0:00

Gentlemen, my guest today is a man who

0:02

spent 15 years behind bars trying to figure

0:04

out how to get out of the

0:06

destructive patterns and habits he had acquired

0:08

growing up with violence and gangs and

0:11

drugs. And although not

0:13

all of us have been convicted and segregated

0:15

from society, I think that each

0:17

and every one of us can relate with what

0:19

it takes to overcome adversity and setback.

0:22

He goes by the name of Che and

0:24

today we talk about emotional control, learning

0:27

to forgive yourself for past wrongdoings. In

0:29

what ways prison and in some ways

0:32

the military can simplify life and make

0:34

things easier, harnessing your

0:36

desires for healthy outlets and healthy

0:38

outcomes, the perversion of

0:40

modern masculinity and overcoming

0:42

the path of no purpose. You're

0:45

a man of action. You live life to

0:48

the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly charge

0:50

your own path. When life knocks you down,

0:52

you get back up one more time. You

0:55

are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged,

0:58

resilient, strong. This

1:01

is your life. This is who you are. This

1:03

is who you will become at the end of the day.

1:06

And after all is said and done, you can

1:08

call yourself a man. Men what is going on

1:10

today? Welcome to the Order of Man podcast and

1:12

movement. If you don't know me, my name is

1:15

Ryan Mickler. I founded this

1:17

movement in March of 2015. So

1:19

we're knocking on nine years right now. And

1:22

I'm very excited that we continue to

1:24

grow. We continue to see our work

1:26

expand and we continue to see those

1:28

of us who are listening and applying

1:30

the information from our guests and the

1:33

resources we have are improving themselves. They're

1:35

improving their families, their communities, their businesses,

1:37

their neighborhoods and society as a whole.

1:39

And that is my goal. If you

1:42

don't know, my goal is to

1:44

reclaim and restore masculinity to its rightful

1:46

place where it's respected and cherished and

1:48

valued and honored and making

1:50

ourselves capable of leading

1:52

the way that our people need us to lead.

1:55

So I mean, glad you're here. I'm glad you're

1:57

banded with us in this mission to reclaim and

1:59

restore masculinity. and I

2:01

hope you enjoy this podcast. Guys before I

2:03

get to my guest today, I do want

2:05

to let you know that if we're speaking

2:08

about other good people doing good things, I

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3:06

of Man podcast. Again montanaknifecompany.com use

3:09

the code orderofman. Alright,

3:11

let me introduce to my guest. He goes by

3:14

the name of Che. He's the founder of

3:16

the No Spoon podcast and also the author

3:18

of his newest book, The Freedom Doctrine which

3:21

helps men confront and deal with demons

3:23

and depression, anxiety, addiction,

3:26

degeneracy, mental illness, so many things

3:28

a lot of us have dealt

3:30

with. He spent 15 years

3:32

in prison and through his sentence

3:34

spent that time working on

3:36

himself, improving his mindset, developing

3:39

the skills to succeed in a world that

3:41

is completely different than behind bars. He goes

3:43

into that a bit in this conversation but

3:46

he's doing great work on himself and

3:48

also helping young men in his community to

3:50

take a different path than he

3:53

has. Enjoy this one guys. Che,

3:57

what's up brother? Thanks for joining me on the podcast today. What's

4:00

up, Brian? Thanks for having me, man. Great to be here. Yeah,

4:03

I know a little bit about your story with

4:05

drugs and crime and gangs and, you

4:07

know, a 15-year imprisonment. And man,

4:09

I thought it was really important

4:12

that we have this discussion because I know how

4:14

many men are struggling with some

4:16

of the same activities or maybe

4:19

something different, but they're past and they're finding

4:21

it really difficult to overcome and remain

4:24

trapped in the past. But it seems to me that

4:26

you've done a phenomenal job. Of

4:28

course, I don't know your full story, but

4:30

a phenomenal job overcoming your past life and

4:32

creating something entirely different moving forward. Well,

4:35

I'm trying. That's the whole point. You know what

4:38

I mean? I'm trying to make it happen. I

4:40

think it's just you take it one day at

4:42

a time. And the most important thing is you

4:44

stop listening to the noise. That's it. Just stop

4:46

listening to the outside noise. What

4:49

was that noise for you? I mean, we'll

4:51

get into your story of imprisonment, but when

4:53

you talk about the noise, is that

4:55

mental baggage? Is that noise from other

4:57

people? Like how did that manifest for

5:00

you? Well,

5:02

for me, I think it was more internal.

5:05

Internal being in the sense of not being

5:08

able to overcome certain things and

5:10

situations that I found myself in.

5:14

A lot of my issues started when, you know, things

5:16

didn't go the way that I thought they would go.

5:18

I was into sports. I was playing football. I thought

5:21

I was going to get scholarships from

5:23

all over the country and it didn't work out

5:25

that way. And then when that happened, you

5:27

know, my life lost meaning. It lost purpose.

5:30

And so when that happens, it's so easy

5:32

to gravitate towards other people who don't have

5:34

a purpose. And so we

5:36

found a common purpose in, you

5:38

know, negativity and criminal activity and

5:41

hanging out doing nothing and finding

5:43

trouble to get into. And

5:46

so, you know, that was what

5:48

that was my thing, internal thing. I think

5:50

now, you know, we're up against, you know,

5:52

so much as far as an agenda to

5:55

keep us, especially men. I

5:57

believe men are very, very much being attacked in

5:59

that. sense and the noise also

6:02

now is you

6:35

say, you know, they that there's an

6:37

agenda, who do you think is leading

6:39

that agenda? What do you think that agenda is? I mean,

6:41

I think in part, I agree. And I've

6:44

really spent a lot of time thinking about is there,

6:46

is there an actual coordinated agenda

6:50

to undermine masculinity? And

6:53

I believe there is. And I think it's coming from

6:55

a few institutions, government,

6:57

the medical fields

7:00

and academia. So I'm

7:02

curious what you think about that and where it

7:04

might be coming from, from your perspective. And

7:06

why even? Well, you hit

7:09

it all three on the head. I mean, that's exactly where

7:11

it's coming from. And

7:13

I also think entertainment as well, if you're

7:15

going to throw another another institution in there,

7:17

I think the entertainment is I think they're

7:19

vital to this. I

7:22

think what they're trying to I so

7:24

when I talk to people about this agenda, and people

7:26

say, well, you know, why, why would

7:28

men be targeted? You know, is it

7:30

because they're strong? Because we can grow

7:33

a beard? Is it because of our

7:35

genitalia or any? And I don't

7:37

think it's any of those things. I think it's the way that

7:39

we process and the way that we think I think if you're

7:41

trying to manipulate a person, and

7:43

just an individual person, you have to

7:45

get them to think on an emotional

7:47

level. And so men,

7:49

if you look at the two, you know,

7:52

male and female, we are different, you know,

7:55

despite what the world may tell you, we

7:57

are different, we both we bring two different.

