0:00

John: Devs what's really, really good with you all out there.

0:04

To the attentive audience. I may have pulled the Diaz and am releasing this episode number 22,

0:10

1 week later than I previously was aiming for for the 22nd.

0:15

I apologize, sincerely. And appreciate you all for understanding and not being up in arms.

0:20

I've been busy working on some internal dev days, work and presentation.

0:25

Plus as of November the 15th, your boy has leveled up to a level 38 human being.

0:31

And, you know, I figured I'd just go ahead and catch up over

0:34

the national day of mourning. I've been busy with interviews.

0:38

The Latin X game festival brought me back for their third annual event.

0:41

Happened virtually over Twitch. Did a really awesome interview.

0:45

It was pretty candid. Shout out to Jason Vega for putting that together.

0:51

Before kicking off the episode, I guess I'll call out a few things.

0:55

Elaine Comez is a unicorn. She's a Puerto Rican, Dominican Latina game designer.

1:01

What? Yes. You heard it right.

1:03

Have you ever worked with one? Let me know.

1:06

That's a rare breed. I got to connect with her when we did the game design panel at last year's

1:11

the 20, 20 Latin X games festival.

1:14

And I'm really a fan of her activism in the industry.

1:17

She goes in and bears all talking about.

1:20

All the trials and tribulations, she went through surviving her childhood.

1:25

Getting her master's in game design. Breaking into the industry and finding her happy place slash probably even

1:32

forever place at brass line in attainment.

1:35

So we. Without further to let's start the show.

1:41

On episode 22 of the Out of Play Area Podcast, we feature

1:46

the amazing Elaine Gomez.

1:49

She is an award-winning game designer currently working at brass lion air

1:53

attainment with five years of experience in gameplay and systems design.

1:57

She is one of six co-founders of the Latin X in gaming and supports the

2:04

organization with game development related initiatives and resource.

2:07

Courses. Elena's passionate about mentorship and often lends her design knowledge and

2:12

resources to serve young game developers.

2:15

Across the globe. You may know her work from Elan Emedia on beyond the blue.

2:22

So. Please show a warm welcome for he lane Gomez.

2:30

Let's start the show. Catherine: Bienvenido Bienvenue Welcome to the out of play area podcast, a

2:38

show by video game devs for game devs, where the guests open up one-on-one

2:43

about their journey, their experiences, their views, and their ideas.

2:47

No ads, no bullshit. Join us as we venture far out of the play area with your host

2:53

seasoned game designer, John Diaz

2:57

Elaine: I feel you with a Puerto Rican beer has Melaya

3:00

and it doesn't taste the same. when it's important either.

3:02

I don't know what it is. John: save it for when I'm like in New York and they get

3:06

the good stuff or I'm in Dr.

3:09

Elaine: Hell. Yeah. When I went to the Dr. They had precedent at our like Villa or whatever, like the

3:14

fridge was stack, it was so good.

3:19

And anytime that we would drink some, they would just restocking.

3:22

So like, all right. Those free prissy, then they all day everyday.

3:26

John: ah, this is the best that like all included.

3:28

Elaine: Yes. John: of you never go thirsty. You never go hungry.

3:32

Elaine: it was such a fun experience. It was my first time doing an all-inclusive,

3:36

John: which part of the island? Elaine: so we landed in Santo Domingo, but our Villa all-inclusive resort

3:43

place was all the way in food. The Ghana John: Yes.

3:46

Elaine: we had to drive, like

3:48

John: four hours, Elaine: a long time.

3:51

my brothers and I were not happy because imagine going on an airplane, right.

3:55

You go in like five hours or whatever, And then you get off.

3:59

It's like, okay. Another five hours of transit.

4:01

It's like, dad, what did you do? We got confused with airports.

4:05

John: And it's not an easy drive. I'm sure there's some,

4:07

off-roading you gotta do. Elaine: Yes.

4:10

Oh, the guy was pretty wild. I've never seen somebody drive like that in my life.

4:15

, John: you're happy that. The plane lands, everybody claps.

4:17

Everybody's excited. You take the breath of air.

4:20

You're like, yes. All the humidity. Elaine: Yep.

4:22

John: then in the car Elaine: It was like, woo, woo.

4:26

And like, I was going speeding. Then the motorcycles that like don't follow any type of traffic

4:31

laws now was scary.

4:33

Like scary stuff happening.

4:36

And there's like, no, not even like traffic lights or anything.

4:38

Everybody's just going and stop in and go. And it was wild, but it was nice to see the countryside,

4:43

during that, like five hour drive. So you were able to see the mountains and it looked like rainforests

4:49

and farms and things like that. So that was really nice.

4:52

John: just a beautiful nature. Elaine: Yeah.

4:54

And then the rest of the time we were just driving around my

4:57

dad booked like a, tour bus. And then we went to like Santiago, Bonnie, like where my grandmother

5:03

grew up, which are like, I wouldn't say slums, but it was poor.

5:07

John: Yeah, villages Elaine: And then they took us like super deep into really poor

5:11

neighborhoods where people were like making homes out of, like, it

5:15

looked like mud and brick and stuff.

5:18

yes. And then we went into the board of it and that was

5:22

really John: if you think you seem poverty get to the board of Haiti and that

5:28

gives you a whole different perspective Elaine: That was really sad to see all that.

5:32

It's like, it breaks your heart because you're like, oh shit,

5:34

like I'm here for vacation. I have everything and here they are just like whatever they have just to

5:40

make like a few cents essentially. So heartbreaking, but I'm glad I saw it.

5:45

Cause it makes you humble and makes you see things a bit different, you know,

5:48

John: It makes you grateful for everything. We got everything, every little thing, you know?

5:53

Elaine: Yelp. John: yeah, it's crazy. Like we don't got to get into it, but the difference it makes of who

5:59

colonize you are settled, right? Like the difference of how France just kind of use the land and the people

6:05

versus Spain and how they kind of at least gave a little bit back to the

6:09

country and support it and helped it grow.

6:12

Elaine: the history impacts a lot of today.

6:14

Right? I had to go to Puerto Rico for a while.

6:17

I was there for about six weeks, seven weeks, to be with my mom

6:21

and my grandmother, who's growing through her Alzheimer's and all that.

6:24

my uncle has been doing a lot of, ancestry.com or

6:28

John: yeah. Elaine: deep. John: all that.

6:31

Elaine: super deep. And he has had the opportunity to like talk to my grandfather because

6:35

he's had a lot of one-on-one time John: Yeah.

6:37

Yeah. Taking advantage. Elaine: Like, I didn't know, like my grandfather's family comes from

6:42

like my, your Domo's, which are the people who like had plantations.

6:46

So like, I have no, this like battle in my mind was just like, I know that my dad's

6:51

side of the family came from like slavery.

6:53

Cause my dad's family's like black Dominican.

6:56

And then you have my mom's side of the family.

6:58

Who's like spend your didn't had plantations and own slaves.

7:03

John: Uh, Elaine: battle in my head.

7:05

And I was like, wow, like I have two sides of my DNA, which literally we're against

7:09

each other and like abuse the other.

7:12

And it's just like, I've been really thinking about that a lot,

7:15

but there's nothing I can do about it. Right. It's just the history of the family.

7:19

John: Just carrying on and passing down the knowledge, right.

7:23

Of like experiences and telling the stories that it's very

7:26

real in the Dominican Republic.

7:29

my mom is hardcore fair skin, light skin hides from the sun does not

7:34

let her skin touch the sun at all.

7:37

And, she's super old school mentality where it's like darker

7:41

skinned equals working the land.

7:43

Right. and, means or whatever.

7:46

Elaine: if you see my mom and my, my aunt, everybody's like super

7:49

white, like they're lighter than me. cause I got little son,

7:53

John: yeah, you, you come back from Puerto Rico for a good while.

7:56

Elaine: it's interesting to see like even in, none of my immediate

8:00

answer, my mom, but they're cousins.

8:02

They have like green eyes and Hazel eyes.

8:05

So that's a recessive gene, definitely in the family.

8:08

but then my dad's side is like, Theano and black, like mixed together.

8:12

So you could definitely see. like their whole like featured the features on their face is way different

8:17

than like, common Dominicans they use.

8:19

Although I have been light-skinned Dominicans, I have mid white Dominicans,

8:23

John: see. yeah, Elaine: in Puerto Rico.

8:26

The same. We have Chinese Puerto Rican stew. John: yeah, the islands is so close and yeah, you get everybody, I

8:31

don't know how they get there, but they,

8:34

Elaine: how they get there either, but

8:36

they do and they make it work and they make ends meet and Hey, they're happy.

8:40

John: I, always think that life is good. Right. But again, when you come from over here, have pretty good means,

8:46

money goes a long way and, having family over there helps for sure.

8:50

Right? Cause then you get put in touch with the locals and you're usually accepted, right?

8:55

Like once you're in there, you're just immersed in the culture and you want to

8:58

learn more and you want to contribute and

9:00

talk, the ish, eat the food, danced,

9:04

all that. words per minute speaking, up significantly.

9:10

If I've hung out in VR for a bit. Elaine: Different.

9:17

John: choose to you, Elaine. Thank you for taking the time.

9:20

So I loo, Elaine: that Lou. You're welcome.

9:22

Thanks for having me John: I get to, reminisce on first time I got to meet you

9:26

or at least do a joint event.

9:29

Thing was for Elaine: Latin John: X Latin X games festival at the end of last year.

9:35

If you sound it out and Juan.

9:37

So it sounds like I'll, hopefully we'll be seeing all of them sooner than later.

9:41

Elaine: Yeah, hold on. Just got a job with Microsoft.

9:44

John: I've been trying to poke him behind the scenes and be like, yo bro, when are we going to talk?

9:46

When are we going to catch up? And he's like, yo wait, let me get settled.

9:49

Let me figure it out over here. And then I'll come through.

9:52

That's Elaine: He's so sweet. John: Wonderful human being.

9:56

Absolutely. When we last spoke, you were at, which is funny because every time

10:03

heard of this place, I could have sworn it was your own company.

10:07

it's your name on it? It's your business.

10:09

You made that thing, Elaine: No, this, this happens to be the money starts with an E it's Eli and media,

10:15

but, they, I found out that they named the Elan medium because, the studio was

10:20

close to the line, in New York city.

10:22

just After that,

10:25

John: APA. So that would have been, like Manhattan, and then like up into Queens.

10:30

Elaine: you're asking the wrong girl John: Oh, well, so let's get into it.

10:36

Where's home for you. Elaine: home for me, man.

10:40

That's a complicated and loaded question actually,

10:42

John: Whereas like Elaine: physically John: and like stomping grounds and like hanging out,

10:48

games. Elaine: grounds growing up home is New Jersey.

10:53

But my heart's on in the island. Right. Cause that's like family,

10:56

John: yeah Elaine: like my heart is in Puerto Rico, my stomping grounds growing up is,

11:01

in Puerto Rico. But I feel like I would love to call California home, like in the future.

11:06

So like my heart's like super divided into these three locations

11:10

John: well, this is what you like studied got work.

11:13

Made games, Elaine: made friends.

11:17

I feel like I came into my own when I moved to California.

11:21

Cause like in New Jersey it was like, I was around my parents and

11:24

it was more like, you know, pleasing your parents, like doing things.

11:27

Right. So you don't get yelled at either. They mean just being a good kid or at least trying to be,

11:33

and then just doing what I gotta John: I call it a dodging.

11:36

The Elaine: do John: clutter. Yeah. this was where

11:40

Elaine: Yes John: boots yourself. Bilty lane.

11:43

Elaine: Yeah. I went on my self-reflection like identity.

11:46

Like who am I really? What do I believe in all that stuff?

11:51

went through all of that in California. So it's a special place for me.

11:54

John: Hell yeah. It's a beautiful place too. I love it.

11:57

When east coast has come out to the west coast, it's

11:59

usually a very different world. It's a different speed.

12:02

It's a different way of life. Elaine: it is a different way of life because everything in New

12:05

Jersey, New York is like on the run. Got to go, go, go.

12:08

It's like you go from here to here. There's no time in the, agenda for you to do anything else.

12:12

But do all these things over here. I feel like people's lifestyle is a bit more lax.

12:16

John: I imagine it's something to do with the sun and the heat and the ocean.

12:20

Elaine: Yeah. Being close by right to the water and whatnot

12:23

maybe. And also like, you don't get any season changes here.

12:26

Like pretty steady, but back home in New Jersey, as soon as that fall hits,

12:30

winter feels like gray and gloomy.

12:34

you're just sad and then pack on weight because you just eat because you're sad.

12:38

Cause it's ugly outside. Like that's just how it is.

12:42

Right. And you go through that hibernation period

12:44

from like, essentially once Thanksgiving is over, that's pretty much it it's

12:48

just green, gloomy and cold all the way into like sometimes April

12:53

and even may still a little cold.

12:56

So for half of the year is like, that.

12:59

John: yeah, it becomes like playing movie, watching TV show catching up on

13:04

time then spring, summer rolls around then you're like, all right, let's go.

13:08

Let's do stuff. I don't want to be on TV. Anything, anything like this?

13:12

So Elaine talked to me about breaking into the industry.

13:16

What was that? Like, what did it take for you to.

13:19

I get in and achieve your dreams. Elaine: it doesn't matter whether it's in games or not like whatever you want to do.

13:24

persistence is key. And if you're really passionate about something and you have your heart

13:30

set in it, you have to keep going.

13:32

And you have to figure out how to do it.

13:35

Like I've had to do that with my own life.

13:38

when I decided to go for a master's in game design and my parents

13:41

were like, we can't afford it. So you need to figure out how you're going to pay for it, literally.

13:46

but I was determined and I was persistent.

13:48

I was like, I'm not going to let that be an obstacle for me.

13:51

And I think that's something as, the Latin X community, you know, like coming

13:55

from hardworking families who like really gave it their all so that we could have

14:01

a future and we can have what we have. I feel like translates so hard into my passion and drive for everything.

14:07

Right? So like in the same way that you see people success,

14:12

John: Hmm. Elaine: get there just by coasting through Some people have just coasted

14:16

through, they have connections, they have

14:19

the privilege. John: Are Elaine: us,

14:22

John: Peters? Elaine: Oh, they're good. Bush bullshitters.

14:24

But for us, as people of color, you know, people who were not born

14:28

in the United States, people who don't have money, could literally

14:31

build yourself from the ground up. are your biggest true leader and you are the reason why you want to

14:37

get to wherever you want to get to. persistence is key.

14:40

If there is A will, there is a way I believe in that 100% I did it.

14:45

parents didn't have the money to put me through school. What did I do?

14:48

tried to apply to as many scholarships and grants and financial aid as I could.

14:52

John: Yeah, Elaine: I was like, I'm not going to let money, stop me from chasing after a

14:56

master's degree because that's, money.

14:59

pay it eventually. John: It's an investment.

15:01

Elaine: Right? Exactly. It's an investment in me and my future.

