0:00

Hello, and welcome back to Out of Office. I'm

0:02

your host Malika Kapoor. Today,

0:04

I'm delighted to bring you one of my favorite

0:07

conversations. It's with John Chambers,

0:09

the former CEO of Cisco, and

0:12

it's stayed with me because of his raw

0:14

candor and that brilliant

0:17

laugh. Take a listen, you'll

0:19

know what I mean. Hi

0:23

there, Welcome back to Out of Office. I'm

0:25

your host, Malika Kapoor. My

0:28

guest today is a legend in

0:30

the tech industry. John Chambers

0:32

is the former CEO and executive

0:34

chairman of Cisco Systems. When

0:37

John joined Cisco in nineteen ninety one,

0:39

it was a small network operator. It

0:42

soon grew into an industry giant

0:44

and became one of the most valuable companies

0:47

in the world.

0:48

We shared our success with our customers

0:50

and our employees. We created ten thousand

0:52

millionaires back when a million dollars could

0:54

buy you a house in Silicon Valley. We

0:57

shared that success across the border. While we were

0:59

from we dreamed

1:01

big.

1:02

John is now the founder and CEO

1:04

of JC two Ventures, which

1:06

focuses on helping disruptive startups

1:09

from around the world build and scale.

1:11

So my goal is how do you get startups

1:14

in all fifty states in the US, in

1:16

all twenty nine states in India, all

1:18

thirteen regions in France, and

1:20

then do it away. It completely transforms

1:23

a geographic region, and how you can

1:25

change the future and disrupt yourself

1:28

and do it away. The benefits

1:31

all of America and a model for others all

1:33

of Europe and a model for others in all of India.

1:35

Dreaming too big? I don't think so.

1:38

He's off to a good start of

1:40

the twenty startups eight hour already

1:42

unicorns. I talked to John

1:45

about his work, about technology,

1:47

his career, leadership, and about

1:49

something else. John places a huge

1:51

premium on culture. Creating

1:54

the right culture at work.

1:56

Well, the culture is one that we treat

1:58

each other's family, that we just

2:00

do the right thing.

2:01

Whether it's in the office, boardroom

2:04

or during a bring your child to work

2:06

day.

2:07

The young lady came up to the stage and was standing

2:09

in a line very patiently, and she

2:11

had her question written on

2:15

paper in the hand. She tried to ask

2:17

it, she couldn't get it out. She tried to ask it again,

2:20

she couldn't get it out, and she

2:22

started to cry, and she

2:24

said, I'm dyslexic. And she turned around

2:26

and headed back to her seat, and

2:29

with five hundred people watching, as you can imagine,

2:31

it was an emotional moment. And I walked

2:33

off the stage and followed

2:35

her back to where she was sitting beside the cord

2:37

of her parents, and I

2:40

said, I'm dyslexic too.

2:42

It was the first time John had gone public

2:45

about his dyslexia. He thought

2:47

he'd made a big mistake. It was

2:49

a turning point for him in his personal

2:51

and professional life.

2:53

And I thought the leaders expected

2:55

me to be invincible, almost

2:58

superhuman. And I thought of people I

3:00

had weaknesses, that they wouldn't

3:02

follow me as much, etc. The

3:05

opposite turned out to be true.

3:06

There's all that and much more in this episode

3:08

of Out of Office with John Chambers.

3:11

Here's our conversation. Great,

3:14

we'll go for about half an hour, and here

3:16

we go. John, Welcome to Out of Office.

3:19

I think it's a pleasure to be with you today. We'll

3:21

try to make this one of your best sessions of the year.

3:23

Oh yeah, excellent. I'm looking forward to that.

3:26

I always dream big, John.

3:28

You know when people hear your name, the moment you

3:30

say John Chambers, the immediate

3:32

reaction is, oh, yes, Cisco. Cisco

3:34

has come to define you, not

3:37

just define your career, but define you. How does

3:39

that sit with you today?

3:41

I'm very, very comfortable with that.

3:44

Cisco is a company that I think did

3:46

change the world the way you work, live, learned, and

3:48

play. And when we said that in the early nineties,

3:51

people said, you don't understand John, You move

3:53

around zeros and ones and it's tew Techi's

3:55

talking. And I said, no, it's going to change

3:58

every aspect of our lives, mainly for the best.

4:00

Now every company is a network company,

4:02

and every company and every country is about to

4:04

become digital, whether you're in India or the US

4:07

or in Europe. And I'm proud,

4:09

very much of what we did at the company. I'm

4:11

very proud of our economic return.

