0:00

This podcast is A3D audio

0:02

production. So watch out as sounds

0:04

may seem to come from beside you or behind

0:06

you. For the best listening experience, please

0:09

use headphones. We're

0:11

big fans of Cloneus, and

0:13

doppelganger here at Rome and have

0:16

several shows on the topic, which you are well

0:18

aware of since you're a member of the Clone Club.

0:20

In honor of our latest Clone story, EchoPark

0:22

starring Harry Schum junior, Please enjoy

0:25

this bonus episode where four creative producers

0:27

sat down to chat all things cloned in media.

0:30

And when you're done listening to this episode, be

0:32

sure to check out EchoPark and Overleeper.

0:34

For even more cloned shenanigans.

0:47

There are few things as captivating as

0:49

unraveling a family mystery especially

0:51

one with as many twists as June's journey.

0:54

And you know we love a good twist. In

0:56

June's journey, you play as June Parker

0:58

and investigate beautifully detailed scenes

1:00

set in the decadent twenties to solve

1:02

her sister's murder. Whether this is

1:04

your first case or your seasoned Sherlock,

1:07

June's journey will keep you hooked with new chapters

1:09

added every week. With more than a thousand

1:12

scenes full of hidden clues, there's always

1:14

something new to discover. I've also

1:16

really enjoyed chatting and playing with other players

1:18

in the detective club. It makes me feel like

1:20

we're a team on the case, and you can even

1:22

play against them if you're feeling particularly competitive.

1:25

And beyond the mystery aspect, June's journey

1:27

is just beautifully designed, and you can build

1:29

your very own island estate with expansive gardens

1:32

and beautiful buildings. I'm currently saving

1:34

up for a water feature in the front yard.

1:36

Pick up where you left off to uncover new secrets

1:39

or start your investigation today. And

1:41

download June's journey available

1:43

on Android and iOS mobile devices,

1:45

as well as on PC through Facebook

1:47

games.

1:53

Okay. I'm having pretty bad day.

1:56

It was supposed to be a glorious day.

1:58

I mean, I've left my hometown. That

2:01

may not sound like big deal, but I've

2:03

never set foot outside of this place

2:06

ever. No one that

2:08

lives in Corbat ever leaves. This

2:11

was supposed to be the day I finally took

2:13

control of my own life. And

2:15

ever since I left, nothing makes

2:17

sense. Now

2:20

I'm in a stolen car on the

2:22

run to the desert being chased by an

2:24

enormous crow. But I'm not

2:26

turning back. I don't care what's

2:28

out there. I'm leaving Corbat.

2:33

Check out leaving Corbat. A

2:35

multi season audio drama adventure

2:38

by the creator of the DeCA tapes.

2:41

Find leaving Corbat wherever you listen podcasts

2:43

or go to leaving Corbat dot

2:45

com to go on a bizarre road

2:48

trip.

2:54

Oh, yeah. So then this is like the the key seed

2:57

we have to talk about. And some of these,

2:59

like, high sci fi action movies

3:01

is, like, the body floating

3:03

in water and, like, a suspension change.

3:07

Hello. My name's Nicole Auto.

3:10

I'm a producer at Realm. Welcome

3:12

to our Round Table. I'm sitting down

3:14

with three of Realm's excellent producers

3:16

to chat about all things, in media.

3:19

Why cone stories are so popular in

3:21

movies, MTV, and books. The

3:23

tropes that

3:24

work, some that we think don't, and

3:26

what themes allow storytellers

3:28

to explore.

3:29

EchoPark stars Harry Shum Junior, Annex

3:31

set, and in your future LA in which exist.

3:34

If you haven't checked out the series yet,

3:36

don't worry. There won't be any spoilers

3:38

in this episode, but we will be discussing

3:40

spoilers for the

3:41

book. Never let me go by Kazuko, and

3:43

the movies, The Island and Species.

3:48

Hi. I'm Marco Palmieri, producer

3:50

and also the producer of Realm's

3:53

other show orphaned Black The Next

3:55

Chapter.

3:55

And I think later. Also producer

3:58

here at Realm. Hi.

3:59

My name is Rota. I am the

4:01

producer on EchoPark. And

4:04

I really love this season.

4:06

You know, EchoPark is about

4:08

a detective who goes undercover

4:11

as his clone. To find his claims

4:13

murder. But increasingly, he

4:15

realizes he has an

4:17

obsession with this life,

4:19

which he maybe likes better. And

4:22

all the while, he's discovering he and his

4:24

clone are at the center

4:26

of a really deep conspiracy. And

4:28

a serial killer is on the loose

4:31

And now our detective is the

4:33

primary target. So it's set in a

4:35

near future LA and it's

4:38

a

4:38

gritty, psychological thriller,

4:41

and you should absolutely check it

4:43

out. I second that. It is so much fun to

4:45

listen. So for first question,

4:47

I want to talk about what common

4:49

themes do you think that stories

4:52

explore? Marco, you want to go first?

4:54

Sure. I'd say common

4:56

themes that

4:58

stories explorer are usually questions

5:01

of identity. And

5:03

nature versus nurture. Because,

5:06

you know, stories are are basically

5:08

about doppelgangers. Who

5:11

are genetically identical to to

5:13

the originals, but

5:16

they haven't lived through the

5:18

same experiences. So

5:20

often the differences between

5:22

the original and the clone or between

5:24

different clones of the same person, the

5:27

core of the story is about what differentiates

5:30

them more than

5:32

what makes them this what makes them

5:34

the same.