15:04

And that's how I did it. do I have student loans?

15:07

Yeah. Up the ass. I got a lot of student loans, I can tell you that if it wasn't for that degree in

15:13

the networking and the connections that I made, wouldn't be where I am right now.

15:17

John: give it 10 years. good.

15:20

Elaine: And it's just a hump. It's just an obstacle that I had to get through in order

15:24

to come to the other side. whether it's like a graphic designer or putting up your own designs, your own

15:28

work store, it being a content creator and putting up your Twitch channel with

15:32

like whatever thousands of followers, if you want to be a game designer, a game

15:36

developer, launch a game, it published by a big company, whatever it may be,

15:40

whatever your dream is, persistent.

15:43

Don't quit. I needed to work really hard.

15:45

I needed to sacrifice a lot to be where I am today I'm not here because

15:50

am a chosen one or anything like that.

15:53

I'm here because I work my ass off I did sacrifice a lot, any y'all

15:58

don't, you know, the tears that I shed the times where I felt lonely and isolated, because studying do my thing,

16:05

and everybody else was having fun, relationships like bringing my parents

16:09

were like, you need to get married. to have a kid,

16:11

John: Any grandkids? Elaine: And I was just like, no my focus is on my career, And now they

16:16

look at me and they're like, oh, Elaine and Lena, she has a nice apartment.

16:19

She has a good. salary. She has a nice car and all this stuff.

16:21

I was just like, I wouldn't be able to have Any of this.

16:23

If I, had a kid in a John: Yeah.

16:26

Elaine: years old, you know what I mean?

16:28

But I'm happy where I am now. And you know, when I'm made, I made it, but I made myself get there.

16:33

John: yeah. Elaine: myself. I challenged myself.

16:36

John: will say that I was trying to hustle to break in, right.

16:40

I didn't see anybody around me talking about making games.

16:44

Everybody that was making games was Japanese or, blonde hair, blue eyes,

16:49

white American, or something like that. Right. really wasn't, something that I saw myself represented in, but I went for it.

16:56

Right. head down, I wanted to do this thing, went to school and made the damn thing happen.

17:02

And I'm super happy. You're here specifically them Latin X, and gaming for one, To have this space

17:10

for all of us, with similar backgrounds of stories, to, share and help put each other

17:14

on encourage one another and network.

17:18

Right. You guys everywhere, right? There's a Twitch.

17:20

There's clubhouse. There's Twitter spaces.

17:23

There's the discord. There's LinkedIn

17:26

events, Have you ever been asked for design portfolio?

17:30

my first time was for this job at EA was like, Hey, can

17:33

we see a design before that? I was like, I don't got one of those.

17:35

I've been doing this shit for man long. I don't got no design

17:38

Elaine: Really, I always get asked to our portfolio

17:42

yeah. Portfolio and in my job hunt, it varied.

17:46

Some studios asked for even a design test,

17:49

some folks didn't John: common design tests or, you know, string for the resume

17:54

or you got referred by somebody. what do you put in your design portfolio?

17:58

Out of curiosity? Elaine: So, because I went to graduate school and had some games, my

18:04

portfolio now is a combination of games that I have worked on and published

18:09

as well as games that I'm working on personally,

18:12

John: what is it? Is it like videos? Is it docs?

18:15

Elaine: So I'm actually thinking about putting ducks.

18:17

Cause I think that would be helpful. but so far what I have are like gifts,

18:22

like showing like movement. I do have some videos and I have art

18:27

for some of my games as well. And then for the games that have released, I just put the link up for if it's on HBO

18:34

or if it has like a steam page.

18:37

just put the. John: that makes me feel better.

18:39

Right. Cause it's definitely like, here's the games I worked on and then he has YouTube

18:43

videos of like the content or whatever.

18:46

Elaine: Yeah, I think that's fair. As long as you are communicating and showcasing, what you did,

18:51

like even game jam games. I love to do game jams and any game that I finished, that it has like beginning,

18:58

middle end, and it's nice and polished. I John: So I take it.

19:03

There's a few that didn't make it Elaine: Nope. they're prototypes,

19:10

John: That's awesome. Elaine: telling people too, that in your portfolio, it's totally cool to also

19:15

have a section called prototypes and just

19:18

put stuff that you worked on on there. Cause John: Hell

19:20

yeah. Elaine: people to see. oh, you actually need something small.

19:25

And it works. John: That's a good call out, right?

19:27

Like, especially for professionals that have been doing this for awhile, right.

19:31

Like depending who you talk to. Right. When I talked to people outside of the game industry, they

19:35

will be the first to point out. Like that looks ugly.

19:37

That looks whack. You know, it doesn't look like, call of duty or last of us or whatever.

19:41

I was like, all right. Non-professional

19:43

Elaine: who do you think I am? John: Right.

19:47

But when Elaine: Yeah. John: they can see the, presentation to see, oh, I see the mechanics here.

19:54

I see the systems at work. did you stand these up?

19:57

What did you learn? What interested you?

20:00

Right. It's all about peaking or scratching at interests you like?

20:05

Oh, why did you build this fighting mechanism?

20:08

Oh, tell me more about your passions in combat design.

20:12

Right. And be like, oh, okay, cool. actually need somebody like you.

20:16

Right? Like, more. are you today?

20:19

You've recently made a jump I'm super interested to see what you're doing today.

20:24

What's your role? What's the job like how you liking it?

20:27

Elaine: So I did get a new job, which was really exciting.

20:30

Uh, I had been looking for a job for a year and a half,

20:34

John: That's Elaine: a long time.

20:36

Yeah. John: You didn't tell nobody. Elaine: I didn't tell anybody.

20:40

and I was kind of just at first it was just kind of like, okay, let me just test

20:43

the waters to see if I can find something.

20:45

I wasn't really like super into it.

20:47

I wasn't like, Oh, I need a new job. I need to get outta here.

20:50

But things changed at the studio that I was at.

20:54

And I started to notice things that I just was not comfortable with.

20:57

things that were affecting my mental health and like my personal life.

21:01

And that's when I was like, you know what? I really do need to take this seriously.

21:05

to find a new place to be. at that point it was like a year looking and not to say that like, studios didn't

21:10

want me because I went super far in the interview process in several studios that

21:14

I really, really, liked, but it just like, I guess the timing just wasn't right.

21:17

You know, and the door closed and had to move on, but I'm so glad that that

21:22

happened because the company that I'm at now, breast line entertainment.

21:26

so new company, they literally just started hiring and like opening up

21:31

everything like in December of last year.

21:34

So they've only been hiring in the past what, like maybe five months or so.

21:39

And if I would have gotten a new job prior to that, I would have

21:42

never been able to come to that studio because it just didn't exist.

21:47

So I feel like the timing was just so right for me to be able to apply the

21:52

studio that had literally had just opened. They had just started their hiring process.

21:57

I was within the first like 20 people that they hired at the studio.

22:02

pretty special. And, it's special to me because out of all the companies that

22:07

have been interviewing for. were the ones who were the most diverse.

22:12

And when I say diverse, I mean, it the co-founder and like C level

22:17

of the company people of color.

22:19

And the CEO is a woman that to me is like, yes, like you, you don't see that often.

22:24

Right? You don't see black, south Asian, brown or even women NC level, a lot

22:31

in, companies. John: Very true. Elaine: I feel super lucky that I'm able to be at a company that is like that.

22:36

And because the founding members, like the executive team diverse.

22:40

Therefore the whole team is diverse from all departments.

22:44

I would say like white folks are the minority, which is like really uncommon.

22:49

Right. And it feels really good.

22:52

It feels really good to be a part of that because like, oh, y'all see me.

22:56

Y'all get me. You know what I mean?

22:58

It's, it's a different type of vibe when you can talk to folks about like, culture

23:03

about like what's going on in the world. And people get you in the, they understand you, they don't dismiss you, you know?

23:08

Or they don't want to sweep things under the rug because it's controversial.

23:11

Like like they you being bold and like standing up for the

23:15

things that you believe in on social media or things like that.

23:18

So it's important to me as special to me. And I'm really, really lucky that I was able to, to land

23:23

a spot, as a game designer, John: timing is everything it feels like it had to pan out this way, like

23:30

was written well in advance for you.

23:32

it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about to me

23:34

feels like New York, right? It feels like New York city, big ass melting pot.

23:39

you get everything shapes, sizes, colors, creeds,

23:42

Elaine: Hmm. John: to kind of be yourself, be real,

23:46

what's on your mind and people don't get easily offended.

23:50

Right. Elaine: Ms. A lot more tougher skin back home in the east coast, for sure.

23:55

But funny you say that because the studio is based off in New York.

24:00

So will be relocating there in a couple of months and my lease is up here.

24:04

So I'm really excited. John: Oh, my goodness.

24:06

You're leaving the west coast where you Elaine: I'm leaving the west coast.

24:10

John: became, Elaine, the adult, the the game developer

24:14

going back, Elaine: Yeah, I'm going back, but I'm so excited because, um, uh, of course I have

24:19

friends back in New York and New Jersey. My family's there.

24:23

It's a big, closer to Puerto Rico so I can go fly out a more, probably more often.

24:28

John: same time zone. Elaine: Yep. And just like the nightlife and the food and everything in New York city,

24:33

it's just like nothing compares like LA got nothing on New York city pizza

24:38

on any type of food on the bars.

24:41

Is this, everything is so much better in my opinion, in New York city.

24:45

So excited to just go back and enjoy all of that.

24:49

John: You're not going to get any arguments for me.

24:51

Like New York, New York can definitely be expensive for a lot of things,

24:55

Elaine: Yeah John: I feel like for living, living life, hanging out, drinking, eating,

25:01

partying, just the parks, the people, the trains, whatever, whatever to

25:06

cabs taxis, that's not as expensive as you would think, compared to

25:10

other places in the country, like

25:12

Elaine: For sure. John: on the west coast. For sure. Elaine: Yeah.

25:15

cost of living here is insane. Like what I pay for groceries here is wild.

25:20

John: and Kelly gets like the good ass fruits and vegetables,

25:24

Elaine: real, like, cause there's agriculture here and along the west coast.

25:27

So you would think that produce and stuff is cheaper.

25:30

Um, but I don't know of it's like how much I'm buying or what not.

25:34

my grocery receipts are always super high, but I'm comparing it to New Jersey as well

25:38

because new year's is the garden state. So we do have quite a bit of producer and in Phoenix where I lived for a few years

25:45

when I was working at Elan media, the cost of living is also much lower there.

25:48

So anything from going to a restaurant to like grocery shopping,

25:52

anything was a lot cheaper as well. So, John: yeah.

25:55

Elaine: compare and contrast. John: of living is always a big consideration when you're trying

26:00

to, make decisions between offers and places to work and things like this.

26:04

it's really cool with the pandemic that work is a thing

26:08

Elaine: Yup. John: would have told you, was no way that games companies were

26:12

going to let people work from home. and how

26:14

Elaine: And now it's like, everybody's like writing on it,

26:17

and like nothing. It's like everybody wants a hybrid situation after the pandemic,

26:21

which I think it's great. Cause I like my own space.

26:24

I like being at home and I liked the flexibility, but at the same time I

26:28

do miss talking to people and having meetings face to face and getting

26:31

that like teamwork and comradery that comes out of just being around people.

26:37

and that's really helpful for game design. Right? So like right now, like game designing during zoom meetings, like that's tough.

26:45

It's not easy. It's not easy

26:47

John: It takes much more effort, more intentional, meetings a lot more.

26:53

One-on-ones you know, you can't just kind of read the body language and

26:57

like watch people on the screen. You got to sit there and talk, okay, what happened there?

27:01

What are we thinking? it's a whole different beast.

27:03

Elaine: Yeah. And I actually got an opportunity well, I got two offers during my job hunt

27:09

one of them, was from EA. So it was just like,

27:12

John: ah, my goodness.

27:15

Elaine: Yes. I John: So close. Elaine: about it.

27:18

Like I spent a whole week, weighing the pros and cons writing lists.

27:23

I talked to my mom and my dad, I talked to my uncle, I talked to my best friend.

27:27

I talked to my partner. I talked to as many people as

27:30

John: Yeah Elaine: Like what do you think would be the best decision?

27:33

Like if, if it were up to you, what will you do?

27:36

And I would ask, but of course I had my and cons list.

27:39

But at the end of the day, when it came to having an opportunity

27:43

to be part of diverse team, they were genuinely interested in me and

27:49

helping me get mid-level to senior.

27:52

John: Hm. Hm. Elaine: Professional goal right

27:54

John: Hell yeah. Elaine: move up. Right.

27:57

And, right off the get go, I was told, Hey, like are like at the end

28:02

cusp of made you are about to level up and like, all you need is just a

28:07

little bit more time, a little bit more mentorship and you can get there.

28:09

And, my manager now at Breslin, he's like, I know that we can get you there in like a

28:14

year or two, but if you do really, really good work, who knows, it could be quicker.

28:18

So to me, that's what really, gave me the confidence

28:22

of knowing that Breslin was the company that I had to pick, because

28:26

that was so important to me. And just didn't offer that to me.

28:30

You know, like the benefits were great.

28:32

The salary was great. actually got lucky cause I was able to counter, brass line with EA salary.

28:39

and I was like, Hey, can you meet me in the middle here?

28:42

John: Uh Elaine: Breslin ended up offering me a bit more than he did,

28:46

John: Came over the top. That's how much they wanted Elaine: yeah.

28:48

That's how much he wanted me. So that made me Feel special.

28:51

John: Yeah. Feel Elaine: Right. Yeah, exactly.

28:54

John: which EA team, what location would it have been?

28:58

Elaine: I would have gone to the new full circle skate team

29:02

out in Vancouver. Yeah. But, they would have allowed me to work remotely from LA.

29:07

John: So that you were going to be making LA money. Woo as I understand it, LA pay is significantly higher than

29:15

a lot of the other locations Elaine: because cost of living is so

29:18

John: it's expensive and those taxes no joke.

29:22

And the property ridiculous.

29:24

Elaine: and that's why you see the big differences in the salary.

29:27

It's literally because you wouldn't be able to survive.

29:30

John: Yeah. I got a lot of people that were like, Hey, John, you want to make a move to LA.

29:35

We'll make it worth your while. and it doesn't work out.

29:38

Like you can offer me a whole bunch of money.

29:40

And it just doesn't equal out for the quality of life that you can have.

29:45

And a lot of other places like Seattle not having a state tax,

29:48

a lot of places in Canada, right. your dollar goes a long way.

29:52

see how you could have done it better is to be able to take the two offers, let

29:57

the teams know what they're dealing with. Be, be transparent, be honest, be upfront like, Hey,

30:01

Elaine: Hm John: I want. This is what I'm looking for. This is what I'm weighing between let them make the call and show you their hand.

30:08

Ooh, that was wonderful. Elaine: Hell yeah. That's exactly what he did.

30:11

And I had to give a lot of credit where credit's due to Jean Leggett.

