0:04

Hello, and welcome back to Out of Office.

0:06

I'm your host Malika Kapoor. This

0:08

week Mark Lore, the former

0:11

head of Walmart's e commerce business who's

0:13

turned the retailer's once clunky

0:16

website into a viable challenger

0:18

to Amazon. Since leaving

0:20

Walmart in January, Mark has gone

0:22

back to his entrepreneurial roots, launching

0:24

a venture capital firm with the baseball

0:27

legend Alex Rodriguez, buying

0:29

a stake in the Minnesota Timberwolves

0:31

basketball team, and, in

0:33

his most audacious project, trying

0:36

to build a five million person city

0:39

from scratch under a new form

0:41

of communist capitalism.

0:43

If that sounds like a lot, know that

0:46

Lore has been juggling multiple side

0:48

hustles since he was a teenager in

0:50

New Jersey. Mark spoke to

0:52

my colleague Matthew Boyle, our senior management

0:54

and workplace reporter. Here's a conversation,

1:02

So, Mark, welcome to Out

1:04

of Office. It's it's it's great to have you.

1:06

Thank you happy to be here. Yeah, So,

1:08

Mark, I wanted to start off with UM. Usually

1:11

my questions for you were around, you know, profit

1:13

margins for e commerce. But we're gonna have a little

1:15

different conversation today. Hopefully

1:17

want a little bit more expansive. Um.

1:20

I was hoping we could maybe start at

1:22

at the beginning. I mean, you were born in Staten Island

1:24

and then you moved to to Jersey

1:27

Lyncroft, New Jersey. I'd love

1:29

to know. I mean, what are some of your most sort

1:31

of vivid memories of of growing

1:33

up in Jersey. Yeah, well,

1:36

um, you know, and Staten Island was

1:38

very uh it's not a very diverse

1:41

neighborhood that we grew up in. I'm Catholic

1:44

Italian and that's basically you had that

1:46

in Irish Catholic, you know, in

1:48

the entire neighborhood. And for

1:50

the first ten years of my life, I didn't know anyone that wasn't

1:53

sort of Italian or Irish.

1:55

Um, it was a very homogeneous sort of community.

1:58

Um. You know, my parents had me when they were

2:01

twenty and nineteen years old, and

2:03

and uh we lived very modest means

2:05

there in Staten Island, and uh,

2:08

you know, it's just a very uh humble

2:11

beginning. I guess you can say, you know, I

2:12

I can relate, I think, and most of my friends

2:15

were just most of my friends were Irish and Italian

2:17

growing up in in Westchester as

2:19

well in the in the late seventies early eighties.

2:22

Um. You have told us before, though, Mark,

2:24

that your your parents sort of fought a lot.

2:26

How did that impact you as a kid, and also

2:28

how did it influence sort of how you

2:30

treat others as a boss. Oh, yeah,

2:32

that's funny. I've never got to ask that question, but it is

2:35

definitely has influenced my leadership

2:39

style. So yeah, I mean I did

2:41

did witness that a lot, a lot of fighting and

2:44

arguing and things growing up. And I was always

2:46

the I was the oldest in the family, have a younger brother

2:48

and sister. I was sort of the peacemaker um

2:50

and trying to um,

2:52

you know, get both sides to a

2:55

common ground in a good place and keep

2:58

peace. And you

3:00

know, just developed I think, you know, uh,

3:03

an extraordinary feel for people

3:07

and reading people, and and that

3:09

translated into you know, having empathy

3:11

and and uh. And so I think

3:13

I think I'm a little non traditional when it comes

3:16

to CEO leaders and things,

3:18

and that I do lead with what sort

3:20

of empathy uh

3:22

as a starting place. I mean, we're hearing a lot more about

3:24

empathy these days, Mark, obviously, but most leaders

3:27

in the technology space are known more for let's

3:29

say their intensity. You know, Steve Jobs

3:31

famously volatile, Bill Gates

3:34

throwing tantrums at Microsoft, and of course

3:36

Jeff Bezos, you know, sort of exploding

3:38

at at underlings who failed to meet

3:40

his his standards. I mean,

3:42

you've you're, you're kind of known more for being more

3:44

sort of even keeled um

3:46

in your approach, but even you, I

3:49

mean, do you ever fly off the handle at times? What

3:51

sets you off? I never fly off the handle, which

3:54

maybe maybe it's a fault, you know. I mean I

3:57

I can take a lot, absorb a lot,

3:59

you know, and uh, I always can see

4:02

where where people coming from and set you

4:04

up. Sometimes you could be taking advantage of just

4:06

just because you know, you

4:08

know, you could sort of excuse any type

4:11

of behavior at some at

4:13

some you know, to some extent, and so

4:15

being able to, you know, as you get older, being able

4:18

to balance that and know what you

4:20

know, when it's it's it's truly required

4:23

you to to feel and

4:25

show empathy and other times when

4:27

it's it's okay to to make some

4:29

some hard decisions that need to be made, but

4:31

still being able to do it in a in a kind

4:33

way. So Mark we often hear that people

4:35

are sort of born entrepreneurs. I

4:37

mean, your life kind of illustrates that when you

4:39

were when you were six, you were charging family

4:41

members five cents to watch Casper, their

4:44

friendly ghost on a slide projector, and you're

4:46

borrowing money from your parents to buy stocks.

4:49

As a teenager, you know, you sold your first

4:51

company to Tops, your second company to Amazon,

4:53

and then your third to to Walmart. As we all

4:55

know, Um, do you think they can

4:58

entrepreneurs and be taught and

5:00

if so, how would you teach it? I mean, I've thought

5:02

about this a lot. I don't think you can really teach it.

5:05

But I think there are a lot of people out there

5:07

that are an entrepreneurs or didn't know they were entrepreneurs,

5:09

and they actually would make great entrepreneurs. So

5:12

a lot of it is sort of the mindset,

5:15

you know, the ability. A

5:17

lot of it comes down to the ability to to take

5:19

risk and work hard and

5:22

and work hard and have conviction

5:25

in the face of others telling you it's a

5:27

bad idea or it's not going to work. So

5:29

it's that's that's sort of tenacity,

5:32

you know. But but it's that combined with the risk

5:34

taking so, um, you have to be willing

5:36

to take risk and be able

5:38

to move when you don't

5:40

know what step. You know, make the first

5:43

step, but you know what steps two, three, four, or five

5:45

look like. There are a lot of people that just need

5:47

to know all the steps before they engage in step

5:50

one, and that's not how entrepreneurship

5:52

works. And so you have to be that type of

5:54

person that's willing to just jump and

5:56

have faith that it's going to work out if

5:59

you if you you've at it. And how

6:01

do you identify that and others? Because, as you said, some

6:03

people might have it, but not really No, So

6:05

I'm sure you'd love to work alongside

6:07

those types of people. Um,

6:10

how do you identify Because you've obviously worked

6:12

alongside several people, um,

6:14

in in many various entities throughout

6:16

your career, you certainly have a cadre of people

6:19

that you feel comfortable with. Um,

6:21

what did you identify in those types of people that

6:23

made you say, Hey, these are people I want to stick with.

