0:30

You are listening to One Broken Mom it

0:32

podcast dedicated to raising awareness about

0:35

mental health, parenting and self improvement I'm

0:39

the host, Amee Quiriconi. One Broken Mom is not a family show. It

0:41

is intended for adults only and may contain

0:44

its own language. Sometimes the topics are

0:46

serious but you can count on the episodes to be

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a team. Also, One Broken

0:50

Mom is not offering any psychiatric

0:52

or medical diagnosis. We're just here

0:54

giving away useful and important information

0:57

so if you're ready to hear real talk by

0:59

real people so that we can all get better together,

1:01

then you're in the right place and welcome. Well

1:06

everyone, you are listening to the final

1:08

episode of season one and I want to

1:10

thank all of my listeners who have joined on

1:12

this journey with me for like the last 10 months. Today

1:15

is not just any episode

1:17

or interview. In fact really none

1:19

of them have been, I would say up to this point, but this one

1:21

is an incredibly important one for me. On

1:24

December 17th of 2017

1:26

I was reading what I believe was probably my

1:28

third book in the month on Narcissism

1:31

because even though I didn't see it,

1:33

even then, I was still

1:35

trapped in a narcissistic relationship.

1:37

I felt like I was out of it, but didn't realize it still

1:39

had holds on me. And I was trying to figure out how

1:41

to kind of move away from that. Um,

1:44

and it would take a year of therapy to figure out that

1:46

I was still in the, in the binds of a narcissistic

1:48

relationship. And it was traumatizing,

1:51

um, and even more so than I knew,

1:54

um, that I couldn't shake it off and I wouldn't

1:56

be able to shake it off for many months moving forward. And

1:58

so I had sought out for a while to

2:00

understand this narcissistic personality

2:02

for a couple of years because I had known

2:04

really since about 2015 or 2016

2:08

that that was what I was dealing with. And I wanted

2:10

to know how I could manage the situation,

2:13

but also I was noticing that there was a pattern

2:16

in my life, unfortunately. And that I seem to

2:18

be attracting them to me, just not

2:20

in personal relationships but also in business

2:22

partnerships. And I like so

2:25

many people just thought I had bad luck

2:27

or that I had a magnet strapped to my forehead

2:29

and then if I could just figure out where it was and how to

2:31

move it, um, I could just avoid them.

2:34

I never knew or believed up

2:36

until this book right here,

2:39

um, that on

2:41

December a year and a

2:44

half ago, that it was actually that I was attracted

2:46

to them and perhaps just as strongly

2:49

as they were attracted to me. And

2:51

up until that day, while I walked around like everybody

2:53

else with our bag of bad childhood experiences

2:56

and memories, my mantra was the past

2:58

is the past and it has nothing to do with what

3:00

you do today. And I realized

3:02

in a flash when I read the words

3:04

childlike and powerless and a paragraph

3:07

on page 63 of this book that

3:09

I was wrong, and those memories were

3:11

actually everything. I

3:13

put the book down, you immediately having

3:16

what I can describe as a bright in

3:18

my brain. And the most painful memory

3:20

of my life immediately played

3:22

out and I got up and I paced

3:25

around the house for several minutes crying because

3:27

I felt this emotional release that was

3:29

just indescribable. And in

3:31

the course of the last year, as many of the listeners

3:34

out there know, you've heard me describe setting

3:36

dip switches in my brain is I've been going through

3:38

therapy and healing and talking with some amazing

3:40

people in the last year and that the healing

3:43

has been happening and that this was in fact

3:45

on December 17th the first dip switch

3:47

to get switched off in my head. And

3:50

so from there, from this book, I

3:52

traveled through the world of childhood trauma,

3:54

emotional neglect, and I started therapy

3:56

less than a month after and I went every

3:58

week for three months and I adjusted

4:00

the sales on my boat immediately with my children.

4:03

When I realized that if I didn't recover

4:05

and heal myself, I would be

4:08

planting similar experiences and

4:10

memories and to their brains. I

4:12

couldn't change my past, but I could

4:14

change their future. And so today

4:17

to say it's an honor, it's an understatement

4:19

to have with me. You, Wendy

4:22

Behary, the author of the book that literally changed

4:24

my life, Disarming The Narcissist. So

4:27

Wendy, welcome to One Broken Mom?

4:29

Wow, Amee. Thank you so much

4:31

for having me. I'm, I'm

4:33

touched and inspired

4:35

and um,

4:38

at the little bit overwhelmed from where you just

4:40

started, but it's so incredibly

4:42

meaningful to me because it really

4:45

captures the motivation

4:47

for writing the book initially

4:50

the first edition and then the second edition,

4:52

it was written for women

4:54

and men like yourself.

4:57

Well, I would say, you know, I don't want to sound

4:59

all melodramatic about all of this, but, um,

5:01

you know, the book is about strategies, which is why

5:04

I got it to shift power away from

5:06

narcissists in a relationship. But for me,

5:08

the experience that I got out of it was that,

5:11

um, I was the one that ended up being

5:13

disarmed, you know, that I went from my

5:15

mind shift shifted from being in this defensive

5:17

position to that

5:19

day, asking myself, why are you even on the battlefield

5:22

to begin with? And so was

5:24

that an intent that you had when you put this book

5:26

together?

5:28

It's, yeah. Yeah. I

5:30

mean, it has to be in,

5:33

based on my experience over so many

5:35

years of working both with the narcissist

5:38

themselves in the treatment room, but

5:40

even more so to a large degree with

5:43

those who have been offended by the

5:45

narcissist in their lives. The,

5:49

the order of healing really

5:51

comes from making sense

5:53

out of not just the person you're dealing

5:55

with. We have to make sense out of what we're up

5:57

against, meaning the narcissist. But

6:00

we also have to make sense out of our own lives

6:02

so that we can sturdy ourselves

6:05

to be able to take on those strategies that

6:07

are in my book for disarming the

6:09

narcissist, for being able to hold them

6:11

accountable, set limits or leave if

6:13

need be. But the status quo is no

6:16

acceptable for being abused, for

6:18

being forgotten, for being erased and

6:20

dismissed. But in order to do

6:22

that, we have to develop a very

6:25

sturdy and clear

6:27

understanding of who they are and who we

6:29

are in that relationship.

6:32

Yeah. And I think that was, you know, like I

6:34

said, two years of reading about narcissism

6:36

and developing an empathetic

6:38

view of it. And that was one of the big things is that I thought

6:40

that if I cared enough about my narcissistic

6:43

partner that I could shift beliefs.

6:45

And so that was why, you know, I ended up on this, this

6:48

travel pattern to a book like, okay, well

6:50

this didn't work and how do I get there? And,

6:52

um, but it was the, the real life,

6:54

the realization of, you know, you're not

6:57

just unfortunately unlucky that

6:59

they just happened to stumble across your path.

7:01

It was sitting back and looking

7:03

for the first time that, you know, you're actually,

7:06

you're, your missiles are guided towards them,

7:08

you know, and I know that that was,

7:10

that was the most stunning piece of it. And then for

7:12

me to go back and go, what was it about myself

7:15

that, that put me on the path forward with

7:17

all of them. Um, I want

7:19

to start the conversation though. Let's, let's

7:21

talk about the narcissistic personality

7:24

and the, and the narcissistic personality disorder.

7:26

Because there is a

7:28

lot of pop psychology out there. Um,

7:31

and I'm sure as you know, there's a lot of, uh,

7:33

it's a label that gets applied a

7:35

lot. And I know that to me

7:37

what I've read is that it's either, it's

7:40

either everywhere, you know, every ex boyfriend

7:42

we've ever had has been a narcissist or it's

7:44

not as common as it seems. And so

7:46

can you help kind of lay the groundwork on, on

7:48

this personality type?

