0:21

Welcome to the Only One Mic Podcast called

0:23

Jarrod Brooklyn Gray . Jay Rob is

0:25

back in the building . We got a special

0:27

guest today Dr Rob Eichman

0:29

. Dr Rob is speaking

0:32

with us today about his book when the Hood Comes Off

0:34

Racism , resistance and the Digital Age

0:36

. Dr Eichman , how you doing

0:38

, buddy ?

0:40

Doing well , doing well . Man , I appreciate you having

0:42

me on the show .

0:43

Oh yeah , appreciate you coming on . Appreciate

0:45

you coming on . So I

0:48

was intrigued by the book when

0:50

the Hood Comes Off , racism and Resistance and the Digital

0:52

Age and you know we have a lot

0:54

of books about diversity and equity

0:56

and inclusion and all and

0:58

this is an area that I don't see too many people

1:01

discuss Like we normally used to like

1:03

overt racism , microaggressions , but

1:05

nobody really talks about . You

1:07

know how it works in a digital space and

1:10

so you know you to

1:12

bring this up in a book , man is eye-opening

1:15

to see that somebody

1:17

actually tackles this space . Now

1:19

, before we get into the book , I want

1:21

you to talk to our listeners . Tell

1:23

them about yourself . Tell them you know what's

1:25

your background , what led you to this study ? You

1:28

know . Introduce yourself to our audience .

1:31

Of course , of course , man . My name is Rob Eichman

1:33

. I am born and raised in Chicago

1:36

, currently living in New York

1:38

, you know , still splitting

1:40

sometime in Chicago , man

1:42

. I come from a

1:45

neighborhood that was predominantly black

1:47

and Latino

1:49

, and so I think that my experiences

1:52

with race and racism early on

1:54

were , you

1:56

know , in the neighborhood they

1:58

were less . It was less interpersonal

2:01

racism . I think one of the things I talk about in

2:03

the book was that I

2:05

, the first time I was called to N-word maliciously

2:08

, was online

2:10

right and playing video games online

2:12

. So I think I knew what racism was , but

2:15

it was . You know , it was different than what I

2:17

started to experience once I went to college and whatnot

2:19

. You know , I think I grew

2:21

up hooping . I was a basketball

2:24

player . I , you know , I did

2:26

not take school as seriously when I was

2:28

in high school . I thought that basketball

2:31

was the path that I was going to be taking after

2:34

high school and I didn't even really apply to a whole lot

2:36

of places . I'm going to be a long story man

2:38

. You're asking who I am . So you know

2:40

, stop me . Stop me if this is the shorter

2:42

version .

2:43

Boy , I got to ask you a question , though you know you

2:46

being a Chicago native and splitting your

2:48

time with New York man .

2:54

You know how do you feel about that .

2:55

You're talking to some native New Yorkers , with the exception of J

2:57

Rob , who's you know Philadelphia

2:59

.

3:00

I thought you were going to ask him who he liked the bulls or the

3:02

nicks that

3:05

was coming . Well it all depends .

3:06

Are you in New York City or you ?

3:07

like in Brooklyn Whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa

3:10

.

3:11

I'm in New York . I'm at my office at Columbia right

3:13

now . Okay , all right .

3:14

So all right , here's the hall .

3:15

Oh , okay .

3:16

Shout out , shout out , salute

3:18

.

3:19

Yeah , yeah .

3:21

Salute it up . So what are you ? What are you ? What

3:23

are you next , friend ?

3:25

No , he's a Chicago Bulls fan . No , no , man

3:27

, you got to put where you at .

3:28

It's not where you from . It's where you at .

3:32

I would never .

3:33

I'm just saying .

3:33

Rob , I'm just joking around , because I'm not claiming nothing from

3:35

Philadelphia . No , no , no , shout it out

3:37

.

3:38

Oh , come on , are

3:40

you serious ? You know

3:42

what ?

3:42

I'm going to do that . So I

3:45

stopped being . Of course I grew up a

3:47

Bulls fan , a Mike fan , but

3:49

I stopped being a fan of teams

3:51

. When the Bulls

3:53

in 98 decided not to

3:55

bring everybody back , kind of forced

3:58

MJ into retirement , I

4:00

realized , man , these billionaire owners don't really

4:02

care about the squad , they care about money

4:04

, and I stopped following . You know

4:06

, in essence , I stopped being a fan of teams

4:08

and I was more like I'm a fan of players , right

4:11

, so right . I was like , look , I can be an Iverson fan

4:13

and be from Chicago . We're

4:16

bringing up Philly . I think right now . Man , I'm

4:18

a big I'm a big LeBron fan and so

4:20

and I have no shame in that , I was a LeBron fan

4:22

in Cleveland , miami , la I'd

4:25

like to see him get enough rings

4:27

for there to be a legitimate conversation

4:29

about him versus Mike . I don't think

4:31

, you know , I don't think people will be willing to have that conversation

4:34

unless he gets a couple more .

4:36

I'm starting with that rebound man . It hurt

4:38

us man the last time . Man

4:40

they still they still got the trauma

4:42

yeah we still hurt , know

4:44

that , man , we still hurt , we still hurt , know that .

4:46

But you know , it's good to know that , though , man , it's good

4:48

to know that .

4:51

And hold on . We can't even go into that LeBron Jordan

4:53

thing because it's going to turn a whole

4:55

different conversation . We

4:59

got to stay focused , man .

5:01

Yeah , we got to stay focused . I'm getting squirrel brain right now , rob

5:03

, all right .

5:04

That's right , that's right .

5:05

So listen , man , you were saying that

5:07

you experienced at first . We

5:09

going into your book , man , you experienced the

5:11

first time you was called to N-word

5:14

during . According to

5:16

your book , you were playing like Halo or something with your cousins

5:18

. Am I correct ?

5:19

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

5:21

And so I guess you , being from Chicago

5:23

, you think I'm jump on here now . I'm

5:25

not going to have any problems , as what your

5:27

cousins were saying , like you know , don't jump on

5:30

, because this is what happens . And you , like , I got to see

5:32

this for myself . All right , yeah

5:34

. So when you did that , explain

5:36

to the listeners what was like the first reaction

5:38

you had when somebody actually called

5:40

you now at the N-word in that space .

5:44

You know what ? I couldn't believe it because I

5:46

even I put on my widest voice

5:48

when I put on the headset and

5:50

I was like , hey , what's up , guys ? And

5:53

I was almost trying to disguise . You know

5:55

what I'm saying I put on my widest voice

5:57

and they still were , like all your names

6:00

should be N-word right

6:02

away , and so I couldn't , like it was just

6:04

I was astonished that , you

6:06

know , like , because they told me it happened every time

6:08

they put that , so I just didn't believe it . I was astonished

6:11

that it happened , Like I'm talking about , not

6:13

10 seconds later , not a minute later

6:15

. It happened immediately when

6:17

I thought that I was using a voice . That

6:19

was , that was , it was camouflage in that space

6:22

. You know what I'm saying , they can't see my face , but

6:24

they can hear me , and so , like

6:26

, it blew my mind . I couldn't believe it . But then

6:28

it was also something where , you know , I didn't , I

6:30

wasn't taking the time to reflect on it , I

6:33

was , you know I'm young and I was engaged

6:35

. You know I was . It was a war of words where

6:37

I'm coming right back at them and so , like , you know

6:39

, the game , like we're on the stick

6:41

playing the game , but at the same time we're you know

6:44

we're talking trash to each other , the entire

6:46

game too .

6:47

So you was getting busy . You was getting busy in the game , rob . That's

6:49

what it was . You was getting busy , no we , no , we , no , we're

6:52

getting somebody down real quick . They got mad .