6:26

Yeah, well, I think it's a little bit different whether

6:28

you're sort of a pure founder and

6:30

you're out on your own and you have to have

6:33

have the vision, raise the capital

6:35

and hire the people, and that's like different than

6:38

you know, hiring people that are entrepreneurial,

6:41

you know into a startup. Um,

6:44

it's kind of two different types of people. I don't think

6:46

the people that you hire in necessarily

6:48

need to be as as much of

6:50

a risk taker, but they do need to be comfortable

6:53

with change and ambiguity.

6:57

UM. So a lot of that. You know, in a startup.

7:00

It's not like, Okay, here's the plan and then we just

7:02

stick to it. No, the plan. New

7:04

information happens every day and you have to readjust

7:06

the plan according to the new information. Some people are uncomfortable

7:09

with that. Um. Um.

7:11

You also have to be um,

7:13

you know comfortable uh,

7:15

you know, being scrappy and

7:18

you know, not having a big organization and

7:20

be able to roll up the sleeves and do things yourself

7:22

and obviously work hard. Um.

7:25

The spot spotic is an acronym

7:27

I use for the types of people I think do well

7:29

in startups and they're smart,

7:32

passionate, optimistic. That's a

7:34

key being being positive because

7:36

you have any sort of negative. There's plenty of things

7:38

to be negative about the start up because a

7:40

lot of things early on don't

7:42

seem like they're working in most cases and then

7:45

until they do work. And so you have to be optimistic

7:47

to get through that tenacity, adaptability,

7:50

and then kindness and empathy. Tell

7:53

me about some of those the early days that like a Quincy

7:56

for example. You you you found in Quincy,

7:58

which of course is known forepers dot com,

8:01

the customer facing site, in two thousand

8:03

five and and we had our first kid in two

8:06

thousand six and another in two thousand and

8:08

eight, so we were huge customers of yours.

8:10

I remember getting my diapers dot my

8:12

diapers dot com delivered to me at work,

8:15

um, because we couldn't get it at our

8:17

house, in our our apartment in Brooklyn.

8:20

Um. I mean Quincy was really known though,

8:22

for a keen understanding of what

8:24

customers wanted, specifically parents. How

8:27

did you and your team sort of figure out in those

8:29

early days what sort of personal

8:32

touches, what services would

8:34

really resonate with with customers.

8:37

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it was just you know,

8:39

intuition, um.

8:41

And you know, I had a

8:43

newborn baby actually at that time, I

8:45

had two kids. Uh. And

8:47

and you know, you go through as a parent what

8:49

every parent dies, the frustrations

8:52

of trying to get all the stuff

8:54

that you need for for the babies

8:56

and toddlers and things. And it's

8:58

not like it's not a great experiences and uh,

9:01

you know, these are commodity goods, and so it seemed

9:03

only natural that if you can deliver them, you know,

9:06

timely, fast, good

9:08

prices, that there'd be a really big market

9:10

for it. The problem was you couldn't make money doing it,

9:13

um and that was sort of the catch and why it had

9:15

not been done until diapers

9:17

dot com. But we've viewed it as you

9:19

know, diapers were a lost leader for brick

9:21

and mortar to drive traffic and parents

9:23

into the stores to buy everything else. While

9:25

on the internet, if you can drive people to the store

9:28

to buy everything else, it's literally everything

9:30

else, that's just the hundred

9:33

thousand products in the store. So

9:35

actually you could afford to lose more money. That was

9:37

the high level thesis and it proved

9:39

proved out um, but a

9:41

lot of it was not. It wasn't if you ask

9:44

customers what they want, they

9:46

often don't know until you show it to

9:48

them. And so a little bit is just taking

9:50

a leap and uh and

9:52

and pivoting if if need be. How

9:55

did you come up like but I remember that you have like thirty

9:57

seven thirty seven different types of boxes.

10:00

Right. Was that a quitcy or was that a jed?

10:03

I forget which one, but that was a

10:05

quizy, right, So you know that's involves

10:07

a lot of analysis, I imagine, and you've

10:09

you've always been a numbers guy for sure, but

10:12

um, you know, how did you think it's sort of come up

10:14

with something like that, or how did you figure out, Okay,

10:16

this is really what's gonna matter, this is one of the things that

10:18

might move. Yes, it's a commodity

10:20

of a little margin business, and we wanted to have a competitive

10:23

advantage. And so how do you you know, uh,

10:25

you eke out a little margin here and there, and

10:28

we're shipping these diapers and these big boxes

10:31

diapers and wipes and things, and

10:33

you're paying ups and fed x more

10:36

for empty space in the box, and

10:38

you're paying more for the core get the boxes bigger,

10:41

and so we saw an opportunity to save considerable

10:43

amount of money to get the optimal

10:45

sized box with as little air as possible

10:47

and a little as core get as possible. And there was significant

10:50

savings to do that, both in shipping

10:52

and packaging, and so and

10:55

so Yeah, so we really invested in the analytics

10:57

to sort of, um build these

10:59

algorie of them is to figure out what we called

11:01

it box and how to how to box a

11:04

certain set of items and the smallest box

11:06

possible, and then to have all those boxes

11:08

available in whereas a lesson that

11:10

some some other e commerce companies could still

11:13

maybe learn here. Um

11:15

Mark, you once told this that you were obsessed

11:17

with Amazon's culture, but you certainly

11:19

didn't adopt all of their practices at

11:21

the companies you you founded. What

11:24

elements of their culture

11:26

do you think worked or did you maybe want

11:29

to incorporate and which ones did you really

11:31

want to sort of avoid? Yeah,

11:33

I mean I wasn't you know, it didn't

11:35

The culture didn't really resonate with me too

11:38

much because of what you said before,

11:40

sort of the softer the softer side of things

11:42

and being kindness and skills like that.