7:50

Yeah, it's a great question and it is an important

7:52

question because we're seeing the term narcissist

7:55

now more than ever and it is being

7:57

used somewhat generically to

7:59

describe anyone who behaves

8:01

in a way that might be somewhat self centered.

8:04

Um, and, and while many

8:06

people can have narcissistic traits

8:09

where they do go through, um,

8:12

perhaps moments, phases

8:14

and time or even steadily, they show

8:17

signs of, you know, being self absorbed

8:19

or acting entitled, that doesn't

8:21

necessarily meet the criteria for

8:23

full blown narcissistic personality disorder.

8:25

So we think about narcissism

8:28

happening along a spectrum and

8:30

that there are, in my

8:32

book, I list 13 traits. There are many

8:34

traits that go into

8:37

that diagnosis, if you

8:39

will, or at least, you know, building your impressions

8:41

and realizing that you're in a relationship

8:43

with a narcissist. And that would

8:45

include things that are more than just

8:48

being a little selfish or a little too charming

8:50

or a little bit of a show off. Those

8:53

all inclusive, but also

8:56

they're demanding and they do have this

8:58

sense of I can have what I want when

9:00

I want it, how I want it, where

9:02

I want it. So they can be, you

9:04

know, extremely demanding and

9:07

controlling, condescending and

9:10

degrading to the people that they're with. A,

9:12

they have this sense of needing

9:14

to be incredibly extraordinary and being

9:16

approved of and adored for it.

9:19

Um, the have

9:21

this impulse

9:24

to, to kind of be in this one upmanship

9:27

position most of the time at the severe

9:29

end of the spectrum, you'll see those that can

9:31

be aggressive and even violent

9:33

and abusive or as it, the more

9:35

benign into the spectrum. They may just be annoying.

9:38

Um, but still all in all

9:40

the question you're asking yourself is, when

9:42

I'm in the presence of this person, do

9:44

I feel present too? I feel seen.

9:47

Do I feel understood?

9:50

Are they asking questions and actually listening

9:52

to my answers due to I become

9:54

erased and, and, and we can

9:57

didn't small. When I'm in the presence of

9:59

this person, those are the questions

10:01

we ask. And that becomes, you know, a little

10:03

bit of a guide way to understanding

10:06

what type of personality I might be dealing

10:08

with.

10:09

Yeah. Now, one of the things that,

10:11

you know, that's kind of troubling,

10:13

let's say when you're a person that's been around

10:16

somebody that is narcissistic,

10:18

is you can't the

10:21

only person that can label them as really you.

10:24

Um, meaning that I, you know, I can go in

10:26

and, and willingly go into therapy and

10:28

sit down with the therapist and we can talk

10:30

about my afflictions are my,

10:32

you know, the things that I'm working on and stuff. And they can,

10:35

they can help me identify that. But when you're with a narcissist,

10:39

it's your word against theirs. You know, meaning

10:42

that they're not willingly going in. There

10:44

isn't like some sort of a, you know, a checklist

10:46

that says yes, you're definitely a narcissist, that they

10:48

become aware and they make any changes.

10:51

And I guess what I mean is, is that it's, it's hard

10:53

when you're in that situation to sit there and say,

10:55

well, I think you're being narcissistic because naturally

10:57

the narcissist comes back and says you're wrong. There's

10:59

nothing, you know, and, and you don't have, like, there

11:01

isn't this checklist that we all have to go, well, but

11:03

you just met these boxes or you know, is

11:06

there, so I guess what, let me get back to my question. My question

11:08

is, is how do we help somebody identify

11:10

if they truly have the, the presence

11:12

of this narcissistic person in them so

11:15

that they can take the next step towards

11:17

really receipt thinking about what their strategy

11:19

is to get beyond it. Because a narcissist just

11:21

really good at manipulating your sense of reality

11:24

and your perception of them and

11:27

to make you think and second guess it. And unless

11:29

there's a third person out there saying, nope, that person's

11:31

definitely a narcissist. You're, you're,

11:33

you struggle. Does that make sense?

11:36

Yeah it does. And the truth is, as I said, the

11:38

reason why it's helpful to think about it happening

11:40

along the spectrum is it doesn't

11:42

have to be so absolute. You know, when you're

11:44

in a relationship with someone who makes

11:47

you feel erased, who

11:50

kind of sets out the bait and then switches,

11:53

you know, asks you a question or an opinion.

11:55

And when you share it, they demean it. Or

11:58

they look at you like you're crazy. Or why would you

12:00

say that? Or why would you want to go to that restaurant?

12:02

What's wrong with you? So it

12:04

feels like you're constantly being set up or

12:06

as you said to me, that it can be

12:08

also this altering of reality, this

12:11

gas lighting that not atypical

12:13

was narcissist. So, you know, I sometimes

12:15

say to my clients, you can diagnose it

12:18

a little bit from the gut. You know, you don't need a pure

12:20

scientific, you know, diagnostic,

12:22

statistical, manual diagnosis in order

12:25

to feel free, are permitted

12:27

to be able to explore the possibility

12:30

that you're dealing with someone who's narcissistic

12:33

and a therapist who understands

12:35

these traits and signs

12:38

can at least say, you know, based on your

12:40

experience, you know, I have,

12:42

my impression is that this is what you

12:44

might be up against. And therefore

12:47

in order to either heal this

12:49

relationship or emancipate yourself

12:51

from this relationship, you're going to need

12:54

to assess whether you have any leverage. Now

12:56

leaving you can leave, right? You can walk

12:58

out of a relationship not so easy

13:00

all the time when you love someone or you're sharing

13:03

children with them. But you

13:05

know, if, if it's just a matter, if

13:07

it's a matter of feeling guilt

13:09

or self doubt or what if it is me or what

13:12

if he is right and I'm using the heat

13:14

cause I work mostly with narcissistic men

13:16

and I know there's plenty of divas out there that

13:18

you know, can give them a run for their money. But

13:21

I'm going to stick with that Pronoun for now since

13:23

it's more commonly what we're, we're seeing

13:25

and talking about. Um,

13:28

but I'll ask women frequently,

13:30

do you have any leverage? Meaning is

13:32

there any consequence that's so meaningful,

13:35

like losing you, you know, losing

13:37

contact with you, losing the whole relationship,

13:39

losing something that is meaningful

13:41

enough to the narcissist that might persuade

13:43

them to get some help. And

13:46

if that's the case, I mean don't throw out

13:48

idle threats and

13:50

be ready to at least explore

13:52

even the possibility that the relationship

13:55

could be fading somewhere down the

13:57

path and see if that's enough

13:59

to at least hook them, get

14:02

them inspired to

14:04

want to seek out some help because they won't

14:06

do it. As you said, they won't walk in voluntarily

14:09

looking for help saying hello, I'm a narcissist.

14:12

Um, so a lot

14:14

of it is a sensing of, I don't

14:16

feel like I have a voice anymore. I

14:19

don't feel like I get a say. I

14:21

don't feel like my ideas, opinions, wishes,

14:23

longings needs are being respected

14:26

or even heard in this relationship.