30:16

Jean was the one who not only helped me with a portfolio

30:19

John: Yeah. Elaine: but she really coached me when it came to interview time, like me links

30:24

and resources to, negotiate salary.

30:28

and just to build my confidence. She's like you are a bad ass bitch and you need people to see that.

30:33

Cause you're like hiding that from people.

30:36

So I was like, you know what fine, I'm going to do that.

30:39

I'm going to ride that wave, you know, because I have accomplished a lot, though

30:42

I'm technically a baby in the industry. I've only been around for like five years as a game designer or so.

30:47

John: you're over the hump, right? Five years is like the drop-off point.

30:51

Elaine: So she's like, you are bad-ass, you work really hard and you go out

30:55

of your way to grow and be better at what you do so that people see that.

30:59

So, and that's exactly what I did. last year, in the beginning of the pandemic, I was taking courses

31:05

like online and getting certified on like programming and like user

31:09

experience and all this stuff. And the last thing that I did was get certified by Abel gamers, for

31:14

accessible. John: know that Elaine: And to be honest with you, that changed the course of my job hunt, because

31:22

everybody was interested in the fact that I got certified in accessibility

31:26

and that I cared about accessibility. and both EA and brass line told me that that's what set me apart from the

31:33

other candidates, nobody had spoken about accessibility aside from me, and

31:38

nobody was as passionate about it as me.

31:41

And that was something that they both really, really valued, and they didn't

31:44

have anybody on their teams who was trying to champion that in any way.

31:47

I feel like that was what really sold me to both EA and brass line

31:51

I feel like that's what really pushed them to extend an offer.

31:54

John: Basically at the end of the day, it's up to you to sell yourself

31:57

it's so great when things come up that you're naturally passionate about.

32:01

Right. Cause then that kind of overwhelms any group of people who are trying to

32:06

get to know you and see if you can be a fit when your passions come out, it

32:10

becomes overwhelming and contagious. Right? So the people that interview generally leave positively in any kind of go

32:15

back, excited to be like, well, you know, this person, we got to bring

32:18

her for the next round or to talk to, the rest of the team to see you know,

32:22

they feel the same way kind of thing. Elaine: it was wild and EA because of the circle team is so small, I

32:28

believe, the creative director himself, apparently like after I got cleared,

32:33

quote unquote HR, like the first

32:37

call. John: like the phone screen. Elaine: Apparently she liked me so much that she went to the director

32:42

and he was like, okay, I want her to get interviewed for this specific and

32:45

this specific thing, which weren't even things that I applied for.

32:48

It was just like, he. Really I come into the HR recruiter.

32:52

Like she sold me really well and he's like, all right, let's

32:55

try her out for this and this. and they loved me, but

32:57

I think that my personality helps a lot because I'm so bubbly.

33:00

And, I am very passionate about what I do and I'm always have a smile

33:03

on my face, you know what I mean?

33:06

I don't know. It's, it's like, , just kinda sticks.

33:10

Like people remember that when they're in the call with you when they talk to you.

33:13

so I think the whole package of who I was as a person and what I

33:16

was interested in and all of that, they just really vibed with it.

33:20

and I don't know a special to me, right. Because told early in my career, like when I was in school that, could not show my

33:28

emotions, know, that I had to be careful like that Latina, fire that you have,

33:32

you got to put that down because that makes people uncomfortable or that makes

33:36

people think that you're not stable enough

33:40

to like have conversations and things like that.

33:42

So I always saw my personality almost as like a hindrance to me.

33:47

Finding jobs and stuff, including like, even my, my resume, in the beginning

33:52

I had like pink and all this stuff. Like I just wanted to be me,

33:55

John: Oh, that's awesome. Elaine: but I feel like that really hurt me in some ways,

33:59

cause I never got callbacks. Yeah.

34:01

And as soon as I started changing my stuff to be modern, but have,

34:05

colors that were bold, not so? much girly.

34:08

That's when things started to change. John: That's a good call out, right?

34:12

Cause I would say specifically for game designers, resumes

34:15

that stand out, catch my eye.

34:18

Right. And those are the ones that I read more, spend, more time kind of going through

34:21

Elaine: yeah John: know, word template style, but you know, to each their own, if you perceive

34:26

it as being very girly, you know, the little bit that I've learned and touched

34:30

on and I can always learn more is there's definitely these unconscious biases and

34:34

people tend to have image in their head of the ideal candidate for the role, the type

34:40

they're looking for. Right. and so yeah, the design of a resume can definitely, conflict with the image you

34:46

have in your head in whatever, crazy way.

34:48

Right. As, as stupid as it is. so that's interesting.

34:51

Cause know, experience saying that yo, I had it this way and I

34:55

changed it up and it got me results

34:57

for Elaine: 100%. just feel like there are moments to like, be like super girly and then

35:03

there are moments to just like, there'll be laid back, But like, you won't

35:06

catch me even when I was in the studio before, COVID you catch me like wearing

35:10

nice clothes, you know, like I wasn't trying to like come in and sweats or

35:16

hair not brushed and things like that. Like I always try to look fly as much as I could.

35:21

John: Yeah. Elaine: not for anybody else, but it was for me just

35:24

John: You feel good Elaine: I value that, You

35:26

John: Yeah. Elaine: like dressing, nice looking, nice smelling.

35:28

Good. Right. There's that stigma in the industry or people just don't smell good?

35:33

John: We don't have the good hygiene. Yeah, man. Elaine: that.

35:36

John: up. bring your best self to kind of raise your team up.

35:39

I'm all about that man. Like do what makes you feel good and comfortable?

35:43

And at the same time, you know, you can definitely say that it's like, oh, it's

35:46

not about how you look it's about how good you are at your job or whatever.

35:49

But there is a little bit of, if I see a person that.

35:53

I respect their fashion sense, look or whatever.

35:58

I generally gravitate towards collaborating with that person or

36:02

wanting to work with that person as opposed to, to not right.

36:06

Like, again, I'm an animal and my, my lizard brain, right.

36:10

These are just the things that I grew up with.

36:12

my family really kind of put a lot of value towards looking good

36:18

smelling, good dressing, good. know, speaking well, things like this.

36:22

And Elaine: right. John: sticks with you, for better or for worse.

36:27

Elaine: Yep. And my family was the exact same way just like something that I

36:31

rallied because I saw it in my home. Like saw my mom like that.

36:35

I even saw my dad. my dad is like classy.

36:39

you would see them. Like my dad will observe what my mom wears and he will coordinate his

36:45

outfit with hers without telling her

36:47

it's so cute. It's so cute.

36:50

But it's like one of those things where like he wants to look good for her

36:54

and vice versa and it's just so sweet.

36:58

I grew up in That So therefore, like I saw that and like, I just

37:02

that way and exact same thing. John: I haven't shared it on here yet, but I'll share that my first interviews,

37:08

you know, way, 2006, 2007 around there,

37:12

Elaine: I was still in the high school. John: it's all good.

37:19

It's all good. That, you know, being a senior, you know, comes with a little bit

37:22

of age and experience and wisdom. I haven't seen some things all good.

37:26

I totally had slacks, just shoes, a button shirt, and a tie.

37:30

And this day, the whole team that I work with at midway makes fun of me.

37:35

And it was like, yo, John, you stood out like a sore thumb.

37:38

We definitely wasn't even going to give you a chance to dress like that.

37:41

Like this Elaine: too John: game industry.

37:44

they thought I was much older than what I was actually. Right.

37:46

So mind you I'm like early twenties, no experience trying to get a job

37:50

with these awesome game developers.

37:52

And were like, yeah, we told you we're like 30 something the way you address,

37:55

Elaine: Oh, Mike. John: damn.

37:58

I don't know if it's the case these days, but there's a thing, depending

38:02

on who you talk to, where it's like dress accordingly to the job role.

38:06

Elaine: That's true. I actually, in all the interviews that I had prior to COVID and even

38:11

during COVID, cause I was on zoom calls and stuff, think I ever dressed

38:15

up like that ever like always had jeans and like a nice shirt, you know?

38:20

John: is the industry uniform. Yeah.

38:23

you could still be about it. Elaine: Yes.

38:26

Yup. John: a line. You're a game designer, AB Breslin.

38:30

what are you in charge of? What are you responsible for?

38:33

Is it a specific area of the game design or is it like the whole game design?

38:37

Elaine: let me see if I can walk through, safe spaces with this NDA.

38:42

So for sure, I can say that I'm doing Gameplay.

38:45

design. John: Gameplay. Oh yeah.

38:48

Elaine: of things that I'm doing that are much player focused.

38:50

what is the player going to do in this area?

38:52

What are they going to see? What can they interact with?

38:55

what can't they do? So I'm trying to answer a lot of those questions were specific areas in the game.

39:01

and it's interesting because in the game that we're working

39:04

on right now, it's an MMO RPG.

39:07

John: Oh Elaine: really big.

39:10

game yet. Very, very big. and working with a team that is full of veterans like crystal dynamics, EA

39:18

BioWare, Ubisoft, like you name it.

39:21

And like we have industry veterans who have like 10, 15

39:25

years on me and they are smart.

39:28

They so much.

39:30

And I'm just trying to. As much of a sponges, I can just learning from them, just hearing them

39:36

speak and analyze things and meetings and stuff has been really helpful for

39:40

me because I come from indie world.

39:44

I've worked on indie games for my entire career so far, and

39:47

projects are such a smaller scale.

39:50

And when I was at the type of gameplay design that I was doing was theory.

39:56

I don't want to say simple because every game can be very

39:59

complicated, no matter how, how simple it may look, but definitely it didn't have as many moving

40:04

parts as what I'm working on now.

40:07

So, I feel like it grabs all types of creative spaces in my brain where

40:12

I do need to be very methodological, and like, think of things, very

40:17

carefully with understanding what the boundaries are, what, the potential

40:22

like case scenarios may be or things like that, like at a much more elevated

40:27

level than what I used to write.

40:30

let's talk about like user experience, even accessibility,

40:32

which is something that I'm very fortunate to be able to start talking

40:36

about with my team, the get go,

40:39

John: kind of expert. Elaine: phase. Yeah. which is really, really great because it means that whatever features we decided to

40:45

add feel organic because we thought about them in tandem the rest of the gameplay

40:51

design waiting, add it an afterthought

40:55

understanding what arise from that what types of issues are

41:02

gonna come about what type of life. constraints, whether it be technical constraints or just production

41:08

constraints, of those things.

41:10

Like I have to think about all of that holistically I'm presenting an idea I

41:15

have never had to do that It's a lot of work and I feel like it's a lot of

41:19

responsibility, I want to make sure that my team knows that invested in this

41:24

and I want to make the best decision. I don't care if it's my design the creative director design, the artists

41:31

design, whoever I don't care as long as it works for what we're trying to do.

41:37

it has definitely been challenging. The gameplay design of it all, literally coming up with ideas from the ground up

41:44

we're building something from nothing. There's no franchise, it's literally an original project and the

41:52

creative director has the direction. Right.

41:54

And they know perhaps what are some things that they're really

41:58

interested and passionate about, but I need to come up with the Phil.

42:02

Like they gave me the start and the end what's everything in between.

42:07

I need to fill all of that. And that can be very overwhelming and challenging.

42:10

John: it's super interesting to hear you talk about going from a smaller team,

42:15

smaller scale type of project, to what I would say, the extreme opposite and deep,

42:22

deep, ocean waters of MMO RPGs, right?

42:25

Like even, people who've worked on AAA open-world games, MMOs are,

42:30

massive in scale and scope, right.

42:32

In the fact that they're alive game has no insight.

42:36

Right. And then you're trying to to the biggest market, especially the market, right?

42:40

The MMO market there's like three or four key players that

42:43

you want to take slice of. that's a huge challenge you guys have ahead of you.

42:48

And, I think you're going to learn so much, Elaine is going to

42:51

Elaine: Yes. John: who you become in a year from now surrounded by all those veterans,

42:56

but also kind of you the space and you on for your expertise and your

43:03

vision, to bring to that to the table. Right.

43:05

I think that's amazing. That's an amazing, formula for success you have on that team.

43:10

Elaine: Yes. Thank you. And actually everybody's invested like, not only my manager, that he told

43:15

me, like, he's like, I want to have one-on-one meetings with you biweekly.

43:19

let's get you where you want to be and let's shape you.

43:21

Let's figure out what's working. What's not working what you need, what are your strengths?

43:25

What are your weaknesses? he saw that I also had a passion for like other forms of design.

43:30

And there are other designers who have a little bit of

43:33

expertise in other design areas.

43:35

earlier this week, he was like, Hey lane, I know that you're interested in expanding

43:39

your design perspective and sensibilities.

43:42

And there's this other designer on the team who wants to mentor.

43:45

So you guys go together, like figure out a, like a meeting time so that you all

43:50

can learn from each other feels like dope.

43:52

So I now have like two mentors, essentially my manager and

43:55

another designer who's like to just taking his time to like,

43:58

just talk about stuff with me,

44:00

is really, really nice. John: your manager is actually following through on what he told you, right.

44:04

That he's very interested in grooming you and helping you grow

44:07

and help you get to the next level. And he's showing you that by pairing you with the people that are doing

44:13

the things you show an interest in. Elaine: Yeah, John: and I mean, that's, that's just business sense, them being right,

44:17

like the better you make your team.

44:19

The better your product will be at the end of the day, for sure.

44:22

By like fostering your talent. I love what you said, because it's something that took me.

44:28

longer to learn the time that it took you to learn it.

44:31

it's that, it's not about idea or my idea, being the idea.

44:37

It's about the best idea to make the best game that delivers on the vision

44:42

and the goal we're trying to hit. Right. I think that's so, insightful and ahead of the game, a perspective

44:46

to have, and to share with every developer out there, right?

44:51

Like the beauty of what we do is that we bring in a lot of people around the

44:55

table and games are really recipe due to a lot of chefs, there's definitely

45:01

people that are so insistent on this is my thing, and this is the way it's gotta be.

45:07

And why don't you like my thing?

45:09

And it, and it's never meant to be personal.

45:11

Right? it's Elaine: right. Okay. John: the best end user experience.

45:16

Elaine: A hundred percent. Something that I have learned that I bring with me from my personal life.

45:20

Is that. it matter where I am, whether, cause I, I used to work retail when I

45:25

was younger, or working in like an office, like a dental office, being,

45:30

like a teaching assistant in college. And even now in my team at a game studio, The skill sets that have transferred

45:38

has always been the people skills. John: soft

45:41

Elaine: it's always about, can I read somebody I can tell by

45:45

somebody's space and the way that they're talking, if they're upset,

45:48

And it happened to me earlier this week with, one of our producers.

45:52

she got a little bit frustrated and one of our calls and afterwards

45:56

I just messaged her on slack. And I was like, Hey, I noticed that you got a little

45:58

frustrated, like here for you. Like, if you want to talk like, and I wanted to check in on you, you know, and

46:04

I'm just a designer, I'm not a producer. I'm not an a C level person, but I genuinely care about people.

