0:00

I'm

0:01

Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super

0:03

Soul Conversations,

0:04

The podcast. I

0:06

believe that one of the most valuable gifts you

0:08

can give yourself is

0:11

time. Taking time

0:13

to be more fully present. Your

0:16

journey to become more inspired and

0:18

connected to the deeper world

0:20

around us

0:21

starts right now.

0:25

Hi

0:25

there. Today, you're gonna

0:27

meet Jarvis j Masters. His book,

0:29

that bird, has my wings, the autobiography

0:32

of an innocent man on death row. was

0:34

released in two thousand nine. He will

0:36

not be here with me today because he's still

0:39

on death row for a crime. He

0:41

says he did not commit. And I'll

0:43

be speaking with him on the phone from San Quentin

0:45

State Prison in California where he has

0:47

lived for the past forty

0:50

one years. Now,

0:52

I first learned about his story back

0:54

in twenty fourteen when I interviewed

0:57

Buddhist monk, Pima children, and

0:59

she suggested that I read this

1:01

no more. His story of a young

1:04

boy victimized by addiction and poverty

1:06

and violence in the foster care system and

1:09

later the justice system touched me so

1:11

deeply and still does today.

1:13

It was back in nineteen eighty one when

1:15

he was only nineteen years old, that

1:18

Jarvis was convicted of armed robbery

1:20

and sent to Saint Quentin. Four

1:22

years later, Prison Guard, Howell

1:24

Burchfield, was stabbed to death while on

1:26

night duty. And though Jarvis was locked

1:29

in his cell at the time of

1:31

the murder, he was among those convicted

1:33

of murder, and he was sentenced to death.

1:36

Jarvis is scheduled to have a hearing in federal

1:38

court at the end of October to overturn

1:40

that conviction and death sentence.

1:43

He has long maintained his

1:45

innocence, and that claim has been

1:47

supported by many others. So

1:49

this conversation is different from any other interview

1:52

we've done with club author. I

1:54

wanted to, of course, sit down with him

1:56

in person, but it is against California

1:59

state law to bring cameras into a prison

2:01

to interview a specific inmate.

2:04

So, thankfully, Jarvis was allowed

2:06

to call me on the phone and that's how

2:08

I'm able to bring you the story. of

2:11

this extraordinary man and the

2:13

author behind our next book

2:15

club selection, that bird

2:18

has my wings.

2:21

Let me guess. You've

2:24

given up hope on getting good sleep in

2:26

this lifetime. If not,

2:28

count your lucky stars. Those of

2:30

us that live with insomnia, good

2:32

sleep feels elusive no matter what

2:34

we do, because we feel like nothing

2:36

is going to work anyway. Either we

2:38

don't sleep at all and we're mentally

2:40

foggy, it's a vicious cycle,

2:43

but it doesn't have to continue. It's

2:45

time we demanded more from our sleep. because

2:47

we deserve more. By understanding

2:50

and talking about both nights and days,

2:52

we can get help to break our old

2:54

sleep habits and develop a healthier

2:56

routine. So talk

2:57

with your doctor about how you can

2:59

seize the night and day, and visit

3:02

seize the night and day dot com to learn

3:04

more. This

3:06

is GlobalTel Inc. You have

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a prepaid call from

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Jarvis Masters. and

3:12

inlaid at the California State

3:14

Prison, San Quintin,

3:17

California. This call and

3:19

your telephone number will be monitored and

3:21

recorded. To accept this say

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Thank you for using GlobalTel Link.

3:29

Hello?

3:29

Hey, Jarvis. Hey.

3:32

How are you doing? Oh my gosh.

3:34

This has been a conversation that has

3:37

literally been a decade in the make Thank

3:39

you so much for speaking

3:41

with me today. How are you

3:43

feeling today? How does it feel to

3:45

finally be having this conversation? Well,

3:48

you know, the first thing I thought about when

3:50

I knew that I will be having

3:52

this conversation is to say thank you

3:54

and thank you and thank you for

3:56

coming so many years that I've

3:58

I've seen you raise your hand

3:59

and

4:00

help me in ways where, you know,

4:03

it just seemed like I

4:04

every time I got a second win, you

4:06

know, And I really appreciate

4:09

that. And that's the first

4:11

thing I knew I was gonna say to you.

4:13

Well, Listen

4:15

when Pima Children first introduced

4:17

me to this story almost

4:20

a decade ago, and I read

4:22

it. I felt

4:24

for you. And from time to time,

4:26

I have to say, it's not like I think of

4:28

you every day. But I think of

4:30

you in the moments when I

4:34

feel some of my

4:36

greatest sense of freedoms, like --

4:38

Right. I live in a space where I'm surrounded

4:40

by trees in nature. I

4:42

love to hike on the mountain in Maui

4:44

and I have these god moments

4:47

in I often think of

4:49

you not

4:51

being able to see the same

4:53

sky that I get to see and,

4:55

you know, I was hiking the other day and like the

4:57

sun was, like, reflecting

5:00

off of the ocean in such a way that you

5:02

could see the clouds

5:04

also in the ocean,

5:07

you've you ever imagined or seen that

5:09

where you can see so that it

5:11

looks like so the ocean's like a mirror. Right.

5:13

And I was thinking, oh, yeah. You

5:17

don't get to experience that. And I think

5:19

about No. I don't. I don't.

5:21

I don't. And when

5:23

you're

5:23

in in that sense of that

5:26

state of

5:26

being incarcerated from for forty

5:28

one years, do you

5:30

still long

5:31

to see the sky?

5:33

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

5:35

III think I told somebody one

5:38

time that question was,

5:40

what would the first thing you wanna do when you

5:42

get out? And I guess they suppose that I

5:44

would wanna go somewhere, you know?

