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1:56

Welcome

1:56

to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner.

1:58

This is part four of an ongoing... series. If

2:01

you haven't heard the other episodes, you

2:03

should go and start at the beginning. You're about to hear

2:05

the accounts of Sarah's brother, mom,

2:08

and dad. I spoke to each of them over

2:10

the course of this year, and afterwards

2:12

I thought a lot about how I wanted to present

2:14

this story. There was a lot of ways to do it, but

2:17

ultimately I thought it would be best if I

2:19

just let the audience hear each side of this

2:21

saga from the people who experienced it. Because

2:25

you rarely get to hear stories

2:27

like this pulled in that way. Each

2:29

time I spoke to somebody new, they would

2:32

have an additional piece of information that

2:34

other people forgot or didn't mention. Each

2:36

of them played a pivotal role and

2:39

witnessed their own sections of this

2:41

very long story. This is the second to

2:43

last episode in the series. You're about to hear

2:45

from Sarah's mom, dad,

2:48

and brother. They're going to tell you what

2:50

they witnessed, and then we're

2:52

going to discuss the events that led up to

2:55

a night that really this entire

2:57

thing centers around. A night

2:59

where everything comes to a head. This

3:01

is episode 57. The

3:04

title is Many Things Part 4, and

3:07

you're listening to Other World.

3:14

It

3:25

means what it looks like.

3:48

So, I have a different

3:50

kind of perspective, right? Because it's

3:52

not my story to tell. I

3:55

am Sarah's younger brother, so I'm

3:57

literally telling you what I know

3:59

from what was told to me and from

4:01

kind of that one night which we'll get into

4:04

that I experienced it firsthand,

4:07

right? So I had

4:09

just moved back from New York so I would have been 22, 23. You

4:12

know, I was still a young guy going

4:15

out partying, having

4:17

fun and I wasn't really, you know,

4:19

taking work or anything too serious. So

4:24

I enjoyed the fact that I worked at the family

4:26

company because I got to see my dad and I got to see

4:28

Sarah every day. I

4:30

remember first hearing about it

4:33

through my mom. She

4:35

was kind of like, yeah, your sister is having

4:38

some strange

4:40

things happen at her house. And

4:42

you know, they got a really good deal on this house. So

4:44

I was excited. It was a beautiful big house.

4:46

I would get to hang out there on weekends. Yeah,

4:49

when my mom kind of told me this, I was like, whoa,

4:52

this is something different. I really

4:54

didn't have too many paranormal

4:57

experiences.

4:59

I'm a

5:00

pretty reason based

5:02

guy in terms of my thinking. I'm

5:05

pretty grounded. I'm not too out there. I

5:08

tend to use ration to

5:12

kind of figure out what's

5:14

going on. I'm not too big into

5:16

spirits or, you

5:18

know, astral signs or anything like that.

5:21

So when my mom told me that, I guess I

5:23

was kind of like, oh, okay. Like it was just another

5:25

fact. I was a little bit shocked. And

5:28

then, you know, it was getting worse

5:30

and worse as we approached Halloween.

5:33

My mom was telling me that things were getting progressively

5:36

worse at the house. And it went kind

5:38

of like from something that was like a funny,

5:41

fun experience to, okay, there's

5:44

something here. And you

5:46

know, it's disturbing both your

5:48

sister and Cameron.

5:50

So

5:51

yeah, me being a skeptic, I was

5:53

like, well, you know what, maybe I should

5:56

go over to their house. Like maybe I should,

5:58

you know, go over there. pay them

6:00

a visit, take their mind off everything.

6:03

Like I said, I like to make people laugh, I like

6:05

to have fun, I like to drink, so I

6:07

was like, you know, let me go hang

6:09

out with Sarah and Cam. I'll go to their new house, I'll

6:12

take their mind off it, like we'll have some drinks,

6:14

we'll watch a movie, it's Halloween

6:17

time, like we'll chill out a little bit,

6:19

and you know, maybe this is something that

6:22

will relax them, because

6:24

my mom was saying like they were both having, you

6:27

know, some issues sleeping,

6:29

because they were getting woken up. A

6:32

lot of stuff could do with like her and Cameron's

6:34

dreams. Like I remember hearing

6:37

about one that Sarah was saying that

6:39

it threatened to kill our other

6:42

brother, like she was having visions of our

6:44

other brother like dying or something,

6:47

and I remember Cam telling me about a dream

6:49

where this furry

6:53

demon thing was chasing

6:55

him, and he woke up

6:58

screaming, he said it was like a weird

7:01

humanoid like rabbit

7:03

type figure that was covered

7:06

in fur and chasing him in

7:10

his dream. So that

7:12

was something else that I remember.

