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0:02

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Alright, very welcome along. We think it's Wednesday.

0:42

It is OTVAM. We're here all the way until

0:45

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number or you can leave a comment on the YouTube

0:51

stream We're gonna look back on Ireland's performance

0:53

gonna look like on Scotland's performance last night We're gonna look ahead

0:56

to Munster at the weekend. I think

0:58

it is kind of crept up almost imperceptibly But

1:00

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1:02

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1:07

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1:15

Shane is here Shane. Good morning to you. Good morning How are you? Column

1:17

is here. Column, how are you? Jordan Shane, hello.

1:19

We haven't heard from you about the Ireland game yet, Column. It's

1:22

true. Yeah, it's true. Considered thoughts. Very

1:24

strong thoughts. Sweep in at the end and

1:27

decide, yeah, no, we were all wrong all week. Not

1:29

a very strong thought. I was kind of

1:31

taken aback by Virgin Media's coverage, especially Damien

1:33

Delaney, and playing care for the simple reason that I was

1:36

even talking to Vinny Pert about this yesterday. Like

1:38

the idea, oh, well, we lost the game, like,

1:40

you know, and it's absolute, it's at its finest. But

1:43

like ultimately it's a lot

1:45

of championship players and one league one player

1:47

starting against a team where six

1:50

of the eleven played in the World Cup Final a

1:52

few months ago and another three who

1:54

came out in the World Cup Final against Argentina also started

1:56

the game and also half the team are about

1:58

to play in the Champions League Qu Stew finals with their clubs.

2:01

And it's a lot of championship players. And some of whom

2:04

don't play that regularly even when they're playing at a higher level, like

2:06

Matt Thaugherty. Our Seamus Coleman was coming back from injury.

2:09

So in many ways, it was an absolutely remarkable

2:11

display and had Nathan Collins' header got in

2:13

at the end, we'd be talking about one of the better

2:16

one-all draws that Ireland specialised in. And

2:18

it was a fine line, a fine margin. And I think

2:21

I was surprised by really any

2:23

sort of negativity outside of the result. And

2:26

then you go back to it and you look at it objectively

2:28

and six months or 12 months down the line, you'll be

2:30

like, oh, that time we lasted home to France in the first

2:33

Euro 2024 qualifier, oh,

2:35

that was a really poor start. And you look at Stephen

2:37

Kennedy's record, four wins in his 22

2:40

competitive games, the highlight being Scotland

2:43

last summer. So when you look at it from

2:45

a pure statistical point of view, it continues

2:47

a very poor run of form from the manager. But

2:49

then if you look at a performance, it was

2:51

a really, really promising Irish display

2:54

where we try to play as much football as possible, too

2:56

much so that it actually costs us a

2:58

goal at the end. But like, how could you

3:00

not be positive about that to stay considering the opposition?

3:03

It's the age old argument, isn't it? Performance versus result.

3:06

Like, which do you prioritize?

3:08

A course we would have loved, Daro Shiz header at the

3:10

end to go in and get the draw, but like

3:12

Collins,

3:13

or sorry, Collins, it was Collins? Yeah.

3:15

It was Collins, yeah, of course. So

3:18

if that goes in, the dynamic of course is different.

3:20

The conversation in the last two days is massively different.

3:23

But like the performance I think you have to make place

3:25

massive weight on. I don't know what percentage you place on the performance,

3:28

but

3:28

I certainly think it's an

3:31

important discussion because if we played like

3:33

that against Greece and Gibraltar, there's no

3:35

question we win all four of those games. We had

3:37

the same number of shots at France. Ah,

3:39

when you put like... Do you know what I mean? It was

3:42

just that we just piled it all in at the end in the last 10

3:44

minutes because we weren't... There's

3:46

no trust really at the start and that was the one thing you'd say like, by half

3:48

time, they're a keeper, nothing to do. And

3:50

so we contained them very well. But

3:53

that is the match went down. We created a chance. It was the

3:55

same with France. They were slightly off, but they

3:57

had that class about them too that anytime they wanted

3:59

they could opt the gears. I thought, I thought we were going

4:01

to get a hiding. I really didn't. I thought they were going

4:03

to easily pick us off. Yeah.

4:06

Two or three nil. That's a positive thing. On the

4:08

balance of experience and

4:10

talent, we should have got a hiding. But

4:13

we managed to create a situation where

4:15

that didn't happen. And for that, you've got to give the team

4:17

credit and you've got to give the management credit. This

4:20

whole like, oh, France were just off because they were

4:22

just off. There was no, there's no reason they were

4:24

off. It was like an independent thing, almost

4:27

like they chose to be off somehow as opposed to, opposed

4:29

to Ireland inflicted some things on them.

4:31

We managed the space

4:34

around Mbappe. When you listened to

4:37

Philippe Leclerc yesterday, he was like,

4:39

well, we've always struggled against a low block.

4:41

You guys put a low block, you managed it very well, you closed down our space.

4:44

Then afterwards, Deschamps

4:46

analysed the game coldly and said, we weren't

4:48

as good as we could have been, but that was largely in part because

4:51

of the

4:52

defensive qualities of the opposition. That

4:54

was us. That was us he was talking about. It wasn't just

4:56

an attaboy. the

4:58

goalkeeper saved us one, three points for us at the end.

5:01

You're like, okay, so

5:02

there's

5:05

still a cohort of people who are completely

5:07

unwilling to accept that anything good that

5:09

Kenny does is down to Stephen

5:11

Kenny and the environment that he has created and the

5:13

culture that he has created within the team. Now,

5:16

in the absence of results, because

5:18

all those horrible cliches about football

5:21

being results business is unfortunately true, in

5:23

the absence of results, people

5:25

are never gonna believe this. They're never gonna

5:27

accept that what Kenny has done

5:30

in trying to be ambitious for

5:33

our football culture is

5:36

a thing worth doing, right? There's a lot of people who just

5:38

don't think that's worth pursuing. They

5:40

would much rather watch the turgid

5:43

performances that we had under Mick

5:45

McCarthy. Did you remember Mick

5:46

McCarthy's game against Gibraltar? It'd be a brilliant

5:49

thing to see how we do against Gibraltar. And look, we

5:51

haven't been great under Kenny against the bad

5:53

teams, but at least when we're going tune

5:55

it up. We're going to tune it up and then we're continuing

5:57

to use stupid calls.

6:00

and see how we get on against Gibraltar. That'll be a proper,

6:03

has there been any progress made between, do you

6:05

remember, that's already played half a game

6:07

and James Coleman played at

6:10

the same time and that never worked again apparently.

6:13

Well yes, it was certainly the narrative around Killing

6:15

Mbappe, this idea that oh yeah he played

6:17

badly but there's no credit

6:19

given to Ireland or to James Coleman maybe

6:22

for keeping him quiet but yeah

6:24

I think around this Irish team that's generally

6:27

the negative vibe. It's the Irish way as

6:29

well to nearly go, oh well, they must have played

6:31

badly.

6:31

We came so close to the World Cup runners

6:34

up, we can't have possibly played well.

6:36

We expect an awful lot from our national football team, don't we?

6:39

We do. I mean, we don't. Like, if you look at it, it's

6:41

just like as coldly as possible. There's

6:43

no way that Ireland should be doing anything really

6:45

considering the players they have against the opposition

6:47

to go up against. So what you're really looking for

6:50

is one of two things. You're looking for better

6:52

football played because you're going to replay good football.

6:54

Or you're you're looking for a good time.

6:56

You're looking for the party at the national tournaments, or

6:58

international tournaments. You're looking for that Reeling in the Years

7:00

moment. That's really all you can hope for because otherwise

7:03

it's like, why don't we get so upset? I'll

7:05

hang on now, because if all you want is the

7:07

Reeling in the Years moment, then

7:09

you can get an old school, Wimbledon 1980

7:13

style football going. Your

7:16

working theory that international football is

7:18

very difficult to have a coherent product.

7:20

The only way to do that is to have like kick and rush, push

7:23

everybody up. We could do that if that's what we

7:25

want, and we could just

7:26

get like all the big strikers we have, come

7:28

back Gary Doherty, come back

7:31

Salmon of College, you guys can play up front

7:33

with two up front and drop all the good

7:35

players and just

7:36

boot, bite and bollock. Basically be a rugby

7:38

team. We could do that. If all you want is the moments,

7:41

we can deliver those moments for you, no problem. Yeah,

7:43

but in 1988, 1994, 2002, we had a much better squad of players available

7:45

than we do

7:49

now. So, it's very difficult to

7:52

recreate those special moments at the big international

7:54

tournaments like we saw in Euro 2012. It

7:57

was a disaster. 2016 we did quite well.

8:00

beat what was the second string Italy side, but we beat

8:02

them nonetheless. So,

8:03

failing all that, wouldn't it be great to actually

8:05

improve the team

8:07

from bottom to top?

8:08

And that's really what Stephen Kenny's trying to do. But

8:10

what defines Kenny's era so far, there's

8:12

two games in particular. Monday nights, one of them. And

8:15

then September 2021, away to Portugal,

8:17

where we played absolutely brilliantly until

8:20

the very end when Cristiano Ronaldo scored twice and

8:22

Arden loses the game 2-1. And if you look at

8:24

him competitive record, I already mentioned the four wins

8:26

in 22 competitive games. They've lost seven of the

8:28

last 15 competitive games, but all by

8:31

the odd goal. It's very actually

8:33

Patrick Vieira Crystal Palace that we were talking about just

8:35

before Vieira left was like Palace Ironken

8:37

and Hammered. So it's very difficult to be like

8:39

what he has to go. And at the end of Giofana

8:42

Cappitoni

8:43

and Martin O'Neill, there were hammerings, but

8:45

there's been no hammerings under Kenny. So that's why

8:47

we're in this kind of gray area. And I think Monday

8:49

Night sums it up, played well, but lost. I

8:52

think that there's a, I know it's an age old discussion

8:55

and hypothetical, but can you imagine if we didn't

8:57

have

8:59

rugby and GAA? Can you imagine if soccer

9:01

was our only outlet? Now,

9:03

there's a parallel universe out there somewhere where

9:06

it is the case where we only have a good soccer team,

9:08

we don't have rugby teams, or GAA doesn't get

9:10

in the way. But I think, like I actually

9:12

had a chat with Jonathan Douglas yesterday and it came into my head where

9:15

I was like,

9:16

you know, he was a really good GAA

9:18

player, but

9:19

then chose soccer. But can you imagine all of these

9:21

soccer players and the rugby players and GAA

9:23

players were choosing soccer. It's a hypothetical

9:25

argument

9:26

but

9:27

like has there ever been a point where we have been the best rugby

9:29

team in the world and we've had a really good soccer team at

9:31

the same point at the same point in time? We're

9:34

heading in that direction. Do you know we are the best

9:36

rugby team in the world at the moment

9:37

and

9:39

the team under Stephen Kenny is very

9:41

good without results. It was probably the early naughties in

9:43

terms of the two, we were a great one at the World Cup and then a year

9:45

later we were competing with the Grand Slam and the Sixth Nation so

9:47

it was probably around then but obviously this rugby team as long as

9:50

you're past that. Your point about if

9:52

rugby GAA wasn't played. So I mentioned this

9:54

in the debate about a year ago with

9:56

a bunch of friends in

9:58

a social setting. And I suggested

10:01

that if you can just imagine for a second

10:04

that we didn't have so many sports in a country so

10:06

small, i.e. if we didn't really play rugby, our

10:08

G.A. wasn't a thing, and we just dedicated

10:10

ourselves to football,

10:12

we could potentially be a whole

10:14

lot better at football. And my argument was,

10:16

do we have too many sports available so you can never

10:18

actually do the 10,000 hours mastery

10:20

enough for destination because it's too much

10:22

there? Look, Croatia. And so your pub

10:24

conversation stayed there, and no

10:27

one did any research or talked to any scientists

10:29

about how actually being good at loads of different sports

10:32

makes you better at

10:35

the one that you end up specialising in. Nobody bothered

10:37

to read any books or Google. They

10:39

have this mobile phone and

10:41

it's connected to the internet and you can type some

10:43

stuff into it and then all of the world's information

10:46

is available to you. No, that's

10:48

good. Thanks for that.

10:50

I would love to know, so you look

10:52

at the good international sites, the great international

10:54

teams across the world. Spain. Spain?

10:57

What do they have? Yeah, but like England.

11:02

Well, it's what are they playing? What are they playing? Well, it's a moral

11:04

question. A statement. Rugby

11:07

rugby as well for France, but like

11:09

that again, we're getting into the area of populations. Yeah,

11:12

I think I think I think

11:14

we need to train this

11:16

back in again. So if

11:19

you look at New Zealand, for example, New

11:21

Zealand have an institute of sport. And so

11:23

therefore, when anybody is any good at rowing,

11:26

they get at a certain point,

11:28

you get turned into a roar, but they're also

11:31

amazing at cricket, and they're also, this is

11:33

notwithstanding the clear thing that they're the best in

11:35

the world at over a long period of time. So

11:37

I mean, actually, we benefit from having people

11:40

be good at loads of different sports. We're just

11:42

not very joined up, or haven't traditionally been

11:44

very joined up at injecting

11:46

speed into our younger athletes

11:49

early on in their career, making sure that everybody's

11:52

doing movement skills as opposed to

11:54

just the things that is

11:56

good for one individual sport. and also we've

11:59

kind of been scared.

12:00

coaching. We haven't injected coaching into our systems

12:02

early by making it mandatory to have a full-time

12:05

PE teacher in primary schools. Like, there's loads

12:07

of different things that we could do that would completely

12:09

transform our sporting landscape over the next 15 to 20 years

12:12

that we're not really that interested in having conversations around.

12:14

Yeah, okay. That's totally fair because

12:16

I can think of it myself growing up. When I was

12:19

nine years old, playing on the under 10 side,

12:21

my local football team, we played 11 11 a side.

12:25

Humblebrag. Yeah. 11 a side. Humblebrag.

12:28

I was a child playing sports. Oh, you loved

12:30

that. 11 a side. Yeah. In

12:32

the big goals. Yeah. So what

12:34

would happen is you get this over-develated young fella who is bigger than all the other kids

12:37

and he's scoring like double hat tricks every

12:39

game because nobody else can physically keep up with him

12:42

and all you have to do in big size goals when you're

12:44

tiny is to shoot either side of the goalkeeper. Chip

12:46

it. That fella gets trials with Southampton and

12:48

he's back after two days because like this guy can't

12:50

play ball because we didn't get enough ball at our

12:52

feet when we were younger and we were playing catch up.