11:45

We're not, uh what kind of look

11:47

down upon Um. I think that that

11:49

the key it really came to. It wasn't that people

11:52

weren't necessarily kind of empathetic maybe in their day

11:54

to day life, but I think in terms of the business

11:57

culture, it was one that felt

12:00

like social cohesion got

12:02

to the wrong answer that if if you basically

12:04

treated people will kind of empathetic

12:07

in a group setting, that you'll lead

12:09

to a suboptimal decision um,

12:11

which may be the case, like

12:14

if you look at it purely on that specific

12:16

decision, but if you take a step back and think

12:18

about the broader implications of the

12:21

culture, the types of people and the talent

12:23

you're able to recruit there, and

12:25

you know how people feel. I think if

12:27

you want to get the best out of people, you want them to

12:29

be happy and really feel safe

12:31

to bring their their best to work every

12:34

day, and so maybe you get better

12:36

decisions made on a decision

12:38

by decision basis, but you're not. You

12:40

don't get the best that people have to give because

12:42

they don't feel safe. So it's a little

12:44

bit I mean, you can make an argument on both sides. I'm

12:47

in more of the social cohesion camp

12:49

um and the sort of long term investing in people,

12:52

But I don't say that when it comes

12:54

to culture, there's really no wrong answer

12:57

if the culture is consistent. The worst

13:00

type of culture is inconsistent, Like one

13:03

day your social casion, the next day you're not social

13:05

region people. You don't then then who

13:07

do you hire? Do you hire this person that either

13:10

person will be unhappy. Amazon was

13:12

able to create a very consistent culture where

13:15

they were able to hire people that

13:17

worked really well in that in that system,

13:20

and so that's why I think they've they've

13:22

done well. But it's not a system

13:24

or culture that I would choose necessarily.

13:27

And I haven't you talk about culture being consistent

13:29

though, Mark, I mean, obviously the pandemic has made

13:31

that a lot harder to maintain a

13:33

consistent culture. And there's ongoing pretty

13:36

fierce debates right now around the you

13:38

know the impact of remote work,

13:40

and many managers and ceo say

13:43

that a more remote workforce hurts

13:45

culture by making it harder to you know,

13:47

mentor new employees, or people

13:49

lose those informal connections around the water

13:51

cooler, that cohesion you speak

13:53

of. But there's plenty of research that says remote

13:56

workers are just as productive, if not more often

13:58

more engaged, particular really women, parents,

14:01

and underrepresented minorities when they're working

14:03

remotely. Um, what I mean,

14:05

what's your take? Where do you come down on

14:07

the debate over remote work? And

14:10

and again, you know, repercussions that

14:12

can have on the consistency

14:14

of a culture. Yeah, I think. I

14:16

mean, I've always believed in giving people

14:18

the flexibility if they can't

14:21

make it in the office for whatever reason on a particular

14:23

day or day of the week or things,

14:25

you know, they have family obligations or

14:28

things like that. I think that's always, you

14:30

know, the right answer when it

14:32

comes to just generally, you know,

14:34

this idea of of work from home,

14:36

you can you can have a similar culture. I don't. I don't

14:38

believe in that. I do think there's

14:41

magic when everybody's in the same place,

14:44

feeding off each other's energy, you're

14:46

building relationships. I think I've

14:48

seen numerous situations where

14:50

people have have left companies,

14:53

um, simply because they hadn't built

14:56

a relationship with their leader and

14:58

you know, because they've been remote, and

15:01

you sort of like forget how important

15:03

those relationships are. Because many

15:05

times people um,

15:07

you know, stay in a company and want to give

15:09

the best they've got because they

15:11

really respect and believe in their

15:14

leader. Um. And if if you

15:16

don't have you know, quality time with that person

15:19

on a day to day basis in person, it's very

15:21

hard to develop that type of relationship

15:23

and that type of loyalty that comes with it. So what I'm seeing

15:25

is people seem to be much

15:28

more flighty in terms of moving company

15:30

to company because there isn't that um

15:33

camaraderie and that sort of uh

15:35

sense of purpose and and belonging

15:38

that happens when when everyone's together in the

15:40

trenches together. What were

15:42

your first impressions of a big corporate

15:44

culture you were part of Mark Walmart's um,

15:47

you know, when you arrive there, what did

15:49

you make of it? I've always kind of wanted to

15:51

ask you this, and you may have been a bit

15:53

limited before and being able to answer, But

15:55

what were your, you know, your real first impressions of

15:57

of Walmart's corporate culture and did

15:59

you think you were able to change

16:02

it even incrementally in the in the years

16:04

you spent there. I mean, I like to

16:06

believe that, you know, it wasn't just me, but the whole

16:08

Jet team infused in did

16:11

did have a positive impact on the culture. I think,

16:14

you know, what I learned and I think some of

16:16

the team members as well, is how

16:19

incredible, um uh the

16:21

folks at Walmart art and operating you

16:24

know, like just absolute like maniacal

16:26

focus on the details and operating

16:29

the business and day in and day out

16:31

delivering Um. Uh

16:34

that that's really hard to do, and it's it's

16:36

it was. It was great to see those

16:40

types of operators in action, because in startup

16:42

land you don't really typically get those

16:44

types of people to join. You get more entrepreneurial

16:46

and more strategic vision,

16:48

every kind of thinkers and

16:51

uh. And it was great to see the other side because

16:53

I think that you know, where I come from now

16:55

is a place of really needing to combine

16:58

you know, both what upen though when there was

17:00

a clash, when there was a clash between the

17:02

operating focus the operating culture

17:05

of Walmart and you know, you're more entrepreneurial

17:07

bent. I mean sometimes you could find middle ground,

17:10

but you were making many just you know, lots of

17:12

decisions at the same time, a lot of money at stake,

17:14

obviously a huge competitor, many

17:16

huge competitors an e commerce.

17:18

You had to move fast. Um. You

17:20

know, were there times when there were

17:23

culture clashes you felt over

17:25

there and how did you try to resolve them? Yeah?

17:27

I mean they're definitely culture clashes, There's there's

17:29

no question. Um. But I think

17:32

it's it's it's true diversity of thought,

17:34

you know. Um, and I

17:36

think, you know, despite the clashes

17:39

and things, I think there was mutual respect.

17:42

UM. You know both ways.

17:44

You know that you know being

17:46

able to um.