4:14

Most valuable company in the world for a period of

4:16

time, but also number one

4:18

in the corporate social responsibility is recognized

4:20

by President Obama and

4:23

Secretary Clinton or President Bush

4:25

and Secretary Rice. Same

4:28

from China, same from India, same from

4:30

France, etc. And we shared

4:32

our success with our customers and our employees.

4:35

We created ten thousand millionaires. Back when

4:37

a million dollars could buy you a house in Silicon

4:39

Valley. We shared that success

4:41

across the bord and while we were far from perfect,

4:44

we dreamed big, you know. In the Shimon Perez

4:47

taught me an awful lot about no room in the world

4:49

for small dreams. We had

4:51

dreams that others thought were impossible, and yet

4:53

we often executed on them, and

4:56

we won as a team, and we won with an

4:58

ecosystem where we try to have everybody

5:00

in our ecosystem win together. So I'm very

5:02

proud of that, perhaps most proud of the culture

5:06

in terms of what it really means to me and

5:08

to the rest of the organization. Trying to replicate

5:10

it with startups now with twenty startups and startups

5:13

in India, US and France,

5:15

so similar playbook, a different

5:17

chapter of my life.

5:19

You know, as a former chairman and CEO of

5:21

Cisco, and you've had such a long innings

5:23

of the company. You ran it when it became

5:25

one of the most valuable companies in the world.

5:29

Looking back at your time with Cisco, what gives

5:31

you the greatest satisfaction?

5:34

Oh, it's how we change the world, and

5:36

it's our culture getting the economic results

5:39

speak for themselves. Doing fifteen thousand

5:41

percent increase in stock. If you would have put a dollar

5:44

in at the beginning, you would have

5:46

when I exited Cisco been worth fifteen

5:48

thousand dollars, sharing

5:50

that with our customers, employees,

5:52

having the highest customer satisfaction in hot

5:54

tech, getting

5:57

the balance which I think the world's finally waking

5:59

up to. It's about economic returns

6:01

but also benefit to society, and

6:03

we did both in terms of the

6:05

approach. So it

6:08

was the success and sharing that change

6:10

in the world, but also sharing that with

6:12

our employees and our partners and the way you win together.

6:14

I'm surprised more companies don't follow a similar

6:17

model on that, but that's what I'm most

6:19

proud of, but also a model

6:22

that I try to get my twenty startups to follow

6:24

as well.

6:25

Very simply, how would you describe that model?

6:27

It basically is one

6:30

that the leadership has responsibility

6:33

to set the vision and strategy for the company.

6:35

They then build the leadership

6:38

team around that vision and strategy to implement

6:40

it. They define the culture, which

6:42

is watch so many companies around the world, big

6:44

and small, loose track of culture

6:46

is every bit is important as strategy and vision,

6:49

and it veries dramaticly by companies, but great

6:51

companies always have unbelieved to strain culture.

6:53

Strange strong cultures you may like

6:55

them, you may not, but very strong. And

6:58

then it's having the courage to reinvent yourself

7:00

and to constantly change. That's probably the hardest

7:02

part. It's the reason CEO is always

7:04

saying their job at average of five years. Most

7:07

CEOs cannot reinvent themselves. Don't

7:09

understand the importance of it. It takes courage

7:12

to change yourself and as risky in

7:14

terms of the approach is especially if what you're

7:16

doing is right. But Malik,

7:18

they can take away here is that

7:21

doing the right thing too long is equally as bad as doing

7:23

the wrong thing. So having the

7:25

courage to reinvent, catch

7:27

new market transitions enabled by new technologies,

7:30

and then empowering a team

7:32

to make it happen.

7:33

You talk a lot about the culture, the creating the right

7:35

culture at a company, and the culture

7:38

not only the one that you created at Cisco, the one

7:40

that you're trying to create now in your new venture

7:42

JC two Ventures. What's

7:44

that culture?

7:45

Well, the culture is one that we treat

7:47

each other as family, that we just

7:49

do the right thing, that we put

7:51

our customers first that we dring

7:54

big number one or number two. Learn that

7:56

from Jack Welch. So we don't play that.

8:00

We do it an inclusive approach. We

8:02

are an aggressive company, but we also treat

8:05

everybody like with respect. I

8:07

knew every illness a very employee out

8:09

of the seventy five thousand employees there

8:11

was life threatening for them, their spouse, their kids,

8:13

their parents. We were there for them in a

8:15

way that no one else dies was. I still

8:18

get lots of calls even though I've been going for

8:20

seven years about John, can you help me

8:22

with this, Here's what I'm finding out, etc.

