0:01

What's up, Open Floor Globe. This is Ben Dlver with

0:03

the Washington Post. I am joined on the other

0:05

line by Michael the pot Peena,

0:08

who covered the playoffs extensively for five

0:10

thirty eight and g Q. Michael,

0:12

I am proud to report I have made

0:15

the cross country journey.

0:17

I bobbed and weaved

0:19

through a very harrowing experience

0:21

at the Orlando Airport. Glad to say

0:23

I survived that. Hopefully I continue not

0:26

to show symptoms. Uh not totally

0:28

sure they're aware down there that there's a

0:30

pandemic. Michael, I gotta say that off the top,

0:33

but needless to say, I'm home in one piece. It

0:35

feels great, and we are officially

0:37

in season and

0:40

we will be indefinitely. At this

0:42

point. We don't know firmly when

0:44

next season will start, so that means we're gonna be

0:46

taking a lot of questions from the Open

0:48

Floor Globe, Michael, and they emailed us open

0:50

floor mail at gmail dot com, Open

0:52

floor mail at gmail dot com.

0:54

And I'll tell you what, Michael. The inbox

0:57

was full. Let's put it that way. The Los Angeles

0:59

Lakers fans are feeling great

1:01

about themselves. Seventeenth title in

1:04

franchise history. Lebron gets

1:06

one on his third different title. Anthony

1:08

Davis gets his first one. Uh,

1:10

you know, Lakers homegrown talent

1:13

sensation, Alex Crusoe gets

1:15

one after all those years of you

1:17

know, lottery trips and everything else developing,

1:20

Uh, you know, through their system. And

1:23

look, they wanted to let us know that they weren't

1:25

happy with our coverage, Michael. They wanted a little

1:27

bit more love. They wanted to get a little

1:29

bit more digs in um, you

1:31

know, back in favor of their team. So I'm going to open

1:33

up the floor here to some Lakers

1:36

fans who wanted to get some shots in. Okay,

1:38

here it comes. First of all, Kyle

1:40

writes, please tell quote unquote

1:43

the pod pena to stop hating

1:45

Anthony Davis didn't choose his Boston

1:48

Celtics because Danny Age is ruthless

1:50

and traded Isaiah Thomas after a gutsy

1:52

performance, and the Lakers gave Kobe

1:55

Bryant a golden parachute contract

1:57

after his Achilles tier tear. Why

2:00

because of everything he gave to the franchise.

2:03

Um Magic after bailing on the Lakers,

2:05

still loves the Lakers. James Worthy

2:07

is a broadcaster for the Lakers. Even

2:09

Karen Butler, who signed a one year deal

2:12

with the Lakers, now has a job with

2:14

the Lakers. We take care of our

2:16

own. The Bus family doesn't use the

2:18

Lakers as a tax deduction for their failing

2:20

cruise business or prison telemarketing

2:23

scams. They live basketball. I

2:25

am tired of all the Boston Celtics media

2:28

guys taking shots. And one last

2:30

note, the bubble was a mental grind. Kawhi

2:32

Leonard and the Clippers had their shot and

2:35

they just missed. Now, Michael,

2:37

I got another message here from

2:39

Tyler who brought up the

2:41

fact that you picked against the Lakers four times

2:43

in a row, and he writes the pod just

2:46

keeps taking loss after loss.

2:49

One might say he's a lost

2:51

connoisseur. And Michael, for years, I've called

2:53

myself a win connoisseur because I appreciate

2:55

greatness. So he's saying that you balance this show

2:58

out, and then he goes on to say this

3:00

episode is gold. When

3:02

I called him a lost connoisseur, I was

3:04

just saying that because his picks were so bad.

3:06

But then he said he actually goes to

3:09

the losing team's locker room after the end

3:11

of the finals. Wow, Michael

3:13

really is a connoisseur of

3:15

else Michael, So where do we start? Okay,

3:18

you've got two options, as I see it here, We've

3:20

been podcasting for a long time. You really got two

3:22

options. One you can go

3:24

right back at these Lakers fans and throw them

3:26

some more red meat too. You

3:28

could try to politely tip your cap

3:31

and say congratulations to the Lakers.

3:33

You guys made it through the gauntlet

3:35

of the bubble. Which door are you

3:38

going through? So I'm gonna

3:40

try to thread this

3:42

needle as delicately as possible

3:44

and and kick down both doors

3:46

if I may. Um, I'll

3:49

start just by saying that, you

3:51

know, congratulations as I said in the last episode

3:53

many times to the Los Angeles Lakers, and

3:56

Lebron is uh, if not

3:58

the best player of all time, the second best player of

4:00

all time and still basically in his

4:02

prime. And so

4:05

you know, it's really difficult to even judge uh

4:09

uh to to to put like a fine point

4:11

on where he is historically, and he might uh

4:14

universally past your beloved Michael

4:17

Jordan's in a Lakers jersey at

4:19

some point over the next few years. So now

4:21

you're just gonna me. That's gonna be your needle

4:24

strategy is to just get me so angry I

4:26

flip out for forty five minutes. Is that's what happening,

4:28

Michael. Yes, So I'm I'm

4:30

willing to concede all of this. Uh.

4:32

And I as maybe

4:35

people no or don't know,

4:37

but I wrote many wonderful

4:40

complimentary things about Anthony Davis

4:43

throughout this run. I thought that he was the

4:46

best player in the playoffs and the

4:48

best player in the bubble, and I

4:51

would argue that he's the best player in the world right

4:53

now. So all

4:55

of that, you know, we'll we'll, we'll accept

4:58

all of that and say that, you know, again,

5:00

hats off to the Lakers. UM,

5:02

I will say, just to

5:05

Kyle's email, I'm honored

5:08

that he is comparing Kobe

5:10

Bryant to Isaiah Thomas

5:13

and their impacts on their organ

5:15

respective organizations. That's just an

5:17

incredible compliment

5:19

to I t who was in Boston for

5:22

two and a half seasons. Um. And

5:25

uh, you know, I want to also say

5:27

that, Uh, Anthony Davis Sr.

5:30

Who is the gentleman

5:33

Anthony Davis's father, who suggested

5:35

that one of the reasons why

5:37

Anthony Davis would never go to the

5:40

Boston Celtics was because um

5:43

of Danny Ainge's decision

5:45

to trade Isaiah Thomas. UM.

5:48

And I think that that is I've always thought

5:50

that was a little silly because you know, Uh,

5:53

if Anthony Davis Sr. Was so much about

5:55

loyalty, I don't think he would have been

5:57

fine with his son punting a year

6:00

of his prime and turning his back on the organization

6:02

that drafted him. I just want to throw that out there.

6:04

Um, but this is all water under the bridge.

6:07

And UM, you know, the

6:09

Los Angeles Lakers have a history of you

6:11

know, firing Mitch cup Check, who's the beloved,

6:14

beloved architect of several championship

6:17

teams, having a bad relationship with Jerry

6:19

West, who was an all time Laker legend

6:21

to this day. UM, and

6:24

Magic Johnson going back and talking about

6:26

him and his love with the Lakers. You know, we're

6:29

a little over a year removed from him

6:31

saying that he felt betrayed by Rob

6:33

Polinka. Uh, the word betrayal

6:36

was out of Magic Johnson's mouth. UM

6:38

and uh and the Lakers organization.

6:41

So you know, Uh, there's

6:43

a lot of factors here. There's a lot of nuance

6:45

to be said. Um, but congratulations

6:47

to the Los Angeles Lakers on winning their

6:50

seventeenth championship, even though you know a

6:52

few of them were in the great state

6:54

of Minnesota. Wow. Wow,

6:57

Wow, you just cannot help yourself whatsoever,

7:00

and you, um, well, we're gonna get another round of emails.

7:02

Fantastic. Um. I'm almost afraid

7:04

to ask this next question, but I do think that

7:07

this might help explain our our earlier

7:09

podcast and our reaction trying to put that

7:11

title into context. I didn't think we

7:13

were being that hard on the Lakers on the last

7:15

episode, but maybe the Lakers fans are just so

7:17

happy they're feeling insatiable right now. UM.

7:20

I guess the way I was looking at it was

7:22

they were completely worthy champions. They

7:24

wiped away the conversation about asters. To

7:27

me, they beat all the teams

7:29

that were in front of them pretty handily, and

7:31

they had the two best players in the bubble. So those

7:33

are all things that you really can't take away from them.

