0:01

John: Congrats to the poly arc homeys, whom including this episode now account

0:06

for one sixth of the interviews done on this young podcast for shipping

0:10

their second game mosque to on VR.

0:13

I've picked up my copy and urge anyone with a PSVR to do the same.

0:18

This episode goes out to the new homey chin.

0:21

Hey fellow tech designer at epic working out of Shanghai.

0:24

Who's dealing with another lockdown. It's been two damn years that COVID has been altering the way we work and live.

0:30

And this still may just cities out there trying to contain this thing.

0:34

He helped me wrap my head around the particularly tricky redirect flow.

0:38

That I would have still been banging my head against the wall on.

0:42

Episode 30, I'm a closet numerologist who geeks out about patterns and base

0:47

powers of five and tens, even an odd.

0:50

And so for these DECA solds, yeah, I made that up.

0:54

It's my show. I do. And say what a want.

0:56

I make it a point to bring on someone whom I have a deep

0:59

rapport with in and around games.

1:02

And personally. 10 was Danny Bulla.

1:05

20 was Ryan parody and 30 is CRISPR rasa.

1:08

We've seen some shit together. I hope you enjoy this one.

1:11

I know, I enjoy putting it together. With all that said.

1:15

Hit my music.

1:19

On episode 30 of the game developers podcast out of play area.

1:22

I sit down with Christopher rasa, a great homie fellow outlaw to the end

1:27

that shipped red, dead redemption, one alongside of fellow full sail, 2006 alumni

1:32

and now design director at poly Ark.

1:35

We break down his contributions on the first VR title Moss And walked

1:38

into the combat and AI design. We also talk about the responsibilities he's currently facing as a design

1:44

director and then walking through what led him to full sail his

1:48

first VR internship on unreal.

1:51

What it was like breaking in a rockstar San Diego To work on midnight club LA,

1:55

we talk about the power of networking and share tips on interviewing We

1:59

talk about the hard lessons learned working in mobile and at startups.

2:03

And more. Please welcome by way of Haverhill Massachusetts.

2:07

Now residing in the Emerald city. That is Seattle.

2:11

Chris Bourassa.

2:14

Let's fall the fuck out. Catherine: Bienvenido Bienvenue Welcome to the out of play area podcast, a

2:24

show by video game devs for game devs, where the guests open up one-on-one

2:28

about their journey, their experiences, their views, and their ideas.

2:33

No ads, no bullshit. Join us as we venture far out of the play area with your host

2:39

seasoned game designer, John Diaz

2:43

Chris B: Definitely try to like Friday logoff, go upstairs, see the family and

2:47

it's like, I gotta turn everything off.

2:49

And then it's like Sunday night, you start remembering what you were doing on Friday.

2:52

Stopped being like right. This bug is still open.

2:55

you know, I was like, I'll deal with that on Monday. And then you just turn it off.

2:58

And then Sunday night you're like, oh shit, that's still there.

3:02

John: like you shove it into the closet and you open the closet.

3:05

Oh, that goober waiting for me.

3:07

Chris B: Sometimes the closet doors just bust back, open doesn't

3:10

even wait for you to open it. John: Kool-Aid man style.

3:13

Oh yeah. I'm still here. Chris B: And then some of them you're like, you still going to be there too.

3:19

John: You shove it back in like, yeah, I'm going to put you all to

3:22

like next sprint or next milestone. You like a C book.

3:25

Chris B: You might actually ship with the game back in there.

3:29

John: You put a little, a pretty little bowl.

3:32

You do the hair just right. You'd be like, look nobody.

3:35

Nobody's going to notice this now your feature now you're nicely dressed.

3:39

You're ready for the wide world. Chris B: As long as you don't embarrass me, you can, you can come to the show.

3:46

Congratulations on making it to season two.

3:49

I know you said like, what was it like episode nine was supposed to be like the podcast turtle.

3:55

John: yes. like more, a lot of them die at nine, like 80% of them don't get to 10.

3:59

And so that was the hump. Chris B: and now you're like, screw it.

4:01

I'm past that. So I got seasons now.

4:03

John: We get to say whatever we want, however we want.

4:06

you know, you just got to worry about your family hearing it.

4:08

Chris B: yeah, I don't know, I am happily employed, so there are I have to answer to some people,

4:13

so John: yeah. And you're like part owner, right? You have like equity and stuff.

4:17

Chris B: we do yes. John: So your interests are aligned.

4:20

One-to-one with your employer's interests.

4:23

Chris B: Very much so. John: Which seems to be going good.

4:25

I actually been called out. I've been called out for showing too much favoritism to poly Ark.

4:30

Cause you will be the fifth poly arc employee on my podcast out of,

4:35

I don't know we're going to be like probably almost in the thirties.

4:38

and to that I say, my friend, it's not like

4:40

I go to poly arc and I'm like, yo, I want you guys on my show.

4:43

I go to my homeys and I say, I want you guys on my

4:46

Chris B: we just all happen to work there. John: You all happen to work there?

4:49

That's all it is. Chris B: Right. I mean, it's just, showing of networking right.

4:53

And a lot of your network happens to be a poly arc right now.

4:56

John: I hear it's a pretty special place, man.

4:58

They, treat you guys well over there.

5:00

Chris B: it's been a lot of fun, super collaborative.

5:03

I can honestly say it is the best place I've worked.

5:07

John: What was it like? Cause you were like employee 10 or something like that.

5:10

Chris B: No, I was 14.

5:12

we did Moss one with 15 employees and I came in at 14.

5:18

I made it in right before the doors shut before we were like, Okay,

5:21

it's time to make this game. John: They brought in the big guns to help close this thing.

5:25

Chris B: We can call it that chair. John: I was watching a recent, dev reacts on IGN and it was you and Danny.

5:33

Danny was on episode 10 and you guys were reacting to a 43 minute speed run

5:37

Chris B: Yup. John: and I thought you set the previous record

5:40

Chris B: I had the studio record, absolutely unofficial.

5:44

Cause I was like timing it myself and all that.

5:46

But dude, I was only at 47 minutes in the office, which was still I thought great.

5:50

John: Hell yeah. that game took me a handful of hours to get through

5:54

Chris B: average players finish around four hours.

5:56

John: Yeah, that sounds about right. Chris B: Yeah, no, his, his speed run was great.

6:00

it's funny. Cause that was like the second one of his, blitz.

6:03

VR is the guy's name. he had posted one on, Twitter and I like watched through it.

6:08

I was like, it was tight. And then him and I talked a little bit, cause I was like, I think here's

6:12

some spots where like I got some tricks that you didn't didn't pull off.

6:15

I mean, he had so many that I didn't know about but there was a few

6:18

that I had in my back pocket that was like, you should try these.

6:21

And you know, he was like, ah, I think this is way it's faster.

6:24

And I mean, the dude holds the record, so I just have to accept that he did it.

6:27

right. but I've officially transcended into gamer dad now

6:32

John: um, so that record was set before gamer dead.

6:35

Chris B: my speed run time was before gamer dad.

6:37

And now I'm like, I watched that speed run and I was like, I'd love to try, but

6:40

I know, like I know the effort that he put in and I know what it would take there

6:44

and I just don't cut that time anymore. John: I feel you.

6:46

I know you well, but for the audience who may not know you, I would describe you as one of the most competitive

6:53

developers out there in the land. at least pregame with dad.

6:56

I would argue that that still exists deep down in your soul

6:59

and your blood is Chris B: competitiveness didn't go away.

7:01

I just know that I don't have the time to, I know when I have

7:04

to walk away from challenges. John: That's the thing.

7:06

I think that's the new skill you've unlocked in your skill tree is to

7:11

accept when, Hey, I can kick your ass, but I'm not going to put in the

7:14

time I'm going to, sit this one out. you're going to invest in your progeny and level them up so that they can come

7:20

back and beat down on their progeny and break the skills for the next generation.

7:24

Chris B: sounds about, right? Yeah. We'll go with that. John: How does that feel?

7:27

CB? Cause I know I struggle with that myself.

7:30

It's like, Hey, I made the game. I know the ins and outs.

7:34

And when I don't know the ins and outs, I got

7:36

a tester or a producer nearby or designer direct access to be able to

7:40

tell me the hacks, tell me the exploits.

7:42

we know the insides and outs. And to see someone out there in the wild, find something you

7:46

didn't know about or teach you. some things like how, how how's that feel for a competitive soul such as you.

7:53

Chris B: I mean, you kind of love it, right? It's myself and Mike Jensen.

7:58

when our artists, he was my competition in the office when we were speed running,

8:03

we raced a couple times and then.

8:05

He was like, okay, you've got the dexterity, but I've got the tricks.

8:09

So he, a lot of the tricks that I used in like the speed

8:12

run, Mike actually found them. And I was just better about stringing them all together.

8:17

So, so, you know, being competitive, you always love someone taking you to the

8:21

next level and finding that next trick. Right?

8:24

Because once, once someone finds that trick, everybody's time can

8:28

get better once they learn that. So then you've got to find that next one.

8:31

So it's like the natural progression. And I think through both of our careers, you know, you get the game

8:36

out to the masses because a test team is only so big and Pauly are from OSS.

8:41

I was the test team. we were all the test team, right?

8:43

Like we had a whiteboard and everybody started taking sections of the game.

8:46

And one of the downsides of being the speed runner in the office

8:52

is when we had to do full sweeps. logically, it took me the least amount of time.

8:56

So I by the end, I was running Moss two or three times a day.

9:02

I just go sit in the big office.

9:04

cause we were trying to do you know, testing achievements.

9:08

And one of them was to get all the collectibles, right.

9:10

John: Yeah. Chris B: And all the tier two collectibles.

9:13

And you need to know. Which I, I had implemented all of that stuff, so, but I couldn't remember how

9:18

many you're supposed to have in each room.

9:20

So James would just sit in the room behind me with the chart that had what my break

9:25

points were supposed to be at each room. And every time I pass a room, I pause real quick.

9:30

He check the number. It'd be like, okay, you're good. Keep going.

9:33

Just like John: Nice.

9:36

it's a temptation that we have devs to like maximize the day.

9:40

Right. And, utilize those level skips and God molds and all those cheats to just make

9:46

sure that this one part of the thing you're trying to fix works in all these

9:49

different cases or you run it in a smoke map or a test gym or something like that.

9:53

but it's super important to play these things continuously in game, right?

9:56

what I want to say about that is how vital that is to development

10:00

and how it's tempting to just put it off to the end when you're like,

10:04

you know, ready for alpha beta. But I always emphasize to do this.

10:09

From the beginning, play it in context.

10:11

Chris B: for sure. not only I would say getting it in context, but it's really easy to,

10:17

depending on what you're developing. Tino, play it on your PC, right?

10:21

Like in the editor or whatever you're doing.

10:24

something that we did is we were able to, get bills to like the PlayStation store

10:29

right around probably like our beta.

10:32

So we had it, you know, set to go.

10:34

So I was able, I was running all of these on the PS4, production

10:39

ready bills that we were testing. Right. So I didn't actually have access to a lot of the cheats, which was

10:44

great because, you know, it's real easy to want to start, you know,

10:48

teleporting to just get across the map. this is how you find those crazy collision bugs and everything.

10:55

you just gotta like force yourself to sit down and play them.

10:57

And it's just real easy to, just want to use them.

10:59

Cause like you said, I have other things to do.

11:02

And sometimes taking the time to just play it like a regular player, you

11:06

seems like you're, you're potentially wasting time, but that's actually

11:09

the most valuable is because you can find like the hidden gems, right.

11:13

That aren't the obvious like, oh, let me run through all the, the smoke tests.

11:17

Let me run through all this. It's like, you have that to catch it.

11:20

But at the end of the day, sometimes you just gotta like put the time in, right.

11:23

John: you hit it right on the head CB, instead of saying that, Hey, I'm

11:26

taking the long way. I'm spending more time to

11:29

verify the state. No, it's actually, you're investing your time correctly,

11:33

you're seeing it the way that players out there in the wild.

11:35

You're gonna see it before you get to check it off,

11:37

Chris B: and it is nice if you have the luxury, you know, getting like outside,

11:41

tests or people that aren't as familiar. Because even that said, I guarantee you, I ran it the same way almost every time.

11:49

Right? Like it's, that's one of the things that is hard to do.

11:52

Right. It's you know how to run it. Like, even though I'm not using cheats or whatever, unless I'm like

11:57

mentally making sure to like, try to throw it up, you're just kind of go on

12:00

autopilot and you're doing these things.

12:03

we actually like early, like one of the builds, Rebecca, came in,

12:07

cause she was like, I wanna play. I want to try. So we got her all set up and I went back to my desk.

12:11

Like she'll do the section in the game of Visy. She John: Has she played VR before or

12:15

Mohs before? Chris B: that was this, her first time in VR.

12:18

And you know, she plays games. So I wasn't worried about, but immediately she comes back, she's like, I'm stuck.

12:24

And I was like, okay, cool. Like what happened?

12:26

I look, she is literally stuck in the wall.

12:28

I was like, what did she do? John: how did you get here?

12:32

Chris B: she is the scrub, the wall type gamer, which I was like, great.

12:36

We are going to have you test all these.

12:39

John: I think that comes to me from like old ass J RPGs where like, there was no

12:44

feedback for things that you could pick up and then randomly you hit the interact.

12:48

One is like, you found this ultra Phoenix down.

12:51

I'm like, yo, how would you know that that was there if you weren't

12:54

matching up against the Chris B: one of her favorites is final fantasy nine.

12:58

So yeah, that falls right in like square, we're starting to get

13:01

better about it then, but it was still, everything was so hidden.

13:05

John: Yup. So what were you responsible for on most one?

13:08

Chris B: I did quills combat, the AI enemies and achievements, collectibles.

