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[inaudible]

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[inaudible] you are listening

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to one broken mom , a podcast

0:33

dedicated to raising awareness about mental health,

0:35

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0:39

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0:42

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So if you're ready to hear real talk by

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real people so that we can all get better together,

1:01

then you're in the right place and welcome. All

1:05

right everyone. Welcome back to one broken mom. I

1:08

have to tell you, I am very, very excited

1:10

about today's episode. I

1:12

brought back to me a Wendy Buhari

1:14

and as many of you I know, many, many,

1:16

many of you know , um, we wrapped up season

1:19

one together talking about her book called

1:21

disarming the narcissist and also how

1:23

to start to break the cycle of being in

1:26

narcissistic relationships, whether they're in family dynamics,

1:28

in work relationships or in personal relationships.

1:31

And I know it resonated with a lot of you because

1:33

after that episode was published , um , I

1:35

received many emails from listeners

1:38

out there and men and women alike. So

1:40

I'm , I want to make sure that I clarify that. And

1:42

there is a general, Gosh,

1:45

a frustration I think is a really great word

1:47

and I know I felt this myself with

1:50

even though you kind of start to put some pieces

1:52

together of how you want to be able to get yourself out of

1:54

these bad patterns, I'm

1:56

still finding yourself kind of perpetually

1:59

being drawn back into some

2:01

of these relationships. And when it comes to romantic relationships,

2:04

I know for me, you know, there

2:06

is, there is this innate

2:08

part of us as human beings to have somebody,

2:10

you know, for as a person, you know , um,

2:13

a romantic connection with somebody. And

2:15

so, you know, being able to heal

2:17

that part of our life and to find ourselves

2:19

around a person that actually can

2:22

help us reduce our own stress and add

2:24

value to our life and beauty to our life certainly

2:26

makes it so much easier when you're having to

2:28

heal. And deal with everything else. It's related

2:31

to , um, you know, kind of unwinding

2:33

the traumas of our past and our experiences.

2:36

And so today's episode, we're actually gonna

2:38

focus on , um, how you

2:40

go back into dating after you've

2:42

been in , um , narcissistic relationships.

2:46

Um, and so for anybody that's listening, if this

2:48

is your first episode here, I do

2:50

recommend that you go back to the episode

2:52

that Wendy and I did. It was called ending the cycle

2:54

of narcissistic relationships. And

2:56

also, fortunately I have a whole show dedicated

2:58

to this. You can probably find out a few more

3:01

episodes that will help you kind of put together and untangle

3:03

that big ball of yarn in your head, which is your childhood

3:05

script. If, however

3:07

you've done that and you're like, okay , I'm, I've

3:09

got my history, I'm co it's coming together, I'm still

3:11

falling off the wagon, which trust me.

3:13

Like I said, I've done this a few times, even myself

3:16

even, you know, recently as in the

3:18

last few months. Um, then this is probably

3:21

a great episode to jump into. And

3:23

so Wendy is here to talk to us about

3:25

what are the next steps on your journey towards having

3:27

these more secure relationships and not

3:29

just the ones with other people, but more importantly the

3:32

one with yourself. So when do you, we'll come back.

3:34

Thank you. I made it so good to be back with

3:37

you.

3:38

Um, so I know that , um,

3:40

I , like I said, we've tackled the topic a lot of

3:42

different ways. One of the last questions that I

3:44

asked you in the last episode was what

3:46

kind of work should someone do on themselves

3:49

first before , um , they

3:51

try to get into the business of managing

3:53

relationships with, with narcissists and

3:56

, and because of wanting to talk about that

3:58

point is , um, as we mentioned in that last

4:00

episode and as you bring up, you know, a lot of

4:02

internal work has to happen first in

4:04

order to really heal that we have to get past

4:06

the understanding what our narcissist is,

4:08

who he is or who she is, what their behaviors

4:11

are, and then start to reflect internally.

4:13

Is that, is that correct?

4:15

Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought up that point because

4:18

I put a lot of emphasis on

4:20

gaining knowledge. Understand as

4:22

much as you can about narcissism

4:25

and issues of narcissism because it

4:27

will liberate you a

4:29

to be not blaming

4:32

yourself, doubting yourself, questioning yourself,

4:34

but really understanding the makeup

4:36

of this individual and how

4:38

it plays a role in hurting,

4:41

sabotaging , um, even

4:43

abuse at some levels, but when it's extreme

4:46

abusing you and abusing the relationships.

4:49

So get that information,

4:51

understand it. Well, the next

4:53

step is understanding yourself. As you just

4:55

mentioned. It's really get to know

4:57

that deep inner core of you.

5:00

Um, what your inclinations tend to be

5:03

both for better and for worse. Because we

5:05

have, you know, we have sometimes

5:07

that gut instinct that we fail

5:09

to trust that will say

5:11

, I'm saying yes, but I really

5:13

want to say no. Why am I saying yes? Why

5:15

am I saying yes? Why am I giving

5:17

in? What am I apologizing for? I'm

5:19

apologizing. You know, your gut is speaking

5:22

loudly, right up through your nervous system,

5:24

into your brain, and yet you're following

5:26

a different path. Maybe one you learned as

5:28

a little child, maybe

5:30

one that was imposed upon you, maybe

5:32

one that was modeled for you. But get

5:34

to know like, where did I get the idea

5:37

that I have to forfeit my needs or

5:39

that I have to give in or that I have to be,

5:42

I'm the one who's always sorry for

5:44

things when I haven't done anything wrong

5:46

or feel guilty when I have nothing to feel

5:48

guilty or ashamed of. So you really

5:50

want to get at the origins of

5:53

that . Get at the core, what we call the schemos

5:55

. You know these embedded traits or beliefs

5:57

or themes about your life

5:59

and put your narrative together

6:02

as clearly as you can. So that's step

6:04

one because step two is going to be how

6:06

do you unlearn it? How do you want to do it? How

6:09

do you protect that sweet, precious little

6:11

you who typically ends

6:13

up, frankly going on the date? You

6:16

know, because whenever we're racked with

6:18

a little anxiety, nervousness, even coming

6:20

out of a narcissistic relationship or

6:23

a relationship with the narcissist, I should say,

6:25

you know, we , we may be more prone to feeling

6:28

anxious and I'm scared

6:30

and concerned reasonably so. But the

6:33

problem with that when it creeps

6:35

up in the body is what can also

6:37

show up from memory is the little you.

6:40

And if you little you is going out on the date,

6:42

then chances become higher that

6:44

you're going to respond to this potentially

6:47

narcissistic individual, hopefully not.

6:49

But if they are, you're going to start responding

6:52

in those old familiar ways, those

6:54

old patterns come right on back.

6:56

I , and I'm glad you brought that up. I , I, for

6:58

the listeners that haven't heard this before

7:00

, um, you know, I , I find that it's really

7:02

helpful for me, especially as I'm talking to you and to

7:04

everybody else is , um, is

7:07

as you're sitting here listening or watching this on video,

7:10

be mindful of your body. Because

7:12

sometimes when we're talking about

7:14

certain topics, we might start to feel

7:17

the response first. You know, we might like our

7:19

heart might jump a little bit or a chest might or we might

7:21

sweat or something. So for the listeners that are out

7:23

there, as we're going through this and we're talking about these topics,

7:25

be mindful of that because that's what Wendy's talking about

7:28

is sometimes that's your first indication,

7:30

right? That little you is popping up

7:32

is because that little rush

7:34

of anxiety comes in. And if you're not used

7:36

to doing that, I mean I can tell you that it's one

7:38

of my biggest, biggest , uh, helpful

7:41

things that I've learned to do is to hear myself

7:43

and like to feel, you know, the response there.

7:46

Um, now because you talk about that

7:48

, um, you know, being able to know who,

7:50

who shows up on the date and I'm absolutely

7:53

like a hundred percent correct and sometimes I find that

7:55

little you is the one who's also , um

7:57

, attracted, you know, the one that gets all excited

8:00

about certain people that it's not really the adult version

8:02

of you. It's the little view that's still going

8:04

after the certain characters

8:06

and qualities and characteristics.

8:09

Um, you know, the whole like what's your type , um

8:11

, your type might still be the little person,

8:14

right?

8:15

Oh yeah. And narcissists are incredibly

8:17

charming, most of them. So

8:19

, um , literally you will may get caught

8:21

up in the fact that they do a really good job

8:24

in courtship. So they're

8:26

very good at willing and

8:28

charming and approving and

8:31

they are funny.

8:33

They can be very bright.