7:36

At the same time, if you do compare them to some

7:38

other recent champions, it's hard

7:40

to look at their three through fifteen and

7:42

feel like, Okay, this is on the

7:44

same level of teams that, uh, you

7:46

know, we've seen here in the recent past. So

7:49

Aaron just kind of asked the money question. He says,

7:51

how do you rank the Lakers against the champions

7:54

of the past decade? All credit goes

7:56

to them for winning the championship, However, on a team

7:58

that's composed of two top five players and everyone

8:00

else's replacement level talent, I

8:02

think this team has to be down near the bottom,

8:04

right, And I think, um,

8:07

you know another critical point. I went back

8:09

through and did this this morning, in terms

8:11

of the worst teams to make the finals in the

8:13

last ten years, I think the Miami

8:16

Heat with especially with the injury issues,

8:18

but even without the injury issues, I think they are

8:20

the worst team, um, of any

8:22

of the twenty finalists teams since two thousand

8:25

and ten. Do you agree with me there? Yeah,

8:29

um, I don't. I mean no disrespect

8:31

to the Miami Heat. There's I mean, we're talking about teams

8:33

that make it to the finals, so it's like these you

8:36

know, you're being compared against some

8:38

of the greatest teams of all time. But yeah,

8:41

I would say that the Miami Heat just based

8:43

on the fact that they were a five

8:45

seed, based on the fact that they

8:48

um had the lowest

8:51

net rating during the regular season compared

8:53

to all the other teams that reached the finals. Um

8:57

yeah, I mean they're like,

8:59

yeah, it's not top five guy. You know, Jimmy's

9:01

you know, in that ten range, right, But they don't have a top

9:03

five player. You look at all the teams that have lost in

9:05

the finals in the last ten years, they usually

9:07

have a Lebron right, or they have a Tim Duncan,

9:10

or they have a Steph Curry. Um, there's

9:12

you know, Kevin Durant. Yeah yeah,

9:15

so, um yeah, exactly. I think that there's

9:18

not really a lot of competition there. I asked that question

9:20

to set up this one about the Lakers because I do

9:22

think that's important context. I mean, you can beat

9:25

a team handily, like they did for the Miami

9:27

Heat, but you know, if you're comparing that to the

9:29

seventy three win Warriors team from a few years

9:31

ago, or some of the other teams that have lost

9:33

the titles, even the two thousand and fourteen Heat that lost

9:36

the title, I don't think that there's really any

9:38

comparison. So when we do do the

9:40

the champions from the last ten years, I'm

9:43

gonna give you my list of teams I think

9:45

are definitively better than

9:47

the Lakers, and tell me if you agree. Okay,

9:50

I think we have to start with all three

9:52

Warriors titles. You know, two thousand

9:54

and seventeen was probably the best one, but

9:57

I think they're definitely better. I think the

9:59

two thousand and eighteen inversion is definitely

10:01

better. I think the two thousand fifteen

10:03

original Warriors, Um,

10:05

although they had the hardest time getting through

10:07

it, I think that they were definitely better. Um.

10:11

I look at the two thousand sixteen Cavaliers

10:14

and say that that team

10:16

had a you know, a more impressive run.

10:19

Uh. You can get into a real conversation could this

10:21

version of Lebron beat that version of Lebron?

10:23

But I think ultimately like the physical

10:26

attributes that Lebron had available in two thousand

10:28

and sixteen probably outweigh the

10:30

mental edge he has now. So I'll take the

10:32

two thousand and sixteen Cavaliers, I

10:34

will take the two thousand and fourteen Spurs

10:37

um over um, you

10:39

know, these Lakers. And then I'll

10:41

also take both of the Heat titles in

10:43

two thousand twelve and two thousand thirteen

10:46

over these Lakers. Just in terms of they had

10:48

the big threes. You're talking about good matchups

10:50

for Anthony Davis. I actually think Chris Bosh is a pretty

10:53

darn good matchup for Anthony Davis if they had to come

10:55

to head. And I also think that this

10:57

version of Lebron compared to the Heat

11:00

is Lebron has a massive,

11:02

massive mental edge, um and just in

11:04

terms of experience and game management

11:07

and all those other things. So that leaves

11:09

me with these three teams Michael Lakers,

11:12

the twenty nineteen Raptors, and the two

11:14

thousand and eleven Mavericks kind of as the bottom

11:17

three. And I was hoping you could, first

11:19

of all, do you agree with the seven that I mentioned, and

11:21

then how would you rank those

11:23

three that I have left. I

11:26

do agree with everything you said, and I

11:28

also think that you know some of the

11:30

teams that well. First of all, it's really

11:32

difficult to compare

11:35

teams that had a previous iteration of Lebron

11:37

James on them too. Vision

11:41

It's like wine, right, or like you know, sneakers,

11:43

which is your favorite Jordan's sneaker? You know,

11:45

it's like, all right, well these are all just vintages

11:48

exactly. So, uh, you know that

11:50

said, I think you did a pretty good job with it.

11:52

Um, Like,

11:56

so the Raptors, let's stay Here's

11:58

what else is complicated here. I mean the two thousand

12:00

and eleven Mavericks were like playing a different sport

12:03

than the two thousand twenty Lakers, right, I mean

12:05

stylistically, So if you're trying to do like the matchup

12:07

game, it's like, yeah, Anthony Davis is gonna

12:09

be a handful for Dirk Nafitzki, right. But

12:12

um, at the same time, the Lakers benefit

12:14

from like nine years of advancement and strategy

12:16

and philosophy, and our mindset is

12:18

going to be in a mindset, so it's difficult

12:20

to kind of get back into like what the sport was

12:23

like. Inn So that

12:25

that particular comparison is very

12:27

tricky. Um, but needless

12:30

to say, go ahead and break this down. No,

12:32

Yeah, I was about to say, like, how

12:34

are we going to compare

12:37

a team like the MAVs. MAVs

12:39

where it's like, you know, they were running pick

12:41

and pops with Dirk and defenses

12:45

were just like flummixed by the strategy.

12:48

Today, it's like that's a pretty basic

12:50

thing that would get would get blooded

12:52

out, especially with someone like a d on

12:54

the floor, you can switch everywhere

12:57

and just completely blow that strategy up.

12:59

I don't think there's any way

13:01

Lakers losing those eleven Mavericks. If

13:03

you've got Lebron, who's over

13:06

you know, the whatever you want to call the choke

13:09

or the shrinking from the moment

13:11

or whatever people called it back in two thousand eleven.

13:14

If you've got this version of Lebron

13:16

plus Anthony Davis, the ultimate Dirk

13:18

stopper, uh, you know arc maybe

13:21

in modern NBA history, right, if you're gonna take any

13:23

guy to go against Dirk, he's probably your guy with

13:25

the length to challenge those fadeaways and speeding

13:28

quickness and all that. Um, I

13:30

would put the Lakers over them. Would

13:32

you do the same? I think I

13:34

would, because I mean Mark Cuban even

13:36

came out and said that this version of Lebron in twenty

13:39

is just so much different than the version that

13:42

those Mavericks defeated,

13:44

so a thousand percent. I mean, you

13:47

know, like drill down too much into

13:50

that. But there were some shaky

13:52

performances in two thousand eleven, and a lot of people

13:54

wanted to defend Lebron, by the way, because there was

13:56

so much like non basketball fan

13:58

criticism of his performance and the

14:00

general calmness were coming in and saying, all,

14:02

this guy's not build four, he doesn't have what

14:04

it takes. It's all that. It's like, Okay,

14:07

obviously those critics went too far. But

14:09

if you go back and watch those last couple of games in

14:11

the finals, like, it's just a different guy

14:13

and he's completely shook. Looked a lot

14:15

like Jayson Tatum in some of the late game moments

14:18

of this year's Eastern Conference finals. To be honest,

14:21

uh no, I

14:23

mean, it's an honor to have. Again, like comparing

14:25

a Celtic to an all time great. It's just it's

14:28

it's it's a pleasure to hear. But I

14:30

do think that you know, if if these two

14:32

teams were to match up, um,

14:34

obviously you have this version of Lebron is a

14:36

post game. This version of Lebron is

14:39

like a three point marksman. Like

14:41

every time I don't know about you, but every time Lebron

14:43

pulled up for three in the finals,

14:46

I expected it to go in. Uh.

14:48

That was definitely not the case. In two thousand

14:50

eleven win teams were just ducking under screens

14:53

religiously to hope that he would pull up for a jump

14:55

shot. UM. And I also

14:57

think that if these two teams were to face off

14:59

against each other there that Tyson Chandler

15:01

would just get like played off the floor. And Tyson

15:04

Chandler is like he

15:06

was critical to that Dallas Matterix team. He

15:08

was arguably the second most important player. So

15:11

it's really no question to me. I think the Lakers

15:14

are are better than the two thousand eleven Dallas

15:16

Mavericks. UM. Well, that sets up

15:18

the most interesting comparison I think is

15:21

nineteen Raptors versus Lakers,

15:24

because you've got two teams that are built around

15:26

defense. You've got Lebron versus

15:28

Kauai and the matchup that we didn't get this year

15:30

that we all kind of wanted. You've got

15:32

some length in the front court ibaka

15:35

Marcusol. You know the Raptors

15:37

can go really big, they can go small,

15:40

just like the Lakers can. You've got

15:42

Danny Green cloned on both teams,

15:44

like ready, willing and able to miss

15:47

important shots either way. UM,

15:49

You've got Lowry as kind of this major X

15:51

factor positionally where UM, you know

15:53

he's going to have a matchup advantage for sure.