13:15

And then one of my levels made it in there.

13:18

That's all right. the dev name for it is town 23.

13:21

It is the once you make it to the, rundown town, you see the century the first time

13:29

and you like, you shut the door on him and then this next room, century's incentive.

13:33

The Roman it's this whole puzzle about like playing hide and seek with

13:36

the century. John: So this is what you have to face.

13:38

the century is now an obstacle. When you wait, you have to, as part of the puzzle,

13:42

Chris B: That one was mine analytics say that is the third,

13:46

most dangerous room in the game. John: it's the first one that like the beginning water

13:51

wheel. Chris B: is waterwheel, which, that is a bit of a failing on our part.

13:57

The most deadly room in the game is within the first 20 minutes.

14:01

So people like, oh, this game's on, there's no enemies.

14:03

There's not supposed to be any like danger.

14:06

It's supposed to be this fun puzzle. And it just murders people.

14:09

John: there's a lot to be said for the utility of like invisible, protective

14:14

collision in these platformers with like Def drops off the edge of

14:17

the map and Chris B: the whole point of the room is to like introduce people to VR and

14:22

get used to like reaching in and like realizing that you can affect the world.

14:27

And there's this waterwheel that is probably spinning too fast period.

14:31

Right. For what we want it, we just need to make this stupid

14:33

things spins slow because Yeah.

14:36

you're supposed to grab it and you can like influence it and you

14:39

basically pump the brakes on it. So Quill has time to maneuver and people just jump on this thing.

14:44

Girl just goes flying off the John: It's so heartbreaking.

14:47

I know every time, every time she falls, no, you feel like a failure.

14:52

So the combat, tell me what you liked about it.

14:54

What you wish you could have done what you left on the cutting room floor, the enemy AI

14:58

and then her combos. And the biggest thing was like, what do you guys call it?

15:02

Possession. all that, flowed pretty, perfectly.

15:06

I would say, when the, how long it took to get there, lessons learned

15:10

Chris B: I'm glad you think it flowed perfectly. Cause if you watch the AI, they walk over each other.

15:15

So the thing that like I really wanted and I shot for, and this was

15:19

my first time using unrealistic, AI.

15:22

The baby tree. stuff. I tried to get them to Kung Fu circle, around Quill.

15:27

if you Like to stand there. John: a little battle.

15:29

Chris B: Yeah. they'll stand there and they, they take turns, they know who's attack.

15:33

Like they, they mark themselves as who's attacking. So they straight up kung-fu style, like only one swings at a time.

15:38

And John: that's super helpful by the way, man.

15:40

Like not to not overwhelm players. Right.

15:43

Especially if they're like, oh, I can attack, but I can also grab in, right?

15:47

Like that, that dual wielding kind of thing is it can be overwhelming

15:50

and having to manage more than one person swinging on you

15:53

Chris B: yeah, there was, an interesting, we had to put a bit of a delay on it.

15:56

Cause what would happen is because they waited.

15:59

If you got. They waited long enough that, you know, when you're in hits done,

16:04

we give you some invincibility. But because they didn't all attack at the same time, they would

16:08

actually time their hits perfectly. So they could just chain you.

16:12

So we had to put a bit of a delay, so the, uh, the chaining didn't happen.

16:16

but the complete circle for the most part didn't really work the best.

16:20

So like, it would have been cooler if that worked a little nicer.

16:24

but the thing I'm really happy about is yeah, animation canceling.

16:28

John: with the dashing. Chris B: yeah, so myself and Rick LICO our lead animator, spent a lot

16:34

of time and he's also like a really hardcore, like third strike player.

16:39

So you got two guys that love fighting games and we're like, let's talk

16:42

about animation frames and what,

16:44

like every, John: you three Chris B: yeah, we talked about, um, like the dashes have invincibility.

16:51

all of quills attacks and they're like

16:53

true to like, guilty gear supers that frames one and two, you were vulnerable.

16:57

And then from two to six or whatever, you know, you're invincible and then

17:02

you had your recovery out of it. So they had a chance to hit it.

17:04

So we just have a lot of fun, doing those and then building, building the enemies

17:08

was a lot of fun with Rick as well. what's really funny and I really appreciate it.

17:13

Cause this is, the first time I worked directly with an animator this first

17:17

time I put characters in the game, you know, I was, I mostly did like car games.

17:21

And then when we worked on red dead, I was just, you know, doing the

17:23

online stuff, but never actually like creating any characters.

17:27

So we were talking about quills attacks and how, how do I envision,

17:31

like, what do I want her to be doing? Or what do I want the enemies to do?

17:34

And I was trying to explain it to Rick and he just looked at me and was like, acted out.

17:37

I was like, what I need to just like do it. So I'm on the dev floor.

17:40

And it was just one of those things, like, what do you want to see in the game?

17:43

Right. John: Yeah. Animator. Right? They like study emotion and

17:47

Chris B: sure. It John: physiology and everything. Chris B: is like, I hear you, but just like, have some fun with this.

17:52

Let me see what you want. I was like, okay, cool.

17:55

Let's do this. And then all of a sudden, I mean, John: props or something?

18:00

Chris B: imagine the sword and you don't want me swinging a sword around.

18:02

John: I do, but you know, I guess you coworkers don't

18:07

Chris B: Rick is fastest animator I've ever worked with this guy is

18:10

the Tasmanian devil of animation.

18:12

Like I walked away and I swear, by the time I got back to my desk,

18:15

he was like, what do you think? John: damn Chris B: Yeah.

18:18

John: you, shout Chris B: And yeah, it was, it was tight.

18:22

So I think that was probably my favorite.

18:24

My favorite part of. What like for everything I did with Moss is just like Rick and I iterating

18:30

on like quilts combat and the enemy, like attacks and stuff like that.

18:34

John: That's special, man. I think you got away with it. Pretty cheaply too.

18:37

Like you didn't have to jump in a mocap suit or anything.

18:39

You just like, all right. Here's what I'm thinking.

18:42

Swinging uppercut, whatever slash, and then he just kind

18:45

of, did he record you at all? He just kind

18:47

of visually captured. Chris B: most of it was just visually captured.

18:51

I think a couple of times we did a few recordings.

18:54

I know I recorded him a couple of times. We did like for our like holiday, gifts and stuff that we did for

19:01

Twitter, he acted out Quill and I did like the animation of like the

19:06

camera, just so like, cause for those, he's also animating the camera.

19:10

So I was kind of driving where like it should zoom and stuff like that.

19:13

So that was a lot of fun. also it's really nice.

19:16

having someone that plays in a fighting games, I looked at him and I was

19:19

like, yo, I just want a Bookie's dash. And he was just like, say no more.

19:24

John: That's pretty sweet. That's almost cheating. I think that's the benefit of having someone who you guys play similar games,

19:30

there's no shortage of an advantage in the more games you play as a designer,

19:34

the mortgage that you have in your tool belt, to be able to kind of provide

19:36

that reference for people to kind of go down the checklist and be like, I'm

19:39

just going to keep naming games until you played one of the ones of naming.

19:43

Right. And then that's it, that's it right there.

19:46

I love gameplay design more than anything.

19:49

And in particular, working with animators tends to be the most fun, right?

19:54

cause you're thinking of things or describing things they're writing

19:56

down and then they kind of bring it to life and show it to you. Like, is this what was in your head that you were trying to vaguely describe to me.

20:02

Yes, or kind of change this, change that, and then you see it in

20:05

game, like pretty fast, especially with like unreal iteration.

20:08

That shit is crazy. Chris B: Yeah. the biggest takeaway working with Rick and the thing that I love when he always

20:14

asks us, you know, cause I'm like, cool, I want her to do this slash right.

20:18

And it's just like, why, what do you mean?

20:21

Why is it an attack? It's like, no, who is Quill?

20:24

Why would she do this? Right? Like, is she able to do this?

20:27

Like the idea like Quill, Quill is like in an adolescence, right?

20:31

Like she's a novice, it's like, no, she's not throwing sure you cans and stuff.

20:36

Like she should not be doing that. Like it needs to look a little sloppy.

20:39

It needs to look untrained. so it was interesting, making sure before you ask for things, get in the mindset

20:47

of the character that you're creating and what, what would they do?

20:51

Not what not, What do you want them to do, but what would they.

20:54

John: what would it look like? Yeah. For someone getting to own a character and build out the choreography

21:01

and move set for the protagonist, there's a lot to learn there.

21:04

I think that's a great piece of advice is to get into the context of the character.

21:09

So I hate what would it look like if she was to do a show?

21:12

And then what would that mean for someone of this age, this skillset,

21:15

this first time wielding a sword or

21:18

Chris B: yep. John: on an adventure and all that. Chris B: when I had joined Quill as a character was, you know, really

21:24

well-defined like we referred to her kind of combat style and the

21:29

type of players that we could have as like, Swashbucklers right.

21:31

Like crow's not the strongest. Right. We want her, you know, moving around and repositioning ourself.

21:37

the idea for Moss was that, you didn't have to be the most dextrous to win a

21:43

battle and Moss and actually a one V one and Moss it's essentially unlovable

21:47

because you, as the player can just get involved and like hold them.

21:51

still. Right. so we always wanted to emphasize it's about like quilts

21:55

positioning and using that. Smarts instead of just like these crazy, like timing windows

22:02

John: And. Chris B: which there's some of that they're like, it's there for the

22:05

players that want to, you know, go fast and do like crazy stuff in between

22:09

like the enemies it's all there. But for the average player, that's just kinda wants to

22:13

like walk through the combat. we tried to set that up,

22:16

And. that was one of the, actually the other big learnings that we had in

22:20

the second most killing room was, right at the end of the ruins.

22:25

We had this big like climactic scene.

22:29

John: my God. Is it like damn near 20 Beatles in the fucking room?

22:33

And then you have like the explosive self detonating

22:36

Chris B: this is before the exploders show up, but there was, it was a combination

22:41

of, we had the Scorchers, which were the range guys that come in and shoot at you.

22:47

and if you remember how I said that the enemies take turns and mark,

22:51

when they're attacking, after we ship found a bug, uh, speaking to the dude

22:55

that busted out of the closet, these characters didn't respect that at all.

22:58

John: They fire on their own timer. Chris B: Yeah.

23:00

if they said they could go, they could go.

23:03

And we were spawning too many characters because, and this is.

23:08

I think an interesting lesson for level designers or combat designers out there,

23:14

kind of assess your skills and understand that you are very familiar with the game.

23:18

And my current rule for Moslems is if I feel challenged in the room is actually

23:26

probably too hard, it feels weird to say that because you're like, oh, you

23:31

know, you don't have this feeling. And then you have to remember, people are not playing this game seven hours a day

23:36

every day for years, putting it together.

23:38

And you build up this second nature. And I think that's what happened to ruins 100.

23:43

because of that, that was actually one of the biggest, like drop-off points.

23:47

People will get to that. And it's like this game that we're telling you, isn't about a combat difficulty and

23:53

everything, all of a sudden, boom, there's a wall that says, Hey, this skill that we

23:56

didn't tell you, you needed to be great at now need to be great at good luck.

24:01

Right? John: I know. I fall into that same trap CB, where I spent so long

24:06

massaging iterating on an encounter and experience that

24:09

I'll get bored and I'm like, oh, I need to make this more interesting for myself.

24:13

And, and that's the trap, right?

24:15

Chris B: I'm so guilty of that. John: That's the trap.

24:18

then you're kind of looking at it for your team's approval to

24:21

be like, oh yeah, this is cooler. Now I'm not bored anymore.

24:23

But you fall into that trap of like, Hey, now this is, challenging for you,

24:28

which is probably too hard for the gate.

24:31

The average player who's going to come into this kind of pretty fresh

24:33

and only played a handful of times. Chris B: I think that's where the like disciplined veteran designer steps in.

24:39

And, you know, we've talked about this.

24:42

Danny is incredible at this to a like frustrating level he can turn off Danny

24:49

Bula, the gamer, Danny Boulud, the design director, and he can just become Danny.

24:54

Bulla the average game player that can see the flaws in the game and

25:00

ask the frustrating questions that you're like, no, you know this.

25:05

and as soon as you get past, like, this is your coworker and they know

25:08

this thing and you look at it, he's like, no, he's actually someone off

25:11

the street that doesn't know why, why is your combat so much harder now?

25:15

Why is he getting overwhelmed?

25:17

Even though you can dispatch four of these guys, and it's not a problem, but all of a

25:21

sudden now players having these problems.

25:24

that's an incredible skill to learn is to like, be able to step out of your

25:28

shoes and step out of your body, right?

25:31

You have to become somebody new I'm still struggling, real hot like that.

25:35

I'm trying to learn that skill to be able to turn off.

25:38

And it's hard like that competitive edge.

25:41

It's hard to be calm. Like I know it's not because technically it's working.

25:45

It's fine, but I can't get over this like mental thing of like

25:48

this vulnerable, like, oh, I lose, John: I will not lose to something I created.

25:52

Fuck that. Chris B: I don't want to do that.

25:55

And it's like, it's selfish on my part and I need to be able to, do that

26:00

because it'll create a better product.

26:02

And at the end of the day, that's how you win, right?

26:05

John: it's crazy to have these expectations of like, Hey, not only are

26:09

you writing the test, so you know, all the answers, but then you have these

26:12

expectations on other people to be like, Hey, you helped me write the damn tests.

26:15

You know, the answers, why is this hard? It's like, no, no, no, but this there's a world of gamers that where

26:19

they're going to the curriculum. Right. And we we're stepping them through.

26:23

We want to make sure that they understand this and feel powerful.

26:26

there's something he said. I remember he, Danny, he mentioned on that react, speed run.

