0:03

Welcome to On the Souls Terms podcast

0:05

, a weaving of astrology

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, greek mythology and depth psychology

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. I'm Chris Gidmore

0:12

, an astrologer , psychotherapist and craniocytal

0:14

therapist living in Ubud .

0:19

Bali . Welcome

0:26

to On the Souls Terms the podcast

0:28

. My name is Faye and I'm a guest on

0:31

the podcast this week . I'm an astrological

0:33

counselor based in Canada and

0:35

here we have Chris Gidmore , the host

0:37

of the wonderful podcast . Hi , chris

0:39

.

0:40

Hey Faye , Thank you for introducing me

0:42

. That feels special .

0:43

You're welcome . I thought , on behalf of

0:45

Sage Season for two sage

0:48

risings , I thought I would let you

0:50

take the reins and I'll ask

0:52

you the questions for a change .

0:53

Lovely , or you take the reins . One

0:55

of us is going to take the reins of this Sagittarian

0:58

horse today .

1:00

There's some horse involved . Thanks

1:04

for having me back , chris , it's such a pleasure

1:06

.

1:07

Thank you , faye , and thank you for taking

1:09

those reins , and I'm looking forward

1:11

to seeing where we're going to go with this sage episode

1:13

today .

1:14

Yeah , I'm sage

1:16

season , here we come . I mean

1:18

, I don't know about a lot of people , but I think not

1:21

everybody's been feeling the Sagittarian

1:23

energies maybe they will talk about in a

1:25

second , but I

1:27

think this podcast is going to be a great way

1:29

to sort of help us reorient and

1:31

bring back the meaning if maybe potentially

1:33

we've been in sort of scorpionic waters

1:35

over these last little while .

1:37

I think maybe that's why , subconsciously

1:39

or unconsciously , I did the Off you KISS episode

1:41

, because it was almost like

1:43

we were in that real liminal

1:45

in betweeny space

1:47

. I know , for me and for you it's felt like that

1:50

kind of like the desire to come back

1:52

into that fire of sage and get meaning

1:54

and purpose and a sense of like . Okay

1:56

, it all makes sense , but

1:59

continually being drawn back into

2:01

underworld themes and that's

2:03

certainly how it's been , personally for me

2:05

, and not for you too and

2:09

our , our sagirizingness

2:11

has maybe been desiring

2:13

to go forward into the into

2:15

the fire of it all and into the meaning

2:17

making and into the . It's a bit like

2:19

in in our last episode in Medusa

2:21

right , we talked about the Pegasus and

2:24

, and Christ saw those two figures

2:26

born out of the , the capitated

2:28

head of Medusa . So

2:31

we get this image of like a flying horse

2:33

, very Sagittarian imagery , and also

2:36

the one with the , the golden sword

2:38

in the Christ saw figure . You

2:40

know , gold , that sword that can

2:42

really delineate and make sense

2:44

of things and and

2:47

come into , I guess , rational

2:49

, but also not just rational

2:51

, like myth making as

2:53

well , and understanding this moment

2:56

in terms of all other moments and these things

2:58

that Sagittarian can help us with . And , of course

3:00

, the image of a , of a horse that has

3:02

the four feet that can be on the ground but also

3:05

wings that can fly up into the air

3:07

, and I think that's a very rich

3:09

image for Sagittarius . But

3:13

then again and again feeling a bit more like

3:15

Medusa's frozen , that's maybe your

3:17

or not really

3:19

having the ability to to

3:22

get past the frozen states or

3:24

whatever it might be . So if anybody out there

3:26

can relate to that , maybe people are going yeah

3:28

, why is it that it feels like a super

3:30

long Scorpio season or something like that

3:32

? Then we're with you , and

3:35

if you're out there going , like no , I'm totally

3:37

set up right now . I'm I'm up

3:39

in the sky and I'm seeing everything . So clearly

3:41

. That's like good for you , awesome , thank

3:44

you , and pass that some to us .

3:46

Yeah , yeah , Power to you

3:49

. Exactly , I

3:52

had a fire going while I was eating dinner

3:54

before the podcast and I'm a good

3:57

fire maker and it was

3:59

so pitiful and

4:01

I got so angry

4:03

and I was like I need

4:05

a roaring fire . Like

4:08

what is this ? Like small peasley

4:10

, and it just like infuriated me

4:12

in this way . So

4:15

I think that's this internal part of me

4:17

that has definitely felt in Scorpio

4:19

waters is

4:22

desperate for that side energy

4:24

of lightness and playfulness and you

4:26

know it's all for and but

4:28

also sometimes I think you know , maybe

4:31

what you and I both need right now is

4:33

these reminders to help lift out

4:35

.

4:35

Yeah .

4:36

Just by speaking about it . It's you're

4:38

like all right , maybe maybe it isn't

4:40

all dark . You know , maybe there is something that's

4:42

actually want to come . Maybe I can bring a bit of laughter

4:45

into this even if you're going through a tough

4:47

time , you know that winged

4:49

horse , that freedom that

4:51

expands that above you know

4:53

, getting out of this sort of narrow fixed energy

4:56

of Scorpio and getting into that mutable

4:58

energy .

4:59

Absolutely so . How are we going to do that ?

5:02

Hey , let's follow your wonderful format

5:04

. Let's start with the consensus reality . Let's

5:07

go . Let's go in a consensus

5:09

.

5:09

Yeah , yeah . So , as we

5:11

do , we'll go into the consensus

5:14

reality and , again , thankful

5:16

to the faculty of astrological studies and

5:19

and some resources that I'm

5:21

pulling from there just to get a sense of like

5:23

, okay , the essential consensus

5:26

reality view of Sagittarius

5:28

, and it's great , I mean , it's really good stuff

5:30

that they have there . We look first

5:32

to the combination of energies , which is it's

5:35

positive , that

5:37

doesn't mean good in astrology , just means

5:39

positive is in more outward and

5:41

negative means more inward . It's

5:44

a fire sign and it's a mutable

5:46

sign , and I think it's important to say that Sagittarius

5:48

is the final of the three fire

5:51

signs . So we're going to start getting into

5:53

, as we move into this final phase

5:55

of the signs , the matured

5:58

fire , and then the matured earth

6:01

of Capricorn , the matured air

6:03

of Aquarius and matured water

6:06

of Pisces . So

6:08

that's , we're into this final

6:10

phase , in a sense of the of

6:13

the wheel Obviously we've already been

6:15

in through . We started with the

6:17

fire of Aries . That

6:19

was the cardinal fire , the starting fire

6:21

. We moved into

6:24

the fixed fire of Leo and

6:26

now we're going into the mutable fire of

6:29

Sagittarius . So

6:31

in some ways , that is a , that is

6:33

a sharing of the wisdom that Sagittarius

6:35

is interested in . Now

6:38

the key words that they have

6:40

for Sagittarius is optimistic

6:43

, enthusiastic , adventurous

6:46

and philosophical . It's

6:48

a really nice four words to get us into

6:50

, like what that arrow of

6:52

Sagittarius is really aimed for aimed

6:55

at . Optimism , enthusiasm

6:58

, you know , adventure , philosophy

7:00

, these are the things that we're heading for the

7:04

positive expressions freedom , loving

7:06

, honest , outgoing

7:09

and wise , and then

7:11

they come along with their negative

7:13

expressions . So the shadow

7:15

, I suppose , of freedom loving is non-committal

7:17

, the

7:19

shadow of honesty is bluntness

7:22

, the shadow of outgoing

7:24

is indiscriminate and

7:27

the shadow of wise is dogmatic . That

7:30

gives us a nice range of where the Sagittarius

7:32

can land , where that arrow , if it

7:35

doesn't quite reach its mark

7:37

, where it may head off or fall flat

7:39

or head into some different

7:41

arenas , where that mutable fire

7:43

can become troublesome , like

7:45

that non-committal energy , you know , never really

7:48

able to stick with one thing , always moving

7:50

on and aiming that arrow at

7:52

a completely new thing , or the

7:54

bluntness instead of the honesty , where

7:56

that sword , the golden sword or the chrysaur

7:59

, that can be used to just be really clear

8:01

and honest and cut through something , and it can

8:03

also be a blunt sword

8:05

where you just sort of bludgeoning

8:08

, it becomes almost like

8:10

regressed , that sword back to the club

8:12

, like back to Hercules' club

8:14

right . That doesn't have any edges , it's

8:16

just like bang , bang , bit

8:18

, like the hammer always seeking out nails

8:20

. Indiscriminate , that's

8:22

an interesting one . So not using any

8:25

of that discernment and just ranting

8:27

and raving . I would say indiscriminate , and

8:29

then dogma . I think we'll get into a

8:31

nice discussion , in a way , about that

8:34

dogmatic energy , because once

8:36

Sag finds that truth even though it's a mutable

8:38

sign , once it finds

8:41

that truth , it can become fixed on it , like

8:43

this is the way . This is the truth

8:45

, this is the only truth , which

8:47

is the I suppose it's the

8:50

shadow of having an arrow or a bow and arrow

8:52

pointed at something . And that's also the

8:55

opposition to Gemini that we'll get into

8:57

, where Gemini can see multiple truths

8:59

all available at the same time , and

9:01

Sag may feel that that's antithetical

9:04

to the wisdom it's trying

9:06

to cultivate , and so it just stares

9:08

just directly at that target and

9:11

then loses things along the way

9:13

.

