0:08

Hello friends. It's time for the second

0:10

hour of Open Line with me. Michael

0:13

Ray. Gentlemen, this is Moody radio Bible

0:15

study. Across America. We

0:17

usually talk about your questions

0:19

about the Bible, God, and the

0:22

spiritual life. But today, it's something

0:24

different. Uh, today

0:26

we're going to talk about a question

0:28

that I get all the time on Open

0:31

Line, but we're talking about it in depth

0:33

in a pre-recorded program with a special

0:35

panel. I've got the all star panel

0:37

here. I guess some other program talks

0:39

about all stars, but no, these are the real

0:41

stars right here. Uh, I've got

0:44

with me, doctor Mike Vanlandingham, who's

0:46

an adjunct professor of Bible and

0:49

theology at Moody Bible Institute.

0:51

So glad that you are here, Mike. Did

0:53

you have.

0:53

Something to do with the Moody Bible Commentary?

0:54

Yeah, he's the co-editor.

0:56

Oh, yeah, I thought I remember that he.

0:58

He was the annoying voice

1:00

I had.

1:01

I'll never forget it. Yeah. So. Yeah.

1:04

Yes. And, uh, also,

1:07

uh, uh, joining us is doctor

1:09

Cisco Cotto. He is

1:11

a Chicago news radio anchorman.

1:13

He's also now assistant professor

1:16

of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute.

1:18

And also joining us, Eva

1:20

Redlich. Uh, the person who usually

1:22

texts me the answers to the questions.

1:25

But today, she's right here. She's

1:27

my wife. Eva teaches adjunct at Moody

1:29

Bible Institute. And, uh, by the

1:31

way, people always ask me, what does Eva teach?

1:33

Everything. She.

1:36

There's nothing she couldn't like.

1:37

Thank you. The utility side guy.

1:39

Jazz band. Yeah. Whatever you need played. I

1:42

can play that.

1:42

Yeah. So. But she her emphasis

1:44

is literature and Jewish

1:47

studies. So, uh, but

1:49

don't call today. Uh, you can post

1:51

your questions by going to open Line radio org.

1:54

Click on where it says Ask

1:56

Michael a question. Fill out the form and your

1:58

question will be added to the mailbag for later

2:00

inclusion. However, today

2:02

what we're doing is we're talking about

2:04

the great question people have can I

2:07

lose my salvation? And what we did

2:09

in the first hour? It was talk about the security

2:11

of the believer that we are

2:13

secure because of what

2:15

the entire Triune God

2:17

had, has, has

2:20

secured for us. The father,

2:22

uh, planned our salvation. The the son,

2:25

uh, provided our salvation through

2:27

his redemption. And the Holy Spirit

2:30

preserves our salvation with his

2:32

seal. That's a kind of quick way of looking at

2:34

what we talked about last hour. Now,

2:37

what I found is that most people feel.

2:40

And that's the key word. They

2:42

feel, that somehow

2:44

they've lost their salvation and

2:46

it's driven by our feelings.

2:48

And so just.

2:50

Got a phone call a couple days ago from a girlfriend

2:52

that we've known from back

2:55

in New York days, when we met.

2:57

40 years.

2:58

40 years ago. Yeah. Uh, she became

3:00

a follower of Messiah back then. And

3:02

for the last four decades, she's been

3:04

plagued by not feeling like

3:06

she really has a permanent relationship.

3:09

Yeah.

3:10

Whenever something when her feelings

3:12

evade her, then,

3:14

you know, then she starts doubting her

3:16

salvation. So, uh, this is

3:18

something that that Eva, uh, pointed

3:21

out to me. It's a bunch of years ago.

3:23

It's an article, um, called

3:25

Good Days and Bad Days. Maybe you

3:27

guys can relate to this. I

3:29

have good days and bad days.

3:32

On a good day, I can really

3:34

feel God's love. It's almost

3:36

tangible. On a good day, I

3:38

wake up early, I run, I

3:41

have a meaningful prayer time. I'm

3:43

in my office writing by 9:00

3:45

and I have great ideas.

3:47

I eat leafy green vegetables

3:50

and when I offered gooey desserts, I

3:52

say no thank you. I

3:54

do not watch TV. I

3:56

feel charitable towards my family and

3:58

say encouraging things all day long.

4:01

I'm kind to friends, strangers

4:04

and small animals. In

4:06

the evening I cook a meal

4:08

in which nothing burns or

4:10

is underdone. I wash the

4:12

dishes and plump the sofa pillows

4:14

and take a warm bath and put on

4:16

my clean nightie and fall

4:19

self-righteously into my bed,

4:21

thinking, of course God loves

4:23

me. What's not to love? But

4:27

on a bad day I wake up

4:29

late and growl before my

4:31

eyes are fully open. I figure

4:33

I've already missed my prayer time, so

4:35

I scratch it off the list. I'm

4:38

cross with my husband, my sons,

4:40

my neighbors, my friends, my salespersons

4:42

and people in the traffic are in and

4:45

even innocent children. I

4:47

gossip about people that I should be praying

4:49

for. I watch hours

4:52

of TV and eat potato chips.

4:54

I do not write a word

4:56

or move a muscle, and by the

4:58

time I turn out the light at night,

5:00

there is only one word to describe

5:03

me. Yuck. Not

5:05

only do I not love myself,

5:08

but I find it hard to believe that

5:10

God, or anyone even

5:12

remotely associated with heaven,

5:14

could locate a kind thought

5:16

to send my way. Those

5:19

good and bad days demonstrate my

5:21

skewed expectations of

5:23

God. I expect him

5:26

to act like me, to

5:28

love like I love,

5:30

to give me what I deserve.

5:33

And of course he doesn't. On

5:35

a scale of 1 to 10, God loves

5:38

me at ten on my best

5:40

day and a

5:42

ten on my worst.

5:44

There is no way I can lose

5:47

God's love by what I do

5:49

or do not do. There is

5:51

no way I can improve it by what

5:53

I do or do not do.

5:56

There's nothing I can do to

5:58

make him love me less

6:00

or love me more. Amazing.