12:55

That question about PE and the

12:58

state of PE in Irish schools, I know we've had the discussion

13:00

with all the farmers not too long ago, but what

13:04

was your PE experience like

13:05

in school? Because for me it was, and I can't

13:07

speak highly enough of my school or my PE teachers,

13:09

but it was generally here's the ball,

13:12

you lads who are good at

13:13

sports, go in there and play five a side

13:15

and just pick your own teams. I'm just going to stand over here and

13:18

you lads who are not interested in sports, go upstairs and

13:20

maybe walk around and maybe play table tennis if you

13:22

want or just stand and talk I don't care. And

13:26

that's not a downer on my teachers

13:29

again or my school. It's more just

13:32

that is the nature of PE in

13:34

Irish schools. I think it's lazy.

13:36

It is. But

13:39

that's why so many people don't get into sport. It's like it's not

13:41

seen. It's seen as a competitive thing. You either play

13:43

the five of side with the lads who are sporty

13:46

quote-unquote and I went to an all-male school

13:48

or you you're not in the sport and you go over and

13:51

stand in the corner essentially so it's I

13:53

don't know maybe it was different for you lads

13:55

but that was my experience. We

13:57

played once a week It was seen as a tree.

14:00

seen as a bit of a dust, that was the attitude towards it

14:02

by the school.

14:04

We afterwards, it would never be the last

14:06

class, so afterwards you'd have to change back into

14:08

your uniform and resume class. Without

14:11

a shower. Without a shower.

14:12

And that was the way, and it was just seen as like go off there and

14:14

run around for, and that was it. Like

14:16

we, and look, we had me Hall of Martin in

14:19

here a

14:19

couple years ago with Joe, and you know,

14:21

the like P participation and the amount of P

14:24

that we have in this country for a

14:26

sport obsessed nation

14:28

is bizarre. I think that it needs to,

14:31

they haven't followed through on the stuff that he said

14:33

he would do by the way and we're absolutely going to go back

14:35

to that over the coming

14:38

weeks and months. It'd be interesting

14:40

to hear people's experience of that but I actually think that at

14:43

the heart of it is kind

14:45

of a weird, like it's only

14:47

volunteers who are the true spirit

14:50

of coaches and we must be

14:53

scared of professional coaches and coaching. I think that's

14:55

part of our culture. And I

14:58

think it

14:58

goes back a little bit to in history

15:01

to the band and all that kind of stuff. And I just

15:04

would

15:04

be interested in teasing that conversation out with somebody who knows a lot more

15:06

about it than me. But that's my work in theory and

15:08

somebody can shoot it down, no problems.

15:11

And inform me that I'm completely talking nonsense

15:13

about it. But I do feel like if we were

15:15

to inject higher quality coaching into all

15:17

of our sports earlier on, that the outcomes would be much

15:19

better.

15:20

I think you can see what

15:23

the impact of good coaching is on individuals

15:25

at any stage in their lives. We're still seeing players get much

15:27

better and better in the full-time

15:30

environment of the Ireland rugby team, that players who

15:32

look good at their provinces actually end up

15:34

being much better international players, which traditionally

15:36

doesn't happen. You don't traditionally get

15:39

better when you go into an environment

15:42

where the competition is higher. A

15:45

lot of people do respond to that, but

15:47

for player skill sets to be developed by the

15:50

senior international team as opposed to just that their provinces

15:52

is unusual, but it speaks to the quality of coaching.

15:56

And I think that that all kind of

15:58

feeds into the whole thing.

16:00

To answer your point, I don't think we'd be any better

16:02

if we had no other sports really. I

16:04

think that there would just be more competition without

16:06

proper organization, without a proper long-term

16:08

vision for what we were doing with these players. And we actually

16:10

benefit from having GEA background

16:13

in rugby and GEA background

16:15

in soccer in some aspects. And

16:17

we benefit from having soccer and rugby in our GEA players. That's

16:20

clearly evident from some players' finishing

16:22

ability in Gaelic football.

16:25

We're going to talk Gaelic football in a few minutes with Tommy, so I just

16:27

want to tell about what's coming up between now and 10 o'clock.

16:30

Tommy Rooney is going to join us at 8 o'clock for a look back on

16:32

the weekend's daily football and look forward to the league finals. Keith

16:34

Woods going to talk to us at 8.25 about the

16:36

state of the union at the moment. We've got sports news

16:38

at 8.45 at Cajamalani. After

16:40

that we have Derek McNamara in studio

16:42

looking back on the Six Nations. Sarah Dunlop is going to

16:44

talk to us about the league

16:46

finals and where we stand and what

16:48

we've learned so far from the league heading into the

16:51

championship which is nearly upon us. It's

16:53

nearly early April and football

16:55

show some look back. Is that Vinny and

16:59

Gav Cooney? Yeah.

17:00

Half-9? Yeah, okay. So I didn't necessarily agree with everything

17:02

the lads were saying, by the way, but he pays you

17:04

money, he takes the choice from Half-9. Well, sorry, on

17:06

Vinny, I'm not going to ruin

17:08

the segment for anyone who's about to listen to it, but it was interesting his

17:10

opinion on Jason Knight and how he was the odd

17:12

one out on the team the other day and how

17:14

he didn't quite suit that left side, which is

17:17

why the attacking threat on that side wasn't

17:19

as prevalent as it was on the other. It was just interesting

17:21

because otherwise, I haven't played so well. Sorry,

17:23

the way we got to that conversation about education

17:26

and all that, and PE in school and sport

17:28

of young people, for me actually makes

17:30

it all the more impressive what Stephen McKinney is doing

17:32

with this Irish site, because it is,

17:35

it's the best foot-potting site that we have literally

17:37

in the country, there are no other options because League

17:39

of Ireland the standard goes way down, and that's the best we

17:41

have from what he's done with the players available to him.

17:44

But there's still so much further to go. I

17:47

was looking here in the comments Nor Cajun, I

17:49

coach under 11 and fundamental movement

17:51

and speed skills always part of my session. Speed

17:54

is a skill and can be improved. Now

17:56

I agree with that. I think that like we should be we

17:58

should be obsessed with me

18:00

taking all of our sports faster and teaching

18:02

people how to run and teaching people how to sprint over

18:05

short distances because it would improve

18:07

literally everything. All of our sports would get better

18:09

by having people be faster and by having some athletics

18:13

training in schools for everybody would

18:15

be my first injection of that. It's funny, I did

18:17

a lot of cross country, like I was a reasonably

18:20

good 800 metre runner when I was younger and

18:22

like, but at a sprinting level,

18:24

even in school, you're just taken

18:26

out onto the track and you're told, run, run

18:29

that distance. You're never actually

18:30

taught how you can make yourself

18:32

faster. Like I was never sat down and said, you're

18:35

pretty, you're a pretty fast runner, but you could be faster

18:37

if you did this and that. I was never

18:39

told any of those things. I was just like, go out

18:41

and run. Oh, you're pretty quick. Go out and run. Like

18:43

I could have been so much better, but so many people could have been so much

18:45

better. Yeah. Well, I think like this

18:47

goes back to my bit about, um, we, we

18:50

haven't invested in the two

18:52

things, right? We've always been absolutely, uh, fascinated

18:55

slash obsessed with stadiums

18:57

and facilities and I

19:00

remember 20 years

19:01

ago the ESRI did a report about actually

19:03

the facilities in Ireland aren't that bad. It's a

19:05

dearth of coaching. We spend money on facilities

19:07

because everybody has a row. If

19:10

rovers get some funding from the government then the

19:12

local GEA club has to get funding

19:14

and they build separate facilities. It doesn't really

19:16

make that much sense instead of putting it

19:18

all into one state-of-the-art cleaning

19:20

facility but instead of just investing

19:22

all the money in facilities we end up ignoring

19:25

the coaching aspect of it. And so was

19:28

it where they volunteers who were actually probably

19:30

not qualified to tell

19:31

you exactly how to get better and things

19:33

are definitely improving and largely

19:35

off the back of individuals who are curious and who

19:38

are now because of the internet able to find out exactly

19:40

how do I make my kids run faster

19:43

when I'm training them over 100 meters, 200

19:45

meters, 800 meters and the quality of coaching

19:47

has vastly improved. But it's not because it has

19:50

been a massive government investment

19:53

in it.

19:54

Yeah, so you're right, I remember 20

19:56

years ago how you took out the Tiger, the Bertie people

19:59

and how much you put in.

20:00

into that and that goes to show, because we wanted to

20:02

showcase to the world what we could do, which just kind of goes

20:04

back to the whole inferiority complex

20:06

of the Irish mentality that we have to show that we're actually doing

20:08

really well and everything's good. I just

20:10

can't stop thinking about the way

20:12

we were taught football growing up and reading

20:15

Noah's comment there, it's encouraging to see that

20:17

that's what it's like now. I remember our

20:19

coaches when we were really young being obsessed

20:22

with results. Really? Obsessed.

20:25

And I do fight now over enjoyment. Yeah,

20:27

looking at it as an adult,

20:29

that it was just

20:30

a brag to fellow adults that

20:32

the team I'm coaching is doing really well. And

20:35

player development was not a thing. If you weren't playing well,

20:37

you were out of the team.

20:38

Obviously no explanation. And like you

20:40

said with your running, there wasn't

20:43

any like, look, if you could just fine-tune this, if you could do that

20:45

a bit more, I've noticed that when you caught it in your right, you're actually closing

20:47

the space in yourself. Once you went out on the left, there was

20:49

none of that. It was like 4-4-2, this is

20:51

the team. If you're not playing well, you're getting all

20:54

off. And there's no development. natural talent

20:56

that are as you don't have this. I almost feel like it's geographical,

20:58

like certain areas have a certain sport,

21:01

like there's people in the comments talking about playing

21:03

hockey with plastic sticks when they were younger. We all probably

21:05

did that in the indoor halls, but like

21:07

there are certain schools,

21:08

many of which are in South Dublin,

21:11

that are hockey schools and a lot of the

21:13

girls in that really successful Irish women's hockey team probably

21:16

came from a

21:17

certain number of schools. Whereas in

21:19

Monaghan, it was Gaelic football. So

21:22

if you play Gaelic football, those skills

21:24

were honed. But

21:25

if you were a runner or a soccer

21:27

player, maybe to a lesser extent, in Monaghan

21:29

it wasn't focused on. But different counties

21:32

have different

21:33

priorities, I guess, when it comes to sports. And

21:35

so were the skills, to Collins point, were the skills

21:37

honed or were you just trying to win? Gilly

21:39

football skills were honed. Okay, that's interesting. But were you not just

21:41

trying to win the local under 10 and the 12 and the 14 competition

21:44

and so on? Yeah. That's

21:46

not the honing of the skills, really.

21:48

The Arthur's book about Leimert-Carling

21:51

is a brilliant thing about the Academy where there's

21:53

a meeting of all the underage teams and I think

21:56

it might be the senior manager and

21:58

a question is...

22:00

basically the spirit of the question is like, whose

22:02

job is it to win here? And everybody puts up their hands.

22:05

And whoever's given the seminars, like, that's

22:07

not right.

22:08

That's not correct. Your jobs

22:11

are to produce players for this team. And

22:13

that's it. We don't want you to win, we want you to produce

22:16

players. And this is kind of a transformational

22:19

moment where they're like, and so then

22:21

the production line starts to get better

22:23

as opposed to, we're

22:26

cutting your throat to win this under 10, under 12, under 14

22:28

championship. And so I would argue that actually,

22:31

while there was a focus on the sports,

22:34

maybe they're the greatest coaches of

22:36

all time, Shane, and I'm doing a disservice

22:38

to the people, but what

22:40

you're talking about is hot housing, a single individual sport,

22:43

as opposed to the actual nuances of, to

22:45

Colin's point about the coaching. I think that's

22:47

the fundamentals, and it feeds down into

22:50

every sport. The counties or the clubs that are doing

22:52

this properly end up having the best

22:54

talent pipelines in Gaelic football and

22:56

hurling, And in soccer,

22:59

it's going to be very interesting to see how that evolution happens.

23:02

There was a massive reorganization.

23:04

Putting

23:06

the clubs, the League of Ireland clubs and

23:08

tying them to academies is beginning

23:10

to bear fruit. You can actually see that. I

23:13

think to your point, Colin, about everybody's

23:15

trying to win it, because there's leagues. There's

23:17

leagues very early on. And so there's a league tape which tells

23:19

everybody at the end. And again, most

23:21

of those leagues are just about having crack. But

23:24

there are some players who could actually end up playing

23:26

for a representative side or an academy

23:29

at League of Ireland team and hopefully

23:31

when they get there, they're not actually desperately trying

23:33

to

23:34

win every game, they're desperately trying to make the players better.

23:36

I don't remember the games being fun growing

23:38

up. The fun I had playing football was with my friends

23:41

in the local park when we were just able to play

23:43

and replicate what we were watching on TV or try to

23:45

and like pretend to be the players we were watching on

23:47

TV. My recollection of playing

23:50

organised football when I was younger was you trained

23:53

maybe once twice a week. You

23:55

did a few fitness drills,

23:57

saw a lot of running with no barlet or

23:59

feet.

24:00

enjoyment there. And then you'd play a game

24:02

at the last 15 or 20 minutes of the training session

24:04

which would be an hour and it would be two touch. And

24:07

two touch was the big thing. The coach never said you'd

24:09

just go out and enjoy yourself. Never

24:11

it was like, but I understand that

24:13

too because like you want to develop the player but the problem

24:15

was there was no development of the individual players and it was

24:17

like trying to get this cohesive unit

24:20

out there to play. And it was two touch was

24:22

the biggest like revolutionary thing that we did

24:24

as coaching. And then last

24:26

five minutes all in lads. It's sorry. Everybody

24:29

starts getting excited.

24:30

It is obviously like old. Your

24:32

stories are old. Things have changed.

24:35

I'm wondering. Exactly. Exactly.

24:37

I'm wondering how they. Things have changed. I'm

24:39

wondering how they. Well, they have the daily mile in schools. I know

24:41

we spoke to Frank Grady about this as well. That's an enjoyment based thing. Like how

24:44

many people even anecdotally do you know that do the park

24:46

runs? Like park runs have sprung up exponentially.