8:24

And to really make a difference

8:27

in build that type teamwork and

8:29

change the world is exciting. And so

8:31

that's how describe the culture. But it's one on a

8:34

strategy that the Internet changes the way

8:36

the world works. Lives learned from plays. Put

8:38

your customers and your people first. It

8:40

sounds basic, just do the right thing. If your

8:42

culture's right, it should dictate almost

8:44

every decision you make. And if

8:47

you watch leadership around the world

8:49

in politics or in business, or

8:51

in society, usually

8:54

they lead with their culture and their

8:56

values equally is important to

8:58

their theoretical strategy and goals.

9:01

JC two ventures. You're investing in companies

9:03

around the world, like you just mentioned, even some

9:05

in India, various parts of the world. A

9:08

lot of these tech companies with

9:10

the power to really be extremely

9:13

disruptive.

9:13

Is that right, It's correct. I

9:17

believe in doing playbooks for everything I

9:19

do. We talked briefly earlier before

9:21

we started recording about being dyslexic.

9:24

When I have a playbook, I can operate it, which I'm

9:26

in the speed and instead of being

9:28

bureaucracy and slowing you down, it really

9:30

speeds you up. So I have

9:33

a playbook on key goals and aspirations.

9:35

My reasons on startups, however, might surprise

9:38

your listeners. I've

9:40

achieved more success than

9:42

every dream that would in life, and I

9:44

believe it's time to continue to give back,

9:47

which I think I've done reasonably well on. And

9:50

the future of all job creation, whether

9:52

you're in Asia, US, Europe,

9:55

will be around startups, and

9:57

the big companies because of automation, didzation,

10:00

etc. Will not add headcount.

10:03

It will be a digital world, and people don't quite

10:06

grasp what that means. That means every company, whether

10:08

you're healthcare, manufacturing, tech,

10:11

government, is going to be a tech company

10:13

in terms of the direction, and so my

10:15

goal is, how do you get startups in

10:17

all fifty states in the US, in all

10:20

twenty nine states in India, all thirteen

10:22

regions in France, and then do it

10:24

in the way it completely transforms

10:26

a geographic region, including my home state

10:29

of West Virginia, where we're going to make it the

10:31

first true startup state with regardless

10:33

of political party, a vision of how you can

10:36

change the future and disrupt yourself

10:39

and do it in a way that benefits

10:42

all of America, and a model for others all

10:44

of Europe, and a model for others in all of India.

10:46

Dreaming too big? I don't think so.

10:49

And we're often a pretty good start now. When

10:51

we started, I was a little bit nervous, but so far

10:53

the results have been very good. Twenty startups,

10:56

we've got eight unicorns already, very

10:59

proud of that, and that's almost

11:01

one percent of the US unicorn market, which

11:03

is amazing a very small organization.

11:07

You talk so much about the power of disruption,

11:10

and you said you grew up in West Virginia

11:12

and the area failed

11:15

to disrupt and you saw the consequences

11:17

of that.

11:18

What does that mean? What do you mean by that, well,

11:22

in simple terms, when I was growing up in West

11:24

Virginia, it was the chemical center of the world. FMC

11:27

Carbide do point six thousand

11:29

engineers in Charleston, West Virginia, corporate headquarters,

11:32

just like Silicon Valley. And we were

11:34

the coal mining center of the world with one hundred and twenty

11:36

five thousand well paid coal miners, etc.

11:39

But because we didn't disrupt ourselves,

11:41

because we didn't evolve to

11:43

the next level, we became

11:46

one of the more challenge states

11:48

in the US. And as you

11:50

see that occur, you realize what happens to

11:52

your geography. Now, by the way, we're going to change

11:54

that, and we may want to talk about that later. But

11:57

then I went into and

12:01

into the Boston area

12:04

with Wang, where they

12:06

were the top computer company

12:08

mainframes, IBM, wonderful company. And

12:10

yet because they didn't disrupt themselves, so many

12:13

computers came along, the Wangs of the world. The

12:15

decks they got disrupted, then decks

12:17

and Wang got disrupted by the PC players.

12:20

Then we disrupted the PC server players

12:22

at Cisco with the Internet. Then Cloud

12:24

disrupts that group and one eight

12:27

lost its magic. Around Boston. It was the Silicon

12:29

Valley. But because we didn't change, MIT

12:31

didn't change, the organization, didn't change,

12:34

we got left behind in high tech. And

12:36

now, by the way, Silicon Valley is doing great, but it's

12:39

going to be challenged. If we don't change faster

12:41

in Silicon Valley, it'll be Austin, Texas, or

12:43

it will be Paris, or it'll be Bangalore.

