0:00

Hey everyone, this is Rohan. Welcome

0:02

back to another episode of Open

0:04

Floor. Wanted to do something a little

0:07

bit different for the show today. As

0:09

I'm sure many of you seen the news, we

0:11

lost our colleague, our friend, Grant

0:14

Wall at the World Cup over

0:17

the weekend at the age of forty.

0:20

Obviously, it's been a very shocking

0:22

and strange few days for a lot of us

0:25

who knew Grant. So on today's

0:27

episode, I asked my friend John

0:29

Wortheim to join the show just to

0:32

talk to us about Grant Wall, talk

0:34

about Grant's career a little bit, what he meant to us,

0:37

when he meant to so many people, both

0:39

in and out of media. So apologies

0:41

for no basketball talk on the show

0:44

today. We'll definitely be back with some basketball stuff

0:46

later this week, but for today,

0:48

we really wanted to honor our our good

0:50

friend Grant Wall. All

0:54

right, joining me now is Sports

0:57

Illustrated senior writer John

0:59

Worth. Time. John. I know we

1:01

we kind of just touched on this a little bit, but it's been

1:03

a wild few days. How you holding up, man? I

1:07

appreciate that. Um, yeah, it's been

1:09

a wild, wild a few days.

1:12

Um, but uh no, thanks

1:14

thanks for asking. I mean it's kind of every

1:17

every cliche about about grief

1:20

has has some validity. It really does feel

1:23

surreal. It's really this um

1:26

confluence of weird emotion. Um.

1:29

I mean, one of the things that's really helped

1:32

is, uh, you know, I knew

1:34

grit it was a good dude. You knew he

1:36

was a good dude. You know you,

1:39

you and I and our colleagues knew

1:41

that he was working at a high level. But man,

1:44

this this outpouring has really been extraordinary.

1:47

And that's um, I mean, it's it's nice to see

1:49

and sort of for for selfish, personal

1:51

narcissistic reasons, it's kind of been comforting

1:53

too. It's kind of really helped

1:56

me personally. I'm sure it's helped. I know it

1:58

has. In fact, I know it's helps Lee his

2:00

his wife as well. It's really been, Um,

2:03

it's really been gratifying. That's sort of what what we

2:05

all knew. Clearly, thousands

2:07

of thousands of other people knew as

2:09

well. You

2:12

know, it's really the

2:16

first time I think that, uh, to

2:20

see, like you said, on one hand,

2:22

it's so gratifying to see

2:25

all the people who have had stories to share, and

2:27

I want to get into it just because it's like, I

2:29

wonder how Grant literally had the time.

2:32

Um, but yeah,

2:34

you mentioned it's surreal, like

2:37

seeing someone you know

2:39

get talked about to that degree, like on

2:41

Twitter, like going through your Twitter feed and seeing people

2:43

talk about someone you knew

2:45

like to that degree, or seeing that he is

2:48

being like and rightfully

2:50

so obviously like honored during

2:52

halftime of a World Cup

2:54

match. It's kind of like I still haven't

2:56

been able to wrap my head around all that stuff, you know. Yeah,

3:01

I mean I think he was really a titan

3:04

in this sport. And this

3:06

is not a niche sport either, you

3:09

know, I mean this is this is a prime

3:11

player. I think there's a real admiration for

3:13

his for his integrity. I think

3:15

some of this too is you know that the soccer that

3:17

he started covering is not the

3:19

soccer where it is today when these World

3:21

Cup games are getting NFL

3:24

type of numbers. Um,

3:26

you know, obviously just this having happened

3:29

at the World Cup, at the biggest event. I mean, this

3:31

is, you know, a towering NFL

3:33

writer who happens to pass away to Super Bowl. And

3:35

I think that's sort of the context of all this, The

3:38

suddenness of all of it. But no,

3:41

I mean the other thing too, is I'm

3:43

telling someone else, you know, it's it's

3:46

it's why Jan King and Lebron

3:48

James are sending condolences, but a lot of

3:50

a lot of these other you

3:52

know, it's it's the intern from two thousand

3:55

four who still remembers a small act

3:57

of kindness to me. That's just as

3:59

just this point it and says just as much about

4:01

Grant Um.

4:03

But yeah, I mean,

4:06

it's just I can't my

4:08

guy. I was overseas um

4:10

when this happened, and I woke up and my phone I'll

4:12

grabbed, like we all embarrassingly do

4:15

first that we do, we grab our phone, and it says Grant

4:17

Wall Grant. And I'm like, oh, grandmother must have been a crazy

4:19

game, because Grants sure texting me a lot. And

4:22

then I said, oh ship, these aren't text these are

4:25

these are news alerts. And then it's

4:27

sort of all you know,

4:29

kind of came into focus. But um,

4:32

yeah, it's just it's been a really strange

4:36

and difficult a few days. But the fact

4:38

that Grant's getting is due is says, you

4:41

know again, like I can every time I

4:43

turn on my phone, there's at CNN and MSNBC,

4:45

and it's you know, Chris Stone wrote a beautiful

4:47

piece in the l A Times, and someone else wrote a piece.

4:50

Frank Foyer wrote a piece in the Atlantic. It's really

4:53

being treated as sort of a celebrity

4:55

passing and I'm

4:58

great. I'm thrilled that he's

5:00

the recognition he deserves. Yeah,

5:02

I think you know, Chris Stone or Old Boskan

5:04

I mentioned it in his l A Times piece.