5:46

And my answer was, you know, I just

5:48

wanna be outside at night. I

5:51

wanna know what night feels like,

5:53

you know, that

5:56

is something that that just comes to

5:58

me every time when it gets dark on

6:00

the window. opposite of my

6:02

cell, I I think, about

6:04

night and what that

6:06

air might feel like. So

6:08

it means a lot to

6:11

me that, you know, I could see certain

6:13

things to other people, but

6:16

it also means a lot to me that

6:18

other people can't see things

6:20

and not see things. Yeah. It's

6:23

sort of like someone drives Pacific

6:25

Highway and and

6:27

they just going for a ride or something, and

6:29

they never turn to pivot to see the

6:31

ocean because it's just

6:33

there. You know? Yeah. It's just there. No

6:35

one looks at that. And

6:38

I I think about that.

6:40

I think that a lot of

6:42

times, that's all I would wanna do is

6:45

see that. Yeah. I would just ask

6:47

park. Let's just stop right here.

6:49

So I I do I do think about that

6:51

a lot, but I also

6:54

think about

6:55

all the many times people

6:57

get a chance to see something and they just

6:59

don't see it. Yes. I remember you

7:01

described in that bird has

7:03

my wings the moment that you

7:05

are sent to the hospital for a

7:07

hearing problem and you were so surprised

7:09

because you just casually mentioned that that

7:11

and then they come and take you to the hospital

7:14

and you didn't know where you were being

7:16

taken to and the experience of

7:18

being in the car. Can you talk about that for a

7:20

moment? Is that the last time you were out?

7:22

No. I've been out several other times,

7:24

one a couple times when I went on

7:26

a hunger strike, but

7:29

the ones time that you're you're

7:31

referring to yeah. That's the time where I

7:33

kept seeing everybody talking to themselves in

7:35

the car, and I didn't even know

7:38

that people had these kind of cell phones where

7:40

they can just talk, you know. I

7:43

thought I was tripping. Right? I thought

7:45

this was, like, And I asked

7:47

the guy, I said, hey, man. Why does everybody

7:50

talk to themselves like this? Just for real.

7:52

And, you know, they laughed and says,

7:54

no. No. You look closely. They have some

7:56

been in the air. And I

7:58

said, whoa. Yeah. And it

8:00

felt like I asked the dumb question, but

8:03

I remember my first action

8:05

seeing that. You know, my first reaction Wow.

8:08

because the world has changed so much. The

8:10

world has changed so wow. I

8:13

mean, forty one years ago.

8:15

Wow.

8:16

I'm telling you, I'm it's

8:19

the same thing. I mean, when when

8:21

you're on these highways and there, you know,

8:23

when you get to this section where

8:25

cargoes one way and the other one goes this

8:27

way and it just seems like they're moving

8:29

in this, you know, harmonious

8:32

flow of motion. I mean, that is the

8:34

most scariest thing in the world of me because

8:36

I just didn't know how

8:39

all these cars would just move in

8:41

all these directions, and they

8:43

just seemed like they knew what they were doing.

8:45

For me, I just knew we were gonna

8:47

get hit. I just everything

8:50

in my bed says, this car is gonna

8:52

crash, you know. Mhmm. But that is

8:54

the forty one years. That's what

8:57

forty one years feels like.

8:59

Reading

8:59

your memoir, that

9:01

bird has my wings, the

9:04

neglect, the trail, the violence you witnessed

9:06

and participated in. I

9:08

thought about you

9:10

surviving it. sort

9:12

of surviving it. If we wanna call being on

9:14

death row surviving it, you at least

9:17

are still alive and thought about all

9:19

the kids who went through

9:21

it, are still going through it

9:23

and never survived. You know,

9:25

I wrote a book last year, co

9:27

authored a book with the leading

9:29

child trauma specialist in the country is

9:31

a man named doctor Bruce Perry who

9:34

I'd been interviewing for years about

9:37

what happens to young kids and

9:39

their brains when they are

9:41

raised in traumatic environments.

9:44

And last year, we just excited

9:46

to sort of put that into full

9:48

print. And the book is called what

9:51

happened to you. and

9:53

mostly he speaks about how what

9:55

happens to you at a very early

9:58

age. Right. From the time

10:00

you are, two months in the crib, whether

10:02

or not you're getting the attention that you

10:04

need when you cry, whether or not

10:06

you're getting the nurturing and support you need

10:08

up until the time that you're six years

10:10

old when your personality is

10:13

basically formed that

10:15

you are based on the way

10:17

you're being treated forming

10:19

your opinion about what the

10:21

world is and what the world

10:23

can and will do

10:25

to and for you. So --

10:27

Right. -- what what happened to you?

10:29

Do you think that shaped

10:31

your worldview? that

10:34

allowed you to be where you are right

10:36

now. I mean, when we read

10:38

that bird has my wings, it's

10:40

a study. in --

10:42

Right. -- how the trauma of

10:44

what happened to you as a little boy

10:46

-- Right. --

10:48

affected the way you felt about how

10:51

you would be received in the world

10:53

-- Right. --

10:54

and affected your your actions.

10:56

Can you tell us, I know,

10:58

We we have a short time. But can you tell us

11:00

how what happened to you? Has put

11:02

you where you are? Well, I I think what shape my

11:05

worldview is really

11:07

how I was treated by my how

11:09

my parents were treated. I

11:11

I always thought as a kid, they

11:13

were not being treated well. I always thought

11:15

she was sick and they didn't do anything for her.

11:17

And I always felt

11:19

like there was something that

11:21

was against me.

11:24

but I was always saved by somewhat

11:26

caring for me. What

11:28

got me into this place was the

11:30

fact that I just stop

11:32

caring about who I was. I didn't

11:34

wanna know who I was. You know? I

11:36

was, like, you know, in a book where I

11:39

just was angry, you

11:41

know, and upset. And a

11:43

lot of that anger didn't

11:46

really tell me on agree it just had

11:48

the attitude and the

11:50

behavior pattern of anger. So

11:52

I think that's what really, really

11:54

set it off and made

11:56

made

11:57

it almost, you know, inevitable that

11:59

I would end up in a place like

12:01

this.

12:02

Well,

12:03

I can't get over the fact that you wrote

12:05

the book while in solitary confinement with just

12:07

a filler of a pen. Yesterday, I took

12:10

out the filler of a pen and tried

12:12

to write with it. And, like,

12:14

after five

12:14

minutes, my the the tips of

12:16

my fingers start hurting and they go

12:18

red and it's, like, That

12:21

is a difficult thing to do.