9:14

Yeah , I was going to say for

9:16

such a mutable sign . That

9:18

arrow is a very fixed energy

9:20

. It can be non-committal

9:22

, it can be indiscriminate , it can go all which way , but

9:25

when it does focus , when it is able

9:27

to hone that energy , it can be

9:29

so narrow in its view , in

9:31

its focus , that it actually doesn't

9:33

allow any spaciousness for what else is

9:35

around or other points of view . Or

9:38

this is the only way I know the capital

9:40

T truth , and that's whatever .

9:41

That is right , but whatever it's focusing

9:44

on it just doesn't allow for

9:46

the other things to come in , and I

9:48

think that's kind of like an almost . I can understand

9:51

why . Right , because it doesn't want to have a fuzzy

9:53

. It doesn't want to be fuzzy , it doesn't want to be fuzzy

9:56

thinking , and if it allows in too

9:58

many variables , then it's not able

10:00

to really focus as it needs

10:02

to . So I can get why things would

10:04

get dogmatic . You know , what sprung to my

10:06

mind just now is that when

10:08

I was studying economics at university , one

10:11

of the things that they had us do in

10:13

an economic model is you had to hold

10:15

other things as constant

10:17

. So hold these variables

10:20

that are clearly not ever going to be constant

10:22

, but you hold them as constant

10:24

so that you can explore the one variable that you

10:26

want to explore . I always

10:28

found that that's a very suspicious move

10:30

to hold these other things as

10:32

constant Because you know . so you're admitting

10:35

that they're not constant , right ? But

10:38

you have to hold them as constant in your mind

10:40

briefly , so that

10:42

you can look at the one variable you want to look at . But

10:44

how sad is that ? Because in the thing that you want

10:47

to look at , then you forget that you've

10:49

been holding these things constant . They're not constant

10:51

, they're actually all variables

10:53

, which is why you know Sagittarius

10:56

energy always invites the Gemini

10:58

trickster in to start fuzzing

11:00

things up for it again , right ?

11:02

But is that constant ?

11:03

But what have you done there ? Is that thinking right

11:05

? And then you start to get too many variables

11:08

again . Now , gemini loves multiple

11:11

variables , right , loves everything

11:13

being variable , wants everything to be variable

11:15

. But that can annoy Sag

11:17

so much that it again that arrow

11:19

. Like you said , it's a mutable sign but

11:22

its shadow is very fixed . So

11:25

it wants to fix on that one thing

11:27

so that it can get . And rightfully

11:29

so , because it wants to get just the

11:31

information from that one thing , but can forget that

11:33

it's played this game , just like my economics

11:35

professors . Maybe Are those variables

11:37

that we've fixed ? Did we

11:40

remember to come back and make the variable

11:42

again once we got the information ?

11:44

right , like that sort of thing . Yeah

11:46

, any words or themes

11:48

or concepts that you think are missing from these

11:50

. I personally think expansiveness

11:53

needs to be out there

11:55

for me .

11:56

Yeah , I like it

11:58

. I'm just going to write down expansiveness

12:00

, because that's such an important

12:03

one , isn't it ? When we think about , especially

12:05

when we look to , the ruler of Sagittarius

12:08

, which is Jupiter , which tends to be an

12:10

expander of whatever you

12:13

know , like an amplifier , like

12:15

an amplifying force of whatever

12:17

it's connected to or attached

12:19

to , a multiplier , almost right

12:21

, that's like a 10 times multiplier a 100

12:23

times multiplier . So wherever

12:26

Jupiter is in your chart tends to be

12:28

multiplying whatever it is touching . So

12:30

yeah , expansiveness , I think

12:32

that is missing . I think nomadic

12:35

would be something that I would throw

12:37

in there , which is a little bit beyond

12:39

just freedom loving . I think

12:41

it's a bit of a desire to

12:43

be a wanderer , and of course may

12:46

have its shadow when we wander

12:48

too long sometimes .

12:49

Well , when you said wanderer , the word that

12:51

came up was the seeker , you

12:54

know . I really associate

12:57

Sag with the seeker and I can

12:59

you know I think we said at the beginning , both

13:01

of us are Sag risings

13:04

and I know that that that seeker

13:06

quality has definitely been a part

13:08

of my life and because

13:10

we're , it's the rising sign . It

13:12

is how I see the world . You

13:14

know something to be explored

13:17

and you know to see what else is out there

13:19

, to learn to gather .

13:21

Yes , well , it's interesting because the key

13:23

phrase that the faculty

13:25

have for Sagittarius is I seek also

13:28

in the body , just while we're here that the

13:30

Sagittarius rules the hips and the thighs

13:32

. So that's really interesting too , and

13:35

that could maybe take us into some of

13:37

the Chiron story , because that that's

13:39

where Chiron the Centaur , the wise Centaur

13:41

, gets injured in the thigh . Yeah

13:43

, interesting that it rules the hips and the thighs

13:45

. Do you have any kind of feeling around that

13:48

of the body part that Sagittarius

13:50

rules ?

13:50

To me that's sort of

13:52

where momentum

13:54

comes from , like

13:56

hips and thighs . You're climbing

13:59

, you're going forward , there's

14:02

a power there that's sort of propelling

14:06

you . And I do find that imagery

14:08

around Sagittarius is coming

14:11

out of Scorpio and entered

14:13

the depths and you're

14:15

propelling yourself forward again . You're

14:17

propelling yourself out of something

14:20

very fixed into this expansiveness

14:22

, into this openness and yeah

14:25

, so for me that's the sort of imagery that comes

14:27

up around the hips and the thighs of this

14:30

also stabilizer

14:32

you know , and how integral

14:34

they are and , as somebody

14:37

who has not been feeling very Sagittarian

14:39

recently , I've been craving

14:41

it . you know I want

14:43

it so badly and it's been a good

14:46

lesson for me of I'm pretty sure

14:48

we've talked about in the Scorpio . You

14:50

can't force it just because I want to feel

14:52

that way Just because I'm ready to make meaning

14:55

out of all the hardships that we've gone through

14:57

. I don't mean it's

14:59

actually the right time , but there's that forward

15:01

momentum or propelling you , to sort

15:03

of help shift you out from one state

15:06

to another .

15:07

Yeah , for sure , and I'm just thinking about

15:09

that . Yeah , the quads being like

15:11

one of the most powerful muscle

15:13

groups right those four muscles in the thighs

15:15

are actually yeah , I never really thought about it like that

15:17

that's a really powerful big muscles

15:20

that are able to push us forward and propel

15:22

us , and so in the injuring

15:24

of that we would lose some of

15:26

that mobility and lose some of that freedom

15:29

. You know , if there's an arrow that accidentally

15:31

goes in there from the blood of the Hydra

15:33

or the Hydra and

15:37

hits us in there , just like Chiron

15:39

, then it's part of the wound , right , it's

15:42

part of the wound of . Maybe as

15:44

animals we're more nomadic and

15:46

then we start to become

15:49

settlers and then we get injured there . Or there's

15:51

images of the

15:53

Fisher King gets injured there and

15:55

Chiron gets injured there

15:57

. It's a common sort of mystic

15:59

place to be injured in a way

16:01

, to be injured in the thigh . So

16:03

you're bringing forward the

16:06

element of mobility there . I

16:08

also think the element of libido

16:10

and sexual force also gets

16:12

injured there , and so we'll be able

16:15

to explore that a little in when

16:17

we get to Zeus and some of the

16:19

Zeus herodynamics . If we wander

16:21

in there in our mythic place . I

16:24

guess the last thing I bring in is the symbol , which

16:26

is this arrow , which

16:29

is I always look at it as you

16:31

know an arrow going 45 degrees

16:34

up and to the right and

16:37

there's a line in the middle that

16:39

I've always seen as like a horizon

16:42

line in the

16:44

middle of the sign . So there's

16:46

a horizontal line there

16:48

and a 45 degree angled

16:51

arrow line going through with an

16:53

arrow head , and so it's

16:55

a very strong image to

16:57

me . It's like that left side of

16:59

the arrow , the downside of the arrow , seems to be coming

17:01

from the sign before it in Scorpio

17:04

. And the arrow then goes

17:06

up and wants to get to the top of the mountain , which

17:08

goes forward into the Capricorn

17:10

journey and our journey to the

17:12

, to the pinnacle of the peak experience

17:15

.