17:48

You know. I think educate

17:51

somewhat the people, the folks at Walmart

17:53

around this notion of you know, low

17:56

probability bet with a big

17:58

outcome. Um, if you

18:00

do, lots of those good things are

18:02

gonna happen. Big things are going to happen. As

18:04

opposed to, you know, the operating mindset

18:07

is, let's let's do everything with a

18:09

nine plus percent probability success

18:11

and make incremental improvements. And

18:14

if you have a really high probability is making an incremental

18:16

improvement that seems like a no brainer. Great,

18:19

But I equally think it's a no brainer to take

18:22

a something that has a shot at

18:24

working that will be a hundred x. And

18:26

that's a little bit of a different mindset because

18:29

I think the operating mindset is chance

18:31

forgetting wait wait wait wait, but

18:33

it's a hundred x. You know, it's

18:35

that's that's a very different way of

18:37

thinking. And I think at the end of the day, I learned

18:40

a ton from the operating mindset.

18:42

Hopefully the operating

18:44

mindset learn learn something from

18:46

from our team, and I do think

18:49

we that that diversity of thinking

18:52

help get Walmart you to where it is. I'd

18:54

like to believe that. Can you give us an example of one of those

18:56

little probability bets you made at Walmart

18:58

with the potential hundred pay out, something

19:01

that uh you recall from your years

19:03

there, Yeah, I mean things that didn't

19:05

work, but

19:08

I could tell you like we did Jet Black.

19:11

Yeah, I wasna I was gonna mention that, Yeah, which

19:14

was you know, low probability thing has I think that

19:16

is still that Conversational

19:18

commerce is the future of of retail that

19:21

you know, fast forward twenty years from now.

19:24

Um, I think search engines will be something that

19:26

will will sort of laugh about things

19:28

move tend to move slower in retails, So maybe it's a little

19:30

bit longer than twenty years, but at some point

19:32

in the future, people will be using voice,

19:35

primarily in text, to have a conversation

19:38

about what they want to buy and the attributes

19:40

still looking for without having to

19:42

to to search something and scroll through

19:45

you know, thousands thousand different toasters

19:47

and read the reviews and things to try to figure out what

19:49

toast do you want to buy? I don't, I don't see that happening.

19:52

So I think I think that was one

19:54

of those uh Lott probability

19:56

that's that didn't work out. I'm

20:00

I was still waiting for it. I was very offended. I never

20:02

got my invitation to join Jet Black. So

20:04

you know, UM, maybe I

20:06

wasn't the target audience. But I mean,

20:08

Mark, you obviously had so many ideas as

20:10

you were growing to going towards the end

20:12

of your of your tenure at Walmart,

20:15

that we were frantically trying to report

20:17

on. But I mean, all of a sudden, then you you decide

20:20

to to leave Walmart, you know, still

20:22

a strategic advisor of course, but leaving your

20:24

full time role as head of the USC e commerce.

20:27

But you did so in the in the middle of a pandemic,

20:29

which of course nobody could have foreseen. Um,

20:32

how did that sort of impact your your

20:34

plans, your exit, your ability

20:36

to do what you wanted to do, because obviously you have plenty

20:39

of things cooking right now, But um,

20:41

how did the pandemic um and it's impact

20:43

on the economy and just sort of how we go about

20:45

business. Um, you know, change

20:48

your sort of you know, your your exit strategy

20:51

there from Walmart. Well, the business.

20:53

You know, Uh, COVID was a tailwind

20:56

for for the business and eCOM people you

20:58

know, buying more online, so the business was

21:00

doing well. Um. More importantly,

21:02

I felt like we had the right organizational

21:05

structure set up. So it took a number

21:07

of years to get to the to the right structure of merging

21:10

the brick and mortar. The e consil was one business,

21:12

one set of merchants, um,

21:14

and that was really the most important piece. I

21:16

felt like the organization was in a really

21:19

good spot and didn't make sense to

21:21

have to have two leaders. And John Furner was

21:23

there and he has a really

21:25

strong you know background in in

21:27

in tech product and

21:30

felt like, you know, he would be a great leader to to

21:32

bring both together. And I felt like

21:34

my job was sort of done. Um I'd

21:36

been there almost four and a half years, and

21:39

uh, I felt like, you know, the

21:42

walmant was in a good spot. So

21:44

now, you, I mean, Mark, You've got so many plates spinning

21:47

at at once. Right now, You've You've got wonder

21:49

the food delivery and meal

21:51

kit thing. You've got your building a five million

21:54

person city from from scratch. You've

21:56

got your VC firm, you co

21:58

owned the Timber Wolves and the

22:00

w NBA's links. I mean, talk

22:03

us through a lot of people who listen

22:05

to this podcast to have a lot of plates spinning. Maybe

22:07

not as many as you or as as big a plates

22:09

as you, but you know, how do you prioritize?

22:12

Um? You know, how do you manage

22:14

your day? Yeah, it's like, UM,

22:17

I think the key is I

22:19

outsource everything that's

22:21

not basically one of those four

22:23

things or or relationships,

22:26

you know kind of stuff. But uh,

22:28

but you know, if you sleep, I

22:30

sleep eight hours a day, so that's that leaves sixteen

22:33

hours. You know, if you're basically

22:36

you know, not doing the things

22:39

that during the day that people do that

22:41

take time. Um, you

22:43

actually have a lot of time to

22:46

focus on the things that that you really want to focus

22:48

on. And so I've made it a point to outsource

22:50

anything and everything possible, and I've

22:52

got a great team that helps me do that,

22:55

um to free me up. So let's talk about

22:57

I mean the city you're building. I mean we did a big story

23:00

of it, uh not long

23:02

ago. I mean when you think about building a

23:04

city versus building a company,

23:07

obviously a bigger challenge, a different challenge,

23:10

but do you approach do you approach some things

23:12

in the same way or what's different. Yeah,

23:14

I mean, so obviously never built

23:16

a city before, so you know, I can't say

23:19

this is the right strategy neither.

23:22

But you know, I think

23:24

most of the cities that you kind of see start

23:27

off really there their real estate projects and

23:29

their for profit motives, and I

23:32

think we wanted to approach it from a little

23:34

different angle. And it's it's really you

23:36

know, the name of the city's Telosa, and we

23:38

started a community foundation and Toulosa

23:40

Community Foundation. We're coming at it from

23:43

a different angle. It's not about about the real estate

23:45

project. It's about starting with people at

23:47

the center and trying to UM,

23:50

trying out a new model for society basically

23:53

that we think has a shot to be better than the one we

23:55

have UM and so our

23:57

mission is to create a more equitable sustain

24:00

the future. Like that's sort of the starting point.