12:45

And that to me is kind of exciting. And

12:47

that's one of the benefits

12:50

of the terrible pandemic we had

12:52

to go through with all the human suffering

12:54

associated with it. We've learned how

12:57

to do things remotely with tremendous speed

12:59

and work virtually, so all of a sudden,

13:01

you don't have to be in a Silicon Valley

13:03

really to participate in major

13:05

tech startups and really make a difference

13:08

in your future.

13:09

What was your childhood like in West Virginia.

13:11

I know you're the son of doctors.

13:14

I was very fortunate. I

13:17

had two parents who were amazing.

13:20

My mom was in

13:22

internal medicine psychiatry, and she

13:25

was a female athlete

13:27

at the time that wasn't as much accepted.

13:29

What sport did she play or was she

13:32

track and field?

13:34

And everything from swimming to lacrosse

13:37

to table tennis, ballroom dancing

13:40

her on it, and she broke a

13:42

lot of gender barriers. And she was

13:44

the one who taught me emotional IQ

13:47

and how to be in touch.

13:49

And she had never let me go to bed angry

13:52

or frustrated. And that's kind of hard

13:54

when you're in high school when they knock on the door and say, hey.

13:58

I have a high schooler. I know I have a high

14:00

school son.

14:01

Yeah, so you know what that's like. And yet

14:04

you're so important to him to be very candid.

14:06

And my dad, he was the visionary. He could

14:08

see things five ten, fifteen years out, delivered

14:11

six thousand babies, about fourth of them

14:13

for free for people that were

14:15

financially challenged on him. But he's

14:17

also a business person. But he taught me never

14:20

to make my first move on the chess game. He taught

14:22

me to do the good ridge the same way. And

14:24

so I'd played out the hand or played out the game

14:26

to the end, and then one of the scenario is

14:28

how do you play it through? And while that slows

14:31

you down at the start, it allows you to move with tremendous

14:33

speed. So he taught me how to see

14:35

what was happening into West Virginia and be

14:37

able to see around the corners. So when

14:39

I saw it at IBM, I knew what was going to happen

14:42

next. When I saw it at WANG in Boston one twenty

14:44

eight, I knew what was going to happen next. When

14:46

I saw the economic slowdown

14:49

coming in two thousand and

14:52

I said, its one hundred year flood. It's going to be much

14:54

worse than we realized, and unfortunately was accurate,

14:57

and in two thousand and eight, with a great recession, learn

15:00

from my mistakes in two thousand and one, I

15:02

disrupted myself. This time saw it coming.

15:05

We called it early in two thousand and seven,

15:07

and we actually economically powered through

15:09

it very strong, including giving

15:13

loans to the automotive companies to purchase

15:16

our equipment, which no other company would do because

15:18

everybody thought they would go out of business

15:20

and go bankrupt. Well, because of how we

15:23

treated them. In two thousand and eight, we

15:26

became the number one player in every automotive

15:28

company in the world. So even though in two

15:30

thousand and one I did a two billion dollar

15:33

right down of inventory because I was carrying

15:35

inventory to meet my customer's need in the Dot com

15:37

bust and I got criticized for it. That's

15:39

fair. That's part of the job of the CEOs

15:42

to take risk and to be candied when

15:44

the risk didn't work out as well as you hope. But I

15:46

learned from it. In two thousand and eight we changed what's the

15:48

key takeaway constantly we emit

15:50

yourself constantly learn and

15:53

the other takeaway from parents being doctors

15:56

under tremendous pressure. It's easy to say, but

15:58

you got to really stay calm. He can't hide.

16:01

My dad taught me that when I almost drowned

16:03

at six years of age and a river

16:05

in West Virginia and we were

16:07

fishing, and he told

16:10

me to fish one part of the river, and he said, don't get

16:12

out in the stream. It's unbelievably fast here. It's

16:14

dangerous, and even though you're a pretty good swimmer for six

16:16

years of age, this could be a problem.

16:19

And he went a couple hundred yards upstream. And

16:21

what did I do. I stepped out in the current.

16:24

After about fifteen minutes got swept away

16:27

and it was scary, and

16:29

he yelled at me. I could hear him coming down the river

16:31

as fast as he could run on the side hold onto the fishing

16:33

pole. Hold onto the fishing pole. Well,

16:35

it was an an expensive

16:38

fishing pole, might have cost five dollars.