17:15

I also sort of see that middle line as the horizon

17:17

, this bridge between the two worlds you

17:20

know that you're not fixated in one place

17:22

. There's something in beyond and

17:24

I think that's what Sagittarius always

17:26

reminds me of is that there's something beyond

17:29

what I'm experiencing , what I'm thinking

17:31

, and that's for me personally

17:33

, gives me a sense of freedom , gives

17:35

me that expansiveness in my body , that

17:37

spaciousness of okay

17:39

, yeah , I might not be able to see where the

17:41

other was going , but I know it's going somewhere

17:44

. I know that it's not fixed

17:46

. It's leading me somewhere . Only the arrow

17:48

knows where it's going . I've

17:51

wanted to try archery for that

17:53

reason . A

17:55

because of that focus that I think I

17:57

would benefit from , but

18:00

also just that power , and when something

18:02

leads you beyond and there's a sense of trust

18:04

. You know , I think that for me is a big part

18:06

of Sagittarian , maybe with Jupiter

18:09

as its ruler . There's

18:11

this . It's not blind trust , but there

18:13

is this sort of bigger picture that's

18:15

unfolding that we might not be able to see

18:17

. We might want the answers , like Capricorn

18:19

, but we're not at Capricorn yet . We're shooting

18:22

that arrow straight up into the sky

18:24

, having no idea where it's going to land . I'm

18:27

really having to sort of open

18:30

to that trust or faith , or whatever you might

18:32

want to call it , without really knowing

18:34

the absolute at the end of it all .

18:37

Yeah , it has to be . It has

18:39

to be approaching the mystery , doesn't it ? In

18:41

the end ? Because it is

18:43

the bias nature that arrow is

18:45

is aiming at something that it doesn't know

18:47

. It can hit in a way , or it's got it's aiming

18:49

at something higher that the arrows 45

18:51

degrees up . I always look at that element

18:53

of Sagittarius that has to aim at something

18:56

just a little bit beyond it or a little bit

18:58

in A bit , a little bit less possible

19:00

and less probable , like I

19:02

don't know if I can actually reach that . But

19:04

I got to aim for it , and and as soon as the

19:07

Sagittarian arrow stops aiming high

19:09

at some kind of ideal

19:11

, things get pretty . Depressed

19:13

. Things get pretty you know , and that is . It

19:15

actually talks , even in this article , about the

19:18

shadow side of Sagittarius , less talked about

19:20

his depression and the element of feeling

19:23

kind of lethargic or , you know

19:25

, unhappy and and Like

19:27

life doesn't have a meaning and

19:29

doesn't have a purpose , because that's all the opposite

19:32

energy . That's like the risk

19:34

that it takes , in a way , by aiming at this

19:36

thing far away . Right , it

19:39

aims at it , at it with a certain amount of hope

19:41

and a certain amount of Trust

19:43

and a certain amount of faith that that this

19:45

place that I'm going to there's gonna be like

19:47

there's gonna be a palace there , there's gonna be a

19:49

. The Fisher King is the parcel

19:51

fool is like there's gonna be a

19:54

castle there , the Fisher King's

19:56

castle . It is going to be there , you

19:58

know .

19:59

But then what if it turns ?

20:00

up and there's no castle there or there's no palace

20:03

and it and it . It can't have

20:05

that kind of that famous

20:07

night scene where you , you

20:10

know that the night arrives into this big

20:12

Dilemma and has to sort of figure

20:14

things out and think what if it arrives and there's not

20:16

nothing there ? And I think that can be that

20:18

barren sort of like empty

20:20

dead feeling . That can be

20:22

very sort of terrifying actually

20:25

for the Sagittarian experience . If

20:27

, like , if life doesn't prove itself

20:29

to be this great mythic adventure and

20:31

there's the feeling of like , just dreariness

20:34

or nothing's really happening here , you

20:36

know that can be the most terrifying

20:38

experience now for the Sagittarian

20:40

energy .

20:41

Absolutely , and you know , as you were saying

20:44

, that it reminded me of a friend that

20:46

I had as a physician's assistant . And the

20:48

first question will ask people who are depressed

20:50

or what are you looking forward to

20:52

, what are your hopes , what are your dreams ? And

20:55

yeah , I can speak from personal

20:57

experience when I've been in a depression , those

21:00

weren't there and that

21:02

was the scariest feeling I've ever felt . Yeah

21:04

, you know , to not be able to have something

21:06

that I was dreaming towards or

21:09

what it was all for , you

21:11

know , and so

21:13

I think that's a really important part , because

21:15

Maybe you know we can talk

21:18

about misconceptions of the Sagittarius , that it's

21:20

all party and you know Stand for 6a

21:22

dancing and just having a ball

21:24

. But there is that finally . I was talking

21:26

to a mentor a month ago about this . Without

21:29

that meaning piece for Sagittarians

21:31

, they can fall into

21:33

apathy or depression or

21:35

what's what's . What's the point ?

21:37

What's the point ? Yeah , yeah

21:39

, yeah . What does it all mean

21:42

? These kinds of questions , you know ?

21:43

so I was just gonna say , as the philosopher , exactly

21:46

, you know yeah .

21:48

Yeah , as the philosopher and you

21:50

know , the fate of many philosophers is to go

21:52

mad , right , like I mean to

21:55

sort of also go go crazy

21:57

with the amount of information they're trying to gather

21:59

as that eagle-eyed view

22:01

and try to get a sense of the whole

22:04

of everything . You know it's funny

22:06

because I feel like the this

22:08

movie that came out last year , everything everywhere

22:10

all at once , was like a Mythic

22:13

movie . You know they don't happen very

22:15

often every 20 years or so maybe

22:17

because I felt like the Matrix was a

22:19

mythic movie and Everything everywhere

22:22

all at once . Also as a mythic movie because it's

22:24

like suddenly there's so many variables , kind

22:26

of like what I was talking to you can't About

22:29

the economics study . It's

22:31

like you can't narrow anything down

22:33

, you can't focus on anything and there's just too

22:35

many things like Multiple realities

22:37

all existing all at once . And then towards

22:40

the end of the movie they showed the element of

22:42

the bagel and the hole in the middle of the bagel

22:44

and so that empty kind

22:46

of void space that's so terrifying

22:49

, right like that this

22:51

thing and and the daughters

22:53

like being sucked into this vortex . Such

22:55

a good image and the whole family

22:57

and the whole ancestral line is holding on

22:59

like no , I don't go there , like ultimately saying

23:02

like hey there's a meaning here . There's not . This

23:04

isn't just an empty , illusionary

23:06

, depressing place . You

23:09

know there is a journey . There is a night's

23:11

journey , there are damsels and distress

23:14

to be saved it . You know there are mythical

23:16

figures around . There is a big , invisible world

23:18

that we can't see , that this world is magical

23:20

, and I think Sagittarius needs to

23:22

have that and without that or

23:25

it doesn't even have to be magical . It's like

23:27

that there's a there's a rational

23:29

thing to figure out , or that there's a you

23:31

know there's philosophy , and if you can understand

23:33

all these philosophers , you can get a sense of

23:35

the , the greater reality , or whatever

23:37

it is . You know , wherever that arrow ? Is aimed

23:40

at . It doesn't have to be mythical , magical , although

23:42

it often is but it

23:44

can be very Rational

23:47

, very scientific , very logical , as

23:49

long as the arrow is aimed somewhere .

23:51

It's that returning of perspective

23:53

or if you're , if you're sort of lost , and

23:55

when I have gone through

23:57

a hard time , my mentors you

23:59

know Sag rising , she said are you giving

24:01

yourself any soul nourishment daily

24:04

, which to me are my spiritual books

24:06

? And so I made that a daily practice

24:08

so that you know if I was very focused

24:11

, sag energy in

24:13

my , my world . It

24:15

helped brought in my perspective again . It

24:17

helped me remember the larger things

24:19

that play , that you know what else is going

24:21

on and just immediately that

24:23

spaciousness can help , at least for me

24:25

, relax my system of

24:28

like okay , something much bigger

24:30

is going on , or this might

24:32

be why this is happening , or I don't even have to make

24:34

sense of it all , but just knowing

24:36

that this is part of what life

24:38

is .