8:35

They all entice you

8:37

with lots of interesting, you

8:39

know, and I've got this and I've got that

8:41

and I can do this for you and I can help you with that.

8:44

And so their heroin seemingly heroic.

8:47

Um, and that can be very appealing to

8:49

someone who's almost

8:51

anyone, frankly, but have

8:53

a little you inside who was

8:55

neglected or who's been deprived

8:58

of certain amounts of attention or who was,

9:00

you know, kind of grew up feeling unsure of yourself

9:03

or had incidents that just led you to feel

9:05

very alone or unimportant

9:07

or insignificant. I mean, it puts just

9:09

puts you at greater risk even though you

9:11

know, most of you have heard me say, perhaps

9:14

you said this to me, that you know, no

9:16

one is immune to being attracted to a narcissist

9:19

for all the reasons I just mentioned. There's

9:21

something about the attraction that's

9:24

not all that puzzling

9:26

because the way they show up, at

9:28

least in the overt sense, but

9:30

if little you is sitting in the other chair looking

9:33

at them, then you won't be mindfully

9:35

aware of the fact that, hmm

9:38

, not asking them any questions

9:40

about me and they're

9:43

not really listening to my answers to those questions.

9:46

They don't seem to , you know, they kind of interview

9:48

me like a journalist , but they don't really

9:51

get caught up in what I'm feeling. What I'm

9:53

saying. They don't seem to be

9:55

really listening. Their eye contact seems

9:57

to be off. There is a lot of

9:59

interrupting when I start my sentence.

10:01

You won't even be necessarily aware of

10:04

that if you're sort of under

10:06

the spell or if you're in your most

10:08

vulnerable state and

10:10

that child's like state, which

10:12

is where we can all get thrown.

10:14

[inaudible] absolutely. I recall

10:17

too , from , uh , one incident

10:19

that I had, right . You know, kind of found myself

10:21

again, like, Ooh, all the, all the shiny bells

10:24

and whistles and you know, go out and, and

10:26

meet this person. And , um, they

10:28

asked questions but they were very

10:30

quick to when I answered,

10:32

tell me how it was wrong and how they could help me

10:34

improve it, whatever it was. Um,

10:36

and so, you know, there are some relief skills,

10:39

you know, people out there, which is why

10:41

I think this episode is really going to be valuable

10:43

from that regard because as we go through, you

10:45

know, some of the questions is identifying really what

10:47

are some of the strong hallmarks of

10:50

that personality type in the dating world and what

10:52

you might hear in stuff. Now I

10:54

want to start off with , um, you know, I talked

10:56

with another woman who had been through

10:58

in a narcissistic relationship and she's actually a

11:00

neuropsychologist and she, so

11:02

she understands like the brain

11:05

chemistries and things. Um,

11:07

and I want to first,

11:10

you know, when you're coming out of a narcicisstic

11:13

toxic relationship, how,

11:15

how would you expect somebody to feel

11:17

in those early days and maybe even

11:19

months as they're extricating themselves

11:22

out of that , um, that abusive

11:24

relationship. Cause I know there's this weird

11:26

pull back into it and

11:28

doubt and you know, I'm just

11:31

this , you know, I called it like glue.

11:33

You mean you have to kind of like disconnect all that glue.

11:36

But if somebody , you know, like some of my listeners

11:38

that just wrote me, that just broke up with somebody, how

11:40

would you expect them to feel and is that all normal?

11:44

Yeah, that's a great question. And

11:47

it's , it's a bit challenging because there's a , there's

11:49

that word depends. It depends on

11:52

how long has it been going on, how much of awakening

11:55

has come in the decision

11:57

to terminate? Did you

11:59

terminate that relationship or did the narcissist

12:03

terminate it ? They don't typically terminate relationships

12:05

unless they have someone already waiting

12:07

in the wings, but who terminated

12:10

and where are you getting help

12:12

? Do you have a big support system? So

12:14

a lot depends because if you're coming out

12:16

of it after a lot of thoughtfulness and

12:18

maybe some therapy and great friends

12:21

and listening to army's podcasts

12:23

and I mean if you're, if you've come out

12:25

of it feeling your strengths , then

12:28

you're going to be feeling on the greater side

12:30

of relief. But even

12:32

with relief comes, you know, the mourning

12:35

, the grief of just kind of looking

12:37

at the time I've invested and maybe

12:39

some of those who was I and why

12:41

didn't I get there faster? And so

12:44

you can end up living in the land of regret for a little

12:46

while or were questioning yourself.

12:48

Even if you've had, you know,

12:51

a fair amount of help and support. If

12:53

you haven't had it, then you're more likely to

12:55

be doubting yourself and, and,

12:57

and really grieving in a way that can be more painstaking

13:00

because of there's a loss, there's

13:02

a sense of investment with

13:04

no real dividends. Um

13:07

, there's a feeling of, you

13:09

know, why does this happen to me? What's wrong

13:11

with me? And

13:13

, um, some, some people come out

13:15

of it and even can be quite scared

13:18

and punitive with themselves. Like, I just need

13:20

to give up relationships. I'm not fit

13:22

for relationships. You know, it must

13:25

be something that I bring out because clearly

13:27

he or she, whoever the narcissist

13:29

is, was incredible out there in the community.

13:32

So must be me. And these are

13:34

all normal reactions. Sad

13:37

but normal reactions to

13:40

extricating yourself from this relationship.

13:42

But mostly there's a fear of

13:44

even thinking about getting into

13:46

another relationship. You know, I

13:48

don't know if I trust myself, if I can really

13:50

make that decision. I just don't trust

13:52

my judgment.

13:54

[inaudible] now you're duplicating it right

13:57

now I've seen the opposite. However,

14:00

without where that, that fear

14:02

is especially I think if you have abandonment like

14:04

in your trauma history , um,

14:06

where I feel like I, I've witnessed

14:08

, um, even even with myself initially

14:11

before I kind of like pulled myself out of the fog

14:13

with the, I can, I can feel

14:15

better if I just go to the next relationship,

14:18

just jump right in. And I, and I've seen people

14:20

do that , um , where they

14:22

are just ready to just charge right

14:24

out hookup with somebody else right away

14:27

and um, um, and get going.

14:29

And you know, is that a recommended

14:31

practice for some people? I mean, I have a gut

14:33

answer for that, but you're the , you're the specialist

14:36

.

14:37

Another really good question. And I'll say

14:39

generally, no, it is not a good idea

14:42

because you know, having time to reflect,

14:44

to breathe, to even just be

14:46

a little, get comfortable with the discomfort

14:49

for a little while. And as you probably

14:51

did, I need to really dig down

14:53

deep and figure out what's the motivational

14:55

driver behind that because it might be an

14:58

old abandonment issue. It might be an

15:00

old issue of deprivation or just feeling

15:03

defective or broken or you know,

15:05

flawed and doing some

15:07

good work on that will help you

15:09

kind of put yourself in that Sturdier,

15:12

poised position, you know , to

15:14

be choosing your next partner

15:16

from a healthier platform. So for the most

15:18

part, no, we don't want to just

15:21

race into another relationship. Um,

15:24

out of fear or out of any

15:26

of those drivers that I just mentioned. Uh

15:29

, there are some cases where

15:32

someone has endured the pain and

15:34

suffering for so long. The loneliness,

15:37

loneliness for so long

15:39

of not feeling loved, of not feeling

15:42

connected, of not having a reciprocal,

15:44

intimate relationship, that by the time

15:46

they terminate the relationship and

15:48

they've done their work, they're ready,

15:51

you know, they're kind of ready to start. I still say

15:53

go slowly, don't just latch

15:55

onto the first person, you know, do your work,

15:57

do your screening, do your scrutinizing,

16:00

but you know, they may be more

16:02

ready because they have done all the

16:05

self-work prior to the ending of

16:08

the relationship with the narcissist.

16:10

Yeah, that's , that's a very good point. And I, and

16:12

I know that there are people that definitely

16:14

, um, feel, you know, that that way

16:16

that they've, they've put in a lot of effort,

16:18

you know, into understanding what's going on with themselves.