6:03

You bet it is. It is

6:05

the best kept secret of the Christian

6:07

life. The little understood

6:09

mystery which we call

6:11

amazing Grace.

6:14

That's my Claire Cloninger. Wonderful

6:17

little essay, don't you think? Mhm. Uh,

6:20

because even though it's written from a woman's

6:22

perspective, I could make my own

6:24

list of what a terrible day is like,

6:26

you know, and I think I

6:28

know that. And the

6:31

thing that amazes me about that is I will

6:33

doubt that God loves me after a bad day.

6:35

I never doubt that evil loves me. You

6:37

know, and I think I am

6:40

ascribing to Eva. Greater

6:44

love than God himself.

6:46

How stupid is that? Yeah.

6:48

So greater perseverance in that love.

6:50

Yeah. No matter what, she's going to love me. God,

6:53

I don't know. He may change his mind. He

6:55

may. Yeah.

6:58

So, anyway.

6:59

I just I sometimes just need to read

7:01

that over and over to kind of

7:03

remind myself that it's not at all

7:05

based on my works or my ability

7:08

to stay secure. It's what we talked

7:10

about last hour. It's not,

7:13

uh, the perseverance of the saints, but what did you

7:15

call it? Might be.

7:16

Preservation of.

7:17

The saints. And for me, I call it the

7:19

perseverance of the Savior.

7:21

That's it. And I'm so encouraged

7:23

by that. Okay, but we do have to address some

7:25

other issues. Okay.

7:27

You mean there are problem issues?

7:28

Yeah, yeah. Uh, what do

7:30

we do with some of the problem

7:33

passages? And that's really what we're going to talk

7:35

about this hour. We talk

7:37

about obviously there are people who

7:39

believe, love God, love his

7:42

word, uh, and

7:44

love Jesus. And they believe we could lose our

7:46

salvation. So I recognize

7:48

that. And so I want to deal with

7:50

what they would say. But but panel,

7:53

you know, we've got some other opinions

7:56

here. And, uh. I

7:59

think that, uh, what we have

8:01

are some problem passages.

8:04

Just as we secured our convictions

8:06

about this based on the Bible, there are some problem

8:08

passages we're going to talk about those,

8:11

but I want to just talk about some general ways

8:13

of dealing with problem passages.

8:16

Okay. Uh, and the reason I think of that

8:18

is I remember coming to Moody Bible

8:20

Institute as a very snotty teenager

8:23

and thinking, I knew everything. And I'm sitting

8:25

in the class where the professor was teaching

8:27

spiritual life, and he talked about the security of the believer.

8:30

And I raised my hand. And one of the passage

8:32

we will talk about is Hebrews six. And I

8:34

said, well, what about Hebrews six? And he gave me his explanation

8:36

of Hebrews six. And I folded my arms

8:38

and looked down at the professor in the most condescending

8:41

way that an 18 year old can

8:43

do. And I just kind of said, I

8:45

just don't think so. Hmm.

8:47

Uh, and.

8:48

And I kept pressing him and pressing him,

8:51

and, uh, finally he

8:53

said, I'm going to give you something that should help

8:55

you always interpret

8:57

the unclear passages of

9:00

Scripture in light of the clear.

9:03

And it was like, oh, it's the first time I

9:05

ever heard that. It was like a little light bulb went on.

9:07

I get it. There's so much

9:10

clear in Scripture about

9:12

our security. That

9:15

when I come to a problem passage. I

9:18

have to note, the Bible is consistent. It's

9:20

harmonious. It's not like some authors believe you

9:22

can lose your salvation and other

9:24

authors believe you can't. So

9:27

how am I going? I'm going to take the clear teaching

9:30

of Scripture, and then I'll deal with the problem passages

9:32

in light of that. That,

9:34

to me was one of the helpful things for me

9:37

for problem passages. Uh,

9:40

there are a lot of passages, and you mentioned

9:42

it last hour that there are passages

9:44

that deal with the loss of reward.

9:47

And yet, uh, sometimes

9:50

we take those as loss of salvation,

9:52

don't you think?

9:54

Yeah, I do. Um, but

9:56

I but I think that we have to be very careful

9:58

to read the context and situations like

10:01

that to to get a really good sense

10:03

of what's going on. Mhm. Um,

10:05

do you want us to start and jump into

10:08

Hebrews chapter six?

10:09

Well let's not go to their first. Okay.

10:11

Can I just say one of the things. I

10:13

love what Mike just said about look at the context.

10:16

I think the idea of

10:18

taking the unclear passages

10:21

in light of the clear, and also

10:23

if we take the unclear passages

10:25

in light of the context, those

10:27

two things I think will help us a lot with

10:29

some of these passages that people

10:31

are so stressed.

10:32

About, help us with that. So now you're talking about all

10:34

the surrounding verses, maybe even a few

10:36

paragraphs around there, or even beyond

10:39

that. You know what? What in total is

10:41

the.

10:41

Overall teaching of Scripture, the overall

10:43

character of God. You know, some

10:45

of the the big context, I

10:47

think it helps.

10:48

Us not.

10:49

Any, like you said, not just about this

10:51

issue, but any issue.

10:53

And we're not we're not there yet. But in Hebrews

10:55

chapter six, for example, you have to read Hebrews

10:57

six in light of the entire book of Hebrews, where

11:00

where it talks about all kinds of things

11:02

that that really put

11:04

Hebrews six in its proper

11:06

place. But if you neglect the entire

11:08

book of Hebrews, then you're really going to be in trouble. You just

11:11

pull.

11:11

Out the isolated warning passages. Now you're going

11:13

to be in trouble, right? Need to understand who the

11:15

warning passages are being addressed to and what

11:17

kind of people they are.

11:19

Um, I think that that's that's

11:21

vital. I'll tell you. The other thing is, sometimes

11:23

when we look at problem passage, it's not talking

11:26

about people. And this relates to Hebrews.

11:28

It's not talking about people who have lost their

11:31

salvation. It's people who

11:33

never really knew the Lord. And of

11:35

course, Matthew seven.

11:37

Yeah. 21 through 23 depart

11:39

from me, workers of iniquity. You lost it.

11:42

Know what? Depart from me,

11:44

workers of iniquity.