14:30

I feel I'm constantly being set

14:32

up to get it wrong, to have the wrong

14:34

answer. I feel like

14:36

it's his way or no way. I

14:38

mean these are the kinds of feelings and sensations

14:41

that are going to be drawn to

14:43

our realization when

14:45

we're thinking, you know, I might be dealing with someone

14:47

who's narcissistic. Yeah. And

14:50

I've said this when I've done some of the other interviews

14:52

with some of the other gas stats. Sometimes the topics

14:54

and the subject matter actually elicit a physical

14:56

response in me and my physical responses. This

14:59

tightening in my chest. So as you're

15:01

going through all this signs,

15:03

you know that, that you're dealing with my body.

15:06

I mean, and again, this is a part of realizing that

15:08

you know, just how the abuse can

15:10

actually be to you is that I'm

15:13

out of the relationship, but I can still

15:15

feel that sensation when you say those

15:17

things of like, yeah, no, that's exactly, and I kind

15:19

of feel like you're back in it. So I

15:21

guess for, you know, other people that are listening

15:23

in here, if, if what

15:25

Wendy just went through made you

15:28

feel, you know, some, some

15:30

sort of anxiety rise in you, I would tell

15:32

you from experience, it's probably a pretty good sign that she,

15:34

you know, you've, you've hit on a few of those really key points.

15:38

I recently had an experience to,

15:41

uh, with somebody that, uh, early

15:44

on, not even like at an any, not

15:46

even a dating standpoint, having

15:48

gone through this experience have been able to pull

15:50

myself out and be an objective

15:52

witness too. You know, this realm

15:54

rather than this, and you know, this integrated participant,

15:57

an actor in the, in the world of the narcissistic

15:59

world, I started to see red flags

16:02

so much earlier that I just dismissed

16:04

before and overlooked and was able to,

16:07

uh, you know, really kind of a void,

16:09

you know, conflict and somebody that was saying

16:11

and doing things that would have certainly led

16:13

to another abusive relationship, you know,

16:15

the whole, like when you said, um,

16:18

uh, for example, you know, I was talking about an

16:20

achievement and achievement I was very proud of. And

16:22

the first thing out of this person's mouth was "I just don't think

16:24

it was really that great. And sometimes you come off sounding

16:26

stupid." And I'm like, and

16:29

I was like, and I just kind of like check out,

16:31

you know? And then it was like, okay, benefit

16:33

of the doubt. I'm gonna and you know, and you kind of go through there

16:35

and I kind of went through this checkbox and went, no,

16:38

this isn't, this isn't working. And I know from

16:40

the before, you know, this whole exercise,

16:42

it would have been, oh yeah. Okay. And would have just

16:45

kind of like, you know, been baited into

16:47

it because the whole intent was, was to be able

16:49

to devalue me in order to build

16:51

me back up so I could show how important they really

16:53

were at the end of it. And I just, um,

16:55

you know, I've, I guess I've lost all taste for that

16:57

kind of relationship now after having gone

16:59

through there and for you. Thanks.

17:02

I know, I was like, whoa. Um, but

17:04

it didn't get there by, without knowing

17:06

what you talk about in this book and something that you're really

17:09

active in your world of

17:11

therapy and work, which is Schema and

17:13

Schema therapy and scripts. And so

17:16

this was a part of where I started

17:18

to look, not applying how this works with

17:20

a narcissist around me, but I started to apply this to

17:22

myself. So can you talk about,

17:25

um, the work that you work with Jeffrey

17:27

Young, is that correct? Yes. And, and

17:29

Schema therapy because this is what you've

17:31

found to be very effective in dealing with

17:34

this world of the narcissistic personality

17:36

and stuff. So please explain what that is.

17:39

Yeah. Schema therapy was founded

17:42

by Dr. Jeffrey Young and I've worked

17:44

with him since the late eighties and

17:47

we began looking at how this

17:49

model, um, could go

17:51

beyond dealing with, um,

17:54

you know, more, more acute

17:57

sim w what we call symptom disorders

17:59

or emotional disorders into personality

18:02

disorders, which is what, you know, he was

18:04

originally plotting when he came

18:06

up with a Schema therapy comes

18:08

out of cognitive behavioral therapy originally,

18:10

but it's a very highly integrated model

18:12

and now a highly researched model. So we

18:14

have some beautiful evidence to support

18:17

the effectiveness. He and I started

18:19

working together on the approach

18:21

for dealing with narcissists

18:24

in the treatment room as

18:26

well as those who are offended

18:28

by narcissism in their lives.

18:31

And schemas are basically,

18:33

I mean, this is something we could talk about

18:36

all day, but I'll see if I could just widdle

18:38

it down to the simplest definition, which

18:41

is schemas are basically

18:43

emotional beliefs, you know, so it

18:45

goes beyond those who are familiar with cognitive

18:47

therapy. It goes beyond just

18:50

beliefs that we have in our mind. It's

18:53

experiences that we have had when

18:55

we were very young. Typically experiences

18:58

that led to certain needs not being

19:00

net or experiences that may have been

19:03

even more traumatic than that and

19:05

abusive where needs

19:07

are not being met for more toxic reasons.

19:10

We all have schemas. Nobody has a perfect

19:12

beginning either because of our biology and the way

19:14

that were put together or the environment that

19:16

we've grown up in, in spite

19:19

of the best intentions of caregivers around

19:21

us, teachers, siblings, parents, extended

19:23

family schemas are these

19:25

truths that get laid down in

19:28

our brain and flow through

19:30

our body with sensation when

19:32

they get activated. So for example, if

19:34

you're growing up in a home where you're made to feel

19:37

that you're just not measuring up, you're just

19:39

not good enough, you're never going to make

19:41

it. Um, you could develop a Schema

19:44

that we would call defectiveness where you feel

19:46

unlovable and it can get triggered.

19:48

I mean, even the healthiest of people

19:50

may carry it within their core carry.

19:52

It was in that reference library and their

19:54

brain and get activated

19:57

only under certain conditions that kind

19:59

of sound like smell, like feel like

20:01

look like the way it did once

20:03

upon a time. And we don't even know it until

20:06

we examine it. We're just reacting

20:08

to it. So someone you know,

20:10

shows up late or doesn't invite

20:12

us to lunch. And, and there

20:14

we are suddenly in tremendous

20:17

pain and writing ourselves

20:19

about it. You know, these idiots

20:21

that don't care about me and how dare they and

20:24

or we're trying to please them or we're going

20:26

out of our way to overcome the date, those

20:29

that we feel rejected by because there's

20:31

deep belief that it's my

20:33

fault, my problem, I'm not lovable

20:35

enough. And there's 18 different

20:37

early maladaptive schemas that

20:39

work in combination coordination

20:42

with one another. So the example

20:44

I just gave would be an example of someone who may

20:46

carry a Schema, very popular, one

20:49

of feeling unlovable, feeling

20:51

defective, feeling flawed, feeling broken

20:53

at the core, even though they may look

20:56

outstanding and they're doing well, but

20:59

under certain conditions when it gets triggered,

21:01

they shift into their self sacrificing

21:04

mode or they sh they pick up the another

21:07

scheme and that says, well, you know, it is your fault

21:09

so you're just going to have to do

21:11

all you can do and try not to be

21:14

so needy, you know? So

21:16

there's this scripts that get played

21:18

out in the form of a whole choreography

21:20

of sound and movement within

21:22

us. And it's just really how memory works.

21:25

This is the brain, you know, this is memory. You have

21:27

an experience, it gets loaded into

21:29

memory and under certain familiar

21:32

conditions it gets triggered again and

21:35

no one triggers us more powerfully

21:38

than a narcissist.