12:24

I tried to walk

12:26

in your shoes or walk in your

12:28

tenmanship a moment. And I was like, well, I

12:30

would I would have given up on this thing. No.

12:32

I mean, when I first got a pen, a

12:34

regular sized pen, I didn't like it. It was too

12:36

fat. You know? Yeah. it just

12:38

didn't feel right in my hand. That

12:40

thin filler though, one

12:42

thing about that open when you write

12:44

with that thing, it does not

12:46

allow you to go

12:49

quickly over subjects. Right.

12:51

because you're whole you're gripping it so tightly.

12:53

You're gripping it so tightly. Yeah. It slows you

12:55

down. This

12:56

call and your telephone number will be

12:58

monitored and recorded.

12:59

It doesn't allow you to

13:01

skip anything. It's just

13:04

makes you stop at points in

13:06

your life that are just devastating.

13:09

And I felt that all the way

13:11

through the book, I

13:13

wrote some things that I thought I would

13:15

never write about. Give us an example.

13:17

There was a part in the book where

13:19

my father was whipping me and my

13:21

sisters or something. And I heard my

13:23

mother say, just don't kill them.

13:25

Yeah. You know, when

13:28

I was not gonna ever say something

13:30

like that. I I sorta suppressed

13:32

it. And when I wrote

13:34

that, I said, whoa.

13:36

Well, my

13:38

perception was challenged

13:40

of what I always thought my mother was.

13:43

Yeah. It

13:43

definitely went into this challenge

13:46

mode. And I felt I

13:48

felt it being real evil

13:50

to say and Can

13:52

I interrupt you here because, you know,

13:54

what I have seen over the years with interviewing thousands

13:56

of kids who were

13:59

abused since I

13:59

was like a young reporter. So

14:02

maybe hundreds of kids would be more accurate.

14:04

But interviewing multiple kids

14:06

who reviews they still try to

14:08

find a way to

14:10

love the parent, to defend

14:13

the parent. When in

14:15

fact, It's so

14:17

hard to admit that your mother

14:19

did not protect you

14:21

and couldn't protect you. Right.

14:23

Right.

14:24

And when I heard that, I

14:26

heard that I saw that. I saw

14:28

that visual. And

14:30

if I could have said

14:32

something differently about that I

14:34

would have, but it

14:36

was already set, you know.

14:39

Yeah. it just felt like

14:41

if I don't keep this, something's

14:43

missing. You know? Yeah.

14:45

You know, there's just something

14:47

that's not real about this. Was it

14:49

also

14:49

hard to write about her

14:51

being beaten by your father in that

14:53

moment where she's crawling on the

14:55

floor and there you all are under the bed? Was

14:57

that hard?

14:58

No.

15:00

She was, like, some

15:03

some kind of hero. You know,

15:05

she was the hero.

15:07

I mean, she was

15:09

the protector. If I thought about

15:11

who was gonna read it, I probably would have

15:13

thought that. But I

15:15

was like, I'm so glad

15:17

she sacrificed like that

15:19

because we wouldn't

15:21

even be alive. You

15:23

wouldn't even be alive now,

15:25

had your mother not in that moment,

15:27

that particular moment when your father

15:29

was coming in and wanted to apparently

15:32

kill his own children as

15:34

well as kill her that she crawled

15:36

on the floor and fought

15:38

she fought him and then ended up crawling on

15:40

the floor and coming reaching for

15:43

you children on the bed. So you saw her as a I

15:45

can see that how she would be a

15:47

a hero in this moment. Yeah.

15:49

you wouldn't be thinking of why did you put us in this

15:51

position in the first place? You're thinking you

15:53

saved us in this position. Yeah.

15:55

That yeah. All of us felt that

15:57

way. Yeah. we didn't necessarily

15:59

know what

15:59

blood was. But yeah.

16:02

She you can hear her and

16:05

you you know that she was she

16:07

was fighting for us. So, you

16:09

know, I always thought that, Oprah, I

16:11

always thought that, you know, that was one

16:13

reason for me to love or even more.

16:15

Yes.

16:15

So you talked about you wouldn't even be

16:17

alive today

16:18

had your mother not in that moment

16:20

rescued the children. that that story that

16:22

you tell the very beginning of the book. But

16:24

-- Right. -- there were you it's because

16:26

of the years of neglect. in

16:29

the years of not being

16:31

seen and valued. What I couldn't believe,

16:33

but then I remember this was this was a

16:35

different time. This was like seventies

16:38

and not after the years of the

16:40

Oprah Winfrey show where we talk so

16:42

much about child abuse and child

16:44

neglect and also child

16:46

care services. I couldn't believe your

16:48

child your your child care

16:50

providers who would go into these

16:52

homes and be tricked BY

16:53

THE FOSTER CARE PARENTS,

16:56

LIKE

16:56

AREN'T THERE'S SIGNALS YOU WOULD BE LOOKING FOR

16:58

WHETHER OR NOT WHAT THEY'RE PRESENING TO US IS

17:00

REAL OR NOT. Well,

17:01

I never seen anybody lie

17:03

so good at, you know, number one. And I

17:06

never thought that

17:09

they would over oversee

17:12

something. Number two. And

17:14

number three, I guess, it was because

17:17

I knew there were desperately.

17:19

I didn't know this, but I sorta

17:21

did, and they were desperately trying

17:23

to find homes for people, you know,

17:25

for kids. How do I know

17:28

that I I know that because it just

17:30

felt like they will have

17:32

that little conversation with you and you you're

17:34

driving your car and they said, well, you

17:36

we we know you're gonna like this home. We know you're

17:39

gonna like this home. There's not a

17:41

home better than this for, you know, that kind

17:43

of conversation. And III

17:46

tried liking it. Yeah. What

17:49

I learned from this process of reading the book

17:51

is that there are people out there,

17:54

certainly amazing generous

17:55

generous open minded

17:58

caring people like Mimi and Dennis

17:59

who took you in, who want to

18:02

do it all the right reasons. And

18:04

then there are people who

18:06

are in the foster

18:08

care business because they want

18:10

the money and they really

18:12

don't like children. So

18:14

when you encounter somebody who really

18:16

doesn't like you and is trying

18:18

to do whatever they can to torment

18:21

and destroy you. It

18:23

also devalued you in a sense. Don't

18:25

you think? Right. Right.