8:01

sets the qualities to the table. And so a

8:03

lot of those things start in the mind and

8:05

how we process and how we think. And men

8:07

are more logical thinkers. We think logically and that's

8:09

what we bring. If we're raising a family, my

8:12

wife is going to provide the emotional nourishment

8:14

that the child needs, and I'm going to

8:16

provide the logical reasoning that the child needs.

8:18

Well, the logical reasoning is the most important

8:21

thing. And this is why, you know, if

8:23

we get biblical, God told

8:25

us that man is the head of the household

8:27

because we can bring both things together. But at

8:29

the end of the day, logic is always going

8:31

to win. I don't care if you feel like

8:33

you can fly, when you get on that third

8:35

story building and you jump, logic wins. Your

8:38

subjective feelings doesn't matter. And I think what

8:40

happens is that man is being

8:42

attacked because they want people to be more

8:44

emotional. And the more emotional that you are,

8:47

the more easily you are to manipulate because

8:49

these are subjective feelings. And so

8:51

this is what's going on today as we've

8:54

seen a coordinated effort by all those institutions

8:56

that you mentioned, to in order to manipulate

8:58

and to take away the logical reasoning from

9:00

the next generation. And if you look at

9:03

the generations, look at

9:05

this next generation that's coming up, they're

9:07

very emotional, they're very illogical. And

9:09

so when you're very illogical and very emotional,

9:11

we can manipulate you, we can put any

9:13

type of doctrine that we want to put

9:15

out there and people are going to accept

9:17

it because there's no solid foundation. And I think

9:19

that's, if we're going to get to the root

9:22

of the whole thing and the core of it,

9:24

I think that's what the attack

9:26

on masculinity is based on. Yeah,

9:28

I think it's certainly a control

9:31

play. So you're

9:33

talking about the emotional control

9:37

of men in particular. I

9:40

also think that there's a real

9:42

push to normalize degeneracy. You

9:45

look, for example, you said the entertainment industry,

9:48

look at the over-sexualization of the entertainment industry

9:50

and this is nothing new. I mean, this

9:52

is going on, has been going on as

9:54

long as I think humans have probably roamed

9:57

the earth, but because men

9:59

are attracted. to that, that

10:02

the opposite sex, right? But you look at that,

10:04

you look at transgenderism, you look at multiple

10:08

genders, you look at furries in the

10:10

classroom and putting, you know,

10:13

dog pads or grass in

10:15

the classroom so kids can

10:17

poop there. It's ridiculous. And

10:19

it's real. And it's becoming normalized

10:22

so much so that when you see this

10:24

type of stuff, this filth and degeneracy, most

10:26

people don't even bat an eye. Well,

10:29

I mean, because it demoralizes you, you know

10:32

what I mean? And we know that there's,

10:34

there's no substance in degeneracy. There's no substance.

10:36

I mean, I know

10:38

I can speak to myself personally, I've been on

10:41

a path of no purpose and nothing, right? So

10:43

I've been on a path where I

10:45

woke up in the morning, had nothing to

10:47

do other than to, you know, roll

10:49

a blunt, smoke weed, find

10:51

something to drink, I'd be drinking by 10

10:53

o'clock in the morning. I'm already, I'm already

10:55

there. You know what I'm saying? I'm finding it

10:58

now. It's just trouble. It's just calling

11:00

different girls up. Hey, what are you doing today?

11:02

And so all I'm all

11:04

I'm focused on is degeneracy. And

11:06

there's nothing there. There's no, at the end

11:08

of the day, it doesn't fulfill you. But

11:11

when I'm waking up at five o'clock in

11:13

the morning, I'm praying, I'm

11:15

reading, I'm studying, I'm going to

11:17

work out, I'm going to work,

11:19

I'm progressive in the sense of

11:21

trying to make progress in my

11:23

life. There's a lot of fulfillment

11:25

there. So if

11:28

we're just putting on degeneracy, and you

11:31

get demoralized, you start to lose hope,

11:33

there's nothing, there's nothing at the end

11:35

of it. And when you can see

11:38

yourself actually building things, building companies, building

11:40

businesses, building relationships, those type

11:42

of things, building a family, those things bring real

11:44

fulfillment. And I think that, you

11:46

know, we talk about the agenda and the

11:48

agenda is to push people into this demoralization

11:50

process. And so that's one of the things

11:53

I think is the most leading cause of

11:55

the mental health crisis that we see going

11:57

on today, is that people don't feel like

11:59

there's Answer to anything because the

12:01

answers that they're seeking don't provide

12:04

any type of substance So yeah, there's

12:06

a big push of degeneracy the

12:08

sexualization. There's nothing there. We've all been there

12:10

You know what? I mean? We've all been

12:12

to the point where we're looking for you

12:15

know in the next woman in the next drink

12:17

in the next high in The next whatever

12:19

it is that's next for you real

12:22

real You know

12:24

substance comes from actually doing something

12:26

and building things and I think that they're trying to

12:28

keep us from that Yeah, well

12:31

tell me a little bit about your story with

12:33

regards to how you found yourself incarcerated because if

12:35

I understand correctly You did 15 years in The

12:40

California state penitentiary system is that is that

12:42

right? Yeah, that's correct. Yes 15

12:44

So from the age of 20 to 35. Yeah, 20

12:47

to and how old are you now? I'm

12:49

40 40 so you so you've been

12:51

out of prison for five years and you made a big shift

12:54

in that five years But I imagine there was a lot going

12:56

on in prison to help you as well But

12:58

let's back up and let's talk about how you found

13:01

yourself in that position of what led to that incarceration Um,

13:05

like I said, I was you know, I grew up

13:07

in a two-parent household I grew up You

13:10

know with Christian parents we went to church

13:12

We were you know, you weren't allowed to

13:14

cuss you weren't allowed to watch certain movies

13:16

or listen to certain music growing up you

13:19

know, we were very disciplined in that sense,

13:21

but um, Yeah,

13:23

I grew up playing sports and sports was a

13:25

big part of my life and you know once

13:27

I started playing football That's all I wanted to

13:29

do and I

13:32

had a vision that was my vision I was gonna play

13:34

football and that's where I was gonna go with with my

13:36

life and When it didn't

13:38

turn out the way that I wanted it to go and I

13:41

didn't get I got a few offers But I didn't get

13:43

offers where I wanted. I thought I was I

13:45

thought I could have done better I got a lot of

13:47

do a couple years in junior college and then you know,

13:49

we'll see where you're at but You

13:52

know that you do the schooling or our performance

13:54

on the field or what why

13:56

those type offers? versus There

14:00

you go. Yeah, a little of both.