5:07

But it's just like all

5:09

over the world people are talking about Grant

5:11

Um and it just shows the impact

5:13

he had on on everyone he met. And I

5:16

really wanted to talk to you today, John, because you

5:18

know, when I joined at s I UM

5:22

seven years ago, now, like I've only

5:24

ever known Grant Wall as

5:27

kind of this larger than

5:29

life figure, right like I you know, I idolized

5:32

all the SI writers, you Grant

5:34

Lee Jenkins. You know, when I first started

5:36

s I, I was like, whoa, Like,

5:38

you know, these people were at the

5:41

top of their profession. You know, I've

5:43

only ever known Grant as you know, the

5:45

soccer writer in America,

5:48

and I was just

5:50

kind of blown away that he even

5:52

cared who I was. You know, like, at any

5:54

point during my time at A side. I mean that genuinely.

5:57

You know, I'm sure you

6:00

know a lot of people I

6:03

think, like me, feel this way. And I think a lot of people

6:05

who starting this industry now

6:07

it's a lot different, um, the pathways

6:10

are a lot different. And you

6:12

know, it just feels like I've kind of been playing

6:15

the role of a writer a lot more than I've actually

6:18

been. But it's but

6:20

it's weird. And I just think that Grant was,

6:23

like, you know, one of the first guys

6:25

who I think really kind of

6:27

treatedly like a teammate and show me that

6:29

respect, and it went so far from

6:32

me. And but

6:34

I mean, you've known Grant, you know when

6:36

you guys first started s I, And I'm just I

6:38

just want to know what those days were like, like when you guys

6:41

first worked together, first starting

6:43

an s I. Where you were you like,

6:45

I gotta take this guy out. He's gonna be my

6:47

rival, um Or are you guys

6:49

able to form a friendship right away? I

6:52

don't know right right away. I mean there's there's some

6:55

of it is just I think who we are,

6:57

But I think we very much saw ourselves

6:59

as teammates. We covered

7:02

different deeds, we actually collaborated on

7:04

a number of we did. We did a bunch of work

7:06

together. We lived out, we lived near

7:08

each other. We were roughly the same age.

7:10

Chris don't seem to think we started the same

7:13

week, which I don't think it's right, but you know, we we started

7:16

right around the same time. We shared an office. These were

7:18

sort of the glory days. I hate

7:20

that I've turned into this nostalgia guy that

7:22

talks about the when it was

7:24

days, But no,

7:27

you don't. The one thing about Sports Illustrated is

7:29

that it was

7:32

always and I you know, we

7:34

were lucky enough to come into this culture. It

7:37

was really collegial, and it really

7:39

was this team environment and

7:41

there wasn't a sense that you had to climb over

7:44

someone. We were all friends and Pearlman

7:46

and I mean, it's just set Davis and Donald.

7:49

You could go on and on, and

7:51

we were all kind of in

7:54

our twenties and felt lucky to be there and living

7:56

in New York and we were

7:58

fact checkers. But the idea

8:00

is to kind of prove yourself and

8:03

that was kind of the way to start and

8:05

you eventually hopefully get get

8:07

promoted. And I you know,

8:09

Gret's talent was really apparent early

8:12

on. Um.

8:14

But you know, and he sort of had this this

8:17

mix of he came

8:19

from Kansas, he was an Eagle scout. In some

8:21

ways, he was sort of an off

8:23

strack. I mean, I don't he he didn't He hadn't been to

8:25

Europe until he went to the to the ninety World Cup

8:28

on assignment. And he

8:30

had also come from Princeton and traveled in Latin

8:32

America. And you

8:35

know, I was was living here in Manhattan. Um,

8:39

and we became very close friends

8:41

very quickly. I think a lot of that was we

8:45

did some collaboraty. We worked together

8:47

as well, on pieces together. And

8:49

he he was really sort

8:52

of gazzlingly talented,

8:54

not not just as a writer, but just his

8:57

instincts were really good. I mean, he's the one

8:59

that he understood that soccer

9:01

was a huge growth area and there was a real blind

9:03

spot not just a sports illustrated but in the way

9:06

the US media was covering this ascending

9:08

sport, and there

9:10

was a real blind spot in the way you

9:13

know us you know whatever.

9:15

Then the men's national team was treated different from the women's national

9:18

team, and the Women's World Cup was treated I think

9:20

he just he saw a lot of these trends coming.

9:22

I mean, we did a story together in um, I

9:25

don't know, it was twenty years ago now, but it was essentially

9:27

kind of a it was a me too type story

9:29

because I knew that there were male soccer

9:32

coaches sleeping with their players and that wasn't

9:34

cool. And he he had really,

9:37

I mean, the last thing he ever wanted

9:40

to have done with his life was sort of be a to

9:43

be to be a fund manager or to be a you

9:46

know, some some kind of portfolio manager. But

9:48

he really had a great sense of timing.

9:51

He really saw trends before

9:53

anyone else. Get sort of big

9:55

big and small. Um.