21:40

I know from shortly

21:42

after I had, you know, had gone through the book and

21:44

stuff, I sat down and I read through journals

21:47

and the miracle of

21:49

having all the journals that I had taken

21:51

since like it was 11 to about 15 years old

21:54

daily. I wrote daily in my journals and

21:56

being able to reread this a

21:58

really important piece of my life and

22:00

be able to put the pictures together and taking the information

22:03

from the book and under this understanding of Schemas

22:06

and what, and and trying to look for

22:08

what my Schema was because I had never examined

22:10

what I thought I was. I thought I was the person

22:12

that you see here today. I'm confident, I'm

22:14

intelligent, you know, I've got all these positive

22:17

traits and stuff and it

22:19

never occurred to me that there was this underlying

22:21

real story, real truth to me

22:23

that was actually that subconscious driving.

22:26

And when I read through the journals,

22:29

I started to see a just a disturbing

22:31

and heartbreaking scene for this. You know, this

22:33

young girl that was clearly,

22:37

I didn't feel like anybody

22:39

paid attention to me. They did,

22:42

but not at that deeply connecting

22:44

and knowing who I was level. It

22:46

was very superficial. It was,

22:48

um, uh, and it, it,

22:50

and I could see that I actually

22:53

was starving for that and very confused. Even

22:55

I even asked to be in therapy when I was in

22:57

like 13 because I was feeling so,

23:00

you know, kind of not understanding my life

23:02

and my world around me. But what I started to do

23:04

at the bottom of most of my journal entries was one

23:06

day I'll show them one day

23:08

I'll show them one day I'm going to be big,

23:11

one day I'm going to be powerful. One day I'm going to

23:13

be, and this language was

23:15

there decades

23:17

ago. And so then when I read that, I was like,

23:19

well then now I know why

23:21

that narcissistic person was attractive to

23:24

me was because of the love bombing and

23:26

the over the top attention that they throw at

23:28

you because you are a trophy

23:31

for them. And you believe that

23:33

those people, because they want you so badly

23:35

to do something for them that they're willing to.

23:37

And those are the types that I've been into. The very,

23:39

the ones that are very complimentary, very early

23:42

on know how to play all those games, know how to push

23:44

all those buttons. And I believed

23:46

that that was affection and that that was the

23:48

attention and not that it was a,

23:51

um, that it was like bait on a line

23:53

to get me kind of roped into it. Uh,

23:55

and because that was the only type of attention that

23:57

seemed positive than it was like, of course, then I felt

23:59

like, well then I have to keep earning it, you know, and

24:02

then it was shifting those modes back,

24:04

um, of, well

24:07

now I'm in a familiar place again. I'm with

24:09

somebody that I have to work really

24:11

hard to get them to see me and they don't see me now and

24:13

now here I am being this little girl, but never seen that,

24:16

never seen that, that Schema or that script

24:18

in there. Now I bring this up, not

24:20

because the show's about me just talking about myself,

24:23

but um, I bring it up because

24:25

when I sat there and looked

24:28

at the fact that in that

24:31

way I was looking for that

24:33

personality. I felt like that

24:35

was an important thing for other people

24:37

to possibly take the self examination

24:39

right. That um, that we

24:41

don't choose to be around abusive people.

24:44

It's not a, it's not a conscious choice. Right. Right.

24:46

But there are underlying drivers

24:49

here that can draw us to there. When working

24:51

with people that have been persistent

24:54

and recurring narcissistic

24:56

relationships, what are some of the things

24:58

that you've seen or helped people maybe realize about

25:01

themselves that maybe it felt like me,

25:03

like I just seem to attract narcissist and what's

25:05

going on, you know, have you been able to help them

25:07

explore that possibility that they're

25:10

moving themselves in that direction? It

25:14

starts with the realization. I think, I'll go

25:16

back to something you said. I mean, which was

25:18

really powerful. It's that you

25:20

discovered there was another story happening

25:22

behind the story. So this isn't necessarily

25:24

a facade. This is a part of you that's healthy

25:27

and competent and confident, but

25:30

under certain conditions you are

25:33

like any other human susceptible

25:35

to being triggered by the other story

25:37

that happens in the back scene. And

25:40

unfortunately we can see that

25:42

once we're in it, it feels like

25:44

a truth. It feels like

25:46

it's real. What's real? Maybe

25:48

the experience that occurred

25:50

once upon a time. So in other words, one

25:53

can be made to feel

25:55

that they are not lovable or to

25:57

not get the empathy that's needed

25:59

to support the protection, the guidance,

26:02

the encouragement, praise, the

26:04

safety, all the things that a child needs

26:07

to feel connected, to develop, autonomy

26:09

to become competent, et Cetera, to learn

26:11

how to mingle in the world and and have

26:13

healthy interpersonal connections. Once

26:16

that becomes discovered in treatment,

26:18

and we do that by linking current stress

26:21

with what feels familiar about

26:23

that, look in the buddy, look

26:25

in the mind, look in the images that come

26:27

up that get conjured up. We try

26:29

to make sense out of it. So even though the experience

26:31

may have been real, it's not a truce.

26:34

And I can't tell you how many times I've said to a client,

26:36

yes, your father said you were a loser, but

26:38

that doesn't make it true. The problem is

26:41

you were little and you believed him.

26:43

That's not your fault. It's just what

26:45

we do. You know that if

26:47

someone is not loving us the way we need

26:49

to be loved, we start to build a whole

26:52

idea around that and, and it has

26:55

emotional power that can be intolerable

26:57

when you're little and you're not getting your needs met,

26:59

but it becomes this map or this

27:02

of just surviving and getting through

27:04

by holding onto this strong

27:06

idea that people aren't going to meet your

27:08

needs, you're going to have to work really hard for it.

27:11

Yeah, and I've heard that and I've heard that a lot from people.

27:13

That's unfortunately a common story. I'm sure that you've

27:15

heard too, which is, "I'm in this world

27:17

by myself. The only person I can trust is

27:20

my self and I have to do everything on my own." And I know

27:22

that that was a big piece of my mentality

27:24

And it's easy to feel very lonely

27:27

when you're in a relationship with a narcissist because

27:29

they are so self absorbed.

27:31

So loneliness becomes something that

27:33

gets first discovered in the treatment

27:35

room. I mean, if you're being abused, obviously

27:38

that will come up early on too. But

27:40

even if the narcissist is more covert

27:42

and not necessarily aggressive, you

27:44

can feel incredibly lonely in that

27:47

relationship. And the therapy is really

27:49

aimed at trying to meet

27:51

the unmet needs. If I'm working with a narcissist

27:53

or I'm working with the partner, it's

27:56

trying to meet those unmet needs.

27:58

It's trying to unlearn that quote

28:00

unquote truth about myself.

28:03

It's developing a voice that is

28:05

not just loud and angry, but

28:07

really speaks what's you're feeling

28:10

inside and it's

28:12

righteous in a healthy way. And

28:15

it says, this is not acceptable. It's

28:18

a voice that can actually say, nope,

28:21

that's not acceptable to me. That's

28:23

not going to work. Or You may not have meant

28:25

to be hurtful, but it hurts,

28:28

so we're not going to do this again. You

28:31

know? And it really acts as an advocate,

28:34

maybe one that was needed way

28:36

back when and never, they're not present

28:39

that you've now developed for yourself

28:41

in the here and now. So it's entering

28:43

the room basically like that.

28:46

Healthy, confident. Individually you may be in

28:48

the workplace or with your friends or someplace

28:50

else. It's walking into the room with

28:52

the narcissist and having the ability to bring

28:54

that healthy adult, not the four year

28:56

old or the five year olds or six year old.