15:56

UM and then you've got Sam again with

15:58

some length to try to do some been on Anthony Davis.

16:00

Will that's probably not gonna end super well

16:03

for him. Where do you come down on that

16:05

series? Oh,

16:07

this is a tough one. Um.

16:11

I mean I I I leaned towards

16:13

the Raptors winning. To be honest

16:16

with you, I think that Raptors

16:18

team had so much depth. They

16:20

had so much more uh

16:24

stylistic versatility

16:26

and how they could play and how they could beat you. And

16:30

I just like, if the game wasn't

16:32

attract meet, the Raptors could play

16:34

that way. If the game was in a half court situation,

16:37

the Raptors could play that way. The

16:39

Raptors could go big, they could go small.

16:41

I think that last year's

16:44

Kawhi Leonard in that in that postseason

16:47

is a better player than this

16:50

year's Lebron James. And I don't really

16:52

think that that is all that controversial

16:55

of a statement. I also

16:57

think that the body is that the

16:59

Toronto Aptors would have to

17:01

throw at Anthony Davis and make his life

17:04

really difficult. Are there with a

17:06

bacca with gasol? Who?

17:08

I mean, the gasol from that championship

17:11

team is so much different than the Gasol, who

17:13

just was a complete non factor in

17:15

the bubble. Uh and

17:19

who again the SIA com last

17:21

year with Kauahi Leonard as

17:23

the primary option on offense,

17:26

was just a different player than

17:28

the one that we saw this year who flamed

17:30

out again in the bubble. So

17:34

I think that Lebron and a d still

17:36

get their's individually. I don't

17:38

think that they are unlocking um

17:42

so much attention away that allows

17:44

guys like k c P and

17:47

Playoff Rondo and Caruso

17:50

and anyone else who was a role

17:52

player on this team to have success. So

17:55

eileen towards the Raptors in a really

17:57

tight series. But like again, at the

17:59

end of the day, it honestly comes

18:01

down to the fact that I think Kawai Leonard is the best player

18:04

in that series. It's so close.

18:06

I mean, I think it's going seven either way. Um

18:08

I I definitely think we could say that the two

18:11

thousand nineteen Raptors would be a much

18:13

bigger defensive challenge for the Lakers

18:15

than any team they faced in this year's Bubble, because

18:18

of the front court length, because of the versatility,

18:21

because of the presence of Kauai um

18:23

The Lakers just really didn't face

18:26

any of that, right, I mean you go back and look at

18:28

you know, the very best defenders individually they

18:30

had to deal with were p J.

18:32

Tucker, Jimmy Butler, and

18:35

an injured Bam Right. Uh,

18:37

Toronto has more defensive talent combined

18:40

on their roster than the four teams that the

18:42

Lakers went through. So that's like one way

18:44

to look at it. That's pretty daunting,

18:47

you know. At the same time, I think we realized

18:49

late in the final series and late in a couple of the other series

18:51

too, that Lebron was pacing himself a little bit.

18:54

So does he have higher gears that he could

18:56

have achieved and sustained over

18:58

the course of a series against Toronto that we has never

19:00

really had to see because uh, he

19:02

didn't get pushed to the absolute limit. I

19:04

think that's possible. I also think that in

19:06

a seven game series against Toronto, it's like, if a D

19:09

is not excellent, they have no shot in

19:11

that particular game, right, And a D

19:13

wasn't excellent every single night. He had occasional

19:15

op nights here and there, and so those would be like automatic

19:18

losses against Toronto. Um,

19:20

So you add it all up, I think I'm

19:22

actually with you. I think I would take Raptors and seven

19:24

there, but it's really close, and

19:26

um, so that winds up putting I guess on

19:28

our list the Lakers ninth out

19:30

of the tenth? I mean, are we being too mean

19:32

here? Um? And also

19:35

you know, looking ahead, like how how

19:38

convinced are you that they should be installed

19:40

as the title favorites for next season? Who?

19:43

I mean, I do not think

19:46

we're being too hush again, because look,

19:48

we're ranking champions like someone's

19:51

got to be the worst, someone's gotta be the second worst.

19:53

Sorry, Um,

19:56

I do think that. Uh.

19:58

First of all, you made a really good point about out Lebron

20:01

and how he

20:03

was kind of pacing himself throughout the entire playoffs

20:06

for the finals when he

20:08

really didn't even need to go to a different

20:10

level if that was something that the Lakers

20:13

called upon him to do. Um,

20:16

And I wrote about that at at g Q, just

20:19

about how his minutes were so

20:21

low throughout the playoffs in a way that we've

20:23

never really seen before. But he

20:25

was a better rebounder than ever before. He

20:28

had the highest two

20:30

point field goal percentage of his postseason

20:32

career, third highest true shooting, Uh.

20:35

So I think that that aspect

20:37

is kind of interesting when we're looking

20:39

at what Lebron did versus what he still could have done

20:41

because of the minutes restriction that he was on

20:44

UM unofficially or whatever, but he

20:46

was playing fewer minutes UM.

20:49

And so far as whether or not

20:51

they should be the titled favorites, I mean

20:55

a lot is undecided

20:57

with regards to free

20:59

agency and trades that are going

21:01

to be made, I think for sure, UM,

21:03

I think that the teams that we thought

21:06

were championship contenders that didn't make it to the

21:08

finals, we'll have something to say. The

21:10

Celtics, the Bucks or

21:13

whatever team you honest is on the Clippers

21:15

for sure, with Kahi Leonard and Paul

21:17

George, assuming they're still teammates.

21:19

UM. And then there's other There's like a

21:22

few other teams, UM, particularly

21:24

in the Western Conference that I think, UH

21:27

can be substantially better

21:29

than they were this season. So well,

21:31

thank you for saying that, because look, you're setting

21:33

up Thaddeus's question perfectly. UM.

21:37

He writes, UH, the heat no doubt,

21:39

caught lightning at a bottle and had guys rise to

21:41

the occasion. But I think the characterization of

21:43

the Denver Nuggets. UM is

21:46

a bit off. They were three seed who beat a

21:48

two seeds, so technically they did overachieve.

21:51

The perception that the Lakers and Clippers were juggernauts

21:53

made it feel like everybody else was in a distant

21:55

chase. But we should give the Nuggets some

21:58

respect. Teams complaining about in trees

22:00

is a common NBAH rope, but Will Barton not

22:02

playing definitely needs to be noted. He

22:04

was their third best player all season and they look like

22:06

a different team in the first round. When Gary Harris

22:09

returned, I'd imagine his presence would

22:11

have really helped with the scoring load when Jamal

22:13

Murray was resting. Um. They've been a

22:15

two seed and a three seed in the last two playoffs,

22:18

and they have the pieces to make a real move

22:20

if they desire. I still think the Lakers

22:22

have to be the clear favorites heading into one,

22:25

but a team like the Nuggets couldn't they join

22:27

the non Laker contender tier. And

22:29

then he says, throwing a potential upgraded

22:31

Dallas team and a revamped Warriors team,

22:34

and the West might resemble the East a little bit

22:36

as a wide open conference. And that's

22:38

sort of where I was getting at with this idea of Lakers

22:40

as a favorites. Um, they deserve to be the

22:42

favorites to me, because they just won the title. They're

22:44

going to bring all the important pieces back, and they're gonna

22:46

have the opportunity to upgrade their roster, and they're

22:49

gonna be a very attractive destination

22:52

for one year free agent deals, Like, no

22:54

question about that, right, Um. But

22:56

I also think that much

22:58

like this season saw a leveling of the superstar

23:01

talent across the league, right, everybody was

23:03

just pairing off two by two by two

23:05

Westbrook and Heart and Paul George and Kawhi

23:07

Leonard, Kevin Duran and Kyrie Irving,

23:10

Ben Goliver and Michael Pena. It was just a lot

23:12

of pairing going on right all around the league

23:14

that just kind of flattened that race out and

23:16

made it a little bit less predictable to start.

23:19

Um, last season, I think we're going to

23:21

see that same uh sensation

23:23

this year, if not more. Right, And

23:26

so when I'm saying how many teams are there

23:28

potentially in a contender conversation,

23:30

what number starts to percolate

23:32

for you, like at this point, and of course there's gonna

23:35

be free agency, which probably cuts some teams

23:37

down, maybe boost some other teams up. But

23:39

is it crazy to think eight nine,

23:42

ten teams including Thaddeus Is,

23:44

Denver Nuggets here have a chance to be in this mix?

23:47

Not at all? Uh. You know, heading into last

23:49

season, I thought that a third of

23:51

the league could view themselves

23:54

as legitimate championship contenders and

23:57

operate as such. So, you know, heading into

23:59

a trade deadline and you know, you look

24:01

to upgrade, you look to trade away future assets

24:03

because you think that this run

24:06

could be yours for the taking. I

24:08

think that that's exactly what we're

24:10

going to see in two thousand twenty one as well. And

24:13

you know there's some teams that we always

24:16

forget about that should be you

24:18

know, they'll be operating as title

24:20

contenders and they'll be operating with

24:23

enough talent, I think, to make

24:26

you know, lengthy, legitimate

24:28

playoff runs. And you know, some of those teams

24:30

that we haven't mentioned this episode

24:32

are like the Brooklyn Nets, who have a lot of question

24:35

marks. For sure, there's going to be you

24:37

know, their roster right now is not going to be what the roster

24:39

looks like an opening day, and it's not

24:41

going to be what the roster looks like after the trade deadline.