26:31

That was pretty cool. When you guys were talking about the alleged

26:33

jump and the little scramble that you do, where it's like, Hey, if the player

26:38

comes close and intends to make this jump, kind of give them that little

26:41

boost, Chris B: Yeah, we have markups, That wherever you see the scratch

26:46

marks or alleged grabs that Quill, you know, that's how she climbs up.

26:50

But also, they work as stumble.

26:52

So as long as she, as long as she is in the air, when she catches that

26:57

we just cheat you forward, there was actually a really great GDC talk,

27:01

that the guys that did, deciles, they actually showed a video cause they do.

27:07

I think it's kind of like just like a popular trick, with platformers,

27:10

but they showed what dead cells look like without their affordance.

27:14

And if you didn't make the edge, God, that game, I mean, the game's already brutal.

27:18

in like the best way I love that. Saul's such good game.

27:21

John: And the little Twitch interaction are pretty sweet.

27:25

Chris B: yeah. but without that affordance, just looked like a worst game, right?

27:29

Like, because giving, like, making the player just feel like a bad-ass like the

27:32

games like close enough, you made it. You're awesome. Keep going.

27:35

you want the game to challenge the player. You don't want the player to be fighting with your like input mechanics.

27:41

You want them to fight the enemies you gave them. The controller shouldn't be in.

27:44

John: liked that the controllers should not be.

27:47

Chris B: I mean it's essentially, was it, it was more a motive that said it, right?

27:50

It's like when you press jump, you should jump.

27:53

John: Immediate feedback, I like that, man.

27:55

These are, these are gems, CB gems from the mind of a veteran, a game designer,

28:00

15 years in the game now wearing a design director hat Congrats on that,

28:06

bro. well-deserved well-deserved before we get to that, I just want to wrap

28:11

up this gameplay loop thing. When you're talking about Ford insists and you're talking about VR,

28:16

you know, it's a whole new genre, a whole new world for a lot of players.

28:18

Mosque was kind of that first dive for a lot of people and curious two things.

28:25

When did possession come into conversation or as a mechanic in the game.

28:29

Did that break the flow that you wanted to create with the combat?

28:33

Did that kind of create opportunities that weren't there before?

28:37

Speak to me about possession.

28:39

Chris B: possession. was there from day one,

28:43

far as I know. So ever since I touched them OSS, I played Mosman jumping wasn't in the game.

28:48

but possession was one of the core pillars of the game because Masa is a VR title.

28:55

Right? So one of the most important questions that we asked whenever we

29:01

would talk about the game is why VR?

29:04

Why is Moss VR, right? What makes it not just flat game, right?

29:10

That you could play on an Xbox or PS4 or whatever.

29:13

Right. And you being able to reach in and affect the world was one of

29:18

like the core tenants of the game. And not only is grabbing enemies, supposed to be for combat, but

29:27

they're also your tool belt. Right?

29:29

So we. You know, it took a lot of inspiration, from like Zelda, Dungeons and puzzles

29:36

and, you know, link has his bombs. He has his hook shot.

29:39

He has all this stuff. Well, we didn't have, or want an inventory system.

29:43

Cause we wanted to be like a nice streamline, like simple

29:46

game for people to play. So your enemies were actually your tool belt to use for your puzzles.

29:54

a lot of the times you would see that the rooms would show up and the pattern

29:58

would be you'd encounter a new enemy.

30:00

You would fight them to learn how they react and you get to beat

30:03

them up and see what they do. And the very next room you use, one of them on what their, function

30:09

as the, as the puzzle bit is. And then it's like, Okay.

30:12

cool. Let's go do some other things. And now here's like a real test.

30:16

Do you remember how these guys work? Do you remember like what we wanted you to do, but now it's not straightforward.

30:22

John: that's a good point. I'd never really thought

30:24

about that. That your enemies were your Zelda items, right?

30:28

like, it's like, Hey, I'm going to pull this beetle to this place that I can

30:31

access so they can hit the lever or

30:34

I'm gonna use the beagle that shoots because I don't have a projectile or

30:38

I'm going to blow up or I have the bomb.

30:40

Right. I'm going to go move the bomb over here. And that's going to unlock the passageway.

30:43

that's sweet and minimal. Chris B: They're all there.

30:46

John: Amazing. so I guess for combat, it was just, an acceptance.

30:50

It was just like, Hey, this is part of your tool belt.

30:53

If they use it, combat is easier.

30:55

And that's okay. Because combat is not main part of the experience.

30:59

Chris B: the one thing that actually did kind of change and I

31:04

felt bad for the AI a little bit. John: you can just tie them up and be like,

31:09

Chris B: actually you used to be able to, and this is something,

31:11

that we, we found out that we needed to be really conscious about.

31:15

one, the AI used to have faces, the way their, their helmets are.

31:19

Like, you can kind of see their eyes, but they used to have expressions and it felt

31:23

awful mugging these dudes, you felt bad.

31:27

And then on top of that, you could actually possess

31:30

something and beat them up.

31:32

So they couldn't defend themselves, then made Quill feel like a bully.

31:38

John: Yeah. Chris B: what we ended up doing is you can only hit them once when they're

31:44

possessed and then they break free. You do double damage.

31:47

If you remember, Danny talking about that feature that we hooked up and snuck

31:50

in there, you get, you get your crit, but to make it fair, on the backend.

31:56

I put in that if the AI gets broken out of possession, by damage

32:00

immediately reset their attack time, or they get a free swing.

32:03

So as soon if, if you're just wailing on them and you break them

32:07

out of that and you don't Dodge, they get to hit you back for free.

32:11

John: Gotcha. Chris B: Which, I mean, it's fine because there's ways to manipulate it.

32:14

But for the people that just want to mash on it, it actually makes it feel more

32:18

like a fight instead of them just smoking.

32:20

It's like, Yeah, they get the first hit, they get a second hit, but then they get hit back.

32:24

Right. And it actually feels like a fight instead of you're

32:26

John: it does. Chris B: stomping these guys.

32:29

And you're the bully. John: That's interesting.

32:31

Again, going back to like, who is Quill? What type of character is she?

32:35

Right. How do you want players to feel when they're, maximally, optimizing

32:38

everything that the game allows for them to do and cool is not a bully.

32:41

It's not what she is. Chris B: is. not a bully.

32:44

John: Going back to CRISPR rasa, the design director at poly arc.

32:47

Now, how does that feel?

32:49

What's your day to day? Like what's changed from director date.

32:54

Chris B: there are days where it just feels awesome, in a sense of

32:58

like, it's not that different than there are other days where you're

33:00

like, oh, I'm responsible for. So much more now.

33:04

And I think that, I think the biggest change is I'm effectively

33:07

doing less, but also doing more.

33:10

the best, analogy is, you know, you play like an RTS, right?

33:15

play some StarCraft, right. I used to be just the space Marine and I was down in the trenches getting

33:20

stuff done, and I loved it down there.

33:23

you know, was my comfort zone and now I'm actually zoomed out and I need to

33:27

be more mindful of not just my little area, the things that I control.

33:32

It's not just, the AI, the combat, it's, how's the whole experience flow together.

33:36

now I'm starting to have to about staffing.

33:39

What is, the project look like two years from now, what are we going to need?

33:44

so it's not just specifically, game-related, you know, it's a bit of like

33:49

operations stuff that goes along with it.

33:51

there's a whole new skill set. John: How do you look ahead?

33:54

far out into the development cycle of like, where are we going to be?

33:57

What are we going to need? Making those types of calls?

33:59

What are some tricks? Tips, lessons learned so far in the journey?

34:04

we're in that director hat. Chris B: it's a good question. I'm still trying to learn those answers, myself, right now, honestly,

34:10

I am fortunate to be surrounded by more experienced directors.

34:17

so I'm kinda, looking at the design and like we're talking through stuff,

34:20

but also we get into like our leads, like director meetings and stuff.

34:24

And I kind of just try to sit there and be quiet trying to start seeing what,

34:28

our audio director, our engineering director are talking about and seeing

34:33

how they think about these problems.

34:35

And so I can start trying to apply those same things to design, really

34:39

a lot of it right now is just like understanding scope, work back from,

34:43

okay, this is where we want to be. This is where we want, to potentially ship something, right.

34:48

These are the feature sets we need. When do these need to come online by, and then just, get rough time

34:55

estimates, guests, and then put it in a chart and it's like, does it fit?

35:00

then you start getting to the, like, even before you start doing things,

35:03

it's like, what gets cut Right?

35:06

John: cut early cut often. Chris B: yeah. if we come back around or there's a DLC pack or something, it can come back.

35:12

John: I think that's so powerful. You know, a lot of people can feel pressured to have

35:17

to fake the funk or speak up.

35:19

And I love the fact that you feel comfortable in this environment on

35:23

that awesome team where it's like, Hey, I'm at the director table.

35:26

I trust my teammates. They trust me. I'm going to sit, listen, and learn.

35:30

then speak up, ask questions, learn more, bring it back noodle, come back.

35:34

Right. Get better level of learn from the people around you that have done it before.

35:38

I think that's extremely valuable insight and advice for any of us, right?

35:42

Like rising into a new role, being promoted, feeling like, alright, day one, I got to act like my

35:48

new role and it's like, well, still, shut up, listen and learn and then go.

35:54

Right. You'll get it. There's no need to rush.

35:56

Chris B: one of the bigger differences, right. Is getting buy-in from the team.

36:01

A lot of times in the principal design role, I was told what to be working on.

36:07

Right? Like we, as a design team would be like, Hey, you know, there's XYZ

36:11

rooms that need to get made, or we need to make this many weapons.

36:15

Right? brassica take care of the weapons.

36:17

Like these are the three we need are there, abilities, things like that.

36:21

let's just get them implemented and do that. Now being at the director role, we apologize.

36:28

Like It is a very, collaborative environment.

36:31

And the last thing any of us want is to feel like someone is just kind of

36:37

being like, we're doing it this way. Right. I'm the designer we're doing that.

36:40

Right. Pauly, Eric is very good about, designers being like the shepherds of ideas.

36:46

John: Shepherds of ideas. Okay. Chris B: you know, those can come from anywhere, but it also helps to kind of

36:51

like start the conversation I've been doing a lot more doc writing you know,

36:55

we're going back full sail, was a GDD

36:58

day one. John: yeah, Chris B: I spend a lot more time in confluence.

37:02

now, getting these pages together and just like having meetings, you know,

37:06

socializing ideas to get buy in, not only, to kind of get people on the

37:10

same page, but also to like check my ideas, get them pushed, poke that.

37:15

cause a lot of times, what I'm proposing as the starting point.

37:18

And you know, you need everybody that has different views, different

37:22

ideas, things that they want to get it to that next level

37:25

John: it's funny, right? Because documentation is something we'll talk early and then you come

37:28

out of college thinking like, all right, the way to design is write the

37:32

Bible, you know, however long it is.

37:34

And then you put it in front of the team. And then this is how the game gets made.

37:37

And I don't know about you, but I know for me, it was not that at all.

37:41

Chris B: I haven't done it until like four months ago.

37:45

John: even though you don't use it until 15 years later in

37:48

your career, you will use it.

37:50

Documentations are effective.

37:52

It is super important, especially when you're guiding a team and sharing

37:56

a vision to a big group of people to.

37:58

shepherd? everybody has an idea what this game can be.

38:01

you're kind of taking those first stabs at creating a box of like,

38:06

all right, these are the things we're going to play with it.

38:08

And we've talked about. Chris B: so we're working on an unannounced project, right?

38:12

and we're growing the team size and having these documentation there for onboarding

38:19

is probably the most valuable for it is because as people come on,

38:23

you know, you can point them and be like, look, here's this here's that.

38:26

And, Using like decision docs and stuff like that, you can be like, look,

38:30

here's actually the list of things. We, discussed through why we went with one over the other and it really helps

38:36

people, that onboard to the team, understand the team's mindset you spend

38:41

the time writing these docs and then you get that time back on the ramp

38:46

up of every new person that joins the team actually saves you time because

38:52

you'd be having these conversations. If you didn't have the doc and while you're still going

38:56

to have these conversations. And I think it's very important to have them cause it's still, you know, it's

39:00

good to check in challenge the idea, you know, talk through, maybe there's

39:03

some stuff that new, fresh eyes spring that you're like, oh actually the rest

39:08

of the team didn't think about that. You know, that's actually not that hard to slot in.

39:12

this is great, but you skip over a large chunk of the same question that gets

39:19

answered in doc and everybody reads that. Like that makes sense.

39:22

John: yo, 1000000000% CP 1000000000%.

39:25

The time you spend now will pay for itself, it was scale

39:28

up and squared, right? Like for each person that comes behind

39:32

you know, it's like having a FAQ that you kind of keep building on.

39:35

saves a bunch of time. And then it gives people an entry point to

39:38

ask a question like, Hey, I read everything and nobody asked this

39:41

question. Have we thought about this? And oh shit, we haven't.

39:44

And that's one of the best ways that you can onboard is to spend the time, when

39:50

people are not around or not available, cause that'll happen in what we do.

39:53

we'll be locked up in meetings. We'll be on some trip or on PTO or having a kid or something like that.

40:00

And you're not readily accessible. That's a great opportunity for you as a new person on the team.

40:05

Read through the docs, see whatever videos or presentations

40:08

get up to speed verse yourself.

40:11

So you can have deeper conversations when you do have that.

40:14

One-on-one time with the director, the lead, whoever.

40:18

that's a sign of age and experience writing documentation, having to get

40:23

good sharing the knowledge, not just keeping it only on your shoulders and

40:27

be like, Hey, you need to answer it. Just come to me. It's like, you're not always going to be there.

40:30

Chris B: Also put funny gifts. John: Images.

40:34

Yes. Images and videos. you don't need a million words when a gift can sell it for you.