16:20

And , um, and yeah, I mean, like I said, you

16:22

know, we are wired to want that and sometimes

16:24

that can be a very therapeutic and healing thing

16:26

is to be able to find that you can connect

16:29

with another person. Again, I'm

16:31

, I'm glad that you said take the time. Um, because

16:34

I do think that one of the things that can

16:36

be really difficult for , um, for

16:38

people, especially if their their backgrounds

16:40

is insecure and anxious is patients

16:42

is a very, very hard thing to come by

16:45

and to manifest in ourselves. And

16:47

, um, because we, you know, we are

16:49

grabbing to try to get, you know,

16:51

a , a solution quickly. You know, we've learned

16:53

how to solve problems and to,

16:56

you know, dodge and weave as much as we can and in relationships

16:58

that , you know, it can be very hard to dial

17:01

back and just say, let's just take

17:03

a few breasts . There's no point in racing

17:06

towards the, you know, Facebook status updates,

17:08

relationship or whatever anybody wants to do

17:10

, um, anybody that that

17:12

is still prone to push

17:15

forward really quickly. You

17:17

know, what would you, what might you say to that

17:19

person in order to help them kind of develop

17:21

that, that sense of patience and

17:24

peace ? I call it peace. I tell everybody I'm, I'm remarkably

17:27

peaceful. I didn't set out to get

17:29

it because I didn't know I needed it. But

17:31

then once I attained it, I feel it everywhere.

17:34

Um , so I don't, and I don't know how to quantify that, but you

17:36

know, from your, your standpoint as a therapist

17:38

, um, what would you advise somebody

17:40

there on how to start

17:43

good for you? Because I love that word

17:45

peace. I mean, finding that

17:47

internal peace and that is part

17:49

of the, in what we

17:52

might think of as our healthiest adult

17:55

mode. You know, being in a posture

17:58

of a healthy adult , which means that we contain

18:00

all the wonderfulness of a , of

18:02

a playful, happy child and you

18:04

know, a curious human. And

18:07

so for those who feel very antsy

18:09

and really want to get back out there, what I say to

18:11

them is use dating. If

18:14

you're going to date, use dating as a discovery

18:17

mission. Use it to learn about you. Don't

18:20

use it to immediately think about

18:22

connecting with someone in a really profound

18:25

way. You, I mean, you might get lucky,

18:27

you might, you know, hit that

18:29

million dollar lottery or something, but know

18:31

that it's tedious. It's hard, but have a

18:34

little fun with it. Be a little curious. Go

18:36

out there and notice yourself. Going

18:39

back to what I said earlier, when you're on

18:41

the date, You know, are you,

18:43

are you apt to share truths about

18:46

yourself? Are you out to say no when

18:48

you want to say no? Are you

18:50

likely to ask questions

18:52

that you , you know, that you're really dying

18:55

to ask, but maybe the former

18:57

you would have been more inhibited. Um,

19:00

notice if you tend to

19:02

agree with things that you don't really agree with.

19:04

Oh, there I am doing that again. That's

19:06

interesting. Why am I doing that with this

19:08

guy or with this woman? So

19:11

use it as a chance to really take inventory

19:14

on who you are and how you show

19:16

up and maybe how you shift

19:18

when you're in a dating relationship

19:21

or dating stance. And

19:23

that will be just such good data. You know,

19:25

you'll see patterns within yourself that

19:28

you may need to work on for awhile.

19:31

Um, so if you just, if you really have the itch today,

19:34

do it in this way. Do it for discovery

19:36

of you as opposed to

19:38

really just trying to, you know, grab another relationship

19:40

as fast as you can.

19:42

Yeah. I love that. I did

19:44

that unintentionally. Like I didn't set

19:46

out to do that when I, when I decided, you know,

19:48

I had taken about a year off and

19:51

then I walked into my therapist's office

19:53

and said, okay, I'm going to try this dating thing again. Like

19:55

I feel like, you know, I'm, I , I called

19:57

it like I'm 90% there, so let's work

19:59

on this 10%. And she gave

20:01

me, you know, a bunch of advice , um, you know

20:04

, uh, and then when I went out and had

20:06

some, you know, mismatches

20:08

happen, you know, they weren't terrible or tragic, but

20:10

I found myself naturally going back because

20:12

having gone through the therapeutic process and this

20:15

inner working in this inner reflection, it just, it

20:17

came naturally to sit there and go,

20:19

okay, let's, let's think about what happened and why

20:21

and all that. And, and I loved it

20:23

because you're right. As I was going through this

20:25

process and dating, you know, several

20:27

people , um, you know, every time

20:30

I found something new, like , uh , you know, one

20:32

of my, my best ones I think is

20:34

, uh , when I went out with a gentleman who

20:36

was much wealthier than I am. And

20:38

, um, I noticed inside of

20:40

me feeling really insecure,

20:43

really nice guy, never did anything. He

20:45

wasn't, he was, he was very unassuming, like you

20:47

wouldn't know, you know , uh , his wealth.

20:50

And so there was nothing about his personality that

20:52

was off putting or anything like that. But just being

20:54

in the presence of that, it bubbled up

20:56

all these insecure feelings that I had about

20:58

money disorders and you know, what

21:00

my childhood experiences told me about wealth and

21:02

money and it set off this

21:05

wonderful new opportunity for me

21:07

to start to heal those parts, you know, of

21:09

my life and apply it to, you

21:11

know, day to day in business and stuff like that. He

21:13

and I still talk, we decided that we, we just

21:15

weren't a good romantic, naturally each other, which

21:18

was fine. And it , it ended just fine. And we still,

21:20

you know, occasionally chat with each other and stuff, which I

21:22

think is really good as to be able to walk

21:25

away from a relationship and not have it blow up

21:27

behind you, but to actually go, let's be adults

21:29

here. Um, but you're absolutely right.

21:32

You know, so then I was like, okay, guess what?

21:34

You've got this great opportunity. You are learning a little

21:36

bit of something about yourself. Like, you know, so if it

21:38

ends in you ended or they end it, you just

21:40

take away, you know, some other good nugget, you

21:42

know, to move forward. Um , and

21:45

it does, it does change it. Like, you know, I

21:47

, I'm with you, like it'd be really awesome to

21:49

meet somebody and have them be the person, but

21:51

I don't, I don't set all those really high

21:55

grand expectations for that. And I think that was

21:57

one of the things I had to change to have , where every

21:59

relationship has got to be the relationship.

22:02

Um, because we , we can be, as

22:04

speaking as somebody who has had these,

22:06

again, toxic relationships, we can

22:09

easily become codependent in them.

22:11

And so that means that we start to put everything on a pedestal

22:13

and we start to work really hard to make sure it all works,

22:16

even if it's not working. And

22:18

, um, and so I, you know,

22:20

one of the things that I wanted to ask you about then was

22:22

once the air has cleared in our life,

22:25

and if a person is apt to

22:27

replay those scripts over and over again,

22:29

meaning that , um, what's attractive

22:32

to them can still be that that

22:34

little person inside of them being drawn to the

22:36

shiny object of what the narcissist carries.

22:39

Are there ever any non negotiable

22:42

red flags that

22:44

you have to look for and avoid

22:47

when choosing or deciding

22:49

if somebody is a good emotional fit for you?

22:51

I mean, I feel like there's, you know, there's obvious

22:53

ones like have they murdered somebody? Do they steal

22:55

all the time? But I do see people tending

22:58

to just kind of like, go, yeah, that's a red flag,

23:00

but you know, I can work with it.

23:02

Um , but I mean, in your opinion, like are there the

23:04

ones that are, you're just like, do not, you know,

23:06

do not negotiate on these

23:08

very, very important. Um,

23:11

something you said earlier that was still sticking

23:13

in my head, and I loved this because

23:16

what you just described

23:18

in your own example of the date and

23:20

the guy who was not the right fit was

23:22

you did your weeding very quickly. You

23:25

didn't spend a lot of time. So

23:28

it's another thing that I suggest to

23:30

individuals who have been in,

23:32

you know , these toxic relationships, especially

23:34

with narcissists where you

23:36

know, you, you go back into the dating world to do your

23:39

weeding very quickly. And that takes

23:41

us to this recent question

23:43

about non-negotiables. I

23:46

use that expression all the time asking

23:48

my clients what are your fundamental

23:51

non-negotiables? And

23:53

take that back to the your earliest memories

23:55

of needs that just were

23:57

never adequately met. Messages you

23:59

got that were so painful and excrutiatingly

24:03

distorted, painful because

24:05

they, they felt true at

24:07

the time. If, especially if they're being

24:09

told by caregivers who are important

24:11

in your life. But if you're carrying

24:13

around the message that you know you

24:15

should have to work harder than the average person because

24:17

you just don't measure up or you

24:20

know, in the end if you don't really

24:22

sacrifice yourself, you're going to be alone.

24:25

So if you've got messages like this

24:27

and there's so many others of course that we could

24:29

come up with, you want to really get a sense

24:32

of what is it that I need,

24:34

you know, what were those needs that were never fulfilled

24:37

and that will help you

24:39

to identify those fundamental non-negotiables.