5:34

Yeah. And I think, like, you know,

5:36

it also like, just to jump off

5:38

of that, it also, like, kind of on a

5:40

larger philosophical, like,

5:43

level. It, like, asks

5:45

what it means to be human because of that

5:47

question. Right? Like, you have, like, the

5:49

the constellation of this, like,

5:51

the uncanny, the existential, like,

5:54

the ethical ramifications of

5:56

it. Like, when you think about the

5:58

identity of, like, who is

6:01

real. It's like a question I think that, like, keeps

6:03

coming up again. And to Marco's

6:05

point, Curtis Chen, the lead writer

6:07

of this when we first started working on

6:09

this, he told me that, like,

6:11

one of his pet peeves about stories

6:13

is thus this idea that they're the same

6:16

person, you know? Whereas, like, really what

6:18

they are, is there a genetic twin

6:20

shifted perhaps in time? You know what

6:22

I mean? But Yeah.

6:25

You know, it it will it'll always come down to

6:27

that nature versus nurture element for

6:29

me. I would also add to for

6:32

me, it's of about, like, stepping outside of

6:34

yourself and kind of seeing, like, the path

6:36

not taken? Because I think all of us, like,

6:38

have this sort of, like you know,

6:40

we go through, like, thoughts, like, what happened if I

6:42

made this decision, like, what would my life be if I did this

6:44

instead of this stuff like clones are a way of,

6:46

like, seeing what does this other self look

6:48

like? What does this other life look like?

6:50

You know, with this, like, obsession that we have with, like,

6:52

the path not taken. So I think close our way

6:54

to to look at that and sort of, like,

6:56

explore different ways

6:57

of, like, what our live could have been. And

6:59

also how much of

7:01

who and what a person is is determined

7:04

by their genetics?

7:05

I also think I I mean, I really agree

7:07

with what you're saying, Michael. It's the idea

7:09

that if you could make a different choice,

7:12

if you were put into different circumstances,

7:14

how would you turn out and how scary

7:16

that could be if you're a person who

7:18

is unhappy, maybe with your current

7:21

lot, and then your seeing this alternate

7:23

version of you that has everything

7:25

that you

7:25

wanted? I've seen that a lot. No. It's

7:27

I was just gonna say, like, all of that, like, makes

7:29

it kind of, like, the the perfect

7:31

framing for a psychological thriller.

7:34

Yeah. Because

7:36

there's just, like, a because all of these questions

7:38

that ask or ourselves. It it's just

7:40

it's it's really really really compelling,

7:42

you know. And I think it shows up a

7:44

lot

7:44

and, like, a lot of

7:45

interesting ways in media. It

7:48

also leaves one of my favorite tropes, which

7:50

is the the parent trap trope

7:52

of switching places and

7:54

living the other life that you wish to go

7:56

back.

7:56

So funny that you went, like, really light.

7:59

You know? A cereal

8:02

for my own. I

8:04

was thinking of when you were

8:06

talking about, like, questions

8:09

of ethics when it comes to coding. Right? I was thinking

8:11

about never let me go. So it also went super

8:13

dark. I don't know if anyone's ever read that,

8:15

but basically group of

8:17

clones are being raised on a farm for for

8:19

organ transplants. Is that a

8:21

spoiler? Is that a massive

8:22

spoiler? It's not a it's

8:25

it is, but, you know, the book's like twenty five

8:27

years old at this point, so I think you're okay.

8:29

You know? Okay. We can also

8:31

just, like, put in a spoiler alert for other

8:33

things besides EchoPark. But, actually

8:35

yeah. I mean, that's that book

8:37

was actually go to the main inspirations

8:39

for this pitch. It was that.

8:43

And so that's yeah. So never

8:45

let me go as you should grow. And

8:47

the likeness by Tanna French, who's

8:49

an Irish crime novelist, which

8:51

is not actually about

8:53

a clone, but it is it

8:56

is about somebody who looks so

8:59

much like the detective and

9:01

kind of the same questions arise. So I think

9:03

it's like I think it's really

9:05

interesting because I was thinking of, like, my

9:07

favorite, like,

9:09

clone movies or,

9:11

you know, just, like, clone

9:13

related media And it's

9:15

like, there's there's one that hits

9:17

all these there's, like, a a

9:19

category that hits all these things that we're talking about.

9:21

Right? Like, which is, like,

9:23

you know, identity questions

9:25

of identity, nurture versus

9:27

nurture, all of these things. And then there's,

9:29

like, there's, like, blockbusters

9:31

that are, like, clone

9:33

adjacent. There's, like, one plot point.

9:35

Like, you know what? Like, like,

9:38

resurrection. Alien resurrection is

9:40

just, like, she was Cloneus like,

9:42

a Frank Segorni waved her back, like, two

9:44

hundred years later. But, like,

9:46

other eyes It's not.

9:48

And, like, apart from the gags, or

9:50

not gags, is it apart from, like, this kind of,

9:52

like, consistent re upping of,

9:54

like, you know, quipped where

9:56

she talks about how, like, you know, they're like, what

9:58

happened? She's like, I died. Well, I mean, it's funnier

10:00

than that. But, like, actually, doesn't

10:02

necessarily deal with, like, these questions of identity in

10:04

a larger way. It's it's like a

10:07

vehicle for, like, the blockbuster. But

10:09

I, you know, I I think they're both really,

10:11

really, if I'm yeah. I don't know. What what

10:13

were you guys,

10:13

like, thinking of when this conversation

10:16

came up? Like, you know, movies, I mean,

10:18

movies and books. Favorite

10:19

stories that explore some of these themes.

10:21

Because what you're describing, Rota sounds more like a

10:23

plot device. Right? It's cloning as plot

10:25

device. Right. Which is which is also really fun.

10:27

I mean, like, I think that that movie

10:29

also successfully, like, does a

10:31

thing where, you know, Suboni, we were so good in

10:33

everything she does. So she's just, like, it's

10:35

scary. Right? I got and I came back, so

10:37

it has, like, that identity element. But,

10:39

like, the stuff that, like, I thought really

10:41

hit these themes are actually, like,

10:43

kind of they're all kind of

10:45

bad, but they're so bad that they're good.