46:10

And I think that definitely comes from my lucky lab.

46:12

Like that's 100% Puerto Rican. Like I just love people.

46:16

And I love talking to people and I love getting to know people

46:20

and that level of personal, where it's like, you are my coworker.

46:25

You don't have to be my friend, but I see you as a human being.

46:28

I see your interests. I see your dislikes.

46:30

I see your vocabulary, your mannerisms, your experience.

46:34

And I want to treat you like you would like to be treated

46:38

with respect with value. And I always go beyond just like, Oh this is my team members.

46:44

Like, no, this is John, you know, like I know who they are.

46:47

I know what they like. I can feel comfortable going out for a walk with them,

46:51

going out to lunch with them. We can talk about life.

46:54

and at lunchtime we don't have to just talk about work.

46:57

We can be like, yeah. I was watching the show.

46:59

Like, I really like it. Like, do you have any recommendations for me?

47:02

And I can intern say the same thing. Like, I feel like that's what makes the team.

47:07

And when you feel comfortable and you feel valued and you feel

47:10

seen you do good work together,

47:13

You know what I mean? Because you know that no matter what's going to happen in

47:17

the meeting, I got your back. If somebody doesn't understand what you're saying, I could be

47:21

like, no, no, you know what? I think that John's idea is valid, even though it may have X and Y

47:27

and Z concerns, we can still try to weave it in this other way.

47:31

Right. And I could literally collaborate with you in your ideas because my

47:37

ideas on my designs are not any better than anybody else on the team.

47:41

Like we're literally all in it together.

47:44

If any of us were to fall out, for whatever reason, we would be missing

47:48

an integral piece into the project.

47:50

You know what I mean? And that's why one of the reasons why I have a love, hate relationship

47:55

with ODOT Kadima, because he's like that, he's like, nah, I saw me.

47:59

This is my game. I designed it. I programmed it.

48:02

I did everything for it. Like it was just like, bro, like without your team, your game wouldn't exist.

48:09

I couldn't design by myself.

48:12

Like my designs are good because my team gave me feedback and they

48:16

helped me get it to that state. I learned that from like being little and just like relationships,

48:22

friendships, like doing stuff at home.

48:24

Like, we were always very communal.

48:27

Like my parents are like, we are a group.

48:30

this house is not clean if we don't all pour apart, literally

48:33

I was brought up like that. So my mom wasn't the only one that cleaned.

48:36

It was my mom, my dad, me and my brothers.

48:39

Everybody had their, tours and their special things that they

48:42

needed to do to keep the house stable and clean and beautiful.

48:46

Right. So it's like the same way that I think about being on a game team.

48:50

Like I do my part and I bring something to the table, but it is nothing.

48:55

if everybody else doesn't bring their stuff to the table,

48:58

you know what I mean? And then that way we complete the whole pie.

49:02

Um John: the weakest link they say.

49:05

Right? Like Elaine: Right, exactly

49:07

John: These are skills that aren't typically taught in school, right?

49:11

You can make the argument that you can't teach these skills they often

49:15

do come from your upbringing, your experiences in life, your opportunities

49:20

working, other jobs, build these up.

49:23

it's a shame too, because are typically not things that people

49:27

write on a resume that you can go, oh, I'm a great people person.

49:30

I got the soft skills, right? Like you don't really get to call it out.

49:33

It, it has to kind of come across in your interview style or the stories you tell.

49:40

And I think this key positions that are really crucial to have these roles.

49:45

So any role that you're a people manager, a producer, I would say, you know, I'm

49:50

biased, but I'll say for game designers who play this critical glue between the

49:56

creative division of the game, and, um, being, being that team builder, right.

50:01

That, that kind of the creative contribution from

50:06

everybody and everywhere. Right. To be like, yo yeah, I, my title was designer, but want to hear your ideas.

50:11

I want your feedback. I Elaine: right? John: to let me know how this is working, ultimately building those bridges

50:16

and fostering that, communication. So everything you've got.

50:20

adds on to that package as a designer.

50:23

Elaine: It's not easy. . It's not easy being personable and like putting yourself out there

50:27

saying good morning, every, every standup, you know what I mean?

50:31

Like go away, but it's like, don't talk to me.

50:34

Like, I'm just trying to like get through my day,

50:38

you know what I mean? But when it becomes habit, then people start remember, oh, and

50:43

Lynn didn't say good morning today. Like, I wonder if she's okay.

50:47

Yes. it has happened before. one time at work at Elaine, I didn't wear makeup and several people

50:52

messaged me on slack and they're like, bro, are you all right?

50:55

I guess something going on. Yeah. And I was just like, I just woke up late.

51:00

I didn't have time to do my face,

51:03

John: does it Elaine: it's, nice. It's nice that people observe you in the same way that you observe them.

51:08

And because you and because you put in that effort, like people

51:13

see that and they will reciprocate. I have never had instance where somebody has not reciprocated my

51:18

effort into at least just being kind.

51:20

John: Work tends to be passionate opinionated job that we have

51:26

Elaine: Yes John: you know, discussions are going to get heated and people are going

51:29

to get defensive whenever it's their baby or their thing or their idea.

51:33

for the most part, you can always fall back to be like, Hey, we like

51:38

this because we care about the thing. It's nothing personal.

51:42

curious if you've fallen into any of these situations, On the job.

51:46

Have you had the benefit of working with Experienced people, newer people,

51:50

temperamental people, what types of dynamics have you seen?

51:54

Elaine: I've definitely worked with all of the above.

51:57

I know what it's like to have a manager who was just an asshole

52:02

John: my goodness. Elaine: wants to throw you under the bus.

52:05

He wants to make you feel like you're nothing.

52:07

I've had that happen to me, to the point where like I had to go to therapy

52:10

because this person had crossed a line.

52:14

and you know, as a woman in games, you know, it gets a little bit, even more

52:18

elevated because people, for whatever reason, feel like they are entitled to

52:23

speak to me a certain way, know that a guy designer would not have been spoken to.

52:28

Then that way John: meaning like in a, in a talking down type

52:31

of thing. Elaine: there, are you talking down type of, we have like, Oh,

52:33

you don't know what you're doing. John: Oh Elaine: Um,

52:36

something like this, this happened to me, one of my managers, a studio

52:39

that I was at, he straight up told me if you think that you can design

52:43

better than me, you're sadly mistaken.

52:46

Even though I was like, bro, like I have a master's in game design.

52:49

I know that I can design better than you because I have the

52:52

fundamentals that you do not.

52:55

But I wasn't, I can't say that to an

52:57

executive. I got fired. John: it sounds like insecurity was coming out.

53:01

Like he felt threatened, Elaine: Oh yeah. John: to kind of say something out of his

53:04

Elaine: Yup and that's the same manager who like, literally

53:07

like destroyed my self esteem. Like he would ask me, like, where would you want to be in five to 10 years?

53:12

You know, very basic John: yeah. Elaine: And I told him, you know, I want to be a creative director.

53:15

That's like my goal. And he literally laughed at me.

53:18

He laughed at me and was just like, you don't have what it takes

53:22

John: Wow. Elaine: Like, good luck doing that.

53:26

John: by this time you were like how many years into the job until the industry?

53:30

Elaine: About two years or so, would say two, three years.

53:33

but this person crossed the line. they, really, really did.

53:36

And they broke me. It broke my spirit because I was so passionate driven.

53:42

I've always been that way. But everything that I would do, he would just criticize and like break down.

53:47

He would tell me to rewrite stuff. There was a time where he got so mad at me, cause I didn't do things to

53:52

the T that he wanted me to do it. And he literally me to his office, locked the door behind me and

53:59

was just laying it out on me. Like, what I'm telling you, this person's veins were popping out of his neck and

54:05

his forehead and he's red in the face.

54:08

incompetent, incoherent.

54:11

don't know what you're doing. The only reason you have this job is because of me.

54:16

as easily as I brought you in, I can take you out.

54:20

if you think you're going to be anybody at the studio will think again,

54:23

John: that is not okay. Elaine: I was not okay.

54:26

And I got worst job because after he yelled at me like that and I was

54:29

like, teary-eyed imagine somebody John: a frustration to, I

54:33

Elaine: Yes. John: anger, Elaine: And it

54:35

John: uppercut to dude Elaine: yeah. And it was like, I felt like it was so unnecessary and so unprofessional.

54:40

and especially because he closed the door behind him.

54:43

Right. So nobody could hear. my eyes started watering because hello was like 10:00 AM in the morning.

54:48

John: just starting your day Elaine: in and design meeting right after that talk.

54:52

And I kid you not, when he saw me getting watery eyed, after he was done yelling

54:57

at me, like screaming, yelling at me,

55:00

John he's like, and I'm telling you all these things because I love you.

55:03

And I was just like, John: Wow.

55:06

Elaine: mother was like, oh yeah.

55:12

But then a lot of things started making sense because

55:14

my guy had like, been asking me like, shit about my relationships.

55:18

Like, why are you dating this guy? Like you deserve better than that.

55:21

And like they started making sense, started piecing together.

55:25

I was like, bro, you're like, you're married. You have a child.

55:27

Like, y'all all this stuff. Like, this is so bad.

55:30

John: appropriate. Elaine: And it took me six months because I was so scared.

55:34

I was scared to lose my job and I couldn't lose my job because I needed the income.

55:38

But it took me six months to like muster up the courage and be like, all right, now

55:42

I'm going to go to my creative director. I'm going to go into my producer and I'm going to tell him what

55:46

happened because I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe here with this person

55:50

working with this guy. John: tough it out, man.

55:53

Elaine: Yup. I would literally drive to. Crying.

55:56

I was just like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here.

55:59

And I'll be just like crying on my way to work and just like picking

56:02

myself up tickets, deep breath and walking through that door.

56:05

This was pre COVID. Right. But it was so

56:08

so hard. And anytime this person talked down to me in meetings with other

56:12

people, nobody would say anything. Everybody was stay quiet.

56:16

Even when our producer was like a woman, like she didn't even say anything.

56:20

And I was just like, nobody loves stand out for me to this dude.

56:24

Yeah. and wasn't only that finally, when I was able to speak up and

56:28

talk about it with my director and stuff, they moved me from him.

56:31

So he no longer was my manager. The CEO became my manager.

56:35

So things became a little bit better for me. John: As a result of you speaking up.

56:39

Elaine: Yes. But even then I had a one-on-one with the CEO and he like snickered him.

56:43

And he's like, I'm not gonna fire him. Like, he's a, C-level like, he's been at this company for X amount of time.

56:49

Like I'm not going to fire him. and I was like, all right, well, he's going to keep treating people

56:52

like this because no boundaries have been placed and he hasn't been spoken

56:56

to or whatever, but not my problem. They moved me to somebody else.

57:00

But then again, they hired a new person that treated me the exact same.

57:04

John: it could be your manager, Elaine: Yeah. A new manager, a new manager guy.

57:08

And he would like talk down to me in meetings.

57:12

be like, well, what do you want this to be? You want this to continue the same that it was.

57:16

Is that what you want? Like you would talk to me like that.

57:18

And again, nobody was saying anything and the another woman in

57:21

the room wouldn't say anything. So at that point I was like, you know what?

57:25

I can't be here anymore. John: Yeah,

57:27

Elaine: of there. but it was, I was really suffering in silence.

57:31

John: that's insane. Like, I mean, that's a long time and what's easily apparent just from

57:36

your stories is it's ingrained in the culture, in the people that they

57:41

hire in the way that things are. Okay. And let's slip under the rug and these are places that I don't know how they

57:47

survive, I don't know how they succeed and how they continue to bring people on.

57:53

Right. Like, I, I feel like Elaine: Nope. John: types of places, all the types of places that.

57:57

talent and just kind of keep the people that can't get work other places.

58:01

Elaine: That's exactly what happened because within the span of like a year,

58:05

half of the studio's gone, cause who wants to be treated like that and go

58:10

into an environment that's so hostile and tense, it's not fun to work anymore.

58:15

It's like, you were literally trying to survive until you clock out.

58:19

And it's just like, I don't want it.

58:22

it's so heartbreaking because it didn't have to be that way.

58:25

know what I mean? If you were just to correct people's behavior, everything would work

58:30

out and it would be fun, but it's the lack of initiative correct

58:35

people and to make things right.

58:37

to make sure that your, team feels valued and they feel respected, you

58:40

know, and that they have what they need. Um

58:43

John: take much it's one of those things where it just takes one

58:47

person to stand up and speak up

58:50

all it is. Right. That goes back to an ally for our teammates for one another, cause

58:56

odds are, everybody has that little, little pinch in their chest or kind

59:01

of behind the neck, you know, like, oh, you know, I wouldn't like that.

59:04

If it was me and that's kind of the fucking cue stand up and say

59:09

something In, the moment, properly, respectfully as possible, right?

59:13

Like it doesn't have to be anything other than like, that's not okay.

59:17

Or, Hey guys, let's take a break. Right? Like,

59:19

Elaine: Right John: person, that's flipping out screaming, being disrespectful.

59:23

You need to take a break, step outside. And, and that's not going to feel good and it might fuel the fire, but

59:29

I bet you, after a couple of times somebody is going to get it right.

59:33

It's going to sink in and be like, damn man, I'm missing out on a lot of key

59:36

discussions or meetings that people don't want to talk to me or people

59:38

don't want to bring me any of the ideas. I'm saying this shit all idealistically,

59:43

Elaine: Yeah. John: know for a fact, his dumb hardheaded motherfuckers that that are

59:46

like, oh yeah, this is the way it is.

59:48

And I'm always right. Elaine: there are dudes like that and they will not change.

59:52

And I'm not here to change people what to do, like, you going to respect me or we're going to see

59:57

what happens because I'm not going to be nobody's doormat either.

1:00:01

that's not why I'm working. I'm why I'm here.

1:00:04

You know what I mean? had to have one-on-one conversations with dudes, where I was like,

1:00:09

Hey, like you talk down to me. And that made me upset.

1:00:13

that was disrespectful. And I would appreciate if you doing do that again.

1:00:16

I don't talk to you like that. we're a team we're supposed to like build each other up, not

1:00:21

treat each other like this. John: does that land?

1:00:23

How does it help that Elaine: for John: give, receive Elaine: part, everybody's like, oh, I'm so sorry.

1:00:27

And like I had no idea that you took it that way or, like my bad,

1:00:31

like I'm just really frustrated. And I took it out on you.

1:00:33

My apologies. It's like, take your shit out on me.

1:00:37

Like, I'm not your mama. Like, I'm your coworker.

1:00:40

You know what I mean? But when I became friends with some of the, my coworkers, like I

1:00:45

would be honest, like 100, I was like, You need to fix your shit.

1:00:49

And I would say things like, and you know, you question why you're

1:00:52

not in a relationship, white girls don't want to talk to you.

1:00:54

It's because you like this. Why would anybody want to be with somebody?