24:42

Meaning the personal ones, as you said, not

24:44

the ax murderer or the, you know, the serial killer.

24:47

But you know, those, I

24:49

really need to be with someone who has

24:51

the capacity to be affectionate

24:54

or to be present,

24:56

to be a give and take person because I

24:58

have the strong tendencies given what

25:00

I've learned in life for

25:02

better and for worse, to be sometimes

25:05

to giving to self sacrificing , allowing

25:07

myself to become controlled or suffocated

25:10

or subjugated in relationships.

25:13

So my non negotiable is someone

25:15

who's just gonna like glom on and

25:18

manipulate. And I mean, not

25:20

that anybody wants that, but certainly

25:23

that would be a red flag and especially

25:26

a red flag if it's part of your life story,

25:29

you know, and it's easy to get caught up

25:31

in the fantasy and the imagination

25:33

that, you know, I'll just love him

25:35

really well and it'll change

25:37

and you know, I'll just be my best

25:40

self and I could just lose that last 10

25:42

pounds. It's just gonna be like

25:44

amazing. Um, be careful

25:47

with that thinking because again,

25:49

narcissists don't change because of any

25:52

of those reasons. They don't

25:54

change unless they want to change.

25:56

They have to change, they're feeling forced

25:59

to change and then they get good therapy

26:01

to do that, but they don't change

26:03

otherwise. So identifying

26:06

what's absolutely not negotiable

26:09

and really having that deep conversation

26:11

with little you about

26:14

that unmet need and how

26:16

you've coped with that throughout your lifetime.

26:18

Cause that'll give you many clues if your coping

26:20

style has been to subjugate

26:23

and self sacrifice as a means of covering

26:25

up that otherwise feeling

26:27

of being unlovable. This is beautiful for

26:29

narcissists. They get to have their way, they

26:31

get to be entitled, they get to walk all

26:33

over you. And again,

26:35

that's not your fault. It's no one's fault.

26:38

It's just a reality. It's

26:40

just just a life experience

26:42

that needs to be investigated

26:44

so you can heal it so you can

26:47

really heal it. So that when , again, you're going out

26:49

on the date, you're meeting new people, you're

26:51

sheltering the little you, you're

26:54

literally tucking in your little self

26:56

into a safe place in your imagination

26:59

so you can stand up, raise

27:02

your chin, you know, open your eyes

27:05

and walk into that meeting, that

27:07

date with your

27:09

healthy adult intact, ready

27:12

to be an advocate for yourself, ready to

27:14

really take a look and see is

27:16

this going to violate those

27:18

non-negotiables? No. Relationship

27:20

is perfect, but there's, you know, there's,

27:23

you know, small imperfections, compromises

27:25

and flexibility and then there's non

27:27

negotiables.

27:29

Right? Right. You , um,

27:31

I have like two thoughts in my head. Um,

27:34

so I want to continue this one here. Um

27:36

, while you were talking about that, I , I, you

27:38

know, I sat there and I thought, you know, are non-negotiables,

27:41

you know, for clarification , um, really

27:44

are with the deep work, isn't that

27:46

whether or not they have their college degree or

27:49

whether or not they, you know , um

27:51

, you know, have been married

27:53

before or have kids or whatever it is. What

27:56

I had discovered through the dating process was that

27:58

a lot of my, what I thought were my negotiables

28:01

changed and that's a normal process,

28:04

you know , I believe is that you, you, you put

28:06

your list and we're prone to do this unfortunately

28:08

because of online dating, right? You're online dating prop

28:10

, you know , uh , profile doesn't ask you what

28:12

your emotional, non-negotiable points are. You

28:14

can put that in there if you're, if you're privy to

28:16

them. Um , but mostly it just asks you

28:18

about how tall they are, blonde hair, blue eyes,

28:21

college degree, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um

28:23

, and so we get confused with

28:25

that. That's the metric that we're measuring everybody by.

28:27

And that's how we decide whether or not they're a good fit.

28:29

But I will tell you that what I had discovered

28:32

to the course of this, you know, dating

28:34

, um, and starting to reconnect

28:36

with people was one of my major non-negotiables,

28:39

again, rooted in that little girl inside of me,

28:42

which was , um, I

28:45

transparency and communication. I

28:47

am a very forgiving, flexible person.

28:50

If you have a busy day ahead of you

28:52

and it's difficult for you to, or you're not

28:55

addicted to your phone, that's another thing. Um,

28:57

when I send a text message app , I don't have a timer

28:59

on it. I say this now. I used to

29:01

though I used to have a timer and

29:04

I used to want to make sure that the answer was coming

29:06

back timely and if it didn't come back to me timely,

29:08

then my brain went into death , death

29:10

scenarios. Um , he's cheating on me. He's,

29:12

you know, in an accident, he's whatever. That's an anxiousness,

29:15

right? You know, where the , the lack of answer.

29:17

But what I also did discover was that

29:20

I had a pattern of having people in my

29:22

life that when they didn't want to talk to me, they

29:24

just shelved me, put me on the shelf.

29:26

We couldn't circle back to the topic. It

29:28

was just, I'm just going to keep dismissing it and dismissing

29:31

it. And I found that one of my non-negotiables

29:33

was, I don't care if you're busy, just

29:35

say, just tell me that that's what's going on

29:37

here. And then we get to come back to

29:39

this topic, discussion, whatever it may be.

29:42

Um , and let me know that you were thinking about it.

29:44

You weren't able to get to it. And you know,

29:46

and to me that's like a healthier communication.

29:48

It's a, it's a something I feel like I give to people

29:50

in return, but if I have somebody who

29:52

is avoidant in their communication style,

29:55

and when you start to share, they start

29:57

to back away, then I know like there's,

29:59

there's no point in moving forward. Like we're never

30:02

going to have that deeply connected relationship

30:04

that I want to have. Now somebody is working on it. Like,

30:07

Hey, I apologize that I have difficulties being open,

30:09

you know, all that. I'm totally cool with that. That's

30:12

that flexibility, right? I mean, we're all growing, we're all

30:14

works in progress. Um, but so

30:16

for people listening, like to me, those are the,

30:18

those are the non-negotiables. And like you said earlier

30:20

about having like a process of, you know

30:22

, um, uh, getting

30:25

out, cutting sooner, you know, I kind

30:27

of establish two dates, you know, one day

30:29

we all show up nervous and we all show up with our representatives

30:33

and our , you know, our best face. And

30:35

then by the second date it's kind of like you

30:37

should be able to suss out a few things and decide

30:39

whether or not you really want to, you know, keep moving on

30:41

with date three and four. Um, but if it's , if

30:43

there's like definitely out of there and by day two

30:45

, then it's just like no apologies and just

30:48

kind of ,

30:48

absolutely. Yeah. But if you are on

30:50

day five, you know, and because

30:52

you know, it's felt pretty

30:54

good. And in date

30:56

five or date six, there's

30:59

a new discovery. And

31:01

just to keeping with your theme there, which I

31:03

love that idea of that

31:05

example of, you know, not

31:09

really responding

31:12

in a timely way but

31:14

not owning it either. Right? So that

31:16

would be a red flag. The example you gave

31:19

was, you know, if, if, let's say

31:21

the guy in this case is saying,

31:24

look, I, you know, I'm working on this. I know I don't

31:26

always, I don't always

31:28

show up so well, I'm not so

31:31

good at being able to share my

31:33

enthusiasm and

31:35

you know, express myself emotionally, but

31:37

I really want to, you know, I really want to, it's

31:39

just been something that

31:42

I've been working on in my own therapy.

31:44

Okay, that's interesting. Probably

31:46

not a narcissist. That's

31:49

a good sign. But if

31:51

you're not hearing any accountability, any

31:53

responsibility, you're beginning to ask

31:55

some questions. It's knowing at you a little

31:58

bit or some things just changed dramatically

32:00

between date two, three and

32:02

four. It seems to be kind of going

32:04

down the tubes a little bit. Most

32:07

importantly, don't beat yourself up for that,

32:09

you know, don't beat yourself up to that. It's okay.

32:12

You know, move on. It just decide

32:14

it's time. That's enough time. Um

32:17

, even therapists will decide that it might

32:19

take three, four, five assessments

32:21

to decide whether or not this is gonna go

32:23

anywhere in a meaningful way. Um

32:26

, because we do tend to hold

32:29

back, we do tend, does tend

32:31

sometimes to take time to see the

32:33

truth, the true patterns really unfold.