14:03

I think that they wanted to see how I'll

14:05

perform at the next level before they gave me

14:07

a scholarship. I played

14:09

linebacker. I'm about 5'10", 5'11",

14:12

and so 5'10", 5'11", you don't really get, you

14:15

know, looked at a linebacker like that. Right.

14:18

And then I made the transition to defensive back

14:20

in junior college, but by that time, I

14:23

was already like, I had one foot

14:25

in the streets and one foot out, you know what I mean? I

14:28

was kind of leaning towards that way. I didn't take it as

14:30

serious as I should have. And this is the part like that.

14:32

This is what I'm saying. Like

14:35

I was faced with an adversity. I was faced

14:37

with an unexpected obstacle and those things happen all

14:39

the time. That's life, right? And

14:42

so instead of responding to it and

14:45

going the hard route and saying, okay, I'm going to,

14:47

it didn't go the way that I wanted it to go,

14:49

but it's still not over. And all I

14:52

got to do is keep putting in working harder. I

14:55

decided I got really depressed. I

14:57

got really started to lose my focus and,

14:59

you know, and just started getting

15:01

into other things and then getting around people. And I

15:03

was like, I got to talk about in my book,

15:05

you know, you're growing up in LA. There's

15:10

two people that are popular in schools, the athletes and

15:12

the gang members, especially growing up in the

15:14

90s. And so most sometimes are one

15:16

in the same. A lot of times we know each

15:19

other. And I knew a lot of gang members growing

15:21

up and I, you know, so

15:23

it was easy to go over there. I

15:26

gravitate to them and they kind of

15:28

offer something the same that I was looking for, which

15:31

was another place where I can be

15:33

somebody. You know what I mean? And I

15:35

learned how to do that in that environment. And

15:38

that didn't, that environment didn't last long because

15:40

the law caught up to me. And so

15:42

I ended up getting involved in a shooting

15:44

case that got me 17 years, but I ended up doing

15:47

15 off of it. And so

15:49

that's where I ended up in prison. And

15:51

so a lot of times when I talk to

15:53

people, especially men going through the

15:55

same things, I always say, you got to recognize

15:58

these patterns. And so now I recognize. Adversity

16:00

is a given. Struggle is a given. Things aren't going to

16:02

go the way that you want them to go. So that's

16:04

how I ended up in prison. And

16:06

then prison was, it was

16:10

an interesting ride in and of itself. I went through a lot

16:12

of different changes in there. From

16:14

personal philosophy, religiously, at one

16:17

point I was an atheist. I was knee deep in Marxism. I'm

16:21

going to say knee deep. I was neck

16:23

deep in Marxism. I thought that that

16:25

was the way to go. I was really, I gravitated

16:27

to that. Because

16:31

it was militant, because it was anti-establishment,

16:34

because it was, you know, everything

16:36

that I wanted to be. And

16:38

most importantly, it gave

16:40

me something else to point the finger

16:42

at. You know what I mean? When

16:47

you said you were in a shooting altercation or

16:50

incident, was that like a rival gang thing? Or

16:52

was that attempted burglary? What were the

16:54

details of that? It

16:57

was a gang related. And

16:59

I'm assuming, what, you shot somebody? Is that

17:01

what happened? I was involved. I wasn't the

17:03

actual shooting. God, okay. So

17:06

I was there, yeah. And you know, the way they do

17:08

it is they don't look at it like, well,

17:10

that person did this. They look at it like,

17:12

you were all involved. You were all there. You

17:15

know, it doesn't matter if it was ten of us

17:17

and nobody knew about it. The way they look at

17:19

it is if you, if they, and they don't even

17:21

have to prove that you were an actual gang member.

17:24

They just have to show correlation or relation. Like,

17:27

you're hanging around this person. He's a known gang

17:29

member. Therefore, you

17:31

are. And you did this. And you were all

17:33

involved. It's just, you know, we don't understand

17:36

these things or how you're doing this stupid stuff. You know

17:38

what I mean? But they got,

17:40

they got sets of laws for you, you know? So

17:44

did somebody die in that incident then? No, it

17:47

was, it was, they survived. Yeah. Okay. I

17:50

was curious if that's something that you

17:52

wrestle with, you know, I, I, I've never

17:54

been in that situation. I don't know how many

17:56

people who have other than, you know, military service.

18:00

But I wonder what the weight

18:02

of something like that is moving

18:04

forward and how an individual progresses

18:06

past that. You know, even though

18:08

they're a new person, there's still the history that they might latch

18:11

onto and hold onto for a long period of time.

18:14

Of course. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's

18:19

not an easy thing to deal with. You know what

18:21

I'm saying? You have to deal with the fact that

18:23

somebody had their life completely altered based

18:25

on the actions of yourself and the people

18:27

that you were around. I

18:30

think that the best thing that

18:32

I can do now, I can't change what happened.

18:36

I'm sorry that it happened. I'm

18:38

truly remorseful for what happened. But

18:41

the best thing that I can do is

18:44

be of service now, today. You know what

18:46

I mean? And so I think

18:49

the one thing that you have to do is you

18:51

have to forgive yourself. You can't keep

18:54

beating yourself up over things that you can't

18:56

control. It's in the past, I

18:58

think that we've all done things that we regret,

19:00

so to speak. But you have to

19:02

be able to forgive yourself and move forward

19:05

because you're no good when you

19:07

just constantly living in

19:09

that remorse

19:12

and regret. You can be remorseful, but you

19:14

have to show your life and prove your life

19:17

through the service that you're doing now. And that

19:19

starts with first forgiving yourself. So that took a

19:21

long time. You know what I mean? That took

19:23

a long time. And that's why I said I

19:25

gravitated to the audiology that allowed me to point

19:28

the finger at somebody else so that then I

19:30

can say, well, I don't really need to be

19:32

sorry. It's not my fault. It's

19:34

capitalism's fault. I don't know how that

19:36

comes into play, but we play these

19:38

mental gymnastics to try to say things.

19:40

It's my environment's fault. It's my my

19:42

coach's fault, my mom and dad's fault.

19:45

You're looking for everybody else because the

19:47

reality is that you have to

19:49

take accountability for what you did. And that hurts. You

19:51

know what I mean? It hurts to do that. But

19:54

once you can get past that, then your

19:56

life is, you know, your life is

19:59

free. And that's why I took. You know, I

20:01

named the book the freedom doctrine because real freedom

20:03

comes from taking accountability for yourself, right?

20:06

Yeah, and that's the hardest thing to do

20:08

and sometimes people think with regards to accountability or

20:10

responsibility that it adds and it's burdensome in

20:12

their life And to a degree yeah understandable you

20:14

have responsibilities that you have to take care

20:16

of But it's also very

20:19

liberating in other ways I

20:21

am curious how You know

20:23

you did 15 years and Without

20:25

having the numbers and the data in front of me It

20:28

at least anecdotally or intuitively. I believe

20:30

that most people that go into a

20:33

situation like that Don't

20:35

end up changing for the better.