1:00:58

Who's constantly putting people down. Who's constantly negative.

1:01:01

Seeing the bad in everything. Like literally like take a look at yourself in the mirror

1:01:06

and be like, what about me? Isn't that is not attractive to other people on them.

1:01:11

Maybe you could find a girl and it'd be like that.

1:01:14

I was like that personal it's like blunt in like, sure.

1:01:17

Sometimes I may have offended people, but they always are like, you know what lane?

1:01:21

I was rough. If he were in as much tough love as you gave me, like you were right.

1:01:25

And nobody has spoken to me like that before.

1:01:27

Nobody has me that before. And I was like, Yeah.

1:01:29

because I legit care about you. And when you care about somebody, it's a friend, coworker,

1:01:35

whatever, want the best for them.

1:01:37

Like, I don't want harm to come to my coworkers, anybody that I care about,

1:01:41

I'm going to challenge you to be better. If I see something that's not right,

1:01:45

John: Yeah. Elaine: or that I know that you can get better at because it's, it's achievable.

1:01:50

It's not impossible. impossible to be.

1:01:52

Kind to people or respectful, like, Yeah.

1:01:55

like you said, it's like, some people are just born that way.

1:01:58

They have the ability to just read people and they can read the

1:02:02

room and they know what to say. And you know, there are people, persons, some people are not like that,

1:02:08

but you can be like, you know what? You need to understand people's body language.

1:02:12

Like was their face? How are they expressing themselves with the vocabulary that they're using and

1:02:17

use that in order to to them, like learn.

1:02:20

Communicate, like that's such an important, like it's a key

1:02:25

to anything like for our work,

1:02:28

for our relationships, our personal life, I don't care what it is.

1:02:31

Like communication is key. you cannot express yourself, you don't know how identify, how you feel so

1:02:38

that you can tell the other person what's up, then, you know, take time

1:02:42

to do that because it's so important.

1:02:44

And it really changes. Everything in your life.

1:02:48

John: Yes Elaine: does when people know exactly what it is that you have on your mind.

1:02:52

You're like, all right. You know, even if you need to take a day, you need to take a week, do

1:02:57

whatever you need to do, but communicate with whatever you need to communicate.

1:03:00

And that's helped me a lot. And I learned that very hard way, you know, waiting six months to

1:03:07

communicate that I felt trapped.

1:03:09

Yeah. John: long. Elaine: Or like being in a relationship for six months, six years, even

1:03:14

though I knew that it was toxic because I didn't want to let them go and I didn't want to be alone.

1:03:18

And I couldn't communicate the fact that I was hurt and needed to bounce.

1:03:22

You know what I mean? Like all of that is all interconnected.

1:03:27

Like who we come at, the game studio, who we bring is the exact same people

1:03:31

that, who we are in, like in our houses.

1:03:34

Right. Like I'm not going to face that, but that's just

1:03:37

me. Right? Like I'm not in certain type of way with like my friends and my family.

1:03:42

And then all of a sudden I'm a different Elaine.

1:03:44

When I come into my studio, like, I'm the same person, but the emotions

1:03:49

and the things that I, have going on, sometimes in my life, I bring that into

1:03:53

the studio because I cannot set up. That.

1:03:55

Right. So if I am sad because my grandmother is dying, like I'm going to try

1:04:00

my best to put a smile on my face, but that means some days

1:04:03

I'm just going to be a little up. I gotta, you know what I mean?

1:04:05

Like not going to be smiley and like everything side, like

1:04:09

I'm going to be sadly, but at least if people can read that

1:04:13

and can be like, yo Elaine should we have a meeting right now?

1:04:15

Like, are you good? Like, do you need some time?

1:04:17

Do you need to take the day off, feel free to do that.

1:04:20

When people see you and like, and you can communicate that, like, it

1:04:23

just makes your life so much easier. really really does.

1:04:26

And like, I, I drove it. I live a drama free life

1:04:29

and I am so, so happy for that.

1:04:32

But it's because I have learned to communicate and identify are

1:04:36

things that are not good for me. And you know, what are things that might bear me down?

1:04:40

Like this person, maybe I love them so much that they bring too much drama.

1:04:43

So like I created a little And then I'll be like, you know, I love you and I care about you, but like, don't

1:04:49

dump your problems on me because that hurts me solely, you know, stay away.

1:04:53

You know what I mean? But that's, it's hard and it takes a lot of growing up be able to do that.

1:04:58

And not everybody can do that, you have people like me.

1:05:02

be your friend and I can help. You I

1:05:04

mean John: to help everybody. I, yeah, it's it's you seem like a wonderful person to

1:05:09

have on the team for sure. And, this for sure.

1:05:12

People that might take advantage of it or might cross the boundary reason.

1:05:15

It Elaine: 100 Yeah John: gotten to the point now where you can spot that, recognize it and establish

1:05:20

those boundaries and reaffirm to be like, Hey, thank we thou have a conversation.

1:05:25

not again, kind of situation. I've worked with a bunch of people in executive roles that are the

1:05:31

best at reading people, but what they are good at is questions.

1:05:36

and so that, that kinda makes up for their lack of being able to read faces

1:05:40

or catch tone or assess body language, Is to just be like, does this make sense?

1:05:45

How did that feel? Hey, I'm not sure I'm unsure of how that landed, how that came across.

1:05:51

Please let me know kind of thing. Right? So if you fall into that category of like, I don't really know how

1:05:56

to read body language of people, you know, then be more inquisitive.

1:06:02

Right? Take a pause and ask going on in the room.

1:06:06

What's going on with people. I love that. I love, especially on zoom, you know, when it's silent.

1:06:12

Elaine: Yes. John: saying anything. Ask, ask, right?

1:06:16

Like, Hey person in the top left corner of the screen, what do you think about this?

1:06:21

Right? Or like, this make sense?

1:06:23

I'm talking too much right now. that's all it is.

1:06:25

Right? Like you, you, you don't have to be skilled or strong to questions,

1:06:31

Elaine: Right. And even, if you feel free to ask questions, right.

1:06:35

Like yeah. Which happens.

1:06:37

we live in an age where there's so much information on the internet I'm sure you

1:06:43

can go to YouTube right now and be like, top tips for like conflict resolution.

1:06:47

Right. And you can watch a video. I'm like, what are the things that you should do?

1:06:51

If you see somebody like arguing in your, in your meeting you want

1:06:55

to, help dissing, diffuse the situation, you know what I mean?

1:07:00

even if it's like, you know, there's like me and like somebody has harassed

1:07:04

you or like, you really feel trapped. Like there, I know there's information out there on like what to do.

1:07:10

Who can you go to? what is the process?

1:07:12

Even if it's legal, what is the process that you need to go

1:07:14

through in order make sure that you get justice for what happened?

1:07:19

there's a lot of information out there. So even if you're afraid and you don't know what to ask, look it

1:07:23

up and inform yourself, educate yourself because knowledge is power.

1:07:27

And even if you can't put it into practice, never know if there's

1:07:31

somebody in your life who's going to need those skills or that knowledge.

1:07:35

And you can share it John: on the job, right?

1:07:38

Like you hopefully have access to HR that you can approach with whatever's

1:07:45

going on professionally at the office.

1:07:48

know, if your manager's not a resource you can go to, or your

1:07:51

manager's manager, there's usually HR.

1:07:54

And like you said, right? Like if, if you don't have friends and the culture is overwhelmingly in

1:08:00

a direction that is making you worse at your job, less bubbly than you

1:08:05

naturally normally are in your day to day, then reach out to us because both

1:08:10

of our teams are always hiring sure.

1:08:14

You've done so much in what I, I think is, like you said, your mid-level

1:08:20

five years, I think you got so much ahead of you up so many big things,

1:08:25

but you've already accomplished a ton of things in particular.

1:08:30

I'm super excited for what you have helped to create in Latin X in gaming, because

1:08:38

this was a big void that existed when I

1:08:42

Elaine: Sure. John: up and coming in the industry. And there is now a space for us.

1:08:47

Elaine: Yeah. John: tell me more about how this came to be and your involvement in it.

1:08:52

Elaine: to be honest, I always give credit to Christina Maya.

1:08:55

She sees our president and the one who really did her homework, to be honest

1:09:00

and try to reach out to people like me.

1:09:02

And she's like, Hey, identified you as somebody who like, is really

1:09:05

passionate about the community, do you want to start something?

1:09:08

and it literally was just a simple meeting between a few

1:09:11

people, like a handful of people. And we're like, what can we do to help our community?

1:09:16

Because there is nothing out there and we want to have something, even

1:09:21

if that means we need to do it. you know what I mean?

1:09:23

Cause it's going to be work. It's like realizing, okay, like we need a time though.

1:09:28

We need perhaps to put in our own money to create some things are

1:09:32

we willing to make that sacrifice? but I said, yes.

1:09:35

and it happened at GDC, the game developers conference in 2017.

1:09:40

That's where I met Christina. And at the time she was working at Twitch, so she invited me to Twitch and like I

1:09:44

had food there and the office was insane.

1:09:48

Like they have like snacks and like containers

1:09:50

Yes. In San Francisco. It was so

1:09:53

cool. Yes. So it was so cool.

1:09:56

And it was just nice to talk to her about, you know, her passion,

1:10:00

her desires and what she wanted.

1:10:02

used to be called Lennox in game. and I was like, you know what, whatever you need, I'm here.

1:10:07

Like I just want to help. in whatever way I can be useful.

1:10:09

Like just let me know. and I became a staff of Latin X and games.

1:10:14

That's started morphing into Latin X and gaming, which is the name that we adopted.

1:10:19

we like rebranded. we got a website and like All that cool stuff.

1:10:23

And then we started not only meeting once a year at GDC.

1:10:27

Cause that's really where it started. It was the Lennox and games, IGD chapter.

1:10:32

how we started. so it was like, we were a SIG in IGA.

1:10:36

and we decided that we could do a little bit more by just becoming a nonprofit.

1:10:39

Right. that way it's easier for companies to sponsor financially when it's a nonprofit,

1:10:45

for tax reasons, this looks good. for them or whatever.

1:10:47

Right. so that's what we decided to do.

1:10:50

So it took a few years to get there.

1:10:52

Right. So we were working really hard to try to be part of conferences and conventions

1:10:58

and things like that, but we realized that we could do a lot more if we just had

1:11:02

a community online, because the reality was that there's people all over the

1:11:06

world who just can not attend conferences and conventions in the United States.

1:11:12

You know, like it's a financial feat, right?

1:11:14

Imagine like an indie team from like Columbia trying to come to GDC.

1:11:19

And like we're talking about thousands, thousands, thousands of dollars.

1:11:23

So, if we can figure out how to create a hub online, where any developers or

1:11:30

industry professionals from around Latino America or the Caribbean can be a part

1:11:35

of where they can, post their games, post their projects, their streams,

1:11:39

whatever it may be maybe that would be better, So we decided to do that and we

1:11:44

put up a discord and the really, after we put up a discord, we like a celery.

1:11:49

We like boomed. We got partnered on this chord, like overnight, almost because

1:11:53

Christina ended up working on discord within that timeframe.

1:11:57

we got there. because she worked at Twitch, like she had connections to get

1:12:01

us partnered for Twitch as well. So we just started getting like all these, essentially little checkmarks right

1:12:08

in different social medias. And then really wasn't until we put up only those online last year,

1:12:14

which was our Hispanic heritage month

1:12:17

on Twitch. Yes. It really wasn't until then that people us and they were like,

1:12:22

wow, like who's Lennox and gamey.

1:12:24

And they seem like they're popping. They seem like they're doing John: Yup.

1:12:27

Yup Elaine: uh, we started to getting, seen by a lot of more

1:12:30

studios, a lot of more people. started getting a lot more love, with a lot of love also came

1:12:35

a little bit of hate, right? the trolls who are like.

1:12:38

Latin X is in a word LA, John: Yup.

1:12:42

trying to be inclusive, man. I saw Elaine: exactly.

1:12:44

So we're still dealing with That Right. But think when he goes online really was a game changer for us.

1:12:50

And then when, like the articles started published and the award started coming in

1:12:57

the game awards reached out to Christy and they're like, Hey, we want to do a piece.

1:13:01

We want to award you. John: was awesome. cannot tell you, I think by then I had already done panel with

1:13:07

you and I love the game awards.

1:13:10

I love what it's become, it ends up being a lot of announcements and trailers and

1:13:14

sneak peaks, but still, I love seeing the homeys on there and seeing

1:13:19

you guys get featured amazing.

1:13:22

It was amazing. Amazing, amazing. It was so

1:13:24

Elaine: Thank you John: guys recognize on that stage people know, because again, I, I don't know.

1:13:30

I don't even remember how I found out about it. , both so happy that I did.

1:13:34

And I think it was through the discord and it was completely like,

1:13:36

oh my God, where has this been? career.

1:13:39

Right. I'm so happy. I found it. Elaine: you know, a lot of people tell us that same thing.

1:13:43

They're like, I'm so happy that we have familiar now.

1:13:46

Like we, I didn't know that y'all existed.

1:13:49

I'm so happy that you do. and that makes us feel special because with any organization, any

1:13:54

group that you try to build, when you start it, it's really hard you get

1:13:58

really discouraged. Yeah.

1:14:01

You get really discouraged because in the beginning you're like, you

1:14:03

know, we're putting all this effort and energy, where is everybody?

1:14:07

Like, why aren't people turning up? Why aren't people supporting

1:14:10

us John: food. I got games. Where is everybody

1:14:13

Elaine: Exactly. And, it wasn't until we started getting awards and accolades

1:14:18

that people to take notice.

1:14:20

And when, I mean people, I mean like studios and company,

1:14:23

John: Sure, sure. Elaine: you know John: can get their brand on, get

1:14:26

money Elaine: that we would have, we reached out prior and didn't give us a time of day.

1:14:31

And then all of a sudden they're like, Hey guys, they were like, okay,

1:14:34

John: Well, Elaine: gladly like with you, but in the inside, it's just like, you

1:14:39

know, it's a little bit hurtful that we John: say I wanted to say in seeing representations, making people

1:14:47

aware of who's in the space, doing the job, they want to do that.

1:14:51

It can look like you, me, it can be from any it's much more

1:14:54

open and much more accessible. I can count on one hand the number of, non male designers

1:15:00

that I've worked with and I can.

1:15:03

Recall a Hispanic woman designer that I've worked with.

1:15:08

it doesn't exist. I would have thought before I met you, that it didn't exist.

1:15:12

it's so awesome that the unicorn has been caught.

1:15:16

And as a result of that, I've gotten to meet so many more, right through Latin

1:15:19

X and gaming through your connections. And I want to call this out because I have a lot of nieces and nephews out there

1:15:26

I want them to see you know, they're, they're half Boriqua, half Dominican

1:15:31

or my sister-in-law's Puerto Rican. Uh, shout out to Giana, out if this is something they want to do,

1:15:37

that you have someone living proof embodiments of coming from similar

1:15:42

upbringings to be like, Hey, this is a viable and lucrative career path.