32:35

So again, using your

32:37

word, we need to be a little patient with ourselves

32:40

but not so much so that it's

32:42

going on for weeks and months and

32:44

you know, we end up just really losing precious

32:47

time when we could be discovering

32:49

someone else and discovering something else

32:52

about ourselves as well. You

32:54

know, narcissist for example, your

32:57

, what you're going to to notice

32:59

in that non negotiable category, which I think

33:01

is just non negotiable for almost anyone,

33:03

is that they can't

33:06

be accountable. And you gave

33:08

the example earlier on me that

33:10

you know, they may ask questions but

33:13

they're correcting your answers. It's

33:15

as if there's a correct answer

33:17

and an incorrect answer. And so you

33:19

give your most honest answer because

33:21

you are committed now to being

33:24

honest and upfront. But then they fix it. Well,

33:27

it's not quite like that. It's actually a little bit

33:29

more like this or

33:31

um, you know, they , they sort of dismiss

33:33

it out of hand and one up you with

33:36

maybe something even better or they do that

33:38

bait and switch things that I write about in the book

33:40

where they're kind of baiting you. Like, are you

33:42

okay or what's the matter? Or did

33:44

I say something to upset you? And you share

33:46

a little bit and they sort of roll their eyes or they chuckle.

33:49

Like you're silly for being upset

33:51

about this. I mean, you can predict

33:53

if you've been in a relationship with a narcissist,

33:55

but it's only going to be a matter of time before they're

33:58

being critical and demeaning

34:00

you for being upset with anything

34:02

that they should have to say, you know, any of

34:04

their wonderful words , um, should

34:07

be hurtful to you. How dare you. So

34:10

these are some of the signs that you're going to see

34:12

and you want to watch for them early on. Even

34:14

test them. Even provoke it a

34:16

little bit so you can see what

34:18

the response might look like. I

34:20

often say to my clients, do they,

34:23

even if they don't agree with you, like if there's

34:25

a lack of agreement, I'm , look, I'm, we're using

34:28

the data that comes out of John and Julie

34:30

Gottman's beautiful work on healthy

34:32

relationships, right? Years of research

34:34

and beautiful work and they will

34:37

say this. They'll mention this one point in

34:39

a healthy relationship where you

34:41

may not enjoy all the same

34:43

activities. You may not have all the same shared

34:45

interests, but when you share something

34:47

that's interesting to you, even

34:49

if it's not to him,

34:52

I'm sitting across from you, can he be

34:55

excited about your enthusiasm? Can

34:58

he seem to say, Gee, you really love that, don't

35:00

you? That's great. That's great.

35:02

You light up when you talk about, you

35:04

know, the music , that music, it's not my

35:06

favorite. The boy, I love watching you talk

35:09

about it because you just light up. When you

35:11

talk about do they seem to be

35:13

able to appreciate your interests,

35:15

your enthusiasm, what matters

35:17

to you even if it's not the same for them.

35:20

Cause we're not going to have everything in common

35:22

with anyone. So good

35:24

things to keep an eye on because narcissists certainly

35:27

can't bear it if you have your own opinion

35:29

ideas or preferences, it's

35:31

just one thinkable it's as if you're, you're

35:34

assassinating their character because you're different.

35:37

Yeah. I had that happen and that was when

35:40

early I detected the next narcissists

35:42

like fast and then cut it. Um,

35:45

but I, you know, there were two incidences that,

35:47

you know, red flags. I made

35:49

sure that I didn't just take one red flag and pull the

35:51

ripcord out of fear. Like you said, sometimes you're just

35:53

like, you're , you're on edge and you're worried that

35:56

you're going to make the same mistake again. I

35:58

think that I invested a little

36:00

bit more time than I should have, but

36:02

I'm grateful that I did because then

36:04

I was able to see more landmines and again,

36:06

be able to take away from myself though one of the things

36:08

that was, that was a trigger for me

36:11

and I felt it first in my body. That's

36:13

why I mentioned at the beginning of the episode for people

36:15

to feel how, how something makes you

36:17

feel. Yeah. I had, you know , texted,

36:19

hey, I did this really amazing episode

36:21

of talking about my show. Super excited. I think

36:23

it's one of the best ones I've ever done. Um,

36:26

the response back was, yeah, I'm not sure it's really

36:28

one of your best, but it's okay. And

36:32

that's what I was like, are you fucking kidding?

36:34

You know, and it was, and

36:37

that was my first response was like, ah , and then

36:39

it was like, wait a second, hold on. You know

36:41

where this is going. Like, if here we are in

36:43

the early days of courtship or you know,

36:45

him trying to, you know, to get me interested

36:47

in him because I wasn't like that interested

36:49

in it , but he was really trying hard. I

36:51

know like you just said, I know this only

36:53

goes downhill. This only gets worse.

36:55

It, you know, nothing is good enough and everything

36:58

that I tried to do and that they shift

37:00

you then into wanting to

37:02

support and throw behind everything that they've

37:04

got going on. Like you have to constantly be idolizing

37:07

their work. They get you to do

37:09

that by demeaning that what you're doing is

37:11

really not as important as what they're doing and therefore

37:13

it's not worth your time and energy. You need to stop

37:15

investing in yourself and start investing in me.

37:18

And , um , and I do think that that is one of those

37:20

early, early red flags that you know,

37:22

that [inaudible] to pick up on. And I liked

37:24

that you said, you know, as time goes on,

37:26

you know, is there actually a,

37:29

some key questions or some processing

37:32

that you can kind of trickle out, you

37:34

know, in a dating process and helps tease

37:36

out some of those toxic characteristics

37:39

that all of those, you know, narcissistic

37:42

types of people actually do share

37:44

because there is a behavior pattern behind

37:47

them. And if we don't know how to Suss

37:49

that out until we're totally wrapped

37:51

into him , you know, because we've gotten into the charm

37:53

and the good, you know , the charm, the good luck

37:55

, see overblown love bombing and

37:57

all that other stuff that gets us wrapped in, you

37:59

know, how can we be much more intentional?

38:02

And I know this takes the spontaneity out for everybody.

38:04

That just is like, I just want to go with the flow. Well,

38:07

if you've been in an abusive and toxic relationships

38:09

and unfortunately folks going with the flow is no longer

38:11

an option if you don't want to keep going in that

38:14

past . So , um , help me understand some other,

38:16

some other questions that you might be able to throw

38:18

in and kind of evaluate whether or not you've got a narcissist

38:21

or you know, maybe somebody that's actually a little bit

38:23

healthier and secure.

38:24

Okay . Well let's think, let's use your

38:26

example for, for one thing and then we'll

38:28

go onto a couple of other ideas. But what

38:31

would a healthy response be? You know, clearly

38:34

you're, you're excited about your podcast

38:36

. You're sharing. Yeah , I think this is my

38:38

favorite one. You know, that I've

38:40

ever done and what

38:43

would have been healthy, you know, caring,

38:46

thoughtful, considerate response.

38:48

It doesn't have to be loving cause you're just meeting,

38:50

but you know something that's thoughtful,

38:52

right? Yeah. Well, with another person

38:54

it is. That's amazing. What a great

38:57

job. You know, you're doing so well at it.

38:59

That's it. That's thoroughly

39:03

agree that it's their favorite one. They may

39:05

have a different, but then mention

39:07

the other favorite one . Really? Oh

39:09

Wow. That's cool. I

39:11

really love, I really love

39:13

the one you did on blah, blah, blah. I thought that

39:15

one was fantastic. I just think

39:18

you , you know, you really got your, got

39:20

your act together. You know, I

39:22

mean something.

39:24

I mean , if they don't like your podcast at all,

39:26

they don't like the work you do, then this is probably

39:28

not a good fit. Cause you're not going to get any respect,

39:31

which is another sign. But at least

39:33

share your enthusiasm. Um

39:36

, mention the one that they

39:38

may like even better. Great.

39:40

That's great. You know, you don't have to have the exact

39:42

same opinion, but you were demeaned for

39:45

having, for sharing your opinion.

39:47

So I often say the real golden

39:50

nugget is empathy. The narcissists

39:52

are so bad at this. I mean, most

39:54

people are not great. It's, it's,

39:57

you know, empathy gets confused with sympathy

39:59

and compassion as I think we talked about before.

40:01

But look for

40:03

little strokes of empathy,

40:05

meaning that there's some things

40:07

connecting in a way that feels very resonant,

40:10

as if you can start to see yourself

40:12

reflected in the mind

40:14

and the eyes and the words of the person

40:17

sitting across from you. So it would be something

40:19

like that must've been hard.