9:58

But no, I mean we we sort of aim

10:00

at the This was the

10:02

last days of what the uh, the

10:05

last days of disc It was sort of the last days of the golden

10:07

age of magazine. So we were there and it was like do

10:09

you want to go? I mean, he and I went

10:11

to l A together and the editor says,

10:13

go have a really expensive dinner on us, and

10:16

we would go to Zaga. Okay, I feel

10:18

I can't believe them. I can't believe it turned into

10:20

that guy but

10:24

the back but you know, I mean this it was a different era

10:26

and Uh, this was sort of free free

10:28

uh free spending. The

10:31

Sports Illustrated earned some huge

10:33

profit and that redounded to the to

10:35

the writers anyway enough stug,

10:38

yeah, never's there's no money left for the

10:40

rest of us. Um Uh. What

10:44

did you think of his pivot to soccer? Were

10:46

you like, this is insane because I know

10:48

that for me at least, I'm like, you

10:50

know, I'm writing about the NBA, and you know, in

10:53

part because I I love that it's

10:55

a very popular sword and it feels like it has this big

10:57

platform. I think Grant has done that force

11:00

soccer, but it wasn't always there. Were

11:02

you What did you think when he was like making

11:05

this hard charge to be you

11:07

know, the soccer guy. When

11:10

when we shared an office, he was like he

11:12

wanted that job as soon as he arrived.

11:15

And I wouldn't say

11:17

it was grudging, but you know, he did a lot

11:19

of college hoops, um,

11:22

sort of as a way to

11:25

spend the fall in the winter before he could

11:27

go back to doing soccer. If

11:29

it were up to him, he would have done soccer from the

11:31

start. And I think that I I think I told us

11:33

The Stone the first story he

11:35

ever did. He kept pitching there was just mia Ham

11:38

North Carolina. He was a really good player, and

11:40

you know, everybody's like, yeah, whatever, dude. Um

11:43

And finally they let him write

11:45

about mia Ham, and I think that was his first

11:48

sort of main magazine story. Um.

11:52

And then he went to cover the World

11:54

Cup and then the Women's World Cup. But I

11:56

think, you know, I don't he saw it as

11:58

a you know, I thinking about two thousand and ten

12:00

he became the full time soccer writer. But I think

12:02

if he had had his way, he

12:05

would have done that from the day

12:07

he started. Um,

12:13

how did you see you know you

12:15

mentioned it's two thousand ten, like that

12:17

he obviously had the Lebron story.

12:20

I mean, it's just crazy to think about

12:22

how many I one of

12:24

the last times I saw Grant, which is crazy

12:27

to say. I remember, I like remembered

12:29

that he had he written the

12:31

Beckham book. Like remember how big a deal it was

12:34

when um, I think he reported

12:36

that David Beckham like didn't pick up the tab

12:38

and an l a Galaxy team dinner. I

12:41

remember that was like I

12:44

was like I was looking at Grant and I was like

12:46

having that moment of like, I don't know if

12:48

you're a big gift guy, but like the gift of

12:50

like people like the math numbers going

12:52

around the head. I was like,

12:55

I was like, wait a second Grant wrote a David

12:57

Beckham book that was a huge deal in the book,

13:00

Um, when did you kind

13:02

of realize that his like his

13:04

his soccer wins, like his big stories were

13:06

really resonating that it was

13:08

becoming kind of a bigger deal than when

13:11

you know, s I wasn't even sending people to World cups.

13:15

Well, I mean the fact that he could get that

13:18

kind of a book with David Beckham, which wasn't

13:20

I mean, think about this. It wasn't

13:23

an as told to write. It wasn't like,

13:25

oh, David Beckham needs a ghostwriter to do this

13:27

image laundering book. So

13:30

he sort of had the sweet spot where he had enough

13:32

access to get a

13:35

little time with Beckham, but also

13:37

was writing this independent book. I mean that that was

13:39

not a glowing necessarily.

13:42

I mean this this was not sort of you know, there

13:44

was some real digs there. So he sort of was able he

13:46

had enough cachet and enough sort of

13:49

status to write a David Beckham

13:51

book without doing it as hay

13:54

geography or or a stenography.

13:56

Um, I mean, Jack mccalem tells the story of

14:00

going to the London Olympics in and

14:04

um, grant,

14:06

I don't put put out on Twitter. Hey, I'm going to so and

14:08

so pub, and all of a sudden the place got absolutely

14:10

flooded with soccer fans and Jack sort of said,

14:12

wait, is it is anyone like the NBA? Anybody

14:15

like basketball? We want to talk talk about lebron

14:17

um But no,

14:20

I think it was. It was pretty clear, and you could

14:22

see this in his social media profile. You I mean, I would

14:25

go out with him. I remember we saw who was

14:27

the movie about the musicians from South Africa, the

14:30

Searching for Sugarman, and

14:32

you know we're we're

14:34

in the lobby going to see this movie together and

14:36

people are recognizing him. Um. Yeah,

14:40

it was. It was pretty clear pretty

14:42

early on. And he had a real reputation

14:44

and profile in this in the sport, you know, without

14:46

TV. It's one thing when you're on or around the Horde, which

14:49

is like the last thing he ever wanted to do. I

14:51

mean, he did this as a credible,

14:55

compassionate, capable, professional, ethical

14:57

writer, um, which is a lot

14:59

different than you know, hey, hey, I saw you on a countdown

15:03

it is he had like serious

15:05

fans, and I know that people I think are

15:08

obviously seeing that now. But I

15:10

went to you know, he wrote another book

15:12

in the last couple of years, Master Amount and Soccer, and

15:14

I he did like a reading at

15:16

a bar in Brooklyn, and he's got fans

15:19

like they have inside jokes, like people are

15:21

asking about things that happened years

15:24

ago. And I I don't know that we

15:26

like we really have writers

15:29

like that anymore, you know what I mean, Like

15:31

I, um, people

15:34

really really dedicated to you know. I've

15:36

heard stories about, Oh,

15:38

we were at the World Cup in South Africa and Grant

15:40

wanted to have a barbecue. And it's like you get people

15:42

from all different walks of

15:44

life, um showing up,

15:47

Like you know, he'll he his stories

15:49

about like Hant, like the hon Duran president,

15:51

like the time he had lunch at his house or

15:54

um.