28:59

You don't do it intentionally, but you

29:01

want to make sure that you have safeguarded

29:04

these parts of yourself that are more

29:06

childlike and fragile and struggling

29:09

because they live in memory. They live in the stories

29:11

within our old experience. You

29:13

want to bring the sturdy adults into the room

29:16

who isn't ready to drop the gauntlet, but just

29:18

able to speak honestly

29:21

about what she needs, what's

29:23

okay, what's not okay

29:27

in that relationship.

29:28

Yeah. Now, what

29:31

about a person that feels

29:34

that they're, you

29:37

know, maybe they had a single parent,

29:39

maybe it was just a hardship

29:42

in the household, but never felt like growing

29:44

up that they were actually abused or neglected

29:46

or that their own parents

29:48

would have met the criteria

29:50

of being narcissists themselves, but yet they still

29:52

find themselves in one of these

29:55

powerful and toxic relationships.

29:57

You know, what do you think might be happening with a person

29:59

like that?

30:01

You know, again, the therapy is not ever

30:03

at least Schema therapy and I think most therapies,

30:06

but this model is not aimed

30:08

at demonizing apparent, um,

30:11

unless the patient for whatever reason needs

30:13

to see the parent that way because it was

30:16

really harsh and horrible abuse. But

30:18

we're not aiming towards demonizing

30:21

a parent who may have just been working

30:23

really hard, was a single parent,

30:25

had a lot to carry and the child suffered

30:28

some of the collateral damage of that hardship,

30:31

which may have been that they were somewhat

30:33

neglected or that they learned

30:35

watching just watching a mother who

30:37

was so self sacrificing in

30:39

her own relationship with the

30:42

father or with her own father

30:44

or with some with the community. Um,

30:46

many an individual who grew up just believing

30:49

that my needs should not come first

30:52

because you watched a parent who was very

30:55

overly generous and forfeited

30:57

their needs. So it's a kind of legacy

31:00

experience that also needs

31:02

to become unlearned because we know

31:04

that a healthy relationship is

31:06

about reciprocity and it's about

31:08

give and take. It's about both people getting

31:10

their needs met, not perfectly, but

31:13

at least adequately.

31:16

Um, personal traps

31:19

is something that you talk about in the book and

31:21

I don't know if that's kind of tied in with what we're,

31:23

what we're conversing about right now, um,

31:26

in identifying what those

31:28

might be for somebody. Can you describe this, this

31:30

section? I think it's like chapter three actually in the

31:32

whole book, which is I think it's part

31:34

of you walking us through the, here

31:36

you are in a dynamic with a narcissistic

31:38

person. And so let's talk about what are some of

31:40

the things that maybe linking you

31:42

in and connecting you to that, to that

31:44

narcissist.

31:46

Again, the more you know about yourself,

31:48

if you're out there, you know, going

31:51

into a new relationship or you've come out

31:53

of a relationship with a narcissist can

31:55

be incredibly traumatizing

31:57

unto itself. And then the fear

32:00

of stepping back into the world. And what if

32:03

I miss the flags? What if I miss the signs?

32:06

So there again, there are these

32:08

signs and some of them have

32:10

to do with, you know, do you feel

32:12

there is an ability

32:14

to um, there, there is

32:16

a capacity for a give and take. There is

32:19

eye contact. There is,

32:22

um, not this overruling over

32:24

charming as you were describing

32:26

before. I mean this, you know, overly

32:29

complimentary of complements are nice

32:31

and affections nice and charm is fine,

32:34

but you can feel it. It's almost over

32:37

done decision.

32:40

Well, different motivational driver, you know, the,

32:42

it's not so much about you as it is about

32:44

them coming off good and

32:47

looking good and getting that approval

32:49

and getting their way and may perhaps winning

32:51

you over. Um, particularly

32:53

if they do see you as a potential trophy

32:56

in their life or they do see you as someone who's

32:58

maybe also just, you know, willing

33:01

to submit to their demands and their controls

33:03

so that they can always have the upper hand in the relationship.

33:06

So you want to watch for, you

33:08

also want to watch yourself, you know,

33:10

very closely to say, am

33:14

I saying yes when I know that under other

33:16

conditions I would have said no? Hmm?

33:19

Am I saying no to this because he said no to this.

33:21

When I'm with my friends, I would have said yes.

33:24

Did I not share my real

33:26

opinion because I was fearful

33:28

of being judged or looking stupid

33:30

because he's so damn powerful

33:32

and smart, you know, was that, did I just

33:35

apologize for something that I

33:37

don't know. I didn't do anything wrong. Did I just apologize?

33:40

Did I just take responsibility for something

33:42

that I was not responsible for. So

33:44

these are traps and these

33:46

probably have answers in that

33:48

story, in that script, in the background.

33:51

Why? Why would I do that? This is not

33:53

about blaming oneself. This is about

33:56

appreciating that this

33:58

is how it works in our personal narrative.

34:01

And when you're with a narcissist, everything kind

34:03

of comes to the forefront, but we don't

34:05

even know it. And you have to

34:07

look upon reflection. And if you're lucky, you'll catch

34:09

it in the moment with practice. But

34:11

you look and you say, I don't who

34:14

it was that in that moment. And that's what I did

34:16

when I started working with them. People say, how could you work

34:18

with narcissists? So because I was so

34:20

intrigued by myself and

34:23

how I was just shifting into this like

34:25

little knee of once upon a time, giving

34:28

in to demands, taking responsibility

34:30

where it wasn't mine, apologizing, ignoring

34:33

things that should have been held accountable. And

34:36

I thought, who is that? Well

34:39

that's little me. You know, and she's not

34:41

bad, but you know, she's struggling

34:43

to survive in her

34:46

world. In her once upon a time.

34:49

Well, those are, and that's a, those are good questions

34:52

because what was coming to my mind was, is that you don't really

34:54

necessarily to start off, need to know

34:56

what your script is or your Schema that's in your

34:58

brain, but you will have that gut feel,

35:00

right? When you are asking yourself

35:02

those questions, you'll

35:04

go, yeah, okay, so I don't know why it's

35:06

there, but the fact that there's this, there is

35:09

a difference between how I feel like

35:11

I want to answer and what I think I need

35:13

to answer. And that's where the story begins,

35:15

right? That's where you start to unravel that. That's

35:18

powerful. And that's a, that's a good thing I think for people

35:20

to maybe click in on if they don't because

35:23

it takes time to figure out your story. It takes devotion

35:26

to doing it. It takes hard work to do

35:28

it. It's not easy to just, you know, the story doesn't

35:30

just print out on your printer and there

35:32

you go and you run with it. You have to really,

35:34

you know, be dedicated to it too

35:37

to want it. And some people don't want

35:39

to go that deeply, but people

35:41

do need, I think at least that first step to

35:43

be able to get out of a situation or recognize

35:45

that they're in the presence of a situation that

35:47

might be unhealthy and unsustainable.

35:50

Yeah.

35:51

And recognize that we all carry

35:54

within us, you know, the experiences

35:57

of earlier in our lives, whether it was last

35:59

week, last year, or 30 years

36:01

ago or 50 years ago. These

36:04

are experiences that are alive

36:06

inside of us. They're part of our neural network

36:09

literally in our brain. And

36:11

it's the same as you know, hearing

36:13

an old song on the radio that

36:15

you haven't heard in 20 years

36:18

and you can feel your whole body changing

36:20

and you can smell things suddenly

36:22

from that spring when you first heard the song

36:24

and you're feeling touched in your heart because

36:27

it was your first love. You know, we have

36:29

the capacity to experience without

36:31

even recognizing what the stimulus

36:34

might be. But with narcissism,

36:36

you know, if you know that you're susceptible

36:39

at least because you've been through it before,

36:42

you'll have some ways of knowing

36:45

you. Knowing that there is a part of you,

36:47

just a part of all of you but a

36:49

part of you in there that will be susceptible

36:51

to changing your tune, changing

36:53

your color when you were in their presence. And

36:56

that's what we want to be on the lookout for.