6:54

We lost man , we lost , we

6:56

lost the game We've lost badly and

6:58

as my cousins were like see , you can't even concentrate

7:01

when you get into this , which is why you didn't

7:03

take the headset off so we can really

7:05

play the game .

7:05

Yeah , I feel it .

7:08

Hey , that may not be racism , rob . They

7:10

probably be talking . They're trying to talk you out of your game

7:12

man , that's exactly what I was .

7:16

They knew the potential , where this was about to go . Man

7:18

, you know what I mean .

7:20

Yeah , you know , but so that's an interesting point

7:22

is like do they have to have been KKK

7:24

numbers in order for us to see this man racism ? If

7:27

they were kids just trying to make us mad , would

7:29

that still be racist ? And the way I think about racism

7:31

is that there is a function attached

7:34

to racist ideas , racist

7:36

messages , and the function is to create

7:38

inequality . So even if they're just doing it

7:40

just to mess with you , that's still right

7:42

, like it is still , like

7:44

there's something that is happening because of it . It

7:47

is causing harm to us

7:49

. And right that we know that experiences

7:51

with racism , both in your face , like

7:53

the N word or an act of violence , but

7:55

then also the micro aggressions , the everyday

7:58

little subtle things , that these things have negative

8:00

effects on our health , our mental health

8:02

. You look at the . You know

8:04

why are black folks

8:06

dying sooner than we should be ? Part

8:09

of that is explained by that we're having these experiences

8:11

with racism that cause stress and do

8:13

damage to us over time , and

8:16

so , even if they meant it in a way where

8:18

, hey , I'm just trying to get an advantage in the game , I still consider

8:20

that racism . And I think that we

8:22

never know someone's heart , yeah , yeah

8:24

. Well , we can never judge someone's heart

8:27

. We can never be

8:29

sure that this is coming from a

8:31

place of hate , but I think that the way I

8:33

think about racism is that it doesn't have to come

8:35

from a place of hate in order for it to fulfill

8:37

the function of racism and put

8:40

us in our place . Right , that's what . That's what they're

8:42

, that's what they're trying to do with any

8:44

of that language .

8:45

I know within your studies I found

8:47

something interesting , even when reading a book , is that

8:49

you said that a lot of

8:51

say your classmates , co

8:53

workers . You

8:56

know people you might know in your neighborhood that's

8:58

white that just might have . You

9:00

know these conversations online

9:02

and use these words online , which

9:04

you know is covert but not overtly

9:07

to you when they see you , and the

9:09

justification behind that would be I'm

9:12

not really a racist . You know

9:14

a brother kind of made a we're

9:16

talking before the show and you sound like sometimes

9:18

you might have people who are not

9:20

really racist but as we were just talking

9:22

, you know about the game that maybe

9:24

they're just doing that because they know that is the only

9:27

way that they can really hurt you in that

9:29

space . So whether you are , your politics

9:31

, sports , whatever is , somehow

9:33

always leads back to that , you

9:36

know , because they know that's a way to kind of

9:38

damage the conversation . So

9:40

can you speak more towards that based

9:43

on your study ?

9:45

Yeah , yeah , I would say that that , right when we

9:47

think about what are micro aggressions

9:49

. Micro aggressions are the subtle forms of racism

9:52

that they're not like . They're

9:54

not clear enough for someone to get in trouble

9:56

for saying , right that . They're

9:58

not overt enough for you to be able

10:00

to tell HR and get somebody in trouble , but

10:03

they are hurtful , that they do damage

10:05

to us . The right measures of micro aggressions are associated

10:07

with worse health outcomes , increase

10:10

depression , increase the anxiety , increase stress

10:12

. So when

10:15

we think about these things , what are they ? I think of

10:17

microaggressions as being the scaffolding

10:20

that structural racism

10:23

relies on , right , and so the

10:25

ideas , the stereotypes

10:28

that are behind these type of subtle

10:30

experiences are the justifications

10:33

for how they keep us in our place , for

10:35

how they decide oh , we are not worthy

10:37

of that job . Oh , this man is

10:39

dangerous , so we need to stop

10:41

him . These

10:44

actions that we would see as being more

10:46

overt and more directly

10:49

harmful are all supported by

10:51

the ideas that are behind these more

10:53

subtle microaggressions . So if somebody is

10:55

choosing to use this

10:58

subtle racist idea for

11:00

a specific purpose that is not racist

11:02

in your mind , they're still drawing

11:04

on these myths and these ideas

11:06

that are used to justify why

11:09

we're in our place now . Does

11:12

that make ?

11:12

sense .

11:12

So , even if it comes from , even if it's unconscious

11:14

on their part , even if it doesn't come from

11:17

a place of hate on their part , it

11:19

is still doing damage to us . It does

11:21

damage to the culture , it does damage to you know what I'm

11:23

saying our lives , and it

11:25

really it feeds the narrative

11:28

that why don't we

11:30

have equal outcomes in education

11:32

? Why don't we have ? Why

11:34

is we have unequal

11:36

wealth ? It's because of things about

11:38

us . So all of these little subtle microaggressions

11:41

feed the narrative that we deserve

11:43

where we are now , as opposed

11:45

to a counter narrative

11:48

of understanding that , you know , oppression

11:50

was right . This is the system that was designed

11:53

in order to keep us from having full

11:55

access to resources and education

11:58

and employment and health care and etc .

12:01

Well , I also believe that

12:03

you know it has to be something wrong

12:05

with you upstairs , whether you're joking or

12:07

not , when you just come out and blast

12:10

out some sort of racial epithet . You know what I mean . So

12:12

you know , I don't know how you . If you

12:14

feel that same way , it's something in you , because

12:17

you know I mean especially with the N word . You

12:19

know , just to say the N word out of your

12:21

mouth , it has to be something wrong with

12:23

the N you because the word is so horrible that

12:25

you know I mean it's a white person

12:27

. You have to rethink it before it even comes out of your mouth

12:29

. You know what I mean and I know me personally

12:31

, like I never really had a racist

12:33

bone in my body . But you

12:36

know , just to come out and just say some of the racist

12:38

words that you would say to a different ethnic group

12:40

or something like that , it's it got

12:42

to be something loose upstairs

12:44

. You know that's how I feel . You know maybe

12:46

other people feel different .

12:49

Yeah , yeah , you know , I think that , like , I

12:51

think that that is a fair way of thinking about racism

12:53

as being a sickness , and it rightly

12:55

that it's something that you

12:58

know that represents

13:02

something being broken in the way that you think

13:04

about humanity . So

13:06

I think that that's real . At the same time , it's

13:08

scary that it's pretty normal , right

13:11

, and it's pretty normal for people

13:13

to have racist ideas in

13:15

society . It's not just folks who have

13:17

a screw loose that they're right . You can have a

13:20

well meaning , good person who wants to take care

13:22

of their family , but they still feel like

13:24

I don't want any black people living in my neighborhood

13:26

. They still feel like no , no , don't

13:28

all lives matter , I don't want to hear about police

13:31

violence . Police are good , right , and so that even

13:33

if they don't have this , this screw

13:35

loose where they're willing to walk down the street and call

13:37

people to inward everywhere they go , that they

13:39

are still have a lease that

13:42

you know that are not in support

13:44

of black lives , you know . You

13:47

know being being for . They're not in support of us being freed

13:49

out , of support of us breathing right .

13:51

Yeah , another thing I think they should do with , like that online

13:54

game and it's like almost like Facebook . Like I think

13:56

you should go to gaming jail , just

13:58

like how you go to Facebook jail if you put something

14:00

crazy up for a little while or something like that

14:02

. You know , because it has to be some sort

14:04

of like provisions put on , especially for the children

14:06

.