15:57

I guess I knew that he knew so many people,

15:59

but it's really kind of blew me away just

16:02

how many different people seem

16:04

to have a Grant Wall story. Stone

16:07

Stone made a really good comparison to Anthony

16:10

Barding. The difference is

16:13

Grant, you know, and I think, um,

16:15

I mean, he was more than a writer. He's

16:17

a podcaster. He do short videos, some of

16:19

those documentaries about the super

16:21

clubs that he did with with people you and I used to work

16:24

with. But the fact that Grant

16:26

had this level of

16:30

respect and you know, I use this in the most

16:32

flattering way celebrity, um

16:35

without the look

16:37

at me as um of TV is

16:40

really extroyed there. Um.

16:43

Grant was also really popular for

16:46

throwing dinner parties

16:48

and when he invited me to when I

16:51

it was like the most adult thing I had done

16:54

at that time, I was terrified. Um,

16:57

I was like, what do I wear? Dude?

17:00

I was dude. I was like, my bosses are gonna be this is

17:02

so strange. Um.

17:05

I was like, oh god, I don't know. I was twenty

17:09

five, maybe six. I'm telling you,

17:11

this was at this point in my life easily

17:13

the most adult thing I've done in my entire life.

17:16

And I knew it was adult because I was like, Grant,

17:18

can I bring a bottle of wine? And he requested

17:20

like a specific color and I was like, you don't do

17:22

that, and this is like unless this is an

17:25

incredibly classy meal. Um,

17:28

did you think Grant was a good cut? This is

17:30

a safe space. Oh man, Um,

17:35

dependent on the night, there was some. There

17:37

was some I't remember the last time scaloped.

17:40

Um, yeah, there were there were some. Uh

17:44

what's let's um, let's rod this.

17:47

Yes, you

17:50

know, honestly, I think whatever

17:52

the opposite of a social climber is. I

17:55

mean, you and I have both worked with people, I'm sure, and I

17:57

you know, I think to its credits, we're illustrated

17:59

the chord doesn't work this way. But you and I've worked in

18:01

offices where people, you know, you kissed the boss's

18:04

ass, and you're always sort of thinking about how to get

18:06

ahead and finding angles and um,

18:09

whatever the opposite of a social climber

18:11

was. That was great. I mean it it thrilled

18:14

him to be able to be a mentor and to help

18:16

people and to have people like you exactly.

18:18

I mean I was that some of those two and the other

18:21

you know, I go with my wife and the other couple. There

18:23

would be half our age I just

18:25

started six weeks ago in the video department. That

18:28

was great, And I think some of it was sort

18:30

of no blessed obleiche. I mean, some of it was just being a good

18:32

dude. But I think some of it was. He just thought that was more

18:34

interesting. I don't want to sit there and have

18:37

to kiss asked with a bunch of time

18:39

water muckey munths. I'd rather hang

18:41

out with like the twenty five year olds and learn about

18:43

gifts or

18:46

gifts. Yeah, no, I agree.

18:48

And just knowing how many

18:50

different people you like extended an invite

18:52

to her from like you said, like you

18:55

know, I know that he you

18:57

mentioned, you know, the last couple of years, and I said, he

18:59

was doing like a TV show. He had all the video

19:01

producers over and Um,

19:03

he was just such a great teammate to

19:06

every single person that he

19:08

worked with. Um,

19:11

how long was he rocking

19:13

the leather jacket? Because as long as I've

19:15

known Grant, he was rocking. Yeah,

19:21

it's kind of like his go to and uh,

19:24

the sartorial sense was was right up

19:26

there with the cooking. There's some some big you

19:28

know, big yeah,

19:31

conscious you know, it was some

19:33

some you know some sometimes risk taking pays

19:36

off and sometimes it does. But no, the black black

19:38

leather jackets, it's like Dicky

19:40

and the black T shirt that that was a standard

19:43

standard look for Grant. Um,

19:45

I love it. Just yeah, man, he just was very

19:48

old school in that way. He had his uniform

19:50

too, you know what I mean, Um,

19:55

how have you for me? It's just like

19:57

you mentioned, every day I opened up Twitter and I feel

19:59

like I see a different Grant

20:02

Wall story and it's,

20:04

like I said, it's remarkable, and I

20:08

you know, it's crazy. Obviously

20:10

Grant left side. And I think

20:13

that one silver lining that came

20:15

from that unfortunate circumstance was I

20:17

I just told him after you

20:19

know what happened, like how

20:22

much he meant to me? And um,

20:25

you know, I wish I wish it hadn't even taken that for

20:27

me to tell him, you know, came in like you how

20:29

much you meant to my career? And what

20:32

has it been like for you when you log

20:34

on and you see all this stuff? Because you

20:37

know it's I had a relationship with Grant.