24:39

Yeah , I can feel that and also helps me relax

24:41

to , because I , you know , ultimately

24:44

it's the question of meaning to

24:46

sort of dip into some of the essence , I think

24:48

, of this sign . It's like Because

24:50

it's coming out of the sign before it

24:53

of Scorpio , right , it's like it's

24:55

very important that , after coming through the

24:57

dark night of the soul and death process

24:59

, to come into a sense of meaning . Of

25:01

course Sagittarius can have a reputation for jumping

25:04

forward because it wants to get to that meaning straight

25:06

away . But the other

25:08

side of it would be to not make it

25:10

above that horizontal line and to be such

25:12

back into that vortex place

25:14

. And this is why I am one of our

25:16

favorite you and you and I . One of our

25:18

favorite characters is the I am be who's

25:22

who's who shows up in the midst

25:24

of dammit , is grieving process and

25:27

just makes a laugh

25:29

with the inappropriate humor

25:31

you know . We don't know exactly what

25:33

she said , but she's clearly said something that is

25:36

a little bit off beat and off key

25:38

. And then pretty soon dammit is

25:40

rolling around on the floor and just from that laughter

25:42

she's able to not necessarily

25:44

fully move on because they're still much

25:46

more of the journey to go in her in

25:48

her myth , but she's able to

25:50

sort of like tap back into some

25:52

kind of a central life force and and

25:55

the joy and the thrill

25:57

of it all , even in the darkest times , is

25:59

like , wow , what it is . And all

26:01

of this is a miracle . It's sort of like comes back

26:03

to something essential of Of the

26:06

fact that I can even be in

26:08

this consciousness , in this body , and experiencing

26:11

this great tragedy is

26:13

in itself still a miracle , you

26:15

know even if I hate it and

26:17

I know and I've lost a lot , and I

26:19

mean the terrible , painful , tragic

26:22

, traumatic experience . It's

26:25

still a miracle that anything is happening at all

26:27

, in a way like some

26:29

kind of baseline of the miracle of life .

26:31

I think that's so important and you know

26:33

I'm sure many listeners can

26:36

probably relate of how

26:38

that one laugh can shift

26:40

something . You know , you might be in this

26:43

split Space and you'll

26:45

watch a movie that makes you

26:47

laugh , or a friend will , you know

26:49

, remind you of something from high school

26:51

or whatever it might be , and like

26:53

, literally , that happened to me last week In

26:56

you know , in quite a low place and

26:58

then when laughter was brought back in and

27:00

I remember , all right , yes , life is hard

27:03

and I'm going through these things , but I can still Laugh

27:06

at the absurdity of it all or remember

27:09

that it's not this one possible

27:12

thing and I think you and

27:14

I are so passionate about . I am because I'm

27:17

just like more people need to know about her , she , she

27:20

was the only person that was

27:22

able to help me like

27:24

, yeah , beautiful

27:26

yeah . Of any single

27:28

God God is human , animal

27:30

, beast the one

27:32

that could help was laughter

27:35

you know just enough to help

27:37

her remove herself from where she was

27:39

, that grief returner to perspective

27:42

, or that upward arrow of okay

27:44

, I'm Rejuvenated

27:47

. I remember , you know , maybe that's it . I

27:49

remember why I'm doing this you

27:51

know her case . I'm finding

27:53

my daughter okay . I have that energy

27:55

that that life giving energy

27:58

that that laugh gave to me to

28:00

be able to continue my quest or my adventure

28:02

.

28:03

And it's such an interesting choice of words rejuvenated

28:05

, because in the middle of that is you , which

28:08

I'm gonna assume

28:10

it comes from Joe , and Joe Vio

28:13

, which is Jupiter , like

28:15

Joe is Jupiter , right

28:17

, so so it's basically to get

28:19

it's the same as enthusiasm

28:22

comes from , like the middle of that

28:24

is through , which is awfully

28:27

close to Zeus , right , so it's

28:29

actually enthusiasm is to remember the God

28:31

within order to get back in touch with the God

28:33

and specifically get

28:35

back in touch with Zeus and

28:37

to and Joe Vio

28:40

is is also

28:42

Jupiter . So these , these

28:44

are language does take us back

28:46

to those places .

28:48

I was gonna ask you if , if

28:50

Zeus wants to make his , his

28:52

self known through any myths

28:55

or any stories that come to mind

28:57

. Or yeah , on high

28:59

Mount Olympus , looking

29:01

down , both Chris and I have seen Jupiter

29:04

in the sky . I saw it just

29:06

before I started recording and , I think , chris

29:08

, last night yeah , so . And

29:10

he we were laughing that he always makes himself

29:13

known and you always know when you're

29:15

looking at Jupiter . I don't know , always

29:17

know . That's the one of course as

29:19

a , as a planet .

