5:09

thing that we're doing , where

5:11

we're looking down at these symbols

5:13

on this paper as

5:17

though that's the thing that we're , because

5:19

it's a method of getting in touch

5:21

with the thing that we're trying to get in touch with . But it

5:24

can get us stuck . There's so many ways

5:26

I feel

5:29

that astrology

5:31

as its art

5:33

form can get stuck in

5:36

. This is this and

5:39

only this kind of thing the paper

5:41

draws us in , or the symbols on the paper draw us

5:43

in . To hear you talk of

5:46

there's a word that you've used a few times

5:48

of complexifying , which

5:51

I really love , but it's a lot of complexifying

5:53

, which means like , yeah

5:56

, it's . If each of these symbols

5:58

actually represents a full

6:00

formed person

6:03

, then

6:05

you're going to have to get to know that person over time

6:07

, like any other person you know

6:09

, and there's this sense of . I

6:12

don't know who that is actually . I'm

6:14

going to have to engage in multiple

6:17

ways in order to get to know who that is

6:19

. Even though that's something inside of me or

6:21

references some part of me , it

6:24

may be I don't know that person much at all

6:26

and may

6:28

only start to know that person

6:30

when he or she is

6:33

interacting with someone

6:35

else's version of that or someone else's opposition

6:38

to that , or someone else's square or trying

6:40

to that , and then I can feel it coming alive

6:42

and so I think it really speaks . Your work

6:44

to me really speaks of the interrelationality

6:47

of existence and consciousness

6:49

, and astrology

6:51

is a beautiful way

6:53

to bring that to life

6:55

, or to bring

6:57

us to life or our interaction with

6:59

it . And

7:02

so , yeah , I see your work as

7:06

all of those things you know . We have that relationship

7:08

to process , work together and definitely

7:10

in the dreaming and bringing

7:12

things forward . And it's just this rare thing

7:15

that as soon as I kind of encountered your work

7:17

a few years ago , it was a

7:19

sense of like this thing not exactly

7:21

sure what it is that I'm pointing to when

7:24

I say this thing , but you know like excited

7:26

by it .

7:28

Right , I mean , I love what you said

7:30

at the beginning there about coming off

7:32

of a piece of paper and back

7:34

under the sky and into

7:37

the mystery . You know

7:39

, and you know not

7:41

reducing it to this chart

7:44

with all of its lines . And you

7:47

know , one of the things that I often say

7:49

to people is that , you know , at

7:51

some point , somewhere in the

7:53

first millennium BC

7:55

, astrology divorced myth and

7:57

began a very troubled affair with philosophy

8:00

. And

8:03

you know , and myth was , you

8:05

know , the mother of astrology

8:07

and it was just cast off

8:09

that thing because it's so

8:11

complex . And you

8:13

know , there's a million versions of the stories

8:16

and they all seem to contradict and move all

8:18

over the place and of course that's

8:20

the much better reality

8:22

of psyche and life as

8:24

a human than a set

8:26

of straight little lines . And you know

8:28

all the things that philosophy brought

8:30

with its little tables and geometries

8:33

and the troplicities and all

8:35

these things which make some forms

8:38

of storytelling possible but

8:40

often really constrain

8:42

the imagination . And

8:45

so a lot of the work for me is like re-embedding

8:48

technique and all these distinctions

8:51

in astrology , re-embedding them in the soil

8:53

that birthed them . You know

8:56

, in myth , but also in our

8:58

bodies , our dreaming bodies and

9:00

in our earth , that you know

9:02

, the dreaming earth it's

9:04

like in our relations . You

9:06

know , to me that's the sets of fields

9:09

that birthed astrology

9:11

and also , you know , gave

9:13

us these sort of techniques and notions

9:15

, but it's like the things

9:18

kind of declare themselves separate and

9:20

then you're kind of , too , you're removed

9:22

from the direction lived experience . So

9:24

, over and over again , what I'm hoping to

9:26

do is , you know , re-embed

9:28

, and so you

9:31

know , my work kind of has three

9:33

, you know , dimensions that

9:35

, as best I can name them anyway , they're all

9:37

kind of overlapping , but you

9:39

know , one of them is , you

9:42

know , what I would , might , we might , call mythic

9:44

archetypal . You know where it's

9:46

really about connecting

9:49

with story and with , the

9:51

most importantly

9:53

, listening for story . You

9:56

know , like , like learning how to hear

9:58

the stories in our lives

10:00

, learning how to track them , recognize

10:03

them , to feel the touch of the God

10:05

when they are touching you and showing you that through

10:08

a situation in your life , and

10:10

, and so a big part of my work

10:13

is learning the stories , sharing the stories

10:15

and also getting in and living

10:17

the stories , meaning working

10:20

with image , working with dreaming . You

10:23

know things like , you know imagining

10:26

the story from different figures , perspectives

10:29

, and you know writing creatively

10:31

, or you know , this is the kind of work I do with people , to sort

10:33

of enter the myth , not again , not

10:35

just to talk about it , but to , you

10:38

know , be in the sun in it . Or

10:41

you could say , kind of like with the sky , be

10:43

under the sky and be in

10:45

the sky versus looking at

10:47

it on the chart . So

10:50

there's this mythic , archetypal orientation

10:54

. Another

10:56

place that's really alive in

10:58

my work is what I would call relational

11:02

psychological . You

11:04

know that really I

11:07

was a therapist for a long time and

11:09

and particularly an orientation

11:11

to therapy that's very relational , and understand

11:14

psyche as a that psyche

11:16

relationalizes . You know , like we , often

11:18

other people carry our

11:21

psyche with us , you know , in

11:23

a sense , and and so

11:25

the relational field and learning how again

11:27

, to be in it , to track

11:30

it to , you know , to learn

11:32

some of the ways that some of these creatures

11:35

within us move , a little bit

11:37

like shape shifting , or even the

11:39

archetype of the hunt , and we're going to speak

11:41

later about Scorpio and Artemis

11:43

and Orion , who were the thing they did

11:46

together most of all was hunt . And

11:48

but my understanding , and

11:50

in fact this is where they break , but you

11:52

know the two of them , but you know , I think

11:55

of the hunt in ways that

11:57

land based cultures would pursue

11:59

, that where they , you know they dress

12:02

as the animal , they , you know , move

12:05

like the animal , they enter into

12:07

a sympathetic , you know , resonance

12:09

with this creature and

12:11

and you know , hunt is only one

12:13

part of that overall relatedness

12:16

, and so part of this

12:18

mode is to get in there

12:20

and become the one who hunts

12:22

, you know , and , but you have to kind of know

12:24

their creatures experience from the inside

12:27

. And and

12:29

then the third . That kind of goes to the third , like you

12:31

know , orientation or set

12:34

of skills , or there are skills and method to

12:36

this , you know , which is

12:38

what I would call experiential , immersive

12:40

, and so that's where I

12:42

am really . You know , I've been doing these

12:44

, this kind of experiential teaching and

12:46

retreats and workshops for

12:49

, you know , 10 , 15

12:51

years , and and

12:54

so one of the things I'm now doing

12:56

is teaching people how to do that

12:58

with astrology . You know , so you know

13:01

teaching , group work

13:03

, group dynamics , you know site

13:06

methods drawn from psycho

13:08

drama and many ages like that , all

13:10

of which are

13:13

. The point is to be able to share this , because

13:15

I , I imagine you

13:17

know a world

13:19

where we have many of us who are invoking

13:22

the , you know helping people to

13:24

invoke and experience

13:26

their lives more dynamically , or

13:28

that that works I don't know what the right word is , but

13:31

you know in a participative

13:33

way and be able to hold the complexity

13:35

of our world and then our

13:38

inner worlds and our outer world , like we

13:40

need something big enough , you know , like astrology

13:42

is big enough . That's that's the thing

13:45

I feel like astrology is big enough and

13:47

its stories are big

13:49

enough and and wild

13:51

enough to really

13:54

you know hold or

13:56

describe or you

13:58

know engage the full how complex

14:01

a human life is .

14:04

Yeah , and how complex psyche itself

14:07

is . You know , that's why , that's why

14:10

I long ago named the

14:12

what I do and this podcast on the souls

14:14

terms solving psyche

14:16

, because I just really wanted to do

14:19

something to speak to that or have

14:21

that speak through me . So I kind of like , by

14:24

giving it this name , insured

14:27

that in a way , because then I would

14:29

have to keep coming back to that idea

14:31

that it's , that all of this is on the souls

14:33

term , so have to keep coming

14:35

and returning , and returning and returning to that

14:37

, because it's so easy to make that split

14:40

, the first century BC

14:42

split . We

14:44

can , you know , make that split again

14:47

and again . Right , it's like it's always ready

14:49

to be made . It feels it's not something

14:51

that happened sometime in the past . And you

14:54

know , and and it's in some ways it's okay

14:56

to make that split every now and again , and

14:58

oh right yeah traverse it

15:01

find your way into that . That . You

15:03

know , almost like an amine being taken up

15:06

and and now this is all

15:08

there is , and then and then return back

15:11

down and get , get back down here

15:13

, but yeah , just to sort of get

15:15

those layers . So there's the mythic layer

15:17

and the relational

15:20

layer and then the immersive

15:22

layer . Would that be a good ?

15:23

way to sort of experience or immersive . Yeah , that's right

15:25

.

15:25

Yeah , I think that's right , yeah , and

15:27

so how does that so tell us about

15:29

? You know you were just in France

15:31

and you know you've got these things building

15:34

around that . What does it look like ?