36:58

Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, for me

37:01

it's hearing certain words, feeling

37:03

the, the tightness in the chest and

37:05

with the last kind of experience that I had,

37:07

which was just a, you know, in the

37:09

last few months, um, I, I caught myself,

37:12

like you said, asking myself questions

37:14

and then it's taking the first step,

37:16

which was the old step, which is why I'm not gonna say anything

37:19

or I'm going to keep it to myself. And then

37:21

as it, as I was recognizing like, okay, no,

37:23

you're seeing red flags again, like your, what

37:25

your body is detecting and what your mind is putting

37:27

together as at this, this is a, another version

37:30

of the same thing. This person's, you know, in

37:32

there, did I attract it? No. I

37:34

had to ask myself like, did I reach

37:36

out and draw back into me? I

37:38

might have. And why and what was it about

37:41

this or what am I going to do about it? But at the same

37:43

time, because I have my Hashtag is therapy

37:45

works, um, you know, I was able to

37:47

again, start to pull back and kind of put

37:49

a barrier in there, like a buffer zone

37:51

for myself going, okay, you need to now be a witness

37:53

to what's going on. Don't get let yourself kind of get, you

37:56

know, emotionally drawn in. And one of the other

37:58

emotional pieces was this

38:00

tendency to, once I recognized and identified

38:02

them as the enemy, wanting to fight the enemy, like

38:04

this whole sense of justice. And I've had this conversation

38:07

with other people that work in the realm of narcissism.

38:09

Like I'm the sense of justice person.

38:11

My life has been like, if I see it, I need to

38:13

fight against it. And I had to stop that because

38:15

I also recognize that narcissist love to fight.

38:18

So I'm depending on the, or the one you

38:20

get themselves into. That's what they really want

38:22

is they want to bait that engagement. And in this whatever

38:25

engagement they're getting, good or bad or indifferent,

38:28

as long as it's energy that

38:30

it doesn't matter. And it was like, well, I don't just

38:34

on that point because it's such an important point

38:36

that you're raising, keep in mind,

38:39

because again, the more you know, the more you understand

38:41

about narcissism, how they're put together,

38:43

why they do what they do, which is the big question

38:45

that gets asked all the time. But why did they do what they

38:47

do? Um, they

38:50

love the challenge because

38:52

their whole worth and value is defined

38:55

by winning, by being right,

38:57

by getting it right. So they're good, they're clever.

39:00

And they'll usually find ways that even

39:02

if it's just to like wear you down,

39:05

they will do it so that they can come out on

39:07

top and whether

39:09

it's threatening you in the end, so you'll give up

39:12

your fight or it's just coming

39:14

up with some clever quip or even

39:16

whether it's true or not, they will

39:18

do it because competition challenges

39:21

Winnie, it's stimulating for them, incredibly

39:24

stimulating for them. And they need that because

39:27

they aren't very good at connecting at an

39:29

intimate level. And so we have to

39:31

be careful again, not to get into that

39:33

tangle of just getting angry and fighting

39:35

and debating and arguing.

39:38

Um, because it's exhausting. It's

39:40

tedious. It's such a burden to carry

39:42

as opposed to just telling your truth and

39:45

walking away if you have to and

39:47

not getting caught in it. And many women

39:49

as you, you brought up this other point

39:52

just now me about, you know,

39:55

is it me, you know, kind of asking yourself

39:57

the question, am I attracting them? It's

40:00

like when women ask me, did I cause

40:02

the betrayal? Did I cause the cheating

40:05

to happen because I was so turned

40:08

off and just not so available?

40:10

I mean, I've been depressed in this relationship

40:13

and I'll say, well, no,

40:16

because there were other options. You

40:19

know, narcissist will feel quick to feel entitled,

40:21

to betray, to have what they want when they

40:23

want it. They seek out stimulation. It's not

40:25

uncommon for, not all of them, but

40:27

certainly many of them to be in that pool

40:29

of the hypersexual types.

40:32

And they will create the trail

40:34

of trauma leaving you feeling terribly

40:36

unprotected. But so

40:38

many partners will ask themselves the question

40:41

that they've been told by

40:43

their narcissistic partner, it's

40:45

your fault. You know, you led

40:47

me to it and my answer when I have the chance

40:49

to be in the company of the narcissist in

40:52

the treatment room is it had no other

40:54

choice. There was no other option. There's

40:56

nothing else you could do with the discontent. This

40:58

was the only the only pill you could take.

41:02

You must be fine in the therapy room and

41:07

learn how to work with them.

41:10

Well, I'll go back to, um,

41:12

I'll go back also to the, uh,

41:14

I agree with all of that, like, and I, and that

41:16

was the, the bs that I called out. Like, no,

41:19

there were other choices to be made here. And I know that

41:21

I, you know, I wasn't, I, it gets

41:23

hard to be told. You are the reason

41:25

and the blame just as

41:27

in it's emotionally wearing. Even if you

41:29

know you're not, it's still emotionally

41:32

wearing to have that message delivered to you

41:34

and knowing that you can't change their mind. Right?

41:36

So, um, when I, what

41:39

I did and what I had to do in this last

41:41

go around was I had to reflect

41:43

back to, okay, you found

41:45

yourself in the cross hairs. You know, I didn't

41:47

and I didn't just accidentally walk in

41:49

front of them. And so this is what I want to clarify,

41:52

but I did, I

41:54

did sit there and go, why did

41:56

you point yourself in that direction?

41:59

What was the pieces of this person?

42:02

And you need to ask yourself the wise about

42:04

that choice because then it, because then that was

42:06

that self reflection for me of like, okay, you

42:09

still seem to think this

42:11

is important or this is important or this is important.

42:13

And guess what, every time you've made those three

42:16

choices, let's just make them three. You thought these

42:18

three things were important. It's equaled

42:20

this person that you already now know

42:23

is an abusive narcissistic. You know,

42:25

this is a toxic relationship. So let's talk about

42:27

amine internally. What are those three things and

42:30

are they really important or are they the pieces

42:32

of you, the little 13 year old riding in the bottom

42:34

of her diary that she's going to show the world and

42:36

you think this, that this individual is a vehicle

42:38

for you to be able to show? Cause I recognize

42:41

too my experience too that I

42:43

behaved narcissistically yeah. I mean, uh,

42:46

I had a very ego driven, self

42:49

centered attitude that I took out of necessity

42:51

of being able to, um, you know, I believe

42:54

feeling completely unseen and

42:56

so seeking out not only my own

42:58

experiences but people that could help

43:00

me achieve that ability to be seen.

43:03

And, and that was a hard one for me to hatch

43:05

to, to come to was to admit that at times I

43:07

behaved also narcissistically. And

43:09

I know that there's, um, you know, there's

43:11

language about like when anybody's in conflict,

43:14

we all tend to get very self centered because

43:16

its preservation, right? It's a, it's an active preservation.

