0:04

This is the only wife of the six that

0:06

he didn't know beforehand, and he didn't

0:08

have some say in marrying. They

0:11

had this very awkward first meeting where

0:13

she didn't recognize him. She seemed to be a little

0:15

unsophisticated, not as educated

0:17

as some of the other wives, and he decided

0:19

within a couple of days he needed to get rid

0:22

of her as quickly as possible.

0:31

Welcome to One day University Talks

0:33

with the world's most engaging and inspiring

0:36

professors discussing their most popular

0:38

courses. This podcast is

0:41

your chance to discover some of our top

0:43

rated lectures on your own schedule.

0:45

I'm Stephen Shregis. We're

0:47

wrapping up this season by telling you the real

0:50

stories behind the six wives

0:52

of King Henry the Eighth. Everyone

0:54

knows the awful face of these women. There's

0:57

even a rhyme to help remember devor

1:00

beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded,

1:03

survived. But Georgetown

1:05

history professor Amy Leonard says

1:07

there's a lot of misinformation out there about

1:09

them, including in that rhyme.

1:12

There was no divorce for King Henry, only

1:14

in nulments. Amy

1:16

also says, while the popular Broadway musical

1:19

six is a great show and

1:21

gets a lot right about the women. It

1:23

also gets some things wrong, like

1:26

Henry being duped by an inaccurate

1:28

portrait of Anne of cleves Amy.

1:30

Leonard separates fact from fiction in her

1:32

one day university lecture The

1:34

Six Wives of Henry the Eighth. In

1:36

addition to learning the real story about

1:38

the wives, she says that we should

1:40

also remember King Henry for more

1:43

than his multiple marriages.

1:52

Henry is hugely important for English

1:54

history, and it's kind of sad in some ways that it

1:56

gets completely overshadowed by

1:58

his personal life and relationship with his

2:00

wives. One of the most important things he

2:02

does is because of wanting

2:05

a successor. Is he breaks from Rome

2:07

and he brings about the English Reformation. There'll

2:10

be lots of changes that happen after his time,

2:12

but by breaking from Rome and setting

2:14

up the king as the supreme head of

2:17

church and state, he really changed

2:19

the course of English history. I mean, he gives Parliament

2:22

much more power. They're the ones who actually

2:24

annull the marriage and allow him to take

2:26

over. That religious movement

2:29

transforms England into a Protestant nation,

2:31

and so that was due to Henry. He

2:34

himself was not that Protestant. He ends up pretty much

2:36

Catholic for his whole life. He cared more about

2:38

his own power than about religion. I

2:40

mean, if it's England on to sort of the European

2:43

stage instead of what had been kind

2:45

of a remote backwater, he's in connection

2:47

with France, with the Habsburgs, with Spain. He

2:50

really makes England something that

2:52

has to be kind of reckoned with. And also,

2:54

I mean on a sort of cultural side, he's quite

2:56

a renaissance man. He thinks of himself as

2:58

being very well educated. He cares

3:00

deeply about culture and the arts

3:03

and wants to bring that into England as well.

3:05

So there are lots of other things he does other than

3:07

get married six times.

3:09

What's the biggest misconception about

3:11

these six women who were all wives.

3:14

I think that they can be easily summed

3:16

up or described in one word. You know,

3:18

one's the temptress, or one's the loyal

3:21

wife, one's the saint. And I

3:23

think they're too often seen as pawns

3:25

in history, that they're the victims so

3:28

often of what happens, rather than having any

3:30

kind of agency of their own or any

3:32

kind of influence of their own. They're very important

3:34

in their own right for what they do as

3:36

queens, what they do, you know, within their courts,

3:39

how much influence they might have on Henry

3:42

and others around him, And so I

3:44

think that they're too often talked about just sort of

3:46

as these wives who

3:48

are only understood in relationship to Henry

3:50

and their mostly terrible ends, when

3:52

in fact they have these rich lives that go

3:54

beyond that.

3:55

Wife Number one fifteen oh nine

3:58

Catherine of Aragon. She was

4:00

actually the widow of Henry's older

4:02

brother, Arthur. How did

4:04

she end up getting married to Henry.

4:07

Well, Arthur dies young, and there's

4:09

some debate over whether or not the marriage was ever

4:11

even consummated. Catherine says it wasn't,

4:13

and Henry the Eighth's father,

4:16

Henry the seventh, who had arranged the marriage

4:18

between Catherine and Arthur, didn't

4:20

want to lose that connection. I mean, it was connecting

4:22

to powerful Spanish monarchs.