10:47

Right? Which is Gemini

10:48

man, Will Smith, love

10:51

him. Never seen

10:53

it, adding it to the list.

10:57

Okay.

10:59

Replicas? Cianna Reeves. Very

11:02

excited about that. Anyway,

11:05

I could I could go on, but I would like and

11:07

we can talk about those a little bit more

11:09

don't know. What were you guys, like, thinking of?

11:12

Did you guys go more intellectual and

11:14

heady than I did probably?

11:15

I think I went, like,

11:18

lighter. Like, when we're talking about clothes, the first thing that came

11:20

in my mind was cloned high, like, the

11:22

MTV franchise

11:23

and, like, the ninety. I've

11:24

never rid of it. I'm so excited about

11:28

it. I feel like it was a way ahead of its time.

11:30

So basically, it's show about about clones, but its

11:32

clones are like famous people throughout

11:34

history. So I think there's like Joan of

11:36

Arc, Cleopatra, Gandhi,

11:39

JFK, and Abe Lincoln. But

11:42

they're cloned as teenagers and they're,

11:44

like, modern high school. And

11:46

it's just funny to see these, like, personalities like

11:48

what they would be as teenagers.

11:50

And the modern world. So, like, labeling is like a

11:52

total door. And Joan of Arc

11:54

is, like, the rebel badass girl.

11:56

And, actually, attach is, like, the hot

11:58

popular girl. So it's, like, funny stuff. The,

12:00

like, play in the, like, world. So I thought

12:02

that

12:02

was, like, the first way. Where

12:04

can I where can I watch this? A

12:07

little bit of a dreamy. We have to see what's streaming

12:09

somewhere, but it's such a great

12:10

show. Yes.

12:11

It's so bold. What a

12:13

bold concept? I

12:16

smell a podcast. What

12:19

about you, Marco? Well, it's gonna come

12:21

as no surprise to anybody that

12:23

you know, I mean, I I think orphaned Black

12:26

that, you know, the TV show did a

12:28

fantastic job exploring these

12:30

issues. I was a huge fan of the

12:32

show before, you know, I worked on the

12:34

podcast version. But apart

12:36

from that, I mean, I also like

12:39

Swan Song, which came out last

12:41

year, about

12:43

a man who

12:45

finds out he's dying. And

12:47

his wife, you know, he has a wife, and they're about

12:49

to have a baby. And he's

12:52

given the opportunity to be

12:54

cloned and have his cloned

12:56

replace him after he's gone, but without

12:59

telling his family.

12:59

Mhmm. So so there's

13:02

there's disruption Yeah.

13:04

It it it it's not it's

13:06

not perfect, but it's a beautiful concept.

13:08

And the actors in it are great.

13:10

One that

13:12

I kinda Doug was a moon about

13:16

The sun

13:16

was great. Mhmm. Oh,

13:17

you you know the one? Okay.

13:18

Yeah. About a guy living living on the moon

13:21

by himself you know,

13:23

refine you know, it's a it's a the

13:26

refining moon dust to

13:28

sift the lithium out of it, I think, and

13:30

ship it back to Earth, but it's a one man

13:33

operation with a lot of automation. And,

13:36

well, spoiler alert, whenever

13:38

he dies, he's

13:40

replaced by a clone, but he

13:42

doesn't know it until one

13:44

of his clones actually goes

13:46

out to repair something and

13:48

finds his own body

13:50

out in the at the repair site. So

13:52

it's it's that's that's when it gets

13:54

really twisty and fun. For

13:57

unsettling Cloneus Stories,

13:59

I gotta go back to the nineteen

14:01

seventies. And cites the boys

14:03

from Brazil, which -- Mhmm. --

14:05

was a novel, and then couple

14:07

years later, was a movie with a great

14:09

cast, Gregory Pat Lawrence Olivier --

14:11

Mhmm. -- James Mason. Great

14:13

actors. Not that great a

14:15

movie, but but from a concept

14:16

standpoint, I mean, it's about it's about the possibility

14:19

of Cloneus Hitler in the present

14:21

day. Yeah.

14:21

Oh, my. That's

14:24

gonna be a no. Than

14:26

that. Right? You know It's a bad

14:29

idea. But

14:32

yeah. Those those

14:33

are my picks. Oh, yeah. That's

14:35

worth checking out. I wanna see

14:37

that or read it, I guess. Yeah.

14:40

So, like okay. So the premise of

14:42

Gemini Man is, I mean,

14:44

Will Smith's in it. So need you know, do you need a number?

14:46

But okay. It's about, like, of

14:48

course, he's, like, an assassin who's

14:51

excellent his job, decades

14:53

of experience, but as he's getting

14:55

older, he goes up against the

14:57

other best assassin who is

14:59

a version of himself as twenty years younger,

15:01

that has been Cloneus. And And

15:03

and, like, so watching the

15:05

movie is a truly a strange

15:08

experience because it's, like,

15:10

very good CGI, but

15:12

it's still It's

15:14

still CGI. Do you know? So

15:17

it's like him, like,

15:19

fighting and, like, doing all of these,

15:21

like, crazy acrobatic, like, action

15:23

scenes where they're trying to kill each other

15:26

with, like, Will Smith of

15:29

Fresh Prince era, you know. And then

15:31

so what I really wanted to see. I wanted

15:33

to see fresh prints. Okay. Will

15:35

Smith fighting, you know, president Day Will

15:37

Smith. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, no. No. Just

15:39

like fresh prints. Fighting Will Smith.

15:41

Like, you know, in

15:45

character. So there's that word.

15:47

And then replica is actually a super

15:49

great concept. Which is and

15:52

I like the I like the way they

15:54

handled the POV, but, you know, kind of in

15:56

similar theme. It's Kiana

15:58

Reeves. Who's my whole heart.