24:44

But at the end of the day, if you have healthy

24:46

Kevin Durant, I'm sorry, you're you're a championship

24:49

contender. Like that's just how the NBA works.

24:51

If you have healthy Kyrie Irving with Kevin

24:53

Durant, you're a championship contender. That doesn't mean

24:55

that you're going to even get out of the second round.

24:58

Nothing's promised, but you have

25:00

to. I think if you have a

25:02

healthy Kevin Durant, you're a contender. If you

25:04

have Kyrie Irving tagging

25:07

along with Kevin Durant, you're not a contender.

25:09

Is that too harsh?

25:12

Um, it's a little harsh, I think.

25:14

But I'd like to see them on the court before

25:17

I make any further commentary. Okay,

25:19

well, and here here's what I want to do. Let's go team by team

25:21

and just give me thumbs up or thumbs down. Milwaukee Bucks

25:23

title contender, Yes, Toronto

25:26

Raptors. Sure,

25:30

it's a tough one. Man. It really

25:32

depends on who they lose. And yeah,

25:37

yeah, but I'm assuming they keep Van Fleet. But

25:39

if they lose some of the front court pieces, then you

25:41

know, probably not so to me, they're kind of a maybe.

25:44

Boston Celtics. Yes,

25:47

I guess what, I hard agree with you. Yes,

25:50

absolutely, Miami Heat.

25:55

I mean I have to say, yes, right there

25:58

are there are maybe to me, honestly, Piladelphia

26:00

seventies Sixers no, wow,

26:03

I love it me neither, Brooklyn Nets, Yes,

26:06

yeah, there are maybe to me as well. Um, all

26:09

right, Atlanta Hawks, No, just kidding,

26:11

all right. So I think that's that's pretty much the east

26:13

field. L A Lakers obviously,

26:15

yes, l A Clippers, Yes,

26:18

Denver Nuggets, Yes, I

26:21

agree because of Jamal Murray stepping up

26:23

here and they have the ability to kind of make some make

26:25

some tweaks as Daddy has mentioned. Houston

26:28

Rockets. I'm

26:30

you know, you want to have

26:32

to win the title right now, right here, right now, I'll

26:34

do it. I want to see

26:37

I want to see who they hire as their

26:39

head coach. That's pretty important. Um.

26:41

But you know I'm a tentative. Yes right

26:43

now, i'd say maybe they're um

26:46

Utah Jazz. So

26:49

I actually have them on my list here as a team

26:51

that should be functioning as a as a championship

26:53

contender. And I

26:56

have some question marks about Rudy

26:58

Gobert and you know, just

27:01

every postseason there's an issue. But

27:04

what Donovan Mitchell did in that first round was

27:06

just like, oh my god, Like this player is

27:09

just going to be so special for years to come. He could

27:11

win the scoring title next year and I wouldn't

27:13

blink. So I just I

27:15

have to say yes to the Jazz. As

27:18

a Western Conference elitist who

27:21

believes that many years the Western Conference

27:23

Finals are the true finals. The Utah

27:25

Jazz are contenders in the sense

27:27

that like they could do what the

27:29

Nuggets and Blazers did the last two years, make

27:31

the conference finals and basically hang a banner

27:33

for that right because they're

27:35

not like real contenders, but they're

27:38

you know, like their Western Conference Finals

27:40

contenders. I'll give them a maybe,

27:42

but I don't see them as true contenders.

27:44

Um, what about the Dallas Mavericks. Now

27:48

I can't go there, there there with them yet because

27:52

there's just too many questions. This

27:54

is where we disagree. I think that

27:56

I think there maybe, I'm not gonna say yes, but they're

27:58

in the maybe like they're in there that second tier.

28:01

Um, what about the Portland Trailblazers. I

28:05

mean, no, Zach

28:07

Collins back Kack, Carmelo

28:09

Anthony back dream team.

28:11

Uh No, I I can't. I can't.

28:14

I love the Portland Trailblazers. I love

28:17

I love Dame. He is one of my favorite players.

28:19

Um he just yeah, No,

28:21

I can't. I can't go there. I

28:24

can't do it. I'm sorry. Neither can either, can

28:26

I? So that sounded to me like maybe seven,

28:28

yes is five? Maybe something like

28:31

well wait, wait wait, so the team that you

28:34

didn't you didn't name one of the contenders. Who's

28:37

that? Orlando Magic? No, the Golden

28:39

State Warriors. Oh, Golden State Warriors. My

28:41

bad. I didn't scroll all the way down to the

28:43

very bottom of the Western Conference. Um,

28:45

they're in the maybe category to me. I know a lot

28:47

of people are really a lot of people are really

28:50

high on them, bouncing all the way back. Um,

28:53

this all comes down to my thorough disappointment

28:55

in Draymond green season last year. And I understand

28:58

it was a gap year for him,

29:00

but I just spent like five years

29:02

being his number one defender and the press

29:04

and that season was rough. So I

29:06

just want to see the full turnaround.

29:08

You know, everybody talks about this v with the stock

29:10

market, right or the economy I want to see

29:12

the full Draymond Green v That's what

29:14

I want to see next year, and then I'll put them in that conversation.

29:17

Without that, I don't see it. I

29:20

think you have to call them contenders

29:22

like they have, Like

29:25

Steph could be the MVP next year. Um

29:28

healthy, Clay Thompson, I completely

29:30

ignore what Draymond did last year. I think

29:32

that coming off of five

29:34

straight finals appearances and then

29:37

you know, Katie leaves and Steph

29:40

gets hurt in like the fourth game of the season,

29:42

and I like, I just don't blame that

29:45

for being a really difficult situation for him,

29:47

and I thought how he navigated it was actually pretty

29:49

admirable. Um, but you

29:51

you just you you add in um

29:53

the fact that they have this draft pick and what

29:55

they do with the draft pick, I think

29:58

that they're they've got to be consider at

30:00

a contender. Got it. Well, We've got

30:02

a big field that's to take away here, and I think that it

30:04

makes him more interesting heading into next

30:06

year. Alright, we got one other question from Daddy, as

30:08

he says, Lebron winning is fantastic

30:11

for his legacy, and at this moment,

30:13

he's probably the favorite to get his fifth title.

30:16

Next year, does this uh

30:18

sway your opinion of the greatest of all

30:20

time debate at all? Where

30:22

does he stand between him and Michael

30:24

Jordan's. So he's asking a very

30:27

you know, timely but kind of obvious question. I

30:29

know a lot of people dove into. I think Zach Low wrote

30:31

about it again and some others. This

30:33

is always on my mind, of course. Um,

30:36

you're hinting at it earlier this episode that maybe

30:38

Lebron's getting there. What does

30:40

the fourth title do for him in that

30:42

goat debate? For you, Michael, I

30:46

mean it helps obviously, you

30:48

know if he if

30:50

he didn't win the title, then

30:52

he would have been further away from I mean,

30:54

it's just like that's common sense. But um,

30:58

I think I've taken the stance and I'm

31:00

going to take the stance from here on out where

31:02

I don't really want to engage

31:05

with this question too seriously until

31:07

Lebron like wraps

31:10

up his career. I think that that's like

31:12

fair here. Um, you're

31:15

in your early thirties, right, I'm seventeen.

31:17

Actually you could be fifty

31:20

by the time you're you're really willing to engage

31:22

with the most important question in basketball analysis.

31:24

I mean, come on, no, I mean I'm here

31:27

for it, like I'm at backing down.

31:29

Um but I just think that when

31:32

you look at how successful

31:35

Lebron has been throughout his career, how

31:37

his career playoff

31:39

numbers, just war if everybody else's

31:42

like, how do you measure that

31:45

versus peak versus

31:47

the championship figure versus

31:49

like, there's just so many different things, and

31:52

um, I you know, I'm

31:55

coming off of a

31:57

bubble championship that I

31:59

have spent like weeks disparaging,

32:02

so directly,

32:04

it's like I count

32:07

that is a fourth championship obviously,

32:11

but I just don't. And maybe someone

32:13

would come back at me and say, you know, uh,

32:16

Jordans won this, you

32:18

know, Title X with an easier

32:21

run than or and as easy run

32:23

as Lebron's, uh to get

32:25

his fourth. I don't see

32:28

it that way really, But any

32:30

of the six teams that Jordan's beat in

32:32

the finals are beating those Miami heat I

32:35

mean that's there's no question sure.

32:37

Um so so yeah, it's like

32:40

he's closer, he might have already passed

32:43

him. I don't really know. I really

32:45

really don't have a definitive answer

32:48

here. I do think that once Lebron

32:50

retires, he'll be the best player ever.