4:25

She had a huge dowry that she came in

4:27

with and Henry didn't want to lose that. So

4:29

Henry was trying to figure out a way of

4:31

keeping all of those positive things that came from

4:33

the first marriage.

4:35

So amy, they were married for nearly twenty

4:37

four years, and then the marriage ends

4:40

not in a divorce, but in an annulment. I

4:43

know why, but I don't know the details.

4:46

Can you explain them to me and to our listeners.

4:49

Yes.

4:49

So the marriage starts off fairly happily.

4:52

Henry is happy. He's grown up with

4:54

Catherine, he knows her well, and so he

4:56

agrees to marry her, and so by

4:59

all accounts, they have a very good and close

5:01

relationship. But then the problem

5:03

is is that Henry wants a successor,

5:05

and he wants a male successor. And so

5:07

Catherine has many, many pregnancies,

5:10

but all of them end in miscarriage or

5:12

stillbirths except for one, and so

5:14

she's only able to have one viable

5:17

pregnancy with Mary, a girl

5:20

being born. And so Henry just feels

5:22

that this is a sign from God that somehow

5:24

he never should have married her to begin with, and

5:27

that God is punishing him by not giving

5:29

him a male heir. And this is very

5:31

much the sexism of the time, the idea that

5:33

only a man can rule, although there were

5:36

other female queens throughout Europe in the

5:38

sixteenth century in particular, but Henry

5:40

is fixated on the idea that it's

5:42

because he married his brother's widow

5:45

that he needs to get this marriage annulled

5:47

and marry somebody else that can give him a male

5:49

heir.

5:50

Then let's turn to the Bible for a bitute. There's

5:53

a reference in Leviticus that's

5:56

sort of wrapped up in all of this. Can

5:58

you explain that Bible passage to us

6:00

and how Pope Julius the second got involved.

6:03

Yes, So it's from Leviticus twenty twenty

6:05

one of chapter and verse that says

6:07

if a man shall take his brother's wife,

6:10

it is an unclean thing, they shall

6:12

be childless. Henry the seventh wanted

6:14

to make sure that everything

6:16

was as tied up neatly as

6:18

possible, so he goes to the pope, who

6:21

is Pope Julius the Second, and asks

6:23

for a special dispensation to sort

6:25

of counteract Leviticus

6:27

and say that it's okay for Henry

6:29

to marry his brother's wife. And

6:32

so Julius then gives the dispensation,

6:34

and they think that this is something that will sort

6:36

of strengthen the case. But in the end it's going

6:38

to become more of a problem later because

6:41

the later pope is not going to want to countermand

6:44

what the previous pope had decided

6:46

with this dispensation.

6:48

Okay, I'm going to remember that the Bible is complicated.

6:51

Wife number two was

6:54

Anne Berlin, and there

6:56

are a few conflicting stories about

6:58

Anne's physical appearance. Do you

7:00

know what she looked like?

7:01

This is a fascinating question, and this gets to the whole

7:03

kind of power of tudor propaganda,

7:06

and so that you know, Henry and the other tutors

7:08

wanted to create their own story, and so once

7:11

and later on gets written out, they

7:13

do a great job of kind of airbrushing

7:16

or out of history, and so we don't really

7:18

know what she looked like. We have a bunch of different

7:20

portraits, some of them saying that they're her, some

7:22

of them that we aren't really sure, and

7:24

there's a lot of difference in it. And so just

7:27

in terms of having actual images

7:29

of her, a lot of them were destroyed and a lot

7:31

of them are unclear whether it's actually

7:33

her. We have a lot of descriptions of her

7:35

from the time, and most of those are from

7:37

hostile sources. So they will

7:39

say things like she had a sixth finger,

7:41

she had a goiter on her neck, she had like

7:44

wartz. They'd make her seem fairly

7:46

unattractive, which seems somewhat surprising

7:48

that Henry would marry someone like that.

7:51

What we do know, what seems to be pretty

7:53

consistent, is that she had dark

7:55

hair, and she had really dark

7:57

but lively and very attractive

8:00

of eyes. Like almost everybody comments

8:02

on these eyes that showed

8:04

intelligence, showed a vivacity,

8:06

and that really drew people in. But I

8:08

do find it interesting that we can't for sure saying

8:11

we have this for a couple of his wives, that we don't know for

8:13

sure what they look like.