15:37

well , yeah , it

15:40

looks rather different every time

15:43

, but the main thing

15:45

it looks like is the invocation

15:48

of the field and really

15:50

entering into like what I

15:52

often think of as a custodial relationship

15:54

, you know , with story and sky

15:57

, with this field and with the relational

15:59

and interpersonal field also

16:01

. By when I say

16:03

interpersonal , and I mean human

16:06

to human , but I also mean all these other people

16:08

we are living with , ancestors

16:11

, you know , plants , animals , the land

16:13

, the winds , you know

16:15

it's really a very

16:18

conscious effort to move

16:21

into on the soul's terms , you know . To

16:24

take what you were just saying , like , when

16:26

you said that , it reminded me of

16:29

the

16:32

way that in

16:34

the beginning of ceremony or ritual

16:37

, you draw

16:39

a circle . Sometimes you define

16:41

an area and you say everything

16:43

that occurs in here is the

16:45

God speaking . Of course that's true everywhere

16:48

in life . Right , life is always ceremony

16:50

, but you're really naming

16:52

that . We're going to really understand , we're

16:54

going to keep coming back to understanding

16:56

whatever occurs in that field . That's

16:59

what that is and it's not that different

17:01

. You and I were talking about play therapy , very

17:03

similar to a sandbox with children , you know

17:05

, or a volleyball court . You

17:07

know , I'm a volleyball person

17:09

and you

17:12

know we draw something and we say

17:14

everything that happens inside here is competition

17:16

and we are , you know , opponents and

17:19

that's everything that occurs . And

17:22

so you know , that's what

17:25

happens at a retreat like the one I did in

17:27

France . Is we really , you

17:29

know , consciously invoke that field

17:31

and do

17:34

a lot of things initially to really

17:36

sort of set that and understand

17:38

what we're up to . You

17:41

know , at that particular retreat the theme

17:43

was astrology and love , and

17:46

I don't mean like love , like a

17:48

sinistry or , you know , astrology of relationships

17:51

or romance . It was really about

17:53

, you know , astrology as a way

17:57

of loving and

17:59

the way that I you know , just

18:01

to the extent one can , you know , dare to

18:03

define love . The

18:05

way that I was naming it

18:07

is that it was about , you know , the

18:10

capacity to attune to and really

18:12

understand the reality of another and

18:14

then to extend oneself for their

18:16

benefit . You know

18:18

Audrey Lord , you know the

18:21

queer black feminist poet . You

18:24

know she has this great line

18:26

that says the aim of each thing that

18:28

we do is to make our

18:30

lives and the lives of our children richer

18:33

and more possible . And

18:35

that is , that

18:37

was a definition of love . And then

18:39

she doesn't say that's a definition

18:42

of love . That's what I realized , I meant . You

18:45

know I didn't know what I meant when I created this

18:47

retreat title , but that

18:49

was what I began to know as we approached the retreat

18:52

. And that's kind of what

18:54

astrology is for me as a way to make life

18:56

richer and more possible . And

19:00

so at the retreat I know I'm not

19:03

really answering your question , but

19:05

we will , you know , create that kind

19:07

of field and then do

19:10

a lot of things that are really about

19:12

, you know

19:15

, inviting , invoking

19:18

, hearing , the presence

19:20

of the archetypes or the animals

19:22

or the gods , however we are naming that

19:25

, you know . So , for

19:28

instance , what we did first at that retreat

19:30

and it might not be what we do

19:32

at everyone is everybody , most

19:35

everyone , was coming from somewhere else and

19:39

no one had been born where we were and

19:42

a couple people lived there , and

19:44

so the first thing we did was relocation

19:47

charts . I gave everyone a relocation

19:49

chart and for people who don't know

19:51

, you know

19:54

, all that means is , at

19:56

the very same moment that you were born , you

19:58

look at the sky over the place that

20:00

you want to relocate to , and

20:03

so you're seeing the same sky , but a

20:06

different part of it , right , just all in different

20:08

places . So the signs

20:10

all say the same , the houses change , emphasis

20:13

changes , and

20:16

that was I shared that with everyone in

20:18

order just to have a beginning , to

20:20

have some images of like who might

20:23

be coming forward more during this time . You

20:25

know , maybe suddenly Saturn

20:27

, who was , you know , kind of in the 12th has

20:29

moved to the mid-heaven or to

20:31

the ascendant or wherever . And

20:34

you wonder , you know , does this mean

20:36

Saturn might find a little more habitat

20:39

here in Provence and others

20:41

might find less . And

20:43

so just a beginning to , you

20:46

know , begin to feel what

20:48

might be wanting to come forward , and

20:52

then trying to listen to

20:54

what might be coming forward in the field . So

20:56

when people are introducing

20:59

themselves , I ask

21:01

people to share you know their own

21:03

, like someone from their love lineage

21:05

, you know someone who talked to them about how to love

21:07

, and so the themes

21:10

will just start to naturally emerge . You know they

21:12

just begin to constolate and

21:15

then you know they will also remind

21:17

us of astrological images . So then

21:19

we find ourselves just naturally drifting

21:21

to a myth or a story

21:23

. I might share it , just

21:26

because I happen to know a lot of them

21:28

, but others in the group also . Where

21:30

are they led ? And then from there

21:32

, what image catches someone ? And so we

21:34

really we begin to

21:36

be in a conscious

21:39

participation with the field . That is

21:41

always , you know

21:43

, we're giving to it . When we name the images

21:45

and share them and embody them , I think we're

21:47

giving to that field that's

21:49

what I mean by custodial and

21:51

that we're also receiving so much

21:53

more , you know , than we could even give

21:55

. You know , there's just , and so we're really

21:58

in that , and so they really take their

22:00

own form over their course of a few days

22:02

. The kinds of things we're doing

22:04

we do , you know , we'll make

22:07

art at different times of themes

22:10

that are coming up , or planets or whatever

22:12

it might be . We will do what's called astrodrama

22:15

, and

22:18

really I don't I'm going to rename that

22:20

at some point , but it's really just

22:22

applying action methods to

22:24

the charts , so letting people , you

22:27

know , embody the planets . We'll

22:30

do dance and you

22:32

know , embodiment in that way , and

22:35

you know , we do a lot of different

22:37

ways to connect with

22:39

it Storytelling

22:42

, writing prompts , and

22:44

then we do , we end up in modes

22:46

of ceremony . For instance , at this

22:49

retreat , about

22:51

three or four days in , it became clear that many

22:53

people were carrying a lot of grief and

22:56

so we had a funeral

22:58

. You know , we did a funeral

23:00

by the fire pit that was there

23:02

. We

23:05

also did a little pilgrimage . We went to

23:07

the Mary Magdalene's Cave , where

23:09

she was said to have spent the last

23:11

30 years of her life in meditation , and

23:14

we went to the Chauvet Caves . You know the Chauvet

23:17

Cave which is the oldest prehistoric

23:19

art , oldest cave

23:21

with prehistoric art of

23:23

all these animals . So

23:26

we also visited that place and

23:29

then we're constantly , you know

23:31

, connecting with the sky

23:33

and her stories throughout

23:36

. Right , you know , we realized , and you

23:38

know I didn't even think about it , planning all

23:40

these cave trips . And then it was like

23:42

, oh , you know , in our group chart , you know , pluto

23:44

was at the very root , you know , right

23:46

at the IC Of course we had to

23:48

go to some caves , you

23:50

know no other way , and

23:54

so we did that . At one point we

23:56

actually played the group's chart , you know , and every

23:59

planet in the chart we had 16 people

24:01

, so everyone was in one

24:03

except for one person who was observing

24:05

. You've got to keep some person

24:07

out , otherwise you're going to be absorbed

24:09

, and

24:12

you know . So it's all of that and

24:14

teaching people how to skillfully do

24:16

this too , you know , not just going in

24:19

, and that's why I want to rename the Astrodrama

24:21

thing , because in the astrology world there's people who say they're

24:23

doing Astrodrama and it just

24:25

feels like a lot of you know it's

24:28

fun maybe , but it's

24:30

not especially skillful . You know

24:32

there's skillful ways to . You

24:34

know respect , honor , engage

24:37

, but also know how to have

24:39

space to go slow , you

24:43

know . So there's in

24:45

these retreats we're often

24:47

at three levels . You know we're in , we're all

24:49

in , and then we're sharing about

24:52

what it was like and we're still kind of in

24:54

. And then we often go meta at a third level

24:56

to talk about process

24:58

. You know how did we do what we did

25:00

and how can we keep doing

25:02

it . Anyway , that's a long thing . I could talk about

25:04

that retreat for a long time because I

25:06

like the participants who I still

25:09

see on our WhatsApp group that was we

25:11

created a month ago when we wrapped the retreat

25:13

and they're all still talking to

25:15

each other and you know , there's just so much

25:17

to integrate from that type of experience

25:19

, so sorry to make you

25:21

have to hold some more , but

25:24

it was incredible and they are

25:27

like this . This type of work

25:29

, you know , don't always do it for eight days , like

25:31

that one , but even

25:34

, you know , one day workshop , or

25:36

I'm going to do a class on the Odyssey and

25:39

experiential reading group for

25:41

like seven weeks and we'll read the

25:43

Odyssey and then we'll engage it experientially

25:46

by embodying figures in the myth and

25:48

making some art

25:50

and connecting it to astrology archetypes

25:53

that are all over it . So

25:56

it's that kind of thing , you know , it's really getting

25:59

in there , but with with

26:01

respect , with you know . You

26:04

know , and

26:07

emphasizing listening , really

26:10

really seeking to connect with

26:13

the , with the beings

26:15

that we are , and

26:17

to connect with them rather

26:20

than talk about them . It's not that

26:22

talking about them can also be fun , kind

26:24

of the way you might reflect on a friendship with

26:26

some . You know , you might talk about your relationship

26:29

with someone else and

26:31

that can be meaningful . But if all you're ever

26:33

doing is talking about the relationship

26:35

, you

26:37

know you're not in it and so

26:39

it's grounded in living

26:42

in it and going through it so

26:45

that when you're speaking about it , you're , you

26:48

know you're . It's a dialectical , you know . You're

26:50

kind of coming out , like you said , like there

26:52

are moments when separating and it

26:54

is meaningful , so

26:58

so that's the thing , but it's really

27:01

it's teaching a habit of perception

27:03

and engagement that is really

27:06

lacking in trying

27:08

to teach symbolic consciousness , like

27:10

what is it to be in

27:12

, in , in conscious relation with

27:14

symbolism or with gods ? And

27:18

you know how do we do that ? And there

27:20

are some house , you know there are , there are

27:23

. Most of the house have to do with slowing down

27:25

mostly , which I should do right now .

27:29

Not at all . It

27:33

almost feels like a like

27:37

forgotten art

27:39

forms or something . It feels like a you

27:42

know the . The work that you're engaged in , the work

27:44

that I feel like I'm engaged in , too , is a

27:47

time traveling kind of a device

27:49

, right . It's kind of like we

27:51

have to just sneak back behind

27:53

before that time , that

27:55

one BCE moment

27:58

, and sneak in there , because

28:00

there's all sorts of barriers to that

28:02

, and , of course , this isn't in chronological

28:04

time , this is in , maybe , kairos

28:07

time or whatever we would . However , we would

28:09

imagine that and sneaking

28:12

into that temple and going like

28:14

, oh , this is , this is how reality

28:16

is , and then trying to bring it

28:18

back in a way . You

28:20

know , this is how I am experiencing

28:22

it right now , as you're talking about it , because I'm

28:24

even thinking about , like

28:27

, sitting down with someone you haven't

28:29

met and going through a reading we were talking about

28:31

it before coming on air , right Of like what that

28:34

is ? Like , what are we doing ? What are

28:36

we ? I can never quite answer that what we're doing

28:38

, right , but you start with like , oh

28:40

hi , I'm me and this is what I do

28:42

, and you give you a little blurb and then what are you bringing

28:45

? And so you're meeting as

28:47

far as , like , this is me and what I do , and this is you

28:49

and what you're bringing . Here's

28:51

a chart and then some symbols , and

28:53

just like tapping on a few symbols , but

28:56

I think always we're we're

28:58

in a state of waiting for that

29:00

moment when the chart becomes alive . And

29:03

then it's and then there's nothing to do right the

29:05

chart . At that moment it's like that's

29:08

when our work to me is like it's the easiest

29:10

work imaginable and it

29:12

. But in that first moment it's like there's

29:15

a bit of an anxiety for me still

29:17

today about , like , is it going to happen

29:19

with the chart come to life ?

29:22

Will it come ?