20:37

It just reinforces their poor habits

20:39

and their poor belief system If

20:43

that's true, you can tell me if it's not but if that's true,

20:45

how do you in 15 years

20:47

navigate that environment? And

20:50

come out in a more healthy Productive

20:53

mindset versus unhealthy destructive mindset,

20:55

which I imagine is where

20:57

most people leave the

20:59

prison system in um

21:03

So, you know, they actually say that the

21:05

more time that you do the less

21:08

likely you are to re-offend most

21:11

guys most guys that do like you

21:13

have and that's basically because you get

21:15

tired and I think it's also because As

21:17

we get older we get less aggressive

21:19

you get less you start to you know, and it

21:22

does it weighs down on you, bro Like it's really

21:24

hard to you know, you start to look at

21:26

it and say do I really want to go through

21:28

all that again? I mean, yes,

21:30

the the whole the politics the

21:34

It's it's really really, you know Weighs

21:36

down on people and I think what happens is a lot

21:38

of times people get tired They just get tired they get

21:40

tired of having to deal with the same thing Over

21:43

and over and the same You know,

21:45

most of the things that we impose upon ourselves

21:47

in there. And so, you

21:49

know, I think um for me though You

21:52

know, I really had a I really had the mindset

21:54

of I'm not going to

21:56

I'm not i'm going to use my time wisely. I

21:58

used to always tell myself The my

22:00

biggest fear was to be home to get it

22:03

out and to wish I was back in and

22:05

what I meant by that is Wish

22:07

I still had the time and that's and so it

22:09

made me not want to waste my time Like

22:13

I said, I studied a lot of different things

22:15

some of the most of it I don't agree

22:17

with now, but I feel like it was part

22:19

of the purpose You know what I mean? It led

22:21

me to where I'm at So I don't regret any

22:23

of the things that I was studying and learning and

22:26

even propagated at palms I just I see that as

22:28

part of the it was part of the process I

22:30

had to go through but um, yeah

22:32

I mean you have to really

22:34

you know learn to detach yourself from

22:36

that place prison is a different world

22:38

Completely different world. There's a whole

22:41

different set of rules. There's a whole different,

22:43

you know Mindset that goes into

22:45

being there and you have to detach from it,

22:47

you know I

22:49

don't I don't like to make this comparison But

22:52

you said you served in the military and I

22:54

could imagine that there's a different set of rules

22:56

There's a different mindset that has to take place

22:58

in order to be a soldier and

23:01

it's kind of similar to that I don't want to compare

23:03

the two because I feel like you know two

23:06

totally different Reasons for being there.

23:08

But what I'm saying is it's

23:10

it's it's not like civilian life. You know what

23:13

I mean? It's not like out here. It's completely

23:15

different. So you have to learn to detach from

23:17

that you have to kind of When

23:20

you're there say this is how I'm doing. This

23:22

is what I'm doing while I'm here And

23:25

then once you step out of there, you have to leave it behind What

23:28

what was that transition like I'm actually

23:30

curious about you said your your parents

23:33

you grew up in a two-parent household Sounds like

23:35

they were good Christians What

23:37

what is that process like is you're going through

23:40

your sentencing you're going through a 15 year prison

23:42

sentence, you know Are you still communicating with your

23:44

parents and then what is that

23:46

relationship like now with them? Yeah,

23:49

I communicated with them all the way through they're the

23:52

only two that really didn't never left my side You

23:54

know what I mean? I'm not gonna say the only

23:56

but who are the only two They

23:59

were there through it all They've seen it all.

24:02

It was difficult. It was difficult for

24:05

them to have to see that. I'm their first child.

24:07

I'm their only boy. You know what I

24:09

mean? To see me have

24:12

to go through that, it weighed a lot on

24:14

my family. I

24:17

didn't really understand how much it

24:19

weighed on them until I came home. I

24:23

remember there was a

24:25

... I was probably home for a few

24:27

weeks at this time. When

24:31

I got arrested, they were interested in the

24:34

car. It

24:39

was my mom's car. They

24:41

had pulled me over. I

24:45

was already locked up. They

24:47

came and they raided the house,

24:49

my mom's house. Your parents' house? Yeah,

24:51

that's the address. Were you living there at the time?

24:55

I was, yeah. I was living there, here and there. I

24:58

was running around. That

25:00

was the address that they had. I

25:05

remember we were going to ... I was

25:07

with my sister and we were going to get some

25:10

ice cream or something like that. She

25:15

pointed to an apartment building

25:17

that we passed by. She

25:19

says, do you see that right there? I said, yeah. She

25:21

said it kind of casually. She

25:23

said that's where they pulled me and mama over.

25:26

Cops did. At

25:29

that moment, it kind of

25:32

hit me. She

25:34

was past it, obviously. My

25:36

parents had been past it. I didn't ever ...

25:38

Because, like I said, jail, I

25:40

was going through jail. I was going to court. Then

25:42

I had to go to prison. The

25:46

best thing you can do when you're in

25:48

that situation is you don't live your life

25:50

on the outside mentally.

25:54

That means you really can't put a whole lot

25:56

of time and energy into worrying about what's

25:58

going on outside with your family. families going

26:00

through because there's so much going

26:03

on inside that you have to focus

26:05

on what's going on here because that's what's real. You

26:07

can't do anything about what they're going. If they can't

26:09

pay the rent, what are you going to do? You

26:11

know what I mean? Except worry yourself and then

26:13

put yourself in a bad situation of where you're

26:16

at. So I never had the opportunity to really

26:18

process all that until that moment and I remember

26:20

like it kind of hit me

26:22

like, wow, I really put them through a whole lot.

26:25

You know what I mean?

26:27

It's hard and it's difficult,

26:29

but nowadays, you know,

26:32

my relationship with my mom and dad has never

26:34

been better. We're

26:36

really close. They've really been there

26:38

the whole way and there's

26:41

nothing better than for them to see, you

26:44

know, me make a positive change

26:47

and really doing the things that they've always

26:49

wanted me to do anyways. Man,

26:53

let me step away from the conversation very briefly.

26:55

Have you ever wanted to do more but

26:57

you don't know where to start or have you ever

26:59

wondered or wanted to band

27:01

with other high quality men but really

27:03

don't quite know how to do that?

27:06

Now, many of you are familiar with our exclusive

27:08

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27:10

you about another resource that is available and

27:12

it's only available to two of you.