29:20

It's the biggest planet in the solar system

29:23

. As we go through the planets we have , you

29:26

know , the sun , obviously , and then it goes Mercury

29:29

, venus , earth , mars

29:31

, that's a sort of like in a planet closest to the sun

29:33

, and

29:35

then after Mars , we have to go really

29:37

, really , really long way , and that

29:40

that arrow of Mars

29:42

points to this idea that's

29:44

out there way beyond these inner planets

29:46

, and that's when we get to Jupiter and

29:49

Jupiter is a big gas

29:51

giant with over a hundred moons

29:53

circling around it get

29:55

gathering more moons , so it's

29:57

later pulling in moons from the , from

30:00

the atmosphere , pulling in this debris and making itself

30:02

another moon , which

30:04

is kind of like interesting around . You

30:06

know , most of these moons they name after

30:09

Zeus's lovers actually . So Europa

30:11

is one of the moons and these Because

30:14

he was he was promiscuous in that way he

30:16

was generative , we could say , to be generous to him . So

30:22

when you're looking at Jupiter , you kind of get that

30:24

sense of this , you know . So it's bright

30:27

in the sky , it's one

30:29

of the brighter stars . Of course , those inner stars

30:31

, like Venus

30:33

, can be extremely bright . So Venus

30:36

and Jupiter are sort of two of the brightest

30:38

stars out in the sky , and

30:40

Jupiter particularly so because it's so far

30:42

away but it's so big so it really

30:45

shows up bright . Now

30:47

, jupiter was the Roman name for the God

30:49

Zeus , and it's

30:51

interesting even there that the difference between

30:54

Jupiter and Zeus , like they're just

30:56

such different feeling God's

30:58

, I think , different feeling names , but

31:00

of course it's the same . It's the same basic

31:02

God . The reason we're talking about Jupiter

31:05

, by the way , is that it's the ruler of Sagittarius

31:07

. So each of the signs

31:09

has a ruler , and Jupiter

31:11

is the ruler of Sagittarius , and each of those rulers

31:14

of the science give us a whole other complexity

31:17

to what the sign is ultimately about

31:19

, and that's why they thought well , why don't

31:21

we go into the planet ruler Jupiter

31:23

and just have a feel of that ? Just like when we Are

31:26

talking about Libra , we talk about Venus because

31:28

she's the ruler of Libra . So

31:31

Jupiter , zeus , many , many

31:33

, many , many , many stories About

31:37

Zeus and we get this idea definitely

31:39

needs more Sagittarian element

31:41

is the king of the gods . He's the

31:43

ruler , he's the one with the wisdom

31:46

, he's who people turn

31:48

to to bring

31:50

a judgment down or some kind of justice

31:52

considered to

31:54

be very much benevolent . You know , in his

31:56

origin story , chronos , who's

31:59

saddened , is swallowing all

32:01

of his children , right because he

32:03

there's been a prophecy that he's going to

32:05

be overthrown by one

32:07

of his children . So rather than let

32:09

that happen chronos is the idea

32:12

as well as each one is born on , just

32:14

swallow it . So just eat my

32:16

children and that's a great solution

32:18

, very chronos , saturnian

32:20

solution . And

32:23

the sixth child that's born

32:25

is Zeus or

32:27

Jupiter . And rather than

32:30

Zeus being swallowed , his

32:32

mother Rea puts a rock

32:35

in swaddling clothes and hands that

32:37

to her husband , chronos , and he

32:39

eats that down instead . And they whisk away

32:41

Zeus into

32:43

a kind of a paradise realm

32:45

where he is free

32:48

and he's having this happy childhood

32:51

and he's raised by Amothea , who's the

32:53

sister of Pan , who gives

32:55

him mother's milk and she's like

32:57

a nanny goat , so he gets this kind

32:59

of like mother's milk coming from the

33:01

nanny goat . He has a mentor

33:03

or a teacher named

33:06

Metis and she's very important

33:08

in the story because , because Metis

33:10

is this wise oceanid and

33:13

we get this sense of like , not only is this

33:15

taught by the oceanid , so so

33:17

taught by ocean wisdom . I think

33:19

that's a very important part of this

33:21

is there's an oceanic , collective

33:25

, unconscious , sort of deep cellular

33:27

memory that is taught

33:30

. But of course , zeus isn't the best student

33:32

in the world , so he doesn't like fully learn

33:34

all of these things , because basically he's thinking

33:37

about , like when does he get to have sex with

33:39

Metis ? I mean , especially when

33:41

it comes into his teen years ? Like , well , when

33:43

does this turn into sex , you know ? And she's

33:45

like , no , zeus , no , no , no

33:47

, you're here to learn all these lessons , right , and

33:50

then by the time you know , zeus

33:52

is ready to marry Hera and become

33:54

the king of all of the gods . It's

33:56

almost like Metis is like he hasn't

33:59

fully learned , he hasn't

34:01

fully taken in all of the lessons that

34:03

I've been teaching him , because those

34:05

lessons are very Sagittarian too . Right

34:07

, like teacher , the guru , the mentor

34:10

are in the Sagittarian realm , but

34:12

the ocean wisdom is

34:14

the other thing that Jupiter

34:17

rules , which is Pisces , which is the final

34:19

sign of the zodiac . But we're not in that

34:21

water , we're in the fire right now , and

34:23

it's hard to learn in that

34:25

way all of the things that Metis comes

34:28

up with . A new solution to this is like I'm going

34:30

to locate myself inside of Zeus's

34:32

head . That's the only way that I can really

34:34

make sure that he has

34:36

sufficient wisdom , and if I try to teach

34:39

him and impart the knowledge , he hasn't been

34:41

able to fully learn it . So

34:43

on their wedding day they go into

34:45

you know the story , but they shape

34:47

, shift into multiple shapes . Eventually

34:50

they do make love and

34:53

then , after they've made love , metis

34:55

turns her into herself , into a fly

34:57

. She says to Zeus I bet you can't catch me

34:59

turns herself into a fly . Instinctively

35:03

, zeus turns himself into a lizard

35:05

, which is interesting because that's the ultimate

35:07

regressed sort of state

35:09

, is to go all the way back to reptilian

35:11

and then also

35:14

instinctively sticks out his tongue and

35:16

takes Metis into him himself , and

35:19

so that was Metis's plan all along

35:21

. Now she's located on the inside and

35:24

then , when he comes back into his human form , nine

35:26

months later , athena is

35:28

born from his skull

35:31

, basically . And so

35:33

Athena is the daughter , therefore , of Zeus

35:35

and Metis . But

35:37

also what I'd like to remember there

35:39

is that Metis is ultimately the wisdom

35:42

keeper that lives inside of Zeus's

35:44

mind or gut or wherever

35:46

she is . She's in there kind

35:48

of forever talking to him

35:50

in a way forever , giving him

35:53

just that little bit of extra wisdom . So he

35:55

has the wisdom of the learnings

35:57

, but he also has something more

35:59

intrinsic of the oceanic cellular

36:03

knowing in him too , which is

36:05

what makes him such a great actually

36:08

a really great ruler . Not because

36:10

of his own knowing , but because inside

36:12

of him , metis is also at

36:15

play .

36:15

Yeah , I love that myth and so

36:18

often we hear with Jupiter

36:20

Zeus you know it's the , the

36:23

wanderer , the flounder that you

36:25

know cheated on here all the time having fun

36:27

doing all these different things , which

36:29

, of course , is part of him , and you can see that in the

36:31

Saj of freedom loving

36:33

. You know , I'm just gonna go here and here and I'm

36:35

just gonna . You know , what I

36:37

thought of was that fire

36:40

energy . That's Saj , is that passion . You

36:42

know , following that passion , if that

36:44

passion is alive and you

36:46

know , like my dying fire this morning

36:48

. If it's not there

36:50

, it feels empty . And so

36:53

there's this one side to Zeus

36:55

, but there is this deep , meaningful

36:57

with him and Metis sort of merging

36:59

into one that is kind of able to

37:01

almost act as that arrow a little bit

37:04

, you know , help him Not

37:07

stay in potentially I wouldn't

37:09

by any means say

37:11

boyish , but this sort of like no

37:14

consequences metis

37:16

sort of brings back . That's

37:19

what is it all

37:21

for . Go deeper , go

37:23

deep to rise up type of energy , because

37:28

within that wisdom , because it there

37:30

is forget how you said it but the

37:32

sort of oceanic , cellular

37:34

wisdom . And when you said that I felt that

37:36

all over and I think a lot of people it's

37:39

. You know that's what with the consensus

37:42

reality . You , you know what that

37:44

means . You know what that feels like deep within

37:46

. So

37:48

I've always loved that myth and and

37:51

metis for also just knowing who she's dealing

37:53

with . She

37:56

knows and even within that method , there's

37:58

playfulness , there's fun , there's laughter .

38:00

Yeah , that's it .

38:03

You know all of it . You know the , the king

38:05

of gods , gets into

38:07

as much trouble as the next person . Exactly

38:09

which ?

38:09

is why I really love Greek mythology

38:12

and Zeus . And you know , it's not like

38:14

the , it's not a moralistic tale , it's a life

38:17

tale . It tells you about things and

38:19

and doesn't tell you how

38:21

to live . It just says like well , here's all the different

38:23

. There's a huge array

38:25

of different human experiences and you

38:27

can just kind of like sit with all of that , we won't

38:29

give you some lesson . We'll

38:31

just let you kind of sit in it and wander

38:33

around in this , but it's interesting . You mentioned

38:35

consequences . So yeah , the Sagittarius

38:37

element would be

38:39

not so keen on hanging around

38:41

to see what the consequences actually are . Of course

38:44

, right Like who wants that ? Right

38:46

, like , ultimately this may

38:48

be coming back to those expressions of non-committal

38:51

and what have . You Don't

38:54

want to see the consequences . So then what would

38:56

happen is that consequences would be

38:58

projected out , and I think that's what's really interesting

39:00

in the relationship between Zeus and Hera

39:03

, because Hera , being the great

39:05

mother , is ultimately

39:07

bringing the consequences to all of Zeus's

39:10

happen , all of Zeus's happenings in

39:12

the world . And because Zeus can't

39:14

help himself . He finds the world very beautiful

39:16

and he has to go and interact

39:18

with it all the time , and particularly

39:21

he interacts with women and the occasional

39:23

young man . And this guy like

39:25

Ganymede he has a little fling

39:27

with Ganymede , these kinds of things he just finds

39:30

beautiful things beautiful . He wants to get in

39:32

there and amongst it . But of course he's married to

39:34

Hera and he has this whole relationship

39:36

with her . And so we see this dichotomy

39:39

in a way and Jason Holly talks about the

39:42

day world , night world dichotomy you

39:44

know , the day world version of Zeus is the

39:46

king of kings and he's on the throne . He

39:48

reminds us of that white

39:51

bearded man in the sky that we've all been

39:53

taught is God and these kinds of things

39:55

. He is the image of that , ultimately

39:57

. And then also he has these complete

39:59

night world persona where

40:02

he's running around in the night time

40:04

chasing nymphs , chasing , chasing , chasing

40:07

. Whoever's pretty , whoever's like , grabs

40:09

his attention and he just can't help himself

40:11

. And when he does that , every

40:13

time he does that , hera finds

40:16

out , obviously easily , she

40:18

knows , and then it

40:21

acts , that Saturnian consciousness

40:23

, because Hera is very close

40:26

to her father Cronus , she's

40:28

kind of like one with the Cronus energy

40:31

or the archetypal force of Saturnian

40:33

consciousness , and so she's

40:35

like well , there are consequences . There

40:38

are consequences usually for the women

40:40

, so usually for the mortals . Is

40:42

the way to say that the mortals are the one that

40:44

take on the consequences of the gods disputes

40:47

? Another piece of like solid

40:49

mythic wisdom . there , you know , it's

40:51

the gods that are having trouble , but

40:54

the humans have to play that trouble out , sometimes

40:57

tragically and sometimes comedically , and

40:59

sometimes everything in between , right

41:01

, but that's the thing . It is the desire

41:04

for that ultimate . I just want

41:06

to be free , I just want to express , I want

41:08

to just create , I want to find

41:10

things out , I want to have multiple experiences

41:13

with multiple people and

41:15

then it's like , well , there are consequences to that

41:17

, and there are . You know , there are broken hearts

41:19

and there are , there's painful scenarios

41:22

and there's all sorts of things can come out of

41:25

that , that , while you're having all , that fun

41:27

here's the consequences , following not far behind

41:29

, and Zeus doesn't want any of those consequences

41:31

, but they come for him or they come

41:33

for you know . You get the sense of , like

41:36

I don't think he feels so good when , say

41:38

, ayo gets turned into you know

41:40

a cow and then gets haunted

41:43

by this gadfly for the rest of her life

41:45

. Like I don't think Zeus feels so good

41:47

about that little fling that he decided to have

41:49

with Ayo , right , like he ? Was

41:52

just trying to have a little fun . She has

41:54

to pay for that for the rest of her existence

41:56

. Not so great .