14:07

Like , I'm not a gamer , but is there

14:09

any type of regulation that set within

14:12

?

14:12

the game . They had little things , but

14:14

but they don't really put you , you know . I

14:16

mean , it's not really much to it at all .

14:18

It's like a way to get around it if you do shut you down

14:20

.

14:20

So you know what . But there are regulations now

14:23

. So the story that I was telling this was back in

14:25

. You know , this is back in the day before

14:27

online gaming was as big as it was now

14:29

. Right , so this is maybe 2005

14:33

. Right , and so

14:35

this is a long , long time ago . This is back

14:37

when my college campus we could not even

14:39

get internet online . Right , right

14:41

, and not excuse me , I take that back . No , we

14:43

could get internet . We could not play video games online

14:46

. We get right that gaming

14:48

consoles could not connect to the internet , versus

14:50

now you can game online and get cell phone . So

14:52

it was a different day and age . Nowadays there is

14:54

, if someone reports you for racist

14:57

, you know language and on most gaming platforms

14:59

there are some consequences built

15:01

in where you could get banned for a couple of weeks

15:03

to a lifetime If it's something repeated

15:06

. There's actually a time one

15:08

of my one of my homies , who his

15:11

his gamer tag is the black Batman , and

15:14

he invited me to play with some of his friends online

15:16

where I was playing Call of Duty and

15:18

you know he and I had met . I was coaching

15:20

my kids in soccer and his kid was on the

15:23

team and , like he mentioned that he plays . I was like

15:25

, oh , I play too . Like , maybe you know , so we're

15:27

playing online for the first time and all his

15:29

friends were these Southern white dudes . And

15:32

I'm just like man , what is going on

15:34

? And , right , I made an assumption that that

15:36

meant that , right , like this is where some of the racism

15:38

was coming from . So , right , like , yeah , that's bad on me

15:40

. Is I made an assumption based on on their

15:42

voices that they're about to be racist . I'm like bro , who

15:44

are you got us playing with ? And then

15:46

we're playing a game and someone in the lobby

15:48

and the other team starts saying , like

15:50

they hear us talking and they start , you know , inward

15:52

this and word that . And the guy

15:55

, the white guy who was driving you know

15:57

the game , quit us out of the game

15:59

. And he's like hey , I got

16:01

that guy's username . His username was blah blah

16:03

, blah . So everybody reported . And

16:06

so then eight people , including

16:08

six white dudes with Southern

16:10

accents , and then me and my homie

16:13

, who was also in Chicago , reported

16:15

this person for the language that he was using , and

16:17

that was something that they did every time they

16:19

played . Is that anytime they ran up against somebody like

16:21

that , they quit the game , but they , you

16:23

know , they remembered his username and then and

16:25

then reported that person . So , at the right , and

16:27

I think , if you get eight people reporting you , 10

16:30

people reporting you , then eventually you write that

16:32

the Xbox or PlayStation is going to

16:34

say , ok , you got to take a break because

16:36

of , you know , because of this violation . Do

16:38

people find ways around it ? Yes , you

16:40

know what I'm saying . Is it still going to happen ? Yes , but it

16:42

is not as everywhere in

16:44

online gaming as it used to be where it used to

16:46

be , like you know literally every

16:49

game that right there there was a

16:51

lot worse than it is now .

16:52

When you said that when you first started gaming

16:54

and you went into the room with these guys

16:57

, you had kind of changed your tone

16:59

. Do you think that that

17:02

is a bigger problem than the over

17:04

racism ? Is the fact that we tone

17:06

ourselves down in order to be appeasing

17:09

to to them Like a cold switch ?

17:12

Yeah , yeah , you know , man

17:14

, I do . I do

17:16

think that that is a problem and I think

17:19

that that is something that we have felt

17:21

like we had to do to succeed for a long time . I

17:24

am getting the sense that

17:26

I feel like

17:29

that some of us are more comfortable

17:31

moving around

17:33

in corporate spaces now , being

17:35

ourselves in what seemed

17:37

to me to be the norm 20 years ago , and

17:40

maybe it's cause I'm in a different place now , right , but

17:43

I remember , you know , when I was in grad

17:46

school , right , in that moment , it was more like

17:48

I'm about to trick these guys , like if they

17:50

really are racist to everyone . Yeah

17:52

, I'm about to see , you know , I wanted

17:54

to . You know

17:57

, like I'm a kid and I'm

17:59

trying to see what is like

18:01

, what is the truth of what happens in these rooms online

18:03

, right , right , right , I think

18:05

that I know that for myself

18:07

. When I entered grad school , I was very concerned

18:10

with , you know , I

18:12

was worried about coming

18:15

across the right way . I would tuck

18:17

my shirt in you know what I'm saying Like

18:20

I wanted . I was worried about

18:23

people feeling like I fulfilled the

18:25

stereotype , I think

18:28

, and it was something that was , you know , that weighed

18:30

on me , and I think that you know feeling

18:32

that way , I think that that takes

18:34

emotional energy that we could direct someplace else

18:37

, and the reality that that is like that is

18:39

another way that

18:41

the knowledge of racism can be debilitating

18:44

is if you start changing who you are

18:46

in order to because you anticipate them thinking

18:48

about you a certain way . You know that

18:50

, like that is something that can be harmful . I

18:53

won't say who this was , but I talked with a mentor

18:55

about this feeling and the right , someone

18:57

who's a older black man and

19:00

he told me he said he

19:03

gave me a quote from a

19:05

Native American about being behind

19:08

enemy lines and

19:10

he said what I'm in these spaces , it's like

19:12

being behind enemy lines and

19:14

so the people who I respect I'm very

19:16

concerned about them respecting me , everybody

19:18

else , right and just

19:21

this idea of releasing yourself

19:23

from these expectations and from needing to

19:25

please everybody and instead , right , like

19:28

you wanna be a person of integrity , you

19:31

wanna do good work , you wanna think critically

19:33

, but you are not going to be changing

19:36

who you are in order to please

19:39

someone who , right . If they have a problem

19:41

with how you talk or how you dress

19:43

, that means they have a deeper problem

19:45

than you and that's not something

19:47

that is for you to fix , but

19:51

by your presentation .

19:53

But the funny thing about that is , I think we all do that

19:55

, just not even thinking about it . You know what I mean

19:57

.

19:57

Like you know as many times as you know I'm better than you .

20:00

Well , a white person comes into the office and they'll

20:02

say , hi , audrey . And you be like hey , how are you doing ? You be like I don't

20:04

even talk , like that , like

20:07

how did I start talking like that ?

20:10

That's the sad part . Yeah , you know , but

20:12

we do well Because on the other side

20:14

, caucasian

20:17

could say that they say racist

20:19

things around certain people just cause

20:21

it just comes out , because

20:23

they're in that environment .

20:25

I'm glad you actually brought that up , jay , because I was

20:27

as reading the book . You

20:30

were , rob . We're talking about a

20:32

situation that you had with your

20:34

dorm mates when you guys were playing

20:36

a game . I guess you was playing the Tupac song

20:38

or whatever . You sung the song

20:41

. You know , we have portion in the song

20:43

where the N word comes up and

20:45

I guess we all to some degree , you know

20:47

, have done this where it's like you just cut that

20:49

out , like you wrapping along with the song

20:51

. Let's see how far you gonna go with it in

20:54

my presence . You know what I mean , and so

20:56

I say all that to say this do

20:58

you think that , with media and

21:01

everything that's presented to everybody

21:03

Cause if you really look at things like hip hop as

21:05

a whole , that has kind of shaped

21:07

the way that the world thinks ? That's why it's comfortable now

21:09

for a person to come to the office

21:11

and probably not wear a suit or things of that nature

21:13

Do you think that the

21:17

stereotypes that we may have when you

21:19

look at certain artists , certain

21:21

movies or things like that kind of

21:23

shapes that narrative of making it comfortable

21:25

for , you

21:27

know , caucasians or anybody of any other race

21:30

to use the N word or

21:32

to kind of express themselves in that manner

21:35

.