27:15

It's our three and a half day immersive

27:18

experience in Southern Utah. It's called the Uprising

27:20

and it's going to be held May 2nd

27:22

through May 5th, 2024. Now

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look, we only have two spots left, so this is

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27:31

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28:05

short video and get registered at

28:07

order of man.com/uprising. That's order of

28:09

man.com/uprising. I hope to see you

28:11

there. Yeah,

28:14

I imagine they're pretty proud of what

28:17

you've gone through and how you've overcome it and where you

28:19

are right now. When you came

28:21

home, I imagine what

28:24

you probably live with them for a period of

28:26

time, maybe I don't know, I don't want to put words in

28:28

your mouth. Did you then did

28:30

you go out and look for a job? Like what

28:32

was that process of like of transitioning back into ordinary

28:35

everyday civilian life? So

28:38

yeah, I lived with them for about a year. I met

28:41

my, my she's now my

28:43

wife, but I met her within like four

28:46

months of coming home. Really? So

28:48

yeah, yeah, we met we met kind

28:50

of quickly,

28:53

she actually lived around the corner from us. And

28:55

so what did she think about your history? You

28:58

know, she's all right with it. You know, I

29:00

actually I remember like the first, like,

29:02

I think we had been seeing each other for like a week

29:04

or two. And I was more insecure

29:08

with the fact that I live with my mom and dad, I was 35

29:11

years old. So I was kind of like I didn't you

29:13

know what I mean? I kind of felt like at

29:15

35, you should be established and you should have things going

29:17

on. Why do you still live with your mom and dad?

29:19

So I really wanted to tell her so that she would

29:22

understand and not look at me like some bum or something

29:24

like that. So

29:26

I remember telling her I mean, she was cool with it. She

29:28

said, Okay, well, that's fine. You know what I mean? That it

29:30

is what it is. That's not as long as you're not on

29:32

that page anymore. And

29:35

so, you know, she's really

29:37

the she's really what keeps you

29:39

know, she keeps she keeps me in line, not to

29:41

say that I have, I need to

29:43

be kept in line. But she really does. I

29:45

mean, she really grounded me. She's really helped

29:48

me to transition back like you talked about transitioning

29:50

back to civilian life, she helped me to be

29:53

normal. I guess you can say you know what I

29:55

mean? Like, so many things that you

29:57

just don't think of like, I just give you example,

29:59

like celebrate birthdays. Like I had forgot about birthdays. Like

30:01

I didn't really even care about them. And now she's like,

30:03

I remember the first birthday we were together, she's like, what

30:05

are we going to do? And I was like, I don't

30:08

know, nothing. And she was

30:10

like, no, we got to do something. We got to do this.

30:12

You know what I mean? And so, and

30:14

she's, she's really like helped me to, you know,

30:17

come out because it is, it is, it is different. You

30:19

know what I mean? It's different. It's different when you get

30:21

out here. It's different. The people

30:23

are different. It's just, it's a

30:25

whole different mindset. And, and, one

30:28

thing I noticed, the biggest thing is,

30:30

and it's interesting, is prison

30:32

is easy because there's rules. And

30:35

you know that when you step outside of these rules, there's going

30:37

to be consequences. And a lot of those rules are kind of,

30:39

are, I'm not going to say petty, but

30:42

they are in the sense of like, you

30:44

know, out here, people aren't as courteous.

30:47

People aren't as, you know, they don't, they're

30:49

not as respectful out here. What

30:52

a well-consequenced to doing

30:54

that, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

30:57

So it takes a minute to kind of like adjust

30:59

and see how people are. And you're like, whoa,

31:03

you know what I mean? Like you just bumped into

31:05

me. You're not going to say anything. And they just

31:07

keep walking. And you're like, well, you, you're out here

31:09

now. It's over, you know what I mean? You have

31:11

to let that go. Sometimes that's just how people are.

31:13

So it does take, it takes a minute to adjust.

31:15

It takes a minute to kind of, you

31:17

know, step back and, you know, you'll deal

31:19

with bosses that you'll, that'll say things. And

31:21

you're like, wait, what? That's

31:24

not how this goes. But it is, you know

31:26

what I mean? And you have to just take it for what it

31:28

is. So, you know, I've had family, you know,

31:31

my wife has really helped me, you know,

31:34

and, and, and still a process to this

31:36

day, but I think I've, I've made, you

31:38

know, pretty significant strides. What,

31:41

what is, what was the process like of getting

31:43

a job? Was that difficult? Was that a challenge

31:45

or was it entry level stuff where, you know,

31:47

your incarceration wasn't as big of an issue as

31:49

it might be somewhere else? What was that like?

31:51

It's not difficult at all. You know,

31:54

that's one of the things I like to sit like when I work

31:56

with guys that got out of prison, that just got out of prison

31:58

and stuff like that. We have a reentry program. program that

32:00

I run out here in LA. And

32:04

I think that that's part of

32:07

the myth, right? That

32:10

they tell you it's gonna be really hard to get a

32:12

job. It's gonna be really hard to get a job. When

32:14

I came home, I went to a transitional

32:17

housing, which was like a halfway house that

32:19

I was there for about nine months I

32:21

was there. There's about

32:23

200 men in there. Everybody

32:26

got jobs if you wanted it. You

32:28

know what I mean? If you chose to get a job, it

32:30

was not hard to get a job. I got it, the first

32:32

job interview I went on, I got. You

32:34

know what I mean? Actually, the

32:36

first job interview I got, I went on. The only reason

32:39

I couldn't get the job was because of the restrictions of

32:41

the place I was living in, but they offered me the

32:43

job. All it was was at a, it

32:46

was interestingly enough, it was like in Santa

32:49

Monica at a Maserati dealership.