11:46

I never knew you.

11:48

Yeah. Let me just comment on Matthew

11:50

just for a second. Very interesting. In Matthew's gospel,

11:52

you've got you've got an actual

11:54

category of counterfeit followers

11:56

of Jesus. You have wise

11:59

and foolish virgins. You have righteous and

12:01

unrighteous slaves. You have wheat

12:03

and tares. You have those whose house

12:05

is built upon the rock, and those whose house built upon

12:07

sand for for all

12:09

external purposes they all look exactly

12:12

the same. The problem is that

12:14

they are not. They are not the same.

12:17

Um, and so, um, in the

12:19

example of the wheat and tares,

12:21

you know. All of

12:23

this leads us to think, why should we

12:25

be surprised when somebody professes

12:27

to be a Christian and then after a

12:29

number of years or after some time,

12:33

continually live

12:35

in disobedience to the Lord? Why

12:37

would we be surprised at that? Because it is

12:40

actually a category

12:42

of people in the Gospel of Matthew

12:44

who are not true followers, but they sure

12:46

look like it. And I want to

12:48

suggest that a lot of the people who we think are

12:50

saved and then lose their salvation, as

12:52

you said, Michael, were never actually

12:54

saved. Start with they were tares. They

12:57

were not wheat. Yeah.

12:58

Well.

12:59

You know, that that raises an interesting

13:01

question because I think if people

13:03

hear that and I totally agree with you. Uh, first

13:05

John, first John 219,

13:09

uh, they went out from us, but they did not belong

13:11

to us. Right? There are people who

13:13

are here hanging out, and they sure look like

13:15

they're believers, but they're not, uh,

13:17

but they belong. Someone hears

13:19

that.

13:19

They would not have gone out from us.

13:21

They exactly. They would have stayed, right? Yeah,

13:23

but when people hear that, sometimes they go,

13:25

well, then how do I know that I'm

13:27

really one of them? How do I know

13:30

that six months, a year, five years down the

13:32

road, I'm not going to wander off because I'm

13:34

not really part of the fold.

13:35

Let's take that up. Next segment. We're going to

13:37

break right here. And when we come

13:39

back we were talking about how do I know? How

13:41

can I have some assurance of salvation.

13:44

That's even before we look at those

13:46

problem passages.

13:48

Uh, this is the all star panel of Mike Vanlandingham,

13:51

Cisco Cotto, Eva Redlich and me, Michael

13:53

Redlich. We'll be right back with

13:55

and we'll try and figure out how we can experience

13:58

assurance of our salvation. The

14:07

Book of Romans is often considered Paul's most

14:09

significant theological work, addressing

14:12

topics such as sin, salvation,

14:14

faith, righteousness, and now

14:16

you can easily grasp Paul's teachings as the

14:18

Romans. Everyday Bible Commentary by

14:20

Alan Johnson guides you in the meaning

14:22

and application of Romans in our daily

14:24

lives. When you give a gift of any size

14:27

to open line, I'll send you a copy

14:29

just to say thank you. Call (888) 644-7122

14:33

or visit Open Line Radio. Org.

14:42

Welcome back to Open Line. And my name is Michael

14:44

Redlick. And joining me this

14:47

hour and previous hour

14:49

as well, Eva Redlich, my wife

14:51

and also a teacher at Moody Bible Institute,

14:53

Mike Vanlandingham, teaching Bible and

14:55

theology at Moody Bible Institute. And

14:57

Cisco Coto, professor of Pastoral

14:59

studies at Moody Bible Institute. And

15:02

we for our discussing the

15:04

security of the believer. Cisco, you raised

15:06

something that was so significant.

15:09

People say, well, how do I know I won't

15:11

bail? How do I know that I

15:14

am secure, that I really am a

15:16

genuine follower of Jesus? What

15:18

would you.

15:18

Say to someone? How can I even know one of the verses

15:20

I mentioned in the first hour? I grew up in

15:22

a background that really

15:25

left me in limbo all the time. Am

15:27

I saved? Am I not saved? Am I good today?

15:29

Am I bad tomorrow? You know, it's just

15:31

there's really been. Oh, well, you'll know when you get there.

15:33

Well, I want to find out before I get there. I

15:35

don't I don't want to wait. It's too risky. Uh,

15:38

one of the verses that helped me from

15:40

childhood on it just because it laid

15:42

out the fact that I can know that that I'm

15:44

saved is first John 513,

15:48

where he says, I've written these things to you who

15:50

believe in the name of the Son of God, so

15:52

that you may know

15:54

that you have eternal life, not

15:57

so that you can wander, not so that you

15:59

can hope not so that maybe, but

16:01

so you can actually know. And

16:03

then what that did is it not only provided me some encouragement,

16:06

it also said, oh, now let me continue to search the

16:08

scriptures or let me continue sort of processing

16:10

this with the Lord if I can. No.

16:13

Then then how do I know? And that's when

16:15

all the scriptures we've been talking about were

16:17

brought to my attention. And I said, oh, I can confidently

16:20

know this.

16:20

That was exactly the verse I was going to talk about,

16:23

because when I

16:25

worked with Campus Life a zillion years ago,

16:27

this was a big question that a lot of students

16:29

that I worked with had. And I said this,

16:31

we all memorize this first together. And

16:34

I said, these things. Have I written to you that you

16:36

may know? Well, you have to know what's written

16:38

in order to really reap

16:41

the benefit of the security. So it just drives

16:43

you right back to the word.

16:44

And yet the encouragement is you can

16:46

know, you can know. For me, that was just as

16:49

a young person that was just eye opening. I can

16:51

actually know for sure that I have eternal

16:53

life. Yes you can. Um.

16:56

It's interesting too. I mean, in that verse

16:58

in First John, uh, these

17:00

things I've written to you who believe in the name of God

17:02

in order that you may know that you have eternal life. Well, what did

17:04

you write in first, John? Here's the things

17:07

that he wrote. Do you love God?