24:49

Like I know so many people my age and older

24:51

and younger who do the park run. I think to your point,

24:53

Colin, things have changed vastly in that

24:56

most

24:58

sports now use small-sided games and so

25:01

therefore touching the ball is more

25:04

regular. I think you'll also find, if you were to go,

25:06

that the number of balls that

25:09

teams have has transformed from the time when you

25:11

were a kid, I suspect, among one or two balls in

25:14

training? Yeah. Oh yeah, it was precious.

25:16

Yeah. Now there are big bags of cheap,

25:19

hand-stitched balls coming from abroad. that

25:23

most clubs have. And so the other thing is that,

25:25

again, the enjoyment thing

25:27

is definitely in all the sports that my

25:29

kids do, everybody's like, we want you to enjoy yourselves

25:32

as opposed to... It's come a long way.

25:34

It has, yeah. Rugby has touch

25:36

rugby and tag rugby for kids who are

25:38

maybe not physical enough or don't

25:40

enjoy proper rugby. But I

25:43

don't know if soccer

25:44

or GA have toned

25:46

down slash watered down versions of

25:49

sports to make them enjoyable for kids

25:51

who are maybe not athletic or not as

25:53

into the sport. So I think that's something we

25:56

can maybe look at making GEA and making soccer

25:58

More enjoyable for kids that they're...

26:00

maybe haven't the same

26:02

athleticism of other kids in schools. Well there's

26:04

other examples, Damian and Hani there in the comments, teaching

26:06

in Australia for 15 years, students learn about

26:08

sports psychology, do video analysis of their mechanics

26:10

in sports movements and provide improvement plans

26:13

all as part of assessment items. I

26:15

mean that sounds the world away of what we're doing in Ireland

26:18

but it like it should also be stated here and Kathleen

26:20

Mac is turning into our chat here,

26:23

the reaction to sport in general in most girls schooled told

26:26

to concentrate on studies because quote, that's

26:28

more important. And I've definitely heard that

26:30

as well. Concentrate on studies. Yeah,

26:33

like my wife would say the same. Like

26:35

we had a big conversation about sport

26:37

and how her nieces are very active now and

26:39

they play Gaelic football in Sligo.

26:42

And they're always playing matches like all

26:45

the time. Just with them at the weekend, they have three matches each

26:47

this week. Her own experience,

26:49

again, like Jair was saying, this is quite old, so we're going back 20

26:52

years, is I'll

26:54

let the boys play, don't

26:57

play sports because it's at the best

26:59

look, and instead focus

27:01

on school because that's really where you're going to end up. So

27:04

whatever about my complaints about, like I

27:06

wasn't, my skills are lack thereof,

27:08

weren't fine-tuned and therefore we were never going to make

27:10

it, at least we were able to play like, and

27:13

again, thankfully that's coming a lot. The

27:15

issue is what you said earlier, P was an hour a week?

27:18

Like Ireland have featured what, at the bottom

27:20

of so many schools? in Europe

27:22

in terms of hours per week done spent playing

27:25

PE or actively getting

27:27

kids out in school. So that's the issue. We're

27:29

a weird country. We are a weird country. We're

27:32

a weird. We are a weird country. We have single sex schools and that

27:34

is absolute nonsense. It's completely anachronistic.

27:36

It doesn't make any sense. And you can see in

27:39

mixed schools where if the girls aren't getting

27:42

equal access to sport, it becomes an issue

27:44

and then the girls end up when they fix it because

27:46

that's how

27:48

this happens. Anyway, 087, 9180 is

27:50

the what's up number if you want to get in touch

27:52

you can leave a comment on YouTube youtube.com

27:54

forward slash after all and as I said earlier you need to be subscribe

27:57

to our YouTube channel in order to leave a comment.

28:00

Who is the team that we're going to pick

28:02

to play against Greeks? What changes are you making?

28:04

Have you both picked sides? Do

28:05

you want to go first, Colin? Yeah, well... Still

28:09

deciding. I would notice

28:11

that Philip Quinn was admiring

28:13

the impact already of Jean O'Shea

28:16

on the defensive unit against France. Well, that was quick.

28:18

Wasn't it? Two sections. This

28:20

guy must be the greatest coach of all time. Couldn't be anything to do with Stephen

28:22

Kenny, could it? Nothing. So,

28:25

it's very hard to change the back five. And hang on,

28:28

I thought that we were shied defending after

28:30

the Latvia game.

28:31

Turned out the Latvia game didn't matter that much because it was

28:33

only friendly, right? Can we all

28:35

agree on that now? Yeah. That

28:37

like everybody losing their minds over the

28:39

Latvia game is like, well,

28:41

maybe they're less up for a friendly

28:43

against Latvia than they are for a qualifying

28:46

match where there are points on offer because they're

28:48

professional athletes and they're used to preseason

28:51

friendly,

28:52

competitive match. These are not the same. You

28:54

can't fake it. Like, you can't fake motivation

28:56

or enthusiasm for a match. And I haven't

28:59

said that the performance against Latvia wasn't terrible,

29:01

considering how many players probably wouldn't ordinarily

29:03

be in, probably either of the teams we're about to pick.

29:06

Like, do you want to go first? What's your team for Greece? Yeah,

29:09

Malumbi for sure, midfield. So, sorry, same

29:11

back five,

29:12

same goalkeeper. We're assuming fitness and

29:14

everybody's available. Yes, everyone's available, fit, ready to go, raring.

29:17

Which obviously, by the way, won't be the case. Of course.

29:20

So, this is an ideal world. My

29:23

Lumbee player is midfield. Yeah,

29:25

Colin. We'll play Colin. Smallborne

29:28

in for me.

29:29

And then up front,

29:31

Aunt Benne was fantastic. I

29:34

don't know whether I'd start Ferguz. I probably would just

29:37

about start Ferguz. I mean,

29:39

look, Ferguz is amazing. But we've had a long time.

29:42

What's your shape though? What's

29:43

my shape? It's 5-3-2. Okay.

29:47

Yeah. So basically what I'm trying to say to you is

29:49

I'd have Jason Knight out

29:51

and we'll Smallborne in.

29:52

And I was very, very, very tempted

29:54

to play Mikey Janssen, but Akbene is such an

29:57

unbelievable threat up front, Yeah. Ferguson

29:59

is the hottest person.

30:00

that we've had since Raticin and Damian.

30:02

My team would be essentially the team that started the other night except

30:04

Mikey Johnston in for night.

30:07

I think like and it's only partly because

30:09

he plays in hot weather in Portugal Mikey Johnston, he's ready

30:11

for Greece but I just

30:13

think he's brilliant. Can I just add

30:16

a note of caution to this? Does everybody know how Greece

30:18

did in their Nations

30:21

league? On beating at home? Do you

30:23

know they won five out of six games.

30:26

They

30:26

were against Kosovo, Northern Ireland and Cyprus.

30:29

I don't think We would have won five out of six games against Cosfo,

30:32

Northern Ireland and Cyprus at the moment. Really? No,

30:34

absolutely. When was the last time we won five out of six

30:36

games?

30:38

Cosfo, Northern Ireland and Cyprus isn't a

30:40

terrible group. I mean, how

30:43

do we do against Armenia? Yeah, yeah.

30:45

Beat them, Liet. Would

30:47

we beat Northern Ireland twice

30:49

if we played them? Oh, Tahit is not the biggest

30:52

issue here. It's Greece themselves. It's going to

30:54

be a really tough game. Now one thing

30:56

that just got me a little bit hopeful, was

30:58

that maybe, Greece are already guaranteed a playoff

31:01

for the Euros. And you

31:03

were detailing the pathway

31:07

to us yesterday and a nice 400

31:10

word piece that you wanted me to read out on the show column

31:12

just to open the kimono a little bit. Will someone

31:14

immediately find out how to do this? Yeah,

31:16

okay. Yeah. Ooh,

31:19

so a five. Anyway, were you in the office yet

31:21

the other day when Phil asked us who, do

31:23

you know who the Greece manager managers. You

31:25

know who the grease

31:27

manager is? This

31:29

is remarkable. Dab is ass? Keep talking

31:31

there Shane. Well I'll tell you who the grease manager is. Oh I know

31:33

who it is. It's quite remarkable. Do

31:36

you know who it is? Former Chelsea midfielder

31:39

also played for Spurs, was manager

31:41

of Sunderland in the Premier League. Good boy. Good boy.

31:43

Yeah. He was the grease manager. It had an extra layer of influence. We should get

31:46

him on. Yeah.

31:47

Yeah we should.

31:50

I noticed a key trace, you made the point about Mikey

31:52

Johnston yesterday the reason that he would

31:54

be reluctant to start him against Greece is

31:57

the heat and we want to retain the ball whereas John's

31:59

going to take on his...

32:00

and chances of losing the ball

32:02

without possession, it's gonna be a very, very long day. He's in

32:04

Portugal, in Braga, in Vittorio

32:06

de Gomare, he's ready for it. So he'll keep the ball. So

32:08

he's used to it. I did find it strange that

32:11

we just didn't give him an awful lot of the ball against France,

32:13

because when he came on the pitch, he did that lovely turn

32:15

inside and took three French players out of the play

32:18

and then passed out right. Yeah. I

32:20

don't think he got the ball after that. Now, is there a world in which

32:23

your good technical, skillful players can be asked,

32:25

don't try and have the killer ball every

32:27

time. You just buzz around here and

32:29

like,

32:30

you know, you be the,

32:33

be like one of the Dublin footballers,

32:35

back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and then

32:38

like after 70 minutes we start, look, I

32:40

actually think a draw away to Greece is

32:42

a perfectly legitimate result

32:44

in this whole, oh, we gotta win these two games, otherwise

32:46

it's a failure. It's like, that's not true, that's not true. This

32:49

is a long qualifying campaign. Let's

32:51

wait and see. We have France and Holland back

32:53

to back in September, right,

32:55

and that's ultimately gonna end up being a really

32:57

important window, where if it was possible

33:00

for us to get a point in France,

33:02

which might not be ridiculous,

33:03

and then we've got the Dutch

33:05

at home and who knows what state they're in, and they're

33:07

also gonna be guaranteed a playoff. So do we have

33:09

those two games? For the European in four days, yeah. Those

33:12

two games, the Ryder Cup and the

33:14

Rugby World Cup all around that time. Yeah,

33:16

yeah. The Rugby World Cup, I think, doesn't

33:19

really get good until the end of

33:21

the group stages and then that's into October.

33:23

So, right, OTBAM

33:26

with Gillette Ladd, got the ultimate chever, your money back, The sports

33:28

breakfast show from off the ball.

33:48

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33:56

Rugby. You still have to get

33:58

it done at the time that it really counts

34:00

which we have not managed to do. It's the first

34:02

time that you could genuinely say

34:05

that there's a chance with lots

34:07

going right for us that we could be World Cup

34:09

champions. Subscribe

34:11

to the Rugby Stream on the O2B Sports

34:14

App now. Can I ask you why?

34:16

Why would he come back? Why would they want him back? Why

34:20

would you want him back? Yeah, he's 41. He's

34:22

two and a half years after he's retired. still

34:25

one of the best players that's ever played GAA.

34:28

You don't think Stephen Clokston, okay,

34:30

even if he's not at his absolute peak of 10

34:33

years ago, do you not

34:35

think he would add something positive to that dress-up?

34:38

I don't doubt that.

34:40

I guess I'm wondering what's

34:42

driving it. I'm going to answer the question. You

34:44

could try to put a negative spin on this. I don't see

34:46

how you could put a negative spin on this. There

34:49

is a negative spin to be put in. Well, here we go

34:51

with you. It's like it's live

34:54

from clarity. Mel's of desperation.

34:56

First of all,

34:57

like one of your best players, you're

34:59

not. You're not going back. No. Yeah.

35:03

When they're not going great, they already

35:05

have two goalies, two good goalies in

35:07

fairness to them. Yeah, they have an injured fair enough,

35:09

but he'll be back. They're bringing back

35:11

a 41 year old.

35:13

You're thinking, where are the leaders in that dressing room to take

35:15

that on in the last two and a half years rather than

35:17

have to revert back?

35:19

Like I know they brought back many they brought back

35:21

McCaffrey brilliant additions and everything

35:23

But now to go back to Clarkson as well It's

35:26

like you're kind of almost flogging a dead horse

35:28

rather than kind of moving on with everything You know, they

35:30

could have they could have gone and and

35:33

got new leaders to take that group forward but to

35:35

go back I think it does

35:37

smell a bit of desperation in my opinion No,

35:40

not to say that he's not going to be he could walk

35:42

straight into goals and play but

35:44

the fact that they've had to Go back for him.

35:47

Oh Isn't it isn't a great sign? Should

35:49

we agree? If you're sitting down with Eddie Farland,

35:52

say the ideal thing is that

35:54

the Jim Gavin team kind of came to the end. that

35:56

you have the course move on and we

35:59

blow it.

36:00

30 young players coming up that

36:02

they can carry on and win all our unless that's the ideal

36:04

scenario But the reality is that probably hasn't

36:06

happened So if you're Jimmy

36:09

you put yourself and Desi Farrell shoes and Stephen Cluxham

36:11

makes himself available for selection again

36:14

I would be amazed if any manager in the

36:16

country turned down says no, thanks Tommy

36:18

Rooney. Good morning to you Morning,

36:20

Jera morning Shane How are

36:22

things? What do you really think about Stephen Cluxham coming back?

36:24

Oh Oh,

36:27

I'm I'm hearing the fence either

36:30

either thorn here am I am I quiet

36:32

enough it come on sitting I'm

36:35

not a fan to not a perch in its offense and Look

36:40

at there's two sides to it in my

36:42

opinion. I happen

36:44

to Be I was

36:46

definitely one of the first people who wasn't at the game who

36:48

got who got this information sent to them Jim McEnany

36:51

from Relowed Footballer tagged me in a tweet.

36:53

I was in the middle of my right my Sligo lead from

36:55

halftime report and I just went

36:59

WTF Clocks in

37:01

his back in the press box and everyone

37:03

around me was like what what are you talking about?

37:06

And it was split press box was split heard

37:09

Joe on with Patty Andrews his

37:12

Chris Camaro moment the moment that might make him as

37:14

a pundit and I

37:17

I think Paddy's incident reaction was that Joe

37:20

was joking and then he realised that he was talking to Joe and that

37:22

Joe wouldn't make light of such matters, you

37:24

know, so I thought I

37:27

was interested in listening to James and Paddy. The comments

37:29

are definitely split, quite a polarising topic

37:32

you could say, but I

37:35

don't know, there's two sides of it. He's obviously one of the

37:38

most,

37:40

actually I'm going to say he's one of the most inspiring

37:43

leaders, But I have no idea what his leadership is

37:45

like, because you know so little about him. He

37:48

parked that for a second. A 41-year-old coming

37:50

back after two and a half years to me. I don't

37:52

know.