16:41

But because he was concerned about the fishing

16:43

pole, I grabbed a hold of the fishing pole

16:45

with both hands, and I was getting banged

16:47

up against the rocks and tumbled it

16:49

and everything else. And he kept saying, hold on the fishing pole

16:51

when I'm going down the current. He finally

16:54

got below me, swam out, got me, brought me back

16:56

in and I handed him the fishing

16:58

pole and he's said, do you understand

17:01

what just about having? I said, yeah, I

17:03

thought I was going to drown, but obviously you told me to

17:05

take care of the fishing boss I did. He said,

17:08

no, if you were in trouble,

17:10

but because you stayed focused, because

17:13

you were calm under crisis, you

17:15

came through it. And then I don't think you ever

17:17

told mom this. He took me back up river and

17:20

said, I'm going to put you in the river again, and this time you're

17:22

going to do it yourself.

17:23

Oh my god.

17:24

I went right down through the current, right

17:27

to the edge, waited till there was a spot

17:29

to come out, got back out. But it taught

17:31

me how do you deal with crisis in life and

17:34

the stories that your viewers remember.

17:36

That's something I tell again and again, and

17:39

it's espatially important now because

17:41

many of the companies are going to be in trouble this next year

17:44

that are watching this. The economy

17:46

is going to slow. No one knows how much We've

17:48

got more headwinds that I've ever seen in my

17:51

lifetime in terms of complexity geopolitical

17:53

with Russia China. You've

17:55

got inflation the people haven't seen in forty

17:58

years. You've got a FED that's trying

17:59

to make a soft landing in the US.

18:02

I would take this soft landing like the pala

18:05

to landed a plane in Florida the other day, who had never

18:07

flown a plane right, Yes, around

18:10

the runway. It's a good landing, and

18:13

take that. Uh. And you've got supply

18:15

chain issues all at one time. So it's going to be

18:17

complex, and so you've got to keep

18:19

calm during this, and you've got to develop your

18:21

playbook for how you're going to handle it. And

18:24

as you do this, it'd be a terrible

18:26

mistake. You hear the message you ever waste

18:28

of crisis. There's a lot of truth to it.

18:30

When you have a problem, and we're going to have one.

18:33

In the degree they usually are longer and deeper

18:35

than you think. You say, what am I going to do

18:37

to deal with it? And you address both what

18:40

the micro issue is, which is clearly some pretty

18:42

good headwinds, but you address you've

18:44

probably been stagnant too long yourself. You

18:47

haven't changed, so what do you have to do differently?

18:49

So well run companies will say, you

18:51

know, here's what I'm going to do on the micro issue,

18:53

but being very candidate, areas that I need to do

18:55

better, and here's what I'm

18:58

going to do to do them better. Companies whose say

19:00

this is all micro, I'm doing fine, don't worry

19:02

about me, probably had blinders

19:04

on and could get into trouble pretty quickly. So

19:06

you want to do both at the same time. That's what I

19:08

trained my startups to do, and that unfortunately,

19:11

I've seen every movie there is to see a cisco multiple

19:13

times. People say, how do you know, Well, I

19:16

did it right a couple of times, and I

19:18

did it wrong other times. Since I've seen a movie

19:20

for the alternities and teaching, that is

19:22

fine, and I guess that's something we didn't hit earlier.

19:25

I love to teach. I'm a mentor at

19:27

heart. I love to try to change the world.

19:29

I'm a dreamer peace to the Middle East. Won

19:32

the National Defense Go

19:35

Medal from France, first non

19:37

French business person ever to have won

19:39

that. Very honored

19:41

about the Corporate Social Responsibilities

19:43

and the PODMA Vision Award from

19:45

Prime Minister Motives government in

19:48

India, which is a very unique award for that

19:50

part of the world, as you know, and deeply honored

19:52

for that. So that's what I enjoy doing.

19:55

You've been very open about having dyslexia,

19:58

and I know you just decided to go

20:00

public about it and started talking about

20:03

it after after a moment

20:05

at take your child to work

20:08

day? Yes, can you tell

20:10

us a little bit about that and what happened that

20:12

day?

20:13

Well, anybody who's dyslexic would tell

20:15

you it makes you feel dumb. You

20:18

lose your place as you read, as they come down

20:20

the classroom to ask you to read. Because thisslexics

20:22

read right to left, we superimpose

20:25

numbers. It's the reason to this

20:27

day I never read speeches. I do speeches from

20:29

an outline and try to talk spontaneous

20:31

to the audience where it's ten thousand people or ten

20:34

people inters of

20:36

the direction. And because

20:39

I had a wonderful teacher,

20:41

spatial teacher when they didn't even understand

20:44

dyslexia, but she understood

20:46

learning disorders. She missus

20:48

Anderson taught me over three years how to deal

20:50

with it. And it doesn't go away,

20:53

but you can you learn how to compensate.