32:51

They wanted me to just watch, yeah, watch the cars,

32:54

make sure that they were detailed, the knife and everything

32:56

like that. But the thing is, they wanted me to

32:58

drive from there to Beverly Hills, and

33:00

I wasn't allowed to do that in the house

33:03

that I was living in. But I really went in there, and

33:07

I sat down in front of the guy, and he

33:09

looked at my resume and everything like that, and

33:11

I said, I'm just gonna tell you straight up,

33:13

this is the situation. And I just

33:15

told him, I just told him, I said, this is the situation,

33:17

this is where I was at, this is what was going on,

33:19

and I said, and

33:21

I just kinda just presented my case, you know what

33:24

I mean? And he said, he looked

33:26

at me and he said, man, I respect that. I respect

33:28

that you told me, I respect that you were man enough

33:30

to say what it is. He goes, as a matter of

33:32

fact, one of my best friends is in that situation, so

33:34

I don't look down on you for it. And he really

33:37

went out of his way to try to find me a

33:39

job, and I just couldn't because of the

33:41

restrictions. And he said, man, come back when you get

33:43

out of there, I'll have a job

33:45

for you. But I ended up doing other things, you know what

33:47

I mean? But I just felt like, you

33:49

know, it's not difficult. I think we put

33:51

the difficulty on ourselves by telling us how

33:54

it's gonna be so hard, and it's gonna

33:56

be, you're gonna, look, I

33:58

think that... You know, if you know

34:01

how to, you know how to speak and you know

34:03

how to present your case and you know how to

34:05

speak, articulate yourself and you really go in there with

34:07

an attitude of, you know, I'm here to

34:09

make a difference. I'm here to, I'm here to help

34:11

your company. I, people will

34:13

give you a shot. They really will. Right. Yeah,

34:15

that's interesting. I'm also interested because I've experienced

34:17

this as well, obviously in a different context,

34:19

but when I was in Iraq, I was

34:21

in Iraq in 2005 and 2006. It

34:25

was hard in a lot of ways, right? Just prison's got

34:27

to be hard in a lot of ways. Being in Iraq

34:30

was hard in a lot of ways, but also

34:32

there was a simplicity to it. You know, I

34:34

was told what time I need to

34:36

get up, what time I need to get into work, what

34:38

I'm going to wear every single day, where I'm going to

34:40

live. I don't have to pay any bills. I don't have

34:42

to worry about any responsibilities outside of my duties and my

34:44

job there. Like there's a lot of

34:46

simplicity in that. And I found that when I got

34:49

home, it was, it

34:51

was very strange because there was nobody telling me

34:53

what to do, when to do it, how to

34:55

do it or why. It was

34:57

just, Hey, you're whatever, do whatever

34:59

you want now. Oh, I

35:02

don't really know what to do with that. You know, and that,

35:04

that was kind of a challenge for me. The

35:06

other challenge that I had was seeing

35:09

that the petty bullshit

35:11

and nonsense that people were

35:13

wrapped up in because I knew

35:15

the gravity and the seriousness of the situation I was

35:18

in, did you experience anything like that? Oh,

35:21

definitely. Yeah. Definitely. The,

35:24

the day to day stuff, like you said, yeah, that,

35:26

that kind of it's, it's,

35:29

it weighs on you. I think that's the problem with a lot

35:31

of guys, why they like to go back, they go keep going

35:33

in and out of jail because they

35:36

know what they're going to expect in there. It's really

35:38

simple out here. Everything is on you. A lot of

35:40

people don't want that responsibility. Um,

35:43

I think the, uh, like you said, getting wrapped

35:45

up in the pettiness of things. You

35:48

don't really see, like for me, for example,

35:51

I really felt like a lot of people

35:53

are very ungrateful out here, right? They lack

35:55

gratitude for what they have. And

35:57

it's only because of the

35:59

situation. And so I've been in where you didn't

36:01

really have anything. And so now it's like, you

36:04

take it all in. I take it all in

36:06

now. You know what I mean? I take

36:08

it all in. Anytime I'm doing something, my

36:10

wife and I have been blessed enough to travel.

36:13

We went to Hawaii last year. That's the first time I

36:15

had ever been there. We spent a week there. And

36:17

actually we've been there twice since I've

36:20

been home. And it's like, I

36:22

try to, in those moments of sitting

36:24

on the beach, I try to sit there

36:26

and just remember what it was like to

36:28

not have that. And just to really be

36:30

appreciative of this, you know what I mean?

36:32

And this opportunity and not to waste it.

36:34

And then, I still talk to some

36:37

people that are still there that aren't coming home. And

36:39

they always kind of remind me,

36:42

like keep doing what you're doing, man. Keep

36:44

going hard because you

36:46

don't wanna be in this situation. You remember

36:48

what this was like. So I think that's,

36:51

it takes, yeah. And then it does kind of

36:53

irritate you with people. You're like, man, why are

36:55

you worried about this stuff, man? You have so

36:58

much opportunity that you're just sitting here wasting it. And

37:00

another thing, and I don't know, I'm

37:02

pretty sure you can relate to this. This is one of

37:04

the things that still is kind of hard to get over.

37:06

One of the things that I miss, as

37:11

funny as it might sound, that I miss is

37:13

the camaraderie that you have with other

37:15

people in there. You

37:17

know what I mean? Just the fact that we're

37:20

going through this situation. I had great relationships that

37:22

I made with men that were

37:24

going through this situation. We all kind

37:26

of felt a

37:28

connection based on that. And so

37:31

out here, it's hard to get, it's

37:33

hard to duplicate. And so sometimes

37:35

you miss it. You

37:38

miss that closeness, that bond

37:40

that you have with other men in

37:42

a way that you're not gonna get from other people out here.

37:45

Yeah, yeah, you have to, I

37:47

found that to be true. And even a lot

37:49

of the guys that I talk with, and I imagine a

37:52

lot of the guys that listen to you and resonate with

37:54

what you're saying, you

37:57

have to manufacture that. of

38:00

sports. You know, I grew up playing sports in high

38:02

school. I never went on to play college like you

38:04

did, but high school football was a big thing for

38:06

me. You know, you

38:08

get it there, you get it in the military. And

38:10

I imagine also, you know, gang

38:12

activity, prison system, that camaraderie, it's

38:14

not, it's not necessarily healthy, but

38:16

it's there, it's present. And

38:20

when you don't have those things,

38:22

which most grown men don't, then

38:25

you actually have to go out of your way

38:27

and exert yourself to create

38:29

a brotherhood around you. Yeah,

38:32

you know what, it's interesting that

38:34

you say that, especially when you talk about the gangs or

38:36

the prison and stuff like that, I really think that, you

38:40

know, when we talk about

38:42

this agenda and masculinity and stuff like that,

38:44

there are certain things that are innate in

38:47

men, right? We have an innate desire

38:49

and need to protect. We

38:52

have an innate desire and need to

38:54

provide, we have an innate desire and

38:56

need to be of, what's

38:59

the word I'm looking for, a asset

39:01

to your community, right? And

39:03

so, and that desire is

39:05

there, like we want to hunt, we want to go

39:07

out there, we want to get dirty, we want to,

39:09

if somebody is coming through our

39:12

house, we're going to defend it. If somebody is trying

39:14

to attack the kid down the street, we

39:16

want to defend that kid, we want to be able to fight

39:19

to a certain extent. If me and you were

39:21

out in public somewhere and, you know, I just

39:23

met you, but if we were together and a

39:25

group of guys came in to approach you, I

39:28

wouldn't just back down and be like, well, that's your

39:30

business. You know what I mean? My innate desire is

39:32

to step up and be with you and then we'll

39:35

figure it out later. You know, like

39:37

we have that within us, it's like a, it's a,

39:40

it's an instinct that we have. And so when

39:42

I look at like gangs, I don't

39:44

look at gangs as, as, as what

39:46

it is. Yes, it's not healthy. Yes,

39:49

we do, we do wrong, but I

39:51

think that what it is that, that these

39:53

men are looking for is that purpose. We're

39:56

looking for that purpose. We want to defend like we want to sit here and they say,

39:58

Hey, these guys, these guys, these guys, these guys, these guys, guys came down

40:00

and they shot up the house down the street, I

40:03

want to go out there and I want

40:05

to defend that. And so I think what

40:07

happens now is that we don't have the

40:09

proper channels. They're not giving these kids the

40:11

proper channels in which to channel that aggression

40:14

and channel that desire that they start to

40:16

pervert it. And so now you're seeing this

40:18

is what I call this is like perverted

40:20

masculinity. We don't know how

40:22

to use it, but it's there. We're

40:24

aggressive. We want to protect.