8:14

The marriage to Anne led to the Reformation,

8:17

the establishment of the Church of England. Can

8:20

you explain that rather a momentous event

8:22

to us?

8:23

Yes, And this is one of the things that Reformation historians

8:25

debate endlessly of you know, was

8:27

this just the flip of a pen and Parliament's

8:30

decision, and that there was actually no kind

8:32

of popular support, that this is a complete top

8:34

down effort by Henry, And

8:36

in some ways it was. And so that Henry

8:39

desperately wants to marry Anne and

8:41

at some point is pregnant. I mean, she'd held him

8:43

off for a long time, but when she's pregnant,

8:45

Henry is fixated on the fact that this must

8:47

be his male heir, God is now

8:50

rewarding him, and so that he needs

8:52

to have the marriage annulled. The Pope is not

8:54

doing it. The Pope is not on his side now,

8:57

and so you know that all he can do

8:59

is to after you, break from the pope, and that this is the

9:01

only way that he's going to be able to get

9:03

the marriage annulled and to get what he wants,

9:06

which is a baby born legitimately,

9:09

the assumption being that it's going to be a boy. So

9:11

he gets Parliament to annul the marriage

9:13

rather than the papacy, and in

9:16

that moment breaks from

9:18

the authority of the church. And so

9:21

he then has the Act of Supremacy, which

9:23

puts him as the head of both the church

9:25

and the state, and has everybody,

9:27

all the important people in England have to sign

9:30

it, basically saying that the

9:32

Pope is no longer the head of the Catholic

9:34

Church and so now we have the king

9:36

as the head of it, and that this sort of

9:39

tangentially brings in the Reformation

9:41

that will start the process of the Reformation,

9:44

but that really won't get completed until

9:46

under Henry's son, Edward the sixth

9:49

and then later on even more so under.

9:50

Elizabeth speaking of momentous

9:52

events and ends up beheaded.

9:56

How did that happen?

9:57

This is one of the things that is certainly the history

9:59

of this period tends to blame the wives

10:01

a lot, or some of the wives for what happens.

10:04

I mean, Anne's number one failure is that she's

10:06

not able to give Henry what he wants, which

10:08

is a male child. So he gets this annulment,

10:10

he gets to Mary Ann, he's so excited,

10:13

and then instead of the son that he's

10:15

been assuming will come, it's Elizabeth.

10:18

So now he has Mary and Elizabeth, and

10:20

the whole Reformation was for naught in his mind.

10:23

Anne is also pushing her own agenda

10:25

in some ways, and she's going to alienate

10:27

people. She's not as politically

10:30

savvy as she could be. There's a lot of debate

10:32

over how much of this is Thomas Cromwell's

10:34

fault or not that Thomas Cromwell really

10:37

was instrumental in her downfall, and

10:39

so in the end that's going to kind of undermine

10:42

and through her own behavior and other

10:44

people's kind of machinations, and

10:46

so that'll end up where she's going to be accused

10:49

of adult tree. She's going to be accused of incest

10:51

with her own brother, and so she'll be

10:54

then tried for treason,

10:56

because cheating on the king is treason,

10:59

and she will be convicted of that and

11:01

then decapitated.

11:02

So let's move on to wife number three, Jane

11:05

Seymour, who finally produced

11:07

the male heir that Henry

11:09

wanted so badly. How did these

11:11

two meet? I heard that

11:15

he married her right after Anne's

11:17

beheading? How did that happen so

11:19

quickly?

11:20

So Henry met Jane the way that he had met

11:22

Anne and the way that he's going to meet some of

11:24

his other wives is that she was a lady

11:26

in waiting for the queen. So Jane

11:28

had been a lady in waiting for Catherine

11:30

of Aragon and then was also one

11:33

for Anne Bolin, and so she was just always

11:36

around in the court, and that he also knew her

11:38

father. He claims that she's his favorite

11:40

wife. And when he does a portrait of himself later

11:42

on, when he's actually married to Catherine Parr,

11:45

he does this portrait of him with

11:48

Jane Seymour, who has been dead for over

11:50

a decade, and his son Edward,

11:52

and then his two daughters off to the side.