32:53

Uh So I guess that is my like

32:55

the closest thing I can get to concrete here. Um.

32:58

But right now where we stand to it's

33:01

still pretty much a coin flip for me. Um.

33:04

Well, it's a coin flip for me, but MJ's

33:06

heads on both sides of the coin. Um. I'm

33:09

still taking my um. And

33:11

look, I gave this a lot of thought. Actually on

33:13

my flight home was a long flight from Orlando

33:15

to l A. And I was thinking,

33:17

you know, the champagne was so

33:19

fun and it felt like, you know, I actually kind

33:22

of graduated college early, so I didn't get to have

33:24

that last day of college feel with everybody

33:26

else. So the bubble almost made

33:28

up for that. And I'll be honest, I kind of shut down

33:30

pretty early my senior year in high school. I mean

33:32

I was my mind was elsewhere, probably starting

33:34

in February, so I never really had

33:36

that great like last day of school memory.

33:39

That's exactly what the bubble felt like. And I finally

33:42

knew what everybody was talking about, and all those sitcoms

33:44

from over the years and all those movies, It's like, oh,

33:46

this is what they mean, right, so truly

33:49

memorable celebration, UM

33:52

and just a really fun night. And I thought, Hunt

33:54

there's ever a moment that might like sway me

33:56

and like get to my emotions, this

33:58

one would be it. But I think when you're

34:00

you're emphasizing the g and the goat, right,

34:02

the greatest you have to look to, you

34:05

know, Michael compared to his contemporaries,

34:07

how basketball luminaries

34:09

describe him, what kind of esteem and reverence

34:11

they hold him in, UM, his

34:14

his lasting legacy on and off the court

34:16

in terms of dominating culture and still selling

34:18

sneakers twenty five years later and still having

34:20

high selling jerseys, and the

34:23

absolute mastery in critical

34:25

moments. How many players have

34:27

followed in his footsteps and wanted to be just

34:30

like him, including Lebron you know,

34:32

wearing twenty three. He has

34:34

a huge advantage in terms of being first to market,

34:36

and then that's going to always be there from a nostalgia

34:38

standpoint and from uh, just you

34:41

know, the masses. And I think the one other aspect

34:43

that he definitely has a big advantage on is

34:46

is um fame ratings

34:49

awareness, And it's it's hard to imagine

34:51

that because we are so immersed

34:53

in this Lebron centric society, as you

34:55

know NBA analysts, But Michael

34:57

Jordan was a much much bigger deal because

35:00

there was fewer competing deals. Right,

35:02

there's no video games, there's no social

35:04

media. I guess that there were video

35:07

games, but they weren't, you know, as advanced

35:09

as they are currently. There was fewer professional sports

35:11

on television. There were a few fewer sports period.

35:14

Jordan was just on the list of the

35:16

very most famous people in the world, and

35:18

Lebron is probably the most famous

35:21

American athlete right now. But there's a

35:23

gap there between the two of them. I just think

35:25

that Jordan reached more people. Um

35:27

So, I don't know. When I look at great it's

35:30

on court, it's off court, it's legacy, it's

35:32

uh, it's fame, it's the emotional

35:35

connection that he had with people, the

35:37

worship culture that he created that

35:39

Lebron has never quite ascended to.

35:41

All those things count to me. So I'm still taking Mike.

35:44

Can I bring up two things.

35:48

Number one, how

35:50

do you factor in the pressure that

35:53

Lebron faced, because in my

35:55

opinion, it's not even comparable. Um,

35:59

And that is that's like not to Jordan's detriment

36:02

necessarily or not Jordan's fault. You know,

36:04

he came up in the air that he came up in. But

36:07

Lebron's on the cover of Sports Illustrated

36:10

as a high school player. He's having his

36:12

high school games broadcast on ESPN.

36:15

UM. Him driving a hummer

36:18

is like the leading story on CNN

36:21

for a day. UM.

36:23

I just think like the expectations

36:25

for Lebron were just

36:28

sky high through the roof, and he

36:31

smashed them. I think that that is ridiculous.

36:34

Honestly, I think that that is one of the most incredible

36:37

things about him, and no

36:40

one could have Here's here's how I look at it.

36:43

You know, we're not going to see a player better

36:45

than Lebron in my lifetime. I'll

36:47

just put it that way, right, And I don't think that we're

36:49

ever going to see a player handle

36:52

the scrutiny and the attention

36:54

and last is long and continue to find

36:57

ways to improve, and continue to find ways

36:59

to maximize his ability and change

37:01

the nature of free agency and do all the other things

37:03

that Lebron's done. We're never going to find someone who's

37:05

done that. But I still think at Jordan's

37:08

peak of fame, he was still orders

37:10

of magnitude more famous than

37:13

Lebron and getting orders of magnitude more attention

37:16

than Lebron. Now, it was in different ways, right Obviously,

37:18

you know, the social media stuff makes a big difference.

37:20

It just means you're on people's mind constantly

37:23

seven five, and Lebron has

37:25

pretty masterfully leaned into that and

37:27

opened himself up almost you know, like behind

37:29

the scenes look, giving people the type

37:31

of access to himself that everyone always

37:34

craved from Jordan and it never got so

37:36

to me, that's a little bit of a generational

37:39

gap, right, But I also think that

37:41

Lebron got all of that hype early because

37:43

he was the biggest, fastest, strongest,

37:45

smartest and most focused high school

37:47

player that we had ever seen,

37:50

right, And so he

37:52

I mean, he hit his peak potential,

37:55

but he had an awful lot of gifts that helped him

37:57

get there. And I give him credit for keeping

37:59

his head on straight and having really good advisors

38:01

around him and making pretty shrewd decisions

38:03

along the way and uh flexing

38:05

his leverage when he needed to. I mean, he made a lot

38:08

of really important, um calculated

38:10

decisions to kind of get to where he is

38:12

now with four titles. Um.

38:14

But I also think there was a reason why

38:16

he was called the chosen One on Sports Illustrated,

38:18

like, you know, I mean, the biggest, fastest, strongest,

38:21

and smartest. That's a pretty impressive package for

38:23

a kid who's sixteen years old. And

38:25

it's nice that the story ended this way, Um,

38:27

no question, But I'm

38:29

not convinced by that pressure argument and

38:32

the idea that Michael Jordan, you know, can't walk outside

38:34

and has to stay in his hotel room for an entire

38:36

season straight, and when when he

38:38

beats the Jazz in Utah, like

38:41

there's people screaming like he's

38:43

the Beatles, you know. Um, it's just

38:45

a different scene than what we're seeing

38:47

with with the modern NBA today. And it's not any

38:50

current NBA player's fault. I just

38:52

think that the league had a different role in society

38:54

back then, in part in a large part because

38:57

of Michael Jordan's right, But

38:59

I think it you have to then bring

39:01

up the fact that Jordan needed to

39:03

take a break from the sport, right.

39:05

So I don't

39:07

love that argument. Man, his dad was tragically

39:10

murdered, and I know people want to re um,

39:13

you know, re argue that or say, okay,

39:15

well it was he already planning it and everything

39:17

else. Like you

39:20

know me, I'm the greatest ability as availability

39:22

guy. But like I will make a pass if a

39:24

guy's father is killed, I

39:27

think just say he can handle that. He

39:29

can handle that situation however he wants

39:31

to handle it. I'm not going to be holding it against

39:33

him. And I also think like Lebron's best

39:35

argument in this debate is the

39:38

longevity factor, right, And I do

39:40

think that when you look at other greats

39:43

who have had amazing longevity, Criminable,

39:45

Jabbar Karl Malone are the first two to come

39:47

to mind. Even John Stockton comes to mind

39:49

my one of my personal favorites. I

39:52

think in general, the consensus

39:55

doesn't value longevity maybe

39:57

as much as it should. Um. I think those

39:59

guys are all probably slightly underrated

40:02

historically because maybe they're their

40:04

peak years or their prime years, or them being

40:06

the number one guy or whatever however you want to frame

40:08

that wasn't as dominant as

40:10

somebody like Jordan's and so their

40:13

their length of their body of work maybe

40:15

gets overlooked a little bit. So I am open to

40:17

that argument for Lebron, but I just don't

40:20

think you're going to be able to take

40:22

that title by accumulation. I

40:24

think so much of what goes into the goat

40:26

conversation is an emotional pull.

40:29

It's the inevitability, it's the total

40:31

dominance that Jordan exerted. And

40:33

there were never situations where like rival

40:36

dynasties like came up to

40:38

beat Lebron at his own game. Uh,

40:40

you know, by forming these free agencies, super teams

40:42

that took him down and now he's the underdog.

40:45

You know, during Jordan's prime, there was

40:47

no such thing as him being the underdog. I mean, he went

40:49

in there with the pressure to win every single year. That's

40:51

part of the reason why he was exhausted. So UM,

40:54

I don't know. I still come out that like

40:56

Jordan captured the imaginations in way that Lebron

40:59

just hasn't. I think Lebron it winds up

41:01

being more universally

41:03

respected than Jordan was. But I

41:05

also think Jordan was just loved and worshiped

41:08

in a way that Lebron and no other modern

41:10

player has ever come closed, right

41:12

I I you know, these are really difficult

41:14

things to measure, if not impossible and unquantifiable.