21:37

Man . So there are two things in there , right

21:39

? So one is comfort level using the N

21:41

word , and I do

21:43

think so . I think that some white folks feel ownership

21:45

of the word because of the music that

21:47

they love . You know

21:49

, I once checked somebody for using the N word when he

21:51

was rapping some Jay-Z and he was like I

21:54

would never . I would never

21:56

censor myself and disrespect Jay-Z

21:58

like that . Are you joking ?

22:00

You don't say like I hear you .

22:02

How dare ?

22:03

you . You're militant about it .

22:05

You're militant about it .

22:06

Wow .

22:07

Yeah , yeah , right . And so it's like

22:09

, yes , I do think that people feel a license

22:12

to do that and that's something right . I

22:14

talk about Kendrick and Vince Staples later

22:17

on in chapter six , where I'm going

22:19

into right , Like telling a story

22:21

of seeing Kendrick concerts

22:23

for everybody , right , Like the song where

22:26

he is like where you from

22:28

right , and he says it four or five times

22:30

and 10 seconds , and just thousands of people

22:32

in the crowd saying it with them and feeling like

22:34

they have ownership of that term and like what

22:36

does that mean for the artists ? What does that mean for us

22:38

to be in a crowd when something like that is happening

22:41

? So , yes , I do think so , and I also

22:43

imagine that it has impacted our

22:47

comfort level being ourselves , because

22:49

, as hip hop is going mainstream , some

22:52

terminology that

22:55

used to be a urban

22:57

or a hip hop or a black way

22:59

of speaking or being has

23:02

become mainstream . That it's almost like like

23:05

people don't remember where it came from , Right

23:07

, Like I hear white folks be

23:09

like oh , that's what's up . And immediately on

23:11

Zoom , and I just like it just makes me like what

23:13

? What am I ? You know where did this come

23:16

from ? Or even you know it's funny because I think

23:18

my kids will come and they'll have a new

23:20

, some new slang , but

23:22

they're get . I'm like , where'd you hear that from ? And they're

23:24

hearing it from Fortnite streamers . You

23:26

know what I'm saying , and so it's like it's coming from

23:29

the strangest places . So , absolutely

23:31

, I think that I think the hip hop going mainstream

23:33

has made certain things

23:36

that used to be seen as being it was

23:38

too black to be done in the office . It's now like

23:40

people forgot that this is black

23:42

and it's just a little bit

23:44

of our kind of , you know , pop music

23:47

culture . So , absolutely

23:49

, absolutely .

23:50

Yeah , cause I say that ? Because I mean , even though I didn't

23:52

watch it the whole thing

23:54

or anything , but I saw clips of the BET

23:56

Awards . Yeah , yeah , yeah

23:58

, brother . So it's like you know , and

24:01

the biggest consumers are actually

24:04

white folks that buy these albums and things of

24:06

that nature , and it's like it

24:08

made me think that the comfortability of it

24:10

and the stereotypes that you see and

24:12

how we kind of carry ourself and these are actually

24:15

people with money , you know . So it's like

24:17

, if you carry yourself a certain way and all you're

24:19

a filmmaker , right , what

24:22

do you think is the responsibility of

24:25

a filmmaker , an artist , actor

24:28

? You know that the

24:30

responsibilities , or I would say more

24:32

African-American actor

24:34

, filmmaker , artist , to

24:37

kind of show your people in a light that

24:39

you know we won't be stereotyped and

24:41

we won't make it comfortable for

24:43

those that consume this that's not us to

24:46

kind of regurgitate what we're showing them .

24:48

That's a great question . I do think that the

24:50

black artists have a responsibility . I don't

24:52

necessarily think that the responsibility

24:55

is to portray us in

24:58

a certain way . Right ? There's an example

25:00

this is precious . And then

25:02

the movie pressure , right , like you think about how horrible

25:04

of an image the movie precious

25:07

is . And you had people black folks after

25:09

that movie came out saying like man

25:11

, this is terrible for us . The

25:13

right black filmmaker should not have allowed this to happen

25:16

because it makes us all look bad

25:18

. I think the reality is , if

25:20

someone goes into precious

25:23

and leaves the theater thinking

25:25

, oh , black people are bad because

25:27

of this movie , this is what black parents

25:29

look like , this is what black culture looks like , this

25:31

is why they are struggling

25:34

in life . That means that they

25:36

were racist before they went into that movie , right

25:39

? So is it the filmmakers responsibility

25:41

to put

25:44

on a , you know , have a

25:46

positive representation so that this racist

25:48

doesn't have another excuse for their racism

25:50

? And I think that that can

25:53

be , you know , like we were

25:55

talking earlier about , like , protecting your energy

25:57

and how much of your energy can be deployed

26:00

to block what you

26:02

think racists are going to think about you . And

26:04

I think this is an example of like for

26:07

a filmmaker who is an artist , is

26:10

what they make . Do they need to change

26:12

what they make because they're scared of how

26:14

racists are going to consume it ? And

26:16

the reality is racists are going to find reasons to

26:18

be racist , no matter what . There's something broken

26:20

in this person's mind to make them think precious

26:23

means . All black people are this way

26:25

and so that is not for the . I

26:27

don't think that's the filmmakers responsibility to

26:30

not create characters Right

26:33

, because right there , because the right , there's a purpose , there's

26:35

a message in stories

26:37

, and a lot of times the best art

26:39

showcases broken people and

26:41

the way that they navigate trials

26:44

. Right . And so if you want

26:46

to say , oh , just positive representation of black

26:48

folks , then you're going to have very boring

26:50

films . If you got all positive

26:53

characters there's no one broken , there's

26:55

nothing right , there are no unfortunate circumstances

26:57

then it's going to end at red light Where's the drama ? Right

27:00

? So I think that that could take away from the art to

27:02

have to be , to feel like you have to please

27:05

white folks in that way . And you

27:08

know , I would love to see some black films on black

27:10

art . That is not made for white

27:12

folks , that is made for us . So I'm

27:14

more interested in what are they trying to say to

27:16

our community ? What are they trying to say about society

27:19

versus ? What are they trying to say so

27:21

that the you know , the conservatives don't

27:23

have much to talk about on the podcast

27:26

, about that belief .

27:27

Right . So the only problem with the precious

27:29

though , I remember , just like somebody

27:32

just reading , you know , telling me what it was about

27:34

, and I was like , wait a minute , that's too much . You

27:36

know what I mean , don't get me wrong , I hear what you're saying . I

27:39

do got that fine line . I can enjoy good

27:41

times and then I can enjoy the Cosby show

27:43

, you know , because it's too different . You

27:45

know , one is more like poverty , the other one is more about

27:47

success of you know , african-american . So

27:49

I can enjoy the fine line . But when

27:51

I remember somebody was just explaining that , I

27:54

thought at that time I thought that the people

27:56

that put it together I thought was careless . But

27:58

that's me , that's my personal opinion , you

28:00

know . I don't know how you guys feel about that .