20:56

And so take our child to workday the

20:59

trial, and they grill you with questions and

21:02

it makes me sweat even today. With the kids, they

21:05

have no idea what. You don't

21:07

know what they're going to ask you. And often you can

21:09

hear the questions the parents told them to ask as

21:12

well, and it's just a great cultural

21:14

exchange to answer that. But a

21:16

young lady came up to the stage and was standing in the line

21:19

very patiently, and she had her

21:21

question written on

21:23

her paper in the hand.

21:26

She tried to ask it, she couldn't get it out. She

21:28

tried to ask it again, she couldn't get it

21:30

out, and she started to cry

21:33

and she said, I'm dyslexic. And she

21:35

turned around and headed back to her seat,

21:38

and with five hundred people watching,

21:40

as you can imagine, it was an emotional moment. And

21:43

I walked off the stage and

21:45

followed her back to where she was sitting beside

21:47

born of her parents, and I

21:50

said, I'm dyslexic too, And

21:53

here's how you get the question out. And

21:55

you can't memorize it because you'll lose track of it

21:57

and don't read it. But look at it just like

22:00

you're talking to your parent, you're talking to me, and

22:02

visualize what you want to do. Look into the person's

22:05

eyes and have it like a conversation, and

22:08

you can get through that. And

22:11

I said, let's go back a couple of the stage. I asked the question

22:14

again. As I walked back up, the room was strangely

22:16

quiet, and I realized I'd left

22:18

my lava eer mic on. So I

22:21

had told

22:23

people what I thought was my biggest weakness

22:25

in life, something

22:27

that even now my hands swept. And if you talk

22:29

to dyslexics, they would tell you most of us. And

22:31

I was riding in the car watching the ball game with another

22:34

dyslexics last night, and you can

22:37

spot each other because of your thought process

22:39

on it. So the four of us were there with two dyslexics

22:42

on it. You have

22:44

to approach it differently to be able

22:46

to deal with it, so I

22:50

she asked the question. It was great. I gave

22:52

a great answer, complimented her. She

22:54

went away feeling good, which is what it was all about.

22:57

We talked culture, we treat everybody

22:59

the same as still we watch out for our family

23:02

on it. But I thought I'd

23:05

made a major mistake. And I

23:07

thought the leaders expected me to be invincible,

23:11

almost superhuman, and

23:14

we did things that no other company could do,

23:16

and we did them regularly. And I thought

23:18

of people knew I had weaknesses, that

23:21

they wouldn't follow me as much, etc. The

23:24

opposite turned out to be true. I got more responses

23:27

from that session that I had any session

23:29

ever at Cisco, with people

23:31

saying I appreciate your honesty,

23:35

you're transparency. I'm dyslexic, or

23:37

my children are dyslexic, or John,

23:39

you connected with me. I saw a side that I

23:41

hadn't seen before, and

23:43

so I thought, good, good deed. I'm

23:46

fine. You know, it's like doing an interview with you. If I

23:48

walk away at the end and I didn't get skimmed on

23:50

something, I feel that's that's very positive.

23:54

But then a person called me up in Fortune

23:56

and said, John, I want to do an article

23:58

on you. And Chuck Schwab

24:01

and Richard Branson and three leaders

24:03

who are dyslexic, and no one's rewritten

24:05

about it. And I said, no, I don't

24:07

want to talk on that. I'm honored, but

24:10

it makes me uncomfortable when I actually considered

24:12

the weakness and she said my son's

24:14

dyslexi.

24:16

The generalist mean.

24:18

She had me on them, and so I

24:20

talked to him and I said, all right, I'll do the article. And

24:22

so since then I have been honored

24:25

to talk about dyslexia

24:27

very openly to individual dyslexics,

24:29

which I do on a regular basics to

24:33

leadership. It will surprise you, Malika,

24:36

almost thirty percent of CEOs are DYSLEXI.

24:38

Almost none of them will admit to it. And

24:40

the only reason I know the number is because I can

24:42

spot them on the thought prior pattern. And

24:44

so we're having a conversation, if we're by ourselves

24:47

or with a small group, I will at the right point

24:49

in time very gently say are you dyslexic?

24:52

And they'll look at me like, how did you know? I

24:55

don't tell people, but I can see the

24:57

thought process. Dyclexics go ABZ.

25:00

They gather data from multiple areas

25:02

then they can't do it serially, but

25:04

they picture how it all comes together, and

25:07

if they are able to overcome

25:10

that, they can perhaps move

25:12

with the speed and a vision that serial

25:15

entrepreneurs may not be able to do as well. So

25:17

you take a weakness trying to make it a strength.