20:39

I you know, he meant so much

20:41

to me. It's not like we were the closest friends at

20:43

the same time. But to see just

20:46

the outpouring of different stories literally from

20:48

people all of the world, you know what's it like when

20:50

you see that? Every day? Um,

20:53

I mean I've

20:55

thought a lot about I mean, I've thought about it obviously,

20:57

first and foremost in respect to Grant, And again, it's

21:00

really it's really gratifying that

21:03

what we all knew, so many other people knew,

21:05

and that this is this is

21:07

social media at its best. I

21:10

also think it's really gratifying that

21:13

somebody who you know, this this meat media isn't

21:15

a weird spot and the people

21:18

who are the highest paid in our business

21:20

and this, I mean, it's it's

21:22

it's a strange space

21:25

right now. The values are changing, access

21:28

is changing. You have this whole sort of transactional

21:30

side, and it's really been

21:33

heartening that someone who did this the right way,

21:35

who wasn't cutting corners

21:38

and doing hot take bullshit, It wasn't,

21:42

you know, using

21:44

Twitter as a as a sole mode

21:47

of communication. It's someone who did this with

21:49

integrity and with reporting and

21:51

with long for writing. Um.

21:54

That it's it's really heartening that there's

21:57

still this level of respect and people

22:00

of her noticing the quality.

22:02

Um. If Grant

22:05

stands for the principle you can you

22:07

can still do this job with integrity.

22:10

UM, that's that's

22:13

great. And the fact that sort of the quality of

22:15

his work is being recognized in conjunction

22:17

with what a good dude he was is

22:19

something that I

22:21

think it's really meaningful. I think this

22:24

is a great insight into a how much of

22:26

a nerd I am and be what Grant

22:28

is like. But one of the I was at his house

22:30

and I was like, I was like, Grant, I

22:32

just want to know, like what motivates you? What

22:35

is you know, what is it that you're trying to

22:37

accomplish every time you write

22:39

a story or you know, and

22:43

like you mentioned like some people, and I don't think that's right

22:45

or wrong. Some people like I want, you know, I'm

22:47

working towards getting on TV,

22:49

or I'm working towards this job or

22:52

um, you know. And

22:54

Grant was just like, I just want my name to be associated

22:57

with quality work. And when people see my name,

22:59

I want them assume that whatever

23:01

they're getting its quality work. And I was like,

23:03

damn, that's cool as hell. And

23:07

to see how huge his sub stack

23:09

was, um, you know, I think

23:11

that someone had released like a ranking or

23:13

something, and he was in like the top ten most part of the subsets.

23:16

The way he built that up, Like I'm

23:20

just glad that he

23:22

was accomplishing what he wanted to do, Like you

23:24

know what I'm saying, Like he it's all

23:28

his stories like seeing again, Like I had friends

23:31

of mine who are not into sports or don't care

23:33

that I work for Sports Illustrated asking me

23:35

about Grant and you know the stories

23:37

that he was writing at the World Cup. Um,

23:41

it's just yeah, it's still hard to

23:44

make about that kind of stuff. But keep

23:46

keeping mind two. I mean, this is you

23:48

know, it's what when you have the backing of a of a big media

23:50

company and they're paying for your travel and

23:53

they're you know, there's someone in there. You're

23:55

doing your t n A and if you take out not

23:58

Carney for dinner, you can expect it. He's

24:01

he's doing this work essentially on

24:03

his own dime, and he's

24:06

I know that when he was you know, I want

24:08

to be a little but you know when he was he he left Sports

24:10

Illustrated in the pandemic. It wasn't

24:13

necessarily under the greatest circumstances. Happily

24:16

he he came back and to some extent there

24:18

was a reconciliation there.

24:20

But you know, when he went to Katark, he's

24:22

doing this essentially on his own dime. And

24:25

I know when he signed with Substact, the ability

24:27

to travel was something that meant a lot to him.

24:30

But there wasn't an editor saying,

24:32

hey, do this piece on workers rights abuses.

24:34

Do this piece on migrant labors who are who

24:36

are dying and being ill treated. Those

24:39

are his instincts. It's a lot easier to sit

24:41

there and fire off tweets

24:43

and quote anonymous sources and put

24:45

out click they um

24:48

when you're your own boss. It

24:50

really says a lot about you when you're writing five

24:53

thousand word pieces on workers rights

24:55

abuses, because the

24:57

economic incentive, the time incentive

25:00

of Again, if your number one objective

25:02

is I want people to associate my name with

25:04

quality, you write that story. If

25:06

your number one objective is you

25:09

know, likes and social

25:11

media approval and sort of the

25:14

vapid bullshit, then that's

25:17

the last thing you're doing. You're doing

25:19

it top ten list and yeah,

25:21

we all know how to game the system. We all know how to play

25:23

the game. Uh. Grant

25:26

didn't want that, And I think the fact that he was doing

25:28

us all, I mean, he was there independently

25:31

is something that sort of bears keeping

25:33

in mind. It's a lot a lot easier when you have the

25:35

cushion of the sort of lily pad

25:38

of of a big media organization

25:40

behind you. It's also a lot easier to get access.

25:42

It's a lot easier to get people to talk. You know, I still

25:45

to this day have benefit

25:47

of saying, hey, I'm with Sports Illustrated. We can

25:49

get you a daily cover, we can get

25:51

you placement in the magazine. We

25:53

have this massive platform that

25:56

we're going to leverage on. Your behalf. Like

25:59

people did stories with great People talked to Grant

26:01

because they knew who he was. It was all him.