1:15:48

a good living out of it, but they got to hustle. It's not going to be easy.

1:15:51

Elaine: Yeah. It's John: to Elaine: and that's like anything in life, right?

1:15:54

Like I always, I tell people my story, which is when I was getting ready for

1:16:00

college games, wasn't even in my radar.

1:16:02

John: wow. Elaine: Nope. This came to

1:16:04

be when I was about 23 years old. I was a junior in college and I had to decide what major TIFF officially declare,

1:16:11

John: You were undeclared. Elaine: the reason why I was on declared was because even though I wanted to

1:16:16

pursue biomedical engineering and pre-med like, I had my eyes and my heart set on

1:16:21

that when I started college, I didn't get into school of engineering because

1:16:25

my sat math scores were not high enough.

1:16:27

so what I did instead was I went to college undeclared and prepping for a

1:16:33

transfer to the school of engineering. So I started to take all of those pre-recs that you needed.

1:16:38

but in doing all of that, that's when I decided I was like, I

1:16:41

am, do not want to be a doctor.

1:16:44

is not for me. And I had to have that big conversation with my

1:16:47

which was John: and biology and

1:16:50

Elaine: it was the, the, upper level math.

1:16:52

So after calculus two, it was like, uh,

1:16:56

John: Hey, but that's so much in games, man.

1:16:58

There's a lot of trig vector math and

1:17:01

Elaine: yeah, when you're a programmer, I don't

1:17:04

John: through Elaine: any of that. Yeah. I mean, it's helpful to understand certain things, but never have, I once

1:17:11

had to do any type of trade or calculus.

1:17:14

John: I'm in there right now, girl, like when we, when, before we got

1:17:18

linked up, my head was like in some nasty rotation and why isn't the

1:17:23

guy looking at the guy , you know?

1:17:26

And so super happy that it was like, yo podcast time.

1:17:30

I'm a log off. I'm a sign off. I'm gonna get a beer.

1:17:34

we're going to de-stress unwind. And I'll come back to it with a clear head tomorrow

1:17:38

and maybe reach out to some programmer buddies, right.

1:17:41

To be like, yo, what the fuck is up with this factor right here?

1:17:44

Elaine: that's, what's great about game development is like, when you

1:17:46

have a weakness, there's somebody who always has this strength

1:17:49

or her strength. So you can just go to them. They're the expert

1:17:53

and they can help you out. John: Ask for help.

1:17:55

Quick, fast. Right. And we what is it called?

1:17:58

I don't know. I always change the number every time I say it, but it's

1:18:00

like a 10 minute rule, right? Like it's taking you longer than 10 minutes to figure out a plan or a

1:18:05

strategy and you honestly read and try to brush up on and, and Google

1:18:10

some things in verse yourself. If it's going to save you an hour it's going to take someone

1:18:14

else 10 minutes, go over and

1:18:16

Elaine: Yep John: for help. Yeah. Elaine: I learned to do that the hard way as well.

1:18:21

John: You seem so. Elaine: I'm a strong, independent

1:18:23

woman. I can figure this out myself and that's Lena.

1:18:26

I don't, I can't do this. John: Where does that come from out of curiosity, right?

1:18:30

Dislike headstrong. Like, I don't need no help.

1:18:33

I could do it on myself kind of thing. Elaine: that came from when I was little.

1:18:38

So when I was three years old, I contracted some

1:18:43

bacterial infection something.

1:18:45

I don't know. They never found out.

1:18:48

John: I life Elaine: Yes. So what it ended up happening was that I went into like septic shock, which means

1:18:55

all my organs started shutting down. this is all secondhand information that my parents have given me.

1:18:59

Cause I John: Yeah Elaine: I don't really remember what happened, but my mom was like, Yeah.

1:19:04

you were, your fever would, go up to like 105, 106.

1:19:09

And when we brought you to the hospital, like they had to dunk you in ice and water

1:19:13

to bring your temperature down because you were not responding to medication,

1:19:17

you were not responding to anything. they had to put me on a breathing machine and everything.

1:19:20

I couldn't breathe on my own. I couldn't eat.

1:19:23

and this all happened. I was three years old. So, what ended up happening was that this bacteria, whatever it

1:19:28

was, it started creating, sepsis in, my hands and my feet, which means.

1:19:33

not only that it was, it was sepsis six anchoring gangrene.

1:19:36

John: Oh yeah. Elaine: So all the oxygen supply to like my hands and my feet were getting cut off.

1:19:41

The blood circulation was not flowing. Therefore started developing gangrene, which is the death of tissue.

1:19:47

Right. was that I got gangrene to my elbows and my knees.

1:19:53

the doctors are ready. I literally amputate my arms and my legs.

1:19:58

John: You going to make games that are your arms. Elaine: seriously.

1:20:00

Right. apparently this is like a really mutated, very rare bacteria, they sent my blood

1:20:07

and like tissue cultures to the best hospital in the world, which at the time

1:20:13

in Atlanta, Atlanta children's hospital.

1:20:15

And they did tests over there. and they couldn't figure out what the hell is.

1:20:18

essentially the doctors told my parents to brace themselves.

1:20:20

They're like, she's going to die. Get ready for her funeral, figure out what you're going to do.

1:20:25

all we can do is just wait because are not working.

1:20:29

no treatments are working for her. And my parents are like, all right, well, all we can do is pray.

1:20:34

So that's what they did. They were just praying.

1:20:37

And one of the doctors had this brilliant idea.

1:20:39

He's like, listen, I've been taking these new courses at medical school, where

1:20:43

they're indigenous, oils that they are working on just indigenous medicine.

1:20:48

And they're like, let's try. I'm not going to guarantee.

1:20:50

I have no idea that it's going to do anything, but let's try it to see if we

1:20:53

can improve blood circulation so that we can minimize amputating her arms and legs.

1:20:59

And maybe we can amputate less.

1:21:02

So they did that for a little while. And then my mom and the nurses literally would run these like indigenous,

1:21:08

like oil mixes with herbs and stuff

1:21:10

John: you gotta be some CPD in there. I'm Elaine: E I'm.

1:21:12

Sure. I was like arms and legs and it was constant.

1:21:16

But with that came also scraping the dead skin off because gangrene

1:21:21

it dries everything up at Tribbles. Right. So if you're trying to improve blood circulation, y'all also have to

1:21:27

remove whatever dead skin is coming. And apparently my mom told me that that was very painful for me.

1:21:32

And I would cry and the nurse, the nurses would not touch me.

1:21:35

They didn't want to see me crying in pain.

1:21:38

So my mom not being a nurse or anything like that, she would

1:21:42

be scrubbing it in like to the point where I would bleed right.

1:21:45

To remove all this stuff. Long story short.

1:21:49

the oils, indigenous oil concoctions worked

1:21:53

the prayers and they only have to amputate like the very tips of my

1:21:57

fingers and some of my toes of like my full arm, like half arm and a half leg.

1:22:03

So since that, right, I had to go through physical therapy and all this

1:22:08

other stuff, but I have amputations.

1:22:10

Right. And one of the things I'm a pediatrician sold, my mom was like, do you

1:22:15

think that Elaine's handicapped? And my mom said, no, like, Elaine would only be handicapped

1:22:20

independent if you make her that way.

1:22:23

So allow her to learn how to tie her shoes, to button up her shirts, how to

1:22:29

read, how to write, allow her to do that on her own so that she can be independent.

1:22:34

That's where the independent came from. Because my parents, my parents, literally would allow me to struggle

1:22:40

and cry it was hard for me to do some things with my amputations.

1:22:45

John: Yeah. Uh, specifically at three years young.

1:22:48

Elaine: Yep. I had to grow up and mature a lot quicker than, somebody, my age would,

1:22:53

you know what I mean And I'm the oldest of my siblings, app.

1:22:56

So John: weren't easy on you. Elaine: Oh, Yeah,

1:23:00

One, 100%. But that in the sense of independence came from that, because my parents

1:23:06

fostered that from me from an early age,

1:23:08

because they were like, even though you have been through this, even

1:23:11

though you are different than everybody else, you are capable of doing

1:23:17

everything that everybody else can. And that, that was it.

1:23:22

So I've always John: yeah, Elaine: a go getter and always been super independent.

1:23:24

And I can do things on my own because since I was little,

1:23:28

that's my parents taught me from going through all of that.

1:23:31

John: It makes all the sense in the world.

1:23:34

Thank you so much for bravely sharing that story.

1:23:38

Elaine: No worries. John: Like how you.

1:23:41

Exists six months plus in a shitty work environment without telling

1:23:47

anybody or whatever, then looking for work for a year, trying to

1:23:52

leave this shitty workplace and

1:23:54

Elaine: Yep. John: for the put on for the referral, for the resume review, for the mentoring, for

1:24:00

Elaine: Yep. Exactly. John: makes sense.

1:24:03

respect you. I have a lot of family members that you remind me of, glad that

1:24:10

you have learned a little bit to invite, go, to, to ask people

1:24:16

helping hand, right? Like I love to see the growth,

1:24:20

Elaine: I definitely, I can say that during the pandemic,

1:24:24

I have experienced the most self-growth of my life.

1:24:29

And it's not because necessarily because of the isolation or the fact that, um,

1:24:34

you know, like we're all stuck at home and I can't do anything else.

1:24:36

It's not so much that is also that I wanted to do it.

1:24:40

Like I self reflected on me and I was like, what are the things in my life?

1:24:46

Or personality traits that I have that I don't really like.

1:24:50

John: um, Elaine: and how can I improve on those things?

1:24:53

So one of them was letting go and like getting help and asking people,

1:24:58

questions, not being as blunt as I used to be, because I was like, not

1:25:03

afraid of hurting people's feelings. let me, I was

1:25:06

like, let me, tell you something straight and you better listen to me.

1:25:09

I don't care how you take it. Like, I love you.

1:25:11

And I care about you and That's why I'm saying this. And I would just lay people out, you know?

1:25:15

But at that end, yes. But what I ended up doing was like, you can push people

1:25:19

away I tried to control that.

1:25:22

I tried to control my frustration, like when I'm going through something at

1:25:26

work or whatever, it may be not taking that out on my partner because I can

1:25:30

explode and it'd be like, let me tell you

1:25:33

something. That's very Puerto Rican of me, but I've been trying to correct that and be like,

1:25:39

you know what, let me take a breather. I don't want to talk right now.

1:25:43

Can we talk in like 15 minutes when I have pulled

1:25:45

John: Step away Elaine: And that has helped me in work too.

1:25:49

Cause then I behave the same way. If somebody says something that I makes me feel uncomfortable or like gets me upset.

1:25:57

I don't react in the moment. Like I used to, I just breathe in, take some time and then reach out,

1:26:04

know? And so all of that's interrelated, I feel in my personal life, we

1:26:07

use into my work life a lot. And a lot of it has to do with how I treat other people, how I speak with

1:26:14

other people, even in Latin X and gaming.

1:26:17

used to be the one where like, I should just lay people out.

1:26:21

Like the staff will be like, I don't like this because of this and

1:26:24

this blah, blah, We can't do this. John: Yup.

1:26:26

Elaine: like, Christina called me and she's like, bro, like, you cannot be that way

1:26:31

people away. People will find you intimidating. And I was like, that's not really who I am.

1:26:37

John: I'm Elaine: to, John: intimidating. Elaine: literally I had to like change the way that I communicated with people

1:26:42

so that I I could still be understood and try to have my point across, but

1:26:48

at the same time, still being mindful and respectful of the other person

1:26:52

and how they're going to receive it. Um,

1:26:55

John: have Christina who is a person you love and trust, uh, be

1:27:00

able to kind of to you straight up, right

1:27:02

And be like, Hey, these very factual.

1:27:05

Right? It's like, these are your actions and this is what they're causing.

1:27:09

Elaine: Right. Yeah. Yeah. John: attacking anything. It's just giving you the facts and the information for you to

1:27:13

interpret and be like, okay, Elaine: Yeah.

1:27:16

John: do something Elaine: that's not easy, right. That doesn't feel good when somebody is like, you need to call them down.

1:27:23

And in turn though, in turn, that makes me comfortable.

1:27:27

Cause then I can go to her and be like, Hey, and like the way that you said

1:27:30

that thing and like, that's not okay. Like maybe we can fix that.

1:27:34

And like we, her and I have had conversations like that and it feels

1:27:38

good to be able to grow together. You know what I mean?

1:27:41

But definitely personally for me, I can say that I have

1:27:44

grown a lot in the past year. I'm happy that I did and it was not easy to do.

1:27:49

You know what I mean? Some hurdles there there's some people that I lost along the

1:27:54

way in all of that happens.

1:27:57

Right. But it's, John: the life. Elaine: and it's life.

1:27:59

Right. John: Yeah, Elaine: long as I feel like, you know, I apologize to the

1:28:03

person, let my thoughts through.

1:28:05

If they want to come back in my life. they're more than welcome to, but I'm not going to force anybody to care about me

1:28:10

or being in my life if they don't want to. And that's okay.

1:28:13

John: yeah, Elaine: You know, yeah.

1:28:16

John: We amen. Uh, 20, 20, right?

1:28:19

It is what you made it. And we're soon coming out on the other side, stronger, better

1:28:25

Elaine: I hope so. John: and bigger, better opportunities.

1:28:28

You were touching on, I was in college getting my masters and

1:28:32

I think we were going to get to. How you broke in at Elan.

1:28:37

I'd love to, finish that story of like getting your masters at USC

1:28:42

and then getting in a line, how, any part of that, that you'd love

1:28:46

to share for people that are always like, oh, how did he lane break in?

1:28:49

How did she become game designer

1:28:52

Elaine: So I broke it in a really weird way. Right.

1:28:54

So when I was in college, like I mentioned like pursuing biomed engineering and

1:28:59

medicine, nothing to do with games.

1:29:01

None of my rec, none of my recs even transferred.

1:29:04

John: Did you play games? Elaine: I did play games and I enjoyed them a lot.

1:29:08

And that was one of the reasons why, when somebody essentially

1:29:13

told me that the games? industry was, viable option,

1:29:16

I didn't even know that's when I was like, Hmm, let me investigate.

1:29:19

Cause that sounds really interesting to me. John: where did that come from?

1:29:22

Elaine: So talking about representation matters.

1:29:26

it was one of my professors at my college

1:29:28

John: Yeah. Elaine: he was Mexican American.

1:29:31

just saw, saw something in me.

1:29:33

He saw my potential, saw how like passionate I was in his courses

1:29:39

and his courses happened to be about like games and like social

1:29:43

informatics and things like that. So I guess he saw my passion and how well I was doing and like all

1:29:49

his li assignments and everything. And he recommended me for this research Institute called , which is

1:29:55

the ice school inclusion Institute.

1:29:59

I was trying to figure out right, what my major was after biomed engineering.