25:19

Would I prefer not to be dyslexic, of course,

25:22

but you deal with life the way it

25:24

is, not the way you wish it was. And my parents

25:26

taught me that.

25:28

What a story. And I'm just

25:30

sitting here thinking, I can only imagine

25:32

what it did to that girl, the

25:34

young lady who came up on stage and had

25:36

to say I'm dyslexic, I mean in front

25:38

of five hundred people, and

25:40

then having you reach out to her and

25:43

give her that support and confident it must have been

25:45

the world to her. Looking

25:47

back, What did it mean

25:50

to you to be able to support her

25:52

like that?

25:53

Well, first, on the transactional level,

25:56

it made me very comfortable with talking to other

25:58

dyslexics who need help because your

26:00

parents will always tell you you're smart, and

26:03

the parents don't have any credibility. As you know, with your

26:05

teenage son, and you

26:08

always tell him that he's smart and he's

26:11

handsome and he's a good athlete,

26:13

and so we have parents don't have that credibility.

26:16

Same thing with my kids who are now I'm

26:18

your grandfather, but the

26:21

ability to share

26:23

with them what it's like, that

26:25

you understand the fear, you

26:27

understand how they think, and they

26:29

need role models and example posts

26:32

that have been able to navigate through it. Again, I'm far from perfect,

26:34

but they want to see people that can do it,

26:37

and then they believe they can perhaps do

26:39

it. And you talk them through what the fear is like, and

26:42

you know what it feels like in your stomach when that

26:44

fear hits you, on space,

26:47

you when you're speaking in public or trying to read a speech.

26:50

And then you watch them progress.

26:52

And so you and I had three people

26:54

who were dyslexi this year graduate

26:58

from college and all

27:00

three originally we're struggling with first would

27:02

they go to college and secondly unlikely to

27:04

get into a very good college. All three of them got into great

27:06

colleges. But they just dropped me a

27:08

note at the end and said just thank you. You make a difference.

27:11

And of course the parent it means the world, because we want

27:13

to do anything we can do to help our children

27:16

on that and all we want to do is be healthy

27:18

and happy in life.

27:19

Did it make you sort of feel more comfortable

27:21

to be able to lead with empathy?

27:24

Two separate questions. Did

27:27

DYSLEXI make me more comfortable

27:30

to lead with people knowing I'm a dyslexic dancers?

27:33

No, because right now my hands

27:35

are still sweating. It makes

27:37

me uncomfortable even to talk about it. Did

27:40

it teach me never to laugh at anybody

27:42

else? Absolutely,

27:45

Malika, And all my years of leadership,

27:47

I've never raised my voice ever,

27:51

and make no mistake

27:53

about it. If you ask my team, you asked

27:55

Megan. I have very high expectations.

27:57

I expect her to a home run every time,

28:00

and she almost

28:02

never disappoints, and when she does, I'll gently

28:04

say, hey, this is something we could have done better, but I expect

28:06

it back the other way. So

28:09

leading with empathy, I would say yes, And that's

28:11

my mom teaching me as well. And

28:14

it's amazing how many people don't treat

28:17

other people well in space she is they've been successful,

28:19

they become over confident and don't listen.

28:21

You learn from everyone and we're all equal in life,

28:24

and so that connectivity is

28:26

something that I do, and I take risk on it. You

28:28

and I form friendships with

28:32

government leaders around the world, like Prime Minister

28:34

Modi is a very good friend. President

28:36

Macrone in France is a very good friend.

28:38

I'm in French's ambassador, you

28:41

know, and leaders George Bush,

28:44

Bill Clinton throughout the years,

28:46

but also people that are just individuals

28:49

that I formed tight friendships with. So it

28:51

teaches you to connect if you have the

28:54

courage to let

28:56

down your guard and to be exposed, and

28:59

then when you do, that allows somebody else to con

29:01

act. And then an empathy story

29:04

that surprises people is

29:07

that most of us men

29:10

have trouble telling somebody other than our spouse

29:12

that we love them, and definitely have trouble

29:14

giving somebody a hug. And I

29:16

was in that mode and I

29:19

had the chance. I went to Duke

29:22

West Virginia, Indiana school nine and a half years

29:24

of college wherever they had a good basketball team.

29:27

But I was there at Duke with

29:29

coaches Esque who happened to go to school at

29:32

the same place I did at IU, and I

29:34

ran the NBA Association there

29:36

and he was of course on the Bobby

29:38

Knight's basketball team as

29:41

an assistant for an NBA

29:43

school and we form friendships.