18:28

Right. You know as the business

18:30

well, I didn't know as business until

18:32

after the second foster home when

18:35

they stack you up, you know, when they

18:37

have triple bump bitch and

18:39

all that in one room. But once

18:41

I learned how to run away,

18:44

there was nothing gonna hurt anymore.

18:46

Mhmm. When I knew how to run away, it

18:48

was over with. You can put me in any home

18:50

you want me in, but after

18:53

an hour, it always compared

18:55

them to Dennis and maybe, you know,

18:57

if they wouldn't claim it up to that.

18:59

Yeah. It's it's the gig top

19:01

But, you know, like you said, back

19:03

in those days, you know, you

19:05

can hitchhiking, you didn't feel threatened

19:07

by that. Right. So hitchhiking

19:11

was not something that we know

19:13

today? No. You couldn't do it now.

19:14

As a kid. Nope. Not

19:16

for one second. So I love

19:18

the moment in the book where you described

19:20

you still felt loved

19:23

and you were carried by the love

19:25

that other people had for you. Let's talk

19:27

about Mimi and Dennis that first foster

19:29

home for a while. Do you think that that

19:31

was the establishing root?

19:33

The love that they were able to give to

19:35

you is the thing that has carried you through

19:37

even to this moment. Yeah.

19:40

Yeah. It was

19:40

that that was the that was the marker

19:42

right there. That

19:44

was the marker.

19:45

And if you

19:47

didn't live up to that, that was

19:49

not anything else was just not

19:52

acceptable. Yeah. I asked that question

19:54

because for people who are listening to us or

19:57

reading this, I want them to know,

19:59

want people to know. When you

20:01

love somebody, fear and

20:04

you really allow them to see that

20:06

they're valued, that you

20:08

literally leave a heart print that can last

20:10

forever and that can take you through forty

20:12

one years in prison

20:15

and, you know,

20:15

on death row because that's what's

20:17

happened to you. Howard Bauchner: Right.

20:19

I mean, that I

20:21

can say that today. that

20:23

right there was what

20:25

I remember the most. Anything

20:28

short of that, you know, over

20:30

the years, so, like, I

20:33

mean, I was at one

20:35

point where I stopped trying to

20:37

describe it to people because they couldn't

20:39

believe I was actually in a

20:41

home like that. you know Yeah. Where somebody loved

20:43

you. Oh, yeah. I don't like that.

20:45

That can't be possible. You

20:47

know. And this

20:48

is not possible. You just lie.

20:50

Why are you lying like that? That's what you want to

20:52

happen. It was never like that. So

20:54

you it doesn't feel like in the

20:56

way you write that bird has my wings, because

20:58

you've been in boys home and boys home and boys home, it doesn't

21:00

feel like you ever feared actually

21:04

going to prison.

21:06

It feels like you

21:09

always sort of in the back of your mind knew that

21:11

that eventually was what was gonna happen to

21:13

you. Is

21:13

that correct? Yeah.

21:15

Yeah. Yeah. And just

21:18

to give you an example, that one of

21:20

the first tattoos I ever

21:22

had was picture of a gun

21:24

tower. Yep. So, you

21:26

know, yeah, that was the sign.

21:28

I never thought there was another

21:30

direction. you know, it was at one time when I got a a year ago.

21:32

I thought that, but I I

21:34

always thought that my

21:38

what was going on internally was gonna

21:40

end up putting me in prison or

21:42

dead. Are you

21:44

surprised that you're still alive? I

21:47

I am. I am surprised

21:49

that I'm still alive, and

21:51

I'm happy that my mother

21:53

gave me a chance. as well.

21:55

Yes. You know, you put both of those together.

21:58

There seems to be some kind of passage

22:02

that's opening rather no matter

22:04

how small it is, it opens

22:06

a way of thinking that at

22:08

some point, you know, you're gonna run into

22:10

something that's gonna kill you. But

22:12

I always I always

22:14

believe that. Yes. Yeah.

22:16

So you always thought that you would end up in

22:18

prison. You did not think you would end up on

22:20

death row because I remember the first Armory. I think

22:22

the one you described in the book where you all

22:24

went into the store and, you know, you

22:26

got convinced that you were gonna make some money

22:29

and that whole thing went awry,

22:31

but you being worried

22:34

because guns went off, you were

22:36

worried that somebody had possibly

22:38

gotten shot. yeah.

22:40

Oh, yeah.

22:43

Yes. III

22:45

did. I mean, I never ever

22:48

thought that Jeff Rowe had you

22:50

know, Jeff Rowe was just

22:52

Charles Masson type stuff, you know.

22:55

Yeah. I never thought Defro had

22:57

any kind of name for me.

22:59

I I shoot up until the

23:01

time I was sentenced to death. I

23:03

I always felt so eye for

23:05

people who were on death row. It was just

23:08

so far away from my thinking.

23:10

And

23:10

so, for a long time after

23:13

being put on death row, for

23:15

a crime that you say you did not commit.

23:17

It's still so baffling

23:20

to even me

23:22

now to this day even when I saw

23:24

the story that David

23:26

Begmeel just did on

23:26

CBS. It makes no sense that you're

23:29

on death row for something you haven't

23:31

even been For for

23:33

the people who actually committed to crime

23:35

and they know committed to crime

23:36

are not on death row, but you are

23:39

on death row for

23:41

conspiracy to commit the crime. It makes

23:43

no sense. Can you explain it

23:45

to us? Right.

23:46

I've always

23:49

took the position of this.