7:15

So like I said, I was pretty skeptical

7:18

about the whole situation. I was like, okay,

7:21

well look, it could be something that they're both

7:23

kind of confused about, like

7:26

I wasn't really so worried

7:28

about it. So I went over, I think

7:30

it was just me, Sarah, and Cam.

7:33

So I do remember walking in

7:35

and there was

7:37

like this heaviness, right, when you walked in

7:39

the door. And I knew that this

7:42

was different, right, because I had been to their house many

7:44

times, I think they had like a small housewarming

7:46

party, I was there when they moved in,

7:49

I helped them move in, and I didn't feel this

7:51

kind of like cloudy heaviness, almost

7:54

like, you know, there's somebody else.

7:56

I know it sounds cliche, but almost

7:58

like there's, you know, something

8:01

else there and other, something

8:03

else watching you. Like it wasn't just me,

8:05

Sarah and Cameron. There was like another

8:08

set of eyes in the

8:10

house or, yeah,

8:13

you know, of course the first thing I do when I walk

8:15

through the door is like, okay, so tell me about

8:18

this ghost, you know? Let

8:20

me see like what's going on, like

8:24

bring me up to speed kind of thing, which

8:26

I think my mom actually told me, like don't

8:29

talk about the ghost, just go there and like hang out

8:31

with them. But of course,

8:34

you know, I wanted to know more. I

8:36

think they gave me a walkthrough of

8:39

the house, like where certain things had happened.

8:42

I don't know, there was something weird in this one room

8:44

of their house that they kind of showed me.

8:47

And I was like, you know, being young and dumb,

8:50

22 year old, like, oh, there's nothing in here. Like,

8:52

you know, laughing and joking around,

8:54

which in retrospect was probably stupid. You

8:57

know, like I said, I was kind of screwing

9:00

around. So I was like, well, why don't we try to

9:02

like talk to this thing, you know, like

9:04

half joking, but half like, hey, like

9:06

let's take this up a notch. I'm not sure

9:08

where Sarah was at this point, but I kind of looked

9:11

some stuff up online. I think Cameron

9:13

was kind of like apprehensive about

9:15

it. We looked up like

9:17

a hack

9:18

way to make like a Ouija board.

9:22

And then we looked up like a way to communicate

9:24

with ghosts. I mean, keep in mind, this is like very

9:26

hack. And we created

9:29

this, I guess, Ouija

9:31

board on paper where you wrote out different

9:33

letters and you had, I think like

9:35

another piece of paper or like a button or

9:38

something that is supposed to move. And

9:41

then we kind of looked up what you're supposed

9:43

to save. So it's like, if there's somebody in his house,

9:45

please make your presence known, something like that. And

9:48

then I remember we read, we were

9:50

supposed to give it an offering. So we gave

9:52

it like a piece of bread or something. Honestly,

9:55

some of these details are fuzzy,

9:58

but yeah, I remember we did. we did read that

10:00

you're supposed to give it an offering. So we did all that. And

10:05

eventually all three of us start playing with the Ouija

10:07

board, not much was really happening.

10:11

Then I remember we

10:13

were kind of like ready to like give

10:15

up and just go back to doing

10:17

whatever we were gonna do, whether it was watching movie

10:20

or having some drinks. And I was downstairs

10:22

in the kitchen with Sarah.

10:26

And I remember she was like, look, and

10:29

we looked up and above

10:31

her kitchen counter, there were these

10:34

hanging pendant lights. And

10:36

I just remember one of them kind of started like twisting

10:39

around. And then they

10:41

kind of started like swaying, like

10:44

almost like a pendulum, think of like a pendulum.

10:47

And I think there were three lights and they were kind

10:49

of like swaying kind of like in

10:51

unison. And I was like, what

10:53

the fuck? And I was like thinking,

10:56

did somebody come down here and like touch

10:58

these, is Sarah playing a game on me? Like

11:00

did she quickly kind of like brush them?

11:03

And then it's like, look, look, like

11:05

playing a practical joke. But then I quickly realized

11:08

that she was not laughing.

11:11

Like she was kind of like, oh shit, like this is

11:14

happening. You know, I try to find

11:16

like a rational explanation, but in

11:19

this case, I really couldn't. Like

11:21

I think the actual lighting in the room was changing a little bit

11:23

as the pendants were swinging. Just

11:25

then as the pendants are still

11:28

swinging and we're still trying to get over what the heck is

11:30

happening, we hear this very

11:32

loud, loud music coming

11:35

from the basement. And it was

11:37

like some, I don't know,

11:39

like kids Halloween monster

11:41

song. And we yelled like,

11:44

Cameron, are you down there? And then Cameron

11:46

came down from upstairs. So

11:49

he clearly wasn't down there. And the music

11:51

was still playing. And he was like, what's up with the music?

11:54

I was like, okay, well, there's

11:57

clearly something here, but

11:59

I'm gonna go.