24:02

So it's very similar to a startup. You start

24:04

with a mission, you have your vision,

24:06

you have your set of values UM,

24:08

and then you build the culture and figure

24:10

out who you are, what you stand for, what you want

24:12

to be, and then everything else falls

24:15

in place. So it's you know, to my knowledge,

24:17

there aren't. You know, there's a city out

24:19

there that really started with mission,

24:22

vision, values and culture. First.

24:24

You said, though, Mark, that you want to build sort

24:26

of this new kind of institution because people

24:29

have lost faith in government and

24:31

there's no doubt about that. Um.

24:33

But according to the most recent trust barometer

24:35

from from Edelman, I mean we don't. People

24:38

don't really trust businesses business

24:40

leaders that much either anymore. I mean

24:42

there's this whole um pandemic of mistrust.

24:45

So you know, in your opinion, how can

24:47

American businesses regain

24:50

some of that trust? And you're a businessman, I mean,

24:52

what's your how do you do it? What do you think

24:54

needs to happen here. One of the reasons why

24:57

we set this up as a as a as a charity,

24:59

not not for profit foundation

25:02

is I think it's really important that

25:04

you know, I personally have no financial

25:07

stake whatsoever in the success of

25:09

the city that is surely

25:12

acting in the best interest of

25:14

of the citizens and the people that

25:16

live there. Um. I think if there

25:19

if there were a financial motive

25:21

tied to it or some benefit, I think

25:23

that's where the distrust comes. You know. I think with corporations,

25:26

they are in the business of making

25:28

profit for their shareholders. And so I

25:31

think there's an inherent dis trust in that that,

25:33

you know, are they doing it for profit

25:35

or are they doing it for social good? And

25:38

that's a fine line to walk here. There's

25:40

no line to walk where it's all you

25:44

know, social good project. And

25:46

uh, I think hopefully that will garner garner

25:49

more trust. Um. Also the way

25:51

we're approaching it, you know, I think there's a divide,

25:53

like you said, in this country about

25:55

what to do. We know that there's there's an issue

25:57

and that that the you know, uh, the

25:59

country is divided, and how do you

26:01

how do you bring both sides together? And

26:04

I think we've got a shot here. Um.

26:06

I think capitalism,

26:08

Um, you know, I believe in capitalism

26:10

is a great economic model, but it comes

26:12

with its flaws. And you

26:14

know, one of the one of the primary flaws that

26:16

we were sort of want one of the flaws we sort of

26:18

closed that that gap was and

26:21

I trust um competition.

26:23

You know, in in the past, Um,

26:26

you know, you were able to have a monopoly

26:29

and basically that was bad for customers

26:31

and that was bad for employees. And the government

26:33

said, wait, we need to have some And I trust

26:36

we can't have monopolies. We need to have competition

26:39

for capitalism to work well. So

26:42

so we sort of fixed that that that gap,

26:44

and that made a big difference. I still

26:46

think there's another another problem, and

26:48

that's the gap that we're trying to close, which

26:51

is you know, land ownership

26:53

um and and the fact that you know, land

26:56

ownership is essentially um

26:59

you know, so that's island monopoly.

27:01

There's a finite amount of land, and you can

27:04

own a piece of land and literally do nothing,

27:06

um and And as as people

27:09

move into the community and give land value,

27:11

it appreciates. And

27:13

my thinking was, what

27:16

if we took land that was worthless in the

27:18

desert, absolutely worthless, and we had

27:20

the foundation by this land, if

27:22

we can get five million people to move

27:24

there, um and create a

27:26

viable, you know, city,

27:29

that that land would be worth close to a trillion

27:32

dollars in value, and

27:34

and that value would accrue to the foundation,

27:37

and the foundation's mission would be to take that

27:39

create an endowment earned fifty

27:41

billion dollars a year and give it back to

27:43

the citizens in the form of advanced social services,

27:46

whether it be healthcare, education, affordable

27:49

housing, jobs, training. And

27:51

that's really the best of both worlds because

27:53

you without having to increase taxes,

27:56

you're able to have this incredible uh

27:59

social system and and sort of foundation

28:01

for people to sort of uh and create

28:03

this this this more equitable base. Um.

28:06

And then of course once the land rapidly

28:09

appreciates to be worth the trillion, then

28:12

sure then the foundation could sell the land off.

28:14

It's not meant to be the land can't be owned by

28:16

anyone. But the idea is that

28:18

that that initial step

28:20

change in appreciation from being worthless

28:23

to being a city is where all

28:25

this this value capture

28:28

of that appreciation comes back to the foundation

28:30

of the people as opposed to you

28:33

know, um, you know, five million

28:35

people moving to to a place that's

28:37

owned by people and the lands worthless,

28:40

and and the land goes up in value

28:42

with worth a trillion dollars, and those people

28:44

that own the land didn't necessarily have to do anything

28:47

to give land its value. And so I just

28:49

just a slight tweak there. I'm not suggesting

28:52

people shouldn't own land, or the

28:54

government should own land or

28:56

anything like that. This is not meant meant

28:58

to be anything in the way of even approaching

29:01

socialism. It's capitalism at its best. It

29:03

is. It is a foundation buying the land,

29:06

helping five million people move there because

29:09

the foundation will give the money and the appreciation

29:11

that the five million people bring back

29:14

to them. That's it. You mentioned Mark, this happening

29:16

in the desert. Have you settled is it

29:18

going to be Nevada in terms of where this will end up?

29:20

You haven't settled on it yet, but it does seem to

29:22

be, uh, you know, one of the one of

29:24

the high priority places just because of the land

29:27

value and also the laws

29:29

to be able to move fast and to

29:32

to build in a way that um

29:34

are there still regulatory or legal

29:37

hurdles there? I mean Nevada seemed the most promising,

29:39

but there were still some hurdles. Last Yeah,

29:42

oh, there's so many hurdles. Yeah,

29:44

name name one, give

29:46

me one you're working on now. I mean, water,

29:48

for example in the desert is definitely

29:51

you know, there's there's uh, that's a that's

29:53

a big issue and so you know, one of the

29:55

things we're doing there and this again will benefit

29:57

hopefully other other cities

30:00

and countries and things. But figuring

30:02

out how we could without

30:04

limiting people's use of water actually

30:07

a huge less water per person

30:10

um by the way we capture it and recycle

30:12

it. And a lot of that technology

30:15

I think is is uh, it's

30:17

something that will want to we want to

30:19

test and use and learn from in other

30:22

cities. So there have been other attempts at this.