11:54

So it's clear that she's the one

11:56

that he has the most fondness for. I think

11:58

first, because she gives him so and so that

12:01

is what he wants. She is the only one of his six

12:03

wives who gives birth to a boy who

12:05

survives to inherit the throne. And

12:07

two, I think that, and this is a little bit perhaps

12:10

cynical of me, she dies right

12:12

after Edward is born, and so she

12:14

doesn't cause him any more problems. She isn't

12:17

around to kind of ask for anything more. Her

12:19

motto was bound to obey and

12:21

serve, And so I think that she was definitely

12:24

a much more controllable wife than

12:26

the two previous ones for Henry. So I

12:28

think all of that really appealed

12:31

to Henry after going through two very

12:33

strong willed marriages with strong

12:35

willed women.

12:38

After the break the last three

12:40

wives of Henry the eighth, including

12:42

one who gets a rare happy ending,

12:58

we're up to wife number four, Anne

13:00

of Cleaves. She's been

13:02

referred to as the strategic wife,

13:05

So what's her story.

13:06

So after Jane dies, Cromwell

13:09

and some others really see this as an opportunity

13:11

for creating more political alliances.

13:14

Neither Anne nor Jane had really given

13:16

anything in a kind of political international

13:19

way that often royal marriages

13:21

were supposed to bring. And so Cromwell sees

13:24

this as an opportunity to shore up their

13:26

kind of Protestant connections, and so

13:28

he's looking to the Protestant states, particularly

13:31

anyone who can sort of help them against

13:34

Charles the fifth. And so Charles the fifth is the great,

13:36

big, holy Roman emperor king

13:38

of Spain. He controls a tremendous

13:40

amount of territory, and Cromwell is looking

13:43

to sort of help support England against

13:45

that, both politically and in a Protestant

13:47

way. So he looks at Anne as

13:50

being the daughter of a Protestant

13:52

prince or pseudo Protestant prince, but

13:55

somebody who is a member of the Schmalkaldic

13:57

League, which is a German league basically

14:00

affiliated with Prosentism against

14:02

Charles the fifth, and so sees that

14:04

Henry marrying Anne can tie

14:07

him closer to these princes,

14:09

closer to Prosentism, and help

14:12

against what is seen as this big threat

14:14

of the Habsburg Charles the fifth. So

14:17

it's the most pragmatic and

14:19

political arranged marriage that Henry

14:21

has.

14:22

This one ends up in surprise and

14:25

annulment, this time

14:27

an agreeable one according to your lecture.

14:30

Explain that, and explain how this one was annulled

14:32

as well.

14:33

This is the only wife of the six that

14:35

he didn't know beforehand and he didn't

14:37

have some say in marrying, and

14:40

that they had this very awkward first meeting

14:42

where she didn't recognize him, and she didn't really

14:44

seem to understand the courtly

14:46

ways of the tutor court. She seemed

14:48

to be a little unsophisticated, not as

14:51

educated as some of the other wives. This

14:53

was something very kind of embarrassing to Henry,

14:56

and that caused him to turn against the marriage

14:58

right from the beginning. And then was really,

15:00

you know, it was sort of doomed from the start

15:02

where they could never consummate it, and he decided

15:05

within a couple of days he needed to get rid

15:07

of her as quickly as possible. She had been betrothed

15:09

to somebody else, and so that caused complications,

15:11

and so they were easily able to come up

15:13

with reasons for annulling it, and

15:15

Anne went along with it. And that is sort of the big

15:18

difference between Anne and Catharine of Aragon.

15:20

If she had gone along with the annulment, she probably

15:22

would have been set up very well, but she refused.

15:25

And she refused because they had been married for over

15:27

twenty years and they had a child together

15:29

and the child was made of Bastard by the annulment.

15:32

Anne had had no connection like that.

15:34

And for Anne, you know, she saw her

15:36

options, she knew what had happened to other wives,

15:38

and she realized that, you know, it would make

15:41

no sense at all to hold out, and so

15:43

she said, fine, I am happy with the annulment.

15:46

And Henry is very grateful

15:48

for this, and he settles

15:50

a very large payment on her

15:53

actually gives her one of the castles that have been in

15:55

Anne Boleyn's family, and you know, it's

15:57

this huge settlement that she is able to live very

16:00

comfortably on for the rest of her life.

16:02

It seems like she ends up the best of the

16:04

six wives. We also have to remember that

16:06

this was pretty humiliating for her as well.