41:58

Yeah , yeah , I

42:01

think that's , you know , reminded

42:03

me of some other words

42:05

around Sagittarius and

42:08

Jupiter , abundance , but when abundance

42:10

crosses over into excess , and

42:12

so that there it's that very

42:14

like razor edge

42:17

between the two . And so , even with Zeus's

42:19

life , you know the

42:21

abundance of beautiful women and

42:23

men all around in nature and the freedom

42:25

and I'm the king of gods and I can you know . Look

42:28

at this abundant , beautiful heaven

42:30

that I've created . And then , when it

42:32

crosses over into excess , and

42:35

yeah , the consequences aren't the

42:37

, the , the

42:39

feeling that you know I

42:42

can keep doing whatever I want , and

42:44

and and it stops there

42:46

, and you know , and that's

42:49

all the sort of mind is saying

42:51

is , oh , I can just do whatever I want .

42:53

Yeah , and so that moment , why

42:55

not ?

42:56

And it's such a like I noticed

42:58

I can catch those those Jupiterian

43:00

moments in my

43:02

life just in the most minimal way of . You

43:04

know , I grow my own vegetables

43:07

and I have all these herbs and I'm

43:09

like , oh , I'll just keep making my tea

43:11

all the time , all the time , like

43:13

it won't run out , and

43:16

then I'm out of , I'm

43:19

out of my peppermint leaves or whatever they

43:21

might be , and like , oh right , just because

43:23

I wanted more , more , more , more , more doesn't

43:26

mean that that's actually possible . And

43:29

you know , or I'll just put

43:31

on all the hot sauce that I want , because

43:33

, whatever it doesn't matter and then I can't eat

43:35

my food Like they're so small

43:37

. but I kind of enjoy finding

43:39

these moments because I'm like oh , that Jupiter in

43:41

me , you know , just like whatever

43:44

you know right . So

43:47

that Saturn or a hero or

43:49

Capricorn is like ? Well , let me tell

43:51

you what that actually means

43:53

, Right ?

43:54

Well , it's interesting . A couple of

43:56

images are coming off . This for me one in

44:00

the sense of the integrated Zeus

44:02

metis , as he said . That's the center

44:04

, isn't it Like ? So we can , we can get

44:07

a . We can now go into the image

44:09

of the actual constellation as a center

44:11

with a bone arrow , rather than just a bone arrow

44:13

. It's a center which is a half

44:16

horse like horse on the on the lower

44:18

side , human on the upper side

44:20

, and many

44:22

images can come of that . But also

44:24

the , the arches that we know in

44:27

in mythology

44:29

, for instance Apollo and Artemis

44:32

, the twins , both with

44:34

a bow and arrow , both

44:37

whom , of whom I've talked about

44:39

quite a lot on the show , and in particularly Artemis

44:42

. And so Artemis , again , you know

44:44

, she has a relationship

44:46

to Virgo as the Virgin Goddess

44:48

. She has a relationship to Scorpio

44:50

in a relations with Orion

44:53

, cause , as you were talking about that , you

44:55

know , the excess Orion's

44:57

story is that he does , he's a great hunter , but

44:59

he doesn't know when to stop hunting . He doesn't

45:02

know he . He's actually trying to wipe

45:04

out all the wilderness . And

45:06

he has a relationship to Zeus

45:09

as in well , his

45:11

birth story is really interesting that

45:13

the carcass of a

45:15

bear is pissed

45:17

on by Zeus

45:20

, hermes and Poseidon

45:22

, and that gives birth to

45:25

Orion . So

45:27

this is a character that has no mother and is

45:29

only born from male masculine

45:31

energy and then ends up

45:33

being this hunter , who's an amazing

45:35

hunter , you know . He's a giant

45:37

, basically , is his Godlike , but

45:40

he doesn't know when to stop hunting

45:42

, he doesn't know when to stop taking from nature

45:44

, and so Artemis becomes this

45:46

other figure within this , that that

45:49

falls for Orion but then

45:51

gets really put off by his excesses

45:54

, kind of thing . So you

45:56

know , like there is that , and maybe

45:59

in that sense , because all of these archetypes

46:01

and polytheistic traditions , they they draw

46:04

together , they draw to themselves the opposite

46:06

right , because Artemis' style

46:08

of hunting is is to

46:11

make sure that there's always going to be abundance

46:14

, because she doesn't take more than

46:16

she needs at any given time , and so she's

46:18

a . That just makes her such an interesting

46:21

figure . She's a protector of the animals , but

46:23

also a hunter , or a huntress

46:25

.

46:26

You know .

46:26

so she does both . She's able to see

46:29

that there's no great dichotomy there . There's

46:31

actually . That's that's her being animal

46:33

, that's her being a part of nature and integrated

46:35

into it , Whereas Orion forgets these

46:37

are part of nature . So

46:40

, lots of images coming out of this , but I just

46:42

wanted to sort of mention that

46:44

, because Orion was somebody that that

46:47

I talked with Jason Holly about

46:49

. We had a whole episode about Artemis

46:51

and Orion recently on

46:54

the podcast in Scorpio season . So

46:56

we can also see just like how

46:58

intrinsically there is

47:01

a storyline of the Zodiac that it does

47:03

, that it really is like Scorpio

47:05

does lead into Sagittarius , which does lead

47:07

into Capricorn , and at this

47:09

point of the Zodiac you can get real sense

47:12

of that , real feel for that . You

47:14

know , even going back to Libra

47:16

was the claws of the Scorpion , the

47:18

scales of the claws of the Scorpion , those

47:20

yes , no right , wrong things

47:22

take us into the deep waters of Scorpio

47:25

. Out of that we

47:27

or even you know like relationship

47:31

, another way to say it takes us into

47:33

the depths of of the

47:35

Scorpion , even if we think

47:37

we're just in this really light , fun , playful

47:40

thing of Libra , it's all love and

47:42

light and everything . Then we get taken into the Scorpio

47:45

realm . You know , and that's

47:47

, that's funnily enough , if the

47:49

score , if the story is going well , we'll

47:51

go into the Scorpio realm actually , because it'll

47:53

move out of , out of the Libran into

47:55

the Scorpion , then into the Sagittarius , but

47:57

there's no skipping that journey . There's

48:00

no , there's no way to just bounce

48:02

over Scorpio

48:05

into Sag .

48:07

And you know , talking about relationships

48:10

, those Scorpio

48:12

waters are those soul bonding waters

48:15

. You know , am I life

48:17

or death ? Am I going to get through it ? And if

48:19

you are lucky enough to come up the other side

48:21

, oftentimes you're stronger

48:24

for it . You understand what it is all

48:26

for , you see the

48:28

realness of what it is to be human

48:31

, and then bring that into

48:33

life , into your world , into your relationship

48:35

and hopefully it

48:39

fuels you , it grounds you

48:41

, it bonds you , it

48:43

rejuvenates you for

48:46

the next journey .