28:03

Well , again , it's the fine line , because , like I , look at

28:05

a lot of narratives

28:08

that Hollywood push out and we talked about this on the

28:10

previous show is that you'll

28:13

see a slew of slave movies , a slew

28:15

of slave TV

28:17

series , things like that , and

28:19

that's that

28:21

you know . they claim his history , of course

28:24

, is you know not accurate history

28:26

, but it's still put out , however , the

28:28

contributions that many African-Americans

28:31

have made to the world

28:33

in terms of inventions . You

28:35

know , thoughts , ideas , things of that

28:37

nature , how they guided

28:39

certain people's policies and

28:43

the struggles that you know during

28:45

the civil .

28:46

How do they claim certain people out

28:48

of the plague ?

28:50

Right . So it's like when

28:52

you look at all of those like where's that representation

28:54

at , where are those movies

28:57

at ? I remember , when he was alive , dick

28:59

Gregory has said one time he said

29:01

that a person on the inside

29:03

pretty much told him that you know , I

29:05

think it was after Django came out like it's going to be

29:07

a slew of these type of movies coming up within

29:10

the industry . You know it's going to be a slew of these

29:13

you know movies coming out . He asked the question why do you

29:15

think that is ? You know

29:17

so .

29:18

And I think the another thing I think we discussed this on a previous

29:21

show where it always , like when they have these shows

29:23

, I mean again , like he said , it's the flying

29:25

line . Artistry

29:27

and you know , you know

29:29

trying to , you know , make a buck

29:31

, I guess . But when we look

29:33

at this stuff , man , it's just like what

29:36

is it ? What's the purpose of it ? Like you know , I

29:38

mean , like sometimes it's just like it's too much , it's overkill

29:40

and , like you know , like slavery movies and

29:42

stuff like that . And I'm like , like you

29:44

just said , man , I'll give you , you know , it's funny

29:46

about that . Forget about the documentaries

29:49

and all the you know wonderful movies . Let's say , we want to create

29:51

Nat turning up . There's a lot of young brothers

29:53

, man , who are actually doing stuff , just like on YouTube

29:56

, just putting little cameras , stuff together

29:58

, whatever , and they actually have good stories

30:00

. They just don't have the money behind them

30:02

to put out a good product . You know what I mean . But

30:05

they're actually doing something with this camera alone and you be like , wow

30:07

, this is a great story . He actually put some money

30:09

behind this brother . You know , it might have had something

30:11

good . You know , and I think that's what happens is , I

30:14

don't know , maybe it's the gatekeepers or

30:16

they just keep putting money in the same people's hand

30:19

to make the same similar films . I

30:21

think you know .

30:23

I was saying all I had to kind of bring your home is basically

30:25

, like I said , gatekeepers . These are people

30:27

who are sitting in these corporate offices

30:29

that make these decisions , you know , and

30:31

in most cases they're not us , If

30:34

you get what I'm saying , Rob . So

30:36

that's what I was kind of getting at like the imagery

30:39

of it all . You know , is there any way , like

30:41

within that whole scope , to change that

30:43

narrative ? But again , like you say

30:45

, it's a fine line between how

30:47

we present ourselves .

30:48

No only thing I was going to say is

30:51

just reiterate the fact that how people

30:53

learn , they learn through visuals . So

30:55

when these images are being presented , they're

30:57

being presented in a manner to

30:59

where it's supposed . Some of them are supposed to

31:01

keep us subdued and to feel

31:03

that that less than

31:06

that , less than thing Now , as far as

31:08

precious I actually never saw it myself but

31:10

the simple fact that

31:12

it has that type of reaction

31:15

through the African-American

31:17

community , I feel like it did its

31:19

job , because it's

31:21

a , it's a reality check for some of us

31:23

. So we can actually see , like you know

31:25

what , the way the way

31:27

that cousin , cousin , cousin

31:29

Stephanie was raised was messed up and that's

31:32

the reason why she messed up . And you know

31:34

, like somebody could have stepped in but they

31:36

didn't , they just let it go on . You know what I

31:38

mean . Like this , this is what happens in that community . This

31:40

is why this person is damaged . Like

31:42

you know , the next door neighbor we know

31:45

, we know that she damaged because of this

31:47

. This is what's going on we see in these accurate

31:49

accounts and I think it's a beautiful thing , it's more

31:51

diversity .

31:52

Yeah , okay , that's good . That's why I so

31:54

you know what you all thought about it , man , because , again , when

31:57

I heard the you know the layout of

31:59

it , I was like I know , thanks . But yeah , you

32:01

know , it's a good way of looking at it .

32:03

You know , so I am . I feel

32:05

like I take here for most stuff . For Yassine

32:07

Bay , where he you know as

32:10

a someone that has been labeled a conscious

32:12

rapper , right , but he

32:14

has resisted a label conscious rapper

32:16

and resisted this differences

32:18

made between conscious rap or gangster rap

32:20

, and the way he'll say it . He's

32:22

like look , we're all making black music and I'm

32:25

tired of this . You know this fake

32:27

, false distinction between these

32:29

types of music . The problem is

32:31

that they're the labels are only pushing

32:33

one type . And he has right

32:35

. He's like I have no problem with the

32:37

gangster rapper . Rappers want to drag rapper about drug

32:40

dealing . I have no problem with that . I have no problem with party

32:42

rap . But when you're only hearing one type

32:44

of music on the radio and you're not

32:46

showing the diversity of black art that exists

32:48

, that is what's problematic , right ? Not that

32:50

this is the type of one of the types of black

32:52

art , but that you are limiting it to that

32:55

type of black art . So the part of what I hear you saying

32:57

is that there are more stories to be told

32:59

. But when you think about the type of roles

33:01

that black actors get , if it right

33:03

, like who is it

33:05

right ? Forgivin'

33:08

her name , the woman who was in the maid or

33:11

the help .

33:11

Oh , violet , davis Violet .

33:13

Davis , yeah , violet Davis . It

33:16

right , George , this idea that , like , if you are

33:19

, like , there's some black woman who every

33:21

role they get is as a serving woman , and

33:24

why aren't there more roles for this great

33:26

actor , right ? So I do think that that is

33:28

a problem . That is right , and that

33:30

may not be a black artist

33:32

problem , but that is a gatekeeper

33:34

problem of what of the types

33:37

of art that are being made are

33:40

able to get financial support to

33:42

actually be seen , and so I do

33:45

. I do see that as an issue , but I don't see

33:47

that as an issue that is located in a black artist

33:49

who's making a slate move , because , right , you know , I

33:51

think that they're right . Like you

33:53

know , you may have a black artist who wants to tell

33:56

an important story . The problem

33:58

is is if you're 90% right

34:00

, if you're 10 times more likely to get published

34:03

when you write that movie versus when you write

34:05

the you know the

34:08

revolution and Haiti move , right , right

34:10

.

34:12

So , to bring it back to the digital space , do

34:14

you think that which I'm pretty sure

34:16

you know it was Trump's

34:19

election during

34:21

that time , and you

34:23

know his tweet storms and rallying

34:25

up his base , which led to the whole January

34:27

16 , and all that

34:30

played a big part in the digital space

34:32

. So give me your take on that

34:34

, cause I know you mentioned it in the book as well .