40:40

Right? Absolutely. I want to take a step back.

40:43

You went to full sail.

40:45

We all kind of went around that same time to get our game dev education,

40:50

to get work in this industry. I'm curious.

40:53

What, was it for you that inspired this craft?

40:56

This calling was it a certain game? What

40:59

Chris B: Well, John: led you to full sail?

41:01

Chris B: I got an intense when I was three. my aunt got it for me and my parents always tell me that, my

41:08

aunt apologized to my mom because she thought she ruined my life

41:13

because that's all I did. Right. Like I got an Nintendo.

41:16

I got super Mario, got the teenage mutant ninja turtles game.

41:19

That is way too hard for a three-year-old to play.

41:22

John: oh man. The one way, like get in the turtle van and you're

41:25

in the sewers and stuff. Chris B: It wasn't until like watching a, like, AGDQ run dude.

41:30

It's random. You have to go like into rums and like find stuff.

41:34

and rockets and it's random or whatever. I just, as a kid, I played the first three levels and got into

41:38

the turtle van and turned it off. John: Yeah. I don't think I ever got past that.

41:41

Cause I couldn't fucking find the rocket.

41:43

I was like, how do I get through this obstacle?

41:46

I don't, I don't know. Chris B: yeah, it was just, I played that.

41:48

And then, duck hunt, use the cheat, put the gun on the TV.

41:52

So you couldn't miss it. It was terrible tracking back then.

41:55

It's okay. I just always played games.

41:58

it's all I ever really wanted to do.

42:00

I guess it was like trying to figure out how I could just play video games all day.

42:06

at the time I wanted to get into games programming Twitch streaming and stuff,

42:11

which actually I am super grateful.

42:13

I was born when I did cause dude, 10 years later, I'd be trying to be a pro gamer.

42:17

I know it I've been trying to make the NFL for video games.

42:20

John: yeah, me too. Me too, man. This was an option.

42:23

This wasn't available for us. There was only, Hey, you want to play games and make money, make good money.

42:28

You better learn how to make them. That's pretty much what it was,

42:31

Chris B: from an early age, wanted to do that.

42:34

And what's really funny. And I'm glad that I had that figured out from an early age.

42:38

Cause me and my buddy to is in high school.

42:43

We played midnight club too. And we played the out of that game.

42:48

We think we're the best. And there's no way to prove it back then.

42:52

know, there's no leaderboards, there's no nothing.

42:55

So what did we do? John: Remind me again, your hometown.

42:57

What was your like local hometown unbeatable champ of like, uh, what

43:01

Chris B: Haverhill, Massachusetts. John: Avril? Massachusetts

43:04

Chris B: we know where the best and we're like, we need to go find, better players.

43:08

Right. So we got basic HTML skills.

43:12

So D builds us a website.

43:14

I think we were like, SRS, like speed race, and set some super

43:17

cheesy whatever clan name. we put this up and we're like, you, you want to come race in our league?

43:23

Like we were trying to organize like, race nights and stuff.

43:25

So we could like have point standings and like, dude, we were into it.

43:28

one of the rules was, if you wanted to join the league, you had to

43:33

race us and beat us right right.

43:39

So we get, just a message from these two guys.

43:43

And they're like, yo, we wanna, we want to join like whatever.

43:46

Okay, cool. and I'll never forget, we loaded up and, you know, we were

43:51

racing in, in Paris or whatever. And one of the things is like the motorcycles in that game were so touchy.

43:57

If you touch them, you can just dump people off their bikes.

43:59

So you just never raced with a motorcycle online.

44:02

Cause you're you're a fool. Right.

44:04

And these two dudes roll up to the line with motorcycles.

44:07

Right. And me and D are just laughing like you gotta be kidding and we go off the line.

44:12

We go to. You know, we're playing cutthroat, right.

44:15

Dump them. They just Jack the brakes, we miss them.

44:18

And then off they go and we never saw him again. John: Oh

44:21

Chris B: that was coming So we get smoked.

44:24

Right. John: yeah. The fast acceleration is

44:26

Chris B: you know, once they're gone, we don't touch them. And afterwards, so, you know, we talked to them and they're like,

44:31

yeah, you guys totally can race with us and come to find out.

44:35

The two of them were developers at rockstar that worked on midnight club.

44:39

So rockstar find out about our website and these dudes are like,

44:43

yo, let's go stomp on these guys because they think they're good.

44:45

Right. luckily, 15, six year old me had enough, like wherewithal and forward thinking that

44:52

I, have the guy's contact information.

44:54

Right. So I hit them up and I'm like, yo, I want to make games.

44:58

what do I do? And his name is Devin hammock.

45:02

John: Yeah. Shout out to Devin, Chris B: You know, I told him at the time I wanted to go to Japan.

45:06

John: which was like the only, video game school in existence.

45:10

Chris B: it's the only, game school they knew about at the time.

45:12

and he's like, that sounds great. And he was like, yo, just graduate and hit me up.

45:17

And it was one of those things, like, what else is the guy gonna tell me?

45:20

You know, I'm just some kid, whatever. And it was just like, yeah, just hit me up.

45:23

When, when you up. John: get that paper and then hit

45:26

me up. Get that golden ticket. Chris B: instead of going to Japan, I ended up going to, full sail,

45:31

John: How do you learn about full sail? Chris B: so I was taking night classes at, the community college.

45:37

cause my high school didn't have like a programming course.

45:40

So I was learning Java and it was so funny, there was a student in our class

45:44

and like I showed up to the lab early and he was just playing unreal tournament.

45:48

Right. So sit down and he had like a bootleg disc, so we just

45:54

put it on all the machines. Right. John: That's how it starts.

45:57

Chris B: I started playing on real with him and, you know, I told him,

46:00

I was like, yeah, you know, I'm going to, I'm learning to program. They're like make games and stuff.

46:04

And he was like, have you heard of this place called full sail?

46:06

John: Wow. Chris B: I was like, no, what is, this?

46:09

Right. And so he told me about it and it was, yeah.

46:11

look it up. I never saw this dude again.

46:15

I don't know. I'll take, my lucky chance, my divine intervention.

46:19

What is the hero's journey yet? It's like the divine intervention,

46:22

John: yeah. Yeah. It's like the help from beyond the whatever.

46:25

Chris B: Yeah. I'll take it. It's my help from beyond, you know, what everybody needs

46:28

it, it's, part of the journey. and he told me about it,

46:31

John: it's Chris B: I looked it up for real, my parents were.

46:34

Way more excited about me going Florida's closer.

46:39

My grandparents live down there, Washington was so far away and scary.

46:44

so it just worked out that, you know, they looked at it and this seems good.

46:47

got accepted to full sail. And so we went there.

46:50

John: This person, this, specter from another dimension is probably

46:54

like future you from the world that didn't become a game.

46:57

Developer came back as like, what was the turning point in my life?

47:01

It's like, hi, I'm going to come and tell Chris about full sail.

47:03

And then this is going to change the trajectory. His life

47:06

Chris B: yeah. John: about full sail and it was on the east coast.

47:09

Chris B: I locked out best fail of my life.

47:12

was I failed programming too. So full sail is interesting because they're, their

47:16

curriculum is month by month.

47:18

John: Yup. Chris B: And so when you fail a class, you just repeat the class,

47:21

but the group that you joined with. Leaves your ass behind, and then you just joined the ranks of

47:28

whatever groups coming through. Right. so I fail programming too.

47:32

retake programming too. And I end up in Danny Bullis class.

47:37

John: Danny Bula, who is director at poly Ark.

47:40

Interesting. Chris B: yeah, funny how that, works.

47:43

you know, him and I become friends, we make it through, we get out

47:47

of full sail and the, the career placement at full sail was fantastic.

47:52

John: Yeah, Chris B: Rob Coldwell was setting, everybody up.

47:55

And I remember I went into his office and he was like, Chris, I

47:58

don't have a job for you, but I have a paid internship in Hawaii.

48:05

John: my goodness. Chris B: I was like, Rob, that Sounds like a job.

48:08

even like, it's not permanent. It's only six months.

48:11

And I was like, but I get to go to Hawaii. John: Fuck.

48:14

Yeah. Chris B: Right. And he's like, Yeah.

48:16

So I'm 20 out of college. He just told me I'm going to get paid.

48:20

Not only did I get paid, you know, they paid for my apartment in a high

48:24

rise in Honolulu that shit's expensive.

48:27

I was a 15 minute walk from Waikiki beach.

48:30

It was awesome. so we go there, and I'm just working.

48:34

Actually. I was working in an unreal engine, on VR Atlanta cyberspace was named the

48:39

company And they were doing VR tech and stuff for companies, using unreal three.

48:46

So my career actually kind of started in VR

48:49

John: and on unreal Chris B: and on unreal

48:52

John: what the hell did VR even consist of at the time, man?

48:54

Chris B: Oh dude. it was, like those big, like the Octo, like things that you put the in takes like

49:00

three generators to run used to only see them in like science centers and

49:05

stuff. John: okay. Okay. For sure.

49:07

Chris B: Yeah. We had like two of those in the office, which is funny, cause we

49:10

would put people in them and then we would just play shooters and it'd

49:12

be like people on keyboard and PC versus the people in the VR sets.

49:15

And they'd just get smoked. You can't, you can't compete with keyboard

49:19

mouse. John: still true to this day, man.

49:21

People won't control the of people on keyboard and mouse, people on

49:24

touch screens versus and mouse. Yup.

49:26

Chris B: Yup. as my internship was, finishing up, I remembered, I was like, all

49:33

right, I gotta find a real job. I was like, yo, where's that dudes contact.

49:36

Right. And I was like, it's time to hit Devin up John: Yeah.

49:39

Chris B: hit him up. I was like, yo, I graduated.

49:41

I'm just finishing up my internship, can I send you my resume or send

49:45

rockstar my resume? John: long was this?

49:48

By the way, this is like 16 to 2021, right?

49:50

So it's like five, four or five years. And a lot of people I don't know about you, man, but at 16, I

49:55

wasn't really good about storing people's contact information, man.

49:58

I'm curious to like where you put this thing, how

50:00

Chris B: Shout out to AOL instant messenger, John: Oh my gosh.

50:04

Okay. So like you had a screen name Chris B: I had a skin name and AOL was still in Vogue, luckily enough,

50:10

John: what was your screen name back in the day, man, if you don't mind me asking.

50:13

Chris B: gaming addict. John: Clean, simple, straightforward.

50:16

I like it. So you got ahold of him through aim.

50:18

Chris B: yeah, I got ahold of him through aim. and he was like, send me.

50:22

I shit. You not the next day I had a phone call from rockstar, HR

50:26

wanting to set up an interview. John: Was it a Sarah Shaffer?

50:30

Chris B: yeah. Sarah called me and wanted to set up an interview, but this dude straight

50:34

up just got my resume, walked into her office and was like, call this kid

50:38

John: That was a special time. And from what I recall, rocks off San Diego was tight knit.

50:42

They all knew each other and it was no

50:45

bullshit. Chris B: angel studios, John: was angel students at the time.

50:47

Right. So they were like, it was pretty flat.

50:50

Everybody just had that ease to just open doors, walk up and

50:54

tell people, Hey, call this dude. Yeah, no problem.

50:56

Let's do it. Let's get a hold of. Chris B: Yeah.

50:58

So I got that call did the phone interview.

51:01

I was interviewing as a networking UI programmer.

51:05

John: will you particularly strong in those classes at full sail?

51:08

Chris B: I made it out of networking by the skin of my teeth.

51:13

It's so not at all, actually, but I knew enough to get myself a fly-out interview.

51:19

and so I get to rockstar and man, let me just tell you the hilarity of going

51:26

out to California, San Diego, right?

51:28

it was like in December. I had my nice interview stuff.

51:33

And then the rest I'm just wearing shorts. I'm coming from Hawaii.

51:35

I'm going there. It was the coldest fucking December on record.

51:39

So I'm in the hotel that they have.

51:41

I have the heat crank to 80. I'm freezing my ass off, which Slater's trying to get ready for this interview.

51:47

John: Yeah, Chris B: so you know, the, the van comes to pick me up because the

51:51

camera in the car, cause I'm only 20. and it takes me to, to rockstar headquarters and we get in, you

51:57

get into that, that front lobby, it's got the rockstar logo.

52:00

And at this point, the fan boy in me is just losing it, dude.

52:05

I don't know about you, but vice city was the shit for

52:09

John: Um, my goodness. Chris B: midnight club too, but then vice city was awesome.

52:15

like I'm in a rockstar building John: dude, the games don't get any bigger.

52:19

I think, only compare them to like a Nintendo, right?

52:23

Like that's where they sat for me. Chris B: for sure.

52:25

And so Sarah's like taking me back to the interview room and as I'm

52:29

walking by, You know, I'm trying to look around and see whatever.

52:32

And as I walked by, I just see what looks like cars, race orange street.

52:37

And I was like, yo, they were her on Newman. That club. I was like, if I get this job, I can work on a new midnight club.

52:41

John: You make that connection instantly. Chris B: I'm like, that's what we'll play in for today.

52:45

And so they sit you down in the wrong man, and I'm sure as you remember

52:50

rockstar interviews along, you know, we were there for a full day you know,

52:53

I'm sure every place is different. but for people that are, wanting to get in the industry or they're interviewing and

53:01

like the process and stuff, I think the biggest thing that you need to remember on

53:06

interview stay calm because the questions are going to continue to get harder

53:13

until they find something you don't know.

53:18

And then we're going to see how you, especially For junior positions.

53:22

right? Imagine like as more, more veterans stuff like the tests kind of go away,

53:27

John: Yeah. Chris B: once you've made it 10 plus years in an industry where like all

53:30

you probably, you probably got this. John: Yeah.