48:48

Yeah , absolutely so

48:51

. Within that we have these two arches . An

48:53

archery is an interesting thing , According

48:55

to as reading some of Brian Clark's work

48:57

around this , and he said that generally

49:00

the Greeks , the bow

49:02

and arrow came a bit late to them . In

49:04

fact , in the Persian invasion in the fifth century

49:07

BCE , that

49:10

was their first encounter with bow and arrows , so they

49:12

did . That's why they put bow and arrows

49:14

in the hands of centaurs

49:17

, Cause one

49:19

idea around centaurs

49:22

as a mythology is like when the Persians invaded

49:24

, they came in from the north and

49:27

they were on horseback with bow and arrow

49:29

, and so that was an image that

49:31

they hadn't really seen before . So

49:33

, it all got sort of like mythologized

49:35

into the center or this

49:37

kind of barbaric force that came in

49:39

and Athens was

49:41

a symbol of order

49:44

and democracy , and this chaotic

49:46

force came in or how it would have been felt

49:48

in Athens at the time is this big chaotic

49:50

force in the form of these centaurs with bow and arrows

49:53

, and then they can hit you from distance , which

49:55

is new because they're working mostly with swords

49:57

and armor and things and now suddenly you can get hit

50:00

from a distance . So , and

50:02

also they really tore apart the entire

50:04

Athens society and

50:07

then built it back up again . That was what was

50:09

really interesting about that period of history is that

50:11

then the Persians came back to help them build

50:13

up things after the battle

50:15

, which is kind of like Scorpion

50:17

and the Sajin , its own way Right . So

50:21

this , this bow

50:23

and arrow , was different and new , but

50:25

then they really embraced it into the mythology

50:27

, because Apollo has bow and arrow , artemis

50:29

has the bow and arrow , eros has

50:31

the bow and arrow , which is really interesting

50:34

. That

50:36

in itself is interesting . About what kind of bow

50:38

and arrow are we talking about ? You

50:42

know , there's a great little side

50:44

story there around

50:47

. Apollo was teasing

50:49

Eros one day about his arrow . It's

50:52

like that little thing . What damage can you do

50:54

with that ? Just kind of like giving

50:56

him , giving him crap about this bow

50:58

and arrow that he had . It's kind of like the crocodile

51:00

Dundee scene of call

51:03

that a knife , this is a knife , that kind of scene

51:05

, right . And so Eros flies

51:07

away a bit upset and he's like , well , I'm going to get back

51:09

at this guy . So he comes back and

51:11

Apollo is never really fallen in love with anybody

51:13

at that point gets hit by one

51:15

of Eros's arrows but he makes

51:17

him fall in love with Daphne , who's a follower

51:20

of Artemis , his twin sister

51:22

, and therefore chased and

51:25

therefore not open to any form of

51:27

relating . And the pain that Apollo

51:29

experiences by being in love with someone

51:31

that doesn't love him or how it doesn't

51:33

have any interest in him and doesn't even have

51:35

any interest in anything in the world

51:38

of relating , is so

51:40

intense for him . It's

51:43

like he has this longing that . And then

51:45

he realizes like wow , I thought

51:47

these arrows that I had were powerful , but that

51:49

is a powerful arrow , you

51:51

know . This longing that he has , this intense

51:54

desire , is so

51:56

much more painful than anything he's ever experienced

51:58

.

51:59

Wow , that's very cool

52:01

. I like that . Yeah , it's not just physical

52:04

pain . It's not just physical , no

52:08

, it can get you from anywhere . Whoa

52:10

, that's deep and it might be something

52:12

of the .

52:13

Sagittarian journey with that arrow right

52:15

, is that it's a longing , it's

52:17

a divine longing , it's almost like the

52:19

opposite of . Sagittarius is the twins of

52:21

Gemini . It's a longing to find that

52:23

twin again , to find that immortal

52:26

twin , to find that other

52:28

side of myself , to find

52:31

God , to find real

52:33

meaning . Like what is this place , you know

52:35

? Like this ? Kind of energy right , and so the

52:37

longing is so intense it can

52:39

be in this energy .

52:41

Yeah , and that secret

52:43

energy that we were talking about you know , just keep

52:45

going , keep going . I know it's just

52:47

beyond just beyond that hill , just

52:49

beyond that next mountain

52:51

top , or whatever it is .

52:53

Which is one of the tragedies of

52:55

the shadow Sagittarian experience

52:58

. When all of that energy

53:00

gets projected onto

53:02

a guru , let's say and

53:06

then you've gone like , oh my God

53:08

, I've found it . And then imagine if

53:10

your , like so often happens , let

53:12

down or disappointed by that guru , or

53:14

they become only too human

53:16

and do only two human things

53:19

you know . If only you had better mythology . Like

53:21

you know , Zeus goes and sleeps

53:23

around right . Like you actually know

53:26

that he does pretty deplorable stuff

53:28

actually , but we don't have that we

53:30

have a God image and so that God image is

53:32

put on this guru and

53:34

the devastating , like it's

53:36

devastating for the seeker to

53:38

find the guru and then be disappointed by

53:40

that guru . And I know there's many stories

53:43

, I mean we've all seen a

53:45

lot of us have seen , you know , wild Wild Country

53:47

and all these different , many

53:51

, many , many examples , some very

53:53

, very dark and some , just

53:55

you know , not as dark , but

53:59

of the guru playing

54:01

out the shadow right or playing out a trickster

54:03

energy . And imagine

54:05

that you've put all of your , you've

54:08

really projected all of your

54:10

God seeking-ness into

54:13

that person , and then they lay you down I

54:17

think it was really beautifully explored in the

54:19

movie Kumare . Have

54:23

you seen this one ? I haven't seen it when

54:25

the guy actually , you know , documents

54:28

it and pretends to be a guru , just

54:30

to see you know what will happen here and when

54:33

he reveals himself just as not the guru

54:35

. You see some of the people

54:37

that's so broken by that

54:39

that you know

54:41

cause . He was sort of like playing around with this concept

54:43

, but in the end it got really real for

54:45

the people you know , and some of them refuse

54:48

to ever talk to him again or talk to

54:50

anyone about it again . And

54:53

then you can have that wound , the divine wound

54:55

that comes in like you

54:57

almost can make a conclusion of like so

54:59

there is no divinity , or there is no God

55:01

, or there is nothing to seek for , rather than

55:04

saying like no , the problem isn't that . The

55:06

problem is that I projected all of that into this one

55:08

human or this one outfit

55:11

or this one you know religion

55:14

or this one thing , and it let me down , you

55:17

know . Actually the thing . The human

55:19

let me down . The divine was still there , but

55:21

the human side actually let me down , and that's a

55:23

distinction that we can really fail to make

55:25

. And we can be back to that middle

55:27

of the bagel experience where everything

55:29

feels empty and void , like right , Because

55:32

we're not interacting

55:34

with reality in a

55:36

creative and imaginative way anymore

55:38

. We sort of hand

55:40

it over to that person to be the imaginative

55:44

, creative guru figure

55:46

and we lose that within ourselves

55:48

. But I mean , that arrow is pointing

55:50

to something out there , isn't it ? I mean

55:53

that's not pointing to something in here . In fact , some

55:55

say that the arrow

55:57

is pointing to the galactic central

55:59

point . Right , that's one of the things of the Sagittarian

56:01

arrow is it points right to the center

56:03

of the galaxy . Whether

56:07

or not that's astronomically true I don't know , but

56:09

as a mythic theme it feels true

56:11

that that arrow is actually pointing

56:14

to something really at the heart of the experience

56:16

, and I have to be able to see that that's within

56:18

me . If it's in the universe , it's also

56:20

within me , but

56:23

not confuse myself as God . So you can

56:25

see just how convoluted

56:28

the whole thing is in Sagittarius in the end

56:30

, as we get closer to essence .

56:33

Yeah , and how you keep seeking . You

56:35

know , is it me , Is it God ?

56:37

Yes .

56:37

It's philosophy , the person is it

56:40

you know wanting . Is it the

56:42

guru just trying to get to that ?

56:43

center . Is it the lover , Is it the partner

56:45

? Is it the ?

56:46

you know , like all of this right . Yeah

56:50

, exactly , let me put it somewhere

56:53

so that I can , you know , feel

56:56

held in that , or feel that , that safety

56:58

that there's something greater than

57:00

me . Yeah , yeah .

57:04

Yeah , it's a lot . I think we'd need to go just

57:06

a little bit more into centaurs . So

57:10

you know , centaurs , you

57:12

had the really , really wild centaurs

57:15

and most , most of the centaurs were

57:17

wild and unruly

57:20

, had no respect for civilization

57:22

at all . Even the civilizing process

57:24

which is interesting because

57:26

I think Sagittarius is the civilizing

57:29

process in a way right , it's like it

57:31

is these higher ideals and what have

57:33

you . So it is there is an element

57:35

of Sagittarius that is trying to lift out of

57:38

the animal experience

57:40

, but then in , but then these animals

57:42

are coming back and tearing

57:44

everything apart . So I don't know if

57:46

you saw when you were in Athens , but one

57:48

of the four big battles was the centaura

57:51

Marquis , which was the battle with the

57:53

Lapits versus the centaurs , where

57:55

basically the centaurs came and

57:58

invaded a wedding , the big wedding feast

58:00

, you know , and the centaurs came and just

58:03

caused all sorts of havoc Because

58:07

ultimately , that's it right , like this

58:10

animal side of us doesn't want to be civilized

58:12

. Actually , we feel , you know

58:14

, freud said that the essential

58:17

wound of

58:19

all of us is that

58:21

we were civilized by

58:23

our parents and we resent that Our

58:28

parents . Civilizing us is the essential

58:30

wound because when we came out we were animal

58:33

and then we had to go through a civilizing

58:35

process . It's an unavoidable thing , unless

58:37

we , you know , are just kind of

58:39

like born in the Amazon or were born into

58:42

a tribe that hasn't lost touch with any

58:44

of that , but for most

58:46

of us in the world , there is

58:48

a hidden resentment towards the parents and

58:50

towards the family unit for civilizing us

58:52

. Isn't that an interesting insight from

58:55

Freud ?

58:56

That is . I've never heard that , but that's

58:58

very fascinating .