16:00

And he's a scientist and,

16:02

you know, something he's he's

16:04

a brilliant scientist and he's working

16:07

on like, advanced technology

16:09

and, you know, human DNA stuff.

16:11

And, like, kind of partway through

16:13

the movie are very

16:15

soon. And you realize that, like,

16:17

something is amiss and

16:19

his family come his his wife

16:22

confronts him and she

16:24

learns that she

16:27

and her two children died in a car accident,

16:30

something like cloned to them.

16:32

Mhmm. And and and

16:34

now, you know, people have found

16:36

out, and this is, like, you know,

16:38

like, just there are all kinds of questions

16:40

ethically about. But he

16:43

really loves that family, so then they're,

16:45

like, on a run, so it becomes, like,

16:48

becomes like a chase movie. You know,

16:51

Aon's, I really need to bring

16:53

up this one, which is a show called

16:55

Living with yourself. Did anyone see that

16:57

with Paul Rod? Paul

16:58

Rod. I

16:59

I know. Yeah. That's it. But I want to

17:01

see it because I love him. Did

17:03

you see it, Michael? What'd you think? No. I didn't see

17:05

it. I didn't see

17:05

it, unfortunately. Oh,

17:06

okay. I I watched it. I thought I thought it

17:09

was great. Yeah.

17:10

It's super solid. I kept expecting

17:12

them to announce the second season, but I guess, I guess, it's

17:14

not happening. But, yeah, I thought

17:16

I thought it was

17:17

awesome. It was I

17:18

guess, you know, the premise is over

17:21

the top. You know, obviously, you

17:23

know, this this this little, you

17:25

know, strip mall operation

17:27

that produces

17:27

clones. Right. But

17:30

it had this that that's what I that's what I loved about it is

17:32

that was really, like, hand waving the same way,

17:35

like, a terminal sunshine is with memory.

17:37

It's just, like, this is the thing that's

17:39

possible. So then now we're we've, like, bypassed

17:41

all of these, like, world building things because it's, like,

17:43

really just a character study.

17:45

About a shlubby guy

17:47

who, like, really is, you know,

17:50

unhappy with his life and, you

17:52

know, in in the throes of him and, like or

17:54

not like, in a midlife crisis and then, like, his

17:56

this relationship he has with his wife, you know, who,

17:58

like, increasingly becomes more impressed with, like,

18:00

different versions of him rather than him.

18:04

No. Yeah. You should watch

18:07

it, Nicole. It really I think I

18:08

would love it.

18:08

The wife is Andy McDowell. Right?

18:11

Is that who that is? Or did I make

18:13

that up? Andy McDowell was the wife in multiplicity, which is

18:15

the clone movie. Shit.

18:21

So amazing. I

18:24

got to look

18:27

at multiplicity now. Big

18:32

time. Oh, Eugene

18:36

Levy too. Yeah.

18:38

There were, like, all kinds of blast from the past

18:40

when I was just, like because I was, like,

18:42

alien resurrection

18:43

because, like, oh, yeah. So then there's this, like, the

18:45

the key seed we have to talk about.

18:48

And some

18:48

of these, like, high sci fi action

18:50

movies is, like, the body floating

18:52

in

18:52

water in, like, a suspension change.

18:57

Pre requisite for her part

18:59

to be considered a movie for

19:02

real.

19:02

Well, they're they're they're

19:03

not growing fast. Right.

19:05

I think about -- Mhmm. --

19:08

AMniotic fluids. Yes.

19:11

Also, floating like that is very calming. You

19:13

can actually book sessions to go

19:15

flow in sensory deprivation

19:17

chambers. So maybe it's so that they don't wake

19:19

up getting consciousness that are like, what the

19:21

hell? Right. Am

19:22

I? Who am I? Okay. Wait. I

19:24

actually have to pause for

19:26

like a like a science question,

19:28

which is a clone

19:30

cannot be birthed. Through,

19:32

like, oh, you know, the

19:34

birth canal? Like, there there's no way to,

19:36

like, install If you create an

19:39

embryo. Right? Presumably,

19:41

you know, the the the clone has

19:43

to start out, you know, from --

19:45

Mhmm. -- a small sampling of cells and

19:47

then grow into a psycho beyond that

19:49

with embryo, then I suppose you

19:52

could transplant

19:54

the embryo into

19:58

circuit, mother -- Yeah.

20:00

-- to to to carry it to term. So

20:02

yeah. So so strictly

20:05

not as exciting of a visual. Sure.

20:07

But, you know what I mean?

20:09

I mean, wildly exciting

20:11

because

20:11

that's, like, real life.

20:14

Most most world stories, though, seem

20:16

to involve, you know,

20:20

faster than normal, but sure it -- Oh.

20:22

-- of a question. So they

20:24

have A lot of things interact

20:26

with, you know, the original. Although

20:30

I guess I guess I

20:32

think it's orphan

20:32

black. They were born. Right? In orphan black,

20:35

they were they had mothers. were

20:37

all clothes at the same time from

20:39

a

20:39

host. Right. They had different mothers. Right? That's

20:42

that's true. That's true. Yeah. Right? Not

20:44

that. They were they were they

20:46

were birthed.

20:46

Yeah. Have

20:47

you ever been on a bad road

20:50

trip? No good

20:52

songs. Not enough

20:53

snacks.

20:54

And one of the people in

20:55

the back seat just decided he's a

20:57

crypto day trader.

20:59

I'm sure

21:00

you can relate right? Well,

21:03

let me tell you

21:05

they can get a lot

21:06

worse. I'm

21:07

on the most bizarre the

21:10

most dangerous disassociating

21:13

violent fever dream of a road

21:14

trip since

21:15

Mad Maxx decided he needed to get more

21:18

fuel. Don't

21:19

believe me? Look for the new

21:22

audio drama podcast leaving

21:24

Corbat and follow me on

21:26

my bizarre our journey as I try to leave my

21:28

hometown for the first time in my

21:30

life.