29:22

to the table with us and will it enter

29:24

the room ? Will we be experiencing this whole

29:27

thing here , even though it's just the two of us and

29:30

you know that moment when it happens , which generally

29:32

it happens , you know , which is the miracle

29:34

of the work , I think , because there is something of

29:36

the sacred and the invocation , as

29:38

you say , like calling something in , and

29:41

then the charts like it wants to speak

29:43

. Actually , this is the it desires to

29:45

to be spoken and heard and felt

29:47

and experienced , and and

29:50

because of that , I think it's just setting a

29:52

context , context for that to

29:54

happen . You know , I used to yeah

29:56

, like I used to do , I

30:00

was really moved by a constellation

30:02

thing . It was actually not called family constellations

30:04

, the thing I was introduced to it was called

30:06

intention constellations , and so you would

30:08

state your intention and

30:10

then people would play out each word of your

30:12

intention . That that was how . So

30:15

someone would be the I , because usually there'd be an

30:17

I there and someone would be . The want , you

30:19

know , is that says like I want to experience

30:22

more love in my life , and so someone's playing

30:24

love , someone's playing life , someone's

30:26

playing I , someone's playing want it

30:29

was .

30:30

It was amazing what happened out of that , and

30:32

so I was really moved by that .

30:33

When I came to Bali , they asked me to do

30:35

workshops at this yoga studio

30:38

I was working at and I was like , yeah , okay

30:40

, well , let me consider what I

30:42

would want to offer . So I , I did basically

30:45

what I would call soul constellations

30:47

, which was which was I

30:49

didn't have people's charts . I actually felt

30:51

it was better to not have their charts and

30:54

just somebody's playing Mars and somebody

30:57

playing Pluto and something you know . I

30:59

sort of I just

31:01

go through maybe an hour of because

31:03

you have to teach what they are first , which

31:05

it's similar to the session

31:08

, right , similar to the reading , where firstly

31:10

there's like having to arrive at the same

31:12

place , but

31:15

then once people got into like playing

31:17

Venus or playing the moon , or

31:19

playing the sun , whatever it is that

31:21

they were playing , that

31:24

would just kind of come over them in a way . Right

31:26

, it would just start to happen . And

31:28

what was interesting for me was then to look at the chart

31:31

later or after and

31:34

see how accurate the field was in

31:36

depicting the chart . I kind

31:38

of didn't want the interference of the chart

31:40

. I wanted it to be a little

31:42

more pure where the chart happened

31:44

. And then I have the information afterwards

31:47

to look back on . And

31:49

sometimes I would , sometimes I wouldn't , sometimes

31:51

it was unnecessary , but it's interesting

31:53

to have experience of astrology

31:57

then as a living , breathing

31:59

reality , which

32:04

I just because

32:06

what you're talking about here is the

32:09

tapping in and then going deeper and tapping

32:11

in again and sort of setting

32:14

context that , like you've said

32:16

, you're also honoring the land that we're in

32:18

. That it's different than if we're meeting in

32:20

Provence versus we're meeting in

32:22

Vancouver or we're meeting in

32:24

Sydney . You know like

32:26

it's going to be a completely different

32:28

experience and so honoring

32:31

that , the dreaming of the land that we're

32:33

in as its own context

32:35

, and yeah

32:38

, I mean it's a fascinating yeah

32:42

.

32:44

I think that you know it's

32:47

interesting because I

32:49

feel like one

32:52

of the things that I'm

32:54

wanting to do and part

32:56

of why I do bring the chart in a long

32:59

way , but I never begin there . I

33:01

mean , do I ever ? Maybe I do

33:03

, I don't know , but

33:05

I don't think so . Usually . I'm wanting to

33:07

sort of feel that , like I , immediately , when you mentioned

33:09

your intention constellations

33:12

I thought , well , yeah , it'd be really fun then to know , like to see

33:14

how you know each

33:16

of those words was also a planet or something in the person's

33:19

chart , and

33:22

what I think is possible is that that can be integrated

33:24

with that along the way . In

33:26

fact , I kind of think that's desirable . Like

33:29

this you know DNA spiral , you know kind of , because

33:31

there's a way

33:34

that the you know . To me , the astrology is a dialectical

33:36

experience

33:39

between the dreaming earth , gaia

33:41

, and the reflecting sky , uranus

33:43

, and we do tend to split them and

33:45

feel like , okay , that's

33:48

over here and that's over here , and

33:51

but it's very hard to

33:53

do that at the same time and people not

33:55

to get lost in their heads , but yet

33:57

that is the skill I actually want to teach , because usually I'm

34:00

with people who who know some astrology not always , there

34:03

were a couple people newer , but

34:06

and I , I , I the

34:08

thing I want to develop our capacity

34:10

to do is

34:12

to work with the symbols in a very living way and

34:14

be able to speak about them without

34:18

leaving the field of experience , and

34:20

I , you know it's a , it's a co-consciousness

34:22

, you could say , of being in

34:24

the experience and also reflecting

34:27

on it that are also the

34:30

same . You know , you're not really you don't have to leave it to reflect on

34:32

it , and but

34:34

but of course , it's very , that's a very advanced

34:36

capacity , honestly , in

34:39

terms of a culture that is using Instagram and

34:41

TikTok all the time . You know , like

34:43

which , which you know , and

34:45

then constantly narrowing and that can't

34:47

even hold . You know two

34:50

opposites in any situation , you know

34:52

it's always one or the other , and you

34:54

know there's a good guy and a bad guy , and

34:57

and so a big part of it for me is

34:59

I feel like one of the things I'm doing in readings

35:02

is inviting people to a mode

35:04

of consciousness that I hope they will

35:06

carry with them , you know , beyond

35:08

whatever the continents , that we're sharing

35:10

about . I'm hoping that

35:12

in part it's offering

35:14

a space of where we can really

35:16

reflect and

35:19

be in it and reflecting on it together

35:21

, and but it does take work

35:24

to develop that and not

35:26

to get lost in the mind and

35:28

its abstraction , like you said earlier

35:30

. What did you say was yeah , this

35:32

isn't like a one-time thing

35:34

that happened in the first century . It's every moment

35:37

, you know , the invitation

35:39

to split is present and

35:42

every moment we have to choose

35:44

to re-imbed . It's

35:48

part of the human thing . At this point

35:50

it seems like you know . But

35:53

and then the other thing I was going to say in the reading you

35:55

mentioned in the consultation space

35:59

, I

36:01

feel like , yeah , what you said , like

36:03

what I thought of in this

36:05

, is that mostly

36:08

it's listening . Most of

36:10

what is happening is I'm listening and you

36:12

know even the tone of voice of

36:14

a person saying . You know sitting

36:17

down , or the way they sit down

36:19

, or a gesture that they make , or a slip of

36:21

the tongue . All these

36:23

different things to me are ways that these animals

36:25

communicate . And if you have

36:27

the hunter's perception

36:29

. You know , you see

36:32

the creature poking out by . You know the

36:35

person being five minutes late , like who's

36:37

that that brought them , that delayed

36:39

them five minutes . Or you know

36:41

who's that that's frustrated

36:43

with the traffic on the way , or frustrated

36:45

with me because I didn't answer the door quickly

36:48

enough . Or , and I'm in

36:50

, you know we're in and

36:53

it's always bringing , you know . Once

36:55

you get to know these animals , you start

36:57

feeling and seeing them all over and

37:00

you know I just assume

37:02

that whichever one is doing that is

37:04

the one that and that I can see . Of

37:06

course many of them are appearing and I don't even see them

37:08

, but some are appearing for

37:11

whatever reason in me . I'm able to

37:13

see or feel that creature and

37:16

then I find myself sharing that part of the sky

37:18

because always , you know , it'll light up something

37:20

in the sky and then we're

37:22

in , as you said . But

37:25

I also wanted to say one of the . I mean I've heard

37:27

several evocative things from where you said and

37:29

I went to dialogue there because

37:31

one of them is that

37:35

thing of like the fear that you were talking about

37:37

, like maybe it won't happen , and I

37:39

actually I will say I don't really have

37:41

that fear because

37:44

I but I don't I don't mean because

37:46

it's always worked or , in my quotes , work

37:48

I'm confident that

37:50

the field constellates . When we

37:52

do that , I'm not

37:54

confident that we can always see it and

37:56

feel it in the moment , and a lot

37:58

of times , I don't you know , there will be

38:00

a flat experience , maybe

38:03

seemingly flat , and

38:06

or maybe

38:08

there's the feeling I didn't really ever quite

38:10

take and they wouldn't . A

38:13

lot of times I think about it as play and I

38:15

sometimes feel like people aren't willing to play

38:17

. So it's kind of like

38:19

you know , you've got to be willing to play a little here and

38:24

probably my abandoned cancer placement

38:26

is like so please play

38:28

with me . But you

38:30

know , even then I know it's

38:32

shown up and a lot of times right here , on reflection

38:34

we will see how we were actually just completely

38:37

absorbed into the archetype that probably

38:39

wanted our attention and

38:42

, for whatever reason , in that single

38:45

hour we couldn't become conscious of it , but

38:47

it still happened . You know

38:49

, it's still me , it's still , you

38:51

know , in the field , what didn't

38:53

happen is a recognition and

38:55

a conscious participation .

38:57

But the creature came . You know , right

39:00

right .

39:05

And I , you know , one of the things that

39:07

is really tricky and

39:10

retreat space . Especially , you know , with

39:13

any kind of a group . I

39:16

am very , very oriented

39:18

towards really slow , because

39:21

I want to fully

39:23

experience what we're in . And

39:26

you know it can be excruciating

39:28

at times to hang out , and

39:31

hang out with what might be felt like

39:33

is irresolution or something

39:35

needs to happen . And

39:39

yet I think when we really do that

39:41

for one thing in a group

39:43

, it means everybody can come along right , because if

39:45

you go past people's warm-up they start

39:48

leaving the experience at one level or another , keeping

39:51

everyone along as best we can . But

39:53

it's also about hanging

39:56

out . Lets something happen , you know

39:58

. Let's something like like

40:01

gives the field permission and space

40:03

, because most animals

40:05

in the wild they don't run

40:07

around making a lot of noise . You know they're keep

40:09

quiet , they stay high . I mean most

40:12

creatures . You know we say wild and act

40:14

like it means wild , you know , but

40:16

very few animals are like that

40:18

, you know , like almost all

40:21

of them keep . You know they

40:23

keep to their own ways

40:25

. So if you

40:27

want to get to know them , you got to

40:29

create a space where they can come

40:32

in their own way , in their own you

40:34

know , their

40:36

own creaturely instinct . And

40:39

for me that means holding a lot

40:41

of space , you

40:43

know , and

40:45

not demanding an answer , not demanding

40:47

, and somehow we have to both

40:50

parry our tendency to

40:52

do that and also parry their client's

40:54

tendency to do that , like so

40:56

that the creature can speak before

40:59

we start talking . Right , it's

41:02

tricky , isn't it ? I mean

41:04

, it's a but it's tricky and it's not tricky . Like you

41:06

said , you know , once you're in , you're in .