40:23

What was that like? Or, Oh,

40:27

you okay. You look a little sad when you said

40:30

that. Or um, well, yeah,

40:32

of course you would be excited about that.

40:34

Given what you just said about you know, your daughter,

40:36

of course you would be excited about the fact that she

40:39

was able to achieve that. Good for you. They're

40:41

connecting with you. It's not

40:43

just, you know, bullets. It's on a screen.

40:46

There's more elaboration. It's more fleshing

40:48

out of the conversation. There's a sense

40:51

that they're attuned to your experience,

40:53

not just the words coming out of your mouth. Again,

40:57

as I said, a lot of people, especially

40:59

men, were just not socialized

41:01

so much this way is women are , are

41:04

not necessarily so good at this, but you'll get

41:06

at least a better flavor of that from

41:09

someone man or a woman who is not

41:11

narcissistic. The narcissist will have

41:13

a lot of trouble with this. They can be,

41:16

they can have a solution, they'll have a solution.

41:19

I know how to fix that, or I know how

41:21

to make that better. Or you know, well,

41:23

you know, we can improve on that or I can help you

41:25

with that. And that's, that's

41:28

enticing. But it's not empathy

41:31

that's not connecting with you, that's not

41:33

attuning to your experience

41:35

that you're having in the moment. And

41:38

I always say it's like more than a thank you. It's when

41:40

someone doesn't just say thank you.

41:42

They say thank you. That really meant a lot

41:44

to me. I was so doubting

41:46

that I would have anyone to support me through this

41:48

process. And there you are . That

41:51

was meaningful. Right? That's a real thank

41:53

you. [inaudible] it's really sharing

41:55

something from yourself. So the question becomes,

41:58

can they connect with your experience? Can they

42:00

share their own, can they be vulnerable?

42:02

Do they show any vulnerability?

42:05

And I don't mean baring their soul in

42:08

their whole, you know, story of life

42:10

and childhood, but just a little vulnerability

42:12

using words like, yeah, that was a little scary.

42:15

Or , uh , yeah, I was a , I was a little upset

42:17

about that . Or , you know, I was giddy with joy.

42:19

It was just vulnerability,

42:22

realness. You sense a real

42:24

person. They're not someone who's

42:26

just trying to prove themselves or

42:28

someone who's just trying to sell you something.

42:31

Right or win you over.

42:33

[inaudible] . Yeah, absolutely. They

42:36

, um, you know, one of the other

42:38

experiences that I, that I've had too

42:40

in terms and, and I actually, I

42:43

have actually started to think about what

42:45

is it that I want to share about myself and how do

42:47

I measure their response back? And like

42:49

I said, I know that takes the spontaneity out. I don't want

42:51

to scare anybody that I've gone out with that you're getting

42:53

interviewed, but I do actually kind of approach it

42:55

as there some, there's some particular

42:57

questions that I want to put out there and one of them is my work

43:00

is important to me. It , we go back to

43:02

what's a non negotiable and non is

43:04

my hopes and dreams and my goals, those

43:06

are non negotiable . Um, and that means

43:08

investing in myself. And that's something that I had

43:10

to learn that you know, that

43:13

it is okay to be incredibly

43:15

passionate about the things that I want to

43:17

do and I want to keep continuing

43:19

to do. And if somebody is,

43:21

like you said, they don't have to, you know, be

43:23

a twin. And I think that's another mistake sometimes.

43:26

You know, a narcissistic trick is to , they

43:29

love to fall into 20 . I don't say all of them.

43:31

Again, I'm not the expert, but my experience has been as

43:33

twinning is a powerful thing that it makes us

43:35

feel like we're connecting by showing everything

43:37

we have in common with each other. And

43:40

, um, and so I don't expect that

43:42

from anybody that they get it. But like you said,

43:44

I do want to know, like, you don't

43:46

have to listen to all the episodes. It's not a requirement,

43:49

but , um, do you get how important it is

43:51

to me, you know, do you understand

43:53

that it is, this is important for me to do

43:55

and that I'm going to, you know, remain passionate

43:57

about doing this type of stuff. Um,

44:00

and because I feel like I have that to give back

44:02

to somebody else, you know, if I, you know, I, I

44:04

understand and respect it and myself

44:06

on how important it is and I understand that, that other

44:08

people can have those things for themselves in it.

44:11

Um , a good relationship is to support a person

44:13

in their endeavors. In dreams. So those

44:15

questions do kind of come up in there of like, well,

44:18

what are your aspirations? What do you like? And

44:20

then to be able to see how they respond. And if they do

44:22

actually give you a great their

44:24

face lights up, right? And then they tell you their

44:26

story about what they want. Like that's what you're talking

44:28

about is that there's a human connection when you can see

44:31

some emotion come out of them, that's, you

44:33

know, engaging and connecting there

44:35

. Um , yeah ,

44:36

but I love, I love what you just said about put it

44:38

out there. Definitely put it out

44:41

there. What's important to you and watch

44:43

what happens. You know , don't be afraid

44:45

to say my kids matter. They are my

44:47

top priority. Um,

44:50

I'm not sure how you feel about that or

44:52

you know, if it's the same for you, if

44:54

they have children too, of course, but

44:57

you know, they are my top priority, so

44:59

I put that right at the end. Watch, watch

45:01

the reaction to that. Is it quick?

45:03

Does it , do they pause? Are they hesitant? Do they

45:05

stumble? Um , do they frown?

45:08

Are they smiling? Are they, again,

45:11

they don't have to feel exactly the same way

45:13

you do. Um, they may

45:15

be in the middle of some conflict with the children

45:17

that they're working through, but you know, you

45:20

want to know that they can respect

45:22

and appreciate what's important to

45:24

you, your work, your kids, whatever

45:26

it might be.

45:27

[inaudible] yeah, and it's a superficial thing

45:29

and I think that that's why it's patience

45:32

that is required is to understand that their

45:34

connection with you, it's gotta be

45:36

more than that superficial level. Um,

45:38

you know, the, the

45:41

understanding of the difference between being complimentary

45:43

of how you look, for example all the time versus

45:46

being able to connect, like you said, at a probably

45:48

a much more intellectual and emotional level.

45:51

Cause we do get that little person inside

45:53

of us, especially if we're feeling a little bit worn

45:55

out from the abuse of the last relationship.

45:57

Any compliment feels good. The compliments

46:00

are not the same as, as

46:02

really connecting, you know, with

46:04

what you aren't supporting, what you're , what you're doing.

46:06

And, and I think that's probably where the

46:08

wounded, you know, of us out there at some

46:10

point in time have fallen prey to

46:13

, um, gosh, they're just, you know, they're

46:15

so flattering, you know? Yeah , yeah.

46:17

And it's,

46:18

sometimes that's a cover up, you know, that I

46:21

talked about in other , um , interviews

46:24

on this very specific topic,

46:26

which maybe someday you and I can get

46:28

more into if your listeners are interested.

46:30

But this, if you've been with a narcissist

46:32

who has also the

46:34

classic kind of cheating

46:37

mentality, whether it's, you know,

46:39

a addiction to pornography, it's addiction

46:41

to prostitutes. It's addiction to , you

46:44

know, sexual affairs with other people,

46:46

whatever chat rooms, whatever it might be.

46:49

But they have this, this

46:51

issue, this , we call it like an intimacy disorder.

46:55

Um, and so it's, there , it's this hypersexual

46:57

mode that they do tend to have, which is another

46:59

way that they can feel grand

47:01

and majestic and wonderful and extraordinary.

47:04

And it's another way that they, it's kind of their drug

47:06

of choice. Another way that they avoid

47:08

intimacy and you

47:10

know, the real give and take of an intimate relationship

47:13

if you've lived through, suffered through

47:15

endures that and you're at , is that

47:18

something you want to get out on the table right away,

47:20

your position on fidelity

47:23

and loyalty and you

47:25

know, you can say, you know, I've lived through this,

47:27

I'm not going to live through it again. So just have

47:29

to put that right out there that

47:32

that's who I am and

47:34

I'm zero tolerance at this point.

47:37

You need to know that.

47:38

Yeah. I, I'm so I'm

47:40

glad you brought that up. Um, and yeah, so we probably

47:42

could talk about that when , um, I'd be happy

47:44

to because that is exactly, you know,

47:47

the , the relationship of having to go

47:49

through with that. And I have

47:51

to tell you that one of the weirdest things was

47:53

to have a conversation

47:56

with somebody that I felt completely

47:59

trusting of them and it was a weird

48:02

sensation. And a part of that piece came

48:04

from, I have no doubts this person

48:06

is, is not who they

48:08

say they are. And I have no doubts

48:10

that they are going to attempt

48:13

to try dating behind my back

48:15

or that they want to keep a bunch of

48:17

people on the table at the same time.