23:51

What that judge said to me

23:54

was how I got on

23:56

death row. There's no

23:58

other way I can see

23:59

myself coming

24:01

to death row. Then and

24:03

now other than someone

24:06

dehumanizing you to the point where

24:08

they don't recognize you as a human

24:10

being. So what are you saying? Tell us

24:12

what the judge said. she

24:13

she basically said that needles are you

24:16

you shouldn't have never been born.

24:18

You know, it's that. I

24:20

mean, how can you

24:22

not see

24:23

that and not have this attitude

24:26

about sending you to death. That

24:28

was my take on it. Yeah.

24:30

She

24:30

she says something that

24:32

was really painful. Like, yeah, she was

24:34

saying I don't even know why your mother had you

24:36

because people who don't know don't know how to

24:38

take care of children shouldn't have

24:41

them shouldn't have them and you really shouldn't have been

24:43

there and is basically what she said.

24:45

Yeah. This

24:45

call and or telephone number will

24:47

be monitored and recorded. and

24:49

you're twenty three, twenty four years old in

24:51

this kind of trouble knowing that you never

24:53

done anything in your life like this.

24:56

When they say something like that,

24:58

You hear it. You hear it

25:01

in the most shortest way.

25:03

Bottom line, it shouldn't have been

25:05

born. And that

25:05

made you feel what, Jarvis? man.

25:09

I you know,

25:11

that's the thing that just makes you stare at a

25:13

wall for a long time. You know? Mhmm.

25:15

That's the thing that makes you just

25:19

try to pace yourself. I mean, it

25:21

was just It was just

25:23

no. I don't it was like this.

25:25

I remember when I first got taken

25:27

away from my parents. My feet couldn't even

25:29

hit the grille. And that Jill was

25:31

trying to do everything to make it

25:33

seem that I I deserve to

25:35

be alive. I deserve to have

25:37

parents. I deserve to blah blah

25:40

blah. Fast forward twenty

25:42

years, but not even twenty

25:44

years. Eighteen years. And

25:46

now it's the same thing, but

25:48

right now now I'm being

25:49

sentenced to death. So

25:52

I did see the contrast between that just

25:54

sitting at the wall.

25:57

Mhmm. But, you know, to your

25:59

point, III

26:01

didn't understand it. Yeah. I didn't

26:04

understand it. I

26:06

think I was not

26:08

trying to defend myself. I

26:11

was not someone who was

26:13

saying, this is my business. I'm

26:15

gonna try to defend myself.

26:17

No. I knew you were

26:19

in trouble, and I knew

26:21

that I would be facing AAAAAAA

26:24

more quicker death if I got into

26:26

their business, you know. Yeah.

26:29

So I

26:29

just kicked back and sort of,

26:31

like, watched the show, but I

26:34

never thought that by

26:34

doing that, I would end

26:36

up on death row and that, you know, that

26:39

was shocking. I I did

26:41

see that come in. I didn't begin to even

26:43

think that that one might be the case.

26:46

Mhmm. I thought, you know, the

26:48

jury's gonna find me not guilty, and that

26:50

would've been it. For

26:51

a long time after being put on death row, you

26:53

must have felt abandoned by the justice system

26:55

and by everybody, but little by little

26:57

people began to take up cause to help

26:59

you fight for yourself. What does it feel

27:01

like now to know that you have so many people

27:03

on your side rooting for you? Everything

27:06

that judge said is

27:08

not true, number one. And I

27:10

had a I had a I

27:12

had to say it, but I had a greater

27:15

chance on that road

27:17

to find

27:18

my true

27:20

self. And that's such a

27:23

contradiction. Yeah. I mean, it actually cures me up

27:25

to even think that. Yeah.

27:27

It's kind of like, I

27:29

remember I had the great honor

27:32

I'm not just name dropping here because this is one of

27:34

the great honors of my life. I got invited

27:36

to spend time at Nelson Mandela's

27:39

house and I ended up spending ten

27:41

nights and having twenty nine meals with him

27:43

-- Wow. -- sitting at his table

27:46

every day. And one of the things

27:48

he shared with me was

27:50

that

27:51

how, you know, he was

27:53

changed by prison. That prison

27:56

actually made him a different kind of

27:58

man. Right. and certainly

27:59

the same thing can be said for

28:02

you that

28:05

how does you had true

28:06

spiritual awakening there, and that's hard enough

28:08

to do when circumstances are

28:11

easy. How would you describe

28:13

the process of coming to

28:15

terms with yourself? Well,

28:18

I

28:18

I think by

28:19

being in the kind

28:20

of trouble I was and

28:24

that

28:24

in order to save my life,

28:27

they they would have to go into my

28:29

path, you know, and they create

28:31

a narrative it was some kind

28:33

of eighty page, whatever thing

28:35

they did, you know, trying

28:37

to trace my

28:39

background and who I was and

28:41

parents and all that. And I didn't

28:43

like it. I thought it was really professional

28:46

stuff. I thought this is what they get

28:48

paid to do. They

28:51

script me in what I felt

28:53

had been common throughout

28:56

my younger years. and

28:59

I got mad at my attorney. I said, no.

29:01

No. No. What I'm a do is I'm a write my old

29:03

story, you know. I'm a write it

29:05

myself, you know. I I

29:07

did poorly at it, but I did bring

29:09

out the points that I thought was

29:12

that moved me from one way to

29:14

the And then when

29:16

I got III

29:18

met Melody, my investigator, and

29:21

she said, you know, these are some good stories

29:23

here. Could you put them in context,

29:25

you know. And I said, yeah. But

29:27

at the same time, she was giving me

29:29

these books on masculinity, you

29:31

know, because I was just so stuck

29:34

up and thinking that, you know, I was the bottleneck.

29:36

I was just like everyone else. You know,

29:38

I was wearing my coat the same way

29:40

and blah blah blah.