41:08

And , as you've said , the

41:11

key component there is listening and

41:13

I think that's always been a good one to

41:15

just come back to , you know , almost

41:18

like early counseling skills , some of

41:20

those courses of just getting that

41:23

sense , of even going back to the

41:25

sort of Carl Rogers style which to

41:27

me archetype is the echo

41:29

, you know , just be echo in

41:33

which case it's just just hang out

41:35

, listen , repeat back in

41:37

the classical style and that's really

41:39

effective , you know . And

41:42

so having some baselines like that of

41:45

a creation of a listening space , as

41:47

you say , in

41:49

some ways the anxiety can

41:53

just be an interesting component of like yeah

41:55

, what is this , you know ? Maybe that's

41:57

my Saturn in the 10th , wanting to excel and

41:59

wanting to have this excellent , you know

42:01

, session of whatever that means in

42:03

Saturn's terms , and then once we come back off

42:05

of that , it's like , ah , but what is ? what

42:08

is a great session ? It's a feeling tone and

42:11

it's a and , as you say

42:13

, if something , quote unquote

42:15

doesn't happen . This is why , also , my

42:17

the craniocerule training

42:19

is always in the back of all of this , for me too

42:22

, because biodynamic craniocerule

42:24

is the training

42:27

of sitting in that field and

42:29

remembering you don't have to do anything

42:31

here . This organism

42:33

is intelligence . Just wait a little . Just

42:36

wait just a few seconds longer and

42:38

there she comes , you know , and there the body

42:41

comes alive . That

42:43

was the whole training right , it was

42:45

an untraining off of the

42:47

doing mind for years

42:49

and years , yeah , allowing right

42:51

, allowing something , instead of making

42:54

something happen , which we're never really doing

42:56

anyway . So it's a listening

42:58

deeper , deeper . That sort of ends

43:00

up being the background

43:02

. But speaking of background , it's

43:05

interesting to hear even in our conversation

43:07

, because we have this time of

43:09

the year in Scorpio and and and

43:11

it's it's really curious to hear

43:13

those archetypes wandering in and wandering

43:15

out right , the Hunter , the

43:18

Artemis of Ryan , becoming like the animal

43:20

and then that came back just now of

43:22

animals the

43:26

wild is actually quiet

43:28

a lot of the time . So I'm sort of hearing Scorpio

43:30

wandering in and out and

43:33

I'm not to go there quite yet because

43:35

I actually want to come back to you , know your

43:38

story and how you got to here . Actually

43:40

, I'd love to go back in time into

43:43

your journey , but I'm just also tracking

43:45

that that's coming in and looking

43:47

forward to exploring that

43:49

as that comes up you know more directly

43:51

through those myths , because I

43:54

love your elaboration

43:56

of Artemis and Orion and even the Actian

43:58

part that comes later and we can

44:00

get into that . But before we do like

44:05

how I mean I

44:07

personally love , like

44:09

I love a biopic . You know , I love a , I

44:11

love . I love hearing people's myths

44:13

. I love hearing people's stories and how

44:16

it came to be , because I think there's just so much

44:18

instruction in

44:20

in the telling of the story . So

44:22

, like all these

44:24

curious things that you're up to in your life

44:27

, was it all ? Was it

44:29

the sort of thing where that was always

44:31

a part of your path , that you always had a finger

44:33

on that thread , or did it open

44:36

for you as time went on with the incidents

44:38

that meant that it had to come through , or

44:41

you know ?

44:42

how did ?

44:42

how did you get to this place ? Where did

44:44

it come ?

44:44

from . Yeah

44:47

. Well , one

44:49

definite context

44:51

for me is the family that

44:53

I was born into . Now

44:57

, when I was born , the first

45:00

couple of years of my life , we were all in

45:02

this house together

45:04

and we was five

45:07

generations my great-great-grandmother

45:10

, my great-grandmother my

45:12

grandmother , my mother and me , wow

45:15

, and it was a matriarchy

45:17

. you know those were all the mothers of each other

45:19

and it wasn't . They

45:21

would have never been proclaimed as

45:23

a matriarchy , right , but it was one

45:25

. And I say it would never

45:27

have been because at one level it was a very fundamentalist

45:30

Christian Southern

45:32

Baptist . It's quite a strong , you

45:35

know , that kind of energy

45:37

with all this rules and notions

45:40

. But the other

45:42

thing that was going on was there was

45:44

a very alive conversation with astrology

45:46

, my great-great-grandmother , grandma

45:49

Cumby . She was a tealy-freeder

45:52

and so people would come from all over the hills

45:54

where we lived and have her read their

45:56

cups . Wow , and

45:58

this is in West Virginia , you know , in the

46:00

US , where you

46:02

know Appalachia might be a way . People would

46:04

also know it if you've heard of the

46:06

word hillbilly , or you

46:09

know back , you know people back in

46:11

the holler , you know that's

46:14

my people and so

46:16

it's folk astrology in a way

46:18

. Right , these are the people who also get a feeling

46:20

in their knees and the storms are coming and

46:23

they really do . I mean that's actually right . I mean they're

46:25

in touch with something and

46:27

you know they weren't reading Jung and

46:30

Hillman . So

46:32

you know there was a certain way that it was

46:34

very limited in some ways , but it was

46:36

also very embodied and I definitely

46:39

feel that that is why , with

46:41

astrology , although I've learned a

46:43

heck of a lot of technique in all these different

46:46

schools and approaches , I've

46:49

been kind of refractory to the notion

46:51

that that technique is what

46:53

this is . You know , because I , if

46:56

I go to an astrology conference and I hear these

46:58

astrologers talking , you

47:00

know , in a theoretical way , I just know

47:03

that they don't know what my mother knew . You

47:05

know , like who didn't know like

47:07

a huge amount . You know we knew our , my

47:09

chart was done , the mom and I was born , my

47:12

grandmother knew aspects and that

47:14

kind of stuff . You know they were all

47:16

conversant . Nobody was a professional

47:19

astrologer and

47:21

but you know , so that

47:23

was a context that was really

47:25

, you

47:28

know , embedding the whole time . And

47:31

so I started to teach astrology to

47:33

my schoolmates , you know , when I was like

47:35

16 , I was doing charts for pay

47:38

around a little after that .

47:40

Wow .

47:41

And in college I would do people's charts . I

47:43

didn't turn that into

47:45

a profession . I went . I moved to India

47:48

for five years and studied

47:50

a lot of Vedic astrology stuff

47:52

and shared the Western astrology there

47:54

too .

47:55

Yeah .

47:56

So it's been around the whole time

47:58

. It's like been a companion , and

48:02

so that's kind of one . You know

48:05

context

48:08

that I , you know , I've

48:12

been fortunate to live from and

48:15

now , just , you

48:17

know , it's very alive . To me , it always is . It's

48:21

my way of being able to see and

48:23

orient , and the beauty

48:26

of that cosmology is that it , of

48:28

course , every cosmology can be practiced in

48:30

a way that narrows your view of life . You know , I'm a

48:32

Leo and that's . You know just how I am type of . I'm

48:34

not a Leo , but you know that

48:36

might be a statement someone would make , but

48:40

you know , to me it

48:43

actually creates more openness and curiosity

48:45

, because I do not feel that that experience

48:48

of these last 50 years makes

48:51

me the expert . I genuinely don't feel

48:53

that way . I think that

48:56

it I

48:58

learn about these every time . You know , like I'm

49:00

doing a class right now and experiential

49:03

teaching , a class right now , experiential

49:05

approach to the air signs and people

49:08

are making art and sharing

49:11

stories from where they've seen the archetype

49:13

appear and I'm getting

49:15

. We've just been doing Libra and I've been

49:17

getting . I have a lot of Libra and

49:19

I feel like I've been

49:21

getting it in all new ways . I'm like , oh

49:23

my God , I really get a lot of Libra

49:25

going on . So

49:28

that's the beauty of the astrology , right . It just

49:30

always keeps being mystery

49:32

and even

49:35

when you've been doing it for and watching it for

49:37

a long time , you like a relationship

49:40

. You know like people are , we're mysteries

49:42

to each other , right , like we think we know each

49:44

other . And then , yeah , so

49:47

that was one . And then I think the other

49:49

thing that just comes into my mind

49:51

I guess that's sort of the archetypal holding

49:53

and also the land

49:55

, the place that I'm from is very

49:57

like you know I

50:00

am , we're all Earth creatures , but I

50:02

feel very aware of being a creature of the lands

50:04

where I've lived and that they have been the teachers

50:06

. And so West

50:09

Virginia , you know it's not

50:11

in a super people to play , human people

50:13

to place and you

50:16

know the hills , the river

50:18

that we grew up by , you

50:21

know all of those teach

50:25

and

50:30

, yeah , that's the world that I can see the stars

50:32

from . So that's

50:35

, those are the big teachers . And

50:38

the other is a couple of human beings

50:40

that I've met over the years and

50:44

I , my early

50:47

life , around 16 , my

50:50

I met someone

50:52

I came to call my godmother . Susan

50:54

Green was her name and

50:57

and it was this profound level

50:59

of attunement that was in our relationship

51:01

. I really felt , all

51:03

of a sudden she was seeing me and seeing

51:06

things that no one else had been seeing . You

51:08

know , she I was always

51:10

seen as the sort of smart one and

51:12

the responsible one , and and

51:15

she was seeing this compassionate , loving

51:17

person that I didn't really get , that

51:19

person mirrored to me by my early life , like

51:21

I was looked to to run the house

51:24

and be the smart kid , you know . But

51:26

Susan came in and saw

51:28

something else and and

51:32

so our relationship , you know , which went on for

51:34

like 12 years , and

51:37

when I would , when I went to India , I would

51:39

write her every day and share all this . You

51:41

know , whatever was happening , there's this constant

51:44

experience of of a deep

51:46

listening from her and an attunement

51:49

and creating that

51:52

I was saying earlier habitat for me

51:54

to experience more

51:56

and more of my being

51:58

and really

52:01

to do that . I came out to her as a gay

52:03

person when I was 16 . And

52:06

so there was a way that I felt safe enough to

52:08

bring places Venus

52:10

and Mars get to come forward now

52:12

so slowly

52:15

. That relationship was really foundational

52:19

for showing

52:23

me how we can provide the habitat to one another

52:25

, that that is maybe the biggest thing we

52:28

do for each other . And so

52:31

that's when

52:33

I was at my Saturn return , susan

52:35

began to die from lung cancer

52:37

and I

52:40

took care of her for a few months at the

52:42

end of her life and moved in

52:44

with her , and

52:46

that's when I realized that I want to do therapy

52:48

, because I wasn't really

52:50

afraid of the death walk with her and I

52:53

realized that was unusual and

52:56

the symbolic world was very fluorescent

52:59

, you know , as it will be in

53:01

near dying times , and

53:03

you couldn't miss what

53:05

was happening , all the different movements

53:08

and consciousness . And so

53:11

then I became a therapist and throughout

53:14

all of this and then in

53:16

my therapy work , which was highly in the

53:18

interpersonal field , it was also archetypal

53:20

and Jungian and all that , but really it's

53:23

very based on the relatedness

53:25

in that field , and

53:28

then the chart would be in the room

53:30

as well . You know , like the sky was there , because I can't not

53:34

be under it , and that would you

53:36

know , that would you know . I saw the therapy . The whole point

53:40

of therapy is to create context for

53:42

people to step into and reveal

53:44

and experience and then be

53:47

able to bring that to their lives

53:49

. You know , to have different responses to life and not

53:51

just be , you

53:53

know , one ring to rule them all

53:55

, one animal . You know one God that

53:57

owns them . They

54:00

have to know how to say yes and no to the gods

54:02

, right ? You don't . You

54:04

know it's . It's

54:06

often really destructive to try to be

54:09

one God or to be

54:11

owned by one , and so you

54:13

know . That's

54:15

where it went and I did therapy for a long

54:17

time . I started teaching a lot of experiential modes

54:21

like what I was describing earlier and

54:24

for me , if those places , I would

54:26

describe that context

54:28

of that land and my early family

54:31

world and you know the stories

54:33

being along the whole time

54:35

and but then these found fundamental

54:38

relationships that really spoke to me

54:41

, human to human

54:43

relationships , you

54:45

know , with our own species . That really

54:47

, really is where it came to

54:52

life for me . And you know a

54:54

couple of other mentors , one of whom we share , brian , who's

54:58

our I think he's I would . We would

55:00

both describe him as a friend and mentor

55:02

. And I had a

55:04

Gary Grimm , a guy that I did a lot

55:06

of therapy with as a patient and also sort of mentored

55:08

me with my own

55:10

therapy work . There's

55:13

been a few of these very , you know

55:15

relationships that

55:17

that

55:20

is as central to me as the astrology

55:22

and the myth it is

55:25

, it is myth , it is living in

55:27

that field that

55:29

you know , that field , that we were speaking of .