34:38

Yeah , yeah , right , I

34:40

think that you know Trump . Trump gained popularity

34:42

on Twitter and I think that his

34:45

style has been more brash

34:47

, more rash when it when it comes

34:49

to talking about race or

34:51

gender or sexuality , that

34:53

those are , these are things . This is the style

34:56

of discourse that we've

34:58

come to associate with online

35:00

communication , and I think that , right

35:03

, that I definitely think that you

35:05

know space is online , providing

35:07

, you know , a safe place for people to

35:09

be a little bit more open with their

35:11

, you know , attitude

35:13

. You know led to you

35:16

know people feeling like this is a

35:18

community and where we are trying to be

35:20

in silence , and I think Trump spoke to that community

35:22

. I think Trump , you know , took

35:24

part in this . I think that his campaign

35:26

speeches sounded like tweets

35:28

, right , and that , like it did not

35:30

sound right . I think that that he

35:32

has very few policies that are

35:34

not normal among conservatives

35:37

, but he didn't sound how conservative politicians

35:39

sound . This is not how they typically

35:41

talk about things , and so , absolutely

35:43

, I think that social media

35:45

played a role there in providing space

35:48

and voice for folks

35:50

whose you know , whose views we

35:53

would not see as being mainstream , and I think that

35:55

it's kind of pushed the norm a little bit

35:57

where now we are . You know

35:59

when I say we , society seems to

36:02

be a little bit more accepting

36:04

of slightly

36:06

more overtly racist things

36:08

than they were . You know

36:10

pre-Trump and I you look at the changes from

36:13

the , you know from the Supreme Court , to

36:15

you know them trying to ban critical

36:17

race theory or you know anything

36:19

that has to do with race and diversity , and

36:21

schools at states across the country , certain

36:25

states across the country where I think that these are

36:27

things that absolutely I

36:29

think the technology had an impact on

36:31

people developing these , these

36:33

rhetorics and and , and you

36:35

know , kind of building communities around

36:39

folks who who are tired of the of

36:41

you know , hearing us challenge racism .

36:43

So what do you think is what

36:45

will be ? Just just your take on it , like

36:47

you have Elon Musk with the

36:50

Twitter you have now it was a Zuckerberg

36:52

hash thread and you know , I

36:54

don't know who owns , like Tik Tok and all the stuff

36:56

like that . But what would

36:58

be a good way if you , rob

37:00

, had to do it like to kind of regulate

37:03

this stuff but still giving people

37:05

the space to have free speech

37:07

.

37:09

Whoo , that's tough man . I you know

37:11

I'm on

37:14

the side . That's like answering

37:16

the world peace .

37:16

I said I was about to say that's like answering world

37:19

peace , you know , like trying

37:21

to put together , you

37:24

know , just kumbaya , the world . You know

37:26

what I mean . That's impossible , man . That's our

37:28

question .

37:29

Yeah , it is . It's hard and I'm a little bit

37:31

torn , I'll be honest , because part

37:34

of me feels like right , like one of the things I talk

37:37

about in the book is that racism is typically

37:39

masked right Where's a mask

37:41

. That means that most people can't

37:43

recognize the people who don't experience it personally , people

37:46

who don't study it , people who aren't activists

37:48

is that they have a hard time understanding

37:50

what racism looks like when it hides

37:52

behind friendly interaction . And one

37:54

thing that happens online is that racism is unmasked

37:57

right . That's why the book is called when the Hood Comes Off

37:59

and now you can see racism's face

38:01

. And I think that when you see more

38:03

overt expressions of racism online

38:05

, people become convinced . Right

38:07

, there are a lot of people who really believe that racism

38:10

is a problem . That's behind us . And when you see

38:12

a video , when you see messages toxic

38:14

messages online , then people can become

38:16

convinced like oh wow , I thought that we were done with

38:18

this , but maybe we're not . And I think that the more

38:20

people who we can convince and we can show

38:23

this is what racism looks like recognize

38:25

that next time you see it , the more people we're

38:27

going to be able to recruit to the anti-racist bandwagon

38:30

side of things like , help us now

38:32

, now that you recognize that now , help us get

38:34

free .

38:35

Is there like some sort of clinical statistics

38:37

on how this is affecting children and

38:39

you know people on a daily basis

38:41

, but like this meaning

38:43

.

38:43

Racism on online . Yeah , yeah .