11:59

upstairs

12:01

and confront this thing because cams like no,

12:03

it only happens on one side of the house. So

12:05

don't go into that room. Don't like do

12:08

anything. And I was like,

12:10

No, screw this, like something's screwing

12:12

with, you know, my family, I'm gonna

12:14

go upstairs. I'm not scared. I don't

12:16

really believe in what's happening. So

12:18

I ran up the stairs over

12:21

to the room, the room that they showed

12:23

me where they thought it lived. There's

12:26

like a little closet,

12:28

like a little not walk in closet, but like

12:31

a closet with a door that you open. And

12:34

on the inside of this closet door,

12:37

there was this strange kind of writing.

12:39

And it had like some strange arrangement

12:41

of like numbers, almost like cipher

12:44

and like some letters that that made

12:47

no sense to us whatsoever. As I'm running

12:49

over to grab the door handle, the

12:52

door slams, like

12:54

I'm not just talking about closes, like it slams

12:58

as though there were like a 200 mile per hour

13:00

wind behind it, and it's slammed shut.

13:03

So I

13:05

pull much run downstairs. And

13:07

I look at Sarah and Cameron and they're both have, you

13:09

know, this kind of glazed overlook on their face, like they

13:11

couldn't believe what they just heard. And Tam

13:14

and Sarah were both kind of like, Okay,

13:16

so now do you believe us? And I was kind

13:18

of like just left in the wilderman.

13:21

I didn't really know what to say. I think

13:23

I went home shortly after that. And,

13:26

you know, I told my mom what happened.

13:28

And she was very, very upset with

13:30

me. Because

13:32

yeah, apparently that did make it worse. And

13:35

you know, I did feel pretty bad about

13:38

what happened. I think it was coming

13:40

from a good place. I was trying to keep

13:42

it light. But, you

13:45

know, being naive and kind

13:48

of dumb, honestly, I,

13:50

I made it much worse.

13:59

told my kids never

14:02

to fuck around with Ouija boards, never.

14:06

I've just, anyone I know

14:08

who's into this sort of spiritual things, they all

14:10

say the same thing, do not fuck

14:12

around with them and I was away. If I had heard

14:14

that, and I always told them that, and don't try

14:16

to do these stupid seances and stuff like

14:18

that, I said, kids, you know what, you

14:21

do not do it. So I didn't hear until

14:23

after the fact, after, you know,

14:27

after we were away and came home that they did

14:29

that, I would have told them absolutely not to do

14:31

that because that will set things off, I think even

14:33

worse once you start screwing

14:36

around with that. And not only that, even if you have, you

14:38

know, a spirit in your house, you can bring more in. And

14:41

I'm just like, you do not. And they

14:43

always tell me they're the low life spirits, really

14:46

bad ones. But I would, you

14:48

know, I remember when I was a kid, they had Ouija boards

14:50

and stuff. And I remember my

14:53

grandmother who was into this stuff saying,

14:55

no, no, no, no, she was Irish, do not

14:57

ever play with those, don't. Because we used to go

14:59

to a friend's house and this happened, she'd say, no, no, don't

15:01

do that. Don't go near that stuff. And

15:04

I never did. And, you know, Sarah told me after

15:06

the fact,

15:06

and I'm like, you idiots, why would you do that,

15:09

Sarah? I told you guys never to do that. And

15:12

they thought that, I think they just thought they could do it

15:14

and say, okay, go away or whatever. And everything

15:16

would be settled. I don't know, I don't

15:18

know what to say. Daniel's

15:21

never admitted it to me because he knows I'd

15:23

kick his ass. But Sarah was the

15:25

one who told me, and I'm like, oh my God, why would you guys

15:27

do that? That's really not a smart

15:29

thing to do. When

15:31

I first went into the house, I

15:34

felt something. But, you know, I'm

15:36

sort of used to that. In

15:38

our old house, I don't know if Sarah ever told you, in our old

15:40

house, one before,

15:42

we live in now, where the kids grew up,

15:44

we had a little ghost. But

15:47

it was sort of more, how can I

15:49

say,

15:50

it's sort of like was parallel to

15:52

us on a parallel universe, weed and bug yet,

15:55

it didn't really bug us or anything. So

15:58

I went in, went with. Sarah's house and I felt

16:01

there was something there, but

16:04

I didn't feel any, I never feel nervous

16:06

about these things. They don't scare me too

16:08

much. I come

16:10

from a long line of what they call Welsh,

16:12

which is what my grandfather

16:15

was Welsh and his family, you know,

16:17

and I'm not psychic

16:20

in the sense, oh, I can tell this or this, but when bad

16:22

things are going to happen, like the day my sister

16:24

died, I woke up and Peter was going on a road

16:26

trip and I said, and she wasn't sick. This is when

16:28

I was very young when I was 21 and she just

16:30

died very unexpectedly. And I woke

16:33

up and he went to go and I was

16:34

begging him not to go. I said, it's going to be a really bad

16:36

day. I just know something very bad is

16:38

happening today.