26:03

It all came down to him. And I think that's a fear

26:06

every journalist has, like um

26:09

on some level, is is at the end

26:11

of the day, like how much respect is

26:13

my own name have? And and he

26:15

was proof that, you

26:17

know, he had become synonymous

26:20

with that integrity, with that respect. What

26:22

are some of your favorite stories that he's written,

26:24

because I think that you know, we

26:27

we know again kind of the later era, Grant

26:29

wall socks even you got to work with him. What are

26:31

some of the favorite things he's worked on? Many things you guys

26:34

got to work on together. Oh

26:36

man, we did a bunch of stories

26:38

together. And I think one story we did something on sort

26:40

of the globalization of sport. I

26:43

went to China, he went

26:45

to Africa and he found a Nike I gotta,

26:47

I gotta go back and look at this. But there was a guy

26:49

named to worked for Nike who was helping establish

26:52

a pipeline of players. Name was Basia

26:54

Jerry and uh

26:56

he was I think he was working for Nike at the time. And it was typical

26:58

Grant, like he found the guy who would later

27:00

become, you know that the general manager of an NBA

27:03

title winning team. And

27:05

in two thousand four, Grant had figured out this

27:07

was the guy who was going to create this Africa

27:09

pipeline. Um,

27:12

you know, I mean Grants soccer

27:14

stories, you can you can kick off. I mean,

27:16

I thought his work on college basketball and I

27:18

was just talking to you know, go

27:21

back and thumb through Gnwardo Nahara

27:24

perspectible board player in the NBA, and you're like, oh,

27:26

ship, there's there's Grant spyline. Um.

27:29

I mean the the Lebron piece. If you go back

27:31

and reread it, it was

27:33

really printed. I mean, I remember this is sort of a sidebar,

27:36

but he came back from

27:38

that Lebron story and you know

27:40

what he said. He said in the Lebron he's a nice kid, and

27:42

I think, you know, he's really freaking good, and he's already

27:44

sort of treated like a celebrity. But there's this guy named

27:47

Worldwide West. I want

27:50

to do a story on that guy. He seems

27:52

to know everyone. And still Night came over and

27:54

he goes Steven Spielberg and George everyone

27:56

knows. Have you ever heard of this guy, William Wesley

27:59

Worldwide West. That was

28:01

that was Grant. He'd done a Lebron James story

28:03

and that was all well and good. But he found this

28:05

other character in the course of the

28:07

reporting and was intrigued by him. And

28:09

for years and years and years he tried to get

28:12

Worldwide West to sit down with them, because

28:15

in two thousand two, Granted his

28:17

antenna's were up. He was always

28:19

listening and watching, and in the course

28:21

of writing a story on Lebron James, he ended

28:23

up coming back and his overwhelming impression

28:26

was there's this behind the scenes

28:28

operator named Worldwide West. His story

28:30

meter was like beeping like crazy,

28:33

And that was Grant in a nutshell.

28:36

He he did story A, and in the course

28:38

of doing it, found story B and

28:41

was happy to put one down to go pursue

28:43

the other. Um. I guess the

28:45

sense of that this is a basketball podcast, so I do want

28:47

to ask about it because I obviously

28:49

remember the Lebron cover. That's how I found it about

28:52

Lebron James. I was like, because it

28:54

wasn't even like I read the story

28:56

at first. It was like Sports Illustrated put a high

28:58

school junor on the cover. Was kind of

29:00

like the story, um

29:03

at least like how it was introduced to it, and then I would

29:05

read it. But at the time where

29:07

you like, I'm just

29:09

curious what the the climate was

29:12

like around that story, the mood. I mean, I

29:14

know that we are still striving to

29:16

do stuff like that all the time. Um,

29:19

it's just hard to imagine like ever being more

29:21

right than we were with that one. Do you

29:23

think do you remember

29:26

anything special about it or did it just kind of feel

29:28

like, oh, this is just kind of what we do here, we're

29:30

doing it again. No, I

29:32

remember there was there was some

29:34

internal there. There's been this sort of I

29:37

don't know, I'm trying to blank. You're

29:39

like Richie Parker, No, No, not Richie

29:41

Parker. Who phelipe A. Lopez? Remember

29:44

Phelippe A. Lopez and Tony Manner.

29:46

There's this history

29:48

of anointing the great savior

29:51

and then you end up a few years later rolling

29:53

your eyes and saying, you know, whatever

29:55

happened to Felipe Lopez U And

29:58

it was sort of this, let's see what

30:00

the story is. Let's not over hype

30:02

it. On the other hand, if this

30:05

guy is six is as good as advertised,

30:08

he's still an unbelievable player. So I think Grant

30:10

winning and eyes wide open. I think Grant didn't

30:12

want. I think Grant, of all people, would be skeptical

30:15

of doing a story of sort of anointing

30:17

the next big thing and then five years later having

30:19

it turned into a punch line. Um.

30:22

And I think that's one reason why if you

30:24

go back and reread that story, it's a lot about

30:26

the culture. It's a lot of I mean, Acron is a

30:28

story, and I mean Acron is a character

30:31

in that story. And I think at some level that

30:33

was Grant sort of taking

30:35

some precautions and putting up some guardrails against

30:37

just blindly anointing this kid as the next

30:40

great player, because Lord knows, and it wasn't

30:42

just sports illustrating. I mean, this is this is the game we're in,

30:44

right, Everyone's trying to discover

30:46

the next big boy. Band, and everyone's

30:49

kind of playing the futurist market. And

30:51

sometimes it's Venus and Serena Williams, and sometimes

30:53

it's Tiger Woods hitting golf

30:55

balls, and other times there are these

30:57

prodigies that never pan out.