37:53

Go on, say it. Smack your desperation, Tommy. Go on. No,

37:56

I didn't say that. No. That's

37:58

what James was saying. Yeah I failed

38:00

to see a negative of this. Like you have

38:02

someone like Stephen Cluckston, as Paddy said

38:04

there, who makes himself available to Desi.

38:07

And what's Desi Farah gonna say? Like

38:09

he's not saying- That's not how it works. That's not like he's not

38:11

like here, and it's not wanna come back. They have to reach

38:14

out to him and say- They have to go for want it. Well, they have

38:16

to reach out to him and say, we have a crisis here, can you help us

38:18

out? And he's like, yeah, no problems. And so a

38:20

couple of things. That footage

38:23

from the Dublin dressing room, that was from last weekend,

38:25

was it? That is on like

38:27

a quarter of a million views. Have you seen this? It's

38:30

like the- Do you think I'm running out of the dressing room? No, no,

38:32

there's, the lads are singing in the dressing

38:34

room and Cluckson's in the background just

38:37

going about his business ignoring the music. Have

38:39

you seen that? Haven't seen this video? It's- That

38:42

one. There's a Korma Kostlow one. No, I haven't. And

38:44

it's Kostlow and Fenton and there's some kind of loud

38:46

music being played and they're happy

38:49

in the aftermath of victory and

38:52

Cluckson is managing to somehow ignore

38:54

this going on in the background. It's just a very interesting

38:57

team dynamic.

38:59

Okay, well, lots of opportunity while you're in the area. I'm gonna try

39:01

and see if it's from recent or not.

39:04

My point is largely Shane's point

39:06

as well, that there's a goalkeeping crisis. Desi Farrell,

39:09

Dubb's TV released their post-match-

39:11

Goalkeeping crisis. David O'Hannan's been exceptional.

39:14

Sorry, hang on a second. Let me finish. Just

39:16

let me finish, right? Dubb's TV

39:18

released their footage of the interview

39:20

with Desi Farrell in the aftermath of the game at

39:22

the weekend, and he said, Evan

39:25

Comerford is working his way back. He hasn't

39:27

played any football this year and

39:29

he's working his way back and we expect him to be back

39:31

later in the championship. So who's

39:33

the backup? If there's a black card, a red

39:36

card or an injury, so

39:38

Evan Comerford, who I think is their actual starting

39:40

goalkeeper, right?

39:43

They have an exceptional goalkeeper who's played really well but you

39:45

can't have one goalkeeper going into the championship. That's

39:47

like, that is rule 101. And

39:51

we see goalkeepers getting black-hearted sent

39:53

off much more than we used to, everybody

39:55

has a backup goalkeeper. So there's an absolute crisis

39:58

where I think... They're Michael Sheehy, who's...

40:00

not around club finals and potentially

40:02

hasn't hit the standards that David Hammond and

40:04

Evan Conburn has hit when he stepped in but he is

40:06

he like he's essentially their backup

40:08

goalkeeper like. But now Cluckson's their backup goalkeeper

40:10

do you feel better as

40:13

a manager? Absolutely and again I'm

40:15

only trying to give both sides of the coin here but

40:19

there is a couple of questions right and the

40:21

fact that it was kept a secret and Desi saying he was

40:23

back training for a couple of weeks

40:25

that's not possible. It's remarkable

40:28

in this movie. There's no way he

40:30

was back. There's no way. I'm sorry.

40:32

Initially I was like, okay, that's amazing. There's no way

40:35

he was back for a couple of weeks. That stuff

40:38

doesn't stay secret for a couple of weeks. You

40:40

might get a week of keeping that in house.

40:42

So this came together very,

40:44

very quickly, I'd say. There's no way he

40:46

was back a couple of weeks. I am speculating

40:48

there, but I just don't see how that's possible to keep that under

40:50

wraps. They're not training inside. It's

40:53

funny how he played against me

40:55

development team in a challenge match and it's

40:57

on the back page of the end of this morning So, you

40:59

know certainly in

41:13

There's

41:18

no way he's coming in to be first choice. They're not

41:20

parachuting back into the team

41:22

Philip McMahon and the Indo podcast are saying to start him start

41:25

him this weekend But your course is gonna say that they're

41:27

like he's he's a he has soldiered

41:29

with him forever all the former players all

41:31

think that they're their their teammates

41:34

are still as good as they were at the absolute peak

41:36

if Burner broke him was to come back and do

41:38

a few training sessions about stick him in the team But

41:40

actually you have to moment has passed. No, you

41:42

have to put him in the team You absolutely do not

41:45

put him sorry He is not getting in the team. If

41:47

he is as good a goalkeeper as he was two

41:51

years ago when he left, you

41:52

have to start Stephen Cluckston. Don't you?

41:55

I agree with you Tommy, David O'Hanlon has been brilliant and his kick

41:57

out stats have been fantastic. He's got better.

42:00

each game. But Stephen Cluckston

42:02

to Stephen Cluckston, you put him in the team. Like

42:04

he's not, he's not there as a leadership

42:06

all. Yeah. He's going to sit in the bench and inspire all the

42:08

younger players around him. Screw that. Inspire players

42:10

by being the starting goalkeeper,

42:12

playing the big matches for Dublin. If I'm Desi

42:14

Farley, I'm starting them in the Division Two League final next weekend.

42:17

No. Like I know he won't. I know he won't. But it's

42:19

not the right thing to do on any level because it completely

42:21

undermines. It's totally unfair on David O'Hannand. I get that. But

42:23

it's not, it's not just unfair. Life is unfair. But

42:26

it's not. It's the wrong thing to do. Why it's

42:28

the wrong thing to do. When was the last last time he played football at this level.

42:30

It's such a long period ago. A couple of years ago. And

42:32

so there's no way he's still the same player. And if he is

42:34

the same player, that can emerge over the next five, six,

42:37

seven weeks. And at that point, you've got a competition.

42:39

He's not a mobile, he's not a Rory Beggin or an Ethan Rafferty.

42:41

He's not a, he does

42:42

exactly

42:45

so he's a, he has a relative level of fitness, but he's not

42:47

a goalkeeper that, yeah, I'm sure his reflexes

42:49

and skills are still honed.

42:51

He maybe isn't as good as he was two years ago, but he can't be

42:53

far off. Well, he could be far off. We

42:55

don't know. And here's the other thing. The

42:57

team is rounding into something. So all

42:59

you're doing here is giving yourself an insurance policy. If he plays

43:01

significant minutes, I will be shocked, like

43:04

legitimately shocked. So would I. If

43:06

he starts and there's no other injuries. I think. Can

43:09

we just before we go

43:11

move on from this, like

43:12

there are unanswered

43:15

questions about why Stephen Clarkson stepped

43:18

away two and a half years ago.

43:20

Sure, it's part of his personality, but that leaves it open

43:22

to discussion. Why did he leave? Was

43:24

there a problem?

43:25

What were the issues.

43:26

And now once he's back,

43:29

why haven't Dublin been able to make up the

43:31

leadership gap that was there before?

43:33

They still have eight or nine generational talents.

43:36

I did a piece preview in the mead and Dublin game

43:38

a couple of weeks ago. Like to say

43:40

Dublin are in transition is laughable. Of

43:42

the 2019 Leinster final, where

43:44

me or Dublin met mead by 19 points to four

43:47

Jim Gavin's last Leinster final, 12

43:49

players, 10 starters,

43:51

mania McCaffrey

43:53

play that day make that 13 now

43:55

so even clocks in his back who's saying they're in transition

43:57

they're not in transition they've like But who's saying this?

44:01

of, most people are saying that when Doblin lost four

44:03

games last year, they were saying that when the Dobbs

44:06

were stuttering over Claire

44:08

and Claire this year. I don't, I don't, I

44:10

haven't heard anybody, I would like

44:12

consider very credible saying that

44:15

they're a team in transition. They're a team coming off their peak.

44:17

They're a team who are absolutely past their peak.

44:20

They're no longer peak Dublin. That's different from being

44:22

in transition and they're looking for something.

44:24

I don't think Clarkson's going to play significant minutes. I don't think this

44:26

is that big a deal to be honest. Well, The

44:28

leadership gap, right?

44:30

They have,

44:31

it turns out, two brilliant goalkeepers. Hanlon

44:36

and Comerford. Comerford's injured. The under-21

44:38

keeper, the under-20 keeper, who apparently they wreck quite

44:40

highly, is also, it looks like, injured.

44:43

If you have an opportunity to bring somebody back, I would

44:45

actually, I would say Tommy, bringing him

44:47

back answers the questions for what happened two and a half

44:49

years ago. Whatever disagreement

44:52

that was speculated at the time,

44:55

Feral and Cluckson

44:57

have obviously managed to mend bridges. Is

45:00

that not the end of that?

45:03

Or Cluckson said, I'm coming back.

45:05

And Desi said, okay.

45:09

I mean, I don't know about that. But

45:12

we don't know. That's the thing. Look

45:14

it, I'm putting it this way. It's either

45:16

a master stroke or it's all gonna

45:18

blow up. And we won't know for a couple of months.

45:20

I'm leaning towards it being a master stroke. I'm just trying

45:23

to put the other side of the other side. Okay, okay, but in that scenario

45:25

where he says he's coming back, if you

45:27

don't want him back, what do you say? Oh,

45:29

thanks very much, but no, thanks Right

45:34

Sorry, how did I look at I'm not sure that's a

45:36

stylus. Oh, how does it blow up? I look what

45:39

what how can this go wrong is what I'm

45:41

wondering, you know How can bringing Stephen clockstone

45:43

back in well backfire if you I would

45:45

walk down again in three or four weeks, you know

45:47

Yeah, there's a we just don't

45:49

know there's a couple of signs like I

45:52

I would have thought that there's been times where the development

45:54

team have dropped their

45:56

armor 2021 semi-final

46:00

against Mayo.

46:02

Connor Callahan is visibly frustrated with his teammates

46:04

in the field that day, visibly

46:06

frustrated with the style of play. Obviously

46:08

so little gets out from the camp, so we're speculating.

46:11

Kieran Kerekenny,

46:12

that hand pass to Cormac Gosselow at

46:15

the back post,

46:16

why is that pass not being given?

46:18

If, you know, there's times

46:20

where they are the greatest team with the

46:23

most remarkable mentality, but

46:25

that has now eroded over the last couple of years. and

46:27

you're looking at them at times thinking,

46:30

that wouldn't happen in a bad club team.

46:32

No, you should have told me at GAA

46:34

club level, any club level, that move,

46:37

where you pass the ball across, when you're one-on-one

46:39

with the keeper, for someone to tap it in,

46:41

is so well-practiced. That

46:44

is one of the most obvious moves in Gaelic football. Goalkeeper

46:47

can't stop it.

46:48

They had it again at the weekend against Laud, they both threw a load of goal

46:50

chances when it should have stepped the ball to the post.

46:54

Jim Gavin managed a group

46:56

of egos incredibly well

46:58

and there were so many egos in every

47:00

Intercounty squad.

47:01

He managed them incredibly well

47:04

and it's just gotten a little loose and

47:06

to me

47:07

I don't know but this could mark the sign of something

47:09

a

47:10

little more chaotic coming back. Okay, okay.

47:12

I mean if it is chaos I

47:15

am looking forward to the storylines

47:18

and the play manifesting that. Connor

47:20

says that's semantic. He changed that. Let me finish this.

47:23

Gavin did bring back, Gavin did bring back Connelly as well so. Yeah,

47:25

exactly. And anybody he needed to to do

47:27

whatever he needed to because they decided

47:29

that they were going to do whatever it took to win. Connor says,

47:31

that's semantics, Jerry. Moving on from peak Dublin is

47:34

transitionary, whether a transition to peak

47:36

Dublin or crapped Dublin can't say they're not in transition.

47:38

That's not true, Connor. Like the point about

47:40

a team in transition is a quarter of the team

47:43

or half the team are replaced by players who

47:45

we don't know yet if they're going to be at the same level. To Tommy's

47:48

point, the vast majority of their best players

47:50

from that great period will still be playing in

47:53

the key moments

47:54

This season one last point on this the

47:57

key moments this season are not going to happen

47:59

for Dublin

48:00

until the group stages and even then

48:02

they're more than likely going to be in a really easy

48:04

group and so there'll be one

48:07

and a half matches where there will be key

48:09

moments and their key moments are actually still

48:11

going to not come until an Ireland quarterfinal. By

48:14

which stage we'll know whether or not Cluckson

48:16

is going to play significant moments, right?

48:18

Yeah and come for coming back by the last stage. Yeah

48:20

maybe, maybe. I did an interesting

48:23

one and it gave me something to talk about so we'll

48:25

leave it at that. Yeah. But James

48:27

is obviously stirring. He's like, I can see a little

48:30

something to drive a wedge in here that the

48:32

dubs another little weakness. Yeah.

48:35

It was interesting that the word that

48:37

the word directly out of clarity was what

48:39

James said. But I also do think that a lot of people

48:41

feel like that.

48:44

I they

48:46

do. They do. I just I don't I don't see

48:49

it. And

48:51

okay. Yeah. No, I

48:53

know. I'm a therapy session for We can

48:55

have up that we can have polar opposite views on a topic

48:57

like this. Absolutely. Um,

48:59

but I'm on the fence just

49:01

for direct. All right. Okay.

49:04

You're good at that. Uh,

49:06

are

49:08

we going to move on to the league

49:10

final? Yeah, we can do. Yeah. I nearly forgot. Sorry.

49:12

Cluckston Cluckston has taken all the publicity, but like

49:15

go away mail four o'clock. Poor Joyce.

49:18

I'm going to be there at four o'clock. I love the mail

49:20

tried to get it switched and he's He's like, nope. That

49:23

happened. I've seen, I've seen, Rory in armour makes the point,

49:25

if David Clifford goes one on one in a low iron final against

49:27

Dublin, he'd rather not face Cluckston. I

49:31

think Clifford back himself, lads. Yeah, I think

49:34

it doesn't really matter who he's going up

49:36

against. Keep it low. Is Cluckston really going to be able

49:38

to get that

49:38

low at 41 years of age? I

49:41

wonder if he's been doing his own testing and he's realised

49:43

that his figures... Probably. First

49:45

team in Cluckston. He's one of the most remarkable characters we've ever seen

49:47

in the game. He's definitely been doing his own

49:50

training regime waiting to come back. I do. Like

49:53

you mentioned on the part, like Stephen only retired with

49:55

like his body and bits in January

49:57

of 2008.