16:40

And he kept saying, Joe, calm down. There's nothing

16:42

bad going to happen. Then an hour later, I got a call

16:44

that my sister had died. It's that sort

16:46

of that sort. I can never like, I didn't know

16:48

it was her, but I knew something was happening.

16:51

And it's like when I went into that house, I knew

16:54

there was something there. And,

16:55

you know, Sarah thought it was evil. I didn't,

16:59

I didn't feel so much evil. I felt

17:01

like it just wanted to be noticed. And

17:03

I felt it was Sarah said, Mommy, you're the only one I know

17:05

who feels sorry for a ghost. But I did. I

17:08

felt very bad for it because I felt it was very,

17:10

it was

17:12

very lost and very misunderstood.

17:14

And it just wanted some attention

17:15

of some kind of attention. I don't know. I was

17:18

getting very nervous because I felt it was

17:20

very, not

17:21

just aggressive, but it wanted

17:23

to be noticed. And especially by Sarah.

17:26

And I got a strong sense like it,

17:28

what scared me. Cause I really, like

17:31

I said, I'm not fearful of these things, but what two

17:33

things scared me about it in the end is I

17:35

really felt

17:37

it didn't want Cameron

17:38

around very strongly.

17:41

And I, I felt that

17:44

like the one time, I don't know if Sarah told you

17:46

that that was the only time I really

17:49

got a bit fearful is when we were going

17:51

to a friend's wedding and

17:53

there was all this stuff with the plane that was unexplainable.

17:56

And we kept, they kept delaying and delaying and Sarah

17:58

just kept saying, I'm not. going and she always likes

18:01

to go on these trips and I don't want to go and blah, blah,

18:03

blah. And I kept saying, Sarah, this is a free trip

18:05

down to wherever. And I said, you know,

18:07

what is the problem? She was acting sort

18:09

of strange that whole time. And I thought she's not

18:12

right. There's something not right. And

18:14

then when she, I was sitting just

18:16

in front of her and she was

18:19

on the other side behind

18:21

me. And I remember very clearly

18:23

as a plane started to taxi,

18:26

she said, I don't know if it was

18:28

I'm or she's not going.

18:32

And she looked at me and it was like her eyes

18:34

were all weird. And I thought

18:36

that's not that's the only time that really flipped

18:39

me out because I thought that's not

18:41

Sarah talking to me right now. And she

18:43

was good trying to undo her seatbelt and stuff. And

18:45

I was like, okay, sit down, Sarah, calm down, calm down.

18:47

And I was, I was scared. I thought we'll be kicked off the plane,

18:49

whatever. And I remember then she

18:51

said to calm down after that. And

18:53

I noticed when we were away, there

18:56

was nothing happening. Like it was, there

18:58

was nothing going on. And she was fine pretty

19:00

well that whole time. But then

19:03

within a few days of getting home, there was

19:05

some,

19:05

you know, more weird

19:06

stuff. And I remember thinking back,

19:08

I thought, Oh my God, because I grew up Catholic. I

19:11

remember thinking at the time, you know, about the Exorcist

19:13

because I read the books and it was based

19:15

actually on a priest from Winnipeg

19:17

where I grew up in the prairies. And I thought, Oh my God,

19:19

what if my child becomes

19:22

possessed by this thing? That was the only time I'll

19:24

be honest. I was really very fearful.

19:27

And then I thought, what if it gets her to hurt

19:29

Cameron or something? That's what was really scaring

19:31

me in the end. I just sort of

19:33

went nuts on it one day because I

19:35

could see how haggard the kids were

19:38

and they weren't sleeping and they were both at their

19:40

wits end. And I was getting very,

19:42

very frustrated. I even

19:45

tried with my nanny who's also she's Filipino.

19:48

She's been a nanny to the kids since they're little. And

19:50

she still comes in clean for us and Sarah's

19:52

house. And I told her and she,

19:54

she, she still goes to church and everything.

19:57

And she got me some holy water

19:58

and stuff. And I said, let's bring. the holy

20:00

water in. And her and I went through

20:02

the house and said some prayers and did the holy

20:04

water. And then Sarah said after that, it acted

20:07

up even

20:07

worse, like it went ballistic. After

20:10

that, I do

20:11

remember Peter getting the rabbis

20:14

and doing all, you know, put up all the mazuzahs

20:16

through the house. We did all this stuff. And that

20:19

didn't do much either. I

20:21

was getting really scared that this thing was starting

20:24

to possess her. That was my biggest fear of it.