41:18

I do think that Jordan has said that, you know,

41:20

um being mentally and physically

41:22

exhausted throughout that first three peat,

41:25

uh was something that did factor into him

41:28

wanting to go play baseball. Uh,

41:30

in addition to his father

41:32

being tragically killed. So I mean, it is

41:34

really difficult to pars for sure. Um.

41:37

The other thing I just want to really quickly bring up in this

41:39

debate is where do you stand

41:42

on the fact that Lebron has

41:44

now won three titles with

41:47

three different teams, Because um,

41:51

you know, you can kind of look at it like a

41:54

knock and uh,

41:56

you know, he had to go to the Lakers to get

41:58

a D two eventually team up

42:00

with him there, which would mean he can tell the future. Um.

42:03

Or he had to go to the Heat to win

42:06

his first one and team up with Dwayne

42:08

Wade and get Chris Bosh to sign down there.

42:11

Um Or uh, you know,

42:13

going back to Cleveland where Kyrie Irving

42:15

was already there and this organization that had like

42:17

seventeen straight first overall

42:20

picks where he could kind of take one

42:22

of them and trade it to get Kevin Love,

42:24

who, at the time I think people forget

42:26

was like a top eight player in the NBA

42:29

when he was in Minnesota and his prime and healthy

42:31

Um, so, like,

42:34

do you think that that is a detriment to his

42:36

legacy or do you think that that is an advantage

42:38

When we talk about the context of comparing

42:40

him with Michael Jordan's, Well,

42:42

the way I always phrase it is Jordan was a franchise

42:45

player. Lebron is a franchise right. I

42:47

mean, Lebron is the one who said that's

42:49

why I brought Anthony Davis to l A Like,

42:51

that's just an amazing statement from a superstar

42:53

player to make during the middle of a title push.

42:56

And uh, you know he said it, it it was factual.

42:58

We all believed him, right, So, um,

43:00

it's a there's a generation uh gap

43:03

and in approach between those two.

43:05

The bulls built around Jordan, Lebron built

43:07

whatever he wanted wherever he wanted. Um.

43:10

I think in terms of the Goat

43:12

conversation, the most important part to

43:14

remember is that if you're talking about emotional

43:16

ties and people, you know, cheering along your

43:18

journey and all those kinds of things, sticking

43:21

in one spot does appeal to more

43:23

people. It's just a fact. Now, I personally have no problem

43:25

with any NBA player bouncing from spot to spot.

43:28

Uh. Myself, I always wanted to have

43:30

the ability for free agency if I wanted to take

43:32

a different job or leave a particular company

43:34

for some other ones. I always wanted to have that,

43:37

uh, you know that option. And so whenever

43:39

players here free agency, I fully

43:41

commend them for taking any any possible advantage.

43:44

But I also understand how that does rub

43:46

some segment of the

43:48

fan base the wrong way. How people will

43:50

glorify the loyalty

43:52

aspect that Jordan's showed, or just like you

43:54

know, the blood, sweat and tears of getting over the hump,

43:57

how Lebron cried in the two thousand

43:59

six title that was clearly the most

44:01

meaningful one to him after the years

44:03

that he had put it in Cleveland previously not being

44:06

able to do it, and how that was the one

44:08

that earned him the most universal acclaim from

44:10

everybody because it was sort of he had come back

44:12

home to take care of business, right. People loved

44:14

that story. And I think when you do bounce

44:16

from place to place and you take your talents to South Beach

44:19

and you go to l A, there is some segment

44:21

of fans that are going to be like, cool, whatever,

44:24

that's a shortcut, or they're gonna be like, I'm

44:26

not as emotionally drawn to this because,

44:29

um, you know that that particular player didn't have

44:31

a long storied history with

44:34

that specific franchise, right, So, I

44:36

mean Lebron was trying to bring up the idea that winning a

44:38

title with the Lakers is like winning a title with the

44:40

Cowboys, you know, or the

44:42

Yankees. And I agree to a

44:44

certain point, but it's sort of like a Rod

44:47

winning a title with the Yankees as

44:50

compared to Derek Jeter winning a

44:52

title with the Yankees. There's a big difference there,

44:54

right, And I think Lebron's in the a

44:56

Rod category. He's not in the Jeter category

44:58

on this particular title, and that matters

45:00

in terms of, you know, greatest of all time debates,

45:03

you know, whether people are going to be valuing

45:05

him or all of these titles or the accomplishment

45:08

of going from team to team over Jordan's.

45:10

Um. I think that it's not like

45:12

it detracts from him, but I do think

45:15

it holds back slightly. I think

45:17

that comparing Lebron

45:19

to a Rod might be the meanest thing you've

45:22

ever said on this podcast. I just want

45:24

to put that on the record. Look, look, look, look,

45:26

an one of the greatest baseball players of all time.

45:28

Right, I don't know that much about baseball. I'm just talking

45:30

about sweat equity, right, and I'm talking

45:32

about you know, who is the Yankees favorite son?

45:35

You know? And if you're asking Yankees fand right now, pick

45:37

Kobe or Lebron. There's no question, right, it's the

45:39

guy who spent twenty years. He's the icon.

45:42

And that's a tough and and uncomfortable spot

45:44

for Lebron to be in. There's kind of no way around

45:46

that, um, But you know, that's

45:48

how it is. Now. If he wins too, if he wins three,

45:51

okay, that's gonna start to change. And

45:53

you know, the interesting thing to me that I've always wondered,

45:55

what does Lebron have to do to get a statue

45:58

outside Stable Center? Because with this title,

46:00

he's getting his jersey retired. To me, that's a

46:02

rap, right, And if they had never

46:04

won a title in l A, they probably still

46:07

retire because they're the Lakers, um, and they

46:09

take care of their icons

46:11

like that. But he's guaranteed to have his number

46:13

retired now, A D is guaranteed to have his number

46:15

retired. Now, what does Lebron need to

46:17

do to have a statue, right, I think that's kind

46:19

of the next um, the next hurdle

46:22

for him, and we'll see. You know, if he gets one

46:24

more he probably gets a statue. Maybe he gets

46:26

one if he just sticks around for a couple more years. I don't know. Now

46:29

he needs at least one more title, in my opinion,

46:31

to get a statue. You know, I did an interview with

46:33

Michael Thompson, Clay Thompson's father,

46:36

who won two championships

46:38

with the Lakers in the late eighties, and

46:40

I asked him, you know, how can

46:43

how did these Lakers Lakers

46:45

stack up against some of the greatest teams in

46:47

franchise history, And he was like,

46:49

they have to win at least two in a row

46:51

or two out of three or whatever it is, multiple

46:54

championships because you can't be compared

46:56

with Kobe and Shack or Magic

46:59

and Kareem and James were the UM.

47:02

This is where I do have some sympathy

47:04

for Lebron. Can you imagine going through a thirteen

47:06

month season winning the Bubble title and

47:09

people are like, yeah, you're

47:11

gonna have to do it again next year. You're really going to have

47:13

to repeat if you want our respect. It's like

47:15

God, that really would get to me. Yeah,

47:18

Um, can we can we briefly I

47:20

don't know even know if you set this up at the top, but can

47:22

we talk about like current

47:24

player rankings right now coming off

47:27

the bubble? And please everybody,

47:29

are you ready to go Kauai over Lebron and

47:31

really just towards the internet? I mean this is

47:33

Lebron has got to have that number one spot for right

47:35

now? Right, I think

47:38

James Harden really has a case. Look,

47:42

if Westbrook didn't have the leg injury, you guys

47:44

have no idea what you're man. Daniel has screwed

47:46

it up for everybody. Um, No, I

47:49

I do. Sometimes I do feel

47:52

pretty antagonistic with my

47:54

opinions. Um, it's it's

47:56

I swear to God, it's not. Um,

47:59

it's not intentional. I don't mean to

48:01

be that way. Look, let me just say this for the

48:03

record, for anybody who might be upset by you

48:05

know, Michael poking and prodding here

48:07

and there. They're called the Lincoln and Douglas

48:10

debates because there was a Douglas. Right.