17:09

Do you love his commandments? Do you love

17:11

Christian people? You know? And so

17:13

in the in the suggestion is, is that if

17:15

you do, then and

17:18

you're believing in Christ, you have to believe in the

17:20

name of the Son of God. Those

17:22

are evidences and proofs

17:24

that you are right with God through faith

17:26

in Christ. And so you you even see

17:29

how those proofs

17:32

are there in first John, that

17:34

can reassure us that we really are Christians.

17:36

Do I think it's so interesting is that a lot of people say, but I

17:38

still sin. But same

17:41

author first, John, he says, you

17:43

know, walk in the light as he is in the light, and

17:45

we'll have fellowship. God in us. We'll have fellowship

17:47

together.

17:48

Uh, and if anyone sins, we have an advocate

17:50

in in the son.

17:52

Yeah. And he doesn't deny that

17:54

we sin. He says, in fact, if we deny that, we

17:56

send them, we're making God a liar. Right? But

17:58

we confess our sin, and we

18:00

then are assured that the blood

18:02

of Jesus cleanses us from all our sins.

18:04

And so that's first John one. I think that's

18:06

so interesting that he never says we lose

18:09

our relationship with God when we

18:11

sin. Uh, we might break

18:13

fellowship with him, but confession

18:15

restores that.

18:16

So yeah, he's writing this first, John. Obviously

18:18

he's writing to believers, right. And he

18:20

so he even says that Mike just read the verse.

18:22

I've written these things to you who believe in the name

18:25

of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal

18:27

life. He's writing to Christians

18:29

who may be doubting whether

18:31

or not they have eternal life. So we come

18:33

from a long line of doubters. Yeah, yeah,

18:36

there there.

18:37

Were there were a group of people from that

18:39

church who had withdrawn, you know,

18:41

they went out from us. And in the case they

18:43

weren't of us, they they'd gone out from

18:45

them and they were saying about those people who

18:47

stayed in the church, you guys are all messed

18:49

up. You don't know what you're talking about. You're not

18:51

right with God, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

18:53

so John, among other things, is writing

18:55

to them to reassure them that they are right

18:58

with God. And he uses these evidences

19:00

that if believe people who profess

19:02

to know Christ and truly know

19:05

him, and if they have those evidences,

19:07

that's reassurance. Mhm. Mhm.

19:09

Okay. Well now I think that we can

19:12

use this as a great foundation to

19:14

talk about.

19:15

Take a breath and say, yeah, I don't need

19:17

to.

19:17

Worry, we're gonna talk about some problem

19:20

passages, okay. And

19:22

the number one problem passage that I get,

19:24

there's actually two uh, top

19:26

passages. And so I want to talk about both

19:29

of them. Let's deal with the, the what

19:31

I think is the easier one first, uh,

19:34

that's, uh, there's Hebrews six

19:36

and Matthew 12.

19:39

People call all the time. First

19:41

of all, with. Matthew 12. Have

19:43

I committed the unpardonable

19:46

sin that sure all the other

19:48

sins can be forgiven, but

19:50

have I committed the

19:52

unpardonable sin? And

19:55

that, uh, I'm going to turn over

19:57

here. You can hear all our pages turning to the

19:59

to Matthew chapter 12,

20:01

when this is what the Lord Jesus

20:04

says. Uh,

20:07

he says, well, this is when

20:09

the Pharisees, the

20:11

religious leadership, they said

20:13

in verse 24, this man drives out demons

20:15

only by bills above

20:18

the ruler of demons. Knowing

20:20

their thoughts, he told them, every

20:22

kingdom divided against itself is

20:24

headed for destruction, and no city

20:27

or house divided against itself will

20:29

stand. If Satan drives out Satan,

20:31

he is divided against himself.

20:33

How then will his kingdom

20:35

stand if I drive out demons by

20:38

bills above? Uh. This

20:40

is so important. Who is it? Uh, your

20:42

sons drive out demons by. If I drive

20:44

out demons by the Spirit of God, then

20:46

the kingdom of God has come to you. But

20:49

then, uh, he,

20:52

uh, I'm going to jump down to verse 31

20:55

because of this. I tell you, people

20:57

will be forgiven every sin and

20:59

blasphemy, but the blasphemy

21:02

of the Holy Spirit, the blasphemy against

21:04

the spirit, will not be

21:06

forgiven. The unpardonable

21:08

sin blaspheming the Holy

21:10

Spirit. How do we know

21:12

if we've blasphemed the Holy Spirit? And does it mean

21:15

that we can never be forgiven,

21:17

even if we were saved? If we commit

21:20

the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, will

21:22

we lose our salvation? Okay,

21:24

the reason I read the whole context is this is one of

21:26

those cases where context really

21:28

helps us.

21:29

Absolutely. So let me just

21:31

start off by saying people

21:33

tend to think that, uh, lack

21:36

of faith in Christ for salvation is the

21:38

unpardonable sin. The problem

21:40

is that every one of us who have trusted Christ

21:42

and Savior at one point, or in a state of unbelief,

21:45

and that's obviously not the unpardonable

21:47

sin. Otherwise we wouldn't be forgiven. And

21:49

so it's not that when a person dies

21:51

in a state of unbelief, it's not so much

21:53

the unpardonable sin. It's the unpardonable

21:56

sin. Anybody who comes

21:59

to Christ finds forgiveness. So

22:01

it's not faith. I think what we

22:03

actually have here is what the passage says.

22:05

Ascribing to

22:07

Jesus and through

22:09

the spirit, the works

22:11

ascribing to him, um,

22:14

satanic complicity that

22:16

is that he's in, he's in he's,

22:18

um, in compliance with

22:21

and working with the devil.

22:23

It's so interesting to me. I don't believe

22:25

that we can actually commit this sin today.

22:27

I don't think the conditions are right. That suggests

22:30

that we could do it.

22:31

Because it seems to me, Mike,

22:33

that you have to have the incarnate

22:35

Messiah before us to claim

22:37

that he's doing his works by Satan. Exactly.