20:26

And then when she told me, I don't know if she told you any

20:28

of this, but I was

20:30

and I don't know how I just remember something

20:32

about.

20:34

She felt like it jumped on her one night and

20:36

she couldn't breathe and she didn't know if it was trying to attack

20:39

her or whatever. And that's when I got really,

20:41

I thought, okay, this is getting to be way too

20:43

much. You know, something has to give

20:45

one way or another because I thought

20:48

that she'll end up having a mental breakdown. I mean, she

20:50

was terrified at this point. So was Cameron like

20:53

he looked like hell. And I mean,

20:55

I've known that Cameron since he was,

20:57

I don't know, I guess he was 16

20:59

when he came on the scene. They've been together and, you know,

21:02

they're in their thirties now. Cameron's 36, 37. So

21:06

he's like one of my kids and I could

21:08

see it on his face every day. You know, I could see it

21:10

on his face and on her face. And

21:13

I just didn't, you know, there was

21:15

no one to sort of call for these sort of

21:17

things. I would stay a lot

21:19

at night. I got very scared.

21:22

One night I stayed

21:24

and

21:24

she started sleepwalking a lot.

21:27

And I remember one night I

21:30

went to get her and she had that look in her

21:32

eyes. And I was like in the guest room and

21:35

she was in her room. I don't know if Cameron was there

21:37

that night or he was away. I can't remember, but I

21:39

just remember. And I grabbed her and she

21:41

had this, like, you know, this, I call it

21:43

the Charlie Manson look like that look

21:46

of Sarah, Sarah.

21:47

And then she's like just

21:50

staring up,

21:50

staring at me. And then also she just sort of

21:53

dropped down to the ground, like not

21:55

even like a faith where you sort of, she literally

21:57

dropped.

21:58

And then I tried the

21:59

wake her up and stuff and she had no idea, but she said

22:02

she had this horrible nightmare about him.

22:04

And I said, okay, let's get back to bed. Let's get

22:06

back to bed. And I was really scared too that

22:08

she would walk out onto the street

22:11

or, you know, because she seemed to have no

22:13

clue

22:13

and you could not wake her. It was

22:16

really, I don't know

22:18

if you've ever seen anyone sleepwalking.

22:20

First of all, it's very strange.

22:24

It's very kind of scary anyways. I

22:27

had seen her walking before, but this was even

22:29

another level. It was like,

22:31

I don't know, she wasn't there. It was like very

22:34

strange and you're kind of scared

22:36

of her. I was kind of scared of her. She

22:38

had this

22:39

crazy look in her eye at the time. And

22:42

then, you know, all of a sudden she just dropped and then I woke

22:44

her up and she's like, wow, what am I doing? Well, you know,

22:46

and I'm like, sorry, come on, honey, get back to

22:48

bed, get back to bed. But I remember

22:51

being very

22:52

bothered by that. I think if

22:54

anything, those are the things that

22:56

bothered me most as I felt like I,

22:59

like I kept saying to Sarah and Cameron, this thing cannot

23:01

hurt you guys. Like, you know, I've

23:03

never seen any, any,

23:05

any stuff where a ghost

23:07

or spirit actually, I mean, they can make some

23:09

banging sounds. They can do all this

23:11

stuff. I've never heard of any of them

23:13

hurting you. And that's why I kept trying to say to the kids,

23:16

it can't hurt you unless you let it.

23:18

This one wanted some attention, obviously.

23:21

And when you would come in, it would be like, I

23:23

felt like it was trying to scare me for whatever

23:26

reason. I don't know why, but it was

23:28

trying, it wanted to be powerful, you

23:30

know? And I didn't want to give it

23:32

the power, but I could definitely, it was like, it's

23:35

draining too. If you go in there for a few

23:37

minutes and you're like, no, you're not going to scare me, blah,

23:40

blah, blah. And you come out, it drains your energy

23:42

as well. It's very draining. And

23:45

I never, like I said, I've experienced spirits before

23:48

in different houses, but nothing like this. I

23:50

never had anything like the energy

23:52

of this one. I think more than anything, it's

23:55

the energy of this one. It just was like a wild,

23:58

pore surface.

23:59

or something, it had so much energy. Everyone

24:03

thinks you can explain everything, and sometimes you

24:05

can't, and I think when people can't find an

24:07

explanation, they either say,

24:09

you're crazy, you're

24:12

making it up, or I

24:14

don't know what, but people need

24:17

explanations for everything, and when there isn't some,

24:19

or something we can't explain, I think they

24:22

get really, really scared, or they

24:24

try to pretend it didn't happen. That's

24:26

what Sarah said, if she goes public, she goes,

24:28

luck, Mom, people are gonna call me crazy.

24:31

She says, well, that's up to you, they didn't live it. You

24:33

know, it's up to you, and she goes, oh, I don't care

24:35

what they think. She said, I know what I went through.