48:12

If it's just Lincoln talking, you don't

48:14

have a debate. It's just Abe Lincoln's

48:16

podcast our right, So I'm not necessarily

48:19

saying one is you know, I'm not claiming

48:21

that I'm Lincoln or anything else. Just you have

48:23

to have that other side otherwise it's not as interesting

48:25

anyway. Carryall, thank you, thank you. Um So,

48:30

I mean, I think,

48:32

you know, all due respect to Lebron, I

48:37

think that Anthony Davis is the best basketball

48:39

player in the world right now. Okay,

48:42

I think let me let me ask you, is he the

48:44

most complete, most talented player

48:46

or if you had to draft one player

48:49

entering next season to win a title, are

48:52

you taking Anthony Davis number one? Look,

49:00

we talked earlier about coin flips,

49:02

like this is such

49:05

a coin flip to me, honestly, and I totally

49:08

understand, uh, the

49:10

way that Lebron orchestrates

49:13

offense and how he has the ball in his hands

49:15

more and how he can create his shot easier and

49:18

this and that and the other. Um,

49:21

when I look at Anthony Davis like

49:26

he was able to create his own shot in the playoffs

49:28

in ways that I was frankly stunned

49:30

me. Um, particularly in that Houston

49:32

series where they're trying to switch everything

49:35

and forcing those isolation

49:38

situations. I mean, he just looked like Kevin

49:40

Durant for stretches and um,

49:44

he's the guy who hit the buzzer beater against Denver.

49:47

Um, he's the guy who shut

49:49

down Jimmy Butler in the finals. Uh,

49:52

he's the guy who was the best defender in the

49:54

bubble, easily for

49:57

a team that had it built its reputation

49:59

on defense. And Lebron gets a lot

50:01

of credit for buying in. But

50:03

like that, it's like the identity is built

50:06

on Anthony Davis. That's who it is. He established

50:08

it. I'm sorry he bought into Anthony Davis

50:10

inc. Exactly. It's like, when Kyrie

50:12

Irving is your best teammate, are you going

50:14

to give all you have on the defensive

50:17

end knowing that you know there's going to be

50:19

so many countless possessions where

50:22

Kyrie blows it and it's futile, Like, no,

50:24

He's going to conserve his energy for the offensive end. So

50:26

I just think that that makes a lot of sense from Lebron's

50:28

point of view. But look

50:30

like Anthony Davis, there was no answer

50:32

for him. I'm not saying that there's an answer

50:34

for Lebron, but there was straight up

50:36

no answer for Anthony Davis throughout

50:39

the entire postseason. Um,

50:41

so like buy a hair, I

50:44

just think a D is slightly better.

50:46

And I mean statistically there's a lot of things you can

50:48

point to that would support that argument. Um.

50:53

But like if you said to me again, like Lebron's

50:55

the best player, I'm not going to like

50:58

hold a knife to your neck or anything. Yeah,

51:01

I would go Lebron one. Um, it's

51:03

very close. The distinction I would

51:05

just make is like if I was starting a team

51:07

with one of those guys I didn't have access to

51:09

both, who do I trust to make his

51:12

teammates better and to make a functional set

51:14

up and to get the most out of every other piece

51:16

that he's got access to. And at this point,

51:18

I would take Lebron. A

51:21

lot of it comes down to off court leadership and mental

51:24

toughness and experience and everything else,

51:26

and the the ability to get your

51:28

teammates to kind of buy in. I think it's just

51:30

like really really important, And so I would take

51:32

Lebron one. If you're saying who's the most

51:34

talented overall player in

51:37

the NBA right now, it's

51:41

really hard to make an argument against Anthony Davis,

51:43

right, I mean, he's got you know, I guess Jana's

51:46

versus Anthony Davis. I think that, uh, you

51:48

know, Anthony Davis has shown his defensive value

51:50

in a playoff setting is greater.

51:53

Uh. He showed the value of his mid range

51:55

and perimeter comfort and shooting. Um,

51:59

so I think it's lights out, lights out

52:01

shooter from the mid range. Uh,

52:03

lights out shooter from I

52:05

mean maybe lights out is too strong, but a

52:07

very capable, threatening

52:09

three point shooter as well, so Constant

52:12

had to be guarded. Yeah, so I think you've got

52:15

to put him over Yannese at this point. Um.

52:17

You know, even though Janice has an edge in playmaking

52:19

and initiation, UM, I

52:22

think the other things that we saw from Anthony Davis

52:24

wound up being more valuable in this playoff

52:26

setting. Um. You know, it gives

52:28

tricky with a guy like Kawhi Leonard because

52:31

his season was just such a disappointment. Um.

52:34

You know, I came out of that playoff run

52:36

just really soured on Kauai. It's not like

52:38

I'm going to drop him out of my top ten, but

52:41

you know, for a guy who be sort of grandfathered into

52:43

that number one spot, he just did not live

52:45

up to that. In the three one collapse at

52:47

all to me, you don't want to overreact

52:49

there, so you don't want to drop him too far. But you

52:52

know, Kauai versus Anthony Davis is a pretty interesting

52:54

question. I do think, you know, with Kauai,

52:56

the availability part comes into it. You

52:58

know, now we're at the point where we rusting Anthony Davis

53:00

to play seventy five games a year and

53:03

to shake shake off those little ankle injuries

53:05

that used to sideline him for a while and to play through

53:07

the bumps and bruises and everything

53:09

else. So you probably gotta put Anthony

53:11

Davis over Kauai at this point as well. Um

53:15

So, yeah, I mean we could be in looking at a situation

53:17

where, you know, until Kevin

53:19

Durant's back healthy and we could really see what he's

53:21

doing, um and until Luca,

53:24

you know, fully blossoms. I

53:26

think that we might be heading into next year with Lebron

53:28

at one for me and Anthony Davis at too. I think

53:31

that's possible. I think I

53:34

think Kauai is a little closer to Lebron than

53:37

you have him. And I'm still a pretty

53:39

huge Kawai supporter in general, and

53:41

well, I'm not sure I'm gonna draw him further than like

53:44

three or four, you know what I mean? Yeah,

53:46

no, no, no, yeah, for sure. Um, But I also

53:48

think that we cannot

53:51

discount the fact that Lebron's

53:53

teammate was Anthony Davis.

53:55

And look, Anthony Davis

53:58

makes the game easier for every one

54:00

on both ends in ways that

54:02

someone like say Paul

54:04

George does not. So,

54:08

um, I think that, you know, trying

54:10

to parse the differences

54:12

there is really hard and tough, and I think

54:14

Kauai had a lot more on his shoulders than Lebron

54:17

did throughout this run because Anthony

54:20

Davis, who is either the best or

54:22

the second best one A one B in

54:25

the entire world. Um, you

54:27

know, this ridiculous pick and roll partner.

54:29

This guy you could just throw the ball in the post and

54:31

he's an automatic double team kick out

54:33

wide open three. That's just not something

54:36

that Kauai got to enjoy.

54:38

So I think that they're

54:41

like, I think it's all just a

54:43

bunch of coin flips between those three

54:45

in a lot of ways. Um. And

54:47

I just don't want to detract too much from Kauai,

54:49

who I think had one like

54:52

one bad game and it was you know, you don't want

54:54

to have a bad game in a Game seven in the second

54:56

round, but had one

54:58

bad game. I'm glad you bring

55:01

up this idea of Anthony Davis making life a lot

55:03

easier for Lebron too, because I think it's important.

55:05

There's that whole like scientific thing. I think that it's

55:07

like mutualism or something like that, where you have,

55:10

you know, like a goat as an

55:12

animal, and then there's you know, some sort of a bird

55:14

or like a gnat that like you know, picks

55:16

off the bugs off the goat, and like the

55:19

bird couldn't survive without the food source,

55:21

you know, but the goat couldn't survive if the gnat

55:24

or if the bird wasn't cleaning him. You

55:26

know what I'm describing right, Like on National Geographic

55:28

where they like pairs of pairs of animals.

55:31

So it reminds me, like, you know, going back,

55:33

people used to always say, like Steph Curry because

55:35

it was his team, you know, Steph Curry makes the game so

55:37

much easier for Kevin Durant, like he goes and nuts

55:39

and like, you know, Katie is allowed to thrive because of all

55:42

the spacing. But the opposite was always

55:44

true too, Like Kevin Durant made life a

55:46

lot easier for Steph Curry. And when you see him

55:48

dancing down the middle of the paint for

55:50

wide open, uncontested layups, it's like, oh

55:53

yeah, maybe Katie's presence there is

55:55

is making life a little bit easier for Steph Curry to

55:57

go at one on one. Um. It

55:59

is the same deal Lebron and Anthony Davis, and there's

56:01

way more media attention on how Lebron

56:03

makes eighties life better than vice versus.

56:06

So we should describe that mutual,

56:08

uh you know, that mutual beneficial

56:10

relationship. And hopefully we've got some scientists out

56:13

there who can set me straight on uh, the

56:15

the proper animal examples and

56:17

exactly what it's called in the scientific world.

56:20

I want to close up here, Michael with just a funny question.

56:22

It comes in from Michael in Tasmania.

56:25

He writes, we all know it's a copycat

56:27

league and with the Lakers raising banner number

56:29

seventeen, people would dissect the roster

56:32

construction and their style an attempt

56:34

to replicate it. And he's right, We're already

56:36

hearing lots of talk about who can find that Anthony

56:38

Davis stocker right, and is it time

56:40

to go back to a little bit more big ball rather than

56:42

just small ball. I mean, we're already hearing those conversations.