55:31

So it's so interesting . The really

55:35

like the your great . Is it great

55:38

great or great grandmother ? Yeah

55:40

, great , great , great , great , grandmother , I'm just envisioning

55:43

those five generations

55:45

, and but actually , this is

55:47

somewhere that you and I also really

55:50

connect on , because

55:53

, yeah , for me , astrology came after

55:55

that what I refer to as

55:57

the meaning of my three witches . I

55:59

met these three witches when I was in

56:02

London and each one of them was like incredibly

56:04

important as a teacher , but opened

56:06

up things like you

56:09

know that you could read anything that

56:11

this , this is what I , this is where I was

56:13

at before finding astrology , in a way , in

56:15

that the sense that you could read anything . The coffee

56:18

, the way that the coffee is left there

56:20

. Oh yeah , right , these kinds of things like anything

56:22

that's around you can read . ultimately

56:25

, it's just that attunement and

56:27

so fascinating that this , these early

56:29

experiences where there was the

56:31

, that , this reading

56:34

of what , what does it really mean ? It's kind

56:36

of an attunement to what's really going on

56:38

and an attunement to a synchronicity , a

56:40

statement that this thing is happening

56:42

as this thing is happening , and that's significant

56:44

. So , which sets you up for

56:46

astrology , but a really like

56:49

it's the oracle , I would

56:51

say , or the archetype of the oracle , you

56:53

know , the pithier , or the , the

56:56

, this , this figure that I

56:59

feel is , is perhaps

57:01

if we could understand why

57:04

the oracle , especially in ancient Greece , was such

57:06

a powerful figure , you know , I mean

57:08

it was . It was fascinating to be

57:10

, a couple of months ago , as in Delphi or

57:13

Delphi , whichever , of those and

57:15

the , and the experience

57:18

of this place , the

57:20

gifts that were given , you know , the , the

57:22

power that she , the pithier

57:25

, was able to , was

57:28

holding , therefore

57:30

, the reverence to that particular kind of knowing

57:32

.

57:33

That's what .

57:33

I really felt being there . There's a reverence to

57:35

this kind of knowing that's above the knowing

57:38

of the rational is above that

57:40

it's somebody that is in a constantly

57:42

altered state and it's just

57:44

saying things that are like spot

57:46

on . You know , she's just coming from this place

57:48

. I like to believe that she

57:50

was talking in perfect hexagram poetry

57:53

, but you know , then the story is written

57:55

that she's . She's saying these things

57:57

, then the priest kind

58:00

of translating it into

58:02

that poetry . I find even that

58:04

a really interesting mythic theme . Of which of those

58:06

is true , but

58:09

interesting .

58:09

Yeah , yeah . Well , I was

58:11

just going to say that reminds me of a

58:14

friend of mine who's a psycho linguist , wrote

58:16

a book called coherence

58:18

and psychotic discourse and

58:20

you know the ramp so-called ramblings

58:23

of psychotic patients and

58:25

what she's a linguist . So she would take

58:27

the transcripts of these conversations

58:29

from multiple sessions and by

58:32

expanding frame and you know

58:34

, looking at these she

58:36

could find sense making path . You know

58:38

like there's a different order of sense

58:40

and not all psychosis , I suppose

58:42

, would play by this , who knows . But you

58:45

know things that seemed random and

58:47

strange you know could be experienced

58:49

. So when you're speaking about the priests , priests

58:52

, priests and priestesses . You know translating

58:54

epithio . You know I think about . You

58:57

know the , you

58:59

know we have all these oracles that we're not listening

59:01

to just say , oh , that's psychosis

59:03

, that's crazy

59:06

. And you

59:08

know , I worked with some patients who would be

59:10

described in that way . And again

59:13

, you have to know the animal , you know to hear

59:15

it and you know what

59:18

might be coming . But yeah , the

59:20

lack of reverence for that way and

59:22

even the lack of exposure , you know , I

59:25

just think . You know , in a

59:27

world mediated by the computer

59:31

and language and code you

59:33

know binary code people

59:37

don't get a chance even to

59:39

hear the epithio , you know

59:41

.

59:42

Yeah , and the wisdom

59:44

that comes from those extreme states

59:46

that just it's

59:49

just automatically written off and so we

59:51

lose so much from that , you

59:53

know , and so it has to get

59:55

, I think , louder and more destructive .

59:58

My experience is that , you know , when

1:00:02

the creature is repressed , it returns

1:00:04

with a vengeance

1:00:07

when

1:00:09

it's time it's time , and barring

1:00:13

the gates just brings a bigger

1:00:15

battering ramp . You know , like

1:00:17

that's the Trojan story to me

1:00:20

. You know they put a wall up and you're gonna

1:00:22

. The barbarians are on their way . The

1:00:26

Greeks , you know , were kind of quote

1:00:29

barbarian . You know the Troy was very sophisticated

1:00:31

and Greeks are these sort of pirates

1:00:33

essentially , and

1:00:35

you know you

1:00:38

put the walls up and they will come . You know it feels

1:00:40

similar to me with that .

1:00:42

Yeah , very Scorpio

1:00:44

in its own way . Oh , interesting yeah .

1:00:46

Good . I appreciate

1:00:49

you tracking Scorpio

1:00:51

, the little flashes you know

1:00:53

.

1:00:54

Scorpio is the way they barely .

1:00:56

You know they come out from under the rock and back

1:00:58

.

1:01:00

Yeah , they decide to break down a barrier

1:01:02

. Right , they decide to go

1:01:04

through . Yeah .

1:01:06

Totally yeah , so that's a great point . Yeah , I

1:01:08

always think of tourists building their thing

1:01:10

and holding , holding , holding and straight

1:01:13

through , irresistible , immovable

1:01:15

object of tourists and the irresistible

1:01:18

.

1:01:19

Yeah , that axis . Wow

1:01:21

. So then you also mentioned

1:01:24

that your thought of , or your identity

1:01:26

was built around intelligence , which obviously

1:01:28

is still a big part of your identity . But

1:01:30

then , but then , Susan , you

1:01:34

know this teacher , this I

1:01:37

don't know what you would call her actually . What do you ? What

1:01:39

do you refer to her as in your own mind ?

1:01:41

I have always called her my godmother

1:01:43

. Godmother Of course she wasn't like , she wasn't

1:01:45

a godmother . You know that

1:01:49

I designated her as that because

1:01:52

she , I felt like the mothering

1:01:54

, that I felt like mothering

1:01:56

. And so I

1:01:58

came to call her that you know

1:02:00

, and so she .

1:02:02

she sees something . I mean , ultimately

1:02:04

, her role is to see something

1:02:06

different or to call this is the

1:02:08

thing . This is why I think this

1:02:10

work is invoking calling

1:02:12

forward something different

1:02:14

. Right , and and this is why these relationships

1:02:17

are into the relational part of

1:02:19

this is it's

1:02:21

so important to have that to be seen

1:02:23

in a different way , and

1:02:26

isn't that the mentor the this

1:02:28

figure is , is to do that in

1:02:31

a way that is not even possible

1:02:33

from our family , immediate family

1:02:35

members , parents , siblings and things you

1:02:37

know like . there's a contribution

1:02:39

from from those people , for

1:02:42

sure , both ways , and but

1:02:44

there's something about someone that comes outside

1:02:46

of the immediate field and

1:02:49

then sees , sees

1:02:52

something and comments on

1:02:54

it and speaks to it directly and and

1:02:56

draws it forward , which it sounds like a whole

1:02:58

Jupiter cycle of of

1:03:00

that with her , including

1:03:03

the another Scorpio

1:03:05

theme of walk of death walk , you

1:03:07

know , maybe even uncovering

1:03:10

or discovering within yourself a

1:03:12

latent ability to walk with somebody

1:03:14

very closely through

1:03:17

the final passage .