29:46

But he asked me many years later

29:48

I would follow Duke and go to the games to

29:51

be a part of the

29:54

team. Dinner the night before they played

29:56

Stanford, and Duke was one and Stanford was

29:58

two, and it was a big national TV

30:01

and they were kind of enough to go great seats.

30:04

But he said, your assignment is to teach the number

30:07

six player. He's going to start in place

30:09

of his roommate, who's the number five

30:11

player, because it's the right matchup for

30:13

us, and John, I want you to teach him. It's

30:15

about the team winning, it's

30:17

about doing what's right in total. And

30:20

he was hesitant because he did not want to hurt his roommate.

30:23

And I get that. And so in

30:25

the first fifteen minutes of dinner there were two tables.

30:27

I accomplished my goal and I was watching

30:30

and listening. And these were big

30:32

guys, I mean huge, tremendous

30:35

athletes and

30:37

very very physical. You know, they

30:39

played, they played tough, and they

30:42

were talking about how they loved each other, how

30:46

they cared for each other, and

30:48

they gave each other really hugs. This

30:51

was at a time that a lot of people didn't do that.

30:54

And afterward coach k said, well,

30:56

John, what do you think? And I said, tremendous

30:58

culture, teamwork, I did assignment

31:00

like you told me, etc. I don't think

31:02

this team is quite tough enough, Mike.

31:06

They may not be

31:08

tough enough to get what you wanted. This year

31:12

it turned out to be a national championship team,

31:14

most physical center.

31:18

They were amazing. And so I learned

31:21

that expression your emotions, whether it's a dyslexia

31:24

to the young lady, whether it's to my family

31:26

telling him I love them. Wanted to hug my kids a hundred

31:29

times a day again if they let me

31:31

in, which of course they won't. Then

31:34

with people that I really care about, having the courage

31:36

to say I love you and always

31:39

saying if you believe it, and having the courage

31:41

to hug, and that's tough.

31:43

With COVID today, we've got to obviously adjust

31:46

appropriately. But there's one

31:48

that I never thought would exactly

31:51

turn out the way it did. But it's why you've got to constantly

31:53

learn. And it's interesting

31:57

when you give another guy a hug, they kind of look

31:59

at you at first like interesting, and

32:01

then all of a sudden you watch them learn. You

32:03

watch them learn to let down the guard,

32:06

tell people you care, tell your employees you care,

32:08

let them know that you have weaknesses. Apologize

32:11

when you make your strength. Don't raise your voice.

32:13

Yan, When I get my competitors

32:16

emotional and get them

32:19

angry or scared, it's game over, got

32:22

it, be just calm you execute

32:24

well. And maybe I'm a little bit too, Patty.

32:26

I do love to compete, as you probably already

32:28

figured out. And I believe in building

32:31

number one. Teams number one and number two

32:33

don't come to the party.

32:36

And you believe in being nice, in the power of

32:38

being nice and in love. And that's such a beautiful

32:40

note to end this conversation on. So thank

32:42

you so much, John for joining me. I

32:44

mean, in all these times, yeah, I've

32:47

never heard someone talk so openly and warmly

32:49

and passionately just about love and

32:51

that it's okay to hug and it's okay

32:54

to be nice. I really appreciate

32:56

it. Thank you so much.

32:57

Well, it's teachable, as

33:00

Megan will tell you. With my teams,

33:03

they learn it now. It takes some of them a couple

33:05

of years to learn it, and then

33:08

some of them are hesitant. And you

33:10

can't be somebody you're not but Megan will have you.

33:12

Out of my twenty CEOs, probably

33:15

what would you say, three four seven have

33:17

done very well on culture and

33:20

very well about sharing

33:22

their thoughts, still in a very professional

33:24

manner, but remaking

33:27

a difference. And that's what I love as a mentor. You

33:29

all of a sudden go they were listening, just

33:31

like, yes, we actually

33:33

listened to me.

33:36

That's right, exactly. Well, thank

33:38

you so much. It's been a real, real pleasure

33:40

to talk to you.

33:40

I wish you continued success. You were perfect.

33:43

It was so relaxing to follow you.

33:46

That was my conversation with John Chambers,

33:48

and I hope you enjoyed it as much as

33:50

I did recording it. We'll

33:52

be back in two weeks. Till then, do check

33:54

out some of the other episodes out of Office.

33:57

You find us on Spotify, Apple Podcast,

34:00

Bloomberg Terminal, and Bloomberg dot Com.

34:02

This episode was produced by Yang Yang. I'm

34:04

Alika Kapool. As always, thank

34:07

you for listening.