21:30

Listen to

21:31

leaving

21:31

Corvant wherever you listen to podcasts, or

21:34

go to leaving corvat dot com.

21:37

I dare you. Yeah.

21:47

EchoPark is you know, they're

21:50

they're similar ages. You

21:52

you are a similar age to your clone.

21:55

Although, I I still remember it it never

21:57

let me go. There was whole,

21:59

like, story. I guess, like, here, we

22:01

can't spoil. We've already spoiled. Never let me go.

22:03

Or maybe you'll take it out early.

22:05

Well, I was

22:07

thinking about the island. Did anyone see

22:09

the island, the movie from two thousand

22:11

five? That's

22:12

someone with Ewan McGregor? Yes.

22:13

I saw it. I remember I would tell

22:15

me why. Exactly. Mhmm. Because I loved

22:17

him so much in Mulan

22:19

Rouge. It's actually Scarlet Joe Hanson.

22:22

And then Bora Muir is also in it, Sean

22:24

Beam. But it's I it's

22:27

such a How does he die

22:29

in that? Like, on

22:31

my side. This character's

22:33

never survived. I I

22:35

was just thinking about that when we're talking about it never let

22:37

me go. I've already spoiled this, but it's the

22:39

same concept again. It's a it's

22:42

people being raised for organ transplants.

22:45

Basically, to be harvested for us for

22:47

their primaries health.

22:49

Wait. I remember this. They're on an island

22:51

and they think that they win a lottery.

22:53

No. Yes. So leave the island. Right?

22:55

And then they're just gonna go and get

22:57

their body cut up. So that they can, like, give

22:59

away a kidney or whatever or do

23:01

the things? That's oh, god. I

23:03

spoiled the island

23:04

too. I'll put a spoiler alert for the

23:06

island. I'm sure never let me talk

23:09

Well, what an interesting case study on how

23:11

you could take a similar concept or

23:13

a

23:13

similar, like, nugget

23:14

-- Right. -- and feed for an idea

23:16

-- Mhmm. -- and put it in and execute it

23:18

in two wildly different

23:21

directions because you never let me go. It's

23:23

so character driven. It's written

23:25

very in a very literary style.

23:27

The movie adaptation, which I really love

23:29

with Carrie Mulligan and Karen

23:32

Nightline. And I believe Andrew

23:34

Garfield in one of his earlier role

23:36

pretty spectacular. Yeah. It's very

23:38

it's very languid. It's very

23:40

heart venturing. Kind

23:43

of quiet. But

23:45

then you look at the island, which is like bam

23:47

bam blockbuster in every

23:49

sense of the world the

23:50

word. I think it's, you know, produced by Michael

23:52

Bay is, like, very known for those kinds

23:54

of

23:54

movies. Michael, you

23:56

haven't shared your favorite stories yet

23:58

though. There was one that's it it kinda goes

24:00

into, like, the more like, chilling,

24:03

sort of, like, version of but

24:05

there is an episode of an anime

24:07

called my hero academia, which is

24:09

about, like, teenage girls, like going to

24:11

a superhero academy. But one

24:13

of the villains that they face is a

24:16

character name twice, and he's able to

24:18

clone himself like that's a superpower. But

24:20

he gets to a point where he makes so many

24:22

clones of himself that they start to argue, which

24:24

one is the original. And,

24:27

like, if even he, like, gets confused because

24:29

he has so many of himself. He's like, maybe I'm not

24:31

me. So it gets to the point where

24:33

they they start to kill each other

24:35

because they're like, no. I'm the original. So

24:37

they literally start to kill each other. He's the only one left.

24:39

And afterwards, he refuses to

24:41

use his powers and he's left with

24:43

dissociative identity

24:44

disorder. Because he's not sure if he the original

24:47

hit.

24:47

Wow. This kind of brings up though,

24:50

you know, by by pet

24:53

peeve with Cloneus which

24:55

you brought up earlier, Roto, when

24:58

when you you mentioned what Kurt has

25:00

said. Mhmm. And that is, you know, you you

25:02

don't clone memories and you don't clone

25:04

personalities. So

25:06

if human cloning were to become real,

25:09

that stuff would never happen. It's

25:11

the kind of thing that that I

25:13

prefer cloned fiction to

25:15

avoid, you know, if possible, although I

25:17

know it can generate some cool

25:19

drama. But I I yeah. It

25:21

just bugs me when a story

25:23

is predicated on the idea

25:25

of of of of a clone

25:27

that has the memories and personality of

25:30

its

25:30

original. Mhmm. Yeah. Let's

25:32

just pet peeve. That's interesting because it

25:35

touches on the theme that we didn't talk about, but

25:37

seems to be an element of swan

25:38

song, which is the idea of clothing as

25:41

a as a way to cope

25:43

with loss.

25:43

Yep. And

25:44

I think that's why people are cloning their

25:47

pets. Or you can clone your pets

25:49

now? So you never

25:51

actually have

25:51

to lose things.

25:52

It's not the same pet. Right? It's just it's

25:54

just physically identical. It's --

25:56

Yeah. -- you know, it doesn't remember you.

25:58

It has to relearn

26:00

everything about

26:01

you. You have to relearn everything about it because it

26:04

hasn't lived the same life. So it's

26:06

not the same. It's a

26:08

totally different expression of

26:10

the that that thing

26:12

that you loved. Okay. Although, I

26:14

will say that I did meet a

26:16

woman who had cloned her

26:18

pomeranian, I was

26:18

like, oh, it was real.