1:03:22

Yeah , no , I think that's

1:03:25

right . I think I think , given that we often

1:03:28

are , you know , you

1:03:30

know in our families and early

1:03:33

life settings , you know again

1:03:36

, I think certain creatures in us will

1:03:39

be called forward , will be asked

1:03:41

to play those roles , will be asked to hold

1:03:43

those energies and

1:03:45

and some won't . And I

1:03:48

think that's that's . You know , in

1:03:50

a way , that's not . There's nowhere that

1:03:52

wouldn't happen . You know , there's like whether

1:03:54

you had the worst , so in quotes , the worst traumatic

1:03:57

, horrible , or the best , it

1:04:00

really doesn't matter . It's going to be incomplete

1:04:02

because this is endless

1:04:04

and maybe

1:04:07

you could say that certain levels

1:04:09

of intensity create more rigid systems

1:04:11

of dominance in the psyche

1:04:13

. You know meaning , you know certain

1:04:15

parts of us , because I would say

1:04:17

from me , as a child , the

1:04:21

necessity of the coming Saturn

1:04:23

was , was , was , was , total . You

1:04:25

know like , well , part of

1:04:27

why I like that Audrey Lord quote is

1:04:30

it says you know the point . It doesn't just say it's to

1:04:32

make our lives richer . It says you know

1:04:34

, the aim of all that we do is to make

1:04:36

our lives and the lives of our children

1:04:39

richer and more possible meaning

1:04:41

that sometimes survival itself is

1:04:43

at stake . You know , like that's the

1:04:46

world that we're in right now , right , you know

1:04:48

we're . You know speak of Scorpio and

1:04:51

the affairs of the world right now , where

1:04:53

it's really perhaps not

1:04:55

that different than how it always is , but it has burst

1:04:58

into collective consciousness some of violence

1:05:01

and the threats that most

1:05:03

people daily live with , survival

1:05:05

threats , and so

1:05:08

I like that and I think survival

1:05:10

, psychic survival , often means

1:05:12

you know that you have to become what you have to . You

1:05:14

know that the creatures in you that can

1:05:16

meet that environment began to be all

1:05:18

that you know yourself as , and so , as you said

1:05:21

, it really takes somebody from who's

1:05:23

not in that and , for whatever

1:05:26

reason , relates to other spots

1:05:28

, right , I mean you know to think

1:05:30

it astrologically Susan , who

1:05:32

I mentioned , you know she's

1:05:34

a Scorpio with

1:05:37

a Cancer Moon and we

1:05:39

shared Saturn and Cancer , so

1:05:41

she layered right onto my

1:05:43

Scorpio Cancer material

1:05:45

and helped bring

1:05:48

it forward to the watery , emotional

1:05:50

, empathic , counselor

1:05:53

sort of energy . She's

1:05:55

able to say I see this , I feel

1:05:57

this in you and I , and when she

1:05:59

says it it's like . It's like when you know

1:06:01

there's a thing that I . I've

1:06:04

never found this poem and I've started to think

1:06:06

it came from my own soul . I

1:06:08

don't know , I've looked really hard

1:06:10

, but it's , the words

1:06:12

are , and through her touch I felt

1:06:14

my skin . And that's exactly

1:06:17

what I think . That's like you know , like someone

1:06:19

does that , and you feel the contours

1:06:22

of your own body like through the touch

1:06:24

. you don't feel it until the touch and then

1:06:27

you're like , oh , there I am , and

1:06:29

and I think astrology readings are

1:06:32

like that you know like we , if the story

1:06:34

is told in the way that you know , you

1:06:38

realize like , oh

1:06:40

, you know , this is there , you know , in a reading , somebody

1:06:42

you know you're doing that , you

1:06:44

know you're , you're , the story is contacting

1:06:47

and brushing up against and you

1:06:49

feel it . And so you

1:06:51

know , chenie

1:06:53

, that's the , that's the

1:06:56

stuff of life

1:06:58

, like that's , that , that's the thing that makes it really

1:07:00

happen , so to speak , really

1:07:04

. And so , yeah , she , she

1:07:06

, you know , by being from

1:07:08

the outside of that system and that habitat

1:07:10

, that environment or whatever , yeah

1:07:13

, she's inviting other creatures to step

1:07:15

in , you know , and

1:07:17

, and the thing is with

1:07:19

love , you know . So the , you know there's

1:07:22

a real , you know , willingness

1:07:25

to see and also to extend herself

1:07:28

and to help me . And it

1:07:30

was very much reciprocated . You know , at the end

1:07:32

, of the life , absolutely you know

1:07:35

, you know she , she was not a walk

1:07:37

into the light sort of galley , and I'm

1:07:40

like so at the end of her life . It

1:07:42

was anxiety for sure , and

1:07:44

I think I mean , I think you know , walk

1:07:46

into the lighters , have anxiety too . But

1:07:49

you know , there was stuff

1:07:52

, and I remember when she would share

1:07:54

these you know conversations

1:07:57

, she was beginning to have and and

1:07:59

experiences and she would say , you know , I'm

1:08:02

hallucinating . And I would say

1:08:04

, wow , you know which , which

1:08:06

meant I'm just making it . I mean to be

1:08:08

clear , that's what . There's an event in that

1:08:10

context Like well , I'm not so

1:08:12

sure , I think in those moments you might

1:08:14

be , you know , contacting something else

1:08:16

and and you know , again

1:08:19

, that was sort of me making space for that , to

1:08:21

prefer to experience that part of this journey

1:08:24

and , frankly speaking

1:08:26

, making space ignorantly . It's not like I had

1:08:28

a . I didn't have nearly the notions

1:08:30

of death and and you

1:08:33

know the

1:08:35

spirit world and I didn't have any

1:08:37

developed notions of that . I was

1:08:39

just feeling my way through the dark with her .

1:08:43

Well , that's sort of a theme that we have here

1:08:45

, right Of like . I think about this

1:08:47

of the like

1:08:49

when I said I didn't bring the charts into

1:08:52

those constellations . I guess

1:08:54

my point is like I want to see it emerge

1:08:56

, without any headiness from me

1:08:58

, you know , without any conceptualization

1:09:01

that could occur . And yet I

1:09:04

love astrology , I love the chart , I love seeing

1:09:06

that , I love working through that . It's

1:09:08

kind of a conversation in a way between the air

1:09:11

and the water , right Like it's the the

1:09:13

water is a I

1:09:17

don't know that , that emergent quality , that's just

1:09:19

there and being and

1:09:21

and the air putting frames

1:09:24

and consciousness around it , and it's

1:09:27

a both and obviously . But

1:09:30

there's something very pure about because

1:09:32

I also had experiences of working

1:09:35

with somebody through death in

1:09:37

my 20s , you know in a few different

1:09:39

occasions . And it was like

1:09:43

one one friend

1:09:45

of mine who who had ? Who

1:09:47

had leukemia , she'd

1:09:49

already had a , had her arm amputated

1:09:52

and she was willing to travel

1:09:54

solo around South America and all

1:09:56

this amazing stuff that

1:09:58

she was willing to do , you know in her early

1:10:00

20s . But with this pretty full on condition and as

1:10:03

she was traveling , the it all just came

1:10:06

back and it became very obvious that she was in that final passage

1:10:08

and she came and visited me in London

1:10:10

well , us in London you know a bunch of friends

1:10:14

and it was that kind of very communal time . And I remember

1:10:16

taking her to the airport and in

1:10:20

a taxi , in a black , in a black

1:10:22

London taxi , black taxi cab

1:10:24

kind of thing , and she was resting on

1:10:27

my shoulder and I

1:10:29

walked her as far as I could in the airport

1:10:31

and then she had to go on

1:10:34

her own and I'd written her this letter that had sort

1:10:36

of described that journey in a way . You know

1:10:39

, here we are in this black back of a black

1:10:41

taxi cab . All the symbols are already alive and happening

1:10:45

, symbols that I don't know much

1:10:47

about . But even walking her to the edge of where I can

1:10:49

go and then sending

1:10:51

her off , on her own and giving her this

1:10:54

letter to hold with her and , like

1:10:58

you , I didn't know what I was doing , but there's

1:11:00

something about the not knowing what I was

1:11:03

doing that made it so pure

1:11:05

in a way . What do ?

1:11:07

you mean by pure ? I'm so curious about this word and

1:11:11

, frankly , suspicious . Yeah

1:11:13

, yeah , yeah it is not suspicious

1:11:15

, but you know , I , when I

1:11:17

because can I say yeah

1:11:20

, please , yeah it's interesting

1:11:22

because I I like when I

1:11:24

I review , taking me back to thinking about

1:11:26

when Susan was dying . one

1:11:28

of the most interesting things are not

1:11:31

just interesting , really profound things . That happened

1:11:33

is , you know people , she was very

1:11:35

loved , as you might imagine , you know , from

1:11:37

my description , and she's also sad , rising

1:11:39

, so friends with everyone , but

1:11:43

but deeply involved in all their lives

1:11:45

, with all that water , and it

1:11:47

was a bit stunning actually the

1:11:49

amount of of relations she was

1:11:51

able to experience them and

1:11:54

how much she was offering you and how many people

1:11:56

would come in and be going straight to the depths

1:11:58

of their lives with her . So

1:12:02

so people would bring

1:12:04

things , you know , and there was

1:12:06

this experience where one week it

1:12:09

was all you know mammals and

1:12:11

, and you know , like creatures

1:12:14

, like that . And then there was an

1:12:16

amphibian week , you know , like little stuffed turtles

1:12:18

and alligators

1:12:21

and all this . And then there was a fish

1:12:23

week , you know , and it just felt like it

1:12:25

was tracking her return

1:12:27

, you know to the water like off the

1:12:29

land and and , and

1:12:31

I didn't know any things

1:12:34

like that , but I did know that I was

1:12:36

like , oh , this is what's happening and

1:12:38

, and that was helpful

1:12:40

to participate in it more

1:12:43

.

1:12:43

You know .

1:12:43

So what I'm reminded of is the feeling

1:12:46

that , like we , I don't want

1:12:48

to stand in the place that the mind has

1:12:50

to subtract from life , or from being

1:12:52

in experience , like I

1:12:54

think we have a role on this planet and our

1:12:56

minds are having our minds

1:12:58

grew out of this place , so they're not unnatural

1:13:01

. Thinking isn't to me

1:13:03

unnatural , it's just that it has

1:13:05

this very strong tendency

1:13:08

to pull out and control

1:13:10

. But but it's like . You

1:13:12

know , the book Braiding Sweetgrass is that

1:13:14

a book ?

1:13:15

that you know . You've talked about that before

1:13:17

. I only know it's true and have read it

1:13:19

. Yeah .

1:13:20

But you know , one of her points in the

1:13:22

book and I'm sorry to say I don't remember

1:13:25

her name , but the author

1:13:27

, one of her things she's

1:13:29

really naming is is that

1:13:31

, you know , and she's

1:13:34

also a scientist , she's a scientist and she's

1:13:36

also , you know , has Native

1:13:38

American descent , and and

1:13:40

she is describing that . You

1:13:43

know , humans actually can make

1:13:45

environments more alive . Alive

1:13:47

, you know , by how they , how they plant

1:13:49

things and how they braid things and

1:13:52

relate to things . We , our

1:13:54

ability to reflect , can actually bring more

1:13:56

again life , richer and more possible

1:13:58

, like for other creatures also . You

1:14:00

know , for for so and not by , but

1:14:03

not by controlling and not by pulling up

1:14:05

and designing the eco . We know how that goes

1:14:07

, you know that's

1:14:09

, that's the detached way that wants to sort

1:14:12

of say oh , we , I know what's best for everybody , but

1:14:14

it's more like on the ground , embedded

1:14:16

participation , but with that reflective

1:14:18

capacity . And so I

1:14:20

really want , because

1:14:23

I don't think we're going to get rid of the mind and

1:14:26

it's such a potentially embodied

1:14:28

creature . You know , language is

1:14:30

, is , what is it ? It's imitation

1:14:32

of animals and sound , you know , you

1:14:35

know it's , it's it's . You know , your , your

1:14:38

, your accent or your , you know I always

1:14:41

think of the hills of West Virginia . I always think

1:14:43

they shaped my talking . I mean , actually

1:14:45

I don't have much of that accent , but you

1:14:48

know it , we're in there , you

1:14:50

know , and the mind could be in . You

1:14:52

know , uranus doesn't have to rape

1:14:54

Gaya . Uranus can also be married

1:14:56

to Gaya . So

1:14:58

I , just I , when I , when you're speaking about

1:15:01

it , just you know I . And , by the

1:15:03

way , I definitely know what you're getting at about

1:15:05

not interrupting

1:15:08

the flow with the mental concepts . Because

1:15:10

, that is almost always how it goes

1:15:12

. I think , we try astrology in

1:15:14

.

1:15:15

Yeah . So I think , firstly

1:15:18

, I'm really appreciating

1:15:20

having that part called out . It

1:15:23

feels really good Because I can , I

1:15:25

can see how I do that , I can

1:15:27

see my , maybe

1:15:30

my preference for water , something

1:15:34

like that is coming in and so it's really good

1:15:37

to have you reflect that back to me . Another

1:15:39

scorpion theme , and

1:15:41

then and then the

1:15:43

other . So

1:15:46

I guess what I try to reckon with is like

1:15:48

just how magical and in the flow

1:15:50

and in the moment those times were

1:15:52

, looking

1:15:54

back as the reflection on the

1:15:56

on that moment . But of course that

1:15:59

has . That happens now with the

1:16:01

information too . You know , it's not like

1:16:03

it's only my mind , in a sense do it

1:16:05

in a meta way , separating that

1:16:07

I was like maybe you could do that then

1:16:10

because you didn't have this information

1:16:12

. So that that seems to be the narrative

1:16:14

. If I'm uncovering a narrative here

1:16:16

as you help me do is like , that's

1:16:18

the narrative that I can see , but

1:16:20

you could do that because you didn't know this .