53:33

We're looking for other things in our senior leadership

53:36

principal directorial level, right? Like more of the soft skills.

53:39

How do you work? You know, how do you handle conflict and all the shit and the junior level?

53:43

Yeah. Chris B: Oh, John: basically, we're trying to figure out what are your strengths

53:48

and what are your weaknesses? Chris B: So I actually, like, I flew through like the networking portion of

53:55

it, like basic programming was great.

53:57

John: Are you wiped any of this? Are you pseudo coding?

54:00

Chris B: we're whiteboarding all this? like writing it out, which honestly is terrible.

54:04

Cause I have awful handwriting and I'm on a whiteboard and I'm

54:07

nervous trying to remember syntax.

54:09

and just like it was, so in comms, Ted Carson

54:13

John: Ted Carson. Yeah.

54:16

Chris B: and Ted just start asking me math questions, we didn't even

54:21

just straight, a guy and he's very good at it I'm not,

54:25

John: at valve now, right? Chris B: uh, I think so.

54:28

but yeah, he just started asking questions and then we just got into vector math

54:33

John: it's always going to get to vector math,

54:36

always Chris B: it's a very important skill and one that you would have thought

54:40

I would have, looked into more,

54:42

John: out to Chris B: for real. John: What type of preparation did you do before going into the interview?

54:48

Anything you touched up on research

54:51

Chris B: yeah, it was just like, you know, Like the C plus plus, primary, you know,

54:55

like my polymorphism, you know, all, all the basic like data structure type stuff.

55:00

I was mentally prepared for, you know, programming stuff and

55:06

networking, like all that.

55:08

And, you know, I had my basic math skills, but I probably should have brushed up

55:12

on them a lot more because I will say what felt like an eternity in that

55:17

room was based on these math questions.

55:21

And it was like, finally hit a question.

55:24

I Don't know the answer to cool. Let's talk through it.

55:27

We start talking through it and then Ted's kind of like slow playing it a little bit.

55:33

luckily, Michael Carrington

55:35

also there, John: So it was Ted and Mike with a

55:38

tool like Chris B: 10 of Micronet. Yeah. John: Nice.

55:40

Chris B: and Mike throws me a bone.

55:42

And kind of gives it like hard push

55:45

John: what about the Chris B: something straight up obvious.

55:48

Right. It's like put the key in the door.

55:53

he kind of gets me up my way. And then from there on out, honestly, it was like, terrorize me a question

55:58

and the mic would work through. It with me and dude, I thought I failed the interview.

56:03

I was done in my John: but I thought, you got through it.

56:05

I Chris B: we made it through, but it was a tool assisted video at that point because

56:10

John: it's not officially sanctioned. Chris B: yeah, no so was the end.

56:14

so we finished and then I went back, I thought I was done, dude.

56:18

John: There was no design portion. You were coming in as an engineer.

56:21

Chris B: yeah, it was an engineering position. and so I went back to Y and I was like, whatever

56:27

John: you didn't feel good about it. Chris B: I did not, I did not feel good at all.

56:30

just based on that last portion, everything, up to

56:32

that point, I felt great. John: Talk to me about like cope with that.

56:35

Talk to me about like any self care, any self self-medication

56:39

afterwards? Chris B: I went back and one of my roommates at the time we just sat down and

56:45

we just played a shit ton of gears of war. John: Ooh.

56:48

Chris B: Yeah. We just sat down and were like, nah, we just need to chainsaw some people.

56:53

And we just, like, we just played, like I affectively was like, okay.

56:57

whatever. I remember waking up to my phone ringing and.

57:02

I actually didn't think anything of it. Cause I was like super tired.

57:04

It was like a couple days later. Right. It was like over the weekend.

57:07

So it was like a Tuesday John: you interviewed on like a Friday?

57:11

Chris B: It was like a Thursday. I flew home Friday.

57:14

yeah, so my phone rang like whatever. And then like my brain, like the circuits finally like fired and dude,

57:20

I sprung out of bed and leaped grabbed my phone, picked up and it was Sarah.

57:25

And she was like, Hey, we'd love to extend you an offer.

57:28

I was just like, yes. don't do that.

57:32

Don't say yes, John: It happened to my ass too, man.

57:36

When I got that midway offer, I was like, yes, not here in anything.

57:41

Not countering. Chris B: I didn't even know what they offer.

57:44

I said yes, like, don't don't do that.

57:47

John: don't worry about any of that shit. Chris B: they paid for moving.

57:49

They were, they were good about that. I didn't get myself, out of that.

57:53

Yeah. So got the job and was like, yes.

57:56

And then it Was all right time to get my ass out of Hawaii.

57:59

get there, figure out how to get my car from Florida.

58:03

Cause I left, the car with the grandparents. Cause not gonna need it in Hawaii.

58:07

how. To California, where am I going to live?

58:11

Like all that whirlwind and then

58:13

start working at rockstar, John: Was it midnight club?

58:16

Three Chris B: for minute club LA, John: midnight club LA.

58:19

Oh my gosh, man. Midnight club LA was fantastic, it just felt so good driving in LA.

58:26

It looked good. like you felt. Chris B: the craziest thing about it is I mean the map and the game scale.

58:32

It's not one-to-one but the streets, everything, it's absolutely correct to

58:36

the point where, you know, my sister came out to visit cause I was in California and

58:42

she's had never been out of Massachusetts.

58:44

So she came and we went up to LA, I started driving around

58:47

and I just knew where to go.

58:50

Like I had never driven in LA before that. And I'm like, yo, this race starts here and it ends here.

58:54

And as long as I don't go driving through the park, we should be okay.

58:58

John: Yeah, Chris B: it was crazy. How much of my, because this is all I was doing all day is

59:02

just driving around LA testing. John: You grew up in Massachusetts, went to school down in Orlando,

59:08

lived in Hawaii, and now you're in Southern California.

59:12

You're in Carlsbad, California, you know, what's life like at this point,

59:15

you know, like what do you notice anything about the people you're around

59:18

the people you're working with, you know, compared to what you grew up

59:20

around people, you went to school with Chris B: the west coast is way more relaxed.

59:23

John: Compared to the east coast. Chris B: West coast is way more chilled out.

59:27

I was maybe a little high strong, when I was still new into California,

59:32

it definitely like chilled me out. John: Which would mean was

59:36

Chris B: I don't know. I think it's on like a toggle John: okay.

59:39

Chris B: on all the time. John: Okay. That's true, man.

59:42

It's been a long time, man. So you get to come in and contribute to midnight club LA after being

59:47

a big fan of the franchise, eventually your on the red dead redemption team, man, and you putting those

59:56

networking skills to the test once again.

59:58

But I think you were also in a design capacity.

1:00:01

Chris B: So I came over as a technical designer and what's really funny

1:00:07

is, by this point, Danny is now at,

1:00:10

rockstar. John: you got him in Chris B: at that time I had been there enough, Danny was looking

1:00:14

for a new job or whatever. So I got his resume and I walked in

1:00:19

to Sarah and I was like, yo, all those guy. John: the cycle feeds itself, right?

1:00:22

History repeats itself. And Chris B: Yup. John: turns.

1:00:26

Chris B: So Danny had gotten hired and he got hired to work on red dead.

1:00:29

And at the time we were finishing up midnight club, we were working on the

1:00:34

south central DLC and then we were working on an unannounced racing game

1:00:40

project that never saw the, light day.

1:00:43

but while we were working on that, there was kind of like a shift in the studio

1:00:46

of people still staying to work on that. And then if people wanted to go on red, dead, and Danny came over and he was

1:00:52

like, yo, you need to work on this game.

1:00:55

John: Mm, Chris B: Cause I was like, I was hardcore man in a club.

1:00:57

I was staying on that team through and through it.

1:01:00

And Danny's like, get on this team now and when your homie tells you something

1:01:04

with that much conviction, listen.

1:01:07

So I was, like, yeah, I'd love to help out with that.

1:01:09

And they're like, great. we need, designers to work on the networking,

1:01:14

John: who do you have to approach out of curiosity?

1:01:16

Chris B: Mike Harrington. John: Oh Chris B: yeah. which was great because

1:01:19

John: He's your boss. Chris B: yeah, he was my direct report, at the time.

1:01:23

honestly, through out the development of midnight club,

1:01:27

he was absolutely my mentor.

1:01:30

you know, he sat right behind me. like, I told him that I wanted to Do gameplay.

1:01:34

I got a job as a networking UI programmer.

1:01:37

Cause I need to get in the door. I do anything. to get in the door.

1:01:40

But once I was there, I was like, yo gameplay is what I want to do.

1:01:44

And you know, we talked about it and I was just banging through like

1:01:48

networking UI, through my tasks. And we got at one point it was low and we needed, you know, a game mode

1:01:54

for the online, for midnight club.

1:01:58

And I was like, I can write that here's some ideas for it.

1:02:01

Like, I'd love to do this. And Mike was like, go right ahead.

1:02:04

You know? And I slowly started to like transition into gameplay and doing that stuff.

1:02:08

And so, you know, he knew that they needed people on red dead.

1:02:11

And I was like, I'd love to. You know, do that.

1:02:14

And the skillset of like doing the online,

1:02:16

John: yeah, Chris B: know, a weapon balancing the online action area, like all that stuff,

1:02:20

Mike was like, perfect, go, go have John: we'll help them out.

1:02:23

Go knock it out, man. Shout out to Mike for empowering you letting you control your own

1:02:28

destiny, Danny coming through and be like, yo, you need to come on this

1:02:32

project, you listening, you asking.

1:02:35

Right. And just having that rapport and getting on.

1:02:37

And when you got on, what did you see?

1:02:40

What did it feel like? Talk to me about your impressions, your learnings.

1:02:45

Chris B: man, it was so different. just because like

1:02:48

the way the, the red team was probably at this time already twice as

1:02:52

big as the midnight club team. and I was used to things being pretty isolated, in, in

1:03:00

like what I was working on. And so they're like, okay, you know, we got to take a look at the multiplayer.

1:03:06

You know, we, we need to bring over these weapons while at the time, like

1:03:09

multiplayer really was just getting going.

1:03:11

So there was only the single-player tunings for the game and the weapons for single player.

1:03:16

Like our OPO is shit as you get later in the game.

1:03:19

Right. Cause they should because the AI scales and everything like this.

1:03:22

So I remember one of the first things I. Was went in and just ripped, open the Excel sheet and

1:03:27

just rebalanced the numbers. Right.

1:03:29

And I was like, Yeah. it's fine. It's just like, for the multiplayer thing I was doing that

1:03:33

wasn't even thinking about it. And Alan blamed comes over and he's like, what are you doing?

1:03:39

John: Senior systems designer, Alan Blaine.

1:03:41

Chris B: And I was like, you know, I'm just trying to like hook

1:03:44

this up for that. He's like, you realize that's for the whole game, including single-player right.

1:03:47

And I was like, I do not, sir. I was like, oh, good.

1:03:52

Off to a great start over here now.

1:03:54

John: that's something amazing about rockstar is the amount of freedom

1:03:58

and unlocked accessibility that any developer has to make crazy changes to

1:04:05

the entire game is kind of unheard of for how big these games are and shout

1:04:10

out to you learning that the hard way.

1:04:14

Chris B: I mean, not only that, but it for awhile that I, found out that

1:04:18

designers didn't have access to code. John: Oh, but you did.

1:04:22

Yeah. Cause you're coming over. You have all your engineering

1:04:25

permissions. Chris B: Yeah. They never revoked that from me, which was both a benefit and a detriment.

1:04:30

cause you know, sometimes I had too much power.

1:04:32

John: What would you say to somebody in the similar, in the similar shoes?

1:04:36

Right. They're comfortable from engineering background makes the transition design

1:04:40

is used to just making the changes on their own, not check with anybody,

1:04:43

not asking permission, just doing it. would you say to that person?

1:04:47

Right. That's like, I can code, so I'm gonna just do it versus like, all right.

1:04:50

I have to shift thinking and go through the process, go through the pipeline.

1:04:55

Like. I always encourage people to, Hey, if you're comfortable in cold,

1:04:59

here are the keys to the kingdom. but guess, like you said, there's pros and cons.

1:05:03

Chris B: I think, and this is something that I don't think just

1:05:06

is for new people because I still do this, cause this excitement, right.

1:05:10

I'm going to, I'm going to preface this with like excitement gets all of us

1:05:14

and an idea hits you and comes over and there's this important step?

1:05:19

What is this going to touch? I think a great way to Like, put it is the longer the compile is the more

1:05:25

scared you should be of your change. Right.

1:05:28

You compile this thing in a compels instantly. Cool.

1:05:30

You mess with like two files. If you go to lunch, when you compile you better, get a very

1:05:36

senior person to come look over this change,

1:05:39

John: Yes. Like, hold on. why is the linker taking this

1:05:41

long? Chris B: rock star, we never really like peer reviewing at

1:05:45

least for what we were doing. Wasn't really like, I don't ever remember really doing that, like on

1:05:52

the nightclub or working on red dead, no one ever peer reviewed, unless we

1:05:56

were like really close to shipping.

1:05:58

John: when it really became hardcore, everything was peer reviewed.

1:06:02

Chris B: even, at the direct role, now, if I touch code, I have like

1:06:06

the game play engineer, you know, we peer review it together just

1:06:09

cause I now know what I don't know. Right.

1:06:11

And I'm like, let me get an, I, I think this is fine, but let me get an extra set of eyes.

1:06:15

Just like, can I do this better? John: I liked that you call out peer review CB because I'm a huge fan man.

1:06:21

And I find that it helps other people know what's going on in case

1:06:25

you're absent or missing or moved on to some other project or whatever.

1:06:29

It gives someone another set of eyes to call up.