26:20

I

26:21

still actually wonder because I was just like,

26:24

was she trolling me? That's

26:26

so crazy. You know? not

26:28

crazy. I mean, you know, loss drives us to

26:30

do really intense things

26:32

and -- Mhmm. -- and, like,

26:34

you know, I mean, and also this car like,

26:37

the the idea of, like, you know, when you're just, like,

26:39

quoting for to

26:43

compensate for a loss, however

26:45

misguided in, like, all of the kind

26:47

of dissociative, like,

26:50

mental things that, like, you know,

26:52

unfurl from this. EchoPark School because

26:55

it, like, actually like, every episode

26:57

is, like, is named after

27:00

a mental health like, issue people might

27:02

be going through whether or not it's a disorder or

27:05

or, you know, a stage of

27:07

something in development. And I think it's, like,

27:09

really cool and, really fun to look at. You

27:11

know, in terms of thematically what they were trying to say when

27:13

they were drawing out. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

27:16

Yeah. And it's really really,

27:19

really so heavy and

27:20

thoughtful. I love the

27:22

show. You My other pet peeve is

27:24

the whole idea of cloning humans to

27:27

harvest the raw organs. We now

27:29

know we now know you

27:31

can harvest organs or another

27:33

body parts by

27:34

themselves. You

27:35

don't have to Right. Probably even being to

27:37

do that. So you can sidestep that

27:40

ethical quandary, you

27:42

know. Yeah. You know it

27:44

does cloning. This isn't cloning, but I

27:46

do wanna bring it up because I

27:48

think it touches on all these themes that

27:50

we're talking

27:51

about. Has anyone watched Severance?

27:54

Yeah. Okay.

27:54

Do you want me to just, like, bounce out

27:56

right now before

27:59

okay. Is

28:00

that it is

28:01

the concept is definitely that

28:05

you're lose part of yourself when you go to

28:07

work. Like, you divide yourself. So I've seen

28:09

the first two episodes, so I I do know

28:11

that, which oh, but I see what you

28:12

mean, Mike.

28:12

Yeah. You part you partition you

28:15

partition your memories.

28:15

Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. But it hits off the

28:18

same kind of element thematically is what

28:20

you're talking about in terms of Yeah. Because if you

28:22

don't have your memories while you're working or

28:24

your personal or your personal ties

28:26

or or you don't, you know who you

28:28

know who you know who you're going home to at

28:30

the end of the day or where you're coming from. Like,

28:32

you kind of develop a different

28:33

personality, you develop a work personality.

28:35

Mhmm. And

28:36

the show the main character is played

28:38

by Adam Scott, and then you see him outside

28:40

of the office, and you see him in the office,

28:42

and he is two different people and

28:45

then they use that to

28:47

explore loss, which we were talking

28:48

about, and coping with loss. It's an excellent show.

28:50

I think it's been nominated for

28:53

fourteen Emmys it's a slow but it

28:56

really, like, builds up

28:58

steam as it goes. And by the time you get to

29:00

the finale, you're like,

29:03

Oh, yeah. Okay. Alright. Cool. Yeah.

29:04

And that's

29:04

it. Yeah. I've

29:05

my mentoring visited. I Yes.

29:07

So I'm pumped. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

29:10

Well, yeah. But it's still you know, I'm still

29:12

considering it. For these reasons,

29:14

it's still a clone thing to

29:16

me, whereas something like alien resurrection

29:19

Right. And oh, you know what else? The geek up too.

29:21

You know what else involved a

29:24

clone. And this

29:26

was, like, cloned for a film fatality reasons,

29:28

but did anyone see that movie

29:31

species where

29:32

No. No. No.

29:34

Okay. Does anyone wanna give give us the

29:37

premise? It's been so long.

29:38

I can't remember. I would actually

29:40

love, like, as you remember it.

29:42

Forget if she

29:43

was, like, she was made in a lab. Right?

29:45

She no. She was an alien. She was an alien.

29:47

Yeah. She came out of a

29:48

pod. Right? Yes. She was like an

29:50

alien clone hybrid. I

29:52

think. Mhmm. And

29:53

she's obviously sexy.

29:56

And they had made like, you know,

29:58

they I think this like

30:00

the second movie, but they had made the the

30:04

species a woman this time

30:06

because they're just like it'll be more

30:08

docile except inversion.

30:11

Now she's too sexy to stop. You

30:13

know what I mean? Like,

30:16

too many people wanna have sex with

30:18

her for her to be stop a

30:19

ball. That's, like, a

30:21

really That'd be ad blind too sexy

30:24

to stop. Oh, my god. That's

30:26

terrible.

30:27

And that you you would succeed in marketing. So

30:30

that's no. But that's, like, a really kind

30:32

of that was, like, tight like, embedded

30:34

in my mind that they're just, like, oh, you know, we'll

30:36

we'll make it a female, so it's

30:38

more docile. And then we'll

30:40

speak to the spoilers. It's totally absurd. She's

30:42

like basically oh, this is this is really so

30:45

absurd. She

30:46

is, like, on a killing rampage, you're looking

30:48

to procreate.

30:51

Fuck. And there's, like, what's he where

30:54

she's, like, you know, DTF

30:57

with some guy who she meets at a club, and

30:59

then she, like, just suddenly is not into it,

31:01

and then he's, like, not okay with

31:03

that. And then ends up killing him because

31:04

he's, like, you know, being kind of a

31:07

dick. Did she have, like, a potential partner that

31:09

she pulled away from

31:11

because she smelled cancer on him or

31:13

some

31:13

thing. Yeah. That's that's that's what it was. Does that, like

31:15

and then they, like, they, like, go and

31:18

they go to the crime scene, and it's, like,

31:20

he had to inject insulin or something,

31:22

you know? So you're, like, wasn't, like, an

31:24

ideal me. And then you realized, this

31:26

is so funny. Actually, it's hysterical.

31:29

Like, it sounds like a fake

31:30

pitch. But it turns

31:32

out that that No. It

31:34

turns out that the that the the person

31:36

she wants to mate with

31:39

is the main detective working for her? Because

31:41

he's, like, the perfect whatever.