56:45

Michael goes on. Most teams

56:47

will focus on the players. But let's look

56:49

at coach Vogel, a middle aged,

56:52

defensive minded grinder whose

56:54

previous peak was losing to Lebron

56:56

in the Eastern Conference Finals. If

56:58

only there was another or coach in

57:01

that mold. Oh wait a minute,

57:03

Tom Thibodeau fits the bill. My

57:06

question is which team will ignore

57:08

the roster construction, ignore

57:10

the fact that the Lakers have the second best player

57:12

of all time combined with the best two

57:14

way big man in the league, and convinced

57:17

themselves that coach Tips is exactly

57:19

what they need. And why is

57:21

it the New York Knicks brilliant

57:24

email from Michael, do you have a response?

57:26

This is your your current hometown

57:29

team. They're building a title formula

57:31

around coach Thibodeaux, the next Frank

57:33

Vogel. What do you think? I mean, the foresight

57:36

that the Knicks had with this higher

57:38

once again, just ahead

57:40

of the curve, cutting edge brilliance

57:43

from the New York Knicks um

57:46

to get Tips off the market when

57:48

all these other teams would just be chomping at

57:50

the bit right now, brilliant

57:53

kudos. Uh might

57:55

as well be, you know, planning chip

58:00

a chip parade right now. For the New York follow

58:02

up question, will R J. Barrett

58:05

ever be better than Contavious call Wall

58:07

Pope?

58:11

Um? Yeah, I mean,

58:14

you know, look,

58:16

honestly, could go either way. I would love

58:18

to see him hit, but I don't know. Man. Yeah,

58:22

that's a that's a dice A one um with the

58:24

Lakers trade k CP for

58:26

for R J. Barrett tomorrow is

58:28

a really interesting question that I hope

58:30

everyone knows that I'm joking. Um,

58:33

so no, Yeah, but again,

58:35

like the Knicks, just um

58:38

shout out to look his his tongue

58:40

was in his cheek with this question, right, Um,

58:43

But I was curious, like, do you think

58:46

vogel ball if you want to call it that? Right?

58:49

This this re emphasis on size

58:52

force inside um trying to

58:54

make the most of Anthony Davis. Uh,

58:57

you know from a versatility standpoint, Um,

59:00

is this replicable in any way

59:02

if you were trying to match up with Lakers.

59:05

Let's say you're the Clippers, Let's say you're the

59:07

Bucks. Let's say you're any of those teams

59:09

that we put into the yes of the contender

59:11

conversation. What are the kinds of moves

59:13

that you're trying to make to match up with them?

59:16

Or do you say, look, we're not going to beat the Lakers

59:18

at their own game. We want to do something

59:20

different and here's how we're going to try to exploit

59:23

their frontline. Like what does that look like? I

59:26

think if you want to I wrote this, uh

59:29

towards the end of the bubble, but like,

59:32

I do think that this emergence of

59:34

this version of Anthony Davis

59:37

will really make teams uh

59:41

that are serious about winning the title invest

59:43

a little bit more seriously in size

59:46

and um and take

59:48

more seriously the offensive and

59:50

the defensive class and take

59:52

more seriously uh,

59:55

legitimate post defenders. Who

59:57

can you can throw

59:59

on E d and guard the

1:00:01

Lakers pretty straight up without

1:00:04

doubling him and getting yourself in a rotation.

1:00:06

Like, I don't know what the answers are. I would

1:00:08

have loved to have seen Bama

1:00:10

to Bio in that matchup if

1:00:12

he was healthy in the finals. I think that would have been super

1:00:15

fascinating because he's kind of the guy the

1:00:17

prototype figure for

1:00:19

what a championship contender that's

1:00:21

trying to uh take down

1:00:23

a team with Anthony Davis needs right. So

1:00:27

I mean, is like, if

1:00:30

the Bucks were in that series, is Jannice

1:00:32

an answer? Like, I don't know, like

1:00:34

it it's because, like, foul trouble is a thing, so

1:00:36

you don't want someone like Janice being in that matchup.

1:00:39

So I just think it's really complicated. I don't know many

1:00:41

people in the world can

1:00:43

make Anthony Davis's life difficult

1:00:45

one on one, and the answers they might

1:00:47

be like three or four people, So it

1:00:50

might be a futile exercise to begin

1:00:52

with. But I think size

1:00:54

is super important. I think rebounding

1:00:57

could be uh an

1:00:59

even bigger local point going forward

1:01:01

a little bit for teams that have kind of punted

1:01:03

on the offensive glass. I think, you know, the Lakers

1:01:06

had so much success in the offensive glass

1:01:08

um regardless of whether or not

1:01:10

they were bigger not. You know, they would send Caruso, they would

1:01:12

send Danny Green, they would send Rondo

1:01:15

in to kind of create those second chance opportunities.

1:01:18

So I think that, you know, the way that the

1:01:20

Lakers one boils down

1:01:22

to fundamentally having the two best players

1:01:25

in every single series, and that cannot

1:01:27

be discounted, but their style of

1:01:29

play is something that I think teams might look

1:01:31

at and try to replicate a little bit. Yeah,

1:01:33

I think if you're the the Rockets

1:01:36

or the Warriors, you need to have a big, traditional

1:01:38

center option who you can play right. And I think

1:01:40

if you're the Flippers, you have to ask yourself, is zoo

1:01:43

Bach that guy? And he might be. I

1:01:45

mean, he had a pretty darn good playoff series,

1:01:47

But you need to be able to have something to

1:01:49

match up when the Lakers go big. You can't

1:01:51

try to play super small ball. You can't try to

1:01:53

think that you're gonna get by with only the death

1:01:55

lineup. They will wear you down, and

1:01:58

they will I think, you know you

1:02:00

with their big lineups, and it's not a situation

1:02:02

where you can just constantly downsize to like force

1:02:05

guys off the court. Now at the same

1:02:07

time, uh, you know, if

1:02:09

you're having success like even Miami showed,

1:02:12

um, you know in the finals where they were able to kind of play

1:02:14

Dwight off the court, it is possible. So you want to

1:02:16

be able to kind of do both. But I think the days

1:02:19

of just really trying to emphasize only

1:02:21

a death lineup or only having five shooters or

1:02:23

only being maximally spread UM

1:02:26

that will you know, you'll run into a lot of problems if

1:02:28

you face the Lakers. You need to be able to do both. So

1:02:31

I think that means for Houston, if they don't go out

1:02:33

there and get a center this summer, we can just write

1:02:35

them off. Is kind of how I look at it. At

1:02:37

least a capable option in the middle of who they can

1:02:39

play UM and and form functional

1:02:41

lineups UM and same deal with Golden

1:02:43

State. I think they need to be better at the five. They can't

1:02:45

get by just playing Draymond and you

1:02:47

know, going undersize because they just don't have Yeah,

1:02:51

so they're gonna need, you know, an awesome season from

1:02:53

him. I guess if if that's their plan, UM

1:02:56

and then uh, you know, for the Clippers,

1:02:58

the big question is Zoo Bok enough. He probably

1:03:00

is, but you're gonna if that's the case, you're gonna probably

1:03:02

need a little bit more length at the four UM

1:03:05

to have a better individual matchup or

1:03:07

you're just gonna have to tell Paul George like, hey man,

1:03:10

this is now the this is now your responsibility.

1:03:13

You have to be the guy who just shadows a d All over

1:03:15

the court. And we saw, you know, years ago

1:03:17

how Paul George and Indiana responded to the idea

1:03:19

of him playing for So that might not go

1:03:21

super well. Um, but

1:03:23

but those are the kinds of questions that those you know,

1:03:25

those those chase teams like that, you know, that second

1:03:27

tier team, um, you know, might

1:03:30

might have to be asking. And I do think if you're Milwaukee,

1:03:33

you're gonna have some problems getting through to the finals.

1:03:35

But if you're saying you've got Lopez and

1:03:37

Janice as your options at

1:03:39

center to you know, when you want to play big

1:03:41

versus when you want to play small, it's

1:03:44

hard to do much better than that to

1:03:46

me right now in the NBA,

1:03:48

that combination. So I think that they actually match up

1:03:50

better inside with the Lakers than a lot of other teams.

1:03:53

Whether they get there, you know, with

1:03:55

with coach budd and you know his approach

1:03:57

is a is a totally different question. But we'll see

1:04:00

you all right, Michael, we've reached the end of another

1:04:02

episode of Open Floor. Guys.

1:04:04

Email us follow up questions. Let us know

1:04:06

what you want us to talk about here the next couple of weeks.

1:04:08

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1:04:10

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1:04:13

Any other ideas on what we've talked about, whether it's

1:04:15

a contender that we missed or somebody that we overrated,

1:04:18

let us know. We love your emails. We love

1:04:20

hearing from you, especially the funny ones. You guys came

1:04:22

through with some great humor this week and

1:04:25

it really put a smile on my face. We're

1:04:27

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1:04:29

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1:04:33

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1:04:36

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1:04:38

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1:04:40

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1:04:44

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1:04:49

the link on my Twitter bio. Alright,

1:04:51

Michael, until next week, I will talk

1:04:53

to you ducs in Ben