40:27

We want to hunt and we don't know how

40:29

to do it because we are not showing the

40:31

proper ways to do so. So we're doing it

40:34

in this warped kind of negative

40:36

way of doing it. You understand what

40:38

I'm saying? It's like, it's just kind

40:40

of it's a weird sense. And I

40:42

see that now and I see that

40:44

even when people try to reform like

40:46

gang members or criminals and stuff like

40:48

that, it's almost like they try to

40:50

take the fight out of them. And

40:53

I don't want to take the fight out of you.

40:55

I just want you to redirect it in a better

40:57

way. You know what I mean? In the healthy way,

41:00

in the way that God gave you to use it.

41:02

You're supposed to use it to defend your

41:04

family, to defend your community, to defend your

41:06

people. That's how you're supposed to use it.

41:09

But I don't, you know, this, if

41:12

you go through a lot of the rehabilitation programs

41:14

and in prison, it's almost like they

41:16

just want to, they want to beat you until

41:18

you're submissive. And I don't think

41:21

that's, I think you're just creating a whole other

41:23

monster there. Yeah, I think

41:25

that leads, because you talk a lot about this

41:27

mental health epidemic and I think feminizing men,

41:30

telling them to sit down, shut up, do what

41:32

you're told, color within the lines, don't take risks.

41:35

You know, don't be competitive, don't be

41:37

aggressive. That

41:39

just leads to, that doesn't lead to

41:42

less of that. That leads to repressed

41:44

and bottled up masculinity, which at some

41:46

point is going to seep through. And

41:48

in a lot of instances, it's

41:50

going to seep through in at a minimum unhealthy

41:52

ways and at a maximum dangerous and destructive ways.

41:55

This is why we see young

41:57

boys who don't have father figures or

41:59

male roles. models in their lives, what

42:01

do they do? They get medicated and then

42:03

they go shoot up schools. Like this is

42:05

not a difficult concept to wrap our heads

42:07

around. The real question is, what

42:10

do we do for our young men? Because we,

42:12

you're right. I believe you're right. We have to

42:15

have these institutions, but they're

42:17

being dismantled systematically as well or

42:19

infiltrated. One great example of that

42:22

is the Boy Scouts. Not been

42:24

for years, years and probably a decade at

42:26

this point, talking about the demise of the

42:28

Boy Scouting program. I

42:30

had people laugh at me, mock me, say, I

42:33

was stupid for saying this. And then not only a

42:35

few years later, now all of a

42:37

sudden, women want to be in Boy

42:39

Scouts and the systems that they had

42:41

in place and the codes and the

42:43

principles and the morals, like we don't

42:45

live abide by that anymore. Like that

42:47

is being systematically torn down. Churches, you

42:49

see church attendance dwindling for men. This

42:52

stuff is being eroded before our eyes and

42:54

it's not going to lead to anywhere healthy. Not

42:58

at all. I mean, that's exactly what's going

43:00

on. And it's creating, like you

43:02

said, this is the reason

43:04

why we see such a spike in

43:06

the mental health problem. I mean, it

43:09

serves the pharmaceutical companies. It really does

43:11

because we just go and they just

43:14

tell us to get medicated. You know

43:16

what I mean? And they know what they're

43:18

doing. They know that this is a recipe

43:20

for exactly what we're seeing happening. Like you

43:22

said, they get medicated,

43:25

then they go and they shoot up

43:27

schools. They become very effeminate. They become

43:29

useless to

43:32

a certain extent to where they're not even

43:34

providing any kind of benefit to their family.

43:36

They're not even being able to raise a

43:38

family. I mean, you can't

43:41

keep kicking men down and thinking

43:44

that it's going to be a good thing. That

43:46

they're never going to respond. They're never going to

43:48

lash out. It's going to happen. And every time

43:50

that happens, they say, see, this is proof why

43:53

we need to continue to kick them down. But

43:55

this whole system has now Deviated

44:00

to we're doing unnatural things,

44:03

you know, like I said earlier men and

44:05

women are different We have our places

44:07

for a reason and what you're trying

44:09

to do is force men into

44:12

a box that they're not comfortable with and

44:15

They're not built for and it's not within their

44:17

nature And so what you're

44:19

seeing is some men are conforming but

44:21

even their conformity is is a perversion

44:23

and it's is Destroying our society so

44:25

in order for us to get back

44:28

and get back to where we're supposed to be

44:30

We have to start building institutions men like yourself

44:32

men like myself and other people that are out

44:35

there We have to start using

44:37

our voice and using our platforms to get these

44:39

men and see that there's another way and then

44:41

Make it to where they're not afraid You know

44:43

what I mean? Men can't be afraid to say

44:46

that I'm a man and I stand on all

44:48

my masculinity and this is how I am And

44:50

if you don't like it, oh well cry all

44:52

you want, you know what I mean?

44:54

We have to stop giving these people so

44:56

much power by by acknowledging their

44:58

grievances that are really just Grievances

45:00

that are trying to manipulate you to give them

45:02

their way Yeah. Yeah.