22:40

He has to be there. And they had a

22:42

maximal amount of light that

22:44

we do not have. But Jesus

22:46

was there. He was doing these miraculous

22:49

things. But it is interesting. He says

22:51

in verse 32, um,

22:53

anybody who speaks against Holy Spirit shall not

22:55

be forgiven him, either in this age or

22:57

in the age to come. The age to come is

22:59

not heaven. It's the millennial kingdom

23:02

when Jesus will again be

23:04

physically present, performing

23:06

miracles and again, apparently

23:08

there will be people who will at that time

23:10

ascribed to him satanic

23:12

complicity. They're not going to be forgiven.

23:14

But the conditions are not right

23:17

for us to be able to commit that sin.

23:19

Now.

23:20

You know, it's interesting, as I, I wrote this

23:22

in today in the word in the Q&A section

23:24

once. I'd never have gotten such

23:27

angry notes back. It's

23:29

like people want to be able to commit the unpardonable

23:32

sin. I just thought that was amazing.

23:34

Or do they want to be able to ascribe it to others?

23:37

Yeah, I.

23:38

Think sometimes there's that too. Sometimes

23:40

there's that.

23:41

That's it. Yeah. But I yeah,

23:43

that's I think what it is, is I, I would

23:45

never commit the unpardonable sin. But you

23:47

Sisqo. That's right I definitely.

23:49

I've seen it time and again. Yeah. That's right.

23:51

That's it. Yeah I think there's a lot of truth

23:53

to that. So I think I think that sort

23:56

of dismisses it that it's not something

23:58

that we can commit today.

24:00

Now, I will say this, that I

24:02

do think what the religious

24:04

leadership was doing is they were rejecting

24:06

Jesus.

24:07

No question.

24:08

Yeah. Right. That they up until then, they they

24:10

had no faith, but they were coming to a place

24:12

of full final rejection.

24:15

Now, I think it's possible for people that we

24:17

talked to today, they can come to a place

24:20

of full final rejection.

24:22

I'll tell you. The difference is, I

24:24

think Jesus knew

24:27

when they had come to full final rejection.

24:30

I don't we.

24:31

Don't. Yeah.

24:32

So I can I can kill I can still keep

24:34

presenting the good news to everyone.

24:36

And you know what I I've seen people who have

24:38

rejected and rejected and I would have, on my

24:41

knowledge, said, oh, this person.

24:43

They'll never.

24:44

They'll never believe. And then something

24:46

happens and all of a sudden the

24:48

hardest heart becomes tender

24:50

and they respond. So that's why I never

24:53

give up on people. Uh, if

24:55

I were, if I knew the Lord, if I, if

24:57

I was the Lord and knew their hearts, then

24:59

maybe. But I'm not.

25:01

And so I'm going to trust God. And I keep praying

25:03

for those hard hearts. But nevertheless,

25:06

this is not a sin that we can

25:08

commit today. That's the key thing

25:11

that I wanted to to go over. Okay.

25:13

We're going to come back with Hebrews six. One

25:15

of the toughest passages for us. So stay

25:17

right there. We're coming right back to discuss

25:20

that. We're

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FB because. Welcome

26:07

back to Open Line with Michael Dolnick.

26:10

We've got the all star panel here, all

26:12

my friends who are talking

26:15

about the security of the believer. We're going to talk about Hebrews six

26:17

in just a moment. But recently someone

26:19

wrote to Open Line. This is

26:21

what they said. My husband and I love tuning

26:23

in to Open Line on Saturday mornings.

26:25

The Lord has used you to spur us

26:27

on and knowledge and having a

26:29

sound mind as we live life for

26:31

his glory. We appreciate

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you. And then they told me that

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they just became kitchen table partners.

26:39

I just like well, first of all, I really

26:41

liked what they said, but nevertheless, I,

26:43

I appreciate so much that they became

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kitchen table partners. I'm grateful for all

26:47

our listeners, everyone that listens, and

26:50

especially because I always thought the only person that would ever

26:52

listen to Open Line was Eva. So

26:54

I'm really grateful for everyone that listens, but especially

26:56

those of you who

26:59

generously give to Open Line on

27:01

a monthly basis because you want to keep

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this program on the air. Appreciate it so

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much. One of the things I'd like to do if

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you do become a kitchen table partner, and

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that's what I do for everyone, is every other week I

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It comes in the mail, click on it, listen to

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If you'd like to become a kitchen table partner or you're

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That's (888) 644-7122.

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Or you can go to open line radio.org.

27:41

And now we're going to talk about Hebrews six

27:43

which you know, when I read that the first

27:46

time I thought for sure I could lose my salvation.

27:48

So, uh, let me just

27:50

read verses four through six and

27:52

then, Mike, you set this up and then,

27:54

uh, we'll all kind of contribute a little bit

27:57

about this, okay? Uh, Hebrews

27:59

six here. The page is

28:01

turning once again. Hebrews

28:04

six, verses four.

28:08

Through six. Okay, here

28:10

we go. Uh, for in

28:12

the case of those who have once been enlightened

28:15

and have tasted the heavenly gift

28:17

and have been made partakers

28:19

of the Holy Spirit and have tasted

28:21

the good word of God and

28:23

the powers of the age to come, and

28:26

then have fallen away.

28:29

It's impossible to renew them again

28:31

to repentance, since

28:33

they again crucified to themselves

28:35

the Son of God, and put

28:37

him to open shame. That's

28:40

a hard verse.

28:42

So again,

28:44

one of the things we have to keep in mind

28:46

is what's going on in the broader context

28:48

of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews has a

28:50

bunch of warning passages. Chapter

28:52

two, chapter three four,

28:55

uh, chapter the end of chapter five, first part

28:57

of chapter six, chapter

28:59

uh, chapter ten. And,

29:02

and I think what's happening here is that

29:04

there there's an aspect of

29:06

this messianic group,

29:08

almost certainly a messy in it group,

29:10

who had come to Christ legitimately

29:13

and had found what, salvation.

29:15

But I would put it in sort of terms

29:17

more fitting for Hebrews. And they have found covenantal

29:20

perfection in Christ, the

29:22

salvation he offers. But

29:24

there were some who had become associated

29:26

with this group, were well taught,

29:29

had maybe even seen miracles by the spirit

29:31

in this group. But we're in

29:34

the process of sort of reconsidering

29:36

and going back into their Judaism

29:38

without their Messiah, Jesus.