16:08

I mean, she gets rejected by the

16:11

king. She can't go back home because

16:13

she can't marry somebody else because then that's complicated

16:15

as well for Henry. So she's sort of

16:17

stuck in a country she doesn't know, she doesn't

16:19

know the language very well. She's quite

16:22

welcome at court. She gets along very

16:24

well with both Elizabeth and Mary, and

16:26

Henry calls her his dear sister

16:28

and actually treats her better than he does any of

16:30

his wives after that. So she

16:32

does really make the best of it and make for

16:35

quite a good Eddica, and she outlives all of the other

16:37

wives.

16:38

Wife number five, Catherine

16:40

Howard. I heard she started

16:43

out pretty well and then things took

16:45

a serious turn for the worst and

16:47

she ends up aheaded two years later. What

16:50

happened?

16:50

So Henry is absolutely smitten with

16:53

her. She's very young, she has

16:55

this vitality. She's beautiful, she's

16:57

flirtatious, she's fun. But

17:00

there's a serious age gap. He's

17:02

forty nine when they get married, and she's

17:04

anywhere between fifteen and twenty one.

17:06

We don't actually know her real birth

17:09

date. I would say she's closer to seventeen

17:11

or eighteen. When she gets married to him.

17:14

He lavishes her with gifts and praise

17:16

and really kind of uses her to sort

17:18

of feel young again. So I think in those first

17:20

days she's really happy to be taken care

17:22

of. She had grown up kind of poor in a lot

17:24

of ways. And so that she's getting all of these

17:27

gifts, and she's a queen, and

17:29

so I think that she loves having that kind

17:31

of influence and power. But Henry

17:34

is not doing well. You know, he's only

17:36

forty nine, but he had a hard life

17:38

at that point, a lot of illnesses and injuries

17:41

from his jousting, and so he was pretty

17:43

cantankerous. He was starting to get

17:45

more and more ill starting to rage more

17:47

and more. There's a lot of debate over you

17:49

know, maybe some brain damage that he

17:51

had that's hard for her to deal with as

17:53

a young woman, and so she starts

17:55

sort of turning away from him and looking for

17:57

other people to kind of get comfort from.

18:00

I think she gets a bad rap in the historiography in a

18:02

lot of ways, but she also doesn't make very

18:04

sensible choices. So she is sort of

18:06

falling in love with other people and putting

18:09

that into writing, and so very quickly

18:11

it's going to be clear that she's committing

18:13

treason, because that's what happens when you cheat on

18:15

the king. And so Henry is going to

18:17

be extremely disappointed that yet

18:20

again he's chosen wrong and

18:22

his wife has betrayed him.

18:24

You described her entrance to the Tower

18:26

of London for I guess what

18:28

you'd call her trial. That's pretty

18:30

gruesome.

18:31

Yeah, So it's pretty sad for Catherine. And I

18:33

think there's clear evidence that she was

18:35

sexually assaulted as a young girl, probably

18:37

when she was like twelve or thirteen, then had

18:39

another affair with another older man when

18:41

she was still very young. When she's

18:44

put on trial for adultery for

18:46

treason, some of these old lovers

18:48

are going to come back and testify against

18:50

her and sort of talk about the sexual relationships

18:53

they had. Her supposed lover within the court

18:55

and then someone from earlier before she got

18:57

married. Both of them testify against

18:59

her, and because they've committed adultery

19:01

with the King's wife or soon

19:04

to be wife, they are both executed,

19:06

and after their execution,

19:09

their heads are put on spikes outside

19:12

the Tower of London. And so when

19:14

Catherine comes in for her own trial,

19:17

she comes in through what's known as the Trader's Gate,

19:19

and the boat takes her past these

19:21

pikes with her former lover's

19:24

heads on top of them, and I

19:26

just can't imagine what that must have been like for

19:29

her.

19:29

On to wife number six, the very last

19:31

one who was Katherine Parr. She

19:34

actually outlived Henry for a little while.

19:37

I've heard she had the most influence upon

19:39

him in terms of culture,

19:42

religion, the role of women, education

19:44

of his children. What's that all about.

19:47

So Catherine is fascinating. I think all the wise

19:49

influence in some ways, but Catherine Parr and Catherine

19:51

Aragon we really sort of see it in

19:53

terms of culture and education. And

19:55

so for Catherine Parr, she is one

19:57

of the great educated women of her day.