50:00

He gets on a mountain bike and somehow

50:02

builds his knee up to a stage where Mickey

50:04

Hart calls him back in because the club Formed three weeks

50:07

for the all-iron final

50:09

and like that

50:10

Was deemed to be absolutely insane at

50:12

the time three weeks for an all-iron final care even

50:15

brought back Galvin at the same time I think and

50:18

Stephen was the first up in that day. That's her own

50:20

one and when comes on after 20 minutes So

50:23

this has happened before I feel to yeah, okay,

50:26

and

50:27

what about Galway and And so

50:29

under the radar they're now beep beep beeping very

50:31

loudly. Everybody's like, hang on, I was taking this team. Yeah,

50:35

I think this is going to be a really, really good game. And

50:38

counter to what some people are saying, I actually

50:40

think both teams

50:42

are really going to go for this. And it's going to be a cracker.

50:45

I think both teams need to win a little bit of

50:47

national silverware as much as they can. Breccini

50:49

has the stat in the end of today that Mayo's record

50:51

in their last 20 All Ireland

50:53

and league finals is two wins, two draws, 16

50:55

losses. Goa is isn't much better. They've

50:58

won three out of 15 finals. So these

51:00

are two teams that, you know, can win

51:03

when it comes to conduct, but when it comes to the national

51:05

stage, they need to deliver. So I don't think

51:07

either Joyce or Max, they are going to take a backward step. It's

51:10

also very interesting to really jump over these

51:12

pieces in the examiner and Karen McKeever speaking at

51:14

the Ulster launch,

51:16

our mad coach that there

51:19

is no point really in winning the Ulster Championship anymore.

51:21

Similar to what we've been saying here for a couple of weeks, that

51:23

there's actually more more of a reward to lose in

51:26

the provincial

51:28

and get into the All-Ireland series, have those couple of

51:30

weeks of a break. You know, as Brady's quote, what

51:32

was it, I wouldn't take it on the 9th, but

51:34

if I woke up on the 10th, I'd be happy enough. Yeah.

51:38

Yeah, I do. So I think the, I think the final

51:40

is marginally more important than getting to a kind of

51:42

one. We were talking a bit about

51:45

Kelly and how you

51:48

play up against Clifford. We

51:51

were talking to Ken Johnson about this and he's making the point, that's

51:53

not gonna be how teams play against

51:55

Clifford. If you're gonna be Matt Martin Clifford, your job is to Matt Martin

51:57

Clifford and not go running forward. itch

52:00

the Dublin Kerry game last year and how

52:02

Dublin did a little bit of that and what happens is

52:05

the ball gets turned over and in transition it goes back into

52:07

Clifford and Clifford kicks a point and you're like, oh,

52:09

that's not great. So maybe

52:11

teams, maybe we haven't learned too much yet about how teams

52:13

are going to try and lock down Clifford when it comes to again

52:16

the all-around quarterfinals, semi-finals and finals.

52:20

Yeah, I'd say David Clifford has mastered the art

52:22

of

52:23

knowing when to peak and I think he'd be good

52:25

to go. Like last year, David Clifford lads

52:28

must have had three different injuries across the space of

52:30

the sixth one. We didn't see David Clifford at full fitness

52:32

last year. We haven't seen him at full fitness so far this year.

52:34

So I'm not sure what the answer is yet to stop

52:36

in David Clifford. I think Keene's right. Go

52:39

away if they want to get the best out of Sean

52:41

Kelly,

52:42

probably cannot put him on

52:44

David Clifford. I'm not saying that he can't do

52:47

it, but Kelly is so important

52:49

to go away going forward as he is in the fence.

52:51

And he always has been that way since we started the football

52:53

pod any more and picked out a young Sean Kelly at

52:55

cornerback at that stage as the key to

52:57

go always attack. So yeah,

52:59

look, that's going to be a cracker. And I'm actually

53:02

really looking forward to

53:04

seeing it. Like it's going to be, it's going to be a really

53:06

good game of football. But 1981, the last time Galway

53:08

won the National League, like for them,

53:10

this is, this is huge because they at least have

53:13

the ease

53:15

with which they can wait until iconic semi-final may were

53:17

in action a little bit sooner. So like everything

53:19

points for me towards Galway taking

53:21

this far more seriously than Mayo.

53:24

I'm not saying Mayo don't want to win a national title look

53:26

what to do.

53:27

James and Patti fell to the same way in the football this week Shane. I

53:29

actually disagree. I actually think Mayo

53:31

need to take it seriously. I think they need to put

53:33

their foot down on the Galway throw

53:35

here before they get ahead of themselves. Mayo

53:38

made the mistake in 96 and 97

53:41

of losing the Galway before there was a knockout championship

53:43

in the first game in 1998. And look

53:46

what happened. Galway won the All Ireland

53:48

in 98, won the All Ireland in 01. And

53:51

you know, that momentum was also for Mayo. So if

53:53

Max Deas has any bit of momentum right now and it was interesting

53:56

I listened to James Warren a couple of weeks go say that.

53:59

You can't take the foot off the- the gas got into a league final. Did

54:03

they not do that last year? No, we were looking at that performance last

54:05

year. Well, he was saying that they didn't and

54:07

they were just beating fair and square on the day. But they weren't

54:09

just beating their annihilator, right?

54:12

And certainly the feeling was that

54:15

maybe in the last two league games Mayo could put the

54:17

feet up a little bit and maybe that's where the momentum and

54:19

the wheels came off a little bit. Like, Manon

54:22

obviously got the benefit of it last week. Mayo made ten

54:24

changes, ten eleven changes and Manon pulled off

54:26

that great escape. I don't think

54:28

that McStay can do that again. I don't think he

54:30

can afford to do it. Momentum is such a funny thing in sport.

54:33

I think he really has to go for go away. And

54:35

if

54:36

you're going to meet him again in a couple of weeks, if you're going to get

54:38

by a rest common, so what? You go for it. But there

54:40

is an element of never give a sucker an even break. Like

54:42

they have played big games against

54:45

go away. Why

54:47

was the game in Crocker that time?

54:49

Conic fun. Yeah, why was that in Crocker?

54:51

Was it it? Was there something? I

54:56

think Michaela Park was being redeveloped. I can't remember

54:58

exactly. There was a couple of different reasons why it was in Crocker. Was

55:00

it to do with Crocker? I don't know. It

55:02

was to do with COVID. It was the one that was in the game. That

55:05

was when Shane Walsh got injured. And

55:08

that was turning point of the game. Yeah,

55:11

Finnerty got injured and, obviously, with

55:13

a clash, I remember at the time thinking, hmm,

55:15

wonder how innocuous that was. Walsh got body

55:17

slammed to the ground and injured. And

55:20

it was definitely a feeling that Goa were coming,

55:22

but male bullied them. And

55:24

it was like a slight on Goa. And if

55:27

you could reassert your

55:29

alpha dog status, it would be no

55:31

harm doing it twice in the space of six

55:34

weeks or five weeks, however long it's going to take for them to... It's

55:36

even less than that, isn't it? If they were to do this,

55:39

do Ross Common next week and then do them again.

55:41

Three weeks. Three weeks. That

55:43

would be a big statement. Certainly it might

55:46

be difficult to calm down the province.

55:50

But yeah, it's the Canak

55:52

1-2-3 in the league, so I

55:54

think Canak is where it's at at the moment.

55:58

I do think that may have been a one and go. away

56:00

are absolutely flying.

56:02

That's not to say that they won't get knocked down a peg or

56:04

two later in the championship and it's very early in

56:06

the year obviously but yeah it's a

56:09

big one.

56:10

Are we time for one more now? Yeah go for it quick. Okay.

56:14

I'm not sure if you heard the post match from Leechman

56:16

Sligo the last day but Andy Morin's

56:18

last answer. Yeah. His last answer

56:21

was, I'm not going to speak for Tony

56:23

McIndee here but Sligo will have to go to Crow Park next week

56:25

and it actually helped her preparation that we've lost today.

56:28

Obviously Leechman wanted to get promoted but they lost. They

56:30

then jump on a plane to London on the Thursday

56:32

to play championship. It's not fair after playing

56:34

in Crow Park, they had to play on the third jump

56:36

on the plane on Thursday to be a champion. It's not fair. Not fair in

56:38

the players for prep or for injuries. When I was in college

56:40

back in the 90s all the talking studies was about burnout

56:43

and now we're absolutely flogging our young and elite players

56:45

again with games upon games. Someone has to shout

56:47

stop. I hope that with the level of injuries now to

56:49

Tom Parsons and these guys step up and say we're

56:52

not letting our players go through that again in 2024. Now there

56:55

might be a quick fix of this.

56:56

I suspect Andy might be talking a

56:59

bit more that there needs to be more than a couple of weeks break

57:01

and there needs to be a bit more room there and we're seeing it with

57:03

the cigarettes in the bay as well that the Intercounty calendar is

57:06

so condensed. But you're

57:08

seeing already the talk coming through that

57:10

it is depth by it hasn't got for the provincial championships.

57:13

And I didn't think it would come

57:15

this quickly with this this series. I thought

57:17

this was given the championships another lifeline but

57:20

Foger is calling this morning has certainly said

57:23

that the mood music around the provincials has changed. Oh,

57:25

oh, yeah. Who

57:27

could have possibly predicted that, Tommy? It's

57:31

like what we were saying a couple of weeks ago, but you know,

57:33

that's certainly and Kieran McKeever from Armagh

57:35

saying the same thing today, the incentive to win the Ulster

57:37

Championship no longer exists. And

57:40

you know, looking

57:43

at those teams at the weekend, like Lee

57:45

Trump and Sligo

57:45

are both going to have tough

57:48

games against London and New York regardless of

57:50

how London's league went.

57:53

know I'd be worried when we're here in Little from New York

57:55

I know that a couple of effects go all the cares and bobs.

57:58

They always have a couple of... Crackers

58:00

up their sleeve. Yeah, like for each

58:03

one cycle. It's gonna be a tough one It's a tough turn around

58:05

for our ma even with two weeks and

58:08

for Mayo particularly facing her as common, I

58:11

just think may I have to go for it and Try

58:14

and win their matches like and if they get beaten and they get

58:16

a couple of weeks off in kind of they would take

58:18

it All right, Tommy good stuff.

58:21

Thanks a million. Thanks. Let's say it's

58:23

morning Thanks a million Tommy really give us some thoughts

58:25

on the weekends getting football action and previewing

58:27

next weekend's you can hear more of Tommy's goodness

58:30

on the football pod, make sure you search for the

58:32

football pod and subscribe to it in its own stream.

58:35

It's 28 minutes past 8 o t b a

58:37

m with Gillette labs, get the ultimate shave

58:39

or your money back neon night edition available

58:41

now. Good night. Keith Wood

58:43

is with us. Keith, good morning to you. How are you?

58:45

I'm pretty good, Jack. How are you? Yeah, I'm

58:47

good. I'm good.

58:49

Big time European knockout rugby

58:52

is back. The club season is, it

58:54

can feel long and interminable, particularly in this

58:56

part of the world where we vaguely know what

58:59

teams are going to make the playoffs from very early on luckily

59:01

kind of put a bit of a surge on but this is where

59:03

it really counts this weekend proper

59:05

knockout rugby.

59:07

Yeah I mean it kind of all counts

59:10

but which makes it

59:12

awkward for everybody but yeah this is

59:14

something I think that most of rugby

59:16

supporters will be looking forward to

59:21

sort of post main season games,

59:24

knockout, rugby, huge

59:27

history, new types of history, you

59:29

know, monster going down to play in

59:32

South Africa, which

59:34

I'm still not entirely comfortable with, I have

59:36

to say. But there

59:39

is. I

59:41

think it's a lovely point for excitement

59:43

coming on the back of the Grand Slam. You

59:45

know, there's been a huge hype from a couple of weeks ago,

59:47

and now there's the opportunity for

59:50

a little bit more hype again. Yeah,

59:51

we'll talk about all that stuff and we'll

59:53

talk about the nuances of the

59:56

available players and team selection. but

59:58

just generally you wanted to chat about the

1:00:01

state of the game at the moment. We've obviously been having these conversations

1:00:03

intermittently over the last number of years. What in particular

1:00:05

has you think about it at the moment?

1:00:08

Just look, it's funny, we had just

1:00:10

when Covid started, we ended

1:00:13

up having a conversation. We're trying to fail for a

1:00:15

bit of airtime because there was no live sport. And we

1:00:17

got a chance to to ramble our

1:00:19

way through through everything. And

1:00:23

just looking, I think, partly

1:00:25

from some of the issues that have happened across over

1:00:28

in the UK, over the last period of time. So

1:00:31

with that huge vote, the

1:00:34

potential or the strike from Welsh

1:00:37

players, the

1:00:38

disappearance of wasps

1:00:41

and Worcester from the Premier to

1:00:45

reducing

1:00:47

salary caps to a whole

1:00:50

change now that seems to be happening with a raft

1:00:52

of players from England moving to

1:00:54

France and to

1:00:57

Japan, the game just seems to be making

1:01:00

that huge change again because

1:01:02

the money for the game now sits in France. There

1:01:05

is the mooted change to

1:01:07

this world

1:01:10

competition, this world

1:01:12

competition every couple of years.

1:01:14

It

1:01:15

just seems to be filling more rugby

1:01:17

into a place where there seems to be too much rugby

1:01:20

already. And I

1:01:21

I feel as if

1:01:24

the amount of pressure that's

1:01:26

been put under clubs

1:01:29

and players to actually survive at the present

1:01:31

moment of time is pretty tough. So I think

1:01:33

it's a really, really nervy time

1:01:35

for the game actually. Is it greed? Is

1:01:38

it money Keith? Is there just no thought

1:01:40

put to the players' welfare?

1:01:42

Yeah, is it greed?

1:01:44

Is it money? Do they both have to be

1:01:46

the exact same? I don't know that they do. I

1:01:49

think it is money because when

1:01:52

you're looking at survival for clubs,

1:01:54

that makes it very, you know, very difficult.

1:01:58

Cubs have to make a profit.