43:19

And so that leads me into these, um, when

43:22

you have these maladaptive schemas in your head,

43:24

that being around narcissists

43:27

don't just hurt us and our relationship

43:29

with them, but because of the triggering

43:31

that they can do to us, it can set us up

43:33

to be in positions

43:35

where we're behaving because we're used to

43:37

having to deal with them

43:40

that we might be inflicting some

43:42

wounds to ourselves or the people around us that

43:44

have nothing to do with them being narcissist. And for example,

43:47

um, my, my mode of getting

43:49

into defense mode and defending myself against

43:51

everybody and not being able to sometimes tone

43:54

back and go, listen, you're not fighting right now. Like,

43:56

get out of fight mode right now. So what are some of

43:58

the other ways in which we can hurt

44:00

ourselves with others

44:02

because of the narcissistic abuse?

44:04

Are the dynamics that we've kind of been, you know,

44:07

somewhat.

44:08

Yeah. Again, that's it. It's a

44:10

very important question and it certainly

44:12

does tend to be something

44:14

that most people will struggle with. Whether

44:16

you're in the relationship currently, you've broken

44:19

free from the relationship that you're not

44:21

quite on solid ground yet with yourself.

44:24

You're at risk for being defensive,

44:26

as you said, for misreading.

44:28

You know, not always, but

44:31

in your most, um,

44:33

let's say meaningful relationships with other

44:35

people that it's

44:37

easy to misread the tea leaves. You can

44:39

start to see people as being rejecting

44:42

or you can perhaps

44:44

go too quickly into the overgiving

44:47

mode. You know, again, where we call that self sacrifice

44:50

or subjugation, you give up your rights

44:52

to recently you find yourself even with people

44:54

who are not narcissistic, but just

44:57

constantly giving and then feeling resentful

44:59

because there's nothing leftover for you.

45:02

And that becomes a pattern that is

45:04

recognizable, which can come out

45:06

of being in relationship with narcissists which

45:08

may be anchored to early experiences

45:11

that were similar even if not exactly

45:14

the same. So we're at risk

45:16

for trying to prove ourselves too much, for

45:18

giving up too much for denying ourselves

45:21

our rights, for defending our positions

45:23

to even avoidance, just pure

45:25

total avoidance, which leaves many

45:27

a person alienated and isolated

45:30

because they're fearful of being taken

45:32

advantage of being manipulated, being

45:35

used by someone else.

45:37

Yeah, I know for me,

45:39

just, you know, sharing this is when I was in

45:41

the midst of kind of like the, the downward

45:43

spiral of the relationship. I was also

45:45

working, um, in a, in a company

45:47

and I was actually, um, I was the general

45:49

manager and the strain

45:52

of the personal relationship at home

45:54

had gotten me where I was like on a constant

45:57

state of cortisol

46:00

fight mode, you know, from that,

46:02

that it did affect me at work. And

46:05

I actually, um, after the fact,

46:07

after kind of like, you know, separating from the relationship

46:09

and spending some time reflecting on it, you know, I actually

46:12

reached back out to the owner of the company because we had

46:14

had a couple of, they're not altercations,

46:16

but we'd had some missed opportunities

46:18

of seeing eye to eye where I know I took

46:21

that very strong bull

46:24

headed, you know, position on myself because I just

46:27

was butting my head up into every wall around

46:29

me. And so it carried with me into the word and

46:31

it affected that, that relationship. And I went

46:33

back to that gentleman. He was a bull headed

46:36

guy, but he wasn't a narcissistic guy. He wasn't

46:38

my enemy. But I did have

46:40

the few moments that I'm not proud of that I,

46:42

you know, I just in the, in the kind

46:44

of the fury and I'm not, you know, blaming myself

46:46

for feeling shame for myself. But I had did a minute said,

46:49

man, it's not a good headspace. I made

46:51

some choices. I wish that I hadn't, I can't take him

46:53

back. And he was so gracious. You know, he and

46:55

I were able to reestablish like a positive contact

46:57

after that. Yeah. But, um, I believed

47:00

at some point that everybody was the enemy

47:02

around me because I was just so sick of it. And

47:04

the other thing that I found myself getting into, and I want

47:06

to share this with people because it's not one of my proudest

47:08

things, but again, it was just in

47:10

order to get people

47:12

to understand what I was dealing

47:14

with, I ended up

47:16

just talking to everybody about it and

47:19

um, and not, and, and

47:22

trying to, if I couldn't change his

47:24

mind in his direction, then

47:26

I started to worry about changing

47:29

everybody else around him. And it's that,

47:31

it's that unseemly, manipulative piece

47:33

that, um, again, I felt

47:35

like I was at an in a desperate place and I wasn't,

47:38

I wasn't happy that that was a choice that I made.

47:40

And I fully admit that it was just like, it was ugly

47:42

for me to do that. That, and I can only imagine

47:44

how people felt having to listen to me bitch

47:46

about this all the time. You know,

47:50

it goes back to that idea that you brought up about

47:52

self preservation. We look for ways

47:54

to preserve our identity, our

47:56

ego or our sense of

47:58

okayness and accessibility. It's all

48:00

about acceptance and being able to connect.

48:03

And I think it was a really

48:05

beautiful example and a courageous one of going

48:07

back and speaking with this man. You

48:09

know, there's many, there

48:11

are so many women I've worked with

48:14

over the years who have been partnered

48:16

with narcissists and met some for many,

48:18

many, many years. Who

48:21

will say, you know, I guess I'm the crazy

48:24

one. You know, when I ran a support group, there were

48:26

some women who were in the relationships for 30 years

48:28

in some of who were in relationships for two years.

48:31

And those that were in the longterm relationships

48:33

really felt, you know, what is wrong

48:35

with me? Um, because

48:38

we have to ask the question of what

48:40

allows this to endure. There's

48:43

two questions. How do I get attracted

48:45

to someone who's narcissistic, which we just talked

48:47

about, but also why do I

48:49

stay once I see it?

48:52

And if you can get the blame game

48:54

out of this and not see it

48:56

as this is about beating yourself up, but

48:58

really trying to understand what am I

49:00

fearing, what is it

49:03

that would have me either grief stricken

49:05

or traumatized or feeling

49:07

bad about myself or could be

49:09

failure? It could be. So in other words, scheme

49:11

is, can play a role in keeping us there

49:14

because the alternative is just

49:16

so untenable. But so can pragmatics.

49:19

Like women who said to

49:21

me, I can't leave.

49:24

I have children who, you

49:26

know, he would drive without seat

49:28

belts because he doesn't believe in them. He would drive

49:30

intoxicated because he believes he's above

49:32

the law. So many who

49:35

have stayed on longer in

49:37

these relationships, not so much

49:39

because they can't

49:41

find themselves. So because they're protecting

49:43

their children the best way they can. So

49:45

I guess the moral of the story

49:48

here is we can't jump to conclusions about

49:50

anyone. You know, there's, there are certain

49:52

patterns and themes that are predictable about

49:55

why we would be attracted to these

49:57

types of individuals. Why narcissists

49:59

have this kind of glow, this aura

50:01

about them that pulls us in and

50:04

anyone can fall prey to that. Anyone,

50:06

the most intelligent, sophisticated,

50:09

accomplished, successful women

50:12

will be drawn to the narcissist.

50:14

So it's not being stupid or

50:16

being undereducated. It has nothing

50:18

to do with that. It has

50:20

to do with stuff that lies deep

50:23

within us and the lure,

50:25

which is sometimes irresistible because they

50:27

can be incredible in the courtship

50:29

phase. So we just

50:31

have to constantly watch

50:34

for, if you feel like you're getting, as you described

50:36

so well, the somatic, you know the

50:38

body's sensations, the experienced,

50:40

the hairs are standing up on your neck, you're a little

50:43

twingy, you're not quite answering the questions

50:45

way you typically would.