30:24

What have you learned from those prior attempts

30:26

that may have What we've learned is a couple

30:28

of things. One, anytime

30:30

you want to put the city up as an

30:33

edge city against bumping up against another

30:35

city where a population center exists, there's

30:38

there's going to be opposition, you

30:40

know, as opposed to going in the desert where it's a clean

30:42

slate and there's you know, there's obviously still

30:44

issues and environmental issues and things like that.

30:46

But but if there's no people around,

30:49

I think it makes it easier. So that's that's one

30:51

big hurdle. The second is um

30:54

not leading with technology.

30:56

I think a lot of these cities lead with technology

30:59

and it sounds great, but

31:02

um, you know, at the end of the day, like

31:04

any any great city is great because

31:06

it has soul, um and because

31:08

it stands for something, It has a culture, it has

31:10

you know, and so how do we

31:13

start again with people at the center, with a

31:15

set of values and a culture and

31:17

give the city soul and use

31:19

technology in the background to make

31:21

things more efficient, but not lead with it, and certainly

31:24

not UM because that technology

31:27

is sort of cold, you know. Uh,

31:30

if you just sort of like lead with it, I think on

31:33

on its own. But but obviously

31:35

technology can make things more efficient, and

31:38

so when it comes to public transportation and things

31:40

like that, it could be, you know, a lot more

31:42

efficient. But you don't. I

31:44

don't. I don't think you wanted to be UM

31:47

high techiccy you lose the

31:50

field and the soul. So Mark, I asked you earlier about sort

31:52

of how you playing your day and such, and

31:54

in the sixteen hours that you have, do you

31:56

leave time in the day just sort of

31:58

free to think about new, tough, new

32:00

ideas or is there just not enough time for

32:02

that? I always hate admitting this because

32:05

you know, I don't. You know, I

32:07

don't. I don't really read UM

32:10

and I think I find you

32:12

know, I've tried to read, and I'm

32:14

I think it's interesting. But the amount of time

32:16

it takes to read a book, UM,

32:19

the amount of thinking that could

32:22

could happen during that same time. I always choose

32:24

the thinking. And so maybe at

32:26

a time when when when when others would be reading

32:29

a book or a newspaper or or

32:31

magazine or online I'm

32:34

thinking so I do spend quite a

32:36

bit of time thinking UM to

32:38

try and stitch everything together. And I'm

32:40

not against reading UM. And

32:42

I prefer to talk to people and meet

32:44

people and sort of you know, um,

32:48

you know, learn learn from just asking questions,

32:50

and it's stitching things together. Is there an

32:52

idea you've had recently marked that you've maybe

32:54

just sort of tucked away save for later. I

32:56

mean, I've done a lot of things since I since

32:58

I left Wall start everything from conversational

33:01

comments we talked about that, this wizard start

33:03

up. Yeah, I've probably time to get

33:06

into all the different things, but I've done I've done most

33:08

of them. I do think there's still a really

33:10

big opportunity in healthcare. That's

33:13

uh, that's just this this idea of preventative

33:15

medicine and and people taking

33:17

control of their health UM

33:20

and and there's a lot of um,

33:22

you know, ways for people now in their own home

33:25

to get more data, information and metrics

33:27

about their health UM on a regular

33:29

basis. And and I think there will be a future

33:31

where that's all kept and

33:33

uploaded in you into into

33:35

one central location and machine

33:37

learning, and people are able

33:40

to to know, um,

33:42

you know, in many cases things that maybe their doctors

33:44

don't even know in terms of what's happening,

33:46

you know, when when you piece everything together, your

33:49

your blood work and your and your pulse and

33:51

your oxygen levels and your breathing at

33:53

night and all these different different pieces and

33:56

to be able to get ahead of and prevent

33:59

um disease. So, Mark, I gotta

34:01

ask you about the metaverse. I mean, it's all we hear about

34:03

these days. Everyone has an opinion

34:05

on it. You know, what what's yours? What is

34:08

the metaverse? And you're in your eyes? What is

34:10

it for um? And how do you

34:12

you know we're we're the biggest opportunities.

34:14

It's probably the better question. Yeah,

34:16

I mean, you know, sometimes

34:18

it's it's it's hard to relate, you know, when

34:20

it's a you know, it's a generational

34:22

thing. Um. You know, it's it's sort of like

34:25

if if there's a lot of people I know that just

34:27

they saying, oh, metaverse, and they just sort of pushed away

34:29

at I don't I don't know that sounds that sounds

34:32

outrageous, you know, this idea crypto

34:35

or something yeah, like crypto or you just get it away,

34:37

you know. And I think those are the kinds

34:39

of things you have to be open to it and

34:41

and embrace because, um,

34:44

whether you like it or not, it's coming. And uh,

34:46

I think the the idea of you

34:49

know, augmented reality is

34:51

going to really accelerate this,

34:53

this this idea of the metaverse because this

34:55

idea of or even n f T s

34:57

digital goods. Right, you know that digital

35:00

goods are really hot now. People are are

35:02

buying and paying outrageous sums of money

35:04

for you know, digital baseball cards,

35:07

digital videos, digital

35:09

art um and people

35:11

don't understand it. But what's gonna happen is there's

35:14

going to be a point in the future where people

35:16

are wearing you know, what looks like ordinary

35:19

uh, glasses that

35:21

have embedded augmented reality in it

35:23

that allows you to see digital

35:25

objects overlaid in the real world.

35:28

And so you could be walking down the street

35:31

and with these glasses on and see somebody

35:33

wearing a digital handbag

35:36

or a digital pair of sneakers,

35:39

and that gives those items

35:41

value because of the prestige that's

35:43

associated with it, right, I mean, I

35:45

mean when it comes to fashion and things like that,

35:47

or art, it's all it's all

35:50

about scarcity and

35:52

and and and prestige and things

35:54

like you know, why why is it? You know, the

35:56

exact same handbag

35:58

is Gucci without the Gucci label on

36:00

it worth you know, a fraction of the price that

36:03

people that the brands matter. And

36:05

I think the same thing is going to happen with these digital

36:08

goods, where people will would be wearing

36:10

these glasses and you can go into an office

36:12

building and see a beautiful piece of digital art on

36:14

the wall. How far away?

36:16

How far away mark do you think we are from this augmented

36:19

reality? I mean, I think there's already

36:21

you know, we have the capability

36:24

of event now, but it takes a while for it to be

36:26

mainstream. And I think the

36:29

technology outpaces you know

36:31

probably um,

36:33

you know, people's ability to adopt it. I

36:35

think the adoption curve is going to be very

36:38

slow, and then it'll start to accelerate.