29:44

And I started reading about masculinity,

29:46

what a man was, and I

29:48

started noticing things that were

29:51

signs, you know, that was like,

29:53

whoa. And one of those

29:55

first stories I wrote was scars where

29:57

I was just I was just seeing the scars

29:59

of people after on the And

30:02

that wasn't a way he need

30:04

for me. I mean, that was a life changing

30:06

experience because I

30:08

realized that I was able to see things

30:11

and write about them. And

30:13

when you first get

30:15

published, you know, in the story, it it

30:17

seems like it's just fuel, you know, you

30:19

wanna write more, you wanna write

30:21

more, that acknowledgment. And

30:23

I think that was

30:25

to start, you know. And then I

30:28

found some template

30:30

that was going to give

30:33

me a free book and it was life relationship

30:35

to death. And I I

30:37

was more curious about how, you know,

30:39

how that works. not

30:42

so much from a spiritual point of view, but

30:44

just how that works. And

30:46

then I start using my

30:49

stories to write

30:51

the narrative of other people's stories,

30:53

you know. And

30:55

that just seems move me

30:58

into knowing more people -- Mhmm. --

31:00

and knowing those people seem to

31:02

make me feel better about

31:04

myself. you know, and as I started

31:06

to feel better about myself, I started

31:08

to care about other people.

31:10

And it just went from there

31:13

till I met Payment. Then I

31:15

met a couple of other people, you

31:17

know, and it just started

31:19

to validate me

31:21

as someone who can

31:24

make this place the best of me or the

31:26

worst of me. I

31:28

start dating myself, I start meditating

31:31

well, I started being quiet first and then I

31:33

start meditating.

31:36

And then I just moved to

31:38

all these corridors. Okay?

31:41

offers just move to a mall? corridors

31:43

in your

31:43

own mind, you mean? Well, you know

31:45

yeah. Sort of. Yeah.

31:47

In my own mind because I

31:50

I start you know, people start

31:52

wanting you to write more.

31:54

Buddhist teachers are starting to wanna

31:56

visit you more. friends,

31:59

new friends, become old friends,

32:01

and it just moved

32:04

me to things that I could had

32:06

never imagine

32:07

and meet meeting

32:10

you to I

32:11

mean, knowing that you had read

32:14

my books, those years

32:16

ago was just another way

32:18

of me seeing it whoa. And I

32:20

started really, really

32:22

loving myself, liking myself

32:24

more than I could anyone else,

32:26

you know? This is this is

32:28

a thing I want you to share with

32:31

because I think for so many people, I love what

32:33

you said in the very beginning of our

32:35

conversation. People are out here

32:37

who can see, who

32:39

don't see. who are passing the ocean

32:41

every day, but don't notice the ocean. They're just

32:43

driving down the 101 or driving down the

32:45

Pacifico Highway, and it's

32:47

just there. They're not noticing the people on the street corners are

32:49

paying attention to the to

32:50

the sky. Tell me

32:52

how one survives with

32:56

one's mind intact

32:59

because so many people

33:01

lose their mind particularly

33:04

on death row and in solitary confinement.

33:07

How have you managed to keep your

33:09

mind intact? and

33:11

to stay a positive being

33:13

in a world where

33:16

you rarely get to see the sky.

33:18

When I

33:19

started realizing there was an

33:21

opposite of me that wanted to see

33:23

the sky,

33:24

I started realizing that,

33:27

you know, what people say? I'm a go

33:29

to to the refrigerator, and

33:31

I'm a go find something neat. I'm on the

33:33

phone and I hear them say this. I instantly

33:36

know when that refrigerator

33:39

opens, there's a certain freedom

33:42

that that

33:43

person doesn't see. And I

33:45

take hard to that. I don't feel a lot

33:47

about it, but I realized boom

33:50

right there. You know, that's where I

33:52

wanna be. It's not me being where

33:54

the ocean is. It's me

33:56

being able to make that instant choice.

33:59

that

33:59

ah carries

34:01

me to, you know, wanting to

34:03

see greater and more things.

34:05

How did I not

34:07

lose my mind. Sometimes I think, you

34:09

know, I'm not

34:11

moving. It just

34:14

I lost my mind because I can't

34:17

I haven't lost it, you

34:19

know. So I think

34:21

it's just people And

34:24

I

34:24

think what I found out

34:25

more so than anything else is

34:28

that there's so much

34:30

suffering outside

34:32

the prison that you know that

34:34

they themselves are somewhere

34:35

in prison? Yes. During

34:37

the pandemic, I'm sure you

34:39

heard from people

34:40

I used to hear people say this all the

34:42

time during the pandemic. I know a lot of people who actually

34:44

use the term, you know,

34:48

I feel like I'm in prison. I feel like I've been, you know,

34:50

locked up. I mean,

34:52

a lot of people felt

34:54

that which I say, well, you

34:56

don't know what that's like until you actually don't

34:58

have the choice to, as you say,

35:00

go to refrigerator. Take a bath when you

35:02

want to. Get a glass of water when you want

35:04

get a soda when you want to. Get you know, watch

35:06

television when you you know, all those different things that most people

35:09

just sort of take for

35:12

granted and and are

35:14

not relating to

35:16

what it really means when

35:18

you are locked up. Right.

35:22

Right. Right. Right. I'm

35:22

sure you had people say that to you too who

35:25

were doing going through the pandemic. Well, yeah. You

35:27

know, yeah. You know, like, you know, I and

35:29

now I know you're paying Jarvis. you

35:31

know, now know what it feels like to be in

35:34

prison, you know.

35:36

I know now what is

35:38

not when you can't go outside.

35:42

And to

35:42

me, I feel like, you know, I'm not

35:44

gonna burst a bubble on this. Mhmm. That's

35:46

what you're feeling. That's what

35:49

you're feeling. That's cool. But, you

35:51

know, in my mind, I'm thinking, are you are you fucking kidding

35:53

me? I mean, seriously. No.

35:58

But

35:59

if just, you know, I'm a

36:01

lot of times, I don't I wanna still

36:04

be their friends too, you know. So Yeah.

36:06

So you're not gonna say you don't even know what you're

36:10

talking about. No. You all

36:11

know what you're talking about, you know. And it's sad

36:13

to think that you do. And

36:15

and I I have a

36:17

few friends who try to remind

36:20

me of their prison days.

36:22

Yeah. But yeah. You're right. I mean, I

36:24

I just don't say anything. What

36:26

was the hardest part of writing that bird

36:28

has my wing? telling the truth.