1:06:32

Oh yeah. I know how that works. I can go fix it or something like

1:06:35

that, but, Chris B: it was like. My fourth day on the midnight club team.

1:06:40

And I ran into a crazy crash, Like I was doing something

1:06:44

with like, whatever it was. And I managed to crash the game so bad that Like cause I told Mike and it

1:06:51

was some very low level wherever they actually went and grabbed Dave Etherton

1:06:58

to come to my desk. Who is the, like the studio, like lead engineer.

1:07:03

John: isn't He like head of rage?

1:07:05

Chris B: Yeah. The head rage emerges from his den.

1:07:08

Right. And comes I'm four days into having a job.

1:07:12

And I'm trying to sit there as he does things with a visual

1:07:16

studio editor that I still don't know what happened in this day.

1:07:19

And I'm trying to pretend like I understand.

1:07:21

And then we start seeing assembly and I was like, no, no, we've gone

1:07:26

over to I do. John: were too low with too deep.

1:07:30

How do we come out of here? I don't even know what file that is.

1:07:35

Chris B: one of those, like, figured it out and just left.

1:07:37

I think he said hi and just like peasy. There.

1:07:39

was like a smoke bomb and he was gone, it was so

1:07:42

intimidating. John: I love that. The 10 stories, man.

1:07:45

I love his emails. I love his manner of speaking communication.

1:07:49

He's the guy that makes me think that it's like yo as game developers, we never

1:07:53

really have to grow up If we're good. If you're good,

1:07:56

there was a recent Twitter conversation. That was an awesome thread about moments on a game project that you

1:08:01

loved and you cited developing.

1:08:05

Stronghold for red dead redemptions.

1:08:08

Who was it? I don't know what doc it was. I don't know if it was

1:08:11

Chris B: liar, liars and cheats DLC. John: and cheats DLC.

1:08:14

Chris B: third one. John: Cause the first one was like

1:08:16

the free co-op mode that like blew people's minds.

1:08:18

Like what? This is free. That's amazing. Talk me through getting to design a completely unique game mode for the

1:08:25

online multiplayer, from scratch.

1:08:27

Malik is owning this thing. Like what, what was that like?

1:08:30

How did it even come to be? Chris B: this kind of blew my mind, right.

1:08:33

Because. A lot of the stuff that we were doing at the time, or that I was doing was

1:08:38

like, just setting up AI, basically building out like missions in the, the,

1:08:42

the free realm area, stuff like that. and then it came time.

1:08:45

We were like, yeah, we want a new game mode, And, Sri Pam was busy working on more co-op stuff.

1:08:51

Troy was building out multiplayer maps. So Chris Roberts looked at me and he was like, see you.

1:08:56

And I was like, okay, cool. John: Which when the game

1:08:59

Chris B: we actually got a little bit of extra designer firepower and Danny came

1:09:04

along and was like, cool, let's do this.

1:09:06

So John: it's your boy. Chris B: yeah, we finally get to work together.

1:09:10

cause he's been on single player doing missions.

1:09:13

I've been on multiplayer. We do not interact at all through in a work capacity,

1:09:18

through the entire development. And we finally were like, all right, let's make a game mode together.

1:09:22

And we walked into one of the back kinda like rec room areas.

1:09:27

We shut the door and we're like, we're not leaving until we have a game mode.

1:09:31

And we just started talking through what would be cool.

1:09:35

what did we play when we were growing up? What did we like?

1:09:37

Right. we talked through a lot of things, was it unreal tournament?

1:09:40

2001 had attack and defend.

1:09:43

Right. And it was like one of my favorite modes.

1:09:45

And it was like, what if we did it? Like, what does attack and defend look like in red, dead.

1:09:50

And then we were like, it's really different. It's a neat idea.

1:09:53

I think people really like it. So we wrote up, like what we wanted, like what the type of

1:09:57

objectives were going to be. Right. And then we wanted to have like that progression, just like you have in

1:10:01

the mode that it's like, you know, you get like your checkpoints to

1:10:04

push along and then you flip and the other team plays and that decides it.

1:10:08

It was a long mode. Like you played for a while. If you locked into a strong hold match, you were in it

1:10:12

for quite a bit. John: Can you tell me the, the objective that's like, kind

1:10:15

of territory control, right? Like ABC, I think it was five, some app, and then you kind of are attacking, try

1:10:21

to control and the defenses are trying to stop you from grabbing the spot and then

1:10:24

once you grab them, you can't flip them. Right. Like it's

1:10:26

kind of a Chris B: they were kind of different, but it was, yeah.

1:10:29

You either had to hold, um, hold some spots.

1:10:33

You had to crack a safe. So you had to get to get a player on the safe and you had to like, you know,

1:10:38

wild west is one person carrying the safe, everyone's just like covering fire.

1:10:42

TNTs flying around. And then.

1:10:45

Yeah, the last one finished off with, it became, I'm trying to

1:10:49

remember it to become like a death match where like the, the last one, they only had like X number of spawns

1:10:53

and you had to push in or like everyone lost lives or something like that.

1:10:57

we ended up putting that together. and then it was really funny because Danny also was going to help out

1:11:02

with networking, for the game modes.

1:11:05

Cause we got horse racing online. Cause you could only do that in single player.

1:11:08

So the liar and sheets we brought that new game mode, brought the

1:11:11

horse racing and then we brought all the gambling games to multiplayer.

1:11:15

but Yeah. Danny started working on the horse racing and then they needed him for some

1:11:19

single-player content for other stuff. So I got to work on my horse, racing to

1:11:22

John: from what I can recall, game modes and pitching a

1:11:25

rockstar is very different, man.

1:11:27

It's you just kinda like run it by it's at all, or you just kind of

1:11:31

put it in and then people play it and then like, all right, please.

1:11:33

Good. Keep working on it or Chris B: Looking back at it.

1:11:35

It was interesting. I don't feel like I should have had that much autonomy.

1:11:41

I really don't like looking back at it.

1:11:44

I could do whatever I wanted and people just kept checking

1:11:49

in on it and like, Yeah. things are working.

1:11:51

It's fine. But like, almost to like a detriment, there was no, like I just made these

1:11:55

actionaries it's like, what's your plan? I was like, I don't know. This feels cool.

1:11:58

And like, well, that's not the best way to develop things.

1:12:01

It worked out. But Yeah, I really, I just ran everything by Chris Roberts and Tom shepherd.

1:12:08

if they said it was fine, it was in right.

1:12:11

John: It's amazing. I think people would kill for that opportunities.

1:12:14

Days may be like, yo, I can write gamers for GTA online.

1:12:17

Just like that. Like what, like was Josh Nudleman?

1:12:19

Did he have a heavy hand in kind of, uh, shepherding this across the finish line?

1:12:24

Or you're just kind of the sanity check,

1:12:27

Chris B: Yeah. Nina was, uh, the Sandy check.

1:12:29

Like, at that point, everything kind of went through New York.

1:12:31

Like once the game shifts, we went through New York, but yeah, I don't

1:12:34

think like started to get looked at until like the last three months.

1:12:39

like, oh, we should probably, uh, you know, have like Sam, Dan, like

1:12:43

do some multiplayer play tests John: which, were amazing.

1:12:46

I remember some rowdy, rowdy matches in the office.

1:12:50

These were some of the most amazing times in developing

1:12:52

red dead that I can remember. It was just like the mandatory networking.

1:12:55

Playtests right. And you would get Sam on your team, Dan, on your team, you'd be on a team.

1:13:01

I'd make sure I was on the opposite team. You were on.

1:13:03

Josh would be there. And it was just so much fun, bro.

1:13:06

There was Chris B: Yeah, John: talking. You wouldn't be on the line that way we were playing these games.

1:13:11

Chris B: I mean, there wasn't money on the line, but we

1:13:14

shipped red dead and New York QA

1:13:17

John: Oh, that's Chris B: thought. They were thought they were good.

1:13:21

And you know, all through the thing, we were testing stuff.

1:13:24

I mean, and to be honest, the network, like the New York QA

1:13:28

team, fantastic team, and which is also why, I, I appreciated them.

1:13:32

They want to talk a little trash, wanted to say how their team would smoke us.

1:13:35

It was like that's fun. Let's ship this game and we're going to settle this.

1:13:39

Right. so it was us and a couple Diego testers versus New York, QA eight V eight.

1:13:49

We played a race to five in game mode.

1:13:53

John: Yeah. Cause you could do like playlist that just kind of randomly gave you game.

1:13:56

Chris B: Yup. And what's really funny is Chris Roberts, like through all of our, our

1:14:01

playtests and everything, Chris Roberts was fine at the game, not that great,

1:14:05

but he purposely always handicapped himself because if you remember red

1:14:09

dead had, the little auto assist, like

1:14:12

you could soft flock onto somebody.

1:14:14

John: you're like lock onto the body and then

1:14:16

like flick the stick and Chris B: they had allowed online, which, you know, whatever.

1:14:21

Chris Roberts never played with it. Never turned it on.

1:14:24

And of course abused the shit out of it whenever we were testing anything.

1:14:27

so New York QA is like auto snap off and just start laughing.

1:14:31

I was like, okay, this is fine. Chris Roberts has been in the hyperbolic time chamber, training with this mode.

1:14:38

And all of a sudden the guy that is usually at like mid to bottom of the

1:14:41

scoreboard is just smoking people.

1:14:45

So nothing changed for him. John: He's like, oh, why are we playing the same game that

1:14:49

did I break something? Chris B: I think the final score was, San Diego, five New York.

1:14:55

I don't remember the score, but I don't think they got more than two.

1:14:57

John: You know, my hometown is New York. Right. But I was signed to San Diego, bro.

1:15:01

So you guys always made me proud.

1:15:04

In fact, pretty much whatever team you're on.

1:15:06

Wasn't good hands, man. Even Troy, Troy was solid.

1:15:08

The whole, the whole multiplayer team. Right? You guys.

1:15:11

Yeah. You guys day in, day out working on that shit.

1:15:15

Getting good. we had some good times there you an ICB we developed, we got pretty close there.

1:15:20

we brought like Streetfighter to it. We, we built a little team.

1:15:24

We had fight nights at each other's cribs. We had cross studio rivalries where we

1:15:28

Chris B: Oh, John: belt across over to THQ wonderful times,

1:15:33

Chris B: I mean, just, just touch on that real quick, because I don't know

1:15:36

about you, but in my head, it's the coolest feeling like in the world, but

1:15:42

if you were like a bystander on the street, it probably looks so dumped.

1:15:45

So we were playing street fighter four I'd come out.

1:15:48

and we played basketball on Fridays with like high noon and

1:15:52

THQ and word got around that.

1:15:56

We had a solid fighting game squad and THQ was like, yo, do too.

1:16:02

Or like, great, we're going to settle this.

1:16:04

So I just remember we got off work.

1:16:06

We load into Sri pans, minivans.

1:16:09

Right. And the seats are like ripped out in the back of this thing.

1:16:12

like, we're going to war, we roll up Sri pans going a hundred.

1:16:17

He's really doing the speed limit by my head is way cooler.

1:16:19

Right. And the van door slides open.

1:16:21

And in my head, we just like, dude smoke comes out.

1:16:24

We're like amazing. And it's just like, John: Our music

1:16:27

Chris B: well, we got entrance music. John: music.

1:16:29

or NWL pick, pick your squad.

1:16:32

Chris B: the sheer, like, what are these nerds?

1:16:34

What are they carrying? John: our rockstar leather jackets.

1:16:37

You know what, our last names on this shit,

1:16:41

Chris B: Oh my God. It was the corniest in the best way.

1:16:44

John: Absolutely. Absolutely. At their house,

1:16:48

in this studio, in this suite playroom.

1:16:51

Chris B: Man. Their play room was awesome. John: it was.

1:16:53

Yes, it was, like you said, competition makes you better, the better the person

1:16:58

you play against the better you get. So you always, definitely made me better.

1:17:02

a lot of people can say, rockstar hard work.

1:17:04

You know, you put in a lot of time, it goes right into the game.

1:17:08

This is a game that's touched by millions of players. So, you know, what's a proportional time investment to the legend.

1:17:13

That is the games that rockstar makes and having our names be on them.

1:17:17

somehow to balance this out, we were pretty good with our like four

1:17:21

o'clock, four 20 breaks to go and

1:17:24

Chris B: Yeah. John: We had like a main cabinet in the, in the, game room and there was a lot of street fighter CE

1:17:29

Chris B: Oh, championship edition holds a very special place in my heart.

1:17:33

That game is not balanced at all, but oh, do I love it?

1:17:36

John: we found with look to be like NBA jam before NBA jam

1:17:39

was a thing before like magic Chris B: Hoops.

1:17:42

John: street hooves, which looked to be off-brand knock off.

1:17:47

Chris B: three on three. And man, it wasn't a good day.

1:17:51

If we didn't get to play some street hoops and CE

1:17:53

John: you felt it, you felt it right. Like something was off that day.

1:17:56

It's like Pence up. You go home and take it out in your home.

1:17:59

You. it was something I look forward to every day.

1:18:01

and it was a great reset button, you know?

1:18:04

like you stuck in some shit, some shit is not compiling, or you

1:18:07

can't figure out this damn a bug.

1:18:10

it was so nice when you would stand up for me desk, give me the

1:18:13

nod, yo it's time or vice versa.

1:18:16

And I'm like, fuck, I really want to figure this out, but, oh, I'm

1:18:20

so happy to step away from this. Right, And then forget everything, and just enter the arena with the homie

1:18:26

win, lose, or draw, back to the desk and be like, oh, that was awesome.

1:18:31

What the hell was I at? Oh, this, this is easy now after

1:18:34

Chris B: right. it's funny. Cause if you listen to what you just said, you know, you have

1:18:39

this, no, I want to finish this. I'm like right there.