36:40

And and probably I

36:42

would say, you know, maybe

36:46

ten years from now, if I had, you

36:48

know, ten years from now, it will start to feel

36:50

like people will really get it, like people will

36:52

be wearing glasses. Not everyone, but

36:55

enough people that people

36:57

will will recognize that, Yeah, this is this

36:59

is really the future UM in ten

37:01

years markets. Besides conversational commerce,

37:04

which you've talked a lot about at Walmart

37:06

and now currently UM, how else

37:08

do you think retail and any commerce

37:10

will be different ten years from now UM

37:13

versus today. So it's conversational commerce

37:15

form one, and I think the other is

37:17

sort of this social commerce,

37:20

this idea of this sort of creator economy

37:23

where where anyone could be a retailer.

37:25

You know, so if you've got a if you've got a

37:28

TikTok or Instagram or whatever social

37:31

media platform you're on, you could like

37:34

certain brands and very easily

37:36

create a video of these

37:39

brands that people could shop from,

37:41

and you make revenue. You know. This idea

37:43

of people building their own marketplace is using

37:46

using using tools UM

37:48

to do it. UM. I think

37:50

that so it becomes much more fragmented

37:53

the retail market in the future.

37:55

And who do you think, I mean, do you think companies like

37:57

Walmart's UM Target will

37:59

be in the lead there or do you

38:02

think, well, you know, we'll see a new era

38:04

of companies we've never even maybe thought much

38:06

about that maybe more inclined

38:09

or a tune to social commerce

38:11

versus traditional brick and mortar

38:13

and last mile stuff. Yeah, I

38:15

mean I think the

38:17

company has already engaged in social media.

38:20

Now I think have an advantage, um,

38:22

you know, just because they've got the platform and they've

38:24

got the people on there. I

38:26

think I just invested in on a stake in

38:28

a company called now With which is building this

38:30

platform and these tools, and I think

38:32

there are other companies as well doing it. I think,

38:35

um, those companies will be the accelerant.

38:38

But but ultimately, UM,

38:40

I think there's there's there's a high probability

38:42

that the companies are already

38:45

in social media, um would

38:47

would be in the best position to leverage

38:49

that technology. Mark, a few minutes ago, you said

38:52

you'd rather be out meeting people than let's

38:54

say, you know, reading a

38:56

management book. Um,

38:59

when you go out and people, I'm sure

39:01

they asked for your advice, but you I imagine

39:03

you often asked people for their advice. So

39:05

I asked this of everyone I interview, Mark,

39:07

what's the best piece of advice you ever received,

39:10

who gave it to you? And and you know,

39:12

how have you acted on it? It's

39:14

funny, it wasn't It wasn't so direct, I guess in

39:16

terms of like the advice as

39:18

you you typically would I would hear

39:20

it. But my my grandfather, I

39:22

called him Big Pop. Um. He

39:24

was had a big influence on my

39:27

life growing up. Um.

39:29

He was the antithesis of sort of the family

39:31

that I had, you know, grown up with my parents

39:34

fighting and things. He was very um

39:38

uh you know, uh kind

39:41

and empathetic and um

39:43

it was so incredibly grateful for his

39:45

life. He he grew up, you know, came

39:48

from Italy and and and and worked as

39:50

a as a as a tailor for a while, and then

39:52

and then worked for the city you know lane railroad

39:55

tracks for his entire life, and

39:57

said he had the best job in the world. It was like working

39:59

twelve to one in an hour for lunch. Um

40:02

and uh. He used to say how

40:04

he was the richest guy in the world. And he would count

40:06

all his daughters and grandchildren as a million

40:09

bucks, you know, a million here, two million, three, who's

40:11

got it better than me? And so it wasn't

40:13

necessarily you know, advice in

40:15

the traditional sense, but that really stuck

40:17

with me, you know. Um.

40:20

And what was it that that made

40:22

him, you know, so grateful and so giving

40:25

and so appreciative of his life even

40:27

though you know, by by by anyone's you

40:29

know, standard definition of success,

40:31

he wouldn't have been very successful

40:33

at all. Um. And so that that advice,

40:36

that you know, indirect advice there is

40:38

is something that's really stuck with me and really

40:40

really drives me. And I think about

40:43

it a lot. Yeah. Yeah, my my

40:45

dad tells me about how my my his dad,

40:47

my grandfather. Yeah, I was a milkman in Brooklyn,

40:49

and you know he would company

40:52

would come out with a smile on his face. Um,

40:54

you know that's so Mark. I mean, I

40:56

gotta ask, Mark, I'm a big New York

40:58

Mets fan. You try to buy my favorite

41:01

team, Um, Steve

41:03

Cohen got them instead? What do

41:05

you think about the job he's doing so far? I gotta

41:07

ask, is it? I think I would I

41:09

would do it a little differently. Maybe that's the way

41:12

the way to say it. I mean, And I think Alex

41:14

and I are doing it with the Timberwolves. Now,

41:17

it's you know, before you start making moves,

41:20

you know, And this is something I just learned and kind of

41:22

got whacked on the head many times for

41:24

making making moves first and

41:26

then doing the foundational

41:29

work. And so I think it's

41:31

always best to do the foundational work first, which

41:33

is like before you hire fire

41:35

do anything, figure out what

41:38

exactly is the mission

41:40

of this organization. What do we

41:42

stand for? What does U set of values? What

41:45

is the culture that we want to build? What are the

41:47

attributes of the people that we want in the organization?

41:49

Because you need to kind of have that roadmap so

41:52

then you can assess the people you have

41:54

whether they're good fit, and then new people whether

41:56

they're fit, so that you can build the right culture.

41:58

And then and then also what is the

42:01

vision, like what do you where do you want to be in ten or

42:03

twenty years? What's the strategy

42:05

to get there? What do the success

42:07

look like? What are the metrics like? Get that

42:09

foundational work in place, communicated

42:12

to the organization so that every

42:14

move you make makes sense to

42:17

the outside world, to the inside world,

42:19

to everyone. Um

42:21

and you know, from what I can see, again I haven't

42:23

been close to it, it seems like a lot of moves

42:25

have been made very quickly. Now they may have done

42:27

the foundational work, um,

42:30

but my my, you know, I think

42:32

it usually takes a lot longer

42:34

to do that work. You know, it's a it's a twelve twelve

42:37

week you much patients.

42:39

Uh, as Mets fans, they don't have much pace now, and

42:41

so so maybe maybe that's what you

42:43

know, inspired inspired him to take action.

42:46

Is the is the sense of urgency that it's

42:48

been a long time and the fans are putting a lot

42:50

of pressure. But um, we don't

42:52

have that same pressure necessarily in Minnesota.