20:00

She is a published author. She's the first

20:02

published female author whose name

20:04

is actually on the work that is

20:07

printed. I mean, she was more classically

20:09

Protestant than Henry was at this point, so

20:11

she had to hide that a little bit. But that's going to

20:13

be something that influences particularly

20:15

Elizabeth, and so she has a good

20:18

deal of say in how Elizabeth

20:20

gets educated. Who are the tutors

20:22

for her? And Elizabeth gets this very

20:24

very good humanist education. Many

20:26

see Catherine as being fundamental to that, although there's

20:29

a little bit of debate over how

20:31

much she was involved, but I think she was

20:33

involved enough that it does make a difference

20:35

certainly for Elizabeth's later life

20:37

in terms of really lasting influence

20:40

for both Mary and Elizabeth Jane

20:42

Seymour had started this, but Katherine Parr is

20:44

able to kind of ended of getting

20:46

both Mary and Elizabeth added back

20:48

into the succession, so that she gets

20:51

Henry too, even though there's still

20:53

technically illegitimate. She gets Henry

20:55

to add them both in after his

20:57

son Edward the sixth and so that would

21:00

be next, and then Elizabeth, and that Most

21:02

historians think that Catherine was really instrumental

21:05

in doing that, and she had a very good relationship

21:07

with both Elizabeth and Mary until

21:10

after Henry died, and then she

21:12

and Mary will have a falling out because

21:14

of her next actions.

21:16

Well, then phillis in what happened to Catherine

21:19

after Henry died.

21:20

So they're married a couple of years Henry dies.

21:23

Before Catherine had married Henry, she had

21:25

actually already been planning to marry

21:27

somebody else, Thomas Seymour. They had

21:29

known each other for a while and everything had

21:31

been going sort of a pace. But then when Henry offered

21:34

for her, you know, you always take the king

21:36

over anyone else. But after Henry died,

21:38

she actually goes back to Thomas. So they end

21:40

up getting married, and it's something of a scandal

21:43

because they get married very quickly after

21:45

Henry had died. You're supposed to have a morning period

21:47

of at least a year, particularly because

21:49

you want to make sure that the wife, the widow,

21:52

isn't pregnant with the dead

21:54

monarch's child. And so the fact

21:56

that she gets married within a couple of months

21:59

is really look down upon. People

22:01

are very critical about it, and particularly Mary.

22:03

And this is what's going to break the relationship between Mary

22:05

and Catherine Parr is that this

22:07

is seen as kind of a betrayal of the father, and

22:09

that she's married Thomas Seymour and sort

22:12

of moved on in this way seems very

22:14

unseemly to Mary and others. So

22:16

she's only married to Thomas for about a year

22:19

before having a child and dying before

22:22

she could see him grow up.

22:23

One last question, how

22:25

unusual is this story of Henry the

22:27

eighth and then six wives?

22:30

Is there anything else like it? Can

22:32

you compare him to any other monarchs

22:34

in this regard?

22:35

There really is nothing else like this. Plenty

22:38

of monarchs get married multiple times.

22:40

Plenty of monarchs will have an annulment

22:42

to either have a better marriage that gives

22:44

them better alliances or to get a male heir.

22:47

All of that is true. We have a big a mist

22:49

in Germany, Philip Professa, who has

22:51

two wives. So you know, there are little nuggets

22:53

of this everywhere. Six wives,

22:56

two of whom are executed and

22:59

two of whom have annulments. That's

23:02

really unusual. There is nothing

23:04

quite like that, and I think that that is one of the reasons

23:06

why people at the time were sort

23:08

of shocked by it. The French king is writing

23:10

things like you really need to do better with

23:12

who you're choosing to be your wife. This

23:14

was gossip for the continent just

23:17

as much as it is for us now, and

23:19

I think that that's one of the reasons that it has this

23:21

hold on our imagination, and you have all

23:23

of these movies and TV shows

23:25

and musicals that go

23:27

over it, and it's why it's the main

23:29

thing that he's remembered for, which is

23:31

unfortunate because there's a lot else that was going on

23:34

in his reign. But when you do

23:36

something this kind of out of the

23:38

box and just so different

23:40

and crazy from what everybody else is doing, you

23:42

know it's going to be something that's going to be part of your living

23:44

legacy.

23:46

Amy, thanks so much for this. We just appreciate

23:48

you taking the time to tell us six

23:50

great stories.

23:51

Thanks well, thank you so much for having me on.

23:53

I really appreciate it.

23:57

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