31:43

Do you know? Mhmm. So now

31:45

she's been taking him. So

31:48

it's so it's so bad.

31:50

It's good. And that's

31:51

so, you know, that's it's like a kind of it's

31:54

it's a clone movie with a NASH six next

31:56

to it.

31:56

That's okay. However I

31:58

I need you to watch this. I love.

32:00

I love you guys so bad.

32:02

It's good news.

32:03

Two hours you're never gonna back.

32:04

But I don't know. I bet you there's

32:07

like a super cut or something, you

32:09

know? Or I could just I could just tell

32:11

you, like, all the memorable scenes, which

32:13

is that you know, because she's so

32:15

hot. Right? So there is, like, one scene

32:17

where, like, all these people are waiting to get into a club,

32:19

but she's, like, just walks up and takes

32:21

off her and then they're like, oh, come

32:23

in. You know what I mean? They, like, don't know what to

32:25

do. Like, nobody in this movie knows

32:27

what to do around a pretty person.

32:29

You know, they're just like a

32:31

lose their minds. Just like a psychosis. It's

32:33

that's what she

32:34

inspires. So I do I

32:37

do. I love it so bad. It's a good

32:39

movie. It's a great type of genre for

32:41

me. I I think that that

32:43

is a real thing. You have something

32:45

that is abysmal to the point. It's

32:47

a masterpiece. To go back to clones,

32:49

I have a question. If you

32:52

could clown yourself, would

32:54

you? And why or

32:57

why not? Absolutely not.

33:00

And the reason is I think there are still too

33:02

many moral and ethical questions, you

33:04

know, connected to

33:06

human cloning. And

33:08

there's too likelihood that some idiot

33:11

is going to argue successfully

33:13

that clones aren't people

33:15

their property. So

33:19

Yeah. There's no reason to

33:21

clone fully sentient

33:24

humans. None. There's

33:26

no advantage to it. There's no

33:28

nothing to be gained by it,

33:30

especially, you know, even the harvesting thing

33:32

doesn't work because as I said earlier, if

33:35

you need if if if if someone needs a spare

33:37

organ, they can clone the liver. You know, they don't have

33:39

to clone the whole person. So

33:41

yeah. I I would I would do it.

33:43

I wouldn't do it for, like, less

33:46

high minded reasons. I'm just, like, I

33:48

would just be, like, too competitive. You know

33:50

what to be? I like I

33:52

guess, baby, you could argue that, like, if the clone's a baby, I wouldn't

33:54

be competitive with a baby. But, like,

33:56

I can't promise you anything. You know what

33:58

I mean? Like, it's not it's it's like

34:01

an identical genetic

34:04

material and, like, that that

34:06

that's the part that weirds me out is that it's I

34:09

know it's not me. Feels

34:11

like it's me, and I don't like that. So but

34:13

but also ethical issues,

34:15

obviously, first and

34:18

foremost. One

34:19

of me is enough. I don't need another one

34:21

running around somewhere. Incredible.

34:26

Yeah. That that was my yeah. My other

34:28

answer was, like yeah. The world doesn't beat

34:30

too. That's I don't need too many. One

34:32

is too

34:33

many. We don't need enough.

34:36

There's actually, like like in EchoPark,

34:38

there is AAA

34:40

thematic refrain that a lot of the different

34:43

characters go through, which is that

34:45

they, like, you know, it's called EchoPark because well, it's

34:47

it's set in EchoPark, but also

34:49

the terminology that the cloned

34:52

community uses is Echo

34:54

and

34:54

Source. And so and so, you

34:55

know, there's there's echo

34:58

being echo being like

35:00

the clone. And

35:02

there's, like, a movement within the Quorum community to, like I

35:05

mean, there's just, like, an increasing obsession

35:07

with your, you know, quote unquote, original

35:09

or your source.

35:12

And and then, like, backlash against, like, we don't need them and stuff like that.

35:14

But, you know, it it comes up once in

35:16

a while like this idea of oftentimes,

35:19

it comes up like a sibling. Right? Like like

35:22

like the curiosity and the wonder of

35:24

what it would

35:26

be like

35:27

to not be alone.

35:30

You know? And -- Mhmm.

35:31

-- and it's interesting how that's the way

35:33

the question manifests itself when you

35:35

know when you learn, someone's out there. I mean, some of

35:37

the characters don't even know where they learn throughout

35:39

the course of the season that they have

35:41

a

35:41

clone, so then you know, you're you're

35:44

feeling you're dealing with, like, that fallout.

35:46

Yeah. Or for Black did a lot of that too,

35:48

where the clothes were not

35:50

aware of what they

35:52

were until they met

35:54

others like themselves. And and

35:56

and and, you know, there were

35:58

whole story lines and and questions raised about

36:00

whether or not to make clones self

36:02

aware. And what with ramifications of that

36:04

would be within the context of the

36:06

of the orphan black universe. But,

36:10

yeah, There's fun stuff. There's fun stuff on the team. Yeah.

36:12

Fun fun stuff to explore in the in

36:14

the podcast

36:14

version. Yeah. They make a sisterhood.

36:16

They call each other sesters. Right? Right.

36:19

Yeah. Yeah.

36:19

The ones who who formed

36:22

a small community, the beginnings of a

36:24

small community, like, the they they

36:26

become a

36:26

distribute. I also would not clone myself for all the reasons that you stated. I think

36:29

if I grew up with my clone, it

36:31

would and they just

36:34

looked exactly like me, we were we were nurtured the same way -- Yeah. --

36:36

that it would be, like, having a twin

36:38

in somewhat, like, a identical twin. Yeah. And

36:40

then if I didn't if I if I

36:42

now, I'm, like, I

36:44

will close myself and I raise the baby,

36:46

then that feels wildly

36:48

narcissistic to just mother myself

36:50

as a -- Right. -- in

36:52

that

36:53

way? Yeah. You gotta ask the question, why do it this Why

36:56

why why create another human

36:58

being this way? When, you

37:00

know, procreation is possible, adoption

37:04

is possible. Able, you know. Yeah. So many

37:05

things. Yeah.