1:18:42

And then you forget what you were doing.

1:18:45

And if we stop right there, that sounds terrible.

1:18:48

But then when you come back, what actually happens is, yeah, you

1:18:51

did forget everything you were doing, but it wasn't working.

1:18:53

So you forgot all the wrong stuff. Right.

1:18:56

And now you force yourself to re go through the problem because you've got to

1:19:00

remember where you work has legitimately.

1:19:02

You do forget where you're at, but in taking those steps to get back

1:19:07

to that point, there's a chance. That you don't get stuck because you go left instead of right.

1:19:12

In retracing, your steps, and then you blow past the problem.

1:19:15

I mean, there's totally a chance that you take all the same steps and you have

1:19:18

the same problem and you're like, shit. still stuck.

1:19:21

John: Yes. Chris B: that reset and like not banging your head against

1:19:26

the wall really important. John: Hell yeah.

1:19:28

Dude. They bring in that fresh perspective.

1:19:31

Taking that Chris B: And also it feels like a game studio.

1:19:34

When you get to go play some games plus that row, that room on a Friday, man was

1:19:38

always, a party cause I mean, rockstar table tennis rockstar San Diego made that.

1:19:44

And because of that, you had killers

1:19:47

that could play table tennis. I mean, my table tennis skills are because, Rafael Phillips,

1:19:53

I taught, him guilty gear. He taught me table tennis

1:19:56

John: I got to get him on the show. Chris B: absolutely do

1:19:59

you think I have stories? RAF has stories.

1:20:01

but that room yet. And then you had foosball.

1:20:03

I mean, people were real competitive in foosball

1:20:07

John: that's right. Chris B: you're trying to play on the main cabinet.

1:20:09

You're trying not to get spiked with Aaron, ping pong

1:20:12

balls flying out and you got the foosball guys just yelling.

1:20:16

John: Yeah. That was a good time, bro.

1:20:18

Good times. Eventually you get an opportunity from a homie and you make the decision that it's

1:20:27

time for you to see new opportunities to take your skills elsewhere.

1:20:30

How do you arrive to that point? What's the thought process going into that?

1:20:34

Chris B: We made it through red, dead, and at the time we were working on GTA five

1:20:39

you know, Dana and I talked about it You know, rockstar talked to us about crunch.

1:20:43

We got like a nice long break, everything like that. And we're like, cool.

1:20:46

If we start seeing this happen again, I think we need to look elsewhere.

1:20:50

Right? we're seasoned at this point. So you can kind of see the writing on the wall a little bit.

1:20:55

Danny got an offer, went off the bungee

1:20:58

John: made the move to Seattle before any of us.

1:21:00

Chris B: yup. And then, My Currington,

1:21:03

approach. John: current person, who was your mentor

1:21:06

boss and Chris B: Okay. John: tech interview.

1:21:09

Chris B: Right. Uh, came and approached me and was like, Hey, a couple of the

1:21:13

old midnight club guys are leaving and we're starting up a studio.

1:21:17

We want you to join us. John: Oh, wow.

1:21:20

Chris B: And I was like, I don't know. And I called up Danny and told him about it.

1:21:24

And he was like, you have to leave right now. He's like, do not miss this opportunity.

1:21:29

John: Yeah, bro. Yeah. I mean, I would say that the type of opportunity that you

1:21:34

don't even have to think about. Right? Like you, you kind of know you're in good hands with a mentor.

1:21:38

That's kind of showing you a lot. You can continue to learn from in, uh, it was it kind of a

1:21:43

startup, you know, would they talk like, how Chris B: It was, uh, it was a startup.

1:21:47

we were trying, and I will say you absolutely should always think about it,

1:21:51

because spoilers studio got shut down.

1:21:53

John: The security of like a big studio

1:21:56

Chris B: rockstar still pumping, right? Like it's going it's going,

1:21:58

nowhere. it's that making quality games.

1:22:00

yeah, we started up a studio John: was tiny.

1:22:02

Giant. Chris B: tiny. Giant. at the time, we're going to bring AAA quality games to Facebook and mobile.

1:22:09

Yeah. I remember Facebook gaming. That was a thing. And what that taught us is that, if you don't understand how micro-transactions

1:22:15

work, your game's not going to be great. John: This is what it took to survive that

1:22:19

wave, right? Chris B: Yup. we made cars tracing, which we were like, what if, my club was more cartoony

1:22:25

and had like, did it Congress and power

1:22:27

ups? it was a fun game. it wasn't the best, but it was also made to be played in like Facebook sessions.

1:22:34

It was like, you could play networks. It was great for the time, but our like problem there is, Nobody

1:22:39

wanted to micro transact, anything. Cause they were like, whatever the game is fun and then they're just done.

1:22:43

And so then we put it on mobile, and we let you play.

1:22:48

with the first two vehicles, you could choose one of the two and you

1:22:52

could play only the first two races. And then you had to pay 2 99 to unlock the rest.

1:22:56

Right. Except for the fact that John: Yeah. Chris B: you play online and people will like, I don't need to upgrade shit.

1:23:01

The game is so fun. I'll just play with the base shit And just play online with people

1:23:04

and that's all anyone ever did. John: you still get the core game experience,

1:23:07

but you got you guys weren't running ads or anything like that.

1:23:11

There was no, other monetization. Chris B: this was all, super new.

1:23:13

This was before, Zynga single was quick on the take.

1:23:17

They pioneered how like mobile gaming worked and like

1:23:19

they understood that stuff. We came at it from a very gameplay focused.

1:23:24

yeah, we just want to make like a, a great game. Put it on mobile and people will buy this.

1:23:28

no they won't. John: so that was your first foray into like mobile gaming.

1:23:32

a tiny, giant imploded. Chris B: Yeah.

1:23:35

We were around for two and a half years, three years.

1:23:38

John: a solid run. That's a solid run.

1:23:40

And you're back on the market. You're a free agent looking for work and you go through the

1:23:45

gauntlets and evolve the offers.

1:23:47

You ended up taking a sweet offer to make the move up to Seattle at fifth cell.

1:23:53

Chris B: Correct. John: Talk to me about what fifth cell was like,

1:23:57

what was, what were you doing? What was the role? Chris B: yeah, so I went up, to facil as a technical designer.

1:24:04

John: Rockin TD hat. Chris B: Yeah. At that point, it was an interesting transition.

1:24:08

I think at the time when we all started to scatter from rockstar,

1:24:12

technical designer was becoming a more like accepted industry role.

1:24:17

you know, your designers, have programming chops, they like understand these things.

1:24:21

And that, that's what I advertise myself as. John: So anytime you saw a tech designer role, you're like, all right, that's me.

1:24:26

Chris B: or I would just apply for a game plan engineer or to

1:24:28

apply for a they play designer? And be like, I know you kind of said this, but about this?

1:24:33

John: Hey a good tip. Chris B: sometimes it works.

1:24:36

John: Yeah, Chris B: people like this, isn't what we're looking for. And I was like, okay,

1:24:39

John: that's a great tip. I think a lot of people today get caught up in the job role, the name of the

1:24:45

script, you know, without even reading it, the descriptions and lose out, right.

1:24:49

They're like, oh, that's not me. That's not what they're looking for. So I like what you're doing.

1:24:51

Chris B: Let them say no, John: Let them say no,

1:24:54

Yeah. Make the, make the application, your resume in the door, author it,

1:24:59

however you need to author it so that it matches what they're looking for.

1:25:02

But you know, advertise your skills that are answering the problems that

1:25:06

they're look. Yes. Chris B: don't.

1:25:08

Don't tell the things, cause I'll tell you right now, you'll

1:25:11

get found out real quick. John: Well, what I mean by tailoring is, Hey, if they're looking for a gameplay

1:25:16

programmer and you come from a tech design background, but 90% of the things they're

1:25:21

asking you to do, you can do right.

1:25:23

If you're like, all Chris B: Right. Right. John: I'm a gameplay programmer, right?

1:25:26

Like, Chris B: Sure. John: and make sure you know, your victim math, when you go into those

1:25:29

interviews, that's all you need to do. Yeah.

1:25:32

Chris B: so yeah, I, I get a job at this cell I'm working there seven

1:25:37

months into fifth cell studio starts having some problems and it's looking

1:25:43

like the cell might not make it.

1:25:46

I'm starting to feel like I'm the harbinger.

1:25:48

of death for studios now. Cause I just left the studio that shut down and now I just joined another

1:25:55

studio and it's kind of a little Rocky.

1:25:58

luckily for me, I end up, one of the lead engineer there was talking

1:26:04

with some people and starting up a, another studio and my cubicle

1:26:10

mate was going to go work for them.

1:26:12

But he decided that he didn't want to leave or didn't want to like

1:26:17

work for them for whatever reason. But he was like, Hey, talk to Chris.

1:26:22

He can do what you're looking for. you still need somebody.

1:26:25

And he talked to me and was like, do you want to, you want to do this?

1:26:29

And I was like, sure, this sounds great.

1:26:31

Like, let's try this again. So we go. to startup a number three now, or I started up number two.

1:26:37

so we went there and we were doing mobile games again.

1:26:41

So, you know, had some experience there.

1:26:44

and that lasted for like two years.

1:26:47

And really like, honestly, the, the whole point of like this at that time, You

1:26:52

know, after tiny, giant finished, Danny was like, you'll find a job in Seattle.

1:26:56

He's like, I can't hire you right now. I don't know when I'm going to be able to hire you, but if you live in

1:27:00

Seattle, it's going to be a hell of a lot John: um,

1:27:03

Chris B: And so the, the idea was just to be up and around and like,

1:27:07

the vibe is much different in Seattle than it is in San Diego.

1:27:11

Cause like you throw a stone, you're going to hit a developer up here.

1:27:14

John: 100%, man. This is one of the biggest hubs, if

1:27:17

not the biggest hub. Chris B: it's easy to just meet people.

1:27:19

Like either just like randomly are just talking to people, you find out that

1:27:24

developers or, you know, like Danny circle, whatever, like you just start

1:27:28

hanging out with other developers. So it was always good to just be around.

1:27:31

And then Yeah. when NC two's kind of finishing up at that time, Danny was like, Hey,

1:27:37

to come interview a Polytech now? And I was like, yo,

1:27:40

John: Yeah. Chris B: on. John: You just had to bide your time.

1:27:42

damn CB. It's a wild ride brother.

1:27:45

we definitely got so many more stories to share with the masses.

1:27:48

And I don't want to rush the magic.

1:27:50

we'll call this chapter one of the CB stories and there

1:27:54

there'll be more to come for sure. The beauty of, of our friendship is exactly that, right?

1:27:59

Like I know you and, and you get to come on the show whenever the hell

1:28:03

it makes sense with your schedule. Chris B: So.

1:28:07

John: give me the signal and we'll hit the lightning round.

1:28:10

Chris B: lightning round. Let's do it. John: What is your favorite game of all time?

1:28:14

Chris B: Guilty gear, accent core. just because, played an Evo bunch with it, ended up 17th at one point.

1:28:21

John: 17th in the world that evil.

1:28:24

Hell yeah. Chris B: I mean, it was just a side tournament, so I don't know

1:28:27

if all the killers were there, but still, it doesn't matter.

1:28:29

It counts it's in the record books. John: Who's your character

1:28:32

Chris B: I played Potemkin, the burly man that had way too much damage and

1:28:36

way too much flexibility and combos, but I mean, everybody was broken in that game.

1:28:40

It was great. John: What's the last game you finished?

1:28:42

Chris B: that's store, and it's going to be game of the year, this year.

1:28:44

I'm calling it now John: It now game of the year

1:28:47

2021, Chris B: it. Yeah. 20, 21, death store is my game of the year.

1:28:51

It was magical from start to finish. I don't think there's one thing I could say that they did wrong in that game.

1:28:57

John: how would you pitch it to someone who's not familiar with it?

1:29:01

Chris B: a slightly more hardcore Zelda.

1:29:05

It has all the key beats, all the fun elements of his older game with like

1:29:11

a soul's like not as punishing, but definitely harder than Zelda's combat.

1:29:17

John: Okay. Chris B: you know, just like RPG, upgrade mechanics and stuff.

1:29:20

John: Working from home. never thought I'd do this shit.

1:29:23

I never thought it'd become a regular thing in the industry.

1:29:25

What's the favorite part about working from home CB?

1:29:29

Chris B: Oh man. No commute. I hate driving

1:29:31

John: bro. That's like 10% back to our day, man.

1:29:34

Chris B: it's great. Because time to go to work, I walked downstairs time to be done for the day.

1:29:39

I walk upstairs, need a break in the middle of the day.

1:29:42

I walk my ass upstairs and chill out on the deck and hit that reset.

1:29:47

And it's so easy. Also like the flexibility in scheduling become.

1:29:53

So much easier as well. Like Paulie Eric is really, really good about allowing employees to

1:29:59

like flex their time and stuff. So, you know, Rebecca has appointments and someone has to watch Amelia.

1:30:08

It's easy for me to be like, Hey, I need to be out for two hours.

1:30:10

And then once she goes down for bed, I just walked back downstairs, hop on

1:30:14

the computer, work for a couple hours and then go into the, like the den

1:30:17

and just watch TV before we go to bed. Right.

1:30:20

Like just the flexibility is so nice. John: hell yeah, man.

1:30:23

Speaking of flexibility and the magic of that 4:00 PM break makes

1:30:26

me wonder if I need to get on your calendar a little 15 minute play break.

1:30:32

Every 4:00 PM. Jump on some online street hoops with some madness.

1:30:35

Like this man is some CE I need to make that happen.

1:30:38

You've been warranted. Chris B: what's crazy with that is the director role.

1:30:41

I'm probably in a meeting then it's like, like it's so much harder to

1:30:45

like work these things in because you know, you put these, say flexibility.