38:46

Oh yeah , yeah , there are . Yeah , that

38:48

online racism increases depression

38:51

and anxiety , and I

38:53

think you know there are studies that are showing that something like

38:55

80% of kids report having

38:58

seen racism online in the past

39:00

year , and so something that is

39:03

everywhere that folks are being exposed

39:05

to . You know in

39:07

my own survey that we right

39:09

that we found very similar results

39:11

of online and in-person racism

39:14

, that we've known for a long time that experiencing

39:16

racism in person hurts your

39:18

health , and now we know that online racism

39:20

hurts your health too , and so absolutely we

39:22

know that this is having a negative effect on

39:25

folks , and one of the things that

39:29

I bring up is that we , like

39:31

black folks , socialize their kids . We teach

39:33

our kids to expect racism , but

39:36

what kind of racism do we teach them to expect

39:38

? And I think that there was a moment

39:40

where parents were

39:42

not aware of the overt

39:45

racism that was happening through

39:47

technology , where kids are being

39:50

taught about okay , this is how you interact with

39:52

the police , this is what your teachers may

39:54

think , so I want you to behave this way , but

39:56

we were not preparing kids for an

39:58

online . They're going to call you the N-word

40:01

, and so be prepared for when that comes

40:03

, and so I think that this is changing the way

40:05

that we think about it . Like , what is it that we need to prepare

40:07

kids for Right ? Like online spaces

40:10

are largely unmoderated , and

40:12

so if this is not a moderated

40:14

space and the parents don't got the password , then they'll know what

40:17

that space is , and that means

40:19

that there are kids who are navigating these things on

40:21

their own , and that's something that we

40:23

got to be ready for . So

40:26

, yes , there is a whole host of research about

40:29

those effects . So

40:33

I guess , to go back to the question , for

40:35

me , I believe

40:37

that seeing the

40:39

truth of how people think about racism

40:42

will ultimately push

40:44

the scales Right

40:47

, because I

40:50

think that the people who are who

40:53

I think that a

40:55

lot of people legitimately don't think that racism

40:58

is a big deal , and the more that they're able

41:00

to see the racism is a big deal , I think that they will

41:02

support anti-racist policies . Maybe

41:06

that's an overly hopeful way of

41:08

thinking about that . But that right there ? Yeah

41:10

, it is , but that is what I think , right

41:12

, I think look at the civil rights movement and

41:15

the organizers . They're like we need to get this on TV

41:18

. We need the world to see what

41:20

they're doing with the dogs and the hoses , because

41:22

if they saw how ugly this was

41:24

, they would not support this . They

41:27

would say , oh , this is not American , so they were

41:29

intentional . This is when the media

41:31

gatekeepers deciding what

41:33

made the news black organizers

41:36

were intentional about . How are we going

41:38

to convince the newspapers

41:40

to put this on TV ? Because

41:46

, if we can , that's how we're going to change attitudes

41:48

and , in part , that worked and

41:50

that these images of violence against

41:52

black folks went around the world and it was embarrassing

41:54

. Russ is like dang , y'all are supposed

41:56

to be the land of the free , but this is how you're treating your citizens

41:59

. And that embarrassed America to the point

42:01

like all right , we're going to have to make

42:03

some changes legally in order to make

42:05

sure this doesn't continue to happen . So I believe

42:07

that the same thing can happen now , where the more

42:10

racism is exposed , the more people

42:12

will fight against it . But

42:15

I also know that racism

42:17

this is part of me is it believes that like look man

42:20

, let them air out their nastiness

42:22

and then , once we see it now

42:24

, let's name them and let there be consequences

42:27

for those actions . On the other side

42:29

of things and this is where I think I have to blend is

42:31

that those things this online

42:33

does harm . It

42:35

is actually hurting people's lives . It

42:38

is actually going

42:40

to make folks die early . So I think that there

42:42

has to be moderation . I think the hate speech

42:44

should be moderated . I don't think that freedom

42:46

of speech refers to threats

42:49

and hate . That's

42:53

not what was meant when we talk about freedom of speech

42:55

, and so I do think that there needs

42:57

to be content moderation . I

43:01

think that anonymity on

43:04

social media so that people

43:06

control is a problem . I

43:08

think that having creating bots that can be

43:11

racist or spread false misinformation is

43:13

a problem , but the rest of the problem isn't just limited

43:16

to racist who say the n-word

43:18

. It's also the racist who

43:20

are creating fake accounts pretending

43:22

to be a black woman to spread misinformation

43:24

in our communities , and so I think that

43:27

we need a lot more robust moderation

43:29

, and this is something that takes an investment

43:31

, and when you have a capitalist

43:34

organization where they're about the bottom line

43:36

, why do they care about those things we

43:38

look at . What do Elon do ? Elon fired

43:40

thousands of people whose job it was to do

43:42

content moderation Because

43:44

he's worried about making money . He's not worried about making

43:47

this a safe place or making this a moral

43:49

place , so I'd say absolutely

43:51

that thing . I'll be back on the side of things

43:53

, of

43:56

thinking about wanting

43:58

this to be a place for discourse

44:00

, for free discourse , but

44:03

not a place for hate , and that's

44:05

something that I don't know that Twitter and Jack

44:07

Dorsey were perfect , but I do know that

44:09

Jack Dorsey was reaching out

44:11

to black activists to ask them what

44:13

they needed in order for Twitter to be a better

44:16

tool for them sharing

44:18

news about their activism , and I

44:20

think that that is a huge difference from what Elon

44:22

is doing now , and

44:27

so that is what I would like to see from

44:29

social media is this being a place where

44:32

the traditional gatekeepers of knowledge

44:34

and information do not have the power to

44:36

stop us from sharing truth , from sharing

44:39

counter narratives , from sharing information

44:41

about racism and right right , basically

44:43

giving you the information that Florida does not want students

44:45

to have . Right , the one you have

44:47

right . They're trying to keep the knowledge from the people

44:49

, and I think social media should be a place where people

44:51

can get the knowledge , and not just the knowledge

44:53

that powerful gatekeepers decide

44:55

we should be allowed to have .

44:57

Right , right Now , also

44:59

in a digital space . I know we're talking

45:01

about like a lot online , but some

45:04

may even say the biggest

45:06

form of racism is like running

45:09

people's credit , things of that

45:11

nature that those are . The

45:13

computer pretty much dictates whether

45:16

you have this or not , which can deny you a lot of different things

45:18

. You know I mean . What

45:20

do you think about that ? You hear a lot of people's will

45:23

probably say that I mean within

45:25

our circles , whereas outside , you

45:28

know , a lot of banks want to

45:30

admit to this , but they are getting caught now . You

45:32

know doing things . That is nature . What do

45:34

you think about that ?

45:37

Yeah yeah , you know .

45:39

I do think that that a lot

45:42

of kind

45:44

of banking and financial practices are

45:46

racist . Even

45:48

you know , even like you know things that you

45:50

know . I have a friend who

45:53

studied currency

45:55

exchanges right check cash in places

45:57

, and then you know the

45:59

fees that poor black folks are paying

46:02

in order to get their check a few days earlier because

46:04

they need it . They're taking advantage of folks

46:06

who are the most disadvantaged in society , who

46:09

are so desperate for the money this week that

46:11

they're willing to lose 20% of it

46:13

, you know , because they can't wait

46:15

until next week . So I think that

46:17

there are lots of things that are set up to take

46:19

advantage of us . We're not only given

46:21

less , but we got more people who are trying

46:23

to take from what it is

46:26

that we have , and

46:28

I think that there are lots of ways that research

46:30

has been shown how the algorithms

46:33

and the formulas are . You

46:35

know things that disadvantage

46:37

us . So , from you know research

46:39

. 75 years ago on redlining

46:42

and knowing that there were right there drawing

46:44

lines around our neighborhood , decided not to give us

46:46

loans . And then now , right

46:48

, figuring out that there are algorithms that are biased

46:50

against us and the right . These are things that happen on

46:52

some social media accounts too . Right , the black

46:55

content creators on TikTok were finding

46:57

that . You know that their algorithms are broken

46:59

in a way that they were . They stopped getting the views

47:02

that they needed

47:04

. Right ? The folks posting about Palestine

47:06

that the algorithms shut them down . And

47:08

you know Facebook apologized and said it was an

47:10

error . But you know there's a question

47:13

of we don't know that that was an error . It

47:15

seems like the type of thing that would be intentional

47:17

. So you know , absolutely

47:19

I think that those that these are other they

47:22

read that there are many ways that technology can be

47:24

used to disadvantage us . So

47:27

in the book , I focus

47:29

less on the

47:32

structural algorithm ways

47:34

of racism showing up

47:36

kind of in the wiring of the

47:38

internet and I focus more on in

47:41

terms of . I do talk about racism

47:43

as a structural phenomenon , but I focus

47:45

on the book on personal experiences with racism Online

47:49

in person and how they change this

47:51

, how they you know how

47:53

they change our understanding of racism in the world

47:56

and then you know , most importantly

47:58

, how we resist and how we respond

48:00

to them and the ways that online communication

48:02

really empowers people to challenge

48:05

racism and more , you know

48:07

, kind of open and innovative

48:09

ways and they feel comfortable doing in person

48:11

and this kind of shift in power dynamics

48:13

. So I think I , in that sense , I am focused more

48:15

on the impact on

48:18

humans and our interpretation as

48:20

opposed to . You know right that things

48:22

like the credit searches .

48:24

Yeah , I mean it will be interesting , interesting

48:26

research on the algorithm you

48:29

know , and I think , like you said , thinking

48:31

you're saying like your , your

48:33

friends I think what

48:35

we need to do is , as black people , you know

48:37

, start to report more people online

48:40

. You know , I mean because I know I guess we

48:42

just so used to racism that

48:44

we don't even I don't think I've

48:47

ever reported anybody . You know

48:49

, I mean because you just so used to

48:51

it , like , all right well .

48:52

I'm just I'm just used to it . I'm

48:55

just not used to telling people , so that's the whole

48:57

point

49:00

.

49:00

We got this whole point

49:02

. We got to tell us some people man , I'm doing this

49:04

thing right , you know I mean . But again , like you said , if

49:07

it's not in my face in this direct in the

49:09

past , I probably would be , like you know , case a roster

49:11

, rob . But you know , like you said , I think that's the thing that we

49:13

probably need to do is start actually reporting . More

49:16

people take the time to do it right

49:18

, right .

49:19

I want to switch gears real quick before we get ready

49:21

to wrap up . Rob , choose

49:24

your own resistance film

49:26

that you you know day . Can

49:28

you tell us about that ?