29:41

Um, and, and so those warning

29:43

passages are especially addressed

29:45

to them. Don't go. Don't go away

29:48

from Jesus. You need to hang on

29:50

to him. And if they didn't,

29:52

that would be evidence of the fact that

29:54

they were not really saved to start

29:56

with. Uh, two passages I want to read.

29:58

And then Michael has a great explanation of

30:00

Hebrews six. But in in

30:03

Hebrews chapter three, in verse six it says, Christ

30:05

was faithful as a son over

30:08

God's house, whose house

30:10

we are. If

30:12

we hold fast our confidence in the boast

30:15

and the boast of our hope firm until

30:17

the end. Now we are

30:19

members of God's household. If.

30:22

And the proof of that is

30:24

that we hold firm our

30:26

confidence in Christ and our faith

30:28

in Christ. And so those who have

30:30

true faith in Christ will persevere.

30:33

And it's even clearer, I think, in chapter three

30:35

verse 14 it says, for

30:37

we have become partakers of Christ

30:40

if we hold fast the beginning

30:42

of our assurance firm until

30:44

the end. That is, if we stay

30:47

in faith with Christ, that

30:49

is an evidence and a proof

30:52

of the fact that we are partakers with him.

30:54

The problem is the people who were reading

30:56

these warning passages, and it was those

30:58

who that were addressed were being

31:00

addressed, and those warning passages were in the

31:02

process of withdrawing,

31:04

and that would be a disastrous thing.

31:06

And so I so the people

31:08

needed to go all the way to Christ. They needed

31:10

to let go of the

31:12

priesthood of Aaron. They needed

31:15

to let go of Moses and the law.

31:17

They needed to let go of the old covenant

31:19

and the earthly tabernacle and

31:21

temple, and they needed to come all the way

31:23

to everything perfect found in Christ.

31:26

And they hadn't done that. Some of them.

31:28

Yeah. Uh, here's

31:30

what, uh 314 we have become partakers

31:32

of Christ or Messiah, if we hold

31:34

fast the beginning of our assurance firm

31:36

until the end, we have not become partakers

31:39

of him if we've not, if we don't hold fast

31:41

to the end. Right. I think that that's so

31:44

important. Uh, I had a professor at seminary

31:46

now with the Lord stand to Saint used to say

31:49

the proof of election is perseverance,

31:52

right. Uh, and and that

31:54

that's so crucial for seeing that that

31:56

he doesn't know yet whether they're going to persevere.

32:00

Uh, he does say this. And Hebrews

32:02

four, uh, let us fear

32:04

if, while a promise remains of entering

32:06

his rest, any one of

32:09

you may seem to have come short of it seems

32:11

like there are some people there that have

32:13

come short of it. For indeed we have had

32:16

good news preached to us, just as they also.

32:18

But the word they heard did not profit

32:21

them. It's referring to people

32:23

who are in the wilderness because it

32:25

was not united by faith in those who heard.

32:27

So what is he saying? He's saying, there's some of

32:29

you here. I don't know, but do

32:31

you have genuine faith, uh,

32:33

that it's possible that you've come short

32:36

of really putting your trust in

32:38

Jesus, and that's really important that we get it.

32:40

And I think when we come to Hebrews six

32:42

and you look at the opening verses,

32:44

he says, therefore leaving the elementary

32:47

teaching about the Messiah, let

32:49

us press on to maturity. A lot of people

32:51

think he's saying, let's leave the foundational

32:54

teachings that you received when you first came to faith.

32:57

But he would never tell us to leave that.

32:59

No. Uh, instead. What

33:01

it sounds like what he's saying is you need to

33:03

leave an Old Testament faith,

33:05

which you had and

33:08

moved to a New Testament faith. Now, if you look at

33:10

the six things he tells them to

33:12

move on from. Okay. Each

33:15

of them, five of the six could be

33:17

either an Old Testament teaching or a New Testament

33:19

teaching, but one is

33:22

absolutely an Old Testament. And

33:24

therefore we know he's talking about moving

33:26

from an Old Testament faith to a New Testament

33:29

faith, from faith without Jesus to

33:31

faith in Jesus. Okay, here's

33:33

why I say that. He says over here,

33:36

uh, that what we have to do.

33:39

Not laying again a foundation of

33:41

repentance from dead works.

33:45

Was there repentance in the Old Testament? Yes.

33:47

Uh, faith toward God? Yes.

33:50

Uh, instruction about washing. Let's leave that off.

33:52

Laying on of hands that we have that both old

33:54

and new. Resurrection of the dead. Old

33:57

and new. Eternal judgment. Old and new.

33:59

Both of them. All of those are same. The

34:01

one difference is where it says instructions

34:03

about washing some version say about baptism.

34:06

The word that's used in Greek

34:09

is not the word for believer

34:11

baptism in the New Testament. It

34:13

is the word for Old Testament

34:16

washings, which is the root

34:18

of New Testament, uh,

34:20

baptism. But it is

34:22

specific. It is the word

34:24

for ritual washings from

34:27

the book of Exodus and Leviticus and places

34:29

like that. It is so crucial that

34:31

he says this. So what he's saying is, leave

34:34

that Old Testament faith and

34:36

move on to a full faith in the the

34:38

Old Testament, saying he's coming, the Messiah is coming,

34:40

but now he's here. You have to

34:43

enter into a full faith

34:45

in the Messiah. That's what's

34:47

so significant about

34:49

this. And, uh, now,

34:52

although it does. Yeah.

34:53

It's not saying the Old Testament is bad. No,

34:55

it's saying the Old Testament is pointing toward

34:57

Messiah. Messiah is here.

34:59

So now you need to believe in him and

35:01

to see that he is the fulfillment of

35:03

all the old, not like.

35:04

The Old Testament. Oh, that was bad. Now we're going to go to the good

35:06

stuff. No, you you

35:09

have to move on from the instruction

35:11

to to the reality,

35:13

the shadow to the reality.

35:15

And I'll come back to you, Michael, in just a second.