1:02:00

to survive. That's the nature of

1:02:02

it. And people often kind of bypass

1:02:04

that idea as if the players have

1:02:06

been squeezed too much. But

1:02:08

I know that from a lot of the younger

1:02:10

players in the UK, they're being offered

1:02:13

very small amounts of money. And it's

1:02:15

looking at the difference between the balance

1:02:18

of what's

1:02:20

worked the risk and what isn't. And

1:02:23

I think I've mentioned a couple of times before that

1:02:27

the clubs can't really afford to play the players

1:02:29

the amount of money they've been paid and the players

1:02:32

can't really afford to play the game without being paid

1:02:34

that amount of money. So we're

1:02:37

caught in that sort of catch-22 situation

1:02:40

where I

1:02:42

think there's too much rugby

1:02:44

being squeezed into a season and I think that

1:02:47

becomes part of the issue. So One

1:02:49

of the conversations that they've had in the

1:02:51

UK is if they can

1:02:54

get it down to 10 teams,

1:02:58

then the players, the clubs will get their

1:03:00

players for all their matches, and there

1:03:02

won't be matches on over the

1:03:05

international weekends. I think that's a

1:03:07

viable alternative. I

1:03:09

do think that that's where the game has to

1:03:11

go, but having to have squads

1:03:14

of 55 or 60 people isn't financially

1:03:16

viable. Yeah, I mean,

1:03:18

to go back to some of the points that we would have been making at the time, I

1:03:21

think that the players unions are, I

1:03:25

really can't understand how, given

1:03:27

the

1:03:28

experience profile of the people

1:03:31

involved in the players unions, they're not more

1:03:34

powerful and they're not better advocates

1:03:36

for the players. If the players had a limited

1:03:38

number of minutes or games

1:03:40

that they were allowed to play every season, then

1:03:43

everything would kind of automatically fall into

1:03:45

place. If you're only allowed to play 30 games a season

1:03:48

and the international team has you on call

1:03:50

for 6 or 8 or 10 of those, then

1:03:52

you've got a 6 or 8 or 10 game window, however

1:03:54

you want to spread it across the year, and the rest of the time you

1:03:56

can play club rugby, And then all of a sudden,

1:03:58

everything literally... falls

1:04:00

into place because the players have decided that

1:04:02

we're going to put our bodies on the line for a certain amount

1:04:04

and that's it. But there's no

1:04:06

sense coming from the players that they're ready to go. I mean,

1:04:09

the Welsh players I think might be a touch

1:04:11

paper for players

1:04:13

realizing that they do have genuine power.

1:04:15

This product doesn't exist without them and they're the ones

1:04:18

who are suffering the consequences of long-term injuries.

1:04:21

Well, they do and they do have the power. The

1:04:25

point is are they willing to play less matches

1:04:27

for less money. And, you

1:04:30

know, it's like none of this kind of

1:04:32

sits down really comfortably. But also the

1:04:34

game has so many different

1:04:36

shareholders within it. So you have

1:04:40

the ERC on one side, you've the

1:04:43

unions on the other side, you've international

1:04:45

rugby, you have the EPC

1:04:48

or

1:04:51

you know, they're all different competitions, you've

1:04:55

the World Cups. So they all vie

1:04:58

for different pieces of the

1:05:00

pie. They own their own rights within

1:05:02

those situations. Trying

1:05:05

to get a blend of those to fit

1:05:07

into that number makes it incredibly

1:05:09

difficult. And that's where it comes. And

1:05:13

when you're then looking to try and have

1:05:15

bigger markets, which I'm not

1:05:17

necessarily in favour of and I haven't been,

1:05:20

you then end up with a situation where

1:05:22

you've European cup matches in South

1:05:24

Africa. And there

1:05:26

may be financial reasons for that to

1:05:28

be the case, but with teams having

1:05:31

to fly up and fly down there for

1:05:33

a period of time, you can't tell me that that fits into

1:05:35

player welfare pretty well. And we're

1:05:39

at the business

1:05:41

end of a long season

1:05:45

and the season seems terminably

1:05:47

long, you know, and it's going to go then to

1:05:50

summer tour and training

1:05:52

camp and then a World Cup and

1:05:54

you wonder where does it end at any stage really.

1:05:57

So I don't think they've got there.

1:06:00

the idea of the world competition seems to make

1:06:02

sense,

1:06:03

but I still think everybody is trying

1:06:05

to have their piece of the pie

1:06:07

within that. And I don't know

1:06:09

that that necessarily fits because you

1:06:12

want to see your best players on the field more often.

1:06:15

The game is very, very physical. You

1:06:17

do need to have enough strength and depth,

1:06:20

but the viability then comes to

1:06:22

whether that strength and depth can

1:06:24

be 50 or 60 people. And

1:06:27

like, how do you manage is that for a

1:06:29

four and a half million salary cap or five

1:06:31

million salary cap in the UK? Well, you end up

1:06:33

playing kids who are unprepared for the

1:06:35

actual vagaries of the professional

1:06:38

sport and then they're endangered. Like

1:06:40

it's very difficult to manage. I

1:06:42

did want to ask you one thing about the

1:06:44

post-ground slam conversation because

1:06:46

there's just a little bit of stuff bubbling

1:06:49

up that we would have seen in messages

1:06:52

and just anecdotal stuff as

1:06:54

well about how The team needs to be more

1:06:56

representative of the four provinces and obviously

1:06:58

it's chicken and egg. If Munster are

1:07:00

being 28-0

1:07:03

at home down against Glasgow

1:07:06

at the weekend then they can't really make

1:07:08

the argument that those players should have been playing

1:07:10

for Ireland in the six nations. But longer

1:07:12

term, how do we make

1:07:14

sure that the player pathway is

1:07:16

better so that there are more Conakt

1:07:18

and more Ulster players and more

1:07:21

Munster players on the team?

1:07:23

Yeah, look, to be honest,

1:07:25

I think it fits

1:07:26

and has always fit into a cycle.

1:07:29

And it

1:07:30

doesn't have to be more representative

1:07:33

of it has to be the best players. I

1:07:35

mean, this is not

1:07:37

a

1:07:38

sports tough,

1:07:40

you know, the better players who play in

1:07:43

better teams get a better chance to play

1:07:45

for their country. It doesn't matter what

1:07:47

country that is, actually. And if you look at

1:07:50

it, and I've looked to that for the last number

1:07:52

of years.

1:07:53

Leinster have been pretty

1:07:55

much, you

1:07:57

know, flying very, very high. They have

1:07:59

the place.

1:08:00

style that

1:08:01

fits into the national style incredibly

1:08:04

easily. So if you are looking

1:08:07

for the next player on the block, it's

1:08:09

often easier to pick a Leinster player because

1:08:11

they're more up to speed and you need that

1:08:13

to be the case.

1:08:15

The responsibility goes on the provinces

1:08:17

to be able to deliver more. I always

1:08:19

think it's going to be difficult for comics because

1:08:21

they don't have

1:08:24

the depth of infrastructure

1:08:26

that the other provinces have had, but

1:08:28

they have been building on it over a period of time.

1:08:31

They are getting more pairs into the squad more often.

1:08:35

It's,

1:08:37

you know, it goes down to a whole variety

1:08:40

of different conversations we've had over the past

1:08:42

and, you know, that conversation

1:08:44

of Victor Madfield discussing with Eoin

1:08:47

van Grand that Leinster

1:08:49

could get all the best players. Well, they

1:08:51

get all the players that come out of the private schools

1:08:54

at a higher level of preparation than some of

1:08:56

the other ones. But the onus then goes on

1:08:59

the other provinces to be able to

1:09:02

counteract that

1:09:05

benefit that is in Dublin and

1:09:07

Leinster and not copy it because

1:09:09

it isn't something that can be copied, but they have

1:09:11

to think differently. They can't bemoan the fact. They

1:09:13

just have to do it better. And so there

1:09:15

they have been building and I know they have been in Ulster.

1:09:18

They definitely have in Munster, building

1:09:20

different structures to try and maximize

1:09:22

the potential of the young guys that are coming through.

1:09:25

And you do want as many players playing for

1:09:28

a province that

1:09:29

come from that province, you do because

1:09:32

it gives a build that sense of identity

1:09:35

that a fan and supporter wants

1:09:37

to follow. So I do

1:09:39

think it's happening, but it takes a period of time. And

1:09:42

I would say that in the last 10

1:09:44

or 15 years, it didn't happen

1:09:46

quickly enough. And so no, it

1:09:48

is happening, but it still is going to take a period

1:09:51

of time come through. But I can

1:09:53

say with comfort watching it from an Irish perspective,

1:09:57

that when I I look at the under 20s play

1:09:59

and I look at. the

1:10:00

spread of those players and

1:10:02

I look at the quality of the guys that are coming through,

1:10:04

you know that it's beginning to pay dividends

1:10:07

and you just want to see it pay dividends faster

1:10:10

and quicker but it can only happen in the speed

1:10:12

it can happen. It is narrowing that gap

1:10:14

is it Keith, in your opinion, Glenster and the

1:10:16

rest? Well,

1:10:18

I also think Glenster have been in a position

1:10:23

of strength because of the quality of the

1:10:25

players that they've had through. It isn't just a number

1:10:27

of the players, it's the quality of the players.

1:10:31

It is about bridging the gap, but I know

1:10:36

it's kind of living in the

1:10:38

past a little, but if you go back 15,

1:10:40

20 years, Munster were in the ascendancy.

1:10:42

It does go in a cycle. At

1:10:45

that stage, Munster couldn't

1:10:47

even – they wouldn't have counted

1:10:49

the countenance losing to Leinster, which

1:10:53

is interesting when you see what's happened over the last

1:10:55

number of years. But Leinster have

1:10:57

had the upper hand. I would

1:11:00

still expect Ulster to come much

1:11:02

more to the fore. And I think they've still

1:11:05

got a young team, a pretty

1:11:07

exciting team that have been a bit

1:11:09

bruised this year. I thought this was the year

1:11:11

that they're going to go an off-road

1:11:13

further and they

1:11:16

absolutely still could. And They

1:11:19

end up having the biggest game

1:11:21

that they've had for a while at the weekend. So,

1:11:25

but look, I am convinced

1:11:27

of it being cycles. I'm not, but

1:11:30

when you have almost a perfect storm like Leinster

1:11:32

have at the moment, they have strength

1:11:34

and depth all over the place and

1:11:36

they are a huge power

1:11:39

in the game. But

1:11:40

I don't know that that goes down to there being a huge

1:11:42

amount of

1:11:48

lack of ambition in the other places. It

1:11:51

hasn't been that at all. But I don't think the processes

1:11:53

have been right. I think they're getting right now. And

1:11:57

I think it'll take a bit of time for it to work.

1:12:00

that Monster have to go down to South Africa, play the

1:12:02

Sharks and the Stormers. What did you

1:12:06

make of last weekend? Like 20 unanswered

1:12:08

points for Glasgow in that first half was disappointing

1:12:10

from a Monster perspective or, you

1:12:12

know, is it turn around-able, I guess

1:12:15

is the question.

1:12:16

I think it is and I think it's

1:12:19

quite interesting. If we go back to the start of the

1:12:21

season, we would have looked at a Monster team

1:12:24

that didn't seem to have a huge amount

1:12:26

of structure, off the pace.

1:12:29

It took a while for Roundtree to

1:12:31

bet in. He's a good, strong, honest

1:12:33

coach who doesn't shirk any comments

1:12:36

that's thrown at him in an interview. And I

1:12:39

know he doesn't shirk it on the field either, in

1:12:42

terms of conversations with the players.

1:12:45

But I think where Monstrey got

1:12:48

to it was pretty,

1:12:49

pretty phenomenal from their start, actually,

1:12:51

and I think with the squad.

1:12:54

So I would

1:12:56

have said consistently not

1:12:58

to talk them down too much at the start,

1:13:01

not to talk them up too much in the middle. They

1:13:04

are a work in progress. They're also

1:13:06

a team that when you get to playing good,

1:13:09

really good teams, they need to be

1:13:11

as close to full strength

1:13:13

for them to win.

1:13:14

And I don't know what it was. The

1:13:17

attitudes anything wrong at the weekend. It

1:13:20

was lackluster. It was a poor

1:13:22

game. But I

1:13:24

always think that you have to look at a

1:13:26

team that doesn't have the strength of depth

1:13:29

as like Leinster have. When you look

1:13:32

at Monster, you say you want to see them when they're

1:13:34

full 15 out, full 23 out

1:13:37

because that's when you can see everything

1:13:40

because it doesn't paper over the cracks, but

1:13:42

that's what the Monster team is. There

1:13:45

isn't the strength and depth for them to consistently

1:13:48

have very high levels of performance.

1:13:50

I thought Glasgow played well,

1:13:52

but bullied a monster

1:13:54

pack and that's

1:13:56

not good enough. And

1:13:58

look, I think they were ready. affected half time

1:14:01

and they perform much better in the second half but

1:14:03

not nearly good enough really for

1:14:05

what you'd expected this time of the year. So look,

1:14:08

they have to get their confidence up,

1:14:11

squeeze into some seats and fly down to South

1:14:13

Africa, play a

1:14:14

game which

1:14:15

you've no real idea how

1:14:17

the sharks would go because they've been totally up

1:14:19

or down. One thing

1:14:22

I would hope to see this weekend is a big

1:14:24

crowd. That's one of

1:14:26

the elements that is required for any of

1:14:29

this South African adventure to

1:14:31

work. It needs to bring more people to watch

1:14:33

the game. It needs to be something

1:14:35

that's essential. I don't know whether that's going to happen or

1:14:37

not. We've been hearing some rumours that it will

1:14:40

happen, that those knockout

1:14:42

ties will draw big crowds, but as you say,

1:14:45

the proof will be in the

1:14:47

crowd shots, assuming they're real. What's

1:14:52

success then over the next couple of weeks from

1:14:54

Munster's perspective, given that

1:14:56

This is the start of a new era and they're trying something different

1:14:59

and notwithstanding everything you've said is not

1:15:01

an excuse, it's an explanation for where we are. How

1:15:04

will they look back on this season if what

1:15:07

needs to happen over the next few weeks from the go? Yeah,

1:15:09

that was good.

1:15:10

Well, I think if we were to make a sort of correlation

1:15:12

to last year or the last few years, actually,

1:15:17

what they're looking for in big

1:15:19

matches are big performances.

1:15:22

And that kind of sounds like a bit of a

1:15:24

fudge of an answer because everybody

1:15:26

would be happy with a bad performance if they won. But

1:15:30

what had happened over the last number of years were

1:15:32

in some of those very big games, Monster

1:15:35

failed to fire a shot. And

1:15:39

that cannot be allowed to happen. The progression that

1:15:41

has happened this year is a little bit more inventiveness,

1:15:44

a little bit more movement in

1:15:46

the back line. Different

1:15:50

things happening than a kicking game, right?