36:30

Yeah.

36:30

About what had happened

36:33

to

36:33

you? Yeah.

36:35

Yeah. telling the

36:37

truth. That was the hardest part. I

36:40

wanna read,

36:40

you know, you've been on death row now

36:42

since nineteen ninety. Whoa.

36:46

And I Even just reading that, I just

36:48

think, who all the things that

36:50

have happened in my life since

36:52

nineteen ninety, And

36:54

now in October, a US federal court is gonna your appeal. Are you

36:57

hopeful for a good outcome? Yeah.

36:59

I'm hopeful

37:00

for a good outcome, but

37:04

I wanna realize that there are two of

37:06

them. I have to be in a good

37:08

place if there's not

37:10

a kind outcome I want.

37:13

So this is where the Buddhism slips

37:16

into me, you know, comes out where I

37:18

realized that there's two sides

37:20

of this. you know, and you gotta figure

37:22

out a way to be in both. You have to realize that both

37:24

outcomes are there. And

37:27

you can't get you

37:30

can't move more closer to

37:32

getting out and you

37:34

can't go as far as to think

37:36

you're not getting out. you know, where is

37:38

the center at? And

37:40

that's the hard part right there.

37:42

Because so many times, she just

37:44

know that you got the right legal team, you got the right

37:46

things going on that

37:48

for twenty five years, you know, and

37:50

you had a chance to talk to

37:54

Joe Baxter. you know, it's just hasn't been the

37:56

same. You know? This is a whole new

37:58

different feeling right now.

38:00

Yeah. You had the wrong

38:02

team. Very much.

38:03

So, I mean, twenty five years, my life was

38:05

just gone. Yeah. And you talked about,

38:07

you know, how do you settle

38:10

with that,

38:10

you know? How do you live with that?

38:12

Yeah. That's painful. That tears me

38:14

up because I do

38:17

again is just a matter of you trusting people

38:19

again. And that trust

38:21

is based on friendships

38:24

and not the quality of lawyer you got.

38:26

Yeah. I wanna read this

38:27

excerpt from your book. You say in

38:29

spite of the pain and hurt however much

38:31

I engaged and craze by

38:34

violence and lashed out at the world for thinking it owed me something. In

38:36

the center in my heart, there was always

38:38

something of a natural goodness.

38:41

This may have been the place from which

38:43

my fears poured when I was a young child.

38:45

In that same place, the violence later grew

38:47

so much larger than life that I

38:49

stopped believing in myself. but I finally

38:51

came into a situation where I dared myself to reclaim that natural

38:53

goodness. Right. That I reclaimed it on San Quentin's

38:56

death row doesn't change who

38:58

I am.

39:00

I've experienced an inner journey that brought me to

39:02

the life affirming realization that

39:04

my violent actions were

39:07

never a reflection of who

39:09

I really am. So who

39:10

are you really?

39:12

Can you answer that?

39:14

Yeah.

39:15

I got it. yeah,

39:18

a human being, you know, and I'm

39:20

not just saying that to say that,

39:23

but I've never felt

39:26

that way of saying a human being.

39:29

Who says

39:29

that out there? And we'll

39:31

get a chance to realize that no

39:33

matter where you

39:36

are. Okay. What is a

39:37

day like for you? I mean, what do you

39:38

do all day? Are you

39:40

just staring at a wall all day? Or

39:44

No. No. Are you still writing? What's happening?

39:46

I wake up, you know, around six, six

39:48

thirty. I

39:49

know I'm gonna exercise because

39:51

if I don't, everything not

39:54

gonna go right. So I exercise for about

39:56

thirty, forty minutes, you know, whatever I think

39:58

I can get away with,

39:59

without doing a

40:02

whole lot. Is this in your how

40:04

how big is your cell?

40:07

Nine by four.

40:08

march for Okay.

40:12

And

40:12

I About the size

40:14

of my audio booth here, I mean, yes.

40:16

Mhmm.

40:17

it oh, for

40:19

now, say that. Is it you

40:21

know it? Yeah. Yeah.

40:24

It is. Just so

40:25

you get a picture where I am. I have a

40:27

picture where you are.

40:29

Okay. Absolutely. Absolutely.

40:32

So after I exercise, I really don't know what I'm gonna

40:34

do, but I know I I'm

40:36

either gonna do some writing.

40:39

are I'm going to see what's

40:41

on the news with this thirteen

40:44

inch color TVI have.

40:46

It did around eleven twelve eleven

40:48

o'clock, I usually have phone

40:50

time, and I spent, you know, an hour,

40:52

hour and a half on the

40:54

phone. Then around one o'clock, I

40:56

know we're gonna have showers, and

40:58

we do the shower thing. And

41:00

around two, I start

41:02

riding. Let me

41:04

go up to about four, five o'clock

41:07

And then the news thing comes back and then

41:09

me talking to people on the on the

41:11

tier out on the

41:14

tier. Standing my boss talking to people. And then when he gets eight o'clock,

41:16

nine o'clock, I don't know what I'm gonna

41:18

do. Okay. So moving

41:20

to soul to soul.

41:22

What is the greatest fear that you were able to overcome? And

41:25

what allowed you to overcome

41:27

it? Wow. That's

41:29

a good question.

41:32

probably gang violence. How

41:34

do you find refuge

41:36

on death row?

41:40

I really

41:40

sitting now and

41:43

listening to myself and

41:45

not overthinking

41:47

myself. I love what

41:49

you said earlier by losing your mind. You didn't lose your mind.

41:51

You lose your mind in order not to lose

41:53

your mind. Oh, yeah.

41:56

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, people say, you know, I I say the

41:58

people, you know, I think I'm crazy

41:59

because I ain't

42:02

crazy. And That's

42:03

that's the real that's

42:06

acknowledging what these places do to

42:08

people, number one. And number two,

42:10

I think it it it

42:12

validates your human worth.