35:18

I mean, what you just said in Hebrews chapter

35:20

nine, verse ten, it talks about washings,

35:23

same word that we have in Hebrews six,

35:25

but in Hebrews 910 it's

35:28

uh, it's related to the Old Testament

35:30

rites of various kinds of washings. And

35:32

so clearly it's that's that word is

35:34

talking about Old Testament, um,

35:36

lustration.

35:37

Rites. Yeah. Which is why the new American

35:39

Standard, the official version of every

35:42

clinic, uh, has

35:44

the word washings in it, whereas

35:47

I think the King James actually has baptisms,

35:49

right?

35:49

Yeah.

35:50

So I think that's crucial. But now,

35:52

Mike, uh, this is so crucial

35:54

or Cisco or anyone that wants to answer

35:56

this, uh, let's talk about it

35:58

describes their experience in verses

36:00

four through six. It says

36:02

they've been enlightened and tasted

36:05

the heavenly gift and been made

36:07

partakers of the Holy Spirit. What does that talking

36:09

about if it doesn't mean that they've become believers?

36:12

Well, let me let me throw another question at you.

36:14

I always like answering your questions with questions.

36:16

Oh, good. Must be.

36:17

Jewish, I

36:19

guess not. Okay.

36:21

If we have, uh, in

36:23

in Hebrews, what essentially sure seems like a sermon,

36:25

right? I mean, it sure seems like it's written that

36:27

way. Um, could

36:29

this be used

36:31

by God as an encouragement,

36:34

a prodding and exhortation

36:36

to these believers not

36:39

to wander off? You know, sort of saying,

36:41

hey, hey, stay here. Hey, hey, don't leave. Don't go back to your old

36:43

ways. Stay here. And I don't

36:45

think we can leave it there, because then

36:47

you don't want God to deceive these people

36:49

into thinking that somehow, you know, they can they can

36:51

wander off as believers. And yet,

36:53

I do wonder if this is a way that God

36:55

exhorts these believers. Hey,

36:58

hey, don't go back to the old ways. Stay

37:00

here. Keep focused on Christ.

37:02

Jesus is better than all of that other stuff.

37:04

And so maybe he's using that in this way,

37:07

in these in I think.

37:08

I think that's absolutely what he's doing. Because what he

37:10

says in verse nine after

37:12

this warning, he says,

37:14

but beloved, which proves

37:16

it's a sermon because that's what you call people

37:18

in sermons. Yeah, but,

37:20

beloved, we are convinced

37:23

of better things concerning you,

37:25

things that accompany salvation.

37:27

What he is saying is, I've

37:29

given you this warning, but I don't

37:31

believe it fits you. You're going

37:34

to stick with this. We expect you

37:36

to believe. If you're thinking about

37:38

abandoning the faith. Well, maybe I've got

37:40

doubts about you. But

37:44

we're convinced of better things concerning

37:46

you. I think that's really important that we remember

37:49

that. Okay. So let's talk about what

37:51

does it mean to be enlightened.

37:54

And tasted of the heavenly

37:56

gift and all that, right?

37:58

Um, the word enlightened is interesting.

38:00

A lot of people would say, well, see, they're saved, they're saved,

38:02

they're enlightened. But in John chapter

38:05

one, it talks about, uh,

38:07

the coming of Jesus. I think it's Jesus.

38:09

And his presence enlightens

38:11

every man. Uh, it doesn't mean

38:13

that every man is saved, but because of the presence

38:15

of Christ, there's a certain kind of level of enlightening

38:18

that everybody has. We have a better understanding

38:20

of God. And so the enlightenment is

38:22

not necessarily an indication of

38:24

salvation. Also,

38:26

it says that they've tasted of

38:29

the heavenly gift, um,

38:31

and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Well

38:33

tasted is used in Hebrews chapter

38:35

two for Jesus who tasted death for

38:37

us, now he really died. But

38:40

please note, it wasn't permanent. He didn't

38:42

stay dead. And so it's possible

38:44

here that these people have

38:46

tasted in some kind of a superficial,

38:49

temporary, not

38:51

permanent sort of sense of

38:53

the heavenly gift. Um, they've

38:55

been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

38:57

Well, Jesus has said earlier in the book of Hebrews

39:00

to have been a partaker of of

39:02

human nature, and yet his humanity

39:04

while he was fully human. It's also very

39:06

different from ours. He he doesn't have

39:08

a sin nature. He was virgin,

39:10

conceived and born. And so

39:13

while he's a partaker

39:15

of humanity, his humanity is nevertheless

39:17

different from ours. And so I would suggest

39:20

that here the partakers of the Holy Spirit,

39:22

uh, are not necessarily full blown

39:24

partners of the Holy Spirit or possessors

39:27

of the Holy Spirit. I mean, you can you can go

39:29

through all of these different things, and

39:31

they're not necessarily an indication

39:34

of full salvation.

39:35

They've tasted of the powers of the age to

39:37

come. They've sat under the in the community of believers.

39:39

They've experienced all these good

39:41

things. Right. But I call it

39:43

the close but no cigar. You know,

39:46

they've come very close, but they really haven't

39:48

potentially, if they abandon it, it

39:50

proves they've not experienced it themselves.

39:53

But. When it says

39:55

that they can't be renewed again to

39:57

repentance. I would say, humanly

40:00

speaking, once they come close and then abandon.

40:03

They can't be renewed to repentance. Uh,

40:06

but I never know when someone's come to that place.

40:09

And so I'm going to leave that up to God. I'm

40:11

going to keep encouraging people. If I know

40:13

someone that's come close and then abandoned

40:15

the faith, I'm going to try and not give

40:17

up on them, but keep trusting God

40:20

for that. So, uh,

40:22

well, I hope that helps you with your understanding

40:24

of Hebrews six. We're going to come back and deal with real

40:26

quickly with a whole bunch of other

40:29

problem passages. This is the All-Star

40:31

panel of Cisco Coto, Mike Vanlandingham,

40:34

Evil Redneck, and me. I'm trying to help

40:36

keep everyone here on on Target.

40:38

So that's what my role is. We're

40:40

talking about security of the believer.

40:42

Come right back. We're going to talk about it further.