1:30:03

When I went to my Dean, what major can I do that would allow me to

1:30:09

graduate on time because I didn't want to take extra two, three years

1:30:13

to finish. So my Dean was like, there's a major in this school called information

1:30:18

technology and informatics. John: Yeah.

1:30:21

Elaine: it is a short major, it's only 29 credits.

1:30:25

and a lot of people are doing it and they're, you know, getting good jobs.

1:30:28

So if you think you would be interested, I recommend you take the one-on-one course.

1:30:33

And that's where I met the professor. John: Uh,

1:30:37

Elaine: Sanchez. Yeah. John: shout out to Dr. Joe

1:30:40

Elaine: he really changed my life because, it was not only his work,

1:30:43

he was into like heavy metal and punk and all that stuff, which is also what

1:30:47

I'm into. John: interests. Elaine: he was a TA in the it 1 0 1 class, but he had like this

1:30:52

gnarly, braided beard, like it

1:30:55

was so long and it was like red.

1:30:57

and he had like, his ear stretched and like a Mohawk and everything else.

1:31:02

Like this is the coolest TA I've ever seen in my life.

1:31:06

if he ever gives classes, I would love to take his courses.

1:31:09

And he was just like a really, he is a dope person.

1:31:12

after I took that, the one-on-one class, I, decided to major in

1:31:17

it cause I enjoyed it a lot.

1:31:20

So . I graduated with my it degree and in my last semester or so, Dr.

1:31:26

Sanchez, was like, Hey, Ilene, there's this inclusion Institute that encourages

1:31:30

marginalized students to pursue graduate degrees, whether it be masters or PhDs

1:31:36

in information technology or informatics.

1:31:40

I didn't know that. Our school at the time I went to Rutgers university, I didn't

1:31:45

know that our community school of communications was part of this

1:31:48

thing called ice school caucus.

1:31:51

And I school just means it's an informatics school.

1:31:54

And apparently I didn't know this, but it was one of the top

1:31:58

10 schools in the whole world. so I was like, wow, like, this is, this is great.

1:32:02

And he's like, Hey, Elaine, if you want to go to this Institute,

1:32:05

can vouch for you you can get in.

1:32:07

And maybe there'll be a graduate program that you may be interested in if you

1:32:11

don't think you're ready to go into the workforce right after college.

1:32:16

And I always was thinking about doing a master's and a PhD.

1:32:20

So I was intrigued. I went through the application process and I got into the Institute and

1:32:25

it was the summer long Institute.

1:32:28

So we went to the university of Pittsburgh, all expenses paid like the

1:32:32

pay for the flights and everything. And I literally got paid to, to be in part of the summer program.

1:32:39

And what we had to do we had to commit to a year long research project after

1:32:45

we concluded the summer program. So we got, paired up with other students from across the country.

1:32:50

and you had just had to write like a thesis paper essentially

1:32:52

on a topic of your choice. And my team decided to do a paper on representation of women in games.

1:32:59

John: Oh, Elaine: Yeah. So I wrote this whole like 40 page paper with three other students about

1:33:05

only characters and how they're depict, also the state of like gender roles and

1:33:12

things like that, representation in the industry and in the gaming community.

1:33:17

So we looked at online harassment, we looked at, the percentage

1:33:21

of women who have rules in the games industry and all of that.

1:33:24

And that really inspired me to be like, you know what,

1:33:27

I want to make a difference. John: Yeah,

1:33:31

Elaine: And there was another students there that was pursuing

1:33:35

a masters of game design at, NYU.

1:33:39

And she was like telling me all this stuff about the program.

1:33:43

And I was like, you know what? I think that's what I want to do. Like I want to get a masters in game design.

1:33:47

So she's like, I super recommend it. I love it here, do some research because there are some other schools available.

1:33:54

So I did exactly what she suggested.

1:33:56

So I went online and saw that top school at the time was the

1:34:00

university of Southern California. And then in the top 10, it was NYU.

1:34:04

And why you would have been what's my first pick

1:34:06

because it was near home and I could have just stayed home.

1:34:10

but I only applied to two schools, USC and NYU, NYU rejected me and USC me.

1:34:16

So John: Eh, maybe Elaine: up my bags I went and you know, my, my Dean at the school of informatics

1:34:24

at Rutgers, she wrote me a rec letter. Dr.

1:34:27

Sanchez wrote me a rec letter to go to USC.

1:34:29

And, know, there's a whole process where you have to like, write an essay.

1:34:33

Why do you want to come to the school and

1:34:35

all that? And I was just like, I wrote this big, long research paper on like the state

1:34:40

of the industry and wanting to make a difference as a woman, especially

1:34:45

a woman of color in the industry. And if I can get an opportunity to get a degree that I can learn the

1:34:51

craft and actually get role, not just be of game studies, but actually

1:34:57

be a designer or a developer would make the world of a difference.

1:35:01

And then I got in, John: whoo. Elaine: that essay,

1:35:06

John: I feel as though no, very little percentage of applicants come through

1:35:12

with like a thesis paper that long

1:35:14

that in depth about the curriculum.

1:35:16

I'm curious. Do you remember back then, what the percentage was?

1:35:21

Do you kind of remember off, top ballpark figure?

1:35:24

Elaine: Off the top of my head. I don't know the exact number, but it was less than 5%.

1:35:30

Yeah. John: Damn. Elaine: this was looking at data in the 2010s.

1:35:34

John: Yeah. Yeah. Elaine: Yeah. Yeah.

1:35:38

And when we were writing our paper, Gamergate had

1:35:41

started and all of that stuff. So there was a lot of data that we were able to use in thesis paper.

1:35:47

but that literally was what motivated me.

1:35:50

I just wanted to make a difference. I wanted to be Puerto Rican game designer, developer making a

1:35:57

difference where it counted and.

1:35:59

I dunno. How long has it been now? Eight years.

1:36:01

Eight years later. 11 years later here I am.

1:36:04

I'm again, designer at a studio.

1:36:08

Yeah. So it's been a while.

1:36:10

The ride is, it took a lot of convincing from my parents

1:36:13

because they didn't understand it. John: my mom

1:36:16

Elaine: why are you not majoring in engineering going to pre-med?

1:36:21

to be a gamer? That's John: Yeah. Elaine: I was like, I'm not going to be a professional gamer dad.

1:36:27

Like, going to be a developer designer.

1:36:30

I did not click John: Uh, Elaine: until, they came to my graduation and I had the diploma that

1:36:35

said in interactive media and games.

1:36:38

feel like it didn't click until then John: yeah, sure, absolutely.

1:36:42

Elaine: what? I think she's going to be okay. She has a diploma.

1:36:46

John: And, and, and a graduate diploma at that.

1:36:48

Elaine: Yes. I'm the first in my family, who has a master's degree.

1:36:53

John: Shout out. I was feeling myself in the first,

1:36:56

Elaine: Okay John: my, on the DSI to, with a bachelor's, but Hey, got

1:36:59

a master that's something that was always daunting to me.

1:37:02

Right. Like just the amount of research that goes into that damn

1:37:05

thesis at the end of it all. Elaine: I was lucky.

1:37:07

Cause at USC, we did not have to write a paper.

1:37:10

We had to make a game for our thesis.

1:37:12

John: Uh, okay. Much, Much, cooler.

1:37:15

Elaine: much cooler. but it was a three-year program compared to every other

1:37:20

program that's only two years. So it was longer and more money.

1:37:24

So it has this pros and cons, right?

1:37:27

Like at anything? John: Do you still have that game?

1:37:29

Is it like, does it run, Elaine: it runs, but it's really got, got, like, I wouldn't recommend it.

1:37:36

who I was at 25, 26 years old is

1:37:39

very different to who I am today. So

1:37:42

John: Hey. Elaine: the game definitely doesn't speak to who I am as

1:37:45

a designer and a person now,

1:37:47

John: For sure. Yeah. I mean, I'll own it, right.

1:37:51

It's meant to give us something to talk about when we're interviewing

1:37:55

at companies with zero experience.

1:37:57

Right. Like when what it takes to make a game,

1:38:01

Elaine: Yeah. John: that conversation flowing, right. To just assess how minded you are, what types of ideas are you bringing?

1:38:10

And can we train you and will you, accept learning on the job

1:38:14

Elaine: Yep. And Yeah. I think that's a breast lane sign me and That's where I am today.

1:38:19

so John: Yeah. Elaine: be anywhere happier.

1:38:22

I feel like it's the perfect fit for me. That's what, uh, some friends have said they're like lean like the

1:38:26

perfect company for you and what you believe in it was like ordained,

1:38:31

John: Uh huh. Elaine: destiny, really to be there's like, oh, thanks.

1:38:35

Y'all really, I really struggled for a long time to find a place to belong and a place

1:38:41

where I could grow and up in my, not only my professional career, but as a person,

1:38:48

you know what I mean? John: Yeah, I can't wait to see what you guys pop out, come up with

1:38:52

definitely want to bring you back, see how it's going in a year from now.

1:38:55

We're going to the MMO. I hope that whenever the hell I can travel back home to see my family,

1:39:00

that I can check out brass line or at least like have lunch with some of the

1:39:05

people, see the studio, whatever is Elaine: Yeah.

1:39:07

Hell yeah. John: I'll take a let's get into the lightning round if you are ready.

1:39:13

Elaine: I am ready. John: All right, mama. No what is the last game that you finished?

1:39:18

Elaine: Last year I finished was resident evils village.

1:39:21

, John: what would you rate it? Elaine: If I were to give it a score at a 10, to be honest, I given like a seven.

1:39:27

John: okay. Okay. Could be better room

1:39:30

for improvement. Elaine: but it's not that it was a bad game.

1:39:33

It's just as a game designer. Now I'm just super analytical about everything that I play

1:39:40

and I just dissect the crap out of everything.

1:39:42

So it's just my game designer perspective.

1:39:45

There's a lot of flaws. John: which affects your enjoyment for

1:39:49

sure. Elaine: really, really, does. Yeah. John: What is one thing you would have changed or would've liked to have seen

1:39:56

done differently out of curiosity, up.

1:39:59

Elaine: of the things that I did not like was the pacing of the game.

1:40:03

John: Um, Elaine: if you were to play, the game is divided into essentially four zones.

1:40:10

first and the fourth zone are light.

1:40:12

I feel like much more thought out they're bigger.

1:40:15

Like lot more content was weaved into it yes, but the second

1:40:19

zone was like super quick. Like, it felt Like, there was no substance.

1:40:23

It was like PAF, Stover. it was so short and like the boss fight like legit wasn't you in a boss fight.

1:40:29

You look for something a few times and then you stab it and then you're done.

1:40:34

just like what anti-climactic I was

1:40:36

John: yeah, yeah Elaine: mad.

1:40:39

. John: is your favorite franchise or a game?

1:40:44

Elaine: My favorite franchises, legend of Zelda

1:40:47

franchise. And my favorite game of all time will be Ocarina of time.

1:40:53

John: Oh, that's good. That's the right one. That's an internal 64 1.

1:40:56

Absolutely. Ah, that's such a special one.

1:40:59

Elaine: I definitely have to say that Ocarina of time has influenced

1:41:02

me a lot as a game designer. I grab a lot from the design of old green of time

1:41:09

John: all good things, right? Like level design,

1:41:11

Elaine: ramping up a skills. John: progression.

1:41:15

Pacing, Elaine: Yes. John: character development, right?

1:41:18

Like even the, even though, like, I remember it was all like story and not

1:41:22

that much of it, but they have the benefit of having the same story every time.

1:41:27

Right. Like warrior awakens Elaine: Yeah.

1:41:29

John: to save the princess who can like stop darkness and evil.

1:41:34

Elaine: Yeah. One of the things I think that is most influential, that I have spoken to a lot

1:41:38

of game designers and developers about, I loved about Korean of time is the way that

1:41:42

in each level that you go to you learn, like a new weapon or an armor something,

1:41:49

but there are a set of mechanics that you are taught throughout the dungeon.

1:41:55

And at the end, in the epic boss fight, you need to combine all those skillsets

1:42:02

things that you learned throughout the dungeon. You combine them all to defeat the boss.

1:42:07

And to me, that is so super smart.

1:42:10

John: At its best, any mechanic that you give a player, you do your best to

1:42:15

teach it to them as quick as possible.

1:42:18

And then just challenge them over and over and over like all

1:42:20

the different ways you can use Elaine: Exactly.

1:42:23

John: And to be fair, it's kinda cheap.

1:42:26

But when you have an entire dungeon dedicated to this one thing that

1:42:30

you now have fucking awesome.

1:42:32

Right? Like you, you Elaine: Yes. John: the time, like getting to the thing, getting to the big chest with the key,

1:42:37

Elaine: Yes. John: and then once you have it, you're like fucking up that dungeon

1:42:41

left around like, oh yeah, I Elaine: Yeah John: over there and I can cross over the thing and I could burn the thing.

1:42:46

And just when you feel like a badass, then you got the boss

1:42:50

at the end waiting for you. Right. Like Elaine: Yep,

1:42:52

John: necessitates the new tool.

1:42:54

And, it's just all nicely packaged, right?

1:42:57

Like it's simple. But getting to that simplicity is a lot of hard work and iteration.

1:43:03

Right. And Elaine: Right. John: those Nintendo motherfuckers are so good at.

1:43:07

Elaine: They really, really are. Like, they're just, there's something about their process

1:43:12

that I need to figure out what is it that they

1:43:15

do again, that Polish really?

1:43:19

Because it feels like a lot of thought was put into things and

1:43:22

the way that they were created. John: What is the last book that you read?

1:43:27

Elaine: The last book that I read was called.

1:43:32

design and play a detailed approach to iterative game design.

1:43:37

So it's a book by Coleen Macklin and John Sharp.

1:43:41

And know Colleen is a professor at NYU game center.

1:43:46

John: I bet that shit is going in my car.

1:43:49

Elaine: Yeah. So I read that one. It was pretty good.

1:43:52

was a little wordy. So if folks out there who don't like super wordy,

1:43:57

books, John: Written by Elaine: it was good Yes.

1:44:01

But it was pretty good in breaking down some game design concepts and then

1:44:05

going in on iteration the way that you iterate properly on certain things.

1:44:11

John: Okay. I got to check it out. Yeah. Because putting some of these things to words and stepping

1:44:17

someone through challenging.

1:44:19

I find, so it's always interesting to see how people

1:44:22

have approached breaking it down. Thanks for Elaine: so I enjoyed it.

1:44:25

You're welcome. I like to read a lot of, game design books just to keep myself up to date

1:44:30

on what other people are thinking

1:44:32

I mean, I always tell people, Hey, like doctors have to renew their

1:44:36

licenses every certain amount of time.

1:44:39

Like, why shouldn't we also do the same

1:44:42

thing? And we're even just refreshing ourselves on like, what are the fundamentals of game

1:44:47

design or game developing and what is the difference between good and bad design?