48:19

And the anxiety that goes with are you good

48:21

enough? Are you better than the other four women he's

48:23

talking to? I mean it's such a weird, weird

48:25

process to get out of that. You know that

48:27

lane, you know of those people and

48:30

into that and then it was just like, oh my God.

48:32

So it's , it's relieving

48:35

but you're right. It's like being able

48:37

to say that and just say, listen, this is my past.

48:39

I , I haven't been that explicit.

48:42

I'm happy to do that cause I felt

48:44

like I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure

48:46

out ahead of time if this is the type of person that

48:48

you know will demand that, that

48:50

very direct tone

48:53

or if I can figure it out, you know,

48:55

the same perpetrator, the one that was like,

48:57

that's not your best episode and whatever was

49:00

also chronically texting and

49:03

I'm chatting with a bunch of other women and I laughed. I

49:05

was like, yeah, this is not going anywhere with me.

49:07

Like No. And in fact, he had sent me a text

49:10

with the wrong woman's name in it and I actually

49:12

just shot it back and it was just like, you gotta be

49:14

kidding me here, but

49:17

you're the hybrids place . Yeah. So,

49:20

yeah, we, we can't talk about that

49:22

other one because that is important. Now

49:25

I've seen this amongst other

49:27

people, this perpetually greenlighting

49:29

someone because you want to see the good in

49:32

them and um , and forgiving

49:34

red flags or giving someone

49:36

the benefit of the doubt. And it honestly,

49:38

it does drive me crazy when I see

49:41

, um, a person able to

49:43

inside themselves say, listen,

49:45

I'm just a really forgiving and honest and you

49:47

know, I like to trust everybody. And so, yeah,

49:49

so they were doing all these things, but I don't

49:51

want to, you know, I don't think they'll do it again. I'll give

49:54

them the benefit of the doubt. Um, if

49:57

the person just finds himself in that situation

49:59

where they just want to, you know, trust

50:01

everybody and go with everything but yet still keep

50:03

finding themselves again with the same

50:05

type of a person kind of advice.

50:08

Might you give that individual to start to reflect

50:10

a little bit inside with them? Like what

50:12

would you say to them? That I can't possibly figure

50:14

out what to say to them when I see it.

50:16

So it's very, it's very hard

50:19

because first of all it's such a lovely

50:21

trait to be forgiving and someone

50:24

who gives people a second chance and

50:27

recognizes that there can be all kinds

50:29

of variables that can explain bad

50:32

behavior. If it's, if it's a blip pattern,

50:36

if it's a pattern of behavior, which is

50:38

what you're going to see in narcissism, you're going to see patterns

50:41

of behavior that are deeply entrenched.

50:43

So you're going to be the one always forgiving. Oh

50:46

, always giving the second chance. Giving the benefit

50:48

of the dow coming up with ways of

50:50

describing or you know as say some called

50:52

super empath too . Or , you

50:54

know, looking at the early childhood

50:56

experience and seeing the suffering little

50:58

boy underneath. And you know, he's

51:00

just, just needs a lot of attention

51:02

because he never got the attention you needed. All he

51:04

got was demands and pressure to be

51:06

perfect. And if you're doing

51:09

a that's, it's very thoughtful,

51:11

but the consequences, the cost

51:13

to sell is so high. So

51:16

what I'm often saying is test

51:18

your hypothesis. So if you're going

51:20

to give benefit of the doubt because you believe

51:22

this is a forgivable, you know,

51:24

blip in the wind, that's fine.

51:27

But a confronted talk about

51:29

it, tested , you know, set

51:31

up another experiment that's going to

51:34

give them a chance to come through and

51:36

to come through again and to come through again.

51:38

You want to see more of an enduring pattern

51:41

of positive behaviors

51:44

as opposed to this negative one that maybe

51:46

was just a fluke. But if

51:48

it's a pattern that has a life,

51:50

you know, life span attached to it, I

51:53

move on, she just pay

51:56

a price that you're not going to change

51:58

it, you're not going to fix it. And all your caring

52:00

and your benefit in the doubting in the world

52:02

isn't going to make that go away.

52:05

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know,

52:08

I guess part of the thing

52:10

that I've seen with some other people is the

52:13

still going to the same

52:15

type of a man or woman who

52:18

requires benefit of the doubt over

52:20

and over and over again. So there's one thing when

52:22

you're in with one individual and it's just their

52:24

blip, but when you're, you

52:26

know, I, you know , like let's take

52:28

a hard look here. Does everybody

52:31

require the benefit of the doubt you

52:33

keep dating with , cause that's something different, right?

52:36

Like that's the, you're still not in tune

52:38

with what your script really is because

52:40

I do agree. I think it's beautiful to be open

52:42

minded and I am that way. Um,

52:44

but I guess again, I also don't

52:47

feel like I'm going to keep picking projects

52:49

from this point forward, you know, in my life.

52:52

Yeah. And do you get it in return? I mean is

52:54

, are you given the benefit of the doubt? Are

52:56

you given the opportunity to make a mistake

52:58

or to have a slip? Because

53:00

that's not usually the case. When you're dealing with someone

53:03

who's narcissistic, it's , it's really a double

53:05

standard. They get to be, they're entitled

53:07

to do whatever they want. You're not,

53:10

and so you want to be very careful

53:13

to be watching for that. If you're coming

53:15

from, this goes back to where we started. If

53:17

you're coming from your healthiest adult

53:20

self, then you're knowing

53:22

that you are fine and you're worthy

53:25

and you are deserving of love and respect

53:27

and reciprocity that you

53:29

would only give benefit of the doubt in the context

53:31

of a very healthy relationship. When

53:34

there's moment of fluke, you

53:36

know, a mistake, a headache,

53:39

something has come over your partner and they're not

53:41

at their best self. But coming

53:44

from your healthy adult mode, you are operating

53:46

with the, I'm fine, I'm worthy,

53:49

I'm deserving and

53:51

deserving to be what? Respected.

53:53

Loved, cared for, thought of, shared,

53:56

you know, community in this relationship,

53:59

not this sort of monolithic

54:02

unilateral decision making. Um,

54:05

so you'd have to really take a look at where am

54:07

I, where am I operating from? My

54:09

coming from that platform resists the little knee

54:12

who just has learned how

54:14

sweet, sweet, sweet little me but

54:17

gives in so much and pays such a high

54:19

price and doesn't get his or her needs

54:21

met. [inaudible]

54:23

yeah. Now we're, we're

54:25

coming to the place where , um,

54:27

there I wanted to ask you because this can

54:30

be difficult, which is the breaking off,

54:32

you know, with, with the narcissist.

54:35

And I don't mean the longterm relationship. I , I

54:37

mean like here we're in the dating pool and

54:39

we've been exploring and we've , we've , we

54:41

did it again, you know, we found ourselves

54:44

like, okay , I , I, I'm back in a

54:46

place where I've, I've gone through this. I feel

54:48

like I have done a little bit of testing

54:50

with my questions. I've watched the responses.

54:53

I have somebody here that is going to

54:55

be an unhealthy relationship. What

54:58

is the best way to break up with a

55:00

narcissist? Because you know, in

55:02

the early days they are extremely manipulative

55:04

and charming and relentless. I

55:06

mean, that's the other thing is if they want you badly,

55:09

they don't give up very easily and

55:11

it can be easy to be swept back in

55:13

with the apologies and the I will change

55:15

and excuses or all the other blah, blah,

55:17

blahs. So what's your advice for

55:19

kind of armoring yourself and

55:22

not, you know, and and getting out of that relationship,

55:24

you know, even before it becomes like a full blown relationship.

55:27

I would say take the, take all

55:29

the wisdom that you've just spoken on me,

55:31

all that wisdom that you know

55:33

what they are, they might do,

55:35

which is to now start hounding

55:38

you. I'm trying to prove

55:40

themselves to you. If they really

55:42

want it to work and they feel you drifting

55:45

or you've even said, you know, this isn't

55:47

going to work for me. This isn't just isn't

55:49

the right fit. First of all, I don't think anyone

55:52

has to be apologetic for ending

55:54

a relationship that isn't working for them. You don't

55:56

have to defend yourself. You don't have to be apologetic.