50:47

You feel yourself not being authentic,

50:50

then it's time to step back and

50:52

examine that a little bit. Cause

50:54

some other part is driving the bus.

50:56

There's some other part of you that's driving the bus

50:58

here and it could be driving into

51:01

a train wreck, you know, or a bus

51:03

wreck in this case. And

51:06

so it's just, you know, really watching

51:09

the signs, eliminating the blame,

51:11

understanding as much as you can because

51:13

that's the path to liberation. The

51:16

more you understand about narcissism

51:18

alongside the, I think in the more you

51:20

understand about narcissism, the word you begin to understand

51:22

about yourself and the more you understand about yourself,

51:25

the sturdier you can be in the face of it.

51:27

When you're faced with challenging decisions

51:30

and you just, I mean that just beautifully

51:32

summarized exactly this,

51:34

the, the transformative effect that

51:36

you know, that happened was, and,

51:39

and I mean you just kind of like, that's my

51:41

last year of, you know, seeking to understand and

51:43

recognizing the relationships I was in, the quality

51:46

of it on my loan life, seeing

51:48

then understanding how did I

51:50

get into these places here, not again

51:52

from the whole woe is me, but from the,

51:54

the fact of, you know, how does the brain

51:56

come together? What was going on? What were those

51:58

experiences? Because a lot of people

52:00

do sit there and say, our memories

52:02

in our past have nothing to do with today. And

52:05

in some cases they can be neutral. To

52:07

what we do today, but as long as

52:09

they're still painful and wounding

52:11

and um, and, and again

52:14

have a, a negative or even positive

52:16

effect on your body, then they're still influencing

52:18

what we're doing today and understanding which one of those

52:20

are the sort of, the triggers is powerful. And

52:23

I, and I kind of joked with a friend of mine about

52:25

the, the recent experience of, I felt

52:28

like it was a universe lobbying the test back going,

52:30

okay. I mean you just spent some time here, like you've invested

52:32

in yourself, you've been doing some work on you, you've been

52:35

a flipping all the dip switches in the brain to the right

52:37

locations. Um, here it is.

52:39

Let's see, let's like the test, right? Here's your final.

52:42

And it was, and I passed and I was just

52:44

like, oh my gosh. Like, okay. Again,

52:47

you, because that was in my life,

52:49

you know, my, my recurrent theme, that self sabotage

52:53

was that dynamic. Was that personal dynamic

52:55

either professionally or personally? It was

52:57

always, you know, it was going back into,

53:00

on that bus that was going to drive off of the cliff.

53:02

It would just be like, well, I can either jump off the bus and find

53:04

a new bus, but I was going to keep jumping in that bus until

53:07

I did this. And it limited me not

53:09

only just in terms of my emotional quality, um,

53:11

my personal relationships with people.

53:14

It affected me. Obviously it was mom and

53:16

a mother to my children. But it was also the limiting

53:18

factor. Like I, you know, I related with my experience

53:20

with that job. It was what was going to hold me back professionally.

53:22

I was never going to be what I always

53:25

wanted to do. And B, because I was going to keep

53:27

cycling in self sabotaging. So, um,

53:30

and you, you lined out what was my next question is

53:32

what were some ways people could start

53:34

and you, you did that, you kind of got into it. So I'd

53:36

like for people to understand now, Wendy, how

53:38

do they find you and the book and

53:40

the other work that you do for people that are

53:43

recovering through this? And what resources do

53:45

you have for folks?

53:46

There's, there's several resources on my website

53:49

which is disarmingthenarcissist.com

53:52

they can find me through the website.

53:54

That's why my contact details are all there.

53:57

My, my phone number and my email

53:59

as well. And um,

54:02

and if they, if they do have a narcissist

54:04

in their life who might be open to reading

54:07

the book, My book tends

54:09

to be more digestible

54:12

then many as you have probably

54:14

found it because you've done your homework and

54:16

a lot of research, most of

54:18

the literature out there is get away.

54:20

They are Satan, they are demons,

54:23

they are devils. They can't be fixed.

54:25

And you know, look, in a lot of cases it's

54:27

true. You won't get a fix, you won't get

54:29

a cure. You might get, you

54:32

might be able to have some kind of influence

54:34

over certain patterns in the relationship, but to

54:36

really get that kind of transformative,

54:39

enduring, lasting change, your

54:42

narcissist has to come to therapy. And

54:45

whether or not you can commandeer

54:47

that or not, it depends on the leverage

54:50

you might have. But the book sometimes opens

54:52

that door a little bit because it's not, it's

54:55

not so harsh. It's more meant

54:57

to explore and understand the

54:59

makeup of both ourselves as

55:01

well as the narcissist themselves.

55:04

So that's the best way to find me for

55:06

some additional information.

55:08

Awesome. Well, I know the challenge

55:10

too is that the word narcissist

55:13

is a very, um, very polarizing

55:16

word and because I think

55:18

that blend of pop psychology and

55:20

also the, um, the

55:22

fact that the injury so many people have

55:24

had at the hands of people that are narcissistic

55:27

and it's hard to not. And so I, you

55:29

know, I know in my own personal experience, that's not

55:32

a label you can apply to somebody and

55:34

not expect, especially if they are or,

55:36

or anybody, I mean, call anybody a narcissist.

55:39

And that's probably one of the most insulting characteristics

55:41

that you can do. So this is a challenging, challenging,

55:45

yes. You know, scratching my head dynamic to

55:47

deal with the book too,

55:49

while we talked about this a lot is personal relationships.

55:51

I will say that some of us, regardless of how

55:53

well and how healthy our personal relationships are,

55:56

depending on what you do in life and in business,

55:58

you're probably gonna run into them in business. And so this

56:00

is a valuable guide for that because

56:03

they may, you know, it is possible that narcissist

56:05

will be unavoidable and then, and

56:07

in the business world, that's likely going to be the case. And

56:09

so that's a, it's, it's fantastic for

56:11

that.

56:12

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. And

56:14

I, and I just want to say that

56:17

I'm, I really appreciate

56:19

your courage to be so open as I'm sure

56:21

your listeners too, because I know a lot of people

56:24

who host these types of podcasts

56:26

don't share so much of

56:29

their own experience and I think that's

56:31

really impactful and

56:33

helpful. So I feel

56:36

very privileged as I'm sure they do, to be

56:38

able to know you and to know what

56:40

you've been through and to know how

56:42

you got yourself to the other side. So,

56:44

so thanks for sharing that.

56:46

Thank you, Wendy. I appreciate you saying that. Um,

56:48

again, I just, um, I can't say this

56:50

enough. This was, this is, uh, it's

56:52

an honor to be able to meet you and

56:54

look you in the eye and tell you thank you for

56:57

what you did in the book that you wrote. Um, like

56:59

I said, I, I've read lots of books, I've talked with lots

57:01

of people, but the, to

57:03

me, the first step was the most important step that I

57:05

took and it came because of you. And so thank you very

57:07

much for that. Thank

57:10

you for listening to One Broken Mom. You can

57:12

find podcast notes on my website, ameequiriconi.com

57:16

and there I'll provide all links to all

57:18

of the resources that we mentioned on the episode. Also,

57:20

if you have any questions, comments, or ideas

57:23

for other episodes, feel free to send me

57:25

an email. And if you are interested in sponsoring

57:27

the show, I'd love to have you be a part of the team. Finally,

57:30

if you like what you hear, please share

57:32

the podcast and leave a review so that others

57:34

can find it. We're all here to get better together.

57:36

I am the host Amee Quiriconi. And as always,

57:39

I am super grateful to have you as a listener and

57:41

till next time, have a great day.