59:00

Which is sort of the wound . So Chiron , the other

59:02

centaur , the wise centaur , the gentle

59:04

centaur right , ends up living

59:06

his life as this very . He is

59:08

still half horse , half

59:10

man , but he's living

59:13

his life as a gentle healer

59:15

. He's raised

59:17

by Apollo and Athena , so he's given

59:20

the civilizing process , but he never

59:22

loses touch with his animal self . So

59:24

we get like almost an image

59:27

that can give us almost

59:29

a resolution in a mythic way to

59:31

this dilemma , almost through Chiron . But

59:33

then Chiron gets wounded in that thigh

59:35

right , he gets wounded by

59:38

one of Hercules arrows , he gets wounded accidentally

59:40

by one of his students and

59:42

this heroic

59:45

figure , the ultimate hero , you

59:47

know the Leo archetype

59:50

, ends up wounding the Sagittarius

59:53

archetype right , like the hero

59:55

accidentally wounds

59:57

the centaur that

59:59

perhaps is at the heart of the Sagittarian experience

1:00:02

.

1:00:03

And for me it's also the half horse

1:00:05

, half human or half beast

1:00:07

, half human is the beautiful

1:00:10

combination of instincts and intuition

1:00:12

. And I had this conversation

1:00:15

with Brian Clark a couple

1:00:17

months ago and I was really starting to try

1:00:19

and see , try

1:00:22

and figure out the difference between instincts

1:00:24

and intuition . And

1:00:27

there's something about that that

1:00:29

makes me think of Centaur , of

1:00:31

having this animal

1:00:34

primal instinct , but

1:00:36

also having this is just

1:00:38

my personal belief with intuition . But there

1:00:40

is a connection to the divine or something bigger than

1:00:43

me , and so it's working . These two , it's coming

1:00:45

from in your bones and

1:00:48

also some something in

1:00:50

you forward . So I always find that with Centaur is

1:00:52

very an integrated

1:00:54

Centaur , not the really wild ones

1:00:57

that we were talking about , that destroyed everything

1:00:59

. But if you're able to harness

1:01:02

both of those , you know that's the gift

1:01:05

and the power of Sagittarius , you know that's

1:01:07

a really powerful combination to lead

1:01:09

from , to get that arrow from .

1:01:12

Yeah , totally endless , like we can

1:01:14

forget that . That is sort of

1:01:16

what's trying to happen or what's trying to occur

1:01:19

in this sign , right , like so we can get

1:01:21

sort of again fix dated on

1:01:23

that vision but forget about the animal

1:01:25

self or you know again

1:01:27

all these sorts of things that can happen , yeah

1:01:30

, but what is that ? How do we , how

1:01:33

do we find ways to get the most

1:01:35

out of both of those things rather than have

1:01:37

them pitted against each other , right , like ? So

1:01:39

the instincts are so important

1:01:41

and the intuition is so important

1:01:44

that you can't . You

1:01:46

can't just discredit one and just have one and

1:01:48

not the other , and that's what the image of

1:01:50

the Centaur is . So . Glad that there is a Centaur

1:01:52

underneath that arrow right , because if it's just

1:01:54

the arrow , then it gets , it's just completely

1:01:57

loses touch with the animal side . And it's obviously

1:01:59

something that is discussed again and

1:02:01

again in this podcast in the sense

1:02:03

of like , how do we rewild

1:02:05

ourselves while keeping the wisdom ? That's

1:02:07

what you know keeping actually

1:02:10

not demonizing civilization

1:02:12

as though it's civilization's fault . The world's

1:02:14

going to shit , it's . It's easy to find

1:02:16

that as a conclusion , looking

1:02:18

around , that it's civilization's fault , but actually

1:02:21

it's less about civilization's

1:02:23

fault , it's just losing touch with the wild on the

1:02:25

process of civilization . You

1:02:27

know , with the genies

1:02:29

out of the bottle , right , we're not going to just kind of like

1:02:31

, throw consciousness away . That's not going to be

1:02:33

possible . But we could come back

1:02:35

to the sense of wild , which is why so

1:02:38

many of those stories , many of which are discussed

1:02:40

on this podcast , even sometimes the wild

1:02:42

God , which I brought in with James

1:02:44

Mattingly very early on , is an

1:02:46

example of that of like what happens when the wild

1:02:48

God knocks at the door and starts like just

1:02:51

grabbing your wine and , you know , breaking

1:02:53

stuff and and this , this

1:02:56

sort of energy , reenters

1:02:58

your life and reminds you of something that

1:03:01

you've , that you've lost or missed , you

1:03:03

know , reminds you of that wound in the thigh . Maybe

1:03:05

this is really good

1:03:07

stuff , faye . Very good exploration

1:03:10

of . Sagittarius , but of course we

1:03:12

could speak for another 15 days oh

1:03:15

if

1:03:19

only . But as it is

1:03:21

, as it is , we're going to have to start

1:03:23

coming down from

1:03:26

the stars and back

1:03:28

to our down from the mountain top .

1:03:30

Yeah yeah , this

1:03:32

was so wonderful for me as well

1:03:34

because you know I

1:03:36

have my views of Sagittarius nature and

1:03:38

I know how I see it in myself . But

1:03:41

this really brought a lot of important things

1:03:43

to late for me and explorations

1:03:45

, and I always just really value where

1:03:47

, where you , where you take us

1:03:49

and where we leave , what magic we leave

1:03:52

. So thank you .

1:03:53

Well , thank you , faye , and thank you for hosting this

1:03:55

episode as well . Really appreciate

1:03:58

that . Is there ? Do you feel like there's

1:04:00

a for you ? Is there an essential

1:04:02

thing that's come up , because we're always looking for

1:04:04

the essence here , right , if possible is

1:04:07

there anything that comes up as something of

1:04:09

the Sagittarius archetype that is somewhat

1:04:12

essential .

1:04:13

I think and this might just be

1:04:15

for me personally but the

1:04:17

essential piece that I'm taking from

1:04:19

this is how important

1:04:21

having that looking

1:04:24

towards that arrow is those visions

1:04:26

, you know how , how

1:04:28

life affirming , how soul nourishing

1:04:31

it is to have that and without that

1:04:33

, how lost you can feel

1:04:35

. And you know , of course , sometimes you don't know where

1:04:38

that arrow is going , but for

1:04:40

me that's when I can get

1:04:42

myself out of my limited

1:04:44

reality or whatever it might be . So that's

1:04:47

a big takeaway that I'm I'm

1:04:49

going to really remember and sort of the

1:04:52

what's beyond , what's beyond

1:04:54

and and allow you know

1:04:57

, saturn will have his

1:04:59

time in Capricorn , but really allowing

1:05:01

those visions and those dreams

1:05:03

to just permeate , without

1:05:05

any limitations . You know we didn't talk about

1:05:08

that . There's no limitations which

1:05:11

you put her inside . So really allowing

1:05:13

that arrow to sort of feel

1:05:15

that spaciousness to go wherever you

1:05:18

want it to go .

1:05:19

Yeah , it brings me back to this

1:05:21

. I guess it's a quote , I don't know , it's

1:05:23

an anonymous , I haven't really been able to find it

1:05:25

again , but it's something that I

1:05:27

heard and in my

1:05:29

twenties that felt like there was such

1:05:32

great wisdom in it and I feel it's very

1:05:34

Sagittarian wisdom and the

1:05:36

statement is don't

1:05:38

tell me how to live my life , show

1:05:40

me what's possible with yours . I

1:05:43

think that is the ultimate Sagittarian

1:05:46

statement and I love it

1:05:48

for so many reasons . But I just kind of go back

1:05:50

and forth between that . Sometimes it's like , oh

1:05:52

yeah , like I say it to myself , you know , like

1:05:54

some part of myself is telling me how to live my

1:05:56

life and it's like would show me , show me what's

1:05:58

possible , and that's going to be much

1:06:01

better for me than you telling

1:06:03

me right . Which means we do

1:06:05

have to step out of our everyday

1:06:07

world and step out onto the journey

1:06:09

and go on that big , you know adventure

1:06:12

. And then , only then , do we

1:06:14

look back and go , wow , so much more was possible

1:06:16

than my earlier self gave

1:06:18

credit for the universe . For

1:06:20

, you know like so much more was possible

1:06:22

on this earth , in this place , in this magical

1:06:25

place , and it's like that's

1:06:27

the kind of thing that I can forget , and when I forget

1:06:29

it , my life becomes very gray and

1:06:31

very dull and very boring .

1:06:34

And I don't like it Very

1:06:36

beige .

1:06:37

It's beige , all

1:06:42

right . Well , thank you , faye . Do you want to do you want to

1:06:44

lead us out of this episode ?

1:06:45

Sure , all right . Thank you

1:06:47

everyone for listening . Thanks

1:06:50

for tuning in to On the Souls Terms with Chris

1:06:52

Skidmore and me

1:06:54

as a guest , faye Northgrave , and

1:06:56

wishing you all the best and happy Sagittarius

1:06:58

season .

1:07:01

Thank you for listening to On the Souls Terms

1:07:03

podcast . To support

1:07:06

the show , please consider leaving a five star

1:07:08

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1:07:13

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1:07:16

next time .