1:44:52

Like all of that is super informative. you don't waste anything by just refreshing,

1:44:57

um, all that knowledge. John: Yeah, to your point earlier, too, you mentioned how much you love game jams.

1:45:02

Game gyms are a great tool to connect with other people, try different mechanics

1:45:07

that you've seen other games, see what it might take to put those together.

1:45:10

And I like too, that it lets you even flex other muscles.

1:45:13

I'm going to be the artist or the audio person or the programmer, even though

1:45:18

I would never dare do this for my real Elaine: Right?

1:45:21

Exactly. John: what is the thing that you enjoy the most about what you do?

1:45:26

Elaine: I love researching.

1:45:30

my favorite part of what I do, because no matter what type of design I'm working on,

1:45:36

can always do like a comparative analysis.

1:45:39

So I can play other games that have that feature or have a similar

1:45:43

mechanic or a similar system. And I can compare and contrast and get inspired by and just analyze and

1:45:50

critique lot of games and things.

1:45:52

And then I can do a little bit of digging specifically into

1:45:55

whatever project I'm working on. So I love doing that I really lived.

1:46:00

John: That is one of the many fun parts of the job, right?

1:46:02

Is the excuse to go play some games that you might not have

1:46:06

played, been meaning to play or has been recommended to you because.

1:46:12

Similar themes, similar mechanics okay.

1:46:15

I guess I'll go play some games now, you know?

1:46:18

Elaine: Right, exactly. And it's like games that I had the time to play and I can actually to play them.

1:46:24

And I always recommend to students or young game designers, you don't need to

1:46:30

play the full game through to understand how it was designed or how it works.

1:46:36

A good two, three hours will be in a.

1:46:39

To understand the systems and how they weave together.

1:46:41

What's the game loop. That's a pretty good standard time.

1:46:46

John: Yeah, Have you a little notebook or whatever take notes every step of the way.

1:46:51

Elaine: I just started a brass line.

1:46:53

This is my third week. Right. And there was a lot of documentation that I had to catch up on.

1:46:58

Right. And I can tell you every single document that I read, have notes on my game design,

1:47:06

John: the, wow.

1:47:09

Elaine: helps me to write things down. It helps me remember and absorb information,

1:47:13

John: Yeah, Elaine: but also if I just read something, I'm not gonna absorb all

1:47:17

the, information, you know what I mean?

1:47:19

Like I can easily sure go through like a 10 page document

1:47:23

and be like, okay, I read it. John: yeah. Elaine: I actually understand and remember anything that I just read?

1:47:29

So I literally took copious notes, every single document that I,

1:47:34

John: Uh, he's such a good student. Elaine: a lot.

1:47:37

John: That's good. It keeps designers happy when people read their documentation.

1:47:42

Elaine: It really does, but it's good to be on the same page.

1:47:44

John: Absolutely. Elaine: that way I don't have to be like, well, are we going to have this feature?

1:47:49

Like, what is the direction of X, Y, Z?

1:47:51

And like, don't have to waste people's time because I read

1:47:55

and I I'm on the same page. And I can literally just start designing right away.

1:48:00

John: yup. Elaine: to do that. I already started designing now on my third week of

1:48:04

being in John: it's got a feel good.

1:48:06

Elaine: it does feel good. Yeah. But John: Hm. Elaine: because I took the time to read all the documents.

1:48:11

And now that I read everything I'm, caught up.

1:48:14

Now I can research on features that I have been assigned

1:48:18

John: Okay. Elaine: and go out and play games that have those similar

1:48:21

features and be like, Okay. what is it that we want to do?

1:48:25

What has been called out already and all the previous documents

1:48:29

what can I bring that's new,

1:48:31

you know? really has thought off yet or something that will set our game

1:48:36

apart from the competition, quote, unquote, John: man.

1:48:38

Try to break new ground or make some and match some things that

1:48:43

Elaine: exactly. John: been done before in that job.

1:48:46

Elaine: Or things that have been done in like a first person game.

1:48:49

And it's common first person, but have not really been adopted to like an MMO,

1:48:54

things John: What are common tools that you work with in your day to day?

1:48:59

Elaine: So something that I like to use, cause I really hate writing and then

1:49:03

people don't read, okay, people don't John: Nope.

1:49:06

Yep. Elaine: just said it like designers get really happy if you're either a document.

1:49:10

I like making collages. John: Ooh, very visual, huh?

1:49:14

Hmm. Elaine: like references, screenshots, even like links to YouTube videos and

1:49:18

stuff, that I could really call out on the things that I'm talking about.

1:49:22

And then I described them and like little boxes like, kind

1:49:25

of like digital post-it notes. So I use a software called pure ref.

1:49:30

that allows me to make a call a collage.

1:49:32

I use Pinterest to like put up all my pictures.

1:49:37

John: sounds like. Elaine: and then what else I do use like, like slides sometimes it's

1:49:43

better to make like a PowerPoint John: Yeah.

1:49:46

Elaine: explain something versus a two page three page document

1:49:50

John: Yep. There's Elaine: and I've John: and

1:49:54

Elaine: Yes. John: you very sequentially, right?

1:49:57

Like start here, then build on it, then build on it, then build on it.

1:50:01

Right. Elaine: Right, John: It's easy. for people to follow because it's

1:50:05

Elaine: right. Exactly. John: Um,

1:50:07

Elaine: like a lot of people respond better to visuals.

1:50:10

Um, rather than texts doesn't matter if you're a designer,

1:50:13

an executive, a programmer, everybody just really likes visuals

1:50:18

John: yeah, Elaine: texts. John: Yup.

1:50:21

Elaine: So that's what I'm, I've been trying to do lately.

1:50:24

John: That's a great call. Nobody is going to love your document as much as you do,

1:50:29

Elaine: Yes. John: the information still has to get out there.

1:50:32

And you can't trust that everybody's going to go through

1:50:36

everything with a fine tooth comb, Elaine: Right.

1:50:39

John: you can at least hold them accountable to be like, yo, I sat you there.

1:50:43

I stayed into your eyes. I presented you.

1:50:45

The thing and Elaine: and his Like um, here's the gist of what I'm trying to present, but, what I'm

1:50:51

going to actually start doing now. So I made that, like I made a collage, gave a gist of information

1:50:57

now I'm going to go into a proper document bring all that stuff

1:51:01

into Right. John: deeper.

1:51:03

Elaine: want to have multiple options. So like, if you are an artist or a program or whatever, can look at the, PowerPoint

1:51:11

and be on the same page as if you were to read the document, you know, but

1:51:16

the document just provides a little bit more detailed, a little bit more

1:51:19

granular, granular in certain areas where, for example, if we were to

1:51:24

pitch to executives or may be, they may want to read that document to

1:51:28

see your head at, is it really?

1:51:32

That you're, what's your intent and purpose with this,

1:51:35

John: important, right. To the high level to establish, some common vocabulary.

1:51:39

And Elaine: right. John: can go deeper for the people that are going to be very dependent

1:51:43

on those systems or mechanics or story, or what have you right to go.

1:51:48

Oh, Elaine: okay. John: That's how I got to hook in. Or got to sit with you and meet about this thing

1:51:52

Elaine: Right. Exactly. So that's what I have learned and I really enjoy it.

1:51:56

thing that I like to do is a lot of a UX design.

1:51:59

so even though I'm not a UI artist or a UX designer, I really enjoy it.

1:52:03

And I find it valuable. So I do like to create wireframes and things

1:52:08

when I have the opportunity to, I took a few courses online on UX.

1:52:13

and now I know like basics like fundamentals

1:52:17

John: Yeah. Elaine: create a wire frame and being like, okay, let's say we wanted

1:52:21

to come up with some type of menu.

1:52:24

For whatever reason can put something together and I could have it react

1:52:28

on clicks and things like that. using something like Adobe XD, InVision, Figma,

1:52:35

For example, in beyond blue, the game that I worked on at Elan,

1:52:39

John: That's your first game, huh? Elaine: my first like full professional fifth

1:52:43

John: Yeah. Elaine: So in that, when a post release, I design photo mode for it.

1:52:48

how did I do that? We'll I'll use envision, which like a UI UX software.

1:52:54

mocked up, what would different types of menus look like for photo mode?

1:52:58

do we anchor it on the left or on the right?

1:53:00

What is it going to look like on console and PC versus iOS?

1:53:04

we, were multi-platform so how is that going to look like and how are the

1:53:09

direction is going to be different? Right? you know, like a mouse click is a little bit different and on iOS, cause the

1:53:13

screen is much, much smaller we may have to do do things a little bit different.

1:53:18

all of that concept thing in UX, design myself,

1:53:22

um, almost softwares and then we shifted and I was really

1:53:25

happy cause people liked it and John: you got on all the platforms and

1:53:29

Hey, I got some awards to people called out like the feeling, I guess,

1:53:33

right in, at the end of the day, if you can make somebody feel something

1:53:37

from something you made, right. That's a huge win

1:53:40

Elaine: Yep. So I was really happy. I was able to work on that and I learned a lot too.

1:53:44

John: you never forget your first and then now you're onto bigger and better things.

1:53:49

Is there anywhere that people can connect with you, reach out

1:53:54

to you what you're working on?

1:53:56

anything like that? Elaine: I'm mostly active on Twitter.

1:53:59

and I check my DMS and my mentions every day.

1:54:03

So if there's any like junior or young game designers and developers or people

1:54:08

who want to get into the industry or people who would like to know

1:54:11

specifically about some things that? I have done or whatever it may be, that would be the best avenue to contact me.

1:54:18

my Twitter handle is Tula test six and tastic like fantastic.

1:54:23

So that's pretty much my handle on All my social.

1:54:26

So including discord, I'm in the Lennox in gaming server as a staff member.

1:54:31

So if people do ask me for whatever reason I do respond,

1:54:35

John: All right. Elaine: Twitter I also respond very quickly to emails.

1:54:41

So my personal email is [email protected].

1:54:46

you can actually go to my portfolio.

1:54:48

Elaine Ms. Dot com and the contact will have like a, a form that you can fill out.

1:54:55

And it goes straight to my email. John: That's awesome. is brass line hiring?

1:54:59

Elaine: Yes. Breslin is hiring for a bunch of positions.

1:55:02

And I think right now we're looking at a lot of programmer and technical positions.

1:55:06

So if you are interested in any of that and maybe even a few

1:55:10

art positions, but I'm not sure John: Okay.

1:55:12

Elaine: me on that, John: Check the website. Elaine: yes.

1:55:15

Check the website. to see what we have available, because we are hiring and our team is amazing.

1:55:20

I cannot about it enough.

1:55:22

Everybody is super kind, inclusive, mindful of like your mental health

1:55:27

and like your personal life. So Yeah,

1:55:30

place to work. And the project is pretty, pretty dope.

1:55:32

So. John: that's key, man. If the people a good, the project is good and the pay is good.

1:55:38

Then this is a, this is a winner in my book.

1:55:43

Fantastic. And don't say, I'll share that link as well.

1:55:46

So that's breath line, entertainment.com/careers.

1:55:49

That'll be in the show notes. And finally, last question of day, and then you can go

1:55:55

about the rest of your evening. Who do you nominate to fall out of the play area?

1:56:01

If you feel so inclined, Elaine: I nominate my good friend tele game designer.

1:56:06

Sandra hunting men see is I came to center and one of my good friends

1:56:12

been very excited to see once I moved to New York city again.

1:56:17

John: shout out to Sandra. She was also on the Latin X game festival panel that we did the

1:56:24

Elaine: Yes. John: panel. So that'll be cool to catch up with her.

1:56:26

See what she's been up to Elaine: Yeah she She's Awesome

1:56:30

She's good people. John: when I hit the heck.

1:56:32

Elaine: Yeah. John: you so much, Elaine.

1:56:35

Is there any last words before we wrap this up?

1:56:38

Elaine: You're welcome. No, thank you so much for having me and letting me talk a lot.

1:56:43

I'm happy that you gave me a space in the time.

1:56:46

And I hope that folks who listened, were able to grab just a little something to

1:56:51

take with them and apply to their lives.

1:56:53

And yeah. yes, you're welcome.

1:57:03

My grandmother used to say? that all the time. Bye.

1:57:10

John: what a brave soul, what a class act, what a creative spirit,

1:57:15

the next generation in this industry is looking mighty, mighty bright.

1:57:20

I really love some of the things she talked about there, where you can kind

1:57:24

of see the timing was everything right.

1:57:26

She was looking for work for awhile and she found her dream one.

1:57:30

I know a lot of us loose patients when we want something.

1:57:33

We want it here now. And her story is a Testament to.

1:57:38

Good things coming to those who wait.

1:57:40

Another thing that's essential for us is to stand up for our

1:57:44

teammates and, call out whenever anybody's coming out of their face.

1:57:48

She spent way too long in a toxic culture and environment that was allowed to

1:57:53

persist by the leadership over there.

1:57:55

And I'm so happy that she was able to escape that.

1:57:59

I am going to hold her to her word of giving me a tour of breast line.

1:58:04

Whenever the heck I get back home. Which to be honest with this damn Omicron variant, uh, I think me and

1:58:11

the rest of the Diaz clan are going to hunker down and stay in isolation.

1:58:14

And we'll just catch up with everybody virtually until things

1:58:17

get a little bit more under control.

1:58:20

definitely take down some negotiation tactics, right?

1:58:23

Whenever you're looking to make a jump. If you could line up a bunch of offers, That just kind of makes

1:58:27

you have a stronger bargaining position to get yourself the best

1:58:30

compensation for your time and skills.

1:58:34

another gym was her resume, right? Like the difference it can make when you change your resume or

1:58:39

able to add new skills to it. Right. All these are great tips of finding work when you're looking

1:58:44

for opportunity out there. On the next episode of out of play area, episode number 23,

1:58:50

debuting in a couple of weeks. We are going to sit down with Johnny Wu, a QA director at riot games.

1:58:57

Who's been in this industry for a long time.

1:59:01

Coming through QA up and down.

1:59:03

He was a development director at respond on apex legends.

1:59:07

He was the QA director for king.

1:59:10

Before that he was at SINGA and he's got a lot of tales and

1:59:15

experience to share with you all. make sure to follow us so that you don't miss out on that episode.

1:59:20

Thank you for listening, Deb. If you found this episode informative, I ask that you pay a link forward to

1:59:25

a developer to help grow our listener.

1:59:28

If you're a game developer with a story you think could help a fellow dev

1:59:31

out, please go to out of play area.com and click on the Calendly link at

1:59:36

the top to meet up, please make sure you get approval from your manager

1:59:39

or studios, PR HR team beforehand.

1:59:42

Out of play area, the game developers, podcasts releases, new episodes every

1:59:47

other Monday on all the major players, including Spotify, apple, and Google.

1:59:51

Please make sure to follow us, to see what developer falls out of the play area.

1:59:55

Next time. I'm your host John Diaz until next time devs stay strong.

2:00:00

Stay true. Stay dangerous.

2:00:03

Mega ran. Bring them home.