24:38

I think there's just so much we don't know, and

24:43

I think there's a lot we'll never know,

24:46

but you just have

24:48

to, like we got professionals, I guess

24:50

they were professionals in, and thank God. We

24:53

were just lucky, I kept thinking, what if

24:55

we didn't find something, what would have ended

24:58

up happening? That's what scares me sometimes

25:00

when I think about it. What would have ended up

25:02

happening if we didn't get any help?

25:08

Okay, we have to take a quick break, but

25:10

we will be right back.

25:19

My name is Peter Lenjoe,

25:22

I am Sarah's father.

25:25

I was witness to some of

25:27

this. First of all, I thought

25:29

it was weird that they found such

25:31

a nice property in

25:34

that price range because it didn't really

25:36

make sense. So my

25:38

first call it instinct

25:41

was to say, what's wrong

25:43

with this property? What

25:46

could be wrong? Anyway,

25:49

so once they moved into the house, weird

25:51

things started happening. So

25:53

there was all this water

25:56

stuff that seemingly,

25:59

Kept happening. I didn't make

26:02

I didn't make very much of that.

26:04

I just sort of thought okay, that's weird

26:07

Seem to be having a lot of water issues I

26:10

wonder if they're in a low point

26:12

or maybe there's some kind of underground

26:15

waterway or something that

26:18

may be Adding

26:20

to this but anyways, I kind

26:23

of put that aside they

26:25

dealt with their floods and then the

26:28

next thing I Really

26:30

was aware of was

26:34

some paranormal activity happening

26:36

in the house and I

26:38

think it was My wife

26:40

having spent some time there helping

26:43

my daughter and my wife saying

26:47

She kind of felt a presence

26:50

She started reporting a few things.

26:53

Maybe it was noises started to

26:56

started to happen, you know, like noises

26:59

like You

27:02

know, maybe doors opening and closing stuff

27:05

like that and I thought

27:09

Okay, tuck it in the back of my head. Nothing

27:11

was really I'm

27:13

gonna say pronounced enough that

27:16

I would be worried

27:19

Right. It was sort of like okay. There's there's

27:22

some strange things going on in the house We

27:24

should find out if you know, the house

27:26

was haunted and then I found out I Don't

27:30

know some somehow I found out that

27:32

oh by the way the you know the

27:35

the house before the developer got

27:37

to it was laid dormant

27:40

for like eight years and And

27:42

then started hearing stuff

27:44

about that that you know Houses

27:48

that lie dormant for any

27:50

length of time that long of a period

27:52

of time are subject

27:55

to being haunted I

28:03

think that what

28:07

kind of kicked it into a high

28:10

gear concern for me was

28:12

when my wife started

28:15

reporting things that

28:18

my daughter was doing and saying.

28:21

And she didn't know what to attribute it

28:23

to, but she was getting really worried

28:26

about Sarah. Some

28:28

of it would have been swearing, some

28:31

of it would have been acting out, some of it

28:33

would have been saying things

28:36

about Cameron or to Cameron that were completely

28:39

out of character for Sarah. So we spoke

28:41

about that, but you know how it goes, or

28:43

maybe you don't, but at first

28:45

when you hear these things, you shrug them

28:48

off as being, eh, okay. So you

28:50

heard some doors opening and closing, and

28:53

things are weird, or you slept over

28:55

and you felt a presence. So you kind

28:57

of shrug them off, or at least I do, until

29:00

it started getting

29:04

weirder. We

29:06

were sitting down in our family room

29:09

one evening, I think we were making a

29:11

fire, and having

29:14

a nice chat, just my wife and

29:16

I and them. I don't know, I forget what

29:18

we were talking about.

29:22

And

29:25

I think Sarah picked up

29:27

the poker that was sitting next to

29:31

the fireplace and said something

29:34

along the lines of,

29:35

I could kill you

29:37

if I wanted to.

29:39

It wasn't like there was a preceding

29:41

argument, it was just

29:44

kind of out of nowhere. I

29:49

knew something was wrong. This

29:51

was not my daughter. This

29:53

was somebody else, some

29:57

other presence.

30:00

speaking through her. Stuff

30:02

like threats, you know, swear words, swearing

30:05

at him, and, you

30:07

know, saying, you know, I'm going to kill

30:09

you or I don't want you here,

30:12

or, you know, time for you to go or, you know,

30:14

it's something along those lines, or,

30:17

you know, why don't you just leave us? You

30:19

know, stuff that was

30:22

out of character. My daughter would

30:25

never utter those threats.

30:28

And when I first encountered that, I

30:30

said, you know, this

30:32

is concerning because

30:35

it was clear that whatever

30:37

was talking through her would

30:43

have the tendency to be violent,

30:46

was uttering death threats,

30:49

and I

30:52

take that seriously.