37:06

The the it it human coding

37:08

just I mean, from a

37:10

from a real life standpoint.

37:13

Human clothing doesn't really make a

37:15

lot of sense. Yeah.

37:16

It's a god complex thing. People just Right. Right.

37:18

You might wanna be able to do it. Yeah.

37:20

Let's do it because we can. Right?

37:22

Mhmm. If you could introduce a cloned plotline into

37:25

any TV show. Oh,

37:27

I love this one. And

37:33

it doesn't have to be sci fi or fantasy or

37:35

something that -- Oh. -- like, it doesn't

37:37

have to be believable. You could do it for only

37:39

murders in the building. Oliver

37:42

has a

37:43

clone, you know, that kind of thing. Mhmm.

37:44

Is that yours? No. But it

37:46

would be like that.

37:49

Yeah. Stop there. I think I wanna go light and

37:52

introduce, like, a strange love

37:54

triangle in, like, something. You

37:56

know what? But

37:59

I'm trying to think of like a light show that I watched

38:01

recently. I'm gonna say

38:02

industry. I don't know if anyone has

38:06

watched

38:06

industry at all. Mhmm. It's

38:08

an HBO show. It premiered in twenty twenty. It's

38:11

about basically trading in the

38:13

finance world in London. And

38:15

the second season just started in twenty twenty two. I think it

38:18

I think it largely went under the radar because

38:20

of everything happening in twenty

38:21

twenty, but now it's now it's back and it's getting

38:23

a lot of critical acclaim and

38:25

it's Brilliant. And

38:26

I think I would put the

38:28

clump potline there because the

38:31

main characters would be

38:33

trying to get people to invest in some kind

38:35

of cloning firm. And then that would

38:38

be that would be like the major thread

38:40

throughout the

38:42

whole series. Like, this is new incredible technology, and we

38:44

need our guys to invest in this for

38:46

our firm. And then it would it

38:48

would kind of skirt any

38:50

sci fi or

38:52

fantasy and become all about,

38:54

like, avariciousness.

38:56

And but I also think that

38:58

it's such a smart show that I would explore

39:00

all of the themes that we were talking about as

39:01

well. That's my answer. Oh, but

39:04

it's really off the wall. I think that I would

39:06

now that now that like,

39:09

I've wrapped my head around it, I would clone Tom

39:12

from secession. Yeah.

39:16

Because I just, like, need more of

39:18

his dialogue. And I need his dialogue bouncing

39:20

off of his whole dialogue. Do

39:23

you know what I mean? I just want two of those

39:26

people big fucking nuts

39:28

and, like, neurotic

39:30

and competitive And,

39:32

you know, and I think it could go in interesting

39:34

ways because one could, like, kind of

39:36

really whichever one, right,

39:38

the source of the echo. Could,

39:40

you know, remain wildly dedicated to

39:42

shave. And then the other one could

39:44

just, like, go off and do, like,

39:47

other nefarious things, which is like, you know, a

39:49

thing that the show was already exploring. So

39:52

that's what that's that's

39:53

mine. Rosa, I know exactly what

39:55

you mean by that because I for the

39:58

same reasons, I would

40:00

clone LASLO from what we do with

40:02

the

40:02

shadow. My

40:02

god. My god. He wants to watch two

40:05

of him

40:05

play off each other.

40:09

Love that. You too. You're so

40:11

new. I feel bad. I love

40:14

that.

40:17

That's incredible. Nadia would be

40:19

also pleased. I would

40:21

introduce a plot line and

40:23

to Gilmore Girls. Because I could see, like so there's a character

40:25

tailored dosing. He was, like, maybe he's, like, beige, like, the

40:28

mayor of Star Hollow. And he's always doing, like,

40:30

these coo y, like,

40:32

talent events. So I can see him

40:34

doing, like, the Stars Hollow cloning event, and

40:36

everyone's like, what the hell, like, what are you

40:38

doing? And, like, all of the characters,

40:40

like, all the talent support, like, these cookie like

40:42

character actors. So I can speed them, like,

40:44

ripping and doing all these, like, weird versions of

40:46

themselves, like, as they're clones, which could be,

40:48

like, super fun. But and then

40:50

also that way, like, you call them the Gilmore

40:52

Girls, they can see that they are not the center of the

40:54

universe. There's another one of them. Either

40:56

that or they would just follow them or they

40:58

would just follow them with themselves because they

41:00

are very

41:00

there. So they wait to

41:02

follow-up with their questions. Incredible. Incredible answer.

41:07

I'm also just

41:10

picturing a seasonal succession

41:12

in which one Tom is working for

41:16

the dad. And one is working for the siblings.

41:18

Like, just really working

41:20

both

41:20

sides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's

41:24

see it. I could see it. And then

41:26

they would, like, kind of, like, convene and secret. You know what I mean? It's

41:28

some, like, secret corner office and then just be,

41:32

like, really, You don't have it. It was like really freaking

41:34

out at each

41:35

other. Ready?

41:36

Let's write this next

41:37

friends. Let's do

41:40

it. Thank

41:42

you so

41:42

much for listening. Don't forget to check

41:45

out EchoPark starring Harry Shum Jr.

41:47

Wherever you get your pod guests.

42:57

Hi. I'm Tatiana Maslani. I'm the

43:00

Emmy Award winning actor of the hit

43:02

TV show, Orphan Black.

43:04

I'm also the star and executive

43:06

producer of power trip, my

43:08

brand new show on Realm.

43:10

And I'm Amy. I'm not in the show,

43:12

but I am here to tell you about it.

43:14

Power trip is a dark comedy for

43:16

fans of Freeback and Russian

43:18

doll. Tatiana Maslan