1:15:52

So it has to be that. Let's be

1:15:54

mixture, of course, but it has to be it has

1:15:56

to be that.

1:15:58

with the players that they...

1:16:00

can they can put onto the field on

1:16:02

Saturday, I think they can go and win

1:16:04

that game by having a very

1:16:06

high level of performance. So

1:16:08

that's what I'm looking for. I mean, that's what I'm looking for.

1:16:11

But if they go down and become conservative,

1:16:14

and don't attempt to play

1:16:17

and

1:16:17

lose, that's,

1:16:20

that's what I think the fans have kind

1:16:22

of have failed for the have

1:16:25

have been upset

1:16:27

over. The idea that

1:16:30

you can get to those big games and not

1:16:32

really try and get strangled by some

1:16:34

of the other teams, that's been the progression that

1:16:36

the Monster supporters haven't seen and

1:16:38

they want to follow their team. So for

1:16:40

that, they need the minimum level

1:16:43

of what happens on a Saturday, which is a really big

1:16:45

performance. Yeah. Okay.

1:16:47

One quick question on the other game involving

1:16:50

the Irish provinces in the the Champions Cup, lent

1:16:52

their heavy favorites against Ulster, but

1:16:56

almost as big a turnaround from Ulster

1:16:58

over the last while as there has been from Connacht, where Ulster

1:17:01

looked like a basket case, like everything that they were trying

1:17:03

was failing when something

1:17:05

happened. They obviously

1:17:08

got everybody in, had a conversation and completely

1:17:10

turned their season around. And they actually

1:17:12

have all of their best players playing for them

1:17:15

at the moment, particularly in the back line. And they

1:17:17

look damn good. Well,

1:17:18

this is the most interesting game of the weekend

1:17:21

and it's interesting not from a Leinster perspective

1:17:24

because I still expect them to have a big

1:17:26

performance and play very well but from

1:17:28

Ulster because the unspooling

1:17:30

of Ulster came

1:17:33

when they lost to Leinster earlier in the season and

1:17:35

they were so far ahead and suddenly

1:17:37

everything went wrong in the second half and from

1:17:39

then on in they lost a chunk of games afterwards,

1:17:41

lost all their confidence, all their shape, all

1:17:44

their aggression, all their self-belief almost.

1:17:47

now have eat it back again. So, but

1:17:50

this is like returning to the scene of the crime.

1:17:52

So whether this one will actually work for them or not,

1:17:56

I think this is the

1:17:57

biggest game in the Tale of Plate.

1:18:00

in the last three or four years because

1:18:04

if they were to lose or

1:18:06

lose heavily or lose their confidence

1:18:08

in this game and that

1:18:11

could be That could be very

1:18:13

destructive for us there. So there's

1:18:15

an awful lot riding in this game

1:18:17

Keep we'll leave it there for now. Good stuff. Thanks

1:18:19

a million.

1:18:20

Cheers gents. It's Keith. We're giving us those there

1:18:22

It's 848 this morning If you want to

1:18:24

get in touch you can leave a comment in the YouTube stream youtube.com

1:18:27

forward slash off the ball you need to be subscribed you can get us

1:18:29

on Twitter at off the ball am call

1:18:31

Milan is with us call the morning to you how are you that's

1:18:33

how's going oh well it's a quiet

1:18:35

day that's very much what we're talking about Scotland

1:18:38

and Spain after last night that's the

1:18:40

big news from last night's international matches and

1:18:43

I don't know if you saw the comments of Roger after the game

1:18:45

where he's called the Scottish style

1:18:47

of play rubbish and

1:18:50

so he's moaning about that you know Scott

1:18:53

you're entitled to do what you want to do to try and

1:18:55

win matches I think you know in terms of style

1:18:57

of play and stuff like that I mean that's the love of this

1:18:59

our part of the game Scotland won 2-0 yeah and

1:19:02

we're full value for it created a number

1:19:04

of other chances in which they might have scored Spain

1:19:06

at one maybe good chance and one

1:19:08

other chance where it keep right to make a save yeah

1:19:11

and so it wasn't close

1:19:14

like it's got my dominant

1:19:16

show two goals again four and

1:19:18

two two left footer goal yeah I thought the finish

1:19:20

for the second one in particular was good because sometimes

1:19:23

you see midfielders coming onto the ball like that and they'll

1:19:25

try and smash it where he's kind of a little bit more

1:19:27

measured and finishes it nicely.

1:19:30

The pitch as well was a talking point at Hampton Park

1:19:33

where there was talk that maybe Scotland didn't

1:19:35

prepare it as well as they might have otherwise. If

1:19:38

you're playing a team under the technical ability of Spain you're of

1:19:40

course going to chop up the pitch a bit. Why wouldn't

1:19:42

you? There could have been a bit of arrogance on the part of Spain

1:19:45

as well. They beat Norway in their first match 3-0 and

1:19:47

then they made eight changes for last night's match. Obviously

1:19:51

they're not in this space that they were a decade ago

1:19:53

where they were obviously top team in the

1:19:55

world at that time in playing lovely

1:19:57

football. sure

1:20:00

where they're heading in terms of the future but like I mean they probably

1:20:02

will get out of that group anyway nor we were held to a draw by

1:20:04

Georgia last night but for Scotland too from

1:20:06

two they're in a brilliant position and Hamden

1:20:09

is a really difficult place to go for all those top teams

1:20:11

but it's their first win over Spain in 40 odd years.

1:20:14

All of these results have a knock-on

1:20:16

impact on us in some way do we need Scotland

1:20:19

or Norway? This is off the top of my head but Scotland

1:20:21

or Norway whoever is the second seed we

1:20:23

need all the second seeds basically to finish in

1:20:25

the top two at Cascade down for

1:20:27

us to get a playoff. It's a convoluted

1:20:30

process, it's a little bit complicated. You kept Cabana

1:20:32

on actually in the screenshoot. Yeah

1:20:34

it's true and I

1:20:37

think Scotland at Wales won last night as well. They beat

1:20:39

Latvia by Goldtenil which wasn't overly convincing

1:20:41

given Ireland beat them at spot 3-2. Yeah.

1:20:44

So gold margin again. But

1:20:47

yeah, like you have to give Steve Clarke a lot

1:20:49

of credit I think as Scotland manager. They look to really

1:20:51

have got it together there. Took

1:20:53

them a while to get there. them a while but it probably

1:20:55

shows give them

1:20:58

time, give a manager time and he can do it and

1:21:00

there seems to be a real

1:21:01

union between the supporters and the team

1:21:03

as well in terms of the connection. Yeah,

1:21:06

yeah. And they do have slightly better players than us at the moment

1:21:08

you would have to say.

1:21:09

Yeah, I think McTominay and Robertson

1:21:11

obviously as well are two key, key players.

1:21:13

McTominay needs to move to Newcastle seems to be the

1:21:16

club that's consistently linked with Scott

1:21:18

McTominay. He's not going to get game time anymore at Manchester

1:21:20

to a large degree. I know that if Europa

1:21:22

League and FA Cup to contend with this season still, so we might get

1:21:24

a few games. If he's, if Newcastle are interested in

1:21:26

him, he should go there straight away. Yeah, he's only 26. I

1:21:29

have only 26, I think. There's no way that

1:21:31

Newcastle are going to be signed, Scott Matamone, as

1:21:33

something that they're, they think is going to catapult

1:21:36

them into the Champions League next season, or Champions League contenders,

1:21:38

or title contenders.

1:21:39

So he'd be very lucky if that happens. It's

1:21:43

a team in the bottom half of the Premier

1:21:45

League who is more likely. Really?

1:21:47

Do you all think he has the

1:21:49

quality level to help Newcastle to

1:21:51

win a title? Well reaching another level, he's

1:21:53

very good. He

1:21:56

kind of misunderstood because he was part of that Mac Fred

1:21:58

link up under Ollie gonna that was cast

1:22:01

castigated consistently and

1:22:03

probably rightly so some of the performances weren't were

1:22:05

great at all when those pair were the set of defensive

1:22:13

like he's almost become a laughingstock

1:22:15

figure at United now not quite to the level

1:22:17

for him at the base last night he'd make a big impact he's

1:22:19

pretty he's a very good footballer yeah I think

1:22:21

he would help Newcastle all right

1:22:24

what else there's couple big games tonight in the women's

1:22:26

primary division here at home at leaders p-mount against

1:22:29

Shelburne the reigning champions that came at 745. Bohemian's

1:22:32

D.L. Orway, Shamrock Rovers, Wexford Eudes, Atlone

1:22:34

against Galway and Treaty United versus

1:22:37

Cork City the other games this evening.

1:22:39

The Irish trickery is in action as well they're just getting

1:22:41

underway in the next few minutes at nine o'clock against Bangladesh

1:22:43

that's in the second of their T20

1:22:45

internationals and as I say that one

1:22:48

gets underway at 9 Ireland last the opening match

1:22:50

in that T20 series on Monday. Katie McCabe and Champions

1:22:52

League action tonight as well for

1:22:53

Arsalan second leg against Barn. Yeah, they're

1:22:55

one ill down on aggregate after the first

1:22:57

game, so that game is tonight at eight as well. So

1:23:00

yeah, it's all happening, lots of football and

1:23:02

then we're just saying the Premier League stuff

1:23:04

will return, so it's relentless.

1:23:07

It's hard to get back into the Premier League I find after an international

1:23:10

break sometimes, just to refocus

1:23:12

on the whole thing. Most of the people at Claire's point yesterday was a very

1:23:14

good one that they shouldn't be called the international break. Technically

1:23:17

that's when the internationals aren't on a break at all, that's

1:23:19

when they happen. It's semantics but

1:23:21

look it's a point worth

1:23:23

bringing up I think. Yeah I think the Premier

1:23:25

League starts with Bang. Yeah it always does this.

1:23:27

Manchester City against Liverpool half past 12 and

1:23:30

Saturday just to remind you to jolt you back

1:23:32

into action. Alright good stuff

1:23:34

thanks for that Karl. Derek McNamara's in studio

1:23:36

next with the final word on the men's Six Nations. Michael Verney

1:23:38

talked to Joe last night about Kilkenny's

1:23:41

new era.

1:23:42

The modern and the old methods a

1:23:44

lot of you know a lot of what Brian Cody you

1:23:46

know did for the 23 seasons he was in charge

1:23:49

there still remains just a bit of

1:23:51

a modern mix to it. They're

1:23:53

striking is a bit crisper in around that 25, 30 hour

1:23:57

pass where they're trying to build. There's

1:23:59

more runners off. the shoulder now than there was before

1:24:01

and in the likes of Billy Drennan, Timmy

1:24:03

Clifford, David Blanchfield, Derek Harker,

1:24:06

there's a nice sprinkling of new faces

1:24:08

coming in and that's not to mention Teager Reid,

1:24:10

Adrian Mullen and

1:24:12

a couple more that will be back in time on. Cody was missing

1:24:15

for the weekend as well. So they're in a pretty good place, particularly

1:24:18

depth wise. There's a fair depth to

1:24:20

that Kilkenny squad and you'd

1:24:22

have to say after being

1:24:24

beaten by Tipperary in the league and being beaten

1:24:26

pretty comprehensively, Derek is bounce back

1:24:29

fairly spectacularly. And if you're looking at a

1:24:31

team that will not care about winning,

1:24:34

you won't be worrying about whether he's gonna

1:24:36

go 100% for the league or not. They will go hammering

1:24:39

tongs for the league because they see it as a great opportunity

1:24:41

to get silverware. Cody always targeted the league,

1:24:44

always tried to get silverware. So in that

1:24:46

sense, I think you're set up for a humdinger of a final.

1:24:48

More hurling a little bit later on in the show with Sarah Dunnegan.

1:24:50

In the meantime, Derek McNamara of Reactrugby.com is

1:24:52

with us to put a tin hat on Ireland's Grand

1:24:54

Slam glory. What are we doing today, Derek? Yeah,

1:24:57

I suppose it's nice to

1:24:59

kind of take a step back and look back at what happened

1:25:01

during the competition from an Ireland

1:25:04

perspective and maybe to look

1:25:06

a bit at Scotland as well,

1:25:08

considering they're gonna be in our pool

1:25:10

in the sixth nation in the World Cup and kind

1:25:12

of take a look back and see what

1:25:15

were the coaching staff doing? Were they doing the right things?

1:25:17

And how we are

1:25:20

looking at that is that we take a

1:25:22

kind of overall look at it at all the stats and all

1:25:24

the analysis all the days and all the grades

1:25:27

and we can take a look at it and say, all right, well, who

1:25:30

were the top guys that were left on the pitch the most during

1:25:32

the Six Nations? You know, who are the guys that were

1:25:35

played the most or had the, you know, most

1:25:37

amount of impact on the game during

1:25:39

the whole competition? And

1:25:41

we've thrown together a few slides just to kind

1:25:43

of highlight what happened in the different

1:25:45

teams and give an idea of Ireland

1:25:48

and the players that played the most

1:25:50

amount of time. So here

1:25:52

we have the top five players who played so

1:25:54

we have Andrew Porter who played 90% of... When

1:25:58

you say top five, what top... Five

1:26:00

what? So minutes played. So they,

1:26:02

they, these are the guys that played most or were

1:26:04

on the pitch most more than anybody else. So

1:26:07

we had four players that played every single minute of every single

1:26:09

game. That was James Ryan, Josh Fander-Flier,

1:26:12

Mark Hansen and James Lowe. And then the

1:26:14

fifth player that was behind them was Andrew Porter, which

1:26:16

is quite unusual for a title prop

1:26:18

to play 90% of the overall

1:26:20

minutes that we're playing to play. But

1:26:23

the idea is here is we're trying to take kind

1:26:25

of everything into consideration, you not

1:26:27

just the players that played, but what they

1:26:29

did on the pitch and where they ranked compared

1:26:31

to all the other players. So here we have,

1:26:33

we've kind of split it into a bunch of different

1:26:36

levels of information, but we have team

1:26:38

contributions. So that's their contribution

1:26:40

as an overall player onto the game. So

1:26:42

this is what their involvement. We also show

1:26:44

the ranking. So Andrew

1:26:48

Porter was third of 13 loose

1:26:50

head props. So he ranked quite high. James

1:26:53

Ryan was number two of the second row five.