31:00

I think I think Grant, of all people,

31:02

wasn't going to blindly

31:05

go into that story and say, here's the next Michael

31:07

Jordan's. I think he was open, and

31:09

I don't think you have specific marching orders,

31:11

but I think it's entirely possible

31:13

Grant could have seen him play and could have spoken to him and said,

31:16

you know what, like not

31:18

that this is O J Mayo, this isn't this

31:20

isn't Lebron James um

31:23

So. I think in a in a weird way, Grant was perfect

31:25

to do that story because I think he went in with sort

31:28

of a discerning I think a fair amount of

31:30

skepticism. It wasn't just blindly

31:32

gunning for a cover story to pronounce this

31:34

guy the next big thing. How

31:37

do you think maybe this is

31:39

never applies to you or applied to you, but

31:42

you know, I definitely think that there is.

31:46

I don't know, I feel like for

31:49

me, at least, there are certain writers that

31:51

are either ones that I look up to are ones

31:53

that I am kind of in the same cohort

31:56

with that I am keeping an eye

31:58

on. And I think that there's a healthy like push

32:00

you get, um, you know

32:02

working around or with other talented

32:05

people. Right. Um,

32:08

how do you think starting

32:11

around the same time as Grant, you know,

32:13

working with him, how did you what kind of influence

32:16

did that have on you? How did it how did

32:18

that impact your own career? Um?

32:23

Yeah, I really, uh no, I

32:26

I think I think it was one of the I mean again

32:28

it's sort of every cliche about clustering

32:30

effect, and I mean it was. It

32:32

was like we were at the same gym, but we were different weight classes.

32:34

So first of all, we were just buddy, you know, have

32:37

dinner together. Why we go to each other you know my

32:39

wedding. Um, there was no

32:41

competition, and part is we

32:44

cover different sports. I think also in part because we were

32:46

different kinds of writers. Um.

32:50

But I think that there was a really sports

32:52

tools who just had the really you

32:54

kept saying, he's a he's a good teammate, And I think that was

32:56

the culture at the time. You weren't necessarily looking

32:59

over your shoulder. There were a lot of pages in the magazine,

33:01

so he could have a story and I could have a

33:03

story too. We were in competition. I

33:06

really admired the way he

33:08

went about the job. I mean, I I

33:10

keep saying this, like I admire the quality

33:12

of the output, but I also really admire

33:14

the process, the way he

33:17

had relationships, the way he wasn't smarmy,

33:19

the the integrity. There was

33:21

a sweetness to him, but there was also if he was

33:24

piste off, not just I mean, you know, it

33:26

could be at an editor just as easily had

33:29

as it could be at FIFA.

33:31

There was sort of this this low threshold

33:34

for for moral outrage. I mean, you know you saw

33:36

that in the last week

33:39

of the work he had done um.

33:42

So it was it was admiration,

33:44

it was It was also really good, honestly to have someone

33:47

um. We you know, we were always promoted

33:49

together. We were sort of bracketed together by

33:51

the editor. So it was nice to have someone kind of

33:54

go um. It's sort

33:56

of me Me Grant and Jeff Perlman were always kind

33:58

of bracketed together and was

34:00

and again we we cover different sports, we have different

34:02

styles, were all friends, and

34:05

it was really nice to have like teammates

34:08

too, come up with an experience

34:10

of stuff together. And you know, we

34:12

would be the junior partners

34:15

walking into the partner's meeting with Rick Riley

34:17

and you know Bill McK and

34:19

Gary Smith and we would kind of look at each other

34:21

likely. I mean, it was sort of nice

34:23

to have someone come up through

34:25

the ranks with you like that. And there

34:27

was really I mean you sort of looked back on it, it

34:29

was pretty remarkable how not competitive

34:32

it was. And some of that I think was just the fact

34:34

that there were plenty of stories to go around.

34:38

Um and no,

34:41

I mean grant from a from a very we're

34:44

both from the Midwest, were roughly

34:46

the same age. We have a lot of experiences

34:48

in common. You know, you've lived a few blocks for me. Um,

34:51

we were sort of and we again we did

34:53

all these stories where we worked together. Um, you

34:55

know, we got to become good

34:58

friends in a short amount of time. What

35:00

was it like working on stories then? Because I think

35:02

that's another like, uh, we still

35:04

do it. It's a little bit of a last

35:06

start. Like you mentioned me, our magazine has changed

35:08

a lot. There's not as many pages, is not

35:11

many stories, and you know, there are

35:13

a lot of reasons for it. Obviously, we still do. You

35:15

know, I think our NFL team was a great job

35:17

working together on big stories. But you

35:19

know, you mentioned you had, you know, the Global

35:21

story, and he's in Africa year in China. What

35:23

was it like working on stories with him?

35:26

What can you tuck me under the curtain

35:28

a little bit? The process of cobi alining a

35:30

story with Grant? Um?

35:33

Uh? You know, I remember hearing great

35:35

stories from Lee Jenkins about what it was like working with

35:37

Pablo Tory back in the day. What was it like for you,

35:40

um, working with Grant? How would

35:42

you guys go about actually writing a story together?

35:46

Um? I mean,

35:49

honestly, I try to think we we did the sort of

35:51

the Weird Daddy story both, you

35:53

know, like our first year on the job, and that was kind

35:55

of our big Um.