1:16:24

Yeah , which is silly

1:16:26

because that would be really Tragic

1:16:29

for us as astrologers , because once you know your

1:16:31

chart , you know your chart exactly .

1:16:32

You can't not know .

1:16:34

Yeah , I mean , and you know , because people always like

1:16:36

oh , do you do your ministry with your clients ? And I'm

1:16:38

like no , but I mean , I'm gonna see

1:16:40

it immediately .

1:16:41

Yeah , exactly .

1:16:42

Yeah , or do you always do transits when

1:16:44

you do a reading ? I'm like no , but I know where

1:16:46

things right , yeah

1:16:49

but I was gonna say it's like

1:16:51

, oh shoot , oh , it

1:16:53

reminds me . And then I'm just speaking of this

1:16:55

as a myth and a metaphor , not , you

1:16:57

know , because it's sometimes . You

1:17:00

know that it's hard again with science stuff

1:17:02

or so-called science stuff . It's

1:17:05

so literal , you know , people think it also literally

1:17:07

. But when I'm sort of thinking of , like the

1:17:09

brainwave states that people

1:17:11

speak of , you know , alpha or beta

1:17:13

, and alpha , you know , and they the

1:17:16

beta one is , you know I think it has

1:17:18

a , you know it's more like this

1:17:20

, and the alpha ones are slower , and then beta

1:17:23

is like almost a dream , and Delta's when

1:17:25

you're sleeping . But , there's this other

1:17:27

state called gamma , which is

1:17:29

super fast again , but it

1:17:31

doesn't give up the integrative

1:17:33

capacities of the lower levels , like

1:17:35

it's often in psychedelic states , that this

1:17:37

will happen . You know where it's fast

1:17:40

, like the beta one , when the beta one is the one where

1:17:42

you're moving around the world and you know Can

1:17:44

be survival or just getting things done

1:17:46

, or that most people spend most of our

1:17:48

time in beta and then maybe

1:17:50

in a consultation or maybe at moments

1:17:52

in our conversation we're in alpha mode

1:17:54

and you

1:17:57

know when you're doing deeper work

1:17:59

, maybe you're in theta , whatever . Like these are these

1:18:01

Notions that people have done with

1:18:03

brainwaves . But there is this gamma thing that

1:18:06

makes me think of the integrated mind

1:18:08

, you know , like you know it's like there's

1:18:10

no need to split off any of it , like it's

1:18:13

, it has a place and something . And

1:18:15

that just came to my mind

1:18:17

. Just , you know , again , I , when

1:18:20

I relate to concepts like that , I'm sure I

1:18:22

didn't get it right signed , you know I didn't

1:18:24

get it right , just like when we tell

1:18:26

the myths , I don't think we're getting it right

1:18:28

. I'm getting the part that

1:18:30

we remember in the moment . It

1:18:32

all contradicts each other anyway . The

1:18:34

science says it doesn't contradict itself , but

1:18:36

it endlessly does right .

1:18:38

Yeah , yeah so .

1:18:39

I'm just engaging it as a myth . I'm not saying I

1:18:41

, I don't really know much about that stuff , but it just

1:18:43

came to my mind like this to

1:18:45

me it's sort of it's an image of

1:18:48

how this can be

1:18:50

in . You know how

1:18:53

, being in that , how , how be how

1:18:55

, thinking and mentalization

1:18:57

doesn't have to mean Removal

1:19:00

from direct experience . Yeah , you

1:19:03

know maybe . Yeah

1:19:06

, I'm also pretty watery , so I hear you .

1:19:10

But it's , it's nice to reflect on

1:19:12

that . You know you're Anna , says the

1:19:14

as the child

1:19:16

of Gaia , and then the partner of

1:19:18

Gaia and he it's almost

1:19:20

like coming back to that and having the collective

1:19:23

dreaming mind spend a little more time there

1:19:25

on , given that your honesty

1:19:27

is the child of Gaia ? She's not , he's not coming

1:19:30

from somewhere else . You know

1:19:32

, there's not that this is being born

1:19:34

. He's not born .

1:19:36

Right from the earth and

1:19:38

you know the eco , so

1:19:40

psychology world speaks

1:19:43

about that , like you know the . The

1:19:45

mind is born out of all these sensei

1:19:48

, sensuous Experiences and

1:19:50

through relating right , we know that our brain

1:19:52

is , is a , is part

1:19:54

of this . It doesn't come from inside

1:19:57

and you know , or from somewhere else

1:19:59

. It's right here , it's Embedded

1:20:02

, it's a totally physical , embedded experience

1:20:04

which does not deny that

1:20:07

consciousness is what it's about . I mean , it's not

1:20:09

buying into the scientist , but

1:20:11

it's this . I , you know Experience

1:20:14

and yet it forgets that's and that's why

1:20:16

, you know , a lot of people would say , that's why in indigenous

1:20:18

cultures , so much of the storytelling

1:20:21

is is what do you call

1:20:23

that kind of story where you're Warning

1:20:25

someone of what could happen ? you know

1:20:27

, like you a lot of the stories are about

1:20:29

, you know , people getting beyond . You know , people

1:20:32

forgetting their relatedness . You know like

1:20:34

not giving the bones of a salmon back

1:20:36

to the river and

1:20:38

and then beginning to become disconnected

1:20:41

and the world starts going out of balance and right

1:20:43

precautionary . Yeah , that's

1:20:45

the cautionary tale .

1:20:46

Yeah right .

1:20:47

Yeah , there's so much of that . Yeah , because they

1:20:50

really recognize that . You

1:20:52

know , this thing Gets

1:20:54

out of hand .

1:20:55

Yeah , sure

1:20:58

does well . So

1:21:05

we've got your story . You

1:21:07

know you mentioned Brian

1:21:09

and others that sort

1:21:11

of helped you through . I guess it's

1:21:14

about , yeah , the

1:21:16

integrating of these right in some ways . I hear

1:21:19

a mythic thread here of the the

1:21:22

identity is the intellectual and the identity is the

1:21:24

feeler and the caregiver or

1:21:27

the nurturer , or the spaceholder or

1:21:29

the dreamer , and and these , these two , which are also coming up in

1:21:31

our guy or

1:21:34

you ran us , I guess and

1:21:37

the having both , and

1:21:40

that is also why I appreciate your

1:21:42

work so much , because it takes a lot to gather up all these myths right , like

1:21:46

it's actually . It's actually some stuff .

1:21:48

It's actually some stuff , you

1:21:50

know it's like .

1:21:51

It's a lot of reading , a lot of text and

1:21:53

a lot of going through and and even astrology

1:21:55

it well , I say even astrology

1:21:57

is astrology is incredibly hard to learn .

1:22:01

Yes , only a little bit of motivation .

1:22:03

Yeah , really , you

1:22:05

know drawing charts from scratch

1:22:07

and these kinds of things , the mathematics that's involved

1:22:10

that there's so much that's

1:22:12

learning , psychology , mathematics

1:22:14

, astronomy , the different things that

1:22:17

actually going into it is can

1:22:19

be a pretty heady affair , you know , and

1:22:22

it's , and I do believe that that is an essential

1:22:25

. You know , we've got to learn all that technique

1:22:27

stuff and

1:22:29

then kind of the unlearning and

1:22:31

the coming back to the , the emergent qualities , right , like

1:22:35

because it is important that

1:22:37

you know a vast array of stories

1:22:40

in that container

1:22:42

when things are showing up , right , if you didn't know

1:22:44

the stories then

1:22:47

you wouldn't have access .

1:22:49

And and you and you wouldn't really necessarily

1:22:52

recognize the creature that you're

1:22:54

sitting in you know , For

1:22:56

me , one of the places this really shows up

1:22:59

is , like you know

1:23:01

, when I was a therapist and not

1:23:03

that long ago but

1:23:05

, and I still am one

1:23:07

technically that I don't , I don't work with people that

1:23:09

way right now , but when

1:23:12

I was , you know , one of the one

1:23:14

of the worlds that I found

1:23:16

most alive and psychology , because you know most psychology

1:23:18

and

1:23:20

diagnosis in particular feels you

1:23:23

know really you know

1:23:25

too literal and and it's and doesn't

1:23:28

have , it doesn't understand itself as a story

1:23:30

, and it's usually

1:23:32

very simplifying rather than complexifying

1:23:35

to come back to that word that you brought in

1:23:37

and but

1:23:39

one area that was a little bit different than that was

1:23:41

personality theory and character structure

1:23:44

and so-called personality disorders , and

1:23:46

that became an area of real

1:23:48

passion for me and I began to work

1:23:51

a lot with that topic and

1:23:53

that way of seeing

1:23:55

in the consultation , and

1:23:57

it's a way of seeing that is really about

1:23:59

complex patterns , that that you need

1:24:02

to observe over time to

1:24:04

feel , and that have apparently Unrelated

1:24:07

features that you wouldn't necessarily

1:24:10

relate , and so if you just say to yourself , I'm

1:24:12

just going to be present in the moment , you

1:24:15

will miss the thing that this

1:24:17

is a part of you know and

1:24:19

so you will relate to it in a way that

1:24:21

is actually you may think is very free

1:24:23

in the moment , but then you'll realize the pattern

1:24:25

had completely conditioned you because

1:24:28

, you were inside a conditioning pattern that

1:24:30

is much more complex , and

1:24:33

so to know those patterns and

1:24:35

those , those modes , not

1:24:37

to limit people to them , but to recognize

1:24:39

when you're in the presence of that , takes learning the

1:24:41

pattern . You have to know

1:24:43

what does it feel like in my body when I'm with this

1:24:45

? Or like borderline personality and

1:24:48

, and these have all become , you know , reified

1:24:52

constructs that people you know talk

1:24:54

about getting gaslighted by their

1:24:56

narcissistic parents and all this ? You

1:24:58

know it has all gotten very narrow

1:25:01

, but the the end

1:25:03

, just like astrology has , and but

1:25:05

the possibility of those stories is pretty

1:25:07

great , like , like that's what

1:25:09

helped me be Able

1:25:11

to meet and attune people and love

1:25:14

them . How do you love someone if you don't know

1:25:16

them ? You know , how do you offer that if

1:25:18

you don't understand the animal that

1:25:20

you're with , and so , but I

1:25:22

do think that's why I

1:25:24

think the stories can be really helpful

1:25:28

to have there , because you

1:25:30

know , if you're , if you're responding to

1:25:32

Scorpio appearances as if it was , you

1:25:36

know , aries , because you in the moment

1:25:38

, it showed a combative orientation

1:25:40

, but if you responded to it like

1:25:42

that you're , you're , it's not going to go well , you

1:25:45

know , like they might , you know

1:25:47

, in the moment seem okay and then yet

1:25:50

it's being , it's being kept inside of a larger . You

1:25:52

know it's just . There's something about knowing the

1:25:55

, the creature , its patterns

1:25:57

, its cycles , its life cycles

1:25:59

, that the stories

1:26:01

can show us , which I don't find . Often

1:26:03

the keyword

1:26:06

astrology or the , you know , the , the

1:26:09

non mythologically informed astrology

1:26:11

rarely although occasionally

1:26:13

, but rarely is

1:26:16

able to be that way

1:26:18

. It's not big enough to get into really describing

1:26:20

. It's not complicated enough . Yeah

1:26:22

, it's like very helpful . Anyway

1:26:26

, that's a long but , but I think I I've never

1:26:28

really thought about this before until you were saying that

1:26:30

you know that that's part of why learn

1:26:33

the stories . You know why learn them . You

1:26:35

know you learn them because they do actually

1:26:38

help you love someone

1:26:40

, you know yeah , yeah .