42:14

And I take both of those to

42:16

heart, but I

42:18

also know that

42:18

I don't wanna leave here and not realize that

42:21

there's that beach, not be

42:23

able to see that beach. that's

42:25

the most scariest thing to me in the world to be

42:28

out and be, you

42:30

know, so

42:32

mentally disabled to

42:33

see that I'm out. That's

42:34

the most scariest thing I

42:36

live with every single day. And meditation

42:38

doesn't do a lot of help with that.

42:42

I'm trying to understand help me understand. What what is the scariest

42:45

thing? It's to get out

42:47

of prison and not realize

42:50

that amount. you know,

42:52

to have become so mentally

42:55

disabled

42:57

that I

42:58

can walk right there on the beach and not even see it.

43:00

Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna

43:02

get out like that to put

43:04

all these

43:05

years into something and

43:08

whether, you know, you're

43:09

fighting for your freedom, but your freedom is

43:11

not seen. You know, your never be able

43:13

to see it. that

43:15

is real scary to me. And I can do what what's

43:17

so scary about that is that I've been able to

43:20

witness that in other people. Because

43:22

you see that people on the outside are still

43:24

living in in their own

43:26

prison and suffering. All

43:27

the time. That's

43:29

why I like me better than

43:31

I like anything else. I mean, I have my

43:33

my trips, but there's some

43:35

people got some real serious issues out

43:37

there, you know. Mhmm. And I would

43:39

not want them.

43:42

Right. there's no way to wear all I would want to. Let me ask

43:44

you this. What was your greatest awakening?

43:46

What was your greatest awakening?

43:49

My greatest awakening. My

43:52

greatest awakening would probably be

43:54

that I matter that I can

43:56

make a difference -- Mhmm. -- that

43:59

I have something to say. and

44:01

there was power in that because I was on

44:03

death row, kids

44:06

don't utility you

44:08

know, you tell some juvenile kids, you know, you're on death row and they

44:11

their eyes just light up. And if you tell

44:13

them that you don't

44:13

have to tell anything to get on

44:16

death row, they light up

44:18

even brighter. brighter in

44:20

the sense that you now have their attention is

44:22

what you're saying. You get their attention. What you're

44:24

saying? I'm in Yeah. I have their attention.

44:26

Yes.

44:27

What what's your greatest suffering and what wisdom did you

44:29

gain from it? It's

44:31

probably that tattoo I

44:32

was talking to you about.

44:36

knowing that I had put this on me at

44:38

the age of twelve and

44:41

to see that

44:44

now It's

44:45

just wow.

44:47

You know? It

44:49

isn't an awakening. It it it

44:52

it's it is how can you

44:54

not be awake when you see that? It

44:56

is a it is a it is a

44:58

reflection on so many people coming

45:00

into the system too. If

45:02

this doesn't if this is

45:04

not credentials to show

45:06

someone, I don't know what it is. And

45:08

whenever

45:08

I'm writing to somebody, I always

45:10

say that. I wanna know what's your most

45:12

humbling experience. What was the thing or

45:14

event? What's your most humbling experience?

45:16

I would I would imagine that

45:19

there is nothing more humbling than death row, but I would like

45:21

for you to give me a specific example of

45:23

the thing or event that made

45:25

you to take stock

45:27

of yourself as a human being in a

45:30

in relationship to what

45:32

you can and cannot do?

45:34

I think

45:35

I think if if is

45:37

being able to reach

45:40

out to

45:40

move these bar like my teachers

45:42

and say, just don't beat the

45:44

bars down, or time them, just move them out the way.

45:46

Yeah. Then I know how to move

45:48

them out the way, and and they able to

45:51

reach out. That's humbling to

45:53

me. Does it also humbling to know that now your

45:55

book is gonna be read by many people

45:57

who wouldn't have you -- That's true. -- you

45:59

know, you wrote this book. in

46:01

two thousand nine. And now here in twenty

46:04

twenty two, people are being

46:06

exposed. roaded. That's a trip. Right? Yeah.

46:08

That's a trip. That's

46:10

a trip. And you know, it's it's a trip. I I can't

46:12

when we return

46:13

my corridors, I mean,

46:15

come on. Really? I mean,

46:17

how do you get to this one?

46:19

And also think a lot about, you know, how

46:21

this book can go into more

46:24

into black communities, you know -- Yeah. -- that never was able to

46:26

do. Yeah. I I

46:28

see that, you know. And now I see

46:30

this book being able to I can use

46:32

over a

46:34

stamp. to get into prisons that it was never allowed to get

46:36

into prisons. You know, a lot of people said as

46:38

well, death row, a top

46:40

killer. We're not in that that book

46:44

in here. you know. Yeah. So yeah.

46:46

It it is

46:47

a trip. It's

46:49

hard to believe. you know,

46:51

and no one I know believes it either.

46:53

Do you, in spite of

46:56

being on death row and

46:58

having the life there that

47:00

you have, Have you ever experienced moments of

47:02

true grace? Are there

47:04

moments where you

47:06

feel like some sense

47:08

of or grace or

47:10

relief shows up.

47:12

Yeah. I

47:12

think I think that's more like

47:16

being me. Yeah. find you acknowledging who I

47:18

was. Yeah. I kinda feel

47:20

that right there. And

47:22

what is your greatest

47:24

hope from the book going out into the world and and from this

47:27

conversation, Jarvis. Oh,

47:29

that

47:29

it reaches people like

47:31

you said, or it reaches more people than it

47:34

ever could, that kids

47:36

will be able to reach

47:37

this book and read this

47:39

book. that they can be in libraries. And

47:42

yeah. That that's

47:42

this this is sort of like

47:44

my second win, you know. Well,

47:47

I wanna thank you for this conversation. It's been my great

47:49

privilege honor. Joy to

47:52

finally connect

47:54

with you. Finally. Finally.

47:56

Finally. March. Alright. Thank you. Alright.

47:58

We'll talk to you in the future.

48:00

Okay. Bye, Jarvis.

48:02

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've

48:03

been listening to Super Bowl

48:06

Conversations, The podcast. You can

48:08

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48:10

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48:17

review this podcast. Join me

48:20

next week for another super soul

48:22

conversation.

48:22

Thank you for listening.

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