30:53

That's

30:56

what first got us concerned. And then when

30:58

I saw it in person, I said, okay,

31:02

this is a whole other level. So

31:06

I reached out to a trusted

31:08

source,

31:09

and principally because

31:11

of the concern

31:14

that

31:15

she was in trouble. You know, people call

31:17

them psychics, some people call them

31:20

clairvoyants, some people call

31:22

them, you know, intuitive. And

31:27

this person woman clarified

31:30

for me a lot of things, a

31:33

lot of things. And she very quickly

31:35

pinpointed the fact that the

31:38

house was situated in

31:40

a piece of property

31:43

that a long time ago was

31:45

kind of a native First

31:48

Nations crossing,

31:51

where tribes came together and

31:53

there was a waterway.

31:56

And it was built

31:58

on

32:00

It was built in this place. So

32:03

it had a very Aboriginal

32:06

or First Nations resonance to her. And

32:09

she said, there's definitely that component

32:12

going on. And the other thing

32:14

she said was, you

32:16

should be concerned about

32:19

your daughter, because it seems to

32:21

me that maybe

32:24

one of the spirits that has

32:27

attached itself to the home,

32:30

is

32:31

seeking to attach itself to your daughter. There's

32:34

something going on and you need to deal

32:37

with it. And so

32:39

she right away said, I would

32:42

try and seek out, get

32:45

some crystals happening,

32:47

bring some crystals and

32:50

rocks that are healing rocks

32:53

and protective rocks into Sarah's

32:56

immediate surrounding. And

32:58

she said, if you can, reach

33:01

out and see if

33:03

you can find someone who can

33:05

help you. You

33:08

know, she basically

33:11

gave me the message that what Sarah

33:14

was experiencing was real, wasn't

33:17

in her mind. What we were

33:19

seeing was a real concern and there

33:21

was an entity or entities that

33:24

were attempting to attach themselves

33:26

to my daughter. So I did

33:28

go out. I found a place that

33:31

had crystals and rocks and

33:33

did aura cleansing and all this stuff. And

33:36

I

33:38

happen to have a friend of mine

33:40

who's met through a photography workshop.

33:43

And I was taking a number

33:45

of workshops with this guy. And his

33:47

partner is a woman

33:50

who has also kind of

33:53

a sixth sense about

33:56

her. And I phoned her up and

33:58

I said, I'm really. I'm really concerned about my

34:00

daughter. There

34:03

seems to be, I mean, I know

34:05

it sounds crazy, but there seems to be this

34:08

spirit that has attached itself

34:10

to her house, to her potentially,

34:13

and in a harmful way, I'm really concerned

34:16

about her wellbeing. And

34:18

she said, you know what, I don't

34:21

know. She said, let me make some inquiries

34:23

after a little bit. She came back to me and

34:25

said, you know what, I don't

34:28

usually do this for people, Peter, but

34:30

you're a good friend. Why don't

34:33

you and Sarah come over for dinner and

34:36

I'll see what I see

34:39

and I'll tell you what I see.

34:40

So we did. I invited Sarah

34:43

over to their house. They very kindly had

34:45

us over for dinner. After

34:47

dinner, she took me aside and said,

34:50

there is definitely a spirit

34:53

that has attached itself to your daughter. I

34:56

was there. I could see him. I

34:59

was encountering him. He's

35:01

attached

35:03

and he's

35:04

not letting go, not easily. And

35:07

he's definitely

35:11

with her, you know, wouldn't

35:13

leave and she had this sense

35:15

of him being

35:18

possessive of Sarah.

35:22

So I didn't argue with

35:24

her. I said, oh, that's very interesting.

35:27

I mean, obviously I couldn't see or

35:29

detect anything, but she said most definitely

35:31

there was a spirit

35:34

and sitting right next to

35:36

her. One

35:38

of the strangest experiences

35:41

I've ever had with my daughter,

35:43

frankly, we were sitting in

35:45

this Japanese cafe

35:47

having a nice lunch and

35:51

I started inquiring

35:53

about these

35:55

episodes. And

35:57

she... started

36:00

explaining to me how she didn't

36:03

feel herself sometimes

36:06

and that something was taken over.

36:13

I looked at her from

36:15

across the table and

36:17

I've never

36:19

had this happen before, but

36:23

I actually saw my

36:25

daughter's face start

36:28

to distort.

36:30

Almost like,

36:33

how can I put it, almost like in the

36:35

movies when

36:37

it's pretended that there's static

36:40

on a screen, it's almost

36:42

like her face started to

36:45

distort in that way. And

36:48

it was like when she was telling me

36:50

this stuff about her

36:52

not feeling in control, that's when

36:55

her face started going weird.