49:31

yeah , yeah , it is a film

49:33

about the choice to challenge racism

49:37

. This is something that that comes out

49:39

of research , where I talk with

49:41

students about their experiences with racial

49:43

microaggressions , with racism , and

49:45

how people responded or didn't respond

49:48

, why they respond to , why they didn't

49:50

respond . And what I did is I took

49:52

from stories with right

49:54

these students were

49:56

sharing with me , and then I wrote a

49:58

scenario based on , you

50:02

know , on those stories , and then I brought

50:04

it back to the students and let them read it to see hey

50:06

, does this sound realistic ? What do you think about this ? We had

50:08

a conversation about it and

50:10

basically what the what the film is doing is

50:12

it shows an incident of racism

50:15

and no one responds to

50:17

it and kind of showing the causes

50:19

and consequences , and then it shows

50:21

it right . Then it shows the alternate and what happens if

50:23

someone were to speak up in this situation . And

50:26

we shot it in 360 degrees

50:28

. So it's for . It's for virtual reality . You

50:31

put on the headset and you're actually embodying the experience

50:33

of someone . You hear their external thoughts

50:35

, you hear their internal thoughts , and it's right

50:37

. It's also a multi perspective film , where we're

50:39

showing the scene from the perspective of

50:41

the person being microaggressed , from

50:44

the perspective of the microaggresser , from the perspective

50:46

of a bystander , and really

50:48

examining in depth

50:51

what are the right , the different

50:53

ways , the different choices we can make and how

50:55

to respond to racism and what are the consequences

50:57

of choosing to respond or not to

50:59

respond . And so it's something that I do

51:02

see as being art , but I also see as being

51:04

an intervention where I'm , you know we're gonna

51:06

be there , you know , testing this and

51:08

and looking at it as a as

51:10

a way to have conversation and

51:12

try to increase people's awareness of

51:14

how important it is to resist and challenge

51:16

racism and kind of stop the reproduction

51:19

of racism , because when it's ignored

51:21

, it's allowed to do its own thing and people think

51:24

it is normal and that's just the way things

51:26

are . We gonna leave it alone and the red light

51:28

, I think the resisting racism , you know

51:30

, puts a stop to that and let's people know no

51:32

, no , this is problematic , we're not gonna continue

51:34

to let it go . And so you

51:36

know it's something I've been working on for right

51:38

for for some months now . It

51:41

is in , it is in post-production

51:43

, we got the composer just finished

51:45

the music , and so you know things are , you know

51:47

things are close to to being ready to be

51:49

put out , but I'm , you know , I'm very excited

51:51

about you know this , this , this being

51:53

in the world so once

51:56

it comes out and you know you have a platform to come

51:58

back and discuss it further you know , sounds like a

52:02

nice project .

52:03

You know you kind of answer . The question that I

52:05

had was like where you gonna use this , for which it is

52:07

a teaching moment , and you know , like training

52:09

and things that are nature , you're just gonna put

52:11

it out and let it just soak in everybody . Just

52:13

in general , you know yeah

52:16

.

52:17

So I think we'll put it out at

52:19

film festivals , I'm gonna use it , I'm

52:22

gonna do a research study , right , so this is funded by

52:24

, you know , a research grant

52:26

. So I am gonna study it and do research

52:28

on it and then , once we do those

52:30

two things , then I'm gonna find a

52:32

way for this to be freely available online

52:35

. And so that right that we have a right

52:38

, we have ways to put online where you can be

52:41

in it in a video game , where you

52:43

can move around even if you don't have a headset

52:45

, I'd like it to be available for free . For

52:47

folks who have headsets , we'll make it available

52:49

as a download , but then for people

52:51

who don't have , you know , a headset , that they

52:53

should be able to use a browser to get to it to . So

52:55

there's something that you know , once we , once

52:58

we we studied and we we

53:00

try to you know , presented at

53:02

festivals , that we're gonna try to make it freely available

53:04

for everybody is there any projects beyond

53:06

this that you have ?

53:08

have cooking or just you focus on one

53:10

thing at a time right now ?

53:11

I should be focused on one thing at a time , man , but

53:14

I have a hard time doing that . I think I'm

53:16

someone I always got multiple things in a pot

53:18

. I don't , I don't have any

53:20

, you know . I got some other things that

53:22

I'm working on that I'll keep you

53:25

know . I'm gonna keep on the low . For now

53:27

I will say that I am , you know

53:29

some of who . I write a lot of fiction and

53:32

I haven't I haven't published anything . I think that

53:34

I typically I give priority

53:36

to my academic work , my nonfiction work

53:39

, but I think , you know , this summer I've been

53:41

working on some personal projects

53:43

that are , you know , thematically

53:45

going to be very similar to what my academic

53:48

work is , but then , in terms of medium

53:51

, you know , are

53:53

very different . So so , definitely

53:55

, I do got some other things cooking , nothing

53:59

that I'm ready to speak on publicly , but

54:01

as long as you got something going

54:03

, rob , that's all yeah yeah , you

54:06

got something cooking so

54:08

much , you got something cooking , hey , robbie , thank you .

54:12

Thank you for your time brother

54:15

. I'm gonna put doctor on your name , man , you are

54:17

not .

54:18

I appreciate that I

54:20

appreciate y'all having me yeah

54:22

definitely appreciate you .

54:24

You know , just hang on for a second , but we want to go

54:26

wait . Before you go , let everybody

54:28

know where they can reach you at

54:30

all your social media , your

54:33

you know dot coms

54:35

, book , everything .

54:36

Tell them all about it , man yeah

54:38

, yes , on Twitter I'm Rob Eshman . On

54:41

Instagram I'm Rob dot Eshman . My

54:44

website is Rob Eshman dot com

54:47

. You know , and I got I got all my email

54:49

and contact information on the website . You can . You

54:51

can keep up with up with all the the different

54:53

products I have going on there . And

54:56

then you know the book is called . When it comes

54:58

off racism and resistance in the digital age

55:00

. You know you can find it on Amazon

55:02

, barnes and Noble . And

55:05

then you know , if you want to support local bookstores

55:07

, any right , it may not be in an

55:09

independent bookstore , but you

55:11

can definitely order it from an independent bookstore

55:13

yes , I should agree , folks

55:15

, and you know something that's a space that nobody's

55:17

really discussing and it will .

55:19

You know , open your mind up to a few things

55:21

that you are Harlem and you got any of these books

55:24

in one of these little swastika hall of

55:26

it , yes , and book culture on 112 , and

55:28

I'm hoping that it'll be in more stores too .

55:30

You know , I think that sometimes with books

55:32

from academic presses we don't always make it

55:34

into every bookstore like that . So

55:37

I did write it for a popular audience

55:39

, that is a . It's a research-based book , but I didn't

55:41

write it , you know , just

55:44

for an academic audience , so I am hoping that

55:46

it finds its way into , you

55:48

know , into more space before we go .

55:49

I was one thought it's not the ego , wrap free

55:52

idea , play a play on Planet

55:54

of the Apes . They go out there and they

55:56

but in , but in . But instead of apes it's actually black

55:58

people , and then the Caucasians are

56:01

the subject of black .

56:04

I think that would be a wonderful you know you know , brother

56:06

, you know that the planet of apes was actually

56:08

. I know

56:10

but you want to actually have black people you want to do it . You

56:12

want to do it that would

56:14

be rise in the streets that

56:24

thing , that thing , it goes straight to you .

56:26

It goes straight to you to .

56:30

I don't know . I think it's a Netflix budget you

56:33

can't get it , or to I

56:41

think you should go ahead and write that one , rob

56:44

.

56:44

You don't want him to do it . Listen

56:48

y'all , the only one my podcast is available on all

56:50

platforms . Just stream your podcast . Also

56:53

check out our only one Mike YouTube

56:55

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56:57

and please don't forget to rate the show and

57:00

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57:02

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57:04

. Facebook and LinkedIn at the only one my

57:06

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57:09

at the only one , mike 00 , at gmailcom

57:11

. And now you can call us to have

57:13

your questions or comments played on the show . Area

57:16

code 302-367-7219

57:20

. Look y'all , we thank you . Thank

57:22

you again for your time . We

57:25

encourage you to speak your truth quietly and clearly

57:27

and listen to others , even adult and ignorant , because they

57:29

too have their story to tell . So until

57:31

next time , please keep in mind that we never had to

57:33

run from the two cluts clan , so we shouldn't have

57:35

to run from a black man .

57:37

Peace peace , peace

57:40

.

57:40

Appreciate y'all appreciate

57:42

you too , brother . Yeah .