35:59

That was sort of what we were trying to get from fact

36:01

checker to the next level where we didn't

36:03

have to do fact checking. But yeah, we did a story on bullying,

36:06

We did kind of this early days

36:09

sexual abuse, and power dynamics and

36:11

sports. We did the Global Agent story. And I think

36:13

honestly, we I

36:15

mean, I think it would just kind of sitting

36:19

one person with type and the other would dictate the

36:21

switch. I mean, I don't think either of us were particularly

36:24

precious about the writing. They were very reporting

36:27

driven stories, and these weren't the kind of stories

36:29

where you talk about the tangerine sunset

36:31

that heats into the distance. So I think a

36:33

lot of it was just you. You talked to

36:36

this dude, you write this paragraph.

36:38

I talked to the kid's dad, all right, this

36:41

paragraph. Um.

36:43

I mean, I remember him coming to my apartment

36:46

with his laptop and this was I

36:48

can't tell you how much I hate being the like back

36:51

in the daygether. There was no Internet, so

36:53

you know, it's not like we had a Google dot. That's

36:55

so funny,

36:58

I know, but I'm trying to war it off becoming

37:00

that guy that does the back in the day stories.

37:03

I've never existed in the world of

37:06

writing with no Google Talk. That's

37:08

wild man.

37:11

Grant would being his laptop, and he had better

37:13

typing skills, so he would, you know, I

37:16

we sit side by side. Um, but I

37:18

really don't. I don't want to be that

37:20

guy. I don't want to be the back of my day. Fair

37:22

Enough, if they were going to make a Grant

37:25

Wall movie, who do you are like they're

37:27

making a FIFA movie and Grant like,

37:29

who should play Grant Wall in the grand Wall

37:31

movie? Oh?

37:33

Man, who would

37:35

Grant want to play him? I really ironically,

37:37

you know, I think ironically I think

37:41

SuDS is from his town. Oh

37:43

that's right, they're both from Kansas.

37:45

Hard to fact fact check

37:47

me on that one. Um,

37:50

I think he is SuDS or from,

37:53

if not the same town, the same very similar

37:57

exactly, And obviously there's the

38:00

soccer pedigree there. I don't

38:02

that way more

38:04

prepared to answer that question than I ever thought

38:07

you could have been. That's what makes you also special

38:09

there, John had that one. You were ready

38:11

to go with that one. Um.

38:14

Yeah, I know, we've just been I feel

38:16

like I've mostly been rambling here. You've been telling

38:19

use great stories. It just is, yeah,

38:21

it's you know, obviously

38:25

we all want we have to accept

38:28

what has happened, but it it's

38:30

crazy to think that, like we're

38:32

just gonna have to move on from this in some ways

38:35

at at some point. And I just I

38:37

didn't want kind of the I

38:39

want people to still be talking about Grant Um

38:41

for a little while, and I hope that that continues

38:44

to happen and yeah, I

38:46

just can't stress enough, like the

38:50

the fact that he was able to kind of carve out

38:52

the salt small slice for

38:54

me at a you know, at a time at a side where

38:56

I just was like, you know, just another

38:58

guy on the roster And to see

39:00

how many people he has done that for it

39:03

is remarkable. I'm

39:05

just I'm really blown

39:07

away by just how much time

39:10

he had, the like the amount

39:12

of time he put into every

39:14

single one of his relationships

39:16

in his life and night again

39:18

you mentioned like cliches, but I'm just like, how do

39:21

we you know, how

39:23

do we bottle that moving forward? Like to me, that is

39:25

that is like there's no greater tribute

39:28

I could give to grant them to try to

39:30

do what he has done. And obviously,

39:32

like I don't know that I'll able to do it on the

39:35

scale that he did. But the fact

39:37

that he's just made time for every

39:39

single person as I not at

39:41

SI whatever the case may be, I think it's just it

39:44

really is remarkable. I'm

39:47

struck by the phrase you just you just just another

39:49

guy on the roster um

39:52

because you you say it, despite

39:54

you know, you you sort of save livingly

39:56

I think to grant another guy on the roster someone

39:59

really significant. We're all part

40:01

of this team, and if I can help someone,

40:04

that's a lot better use of my time

40:06

than trying to kiss some boss's ass and trying

40:08

to move up the chain. And I think if

40:10

we're talking about you know, again, it's

40:13

very easy to devolve into cliche,

40:15

but if we're talking about legacy

40:18

and carrying out a tradition, that this idea

40:20

of sort of ennobling

40:23

other people on the roster and thinking them

40:25

as as teammates and thinking this

40:27

as a team and not a ladder, is

40:30

um a way to honor grant I

40:32

mean, just just hear you having said that phrase, I think really

40:34

kind of um

40:37

triggered that for sure. Um.

40:39

Well, John, thank you so much for taking the

40:41

time. I know, I said, it's just been

40:43

it's been so

40:45

strange, and I don't

40:48

know that it's fully hit me yet and it's all been so

40:50

shocking, and yeah, I

40:52

just like I said, I just don't I hope people don't

40:54

stop talking about Grant Um

40:57

anytime soon. And it's just been

40:59

so great to see um

41:02

all the people talking about it. It's great to see what

41:04

you wrote your tribute to him at SI

41:06

dot com that I encourage people to read. That was beautifully

41:09

done. John. Um

41:11

yeah, thank you to everyone for sing John. Thank

41:13

you so much for taking the time to hang out with

41:15

me tonight. Man, I really appreciate you. Got

41:17

it. Next time we'll uh, we'll talk about

41:19

the Indiana Paces or something there.

41:21

We go for whoa,

41:30

whoa.