1:26:56

So basically this is based on the individual

1:26:58

jersey number. So

1:27:01

we split those second row fours

1:27:03

and second row fives into each specific

1:27:06

jersey number. James Ryan came

1:27:08

up second out of the 10 players that played

1:27:10

second row, with Josh Van Der Fleer,

1:27:12

Mack Hansen and James Lowe ranked number one of

1:27:15

the players in their positions. And

1:27:18

the point here is that Ireland

1:27:20

were able to leave their

1:27:22

top players

1:27:23

in those positions on the pitch

1:27:25

for more time than any other teams

1:27:28

in the competition. And it's obviously- That's

1:27:30

credit to the coaching staff. Yeah, and this is obviously

1:27:32

very important when it comes to players

1:27:35

like turning

1:27:36

the backs, right? Is there any element

1:27:39

where you want to be able to freshen up your

1:27:41

most dynamic players like- so Josh

1:27:44

Rander player playing every minute of every game, we're all delighted when

1:27:46

Josh Rander player gets the ball because we know exactly it's going

1:27:48

to be 100%. It's going to be perfect.

1:27:50

He's like world player of the year. So, but

1:27:52

is there any element of you where you're like, you wouldn't like him now rest 10

1:27:55

minutes at the end of the game? That's

1:27:57

what the other 14 players in the picture for it are.

1:28:00

them. Yeah, and like so like

1:28:02

when we break down individual teams

1:28:05

and so when

1:28:07

we take the so Ireland had

1:28:09

say 32 players all together that played in

1:28:11

the Six Nations. They you know they they blooded 32

1:28:14

players all together which is you know

1:28:16

same as France, Scotland had 33

1:28:19

England only had 30, Wales had 35 and

1:28:21

Italy only had 30 as well. So, Ireland

1:28:23

are coming right in the middle. So I know of

1:28:25

the kind of top 22 players that played about 35.

1:28:28

So basically

1:28:30

we're looking at when we take all of the 32 players, you know,

1:28:34

how many of them had a significant impact

1:28:36

on the pitch and the match and 22 of them equated

1:28:39

to 91% of all things that happened on the pitch.

1:28:42

And so there was a nice, you know,

1:28:44

it's a nice number of players compared to France. So

1:28:47

France once bloated 32 players, but only 20 players, 95% of

1:28:50

their work rate was done by the 20 players.

1:28:56

Okay, so they were aligned on a smaller group of... Correct, yeah, yeah.

1:28:59

And this is what we're trying to show here. And Ireland had

1:29:02

a larger number of players,

1:29:04

but had that work rate spread

1:29:06

out amongst the 22 players. We are 32 players.

1:29:10

You've explained this before, Derek, but when you

1:29:13

talk about team contribution, so So a quarter

1:29:15

of 6.1, 6.9% for James Ryan, 6.9% as

1:29:17

well for Van der Fleer, slightly lower for

1:29:19

Hanson and Loeb. But what exactly does that

1:29:22

entail? It's not a me that equates to, it's

1:29:24

kind of the simplest form of the

1:29:27

work rate that we have for players. And

1:29:29

that's basically one pass is equal to one

1:29:31

point, one tackle

1:29:32

is equal to one point, one tackle assist

1:29:34

is equal to one point. Everything

1:29:37

that's involved in it, line out lift, line out throw,

1:29:39

line out catch, line kind

1:29:42

of jump should I say, catches,

1:29:44

carries, possessions, contact.

1:29:47

It's all of kind of each individual activity

1:29:49

that we grade basically is,

1:29:53

and you know we've got I think we're up to 2,800

1:29:56

activities per game. So it's

1:29:58

a large number of activities that

1:30:00

that we grade and we take into consideration

1:30:02

when we're calculating these numbers. So it's

1:30:04

a function of the quality of work that you were doing and

1:30:06

how often you were doing that quality work. Correct, correct. And

1:30:09

they would all add up to 100 over

1:30:12

the 23 players used in the match, is it? Correct.

1:30:14

Yeah, 23 players included in the match. But

1:30:17

this is taken from an overall, from the

1:30:19

entire competition from the five games. Okay.

1:30:23

So Ireland's best players were really good. Yeah,

1:30:26

yeah. They were top quality players. We

1:30:28

were able to keep them on the pitch and as a result the

1:30:30

game plan had a better

1:30:31

success or a better opportunity if being

1:30:33

completed or fulfilled. And we have three forwards

1:30:36

and two backs. Yeah, exactly. Now if

1:30:38

we go on to Scotland, it's slightly

1:30:40

different but the Scottish coaching

1:30:42

staff did a great job again as well by being

1:30:45

able to keep their best players on the pitch. However,

1:30:48

when we look at the forwards-back

1:30:50

split, Scotland only

1:30:52

had one forward and had four backs. So

1:30:55

they're much more heavily reliant on their backs. But

1:30:58

what we can see here as well is that Ireland have

1:31:01

one, two, and threes. Scotland

1:31:05

only have one player who's ranked number one,

1:31:07

which is Hugh Jones in the outside

1:31:10

centre. So Ireland's

1:31:13

top five players are fun. The players

1:31:15

who play the most would be significantly better than

1:31:17

Scotland's five

1:31:19

starting players.

1:31:20

And also the only thing to take

1:31:22

into consideration as well here is Scotland

1:31:25

only had two players who played 100% of all the minutes as well.

1:31:30

So we're trying to show that Scotland's,

1:31:33

the players that play the most had an impact but

1:31:35

not as big of an impact as Ireland did. Which

1:31:37

you know obviously we won the tournament and

1:31:40

they didn't. Yes, this is correct. But

1:31:42

this is,

1:31:43

I suspect, I obviously don't have historical

1:31:45

data for Scotland over the last decade or so but this

1:31:48

seems like it's a quantum leap forward from flaky

1:31:51

Scotland. We're going to beat them almost no matter

1:31:53

what happens unless they're incredibly lucky

1:31:55

or our bus is late and they score two early

1:31:57

tries but that's not the case anymore. No, not

1:31:59

at all.

1:32:00

all. And what's actually even slightly even

1:32:02

more worrying is so if we take

1:32:04

these top five players and we rank them against our own,

1:32:07

we're number one for the top five. When

1:32:10

we take the top 10 players, we're

1:32:13

ranked number one as well. But when we take the top 15

1:32:15

players, so the top 15 players that have

1:32:17

the biggest impact, we drop from

1:32:20

two to one. And guess who jumps from

1:32:22

second to first? Scotland.

1:32:24

Scotland. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:27

So they were able to get their best 15 on the

1:32:30

pitch throughout the competition, but where

1:32:33

they lose their – is their

1:32:35

backups and their depth that they have.

1:32:38

So it's really, really interesting

1:32:40

because, you know, being able to take an entire

1:32:42

competition's worth of data and

1:32:45

trying it through a system where we try and take every

1:32:47

single bit of the work, you know, that's involved in the ball

1:32:49

into consideration means that we

1:32:51

don't really have that type

1:32:54

of perception

1:32:54

or personality that

1:32:57

most people have about the game. We're trying to use

1:32:59

data to really tell the story and

1:33:01

advance what people at home are learning from.

1:33:04

So it's very easy for us to envisage a

1:33:06

situation where Scotland get everybody fit for a World Cup

1:33:09

game and have one massive big one-off

1:33:11

performance where something shocking happens because

1:33:13

all their best players play 75, 80 minutes

1:33:16

of the game.

1:33:17

Really hope that happens against South Africa. Yeah,

1:33:19

yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, look, I

1:33:21

don't think Ireland would be too fussed. Like, they're

1:33:24

still number one. They're still have

1:33:26

the best players in the world. They still have the

1:33:28

biggest chance of implementing their game

1:33:30

plan, which consistently is

1:33:33

trying to out power and outlast teams because

1:33:35

they've got the highest skill set. I don't know if

1:33:38

this difference is massive in terms

1:33:40

of the numbers, but doing Venerable being and having 3.8%

1:33:45

of team contribution, compare that to Mack Hansen

1:33:47

on the Irish wings, it seems significantly less.

1:33:50

Is that a term for Scotland?

1:33:52

So, Scotland would play a very

1:33:56

consistent type of game plan where

1:33:58

the wings stay on the wing and the They

1:34:02

use Finn Russell to get the ball to those players.

1:34:05

But Ireland

1:34:07

have a little bit more free reign. Because

1:34:09

Ireland played quite a bit tighter, you'll find that

1:34:11

MacCanson gets involved in the game a little bit

1:34:13

more. And also then you've got

1:34:16

James Lowe who kicks the ball, significantly part

1:34:19

of the game plan. So that's how those two players

1:34:21

get involved in the game a little bit more compared to Scotland

1:34:24

who tend to leave their wings sticking

1:34:26

on the wing and leave them out there. So

1:34:29

it's just a slight change in game plan.

1:34:32

That's a fitness level of hands-in and load.

1:34:34

The fact that they have 100% minutes played on

1:34:37

the wing, that's not easy. No, no,

1:34:39

but I tell you what, it's much, much harder for

1:34:41

a Josh Mender player. Yeah, right. Well, Jesus,

1:34:43

yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, and

1:34:46

then we've also taken into consideration

1:34:48

then the other teams as well, just kind of

1:34:51

from a very high level. France

1:34:53

didn't really have very many players and the

1:34:56

number one player in the competition at nearly

1:34:58

any position. They're either second, third

1:35:00

or fourth, but also they're including so

1:35:05

their wingers. They only had one

1:35:07

player, each Kalfiku, who played actually the full 400 minutes.

1:35:12

Then their other players, their

1:35:14

wingers wouldn't be considered at the very top

1:35:16

of the competition and

1:35:18

their second rows as well. Obviously DuPont

1:35:21

comes in at number two and I know we'll

1:35:23

probably get a bit of a stick about this. How can

1:35:25

DuPont be number He's the best player

1:35:27

in the world. When we

1:35:30

take everything into consideration and

1:35:32

we look at what nine does as

1:35:34

a player, 70% of

1:35:36

what an average nine is doing is

1:35:38

passing the ball. But DuPont,

1:35:40

what makes DuPont really good is that he's really good

1:35:42

at carrying the ball. But again, he does

1:35:45

turn the ball over. Like he only get four or five

1:35:47

turnovers against England and he had

1:35:49

a couple against the last game as well.

1:35:52

When we take all that into consideration and

1:35:54

we look at his accuracy of passing and look

1:35:56

and

1:35:57

we can't give a

1:35:59

play.

1:36:00

player special

1:36:02

dispensation just because he carries more.

1:36:04

You know what I mean? So we need to put him

1:36:06

at the same level as all the other players, even

1:36:09

though he does do special things. We

1:36:11

do obviously take that into consideration as well.

1:36:14

It's interesting that France only used one player for

1:36:17

every minute

1:36:19

of every game because they were

1:36:22

unbelievably happy at the end of the competition.

1:36:26

Very confident

1:36:27

with the way the whole thing had panned out, they're

1:36:29

going to have every game at home. They're

1:36:32

feeling themselves. They have very strong confidence

1:36:34

off the back of the tournament, particularly the way it finished for

1:36:36

them. So I wonder how much

1:36:38

of this they're happy with, or it's like, no, we haven't peaked.

1:36:41

We're nowhere near our peak just yet, but we showed that

1:36:43

we can when we plan

1:36:45

for

1:36:46

the England game, for example. I

1:36:49

think discipline has a huge thing to do

1:36:52

with

1:36:53

it. Because of the amount of yellow cards and the red

1:36:55

cards that they got in the competition, that meant

1:36:57

the players had to be substituted off

1:37:00

to go into different positions. That's what's reflected

1:37:02

here in the French team.

1:37:05

If they can get that sorted, I think they've got other

1:37:07

issues. I think we tend

1:37:10

to

1:37:11

have recency bias quite a lot

1:37:13

when it comes to sport. We

1:37:16

forget about

1:37:17

France's first two games in the competition

1:37:19

where they really didn't play very well and they were kind of stuck

1:37:21

in the mud. third game as well. It wasn't

1:37:23

until they played against a very poor English side until

1:37:25

they actually ran riot. Yeah,

1:37:28

Matt Williams says that they trained in the training block all the way through

1:37:31

to stress the players so that they would be prepared

1:37:33

more for what's coming in the World Cup, which I

1:37:35

think would explain. You can't,

1:37:38

high performance, you can't be training for

1:37:41

a different competition while you're, while you've got a

1:37:43

match next week. The only match you should be training for

1:37:45

is the week the game is. I'm not sure about that. I don't,

1:37:48

I mean, France won a Grand Slam last year,

1:37:50

so winning the Grandslam this year and then bowing

1:37:52

out in the group stage of the quarter final of the World Cup, everybody's

1:37:54

gonna go, what was the point of those Grandslams? France have

1:37:56

one thing on their agenda this year and that's when the world up.

1:38:00

at it from a high performance from an analytical perspective,

1:38:02

you can't take, you

1:38:05

got to take small incremental steps to

1:38:07

improve. Well, but so

1:38:11

last year France peaked, they

1:38:13

reached the level and in November they came

1:38:15

down off that level. We were like, Oh, this is interesting. They're

1:38:17

not quite the same team. And

1:38:20

if they decided that they were going to periodize differently

1:38:22

for this for specific reasons,

1:38:24

then I can see how they'd be feeling, feeling

1:38:26

pretty confident about it. But if you're

1:38:29

playing week in week out, if you're

1:38:31

playing 20-35 games a year, then you can

1:38:35

say, alright, we can

1:38:37

try and peak for certain parts of the season. But

1:38:39

when you've got six games

1:38:41

between now and the World Cup, and

1:38:43

you're saying that you're going to peak for September,

1:38:46

you've only got three or four games

1:38:48

together, you've then got a massive break,

1:38:50

you've got all your players that are going to go off and play in different

1:38:52

leagues and play in different levels, you

1:38:54

can't try and peak for different periods.

1:38:57

You have to peak. You have to have

1:39:00

your best players, your best performance, your best

1:39:02

game plan for the next week's

1:39:04

game. All that matters. This

1:39:06

whole idea of thinking to World Cup prior to

1:39:08

the Six Nations. But that's also not true because you

1:39:10

don't need to peak for the Italy game. Like you don't.

1:39:13

You can have and you can also mix and match.

1:39:15

I think that there's many

1:39:17

different ways to skin this, right? I think

1:39:20

if you're France... So Matt

1:39:22

was the only person who who I've heard say

1:39:24

this, and I've no reason to doubt that it hasn't kind of swept

1:39:26