42:55

But uh, but I do think, um,

42:59

you know that that it's doing that heavy,

43:01

heavy hard work and heavy lifting

43:03

up front, we'll pay huge dividends

43:06

in the future. Um.

43:08

So you mentioned Alex, Um

43:11

we might know him, our listeners

43:13

probably know him better as a rod Um.

43:15

Just to make sure we all know we're talking about here. And

43:17

what what have you learned from from Alex?

43:20

And what do you think he's learned from you? As you guys

43:22

are now sort of you know, famous partners

43:24

on several things. Yeah, well, I mean I've

43:27

really enjoyed getting to know Alex and and

43:29

uh we share a some common set of values.

43:31

You know, we grew up in a similar way.

43:34

Um, have a similar set of values, but we have a very

43:37

different approach problems from you know, a

43:40

different way of thinking. His experience,

43:43

you know, as one of one of the best players

43:45

of all time. UM, you know, is

43:49

been incredibly valuable UM

43:51

to me and to the team in terms

43:53

of UM, you know,

43:55

being able to really relate to the players and how they're

43:57

feeling and thinking and in

43:59

ways that are super insightful

44:01

that there's no way you would know that unless

44:04

you've been in a clubhouse and been there and

44:06

how management, GM

44:09

the owners are perceived things that

44:11

that you can do, that players appreciate

44:13

things that that they wouldn't And it's

44:16

that deep insight that's been been really helpful.

44:19

And you know, I'm sort of bringing

44:22

that all the experience I have in the startup land

44:24

to put in a place

44:26

this foundation of vision capital

44:28

people b c P as I call it UM

44:30

and doing doing that that heavy lifting to

44:32

get get the foundation strong. And I think

44:34

the combination of Alex and I make

44:37

a good team. Yeah. Can I

44:39

ask quickly about the market? I mean it's it's

44:41

kind of tanking at the at the moment

44:44

this week is is is Jeremy

44:46

Grantham right? Has the stock markets? Uh?

44:48

You know, have we peaked? Where? And

44:50

where where do you place your bets? Mark? As

44:52

an investor, um, and if

44:55

we are in a dip. Um.

44:57

You know, before my life as an entrepreneur,

44:59

I was in financial risk management and

45:02

I started in investing in stocks in seventh

45:04

grade. So like my my m

45:07

as much as I'm an entrepreneur, I love I love

45:09

the stock market and and you

45:12

know, follow it pretty closely. And

45:15

uh, I I've been

45:17

through so many crashes, you know, you

45:19

know, in my in in my life, like big ones,

45:21

you know, like everything from seven you

45:24

know to two thousand, two

45:26

thousand, and people

45:28

that you know got into the market. I guess

45:30

after two thousand, it's been it's been an incredible

45:32

run, um the last fourteen

45:34

years. And uh and

45:37

I'm I guess I just have that Um

45:41

they've been through, been through a number of them where

45:43

it always seems to happen when things look like

45:46

they can't they can't, like

45:48

nothing's gonna stop it. Something stops it.

45:50

And by all historic accounts,

45:52

the stock market is is top heavy

45:55

and over value, especially in certain sectors.

45:57

And so I've been a little bit you know, um

46:00

gun shy in getting getting into

46:02

the market. Um. It's not to

46:04

say it's gonna crash, but I do

46:06

think there are some

46:08

warning signs, you know, the things

46:11

we're seeing with with inflation, UM

46:13

and and everything we've done with monetary

46:15

policy throughout COVID. I think

46:17

the bubble that we're seeing in in

46:20

in physical assets and crypto

46:22

things like that, they don't necessarily have the same

46:25

level of intrinsic value exposed the market

46:27

and give us give more risks

46:29

there, especially especially how

46:31

wide and for reaching UM

46:34

some of those UM

46:36

investments and things like crypto go. It's

46:39

not just a small group anymore, it's it's very mass

46:41

that concerns me. And so I

46:43

am not Uh, I'm not

46:45

necessarily going to jump in and short the market,

46:48

but I'm also not feeling

46:50

comfortable being along either. Yeah,

46:52

what about your investments at VCP.

46:54

I mean if the if the appetite for I P O s

46:57

is lessened, how does that impact

47:00

and influence you know, the decisions you're going to make

47:02

as ahead of a fund there. Yeah, in

47:04

markets and cycles, so we're starting

47:06

from the ground, you know, and getting in at

47:08

very modest valuations, you know, less

47:10

than twenty million valuation and take some

47:13

number of years before uh, these

47:15

companies are worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars

47:17

and so you know, in some ways, it may be the

47:19

best time to be getting into startups now,

47:22

because you know, in five years from

47:24

now, we could be you know, at

47:26

the bottom or in the upswing. You

47:28

know. I think the

47:31

worst place to be right now would be sort

47:33

of you know pre I p o in

47:35

my mind, you know, just because of how

47:37

how unstable the market is at this moment. So

47:40

now I feel great, I think, I think, I think

47:42

getting into startups and starting from scratch today's

47:45

is a sort of perfect place to be. I

47:47

gotta ask one question about food, if I if

47:49

I can. I mean, obviously one

47:51

of your businesses is very much centered

47:53

around, uh, you know, high end food, bringing

47:55

restaurant quality food um via

47:58

via trucks and to people's homes

48:01

and delivery. Um give

48:03

me an, what's your favorite Italian

48:05

restaurant in the city

48:08

or in Jersey? I would say I

48:10

would say Angelicas

48:12

in Seabright, New Jersey. Okay,

48:14

why that The food is the Italian food

48:17

is just incredible. And anybody who

48:19

who's hearing this that's been there knows what I'm

48:21

talking about. The food is is out

48:23

of this world and we

48:26

fortunately just just partnered with them. Um

48:29

on wonder. So that's exciting

48:31

to go to bring that quality Italian food

48:33

to Maybe we can break bread

48:36

there one day or one of the good spots up here in

48:38

uh in Harrison as well, Mark, thanks

48:40

so much for coming to speak to us on out of

48:42

Office. I really enjoyed it. Same here. I

48:47

really enjoyed this chat too, and I hope

48:49

you did. That was Mark Lauren conversation

48:52

with my colleague Matthew Boyle. Remember

48:54

you can check out more episodes of Out of Office

48:57

on Spotify, Apple Podcast, The

48:59

bloom Book termin and Bloomberg dot Com.

49:01

This episode was produced by Yang Yang.

49:04

I'm Alika Kapoor. As always,

49:06

thank you for listening.