55:59

If the other is

56:01

saying, look, give me some feedback because you

56:03

know, I'm out there in the dating world and I want

56:05

to know what I'm doing that isn't working. And

56:08

again, I would say you can

56:10

share with them, well , I don't know that it won't work for anyone,

56:12

but it certainly doesn't work for me. You

56:14

know, it's just not working for me. And

56:16

so you can give them feedback if

56:19

you feel like you want to share something

56:21

with them, but don't defend yourself. Don't

56:23

be apologetic or ending. You just say, you know,

56:26

this isn't gonna work for me. It's just not the right fit.

56:29

I'm just not feeling it in the way that I want

56:31

to. And so, you know, thanks

56:34

for the time that we've spent, but I

56:36

think I'm going to move on and I wish you the best

56:39

done right. But if

56:42

you're already suspicious because you tried

56:44

to maybe slip

56:47

away even sooner and they

56:49

keep coming back, use

56:51

the preemptive strike. You know, please, please

56:53

understand that this is not me

56:55

playing hard to get, this is not an invitation.

56:58

Continue to keep contacting me. Um

57:01

, I'm really asking you to respect,

57:03

you know , my boundary at this point

57:05

because I, I'd like to move on and

57:08

I don't do that with ill will . I'm, it's

57:10

just what I need to do. Right.

57:12

So you can even preempt anything you

57:14

anticipate that might follow with

57:16

a very clear line and a very clear limit,

57:19

you know? No, we're not going to talk maybe next

57:21

week and give it another shot. Right?

57:24

Yeah. And boundary violations,

57:26

like we talked about this in the last episode,

57:29

you know, when you, when

57:31

your experiences in your script in your Schema

57:33

is a story of having your boundaries repeatedly

57:36

violated, like not even acknowledged

57:38

that you have some degree of limits

57:40

for your own self that can be honored and respected

57:42

by, you know, caregivers or people around you.

57:45

Um, you know, you are used to, you know, having

57:47

your boundaries continually violated in personal

57:49

relationships. And narcissists are

57:52

boundary violators, you know, I mean they're , they're used

57:54

to always being able to kind of press through

57:56

and ignore, you know, the boundaries that you set

57:58

out there. Um, and so that is important.

58:00

And so, you know, saying we're done.

58:03

I do know also , um, from the experiences

58:05

with narcissists is that the intensity, they

58:07

love it. So if you start to get in that

58:09

defensive mode, you know, like Wendy says,

58:11

don't do, you know, it's only,

58:14

it can't only just be more fodder in

58:16

bait for them to continue to try

58:18

to convince you more and you know, and it can

58:20

go on and on and on and on, like in , you

58:23

know, forever. So keeping it clean, keep it

58:25

as simple .

58:25

Yeah. Done . Yeah,

58:28

it's not the , it's not you, it's me. You know , forget

58:31

the, it's not you, it's me.

58:34

Just me. It's, we're done. We're done. We're done. And

58:36

you know, and I will put this out there too , depending

58:38

on the intensity of it, you know, sometimes

58:41

we feel badly for blocking. People don't feel

58:43

badly for blocking people. You know, if you have to

58:45

block the text blocks , the Facebook page,

58:48

you know , the contact, whatever it is , um,

58:50

because you just know that it's not, it

58:52

just doesn't feel healthy to you. And

58:54

you've got all those fields in you. Like

58:56

I said during this interview with you, Wendy, I did get

58:59

some of those sensations crop up and my

59:01

body and stuff. And so I don't know if anybody else listening

59:03

kind of had the same experiences while they were going through

59:05

this. But remember that's your signal, you know, that you've kind

59:07

of touched on something too, to really think about

59:09

it and be reflected . Yeah.

59:12

So it is possible, right . To

59:14

find love after being through narcicisstic

59:16

relationships and get healthy, secure relationships.

59:18

Right.

59:19

I've done it. That's how it's possible.

59:23

Good . Awesome. Well, I appreciate you so

59:25

much and thank you for coming back on and I am

59:27

looking forward to talking with you more , uh , about

59:29

other topics. Um, and especially the one , um

59:31

, when you've been in the relationships with one where

59:33

you've been, you know , cheated on and this

59:36

very, you know, a using the,

59:38

the sexual relationships as

59:40

basically like you called it, like it's a drug,

59:42

it's a medication. Um, those are, those

59:44

are tough and powerful and , and knowing how to

59:47

, um, you know, not

59:49

every trauma, the trauma of betrayal

59:51

is very,

59:52

yeah, that's again where the, no , I chest titans

59:55

right there. So , um , I'm, I'm certain

59:58

and when in those relationships , uh,

1:00:00

it would probably, I would say it's some

1:00:02

people that I've known that have had their nurses [inaudible]

1:00:05

partners haven't had to deal with that, but

1:00:07

I do know many people out there including myself

1:00:10

where that has been one of the biggest traumas

1:00:12

, um, because it does the betrayal

1:00:14

also is the trigger

1:00:16

of the abandonment, you know, being basically

1:00:19

not chosen and left behind over

1:00:21

and over and over again. And

1:00:23

that was probably one of the most toxic and poisonous

1:00:25

feelings that I had. So

1:00:27

I get that.

1:00:28

The only thing I would add is that follow

1:00:30

those body sensations that you've mentioned

1:00:32

so poignantly, follow those bodies

1:00:35

sensations to recognize

1:00:37

that it might be, again, that old

1:00:40

story kind of creeping up through your nervous

1:00:42

system, through your memory and you

1:00:44

know, embrace it and, and commit

1:00:47

to that part as opposed to committing

1:00:49

to the person you're worried about blocking over there

1:00:52

or the person who you know, is trying

1:00:54

, still trying to woo you and you don't want to turn

1:00:56

them away, you know, commit here to

1:01:00

self-advocacy and protection, healing of

1:01:02

that part of yourself. And you'll

1:01:05

know you'll, you'll bypass these,

1:01:07

these tendencies to continue to be

1:01:10

gravitating towards narcissistic individuals

1:01:12

.

1:01:13

Yeah, I think that's actually a really great point

1:01:16

because the narcissistic person

1:01:18

always has an answer for your objections. They

1:01:20

always have a verbal response back to

1:01:22

whatever it is that you're raising. And

1:01:25

, um, but if it never makes

1:01:27

this feel any better, and I know that's how

1:01:29

I knew I was in a danger, you know,

1:01:31

danger mode with a, with another

1:01:33

potentially, you know, toxic

1:01:35

relationship was I kept coming back to the

1:01:38

body. Um, and for me , um,

1:01:40

I , I can't remember if we discussed this in

1:01:42

, um , the episode or not,

1:01:44

but I have rheumatoid arthritis and my,

1:01:47

my Ra is triggered and I discovered

1:01:49

exactly what triggers my ra. And it

1:01:51

was this type of an individual, whether it was

1:01:53

in a professional setting or in a personal setting. So

1:01:56

when I started to have a flare up, I knew,

1:01:58

I just knew this is a poison to

1:02:00

my system and it doesn't matter what they

1:02:02

say or how they're doing it, my body is telling me

1:02:05

right up, run, get

1:02:07

out, get out. Now because

1:02:09

of all the unconscious signals

1:02:11

you know, that my body had put together to, to protect

1:02:13

myself through life from these types of people that I never

1:02:15

knew to honor and listen to . Brilliant , brilliant.

1:02:18

So I don't recommend chronic illnesses

1:02:21

for everyone, but our nervous system

1:02:23

does talk to us, you know, and I've learned that,

1:02:25

that that really does our body is talking to us.

1:02:27

So I think that's a great point. Well,

1:02:30

you're amazing and thank you so much

1:02:32

for, for doing this again with me today. I appreciate

1:02:34

knowing you and having you on the show. Amazing

1:02:38

and I am

1:02:38

so happy to be with you again. Thank you. Thank

1:02:41

you.

1:02:45

Thank you for listening to one broken mom . You

1:02:47

can find podcast notes on my [email protected]

1:02:51

and they're all provide all links to all

1:02:53

of the resources that we mentioned on the episode. Also,

1:02:56

if you have any questions, comments, or ideas

1:02:58

for other episodes, feel free to send me

1:03:00

an email. And if you are interested in sponsoring

1:03:03

the show, I'd love to have you be a part of the team.

1:03:05

Finally, if you like what you hear, please

1:03:07

share the podcast and leave a review so that

1:03:09

others can find it. You're all here to get

1:03:11

better together. I am the host of me per kone

1:03:13

, and as always, I am super grateful to have you

1:03:15

as a listener and next time have

1:03:18

a great day.