40:57

People often wonder what's Hanukkah all

40:59

about? So with Hanukkah coming

41:01

up in December, Chosen People Ministries

41:03

wants to help Open Line listeners by offering

41:05

a free booklet called The Gospel

41:08

According to Hanukkah. Chosen People Ministries

41:10

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with the good news of Jesus, the Messiah.

41:15

The Gospel According to Hanukkah explains

41:17

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41:19

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41:23

the light of the world. For a free copy

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go to Open Line Radio org.

41:30

Scroll down and you'll see a link that says

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Click on that and you'll be able to sign

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up for your very own copy of The Gospel

41:40

According to Hanukkah. Welcome

41:48

back to Open Line. I'm Michael Riedel. Nick

41:50

and I, right at the outset, this is our,

41:52

uh, been a great day for me. I've had Cisco

41:55

Coto, a professor at Moody, uh,

41:57

joining me to talk about security.

41:59

The believer. Mike Vanlandingham, adjunct professor

42:02

of Bible and theology at Moody. Ever

42:04

riddle. Nick teaches literature and Jewish

42:06

studies at Moody. Thanks so much,

42:08

guys, for joining. Great.

42:10

Yeah, we've had a good time.

42:11

Yeah, it's it's been a lot of fun. And,

42:14

uh, I just want

42:16

to hit a couple of real quickly about

42:18

some of the problem passages. Uh, sometimes

42:20

people really find John 15 six

42:23

troublesome, Michael, don't you think?

42:25

Yes. And I can see why.

42:27

It says, uh, well,

42:29

you can read it if you want.

42:30

Okay. If anyone does not abide in me,

42:32

he's thrown away as a branch and dries up,

42:35

and they gather them and cast them into the fire

42:37

and they are burned. So

42:40

it's interesting that in verse

42:42

two it says, every branch in me that does not bear

42:44

fruit. He takes it away. Every branch that bears

42:46

fruit, he prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

42:49

In verse six, it's the fruitless

42:51

branches who are taken

42:53

away and burned. And

42:55

it's very interesting to me that in

42:57

verse 16, Jesus

43:00

chooses us to bear fruit. He says,

43:02

you did not choose me, but I chose

43:04

you and appointed you,

43:06

that you should go and bear fruit,

43:08

and that your fruit would remain so that whatever

43:10

you ask of the father in my name, he will give it to you.

43:13

So Christ chose us

43:15

to bear fruit. The

43:17

fruitless branches are

43:20

not chosen by him.

43:22

That is fruitless. Believers were

43:24

not chosen by him because it's his purpose

43:26

that they would bear fruit. And if we abide

43:28

in him, and I think that's a reference

43:30

to salvation, then we will bear

43:33

fruit. And if you don't, then

43:35

you are burned and you will face judgment. But

43:37

this is talking about that group of people who

43:39

look like they're associated with Jesus, but

43:41

they're not they are not truly

43:43

safe. They were they.

43:45

Way of looking, is abiding, is someone

43:47

who believes, yes, that's it, that's it.

43:49

And someone who doesn't abide as someone who never

43:51

believed.

43:52

And they're fruitless and they're fruitless.

43:53

Right. Okay, so here's another verse

43:55

that I think people find troublesome

43:58

is Hebrews 1026 and

44:00

following. And the reason they find it troublesome

44:03

is they're afraid that this is them. They

44:05

say, uh. If

44:08

we deliberately sin after receiving the

44:10

knowledge of the truth, there no longer

44:13

remains a sacrifice for sins, but

44:15

a terrifying expectation of

44:17

judgment and the fury of the

44:19

fire about to consume the

44:21

adversaries. Basically, what this is saying,

44:24

they think is if I sin one

44:26

time, I'm done. I'm done for. I've come to

44:28

the Lord. Everything's forgiven, and now I'm done

44:30

for. But I don't believe that. I think the

44:32

deliberate sin is

44:34

having, just like in Hebrews six.

44:37

And, uh, the whole picture

44:39

here of Hebrews six is having

44:41

been part of the community of faith, of

44:43

being so close and

44:45

now commit the sin of

44:48

absolute rejection of Jesus and

44:50

abandoning him. If we commit

44:52

that particular sin,

44:54

then the expectation is

44:57

that we will face judgment. Hey, why

44:59

don't you close us off with something to encourage us?

45:01

Okay, I think Jude, verse

45:04

24 is especially encouraging because

45:06

we're worrying about what can we do that's going to

45:09

that's going to prevent us from having this

45:11

relationship. Jude, 24, says,

45:13

now to him who is able

45:15

to keep you from stumbling

45:17

and to make you stand in the presence

45:19

of his glory, blameless with

45:22

great joy to the only God

45:24

our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah,

45:26

our Lord, be glory, majesty,

45:29

dominion, and authority before

45:31

all time and now

45:33

and forevermore. Amen.

45:36

Amen. So whose responsibility

45:39

is bringing us into the kingdom? It's not

45:41

my good stuff, not my good deeds,

45:43

not my not. Doesn't depend on

45:45

me.

45:46

It's him, God the Father, who

45:48

is able to keep you from stumbling.

45:50

Yeah, the only God our

45:52

Savior through Messiah, Jesus our

45:54

Lord.

45:55

And he'll present us blameless

45:57

before the throne. Not because we are blameless,

45:59

but because Jesus is blameless.

46:02

How good is that? Hey, friends, thanks

46:04

so much for joining me today. Uh,

46:06

Mike. Cisco. Eva,

46:08

I appreciate it so much. Thanks, Tricia and

46:11

Courtney. Great job today. Really helpful.

46:13

And remember, keep in touch with

46:15

Open Line during the week. You can check

46:17

out our web page, Open Line Radio

46:20

org. That page has everything

46:23

you need if you're looking for it, particularly

46:25

if you want to know what our current resource is

46:27

and how to become a kitchen table partner,

46:29

that's a great place to look. Also,

46:31

you can check out my personal web page if you're interested

46:33

in that. Keep reading the Bible. We'll

46:36

talk about it next week. Open line

46:38

with Doctor Michael Redlich is a production

46:40

of Moody Radio, a ministry

46:42

of Moody Bible Institute. Have a great

46:44

weekend. See you next week.