1:30:49

It's like, we then have to like juggle meetings around

1:30:52

John: Yeah. Chris B: to set up appointments on these days.

1:30:55

It's like, I know I don't have meeting these days. This is when you should try to schedule all your appointments.

1:30:59

But if we can please shoot hoops online, we've gotta find. John: What kind of fund it.

1:31:02

that's a good call out man directors, you know, a big part of that role

1:31:06

and job is what do we call it?

1:31:08

Calendar Tetris. Right? Like where do you fit in these meetings?

1:31:13

Like the blocks of fallen, right? Where are you going to slot them

1:31:15

Chris B: at the Google, everyone on the Google Helter has different colors

1:31:18

John: Yup. Chris B: Keller Tetris. I like that.

1:31:21

John: It that's it, man. That's what you're making those big books for.

1:31:24

so imagine, you poly our contract or expires or whatever, and you're up for

1:31:29

free agency and you can go anywhere, play for any team on any project, work on any

1:31:35

IP franchise, whatever do you resign?

1:31:38

Where would you go if you could, what would you want to be

1:31:41

Chris B: I think, um, without shadow of doubt in my mind, I'm resigning, you

1:31:44

know? John: you're going for the three-peat you going for the back-to-back

1:31:48

Chris B: Yeah, technically we never, we lost out game of the year to Astro bought, so we're

1:31:54

still looking for the first ring. Uh,

1:31:56

we would call us. We were at, we were at the dance.

1:31:59

John: You made it to the finals. Chris B: no, man, I'm, I'm having so much fun.

1:32:03

Poly Ark, honestly has been the greatest place I've worked in my career.

1:32:08

I love my coworkers. I love flexibility that the studio gives me and like the trust that they've put in

1:32:15

me, there's no reason and I can't think of a reason why I'd want to go anywhere else.

1:32:20

John: Hell yeah. That's awesome to hear, bro. I'm glad you find your place.

1:32:23

Finally, after being the, angel of death, just closing now, startup after startup,

1:32:28

man, I'm surprised they gave you a shot. Geez.

1:32:31

We're in that Scarlet letter, hardcore, but I'm glad they took the chance, man.

1:32:34

It seems like it's paying off. if you weren't doing this, if you weren't a game developer,

1:32:40

what would you be doing, man? What else would you be doing to make money?

1:32:42

Chris B: Oh, so being a streamer sounds exhausting and I actually

1:32:47

don't think that'd be great. the other backup, growing up, was going to be a lawyer.

1:32:50

John: Oh yeah. I could see you arguing to death, Nice.

1:32:53

Yeah, dude. I could see you and a court and, and, stringing a jury along.

1:32:58

You fight for the good guy. Chris B: I think it's smarter that way.

1:33:02

Just like, as long as they don't end up like Harvey den, right?

1:33:04

Like you gotta be like, there's like a line, like I'm not trying

1:33:06

to take two high profile cases. John: That's a different look for you, man.

1:33:10

But I like it. It's an alternate dimension Barrasso, but it still be as intimidating as like

1:33:16

fighting game tournament, Bourassa. I'm sure

1:33:19

Chris B: ask the question. What if, John: what if yeah.

1:33:21

Yeah. You watching that by the way. Chris B: yeah. We're, we're a little behind trying to get caught up the night.

1:33:26

John: Something people either don't know about you or would be surprised to know

1:33:32

Chris B: I would say, and this is something I discovered about

1:33:35

myself, of my lovely wife.

1:33:37

I like musicals way more than I would have given myself credit for anyone That has

1:33:43

met me would believe, but I love musicals.

1:33:45

John: That was a great discovery. My friend, that was a funny, funny discovery.

1:33:50

When, when that happened, when you met your lovely wife you're

1:33:52

like, yo bro, I'm about the wicked.

1:33:54

I'm about, well, what are you, what are your, some of your favorites,

1:33:57

Chris B: I think Wicked's top. Hamilton's good.

1:34:01

John: word. Chris B: why are all the dice quicks dying was a really funny one.

1:34:06

John: those are some great recommendations to somebody it's like, all right.

1:34:08

I want to get it to musicals. I want to Chris B: yeah, if you want to get musicals, go.

1:34:11

watch wicked. John: That's the one I like like book of Mormon

1:34:14

Chris B: I still haven't seen it. We were supposed, we were supposed to go,

1:34:17

uh, and then COVID happened. John: What's the last book you read?

1:34:21

Chris B: man versus baby. you know, baby on the, way, I was trying to figure

1:34:25

figure this parenting thing out. Cause yo they don't come with instruction

1:34:29

manuals. And this was like, I was like a super highly rated book because It was nice

1:34:34

because it wasn't written in a way of like, Hey, this is what you do.

1:34:37

It was just this guy recanting his experience of his first

1:34:41

two years with his child. It was just very funny.

1:34:44

I really enjoyed it. but yeah, John: easy to read relatable to for

1:34:47

any person. Chris B: honestly don't read too much.

1:34:51

Like reading books for enjoyment is not necessarily what I do.

1:34:54

Like I will read strategy guides or like frame data from reading

1:34:58

something for games, but John: Scroll Reddit forever.

1:35:01

Yeah. Chris B: Yeah. John: Hell yeah. No, it's a great book.

1:35:03

Great recommendation. appreciate it.

1:35:06

Right. There's a few of us out there that are entering into that full Ray eventually.

1:35:09

So that's a good book to keep in mind. Name for me.

1:35:13

Three dinner guests you would love to have over and they could be dead or alive.

1:35:17

Chris B: interesting. So I think I gotta like spread the like areas around.

1:35:22

Right. So I'm going to bring, I think I'll bring someone like industry related.

1:35:27

I'm going to bring like an entertainment related and then I like sports,

1:35:31

so I'll bring like sports related. John: plan.

1:35:34

Chris B: So, I think Morimoto gets the to come industry-related right.

1:35:39

Like we just got. it's like the godfather, right?

1:35:42

John: And D he is Chris B: entertainment wise, you know, I'm a huge Tom cruise fan.

1:35:47

John: top gun. Huh? Chris B: yeah. so we'll get, Tom cruise and sports related.

1:35:53

Oh, we'll bring in Tom Brady. John: Brady.

1:35:56

Bam solid. Chris B: I got 20, I got 20 years of solid football, bragging rights right there.

1:36:02

And you know, at the page it's gonna be for the next 20 years.

1:36:05

It doesn't matter. the prime time I had it

1:36:07

John: Yeah, you did, man. Yeah, you did solid.

1:36:11

All right, brother. last one of this segment, then we'll wrap it up.

1:36:14

What's something that you would go back until young Barasa.

1:36:17

If you can go back in time and give yourself any words

1:36:20

of wisdom, what you know now, Chris B: slow down,

1:36:24

John: slow down. Chris B: I think.

1:36:26

And honestly, I probably received this advice from like high school teachers and

1:36:34

throughout my life, I've probably heard.

1:36:37

And just didn't listen. So I don't know if I'd even listen to future me, but maybe because it's

1:36:41

future may I'll listen, but Yeah,

1:36:44

I think slowed down, be intentful with what you're doing, understand

1:36:50

all the things that you're doing. Don't just do things to do them.

1:36:52

Right. Like be really like slow down and be in tenfold.

1:36:55

John: That resonates, right? Like, uh, when you're young, you're you're trying to like grow up.

1:36:59

Uh, can't wait to get my license. Can't wait to be an adult.

1:37:02

Can't wait to get my own place. Can't wait to get the hell out of here.

1:37:04

Things like this, right? Like so slowed down.

1:37:08

I guess the west coast is good for that. Chris B: Yup.

1:37:11

John: If you had a good time falling out of the play area, is there

1:37:14

anyone you would nominate to fall out of the play area behind you?

1:37:19

Chris B: for selfish reasons would love

1:37:22

John: the best Chris B: to have you, sit down and interview Mike

1:37:27

John: Mike Currington.

1:37:29

I definitely love that nomination because there's so much, I

1:37:32

don't know about that, man. And he's an old G he's been in the industry since what?

1:37:36

Like he worked at rare, right? He did like, did

1:37:38

he come racing killer instinct?

1:37:41

That guy's got racing games, fighting games, open world games.

1:37:45

Jeez. Chris B: It's Done at all. John: Done at All love that recommendation.

1:37:50

you go, is there any last words you have out there for the audience

1:37:55

or where can they reach you? Where can they connect with you?

1:37:58

Where can they see what you're working on? What's coming out next,

1:38:00

Chris B: if you want to reach me, listen to me, complain about guilty gear

1:38:04

balance or whatever shows I'm watching.

1:38:06

You can find me at at Barasa 86.

1:38:09

other than that, just keep playing games, fun.

1:38:12

You know, talking about the importance of networking, like keeping those

1:38:16

contacts, you know, remember and remembering who you work with, people

1:38:19

down the road, it's always good to be, to be friendly to everybody.

1:38:23

Right. John: don't burn your bridges. Chris B: make your work, speak for itself, but then also be personable.

1:38:28

Rule number one, Don't be a Dick. John: Don't be a Dick.

1:38:31

Yeah, my bed, I was being a Dick, bro.

1:38:35

That's it just be nice to people with, even at work, man, it tempers arise as

1:38:39

pat will be passionate about an idea or a feature and you get defensive on it,

1:38:44

Chris B: Yeah, Learning to respectfully disagree that one and like, to not take things

1:38:48

personally, that's tough, it's important.

1:38:51

Right. At the end of the day, everyone is on the same team.

1:38:54

Everyone's passionate about things

1:38:56

John: that's the thing, Chris B: it's okay to disagree.

1:38:59

John: the thing. That's the thing that always, you can always hold back on, right?

1:39:02

It's like, Hey, you all want the project to be the best that it could

1:39:05

be you're are on the same team. It is in everybody's interests that the game is the best that it can be.

1:39:11

so the fuck what? That, it's not your idea, right?

1:39:13

Like, yet deep and profound.

1:39:17

That's how I would sum it up. Hell yeah, brother.

1:39:21

Thank you so much CB. It was a blast having you glad to finally do this thing.

1:39:26

Bring you the hot Chris B: about it for awhile. John: for a damn wild man.

1:39:29

we barely scratched the surface of this massive iceberg underneath the water.

1:39:34

you know, that, that's how it goes, man. Chris B: Yeah.

1:39:36

Oh, this is, this has been fantastic.

1:39:38

You know, thank you? for having me on I'm an avid listener, so it's Cool.

1:39:42

Cool. To get to finally be on the show. John: There'll be more to come in the future.

1:39:46

Thank you, man. Could you tell it was having a bit too much fun kicking in with Chris.

1:39:54

These are the best these interviews where you just.

1:39:57

Forget about the fact that it's an interview and we're both

1:39:59

just having a conversation. I knew most.

1:40:02

Most of his details. There's a few details there before I met him at rockstar.

1:40:07

On his intern. Internship his time at full sail.

1:40:10

Getting that interview. And then even.

1:40:12

When he was doing up here in Seattle in between getting to Polycarp.

1:40:15

It's special to meet people who know exactly what they want to do from an

1:40:19

early age and are just able to kind of put the blinders on and will not.

1:40:23

Not be deterred by sheer force of will to bring their dream to light.

1:40:27

Talk about the power of community and networking.

1:40:30

He and his. His boy D putting the work in to make a community around midnight club to.

1:40:35

Actually attracted the developers.

1:40:38

Whom gave him. That key contact in Devin hammock that would eventually be responsible for

1:40:42

getting his resume in front of the hiring manager at rockstar San Diego, Sarah.

1:40:47

Shaffer at the time. I mean these days, there's this cords for damn near every interest.

1:40:53

That you can rest assured have. People that know people that can help put you on.

1:40:58

If you come to them with that positive energy, looking to help.

1:41:01

In addition to that, I. I thought a helpful nugget was the bit about taking breaks.

1:41:04

Stepping away from your desk, going out to clean head, getting some air reconnecting.

1:41:09

Stepping away and the power that it has to help you come back with some fresh

1:41:14

insight to solve a problem that may be.

1:41:17

Be kind of stressing you out. That and the way I miss taking them for 20 breaks, throwing down

1:41:22

one-on-one on street fighter, CE. We are street, oops.

1:41:24

Or. What have you, right. It could be ping pong or something like that.

1:41:28

Speaking of I'm ready for that street fight is six.

1:41:31

And seeing if that Laura's my old fight club, homie's back on.

1:41:34

On the sticks and online to throw down and establish that pecking order.

1:41:39

Once again. How many of y'all have played Moss one.

1:41:42

How many y'all picking up Moss too, or planning on it.

1:41:45

On episode 31 about a play area debuting on Monday.

1:41:49

Monday, April the 20th, fifth, we sit down with Ben written an AI and

1:41:53

encounter designer working at hanger 13.

1:41:57

He, and I crossed paths back at midway Austin.

1:42:00

Where we both worked on criminal before midway went under.

1:42:04

Since then he's gone on. On to do some amazing things around the industry working on damn near

1:42:09

every type of game to where he is today make sure to follow us so that

1:42:13

you don't miss out on that episode. Thank you for listening, Deb.

1:42:17

If you found this episode informative, I ask that you pay a link forward to

1:42:21

a developer to help grow our listener.

1:42:23

If you're a game developer with a story you think could help a fellow dev

1:42:27

out, please go to out of play area.com and click on the Calendly link at

1:42:32

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1:42:38

Out of play area, the game developers, podcasts releases, new episodes every

1:42:42

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1:42:47

Please make sure to follow us, to see what developer falls out of the play area.

1:42:50

Next time. I'm your host John Diaz until next time devs stay strong.

1:42:56

Stay true. Stay dangerous.

1:42:58

Mega ran. Bring them home.