37:00

And that's when I became totally

37:03

and utterly convinced that

37:05

there was a spiritual

37:08

being attached to her and

37:10

that I had to do something on my

37:13

own volition to deal

37:17

with us. I've

37:20

never had that before

37:22

and never had it since.

37:26

It's almost like

37:28

you know when there's an image

37:31

of a face that's gone through a scanner,

37:33

but it's like the scanner is off-tune.

37:35

It's like one side of

37:41

her face was being was like visually

37:44

distorting, almost like

37:46

that. Like it was distorting,

37:49

like it wasn't continuous

37:52

tissue. It was like it was being scanned.

37:55

There was like lines of light

37:59

that were almost

38:01

like shooting through her skin

38:07

on one side of her face. I

38:09

tried not to overreact and freak out.

38:13

I just said to myself, there's

38:15

something fucking very

38:18

real here. I

38:20

knew that

38:22

at that point in time, I was seeing it

38:24

for myself. Even

38:27

though I couldn't see the spirit,

38:32

I sought her face to start. I

38:34

knew something

38:36

was

38:37

in my daughter, on my daughter,

38:40

within my daughter,

38:43

attached to my daughter. It

38:46

was scary, very

38:49

scary, but

38:51

this was not my daughter. I

38:56

said, okay, I've got to do something.

38:59

I've got to take matters into

39:01

my own hands and try and find

39:04

someone who is going to

39:06

help me with this because the psychic

39:08

wasn't doing it. This other

39:10

person wasn't available. I

39:15

didn't think the rocks and the crystals and whatever

39:17

we were doing to try and protect Sarah's

39:20

immediate environment was really changing

39:22

anything. I said,

39:24

I've got to get involved and try and find

39:27

somebody. I started

39:30

with the only person, and

39:32

I mean the only person

39:35

that I've ever encountered in

39:38

my career who was

39:40

First Nations, Canadian,

39:43

Indian, whatever you want to call them. There

39:47

was this fellow who worked for me, did

39:51

jobs, demolition jobs. He

39:53

was a window washer by trade. I

39:56

pulled Rob into my office

39:58

one day and I said, forgive me. I don't know

40:00

anyone else to ask. I

40:02

feel really awkward doing this

40:06

because you're the only person I know who's

40:08

First Nations, and I don't know

40:10

who else to start to.

40:12

And I explained the whole situation to him,

40:14

and he was incredibly

40:16

sympathetic and just listening. And

40:23

at the end of the long explanation,

40:26

as I told him what was going on, he said

40:28

that we were told that there

40:30

is definitely a First Nations component

40:33

to this, that the house

40:35

might have been residing on some old

40:37

trading ground. I said, is there

40:39

any chance that you might know somebody?

40:43

And he just looked at me and said, as

40:45

a matter of fact, my brother is

40:48

like a medicine man. And

40:52

I said, wow. He said, Peter,

40:54

leave it with me. We're approaching

40:57

a full moon in the next couple

40:59

of weeks. Leave it with me. Let me contact my

41:01

brother and see if he's willing

41:04

or knows someone who is willing to take it on.

41:07

A week goes by, I hear nothing.

41:10

Then all of a sudden I get a call

41:13

from him out of the blue, and

41:15

he says, okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're

41:19

waiting for the full moon.

41:21

My brother, along

41:24

with his assistant, is

41:27

going to join with you

41:29

and Sarah and Cameron at

41:33

the house. We're

41:36

going to do a full moon

41:38

ritual, basically, where

41:41

we bring in some sacred artifacts. And

41:48

we will burn some sacred

41:50

artifacts and

41:53

then we'll build sacred

41:55

wood, build a fire, build

41:57

a bonfire, and

41:59

then we're gonna have to...

41:59

Sarah and Cameron before

42:02

all of this, and then conduct

42:05

essentially a spiritual

42:07

exorcism

42:09

in

42:12

the house.

42:14

So that

42:16

was it. I basically had

42:18

to wait until the

42:20

full moon. I

42:22

waited for them to call me, and

42:24

of course, eventually, they did.

42:31

The full moon.

42:43

All right, thank you to Sarah's family members

42:45

for speaking to me. Next week is

42:48

going to be the finale of the series. We'll

42:50

be hearing from everyone as they talk

42:52

about what happened on

42:54

the night that all of this came to a head.

42:58

This has been episode 57,

43:01

Many Things, part four, and

43:03

you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld

43:08

is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack

43:10

Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobra

43:12

Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by

43:14

Juice Jekyll and North Americans. This

43:17

episode was edited by Theo Krantz

43:19

and engineered by Theo Schaefer. Our

43:21

artwork is by Cul-De-Sac Studios. Production

43:24

help by Nikki Kate Delgado and

43:26

Haley Parson. Please show us your support, especially

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