1:26:43

Well , it's interesting . I was listening to like

1:26:45

a philosophy show , a philosophy

1:26:47

program , a few months ago , and they were talking

1:26:49

about time , and this woman

1:26:51

came on to talk about time and

1:26:54

she talked about presentism , which

1:26:57

was which was about . You know my understanding

1:26:59

of it , anyway , having only listened to

1:27:01

this half hour thing , so I'm just kind of bringing

1:27:03

in . What I remember of it

1:27:06

is this idea that we know

1:27:09

in what she calls like time

1:27:12

concept a , and then there's time concept

1:27:14

be , right that most people in time concept

1:27:17

a and they get this sense of like a

1:27:19

river flowing . And then there's us in the middle and

1:27:23

and and preference

1:27:25

or prejudice towards present , which

1:27:28

you cause . Presentism and the

1:27:30

be is that is this other

1:27:32

concept entirely that I can't really give

1:27:34

justice to , because in order to

1:27:36

get there you'd have to get out of the , the

1:27:38

idea that it's this present , like this river

1:27:40

of time , and you , here's you on the boat in

1:27:42

the present and it kind

1:27:44

of reminds me of like what in

1:27:47

my early explorations , early twenties

1:27:49

. You know , one of the big books for me was Eckhart

1:27:51

Tolle's power of now and

1:27:53

then , since then , I've thought about it as like

1:27:55

that's very presentist , presentist

1:27:58

in a way , and and what did it

1:28:00

? do for me , like as an effect on

1:28:02

me . It maybe kept me out

1:28:04

for a little while of all

1:28:06

the things my mind wanted to do , which was a lot

1:28:08

more reading , a lot more like

1:28:11

, a lot more going into these stories

1:28:13

and things . But it was almost the

1:28:15

effect , and I don't know if it's the desired effect

1:28:17

or not , but was to

1:28:19

make sure I was just being in the present

1:28:21

as the , as the thing you know

1:28:24

, which actually yeah , is a bit of a problem

1:28:26

, right , it subtracts depth

1:28:28

, and it subtracts depth yeah

1:28:30

no , it's no respecter of time

1:28:32

. Yeah , and story lines that go

1:28:35

over chronological , even if they are , yeah , like

1:28:39

multiple elements of time , like

1:28:41

the circular time , and yeah , yeah , I don't

1:28:43

mean just so called money or yeah

1:28:46

, like things play themselves

1:28:48

out and and more from become

1:28:50

other things . You know and and and

1:28:52

without being able to see that . Then you're like

1:28:54

you said you'd be in the present and you think that

1:28:56

you're , you know

1:28:58

that's what , but actually you may be getting

1:29:00

subscripted into something

1:29:02

or , you know , enrolled into something

1:29:05

and you play it out and you don't know that that's what

1:29:07

you just played out . But knowing the story is like

1:29:09

oh , we're just in this section of

1:29:11

this story and I'm going to

1:29:13

be present here and listen , listen , which

1:29:15

is the key tool , but also I can see this story

1:29:17

and I

1:29:20

can see where it's played out and I can see some

1:29:22

of the circular nature of it . I could

1:29:24

also see where it wants to break out .

1:29:26

You know these kinds of things exactly

1:29:28

, or where , or where Arrows wants

1:29:30

to break in . Yeah , exactly , I

1:29:32

think that's the real power of it is like

1:29:34

you become able to

1:29:37

see hints of other things that

1:29:39

might cut . You know , and you begin

1:29:41

, in your body , or whatever your motive , sentience

1:29:44

is , you know , you begin to feel

1:29:47

how different it is when there's a

1:29:50

, you know , like a glitch in the matrix you know

1:29:52

, like there's a , there's something aired

1:29:54

, you're like , oh my god , let's feed that . You

1:29:56

know , yes , like that thing looks really

1:29:59

interesting , you know , and and looks like it's

1:30:01

not because , you know , with like personality

1:30:03

disorders . You know , part of the

1:30:05

issue is that once people diagnose

1:30:08

that , that that's all they can see

1:30:10

in the person , or sometimes the person

1:30:12

, that's all they can see and and when

1:30:14

they do that , ironically , they've literally

1:30:16

fallen into the pattern , right , because

1:30:20

most of those things happen because people were

1:30:22

related to you too narrowly and now

1:30:24

you're doing it to them to see , just it's

1:30:26

just going to harden the thing and

1:30:29

but but yeah , once you do

1:30:31

know it , the possibility , of course , is to hold

1:30:33

someone to it and , just , you know , freeze

1:30:36

it , or at least try to freeze

1:30:39

it . But but the other possibility is

1:30:41

that is that you'll see something that is not

1:30:43

conditioned by the pattern . And you

1:30:46

, you know , you see your , you

1:30:48

know your revolutionary under this authoritarian

1:30:50

regime , you

1:30:53

know you start working in

1:30:55

a mycelium , you know like , yeah

1:30:57

, well , changes the changes

1:31:00

things .

1:31:00

It's such a good way to put it in

1:31:04

mycelium sneaky

1:31:07

scorpion .

1:31:08

Yeah , like that moment where

1:31:10

you're referring to that .

1:31:12

It's exciting because , like who's this ?

1:31:14

who is this ? Who is it ? tell me finally

1:31:16

, something that is not predictable yes it's

1:31:21

grimly predictable sometimes when

1:31:23

you understand these patterns and

1:31:25

somebody's caught in it like yeah , you know

1:31:28

it's very , you know it's

1:31:30

often quite predictable , you

1:31:32

know , and I don't mean astrological

1:31:35

, although probably , but it's just

1:31:37

but , but , but and not because

1:31:39

those don't have potential for mystery

1:31:41

and morphing . But I think it

1:31:43

is harder , you know , from inside there

1:31:45

, unless met and , and a lot

1:31:47

of , I also think , when we know

1:31:50

this thing , we're with it

1:31:52

feels , felt and often

1:31:54

relaxes its hold on consciousness

1:31:57

. You know it's like in a way it

1:31:59

keeps presenting because it needs to be

1:32:01

seen and so once it's

1:32:03

finally really seen , it

1:32:05

can kind of move on to its next thing

1:32:07

, you know , and something else in the room can

1:32:09

occur which is kind of the

1:32:12

dilemma of of of

1:32:14

diagnosis , because in some ways diagnosis

1:32:17

is so really relieving , you

1:32:19

know to , to yeah this is what , this

1:32:21

is what it is , this is what it's been .

1:32:23

But then with the diagnosis comes and

1:32:25

only that , like a sort

1:32:28

of invisible and only that nest to it

1:32:30

. That so the first relief

1:32:32

, which could be like oh , that

1:32:35

feels good to know that , and I wonder what else

1:32:37

is available or possible . That's

1:32:39

what you would hope for or want from diagnosis

1:32:41

.

1:32:42

But often diagnosis is like oh , that relief

1:32:44

comes , but then a prison , a

1:32:46

prison yeah , comes along with it and

1:32:48

a very or labyrinth maybe

1:32:50

, whatever you know like it's very difficult

1:32:52

to get out of that and

1:32:55

same as astrology , right , it's the same , with

1:32:57

people telling you you have Saturn square , your

1:32:59

son , right , you have this thing

1:33:02

and and and

1:33:04

and again . Most people are

1:33:06

not helped

1:33:09

to experience

1:33:11

reflection on symbols and most astrologers

1:33:14

aren't helping people do that . They're more

1:33:16

decoding and deciphering and

1:33:18

so it does become a prison

1:33:21

, a particular knowledge , including the

1:33:23

so-called good ones , but

1:33:25

it doesn't , it's like . So I think it's very

1:33:27

similar , it's like you

1:33:29

know , and that's why when I do it in a reading , you

1:33:31

know , I I would probably spend

1:33:33

time with one or two images , you know

1:33:36

, the chart , or one or two stories . It's

1:33:38

not a you know index

1:33:40

of everything going on . It's . It's . It's

1:33:43

actually in part , to offer

1:33:45

that space for really hanging out

1:33:47

with it , you know , and

1:33:49

getting to know it and and

1:33:53

and not an experiencing

1:33:55

, hopefully live and in the session , the

1:33:58

multi valence of the archetype , experiencing

1:34:00

how it shows with different images and how

1:34:02

it's more thing and you know versus

1:34:05

you know . This is how it is and

1:34:07

it's always going to be this way . Still

1:34:10

very hard to help people out

1:34:13

of that expected . You know it's a very

1:34:15

powerful trance

1:34:17

, you know . Yeah , I

1:34:19

was thinking of epiphya . You were saying you know

1:34:21

and you know the

1:34:24

things you would walk under . You know moderation

1:34:28

and know

1:34:30

no one self . And but

1:34:32

that third one , sure

1:34:34

it's . He brings ruin . And

1:34:38

I mean right

1:34:40

, incredible right

1:34:43

, and that's what you're being told on

1:34:45

the way to the oracle yeah , right

1:34:48

where you were hoping for security yeah

1:34:50

probably in mind , was hoping to give me an answer

1:34:52

and yet you know , literally

1:34:55

you're being told wow

1:34:57

. I didn't know that

1:34:59

that's what I want people to know when

1:35:02

you know , like , like , don't . This

1:35:04

isn't the point of this reading is not to make you

1:35:06

sure of anything absolutely which

1:35:10

can be a time sort of wrestling match

1:35:12

of like .

1:35:12

But I want well , I can't , you

1:35:14

know this this conversation yeah

1:35:18

, yeah , now it can be .

1:35:19

It's true , it's , but

1:35:23

, like you said , if we're in the magic

1:35:25

of the encounter with the mystery , that

1:35:27

does tend to bypass that .

1:35:29

Yeah , exactly yeah , and then suddenly

1:35:31

even there's a relaxation of

1:35:33

that yeah , absolutely , and and

1:35:36

there's almost like an understanding of the absurdity

1:35:38

that I think that's the really

1:35:40

nice moment . Right , that's a little absurd

1:35:42

, isn't it , to expect you to give me ? That right

1:35:47

, and then we both

1:35:49

agree , but then it's cool that you've come for

1:35:51

that , because we'll find something you know that's okay

1:35:54

to come for that yes

1:35:56

, it's the passion of your soul . Yeah

1:35:58

, something got your attention we'll

1:36:07

leave the conversation with Jason here and pick it up

1:36:09

in part two . Please tune

1:36:11

in for that episode as Jason and I elaborate

1:36:13

on the myth of Artemis and Orion for the

1:36:15

Scorpio new moon . Thank

1:36:19

you for listening to on the souls terms

1:36:21

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1:36:23

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1:36:33

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