45:05

Well said tell me a little bit

45:07

about your the reentry program that you run because

45:09

you had said that you I don't Know if

45:11

you started something or got involved with something But

45:13

that's pretty cool to see that you

45:15

turning around and helping other people who are

45:17

in a situation you were in Helping

45:20

them navigate that because you're a little bit further out ahead than

45:22

they are So, um,

45:25

it actually started through the church that I attend Peace Chapel

45:27

of LA It's over

45:29

on 76 that blonde and it's in the

45:31

heart of LA Anyways, it's

45:33

uh, I was actually I didn't

45:36

go to the church first they

45:38

the pastor there the Antoine Fitz he had

45:40

read some articles that I had written and

45:44

Reached out to me and was like look this is

45:46

what I'm doing I want to put together a program

45:48

for men were in the process of buying a

45:51

halfway house And we're gonna

45:53

start a program through that halfway

45:55

house and I want you to be involved

45:57

in it So I do it every Saturday. We run a

45:59

classroom 930 to 11 right there

46:01

at the church. We have

46:03

men coming from the halfway houses that come

46:05

and really it's just

46:08

about you know

46:11

getting us to be able to be

46:13

comfortable with the situation that we're in

46:15

and how we want to overcome it and to see

46:17

things in a different level. A lot of times these

46:19

men it's like they're stuck in this box of this

46:21

is the type of people I need to be around

46:23

this is how I have to dress and how I

46:25

have to talk and what I try to do is

46:28

get them out of that and say that there's a

46:30

whole different side of life and it

46:32

doesn't matter how many years you did in prison

46:34

or how much drugs you were addicted to you

46:36

can overcome that and we can start to become

46:38

the men that we were supposed to be. So

46:40

we do it every Saturday it's been going great

46:42

it's been almost two years now that I've been

46:44

doing it. We're planning on expanding

46:46

and doing some bigger things this year and it's

46:50

a you know it's in it and

46:52

going back to the point I said earlier about the camaraderie

46:54

it kind of has really hit help with that as far

46:57

as for me personally you know what I mean I always

46:59

tell them that that I get a lot out of it

47:01

because I'm around people that understand you know

47:03

that struggle that we come from and

47:05

we're able to kind of build bonds through

47:08

that and try to help each other overcome it. Yeah,

47:10

yeah that's powerful. Well brother

47:13

I appreciate the work that you're doing it's awesome to

47:15

be able to connect and learn and hear about more

47:17

of your story and I know a lot of the

47:19

men are going to resonate whether they've been in your

47:21

exact situation or something different they can see how they

47:23

can overcome those odds and make themselves better in spite

47:26

of their history. Tell the guys

47:28

where to connect with you you've got a podcast called

47:30

No Spoon Podcast and then you've got your first book

47:32

which is called the Freedom Doctrine I think that's book

47:35

one of I don't know how many but

47:37

tell the guys a little bit about that and then

47:39

where they can connect with you. So

47:42

you can go to my YouTube the No Spoon Podcast I

47:45

put videos up all the time you

47:48

know going to get back to running a weekly live

47:50

show we talk about culture politics

47:52

and common sense that's the tagline behind

47:54

it. My book is called the

47:56

Freedom Doctrine book one the reason

47:58

it's book one is because it's going to be

48:00

a series and this book is just basically telling my story

48:03

so you can see where I was coming from and I'm

48:05

going to get into I really wrote

48:07

this book because I wasn't happy with the rehabilitation

48:09

programs that they had for men that were coming

48:11

out in prison and addiction and stuff

48:14

like that. I really think that we

48:16

need to get back to the to to I always

48:18

say this and when it comes to those type of

48:20

institutions a lot of them are ran by women and

48:22

I don't have nothing wrong with women you know giving

48:25

their input but what I'm saying is that

48:27

sometimes and I think society is doing this

48:29

a lot that we're having we're

48:31

trying to give feminine answers to masculine

48:33

problems and so what I

48:35

wanted to do was write a program and this whole

48:37

series of books is going to be based on that

48:39

is how we can start giving

48:41

masculine answers to masculine problems and start

48:44

dealing it as men and how men

48:46

see the world and so you

48:48

know you can read this book if you're in any

48:50

situation you don't have to have been in prison or

48:52

on drugs you could just be in a situation where

48:55

you just feel like your life is at a standstill

48:57

or you don't feel like as a man you're getting

48:59

your you know your voice is being heard and being

49:02

able to live out your purpose and even

49:04

women can benefit from this book as well

49:06

you know just being able to see where

49:08

we fit in into the proper scheme of

49:10

life but it's called the freedom doctrine book

49:12

one it's available as an e-book right now I'm

49:14

going to bring release the paper book at the

49:16

end of the month but it's available on Amazon

49:19

you can go and look it up just put

49:21

in the freedom doctrine book one it'll

49:23

come up yeah look

49:26

for me on Instagram Che underscore uncensored

49:29

on Twitter no spoon podcast I

49:32

have a sub stack that I'm trying to

49:34

I'm really trying to get going as well it's

49:36

called Che writes that's W R I T

49:38

S where I'm putting

49:40

out articles at least once or twice

49:42

a week so awesome

49:45

man going on we'll think everything yeah you are you

49:47

do that's awesome I love to see it because you're

49:49

doing good work and we'll think everything up so the

49:51

guys know where to go Che I appreciate you and

49:53

you taking some time you know it's not always fun

49:55

or easy to talk about these things obviously you do

49:57

because this is the nature of your work now but

49:59

I appreciate it. I appreciate you being willing to

50:01

put that stuff out there and talk about the past

50:03

that I imagine you're not totally proud of, but

50:05

you got to be proud of what you've overcome.

50:07

So I thank you for that. Your example. Well,

50:10

I appreciate you, man. I thank you for having me on. I thought I

50:12

liked what you're doing over it, with your

50:14

show and everything like that and the things that you

50:16

have going on, man. It's

50:19

great to connect with like-minded

50:21

individuals, even if we come from different

50:23

backgrounds and different walks of life. I

50:25

like to say these principles and these

50:27

values, they transcend. So

50:30

it doesn't matter whether you're in the military,

50:32

you were in prison, you were in gangs,

50:34

you were in sports, you were just working

50:36

a nine to five job. The same principles

50:38

for success are there no matter what.

50:40

And so we can use them no matter what situation

50:42

we've been through. Right on. Thank you,

50:45

brother. I appreciate that, bro. Have a

50:47

good one. Gentlemen,

50:50

there you go. My conversation with Che.

50:52

I hope you enjoyed it. It

50:54

was a really fascinating discussion for me. I

50:56

felt like we were friends and

50:59

we've known each other for a long time, just

51:01

talking about his unique experiences of life. My

51:04

hope for myself and for you is that we

51:06

walk away with information or a mindset

51:09

shift that will help improve our lives and in

51:11

turn the lives of the people that we care

51:13

about. So go connect with Che, listen to the

51:15

No Spoon podcast, pick up a copy of his

51:18

latest book, The Freedom Doctrine, and make sure if

51:20

you take a screenshot real quick and let other

51:22

men know what you're listening to, tag

51:24

me tag Che, and let's

51:26

continue to spread the mission of reclaiming and

51:29

restoring masculinity. We need more men in this

51:31

battle. We need you in this

51:33

battle. So please share it. Leave that iTunes rating

51:35

and review or wherever you happen to be listening.

51:38

Go check out Montana knife company.com.

51:41

And the last thing

51:43

that I want to share with you today is

51:45

to check out again, our uprising experience. Remember

51:48

two spots left order man.com/uprising.

51:51

All right, gentlemen, you've got your marching orders. We

51:53

will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

51:56

Until then, go out there, take action and

51:58

become a man you are meant to be. Thank

52:01

you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If

52:04

you're ready to take charge of your life and be

52:06

more of the man you were meant to be, we

52:08

